 Welcome to our continuing coverage of general election 2018 we're here at Channel 17 Town Meeting television with Don Turner and Lieutenant Governor David Zuckerman and we will take your questions for the race for a Lieutenant Governor which is coming up on the 6th of November thank you both for joining us. Thank you very much. I failed to mention that you are a representative, right? Yes. Yes so you're both presently serving in the legislature and we're going to start with opening statements we have some questions that we've provided to the candidates but we also are very happy to take any questions that you have at 862-3966. Alright David Zuckerman please tell us why you're running and what qualifies you for the position of Lieutenant Governor. Well sure thank you. First it's been a pleasure and honor to serve for these past two years. I want to thank Vermonters for giving me that opportunity. I had served in the legislature for 14 years in the house and four years in the Senate including serving on the Natural Resources and Energy Committee, the Education Committee, the Ways and Means Committee and the Agriculture Committee at different times in those arenas. So I've worked in the legislature on a wide range of issues and really understand how the process works. As Lieutenant Governor I've had the honor and privilege to preside over the Senate and I've worked very hard to preside in that room much like local town meetings as the moderator making sure that the process does not get in the way of good policymaking. You have to make sure that the process flows, that everybody's heard, that the different ideas are presented fairly and it's been a real honor to do that. On top of that I've worked to be basically an ambassador around the state for the process of democracy reaching out to particularly young people but roadways as well because right now we're in a challenging time with respect to the sentiment people have with what's going on in Washington and to remind people how lucky we are in Vermont to really have folks who are good from different perspectives that are cordial and respectful as we have been in this campaign and I hope to get two more years to do it again. Thank you very much. Don Turner tell us why you're running. You have a minute and a half on what experience you bring to the position. So I'm Don Turner. I'm currently the town manager of the town of Milton but I'm a fourth generation Vermonter, a lifelong resident of Milton. I've been on the fire department for 36 years serving the last 14 years as fire chief but I also have served 13 years in the legislature and the last seven years I've been the House Republican leader or minority leader in the House. You know Vermont is a great place. We all choose to live here and I'm very grateful that I live here but I'll too often I hear and I've heard for the last three election cycles that it's too expensive to live in Vermont so even though it's a great state we've got to make it more affordable so I'm running to bring some balance and collaboration to Montpelier. I want to focus on what it costs to live here and I know that I can bring this to Montpelier with the experience that I have and that's why I'm seeking the position of lieutenant governor. Can I just ask you a question that's not on the list that comes to mind? Given that affordability is a concern do you support the a the governor's positions in this realm and the how he's worked with the legislature? Yeah I have supported the governor. I believe the governor took a firm stance when he was elected and he was he ran and was elected on it cost too much to live here. He refers to it as affordability. I fully support that and I've worked closely with him throughout the last two years to sustain budget vetoes to work with him on ways to make Vermont more affordable. So I do support the governor and I will work closely with the governor should I be elected to this position. David where do you fall on this question of affordability? What does that mean to you and is that a relevant issue in this case? Well it's an absolutely relevant issue and the reality is most people are struggling to pay their bills. There's different ways to look at that equation from the role of government. One is sort of sound by politics of no new taxes or has happened with the budget last year when all but 14 Republicans voted for the first time around. The governor vetoed the bill in order to put 30 or $50 for one time into people's pockets by reducing their property taxes. When I would argue ways and minimum wage which was another bill to governor vetoed and my opponent helped sustain that veto as well 50 cents an hour. 50 cents an hour would be a thousand dollars a year in the average Vermonters pocket. So if you work 40 hours a week I think you'd be far better off affordability wise with a thousand more dollars in your pocket if we had done that law than this one time 30 or 50 dollar property tax relief. So I think it's important when we hear these sound bites that feel good to really look at what they mean fundamentally. The vast majority of Vermonters support raising the minimum wage the vast majority of Vermonters support paid family leave. These are the family values issues that I think are relevant to that affordability discussion. You know and we and we do I do support raising the minimum wage and three years ago I did support that and everyone will get a 50 cent per hour raised this year if they are receiving minimum wage. So I believe that we should have a minimum wage and that every Vermonter that is making minimum wage will get a raise. I just want to make sure factually I think this year it just goes back to a cola which is not 50 cents. Well it has been 50 cents. It has been. And what we now have is a cola so that where you're struggling now is where you will continue to struggle going forward. Your cost of living will go up and your wages will go up at the same rate. The idea behind the minimum wage discussion was since working people have been falling farther and farther behind over the years many of us feel that we should give a little bit more than cola going forward. And I think that we should reduce the cost of living and the amount of money people are making will go further. If state government lives within its means then Vermonters will have more money in their pockets and they will feel the benefit of lower cost of living. So David are you bullish on the Vermon economy? What do you think about our economy and what do you think needs to be done to make a sustainable future for our children? Sure no doubt it's a real struggle out there for a lot of folks and I think one of the things that's important to talk about is context. Vermont's a rural state and rural counties in this country whether they're red or blue are struggling and we're right in that mix. We don't have the big city that many other rural states have to balance the economy the way that they do. Burlington and Chinden County are doing better but most of Vermont, southern Vermont, northeast