 Welcome Preeti. It's great that you're here. You are the chief program coordinator at Toxics Link. And Preeti has been campaigning on the issues of waste and chemicals for more than a decade with special focus on e-waste, plastic and urban hot spots. And her expertise in research and policy advocacy is well recognized. She has researched, written and presented about issues ranging from e-waste and biomedical waste to industrial pollution from mercury to plastics. So she has an in-depth understanding of the informal recycling space and has written about different models to integrate them in the emerging scenarios of waste management. She has authored many publications on some of these issues and has been widely quoted in regional, national and international media. And today she will speak to us about the environmental and social impacts of dying repair culture in developing countries. Yeah, very excited to hear your thoughts. And yeah, please go ahead. Thanks Katrin. So are you able to see my screen and hear me? Yes, perfectly. Thank you for this. And so I'll just, you know, kind of as you introduced, my work has been on primarily on sustainability and, you know, a lot of focus on circular economy. And that's how, you know, this whole idea about repair and repurposing has come into the discussion that we're having. And I think it's a pretty, I would say a strange phase in India where we are, and I'm sure this is true in not just in India and most developing countries where we're going through a phase where, you know, we've, we had a vibrant, you know, kind of repair culture, but, you know, things have changed. And it's also taking again a big circle and coming back in some way. So I think it's a strange phase that we are going through. But again, it needs a lot of support and nurturing. Just a second. Yeah, so if you look at traditionally, you know, India typically had no waste concept. So because of the prohibitive costs of goods and amenities, and also the fact that there was a lot of value attached, you know, to the material and which means that Indian homes were not even equipped with a dustbin for the longest period because there was nothing, nothing, no waste was being generated because everything was repaired, everything, I would say lasted for as long as possible. So we lived in that kind of culture. There was obviously a huge history of, you know, repair hubs and repair cultures, even, you know, markets which specialized in repair, every Indian household had, for example, a, you know, kind of a repair toolbox or a sewing kit, which meant whether it's clothes or small appliances, it got fixed at home itself. Even with the market-wise, as, you know, traditional repair, I was looking at the presentation earlier as well, and, you know, traditional repair for jewelry utensils, even, you know, cooking utensils, shoes, furniture, clothes, even, you know, the sharpening, knife sharpening, which was being spoken about in the last presentation. We had that pretty vibrant in terms that it would, you know, anytime you wanted, anytime you needed that was available. So you didn't really have to go somewhere. It was kind of also a lot of it was mobile, which meant it came to you, which made it very convenient. And there were families which, you know, kind of specialized in that, which meant the skills got passed on from one generation to the other. So, you know, the same families got into repair of the same objects year after year, which meant there was a whole legacy, you know, of experience as well, which was getting passed on. If you look at, you know, some places like Northern India, which is Kashmir, which is known as also Switzerland of India, there's a huge, you know, culture or there was a huge culture of Rafugars, which are basically people who meant clothes. And, you know, there's a saying there that, you know, only they could identify. Actually, there was, you know, traditionally, since they were tax levied on a full, for example, a shawl, if you wanted to, you know, manufacture and sell it, there was a huge tax that it attracted. And that's the reason why what they did was make it to do smaller pieces, make it in four small pieces, a shawl where that it did not attract that tax. And then the Rafugars would join it. And, you know, it would be so seamless that one would never know that, you know, kind of there was any kind of mending which had happened. But, and that's why the saying that, you know, only a, only God or day knew Rafugars would know where the stitching was. So it was mended so seamlessly. This was kind of a, you know, kind of a, I would say, celebrated or revered job that, you know, they were doing a very, very important job because you were, you know, kind of had a huge economic benefits as well. So, you know, frugality, sharing, and I would say the craftsmanship like the Kashmir one, or, you know, a network of cobblers, tailors, mechanics, this kind of form the backbone of robust repair economy in India. So it was vibrant. I would say even, you know, a couple of decades back, you could see, you know, tailors like this sitting on roadside and, you know, kind of mending things, or you saw a line of cobblers like this, who were working and repairing your shoes. So anytime even if you're walking your shoe got broken, you know, it was within two minutes or five minutes of your walking, you would find some cobbler where you could get it repaired. You know, even if you wanted to repair your suitcases, you had, you know, kind of really vibrant markets where you could do that. So there was this whole, you know, if you look at huge gray markets which specialized in, you know, there were no formal markets as for the repair, but there was a huge, I would say informal economy and especially in the last decade or so because of the electronics being, you know, kind of entering the market so strongly and people owning electronics so strongly, the electronic market or electronic repair market also became huge. Fixing, you know, electronics is a huge economic scale business in India, but it's completely, you know, kind of a gray market because as I said, it's again peer to peer learning that means people within, you know, kind of communities they learned or passed on the skills and within their social network as well. They were obviously not in the clear, you know, kind of radar because they were not formal, they were completely informal and they had a lot of flexibility in operation, you know, they would shift places, they would repair anything, you know, there were a lot of flexibility in the kind of operations they had, but lately in last, I would say more so in the last decade, there's been huge changing, you know, kind of huge change in how people think, how people buy, how people consume. So yes, you know, unlike in a lot of, you know, western countries or developed countries, there's where this consumption was to a large extent, linear always. We didn't have in India such a linear cycle, but lately in last 10 years or so, you do see a lot of linear cycle where you, you know, kind of mind use discard. So that's the kind of, you know, kind of consumption pattern, which is, I would say, pretty much the dominant mindset currently as well, because, you know, cheap commodities are, you know, level on online portals or anywhere you want to go, the new objects are more attractive, much more cheaper to, you know, kind of repair and also the fact that, you know, the brand manufacturers are making products in a way that it could not be repaired, especially when we're talking about electronics. So the durability is lesser because this is a design for dump and, you know, kind of, which means that since also the spare parts are not available in a lot of cases, especially again, when we're talking about electronics, which meant that, you know, the repair wasn't easy, the repair was expensive, repair was difficult. And that's why, you know, kind of this whole thing of hands-on repair is slowly considered, you know, a vocation which is for uneducated. So these are not considered as a valued or a, you know, prized profession. It's all considered, you know, people who didn't do anything would get into this kind of repair. So that's the kind of mindset which is coming and that has led to, you know, kind of the repair culture going down or declining. You know, there was a study done by an organization in, within India. And if you see the responses here pretty encouraging, yes, people, you know, kind of, a lot of people who are discarding, you know, even three or five year old devices, it's mainly because there is, you know, there are two primary reasons if you see. One is the cost of getting repaired, which is, you know, expensive than getting new material. And the second bit is, you know, kind of the problems related to, you know, convenience or, you know, kind of, you know, comfortable repair service availability. So that's also something which is, you know, a very, very difficult option. And that's the reason why people are not really opting for, you know, kind of repair. You see the last slide where people have decided to replace even whiteboards or appliances, which is, within five years, the primary reason has been, you know, 48% if you see, the reason has been, you know, kind of, that the cost of getting the repair was more than buying new material. So if you look at the kind of response, even with the repair people, you see, you know, most people are finding a difficult repair, you know, kind of society or repair, you know, craftsmen find it difficult because now they are not able to get parts, it's, you know, within the networks as well. It is very difficult, even for me, for example, I have tried to repair my music system, and I've always found that, you know, a couple of people whom I've approached, they said that there are no spare parts of it available. So I think that's become a big part, especially when we're talking about electronics, because people are not really willing, you know, the companies are not supplying the spare parts and are killing the repair market as such. So obviously it's completely an unsustainable approach. There's a huge wage generation. And then there is loss of resource and also loss of livelihood. So those are, you know, kind of key, you know, kind of problems emanating from this unsustainable approach. But there's a huge debate between frugality versus aspiration. Yes, there is a section which believes in frugality and, you know, the frugal leaving. But there's a huge, I would say, growing middle class population, which is aspirational, they are aspiring for new things, bigger things, modern things. And that's where, you know, kind of this whole repair culture is, you know, kind of slowly, I would say, reducing and dying down. But again, especially, I would, you know, kind of focus on the environmental impact of it. And when we're looking at electronics, there is obviously loss of precious metals like gold, silver, palladium, copper, zinc, nickel, because it's all dumped and tried to recycle. But even recycling technology is not really so robust in India. And that's why the reuse bit becomes very important because when we talk about e-waste recycling areas, when the informal sector, the whole main crux sometime back was repurposing or cannibalizing, you know, components which could be used further for repairing other objects. And that's something which is, you know, kind of since there's no demand or reducing demands dying down, which leads to, you know, kind of pollution, open burning of a lot of materials which are not treated, emissions of chemicals like dioxins and heavy metals. And there's a residual waste which gets dumped, which leads to uncontrolled acid leaching, spells, process wastewater and service