kingdom are really struggling. I think where we have real opportunity and why I am bullish on our future is that we are in close proximity to incredible markets to our south. Southern New England, New York, New Jersey we could brand Vermont milk and get a better price for our product for our dairy farmers. We could expand broadband into rural areas and people could have good paying jobs working with clients down in the southern New England area where you can meet with them every few weeks for a couple days but live in Vermont, raise your children in a safe environment for some of the best rural schools in the country. We've historically heard a lot of beating up on our schools when in fact we have better rural schools than most anywhere else in the country and so I think if we sell what we have good schools, safe clean environment, safe environment for our families and the opportunity if we invest in broadband and in our rural agricultural economy we've got a very strong future ahead of us. Dawn what's your view on the economic prospects of Vermont and what do you what's your approach to sustainable future? So I agree I mean Vermont I think there's a bright future in Vermont but but if people keep believing because they can't afford to live here it makes it much more difficult and you know I believe that we need to expand the economic growth and David I think touched on it that you know Vermont is very different I mean there's 14 counties and there are very different what's good here in Burlington doesn't necessarily work in Chelsea or down in Dover or any other you know remote rural place so we've got a we've got to define our economy in a way that will work in different parts of the state so I don't think that we can just sit in Montpelier and say this is the way it's going to be for everybody because what's happening is is Chittenden County greater Burlington is driving there's a lot of growth here a lot of potential here but we have to focus on regular regulatory reform in a way that doesn't stifle growth in other parts of the state you know I believe Act 250 is a good law but we are stifling growth because people are using it to hijack the process you know that doesn't work we've got to create affordable housing all around the state not just in one part of the state you know and we also have to have health care competition we need affordable tuition both on higher education and we build people have to be able to afford childcare which is struggling people are struggling to pay their childcare so my approach is that one one bill doesn't work for the whole state so we've got to start looking at different parts of the state and look and regulate them in that manner can you give an example of when the Act 250 process was hijacked sure I can tell a good one that I'm sure many Vermonters are aware of it is the Walmart store in in St. Albans took 20 years and you know the process you know that they get to a certain point that it would be stalled because it'd be opponents and the whole reason it was being opposed was it was going to kill downtown St. Albans well today I was in St. Albans St. Albans is beautiful today because Walmart came and it allowed the economy in that area to grow it creates traffic for the downtown stores you we're seeing a prosperous St. Albans as a result of that project that development are there other reasons that St. Albans was prosperous well I would say there's a number of reasons there was a great effort at revitalizing the downtown with road and sidewalk work with investing in the community businesses that are in that main drag and frankly the proximity to Burlington if you look at other communities that have had similar scenarios to just simply a Walmart being the savior of the day that really hasn't occurred in some of the other communities around the state does Walmart help some people with low cost products no doubt but I don't think it's really fair to say that Walmart is somehow what revitalized Franklin County I would say a lot of investment center lay he deserves some credit for bringing a lot of border jobs up into that region of the state as well so I think it's like most things it's a combination of things it's not always sort of a simplistic answer that is that leads to these kinds of solutions or strong communities it's particularly the people of a community the small businesses of the community and the partnership between local and state government and businesses and nonprofits that really revitalize a community and and you need traffic if you don't have traffic you're not going to grow that small downtown businesses and I didn't intend or mean it to say that Walmart saved St. Albans I just think it's been prospering as a result part of that I will give you another example we have a industrial park in Milton we had a project developer come in wanted to build a truck sales facility he came in and went through the town process we're open for business we have the capacity in water sewer and all that had the land he's a he goes through the whole permitting process ready to get his permit the neighbor says I don't like your I don't like you next to my house appeals the permit takes him six more months we're at the end he finally had to buy the house because the only way he was going to get the landowner to stop appealing was to buy the house he ended up buying the house to get the project through which the town wanted it was in this it was in the regional plan it was it was a great project for our community and our tax base and yet here's an example where the pro active 50 process didn't work I mean it doesn't it wasn't intended for that in my opinion I want I just want to get back to this question about vital small centers population centers like the St. Albans I mean you've both traveled around this state and maybe Don you could say I mean if you don't have a Walmart in your town I understand your point about the traffic but what would you say to you know White River Junction which is starting revitalization or Springfield or these places you know what advice would you give them having been in Franklin County and seeing what happened in St. Albans you know it's a difficult question that you ask I don't have all the answers but I have been to some really neat places around Vermont this during this this campaign and Brattle Bros an example I think that that's really moving forward you know with the closing of Vermont Yankee you know a few years ago I remember the legislature was very dire what's gonna happen to that part of the state when Vermont Yankee closes and what's happened is there's been a team a partnership I think with lots of agencies lots of state agencies and sure senators have helped out but they're working on on ways to bring kids tying businesses to kids earlier in school they're using buildings that been abandoned for incubator space so I think there is hope around the state but we're gonna have to get creative and we're gonna have to use our tax dollars wisely invest in public partner public private partnerships