water run up. So, you know, a lot of environment damage, but a lot of social damage as well. You look at a lot of these areas where, you know, since the reuse culture is dying, recycling is, you know, kind of using women and children. And there's disproportionate sharing of gains because people, you know, traders make money, but not really the workers. And, you know, a lot of vulnerable population, migrant population get impacted by this kind of activity. So what you see in pictures is, you know, a mix of a lot of repair versus, you know, recycling as well. So these are, you know, kind of hubs in the capital of India where a lot of, you know, if you see hard drives being, you know, kind of separated and at times, you know, these pictures are a little old and at that times a lot of them were testing these hard drives and seeing, you know, which visions are working, not working. And then, you know, those where the working ones were separated to be sold. But, you know, increasingly they're being broken down and, you know, kind of recycled and not really repaired. You know, you see CRT, which has kind of died a slow death, which means that no longer the CRT could be used to make a newer CRT or, you know, kind of TV screens cannot be converted into a computer screen. Earlier, that's what was happening that, you know, the TVs became old, they became computer screens. And that's something which is now, you know, kind of completely redundant and you see CRT monitors being broken down here for recycling. A lot of burning operations, children involved, and you could see the kind of, you know, lack of any protective equipment. So these are lead soldering being melted to sept components and these are lead fumes if, you know, coming out, but you see a child without any precaution, any, you know, kind of safety guard working in these informal sector. Again, pictures of e-waste recycling. So there is a lot of obviously waste dump recycling, which results from unsustainable use and, you know, slow death of repair culture. But the positive note, there is some bit of return. It is still, you know, kind of, I would say, not sure that's a passing trend or it's a very, you know, because it has more, as more a niche market rather than, you know, kind of a common repair growth. Repair has returned, but that's returned as a niche market. And that's why it is there's a worry whether this is only a passing trend or it is here to stay. But the positive, I would say, a beginning which is government is planning to bring in a right to repair and framework. But again, the problem is that's completely focused on electronics and nothing else, which means the other repairs are not being, you know, kind of promoted. This is mainly looking at, you know, these farming equipment, mobile phone tablets and consumer durables. These have been pretty much listed out. The other repair cultures are not being promoted or not even being spoken about. There is some bit of, you know, reinvention of some of these craftsmen because there was a huge availability of, you know, kind of skilled labor force. And as I said, this was cultural, culturally embedded. There was a tradition of recycling. What you've seen in the pictures again, the northern part of India, which I said Switzerland India, which is Kashmir, these, you know, shore repair people are now being, you know, kind of revived. These are almost to 230 years of old family tradition, which got passed on. There is some bit of problem in that as well, because these pretty much secreted so they don't really pass on the skills to outside people. So it stays within family. So that's another, you know, kind of a problem why the communities also which repair these are getting smaller. But there's a huge, obviously, potential in providing livelihood, especially since a lot of people are now considering, you know, kind of reviving their heirloom pieces, these have become, you know, kind of the oldest, you know, kind of a gold kind of a thing in the, you know, niche market is now in and that's the reason why some of these are now being traditionally, you know, kind of being revived by larger, you know, organization. You also see some, you know, some big cooperation getting into these, you know, you see some ads of some, you know, kind of services which are offered in India. So it's kind of tailoring services also alter or repair. And this is also big because a lot of online shopping, you know, the brands are also using this to counter a lot of return of, you know, ordered goods, because sometimes the fittings are not good. So people are actually providing the service of altering as well within these, you know, kind of online platforms as well. So that's one bit of growth where people, you know, have employed actually large huge, you know, cloth repairs man or mending, you know, kind of society. And that's what they are finding now business and they're, you know, they're, I would say livelihood has grown, grown quite a bit what they could earn in a month. Now they're able to earn 15 days. So that there is some bit of, you know, kind of growth in that side. So there is some bit of, as I said, again, it's a very niche market, which is going, and that's why it's very difficult to know whether it will survive. And that needs a very different kind of, I would say support. So yes, that's, you know, kind of for what I wanted to speak about, you know, obviously, there's environmental and loss of livelihood, which are key to this whole, you know, kind of dying repair culture. And that needs a lot of support. There are sporadic, I would say, efforts being made, but not really in a scale, which the country requires or you know, kind of the country has the possibility of. So I think that's something which, which will need a lot of, you know, work, both policy-wise, as well as, you know, changing people's knowledge and information and making change their consumption. Thank you so much. Thank you. Very interesting. Indeed, we already have a question in the chat on why exactly do you say that, yeah, how the introduction of electronics led to devaluing the repair culture also in the area of fabrics? Could you elaborate on that? Yeah, so the reason why I said that the culture of repair is going down, as I said, there is, you know, a growing middle class, there's a huge growing middle class, and that's very aspirational in nature. So it becomes very difficult or it is, you know, much more convenient or even economically very, I would say, cheaper for them to buy newer goods. And that middle class is now no longer repairing and no longer, you know, kind of, whether we're talking about fabrics or whether we're talking of electronics, they are no longer repairing because repairing is becoming very, very expensive. Even if I want to go and alter a piece of cloth, it's much more expensive. And that's why, you know, it's probably, you know, one third of buying a new cloth. And that's the reason why nobody wants to go and repair a cloth, but, you know, really buy a cloth. So, and that's the reason why I would say this whole culture is going down overall, because we are looking at an aspirational society which wants to buy more, which wants to consume more and not really, you know, kind of reuse or repair objects. I wouldn't say that it's, you know, electronic is connected with clothes, but it's an overall, I would say a culture which is kind of changing. Thank you. Any further questions? I really agree with some of the comments. Yes, minimalistic living obviously will help. It's a, you know, kind of a huge, you know, but it's completely, again, a different way of thinking. I think minimalistic behavior is something which a society which has consumed more or which has probably has, you know, kind of a lot of these facilities for many years can think of it in a very, very, I think, positive manner, but for a society which is developing in nature where there are paths of society within which have been deprived for a very, very long time, there it becomes very difficult. I'll just give you an example, though it's not really they connected with repair, but, you know, I also work on a lot of issues related to sustainable menstruation. And when we're talking to women in rural areas about, you know, using reusable pads, for example, reusable sanitary pads, they're like, you know, disposable pads are modern, they are aspiration, they want to use that they don't want to really use the reusable pad because they feel that's like, you know, going down or, you know, kind of they've never used disposable ever in the life. So for them it's going up using disposable item is going up. So I think that's the mindset that is, you know, kind of scary. And that's why I feel that minimalism becomes a bit of a problem. Again, I would say, you know, kind of this whole concept that you know, which is also, I think, taking shape in developed countries. And it's not yet obviously in India is about not, you know, non ownership. You know, do you want to really own things or do you want to, you know, kind of just lease things because once you lease things, then, you know, the repair becomes much more viable for the for the corporations as well. Right now they don't want to repair because they want to sell more products. But when this whole leasing concept comes in, but again, leasing concept or not owning something is a very, very big philosophical change that I don't want to own anything. So I think that kind of a society would take a huge, you know, kind of effort to change. It's not very easy. Yes, in richer areas, people are going back to reusable pads and reusable pads are also becoming popular in a niche market in India, as I would say, to people who've gone through that cycle of using disposable pads. And now, you know, one decided that reusable pads are probably more environment friendly and more sustainable. But for societies or for populations which have never used disposable pads, they feel that that's the way of being modern. And that's the way of, you know, growing up or, you know, becoming, you know, modern in the society. So I think it is a cycle. And that's why I said that we are in a very difficult phase of that cycle. Like the same as with bicycles, as Janet was pointing out. And Panda also had a question, whether you see like visible mending as a trend? Yes, I think, you know, the trend in terms of, you know, the repairs being invisible, yes, all of that is seen. Some of them, you know, the new trend of repair which is coming in is similar. But as I said, it's kind of right now in a niche and not really a common earlier, the trend which was there was a common man's trend, you know, it was like the rich people didn't want so much repair, but common man wanted repair. And, you know, they, they wanted to use things for as long as possible. Right now, there is a bit of role reversal, because the repair and everything is more restricted to, you know, kind of the rich, you know, out of the rich, you know, society and not really the middle class middle class doesn't want to. So there's a change in how it's coming back. But, you know, the type of repair or, you know, kind of those things are similar in nature. And, you know, kind of, this is more, you know, rich people trying to, I would say, carry their home pieces. And they don't want to, you know, kind of, they have things which are very, very expensive. And they want to, you know, kind of repair that now. But that's not, I would say similar for, you know, kind of 80, 90% of the population. So it's only, you know, kind of maybe the five or 10% of the population, which is looking at repair as a sustainable way of moving ahead, but not the rest. Thank you. Yes, indeed, fascinating presentation. Yeah, thank you, Piti. I think we can now move on.