that's what it's gonna take and you see that Wilmington I was there I never I don't think I've ever been to Wilmington before and that's a neat little downtown and it's just great to see those little downtown's but I don't think there's one answer for all I think what you got to do is look at him district by district by district and then have a plan that's a regulation that's adaptable to maybe Brattleboro versus White River Junction versus St. Albans or even the Northeast Kingdom when you're on the Connecticut River and you're competing with New Hampshire it's much more difficult than say St. Albans so I think we have to be very open to doing things differently in different parts of the state I agree the fair number of those points however as a state law you can't sort of cherry pick and have the law affect different people different parts of the state differently that's one of the both benefits and challenges of state laws I think where we can have some more different and targeted efforts is in our economic development resources and use those in those various ways and I think Don talked about the investment of the state and local community in Brattleboro and in other places so that's pretty important what I would say for a town that you mentioned for instance Springfield or White River Junction those are exactly the communities I was talking about earlier with respect to if you had really good broadband look what's happening at White River Junction with innovative creative ideas whether it's the Cartooning Institute there that's really brought some energy to that community broadband jobs if they're based in Springfield it you've been to Springfield beautiful old buildings from sort of the industrial age most of them are empty because they're brownfields we need to invest in doing the studies to find out what would it cost to retrofit those buildings because the owners don't you want to go near well first let's find out what the issues may be second if we have resources to help with those brownfield cleanups that would be an incredible place to live you could you know have stops shops on the first floor commercial centers or makerspace on the second floor and residences on the third or fourth floors you'd add affordable housing you'd rebuild a vibrant town and you'd be close to the interstates where again you could meet with those those clients and customers out of state into the south so I think there's a lot of opportunity the last thing I would say is our schools our rural schools are phenomenal relative to other schools around the country in rural areas and we need to make sure that they stay open that they thrive and I know there's a lot of challenges around Act 46 but a lot of the law was created to help save money on the overhead side so we can keep those schools open and I would add that what I think we really need to dig into is not just writing on a piece of paper a line of what taxes should be or what ratio should be because every unique town is different and that's up to the local school boards but look at what's driving the cost of education and that's social services and we do a lot of duplication of effort there between the agency of education and the agency of human services and I went to the governor and asked him about can we work together to save that money reduce duplication and create a better flow of service so that those kids and those families can do better can I just say what I mean I think David's point I was in Springfield last Wednesday and meeting with the economic development authority they love to do what David's saying unfortunately the people are leaving so to try to refurbish those old buildings is going to be challenging and a lot of Mar Brown fields so it's going to take some work between the state and the federal government but if we don't make it where people can afford to live here we're not going to have opportunities to do those types of projects that David referred to can you talk about education David I think laid out his view of Vermont's education you feel it's a good system and with so perhaps you could clarify your position on public education how do you think we're doing and what would you address the affordability of public education I do I think we have strong schools in Vermont I do my concern is though that the way we fund schools today it doesn't work for the students doesn't work for you the teachers and it's not working for the taxpayers you know we've we see students today the students are getting less and the taxpayers are paying more we can't continue to do that so we need to you know we did do a better job spending our education dollars starting with kids younger and going maybe into higher education we start doing that a little bit but we spend 1.7 billion dollars on essentially K through 12 we need to spread that out more that's my belief you mean up to college looking at how we spend we spend very little on our higher education institutions and students in Vermont compared to other states but my concern is is the outcomes that our students get are getting for those high cost per student dollars it doesn't equate and when we've got to do a better job like for example so so kids if you look at nationally if you look at Vermont's ranking on student outcomes yeah it's it's low to middle middle to low in the pack you mean like our math scores yeah scores across the education but but our cost per pupil is very high you know like number one or number two depending on which pole recent you know where you get the information so how do we do a better job doing that and keep our schools because we all know our schools are the heart and souls of our communities we know that and we don't want to see schools closing but we want to make sure students get good outcomes that's what I want to do I can I just ask you a question yeah why do you think a math score is a good outcome like do you think the outcomes we use for education should be examined well I think yes the answer is yes but I'm talking about the student all the the whole student experience and you know you know we can do test scores and all that and they don't look well but we've got in the state some schools that have five or six maybe eight kids you know that's that student is not getting the same experience that a student that may go to Browington or even Milton with the number of opportunities that are offered to those children those are the things that I'm talking about you know we need to find ways in our education system for efficiencies I think that we could keep more of these smaller schools open if we shared resources using technology have a teacher in one school but be teaching students all around maybe around the district those are things that I'm looking at and the other thing is is when students when we have a small district and they're losing kids we should have the agency of education going in and work with that school to determine how we're going to continue to move forward so the student has a great outcome experience and it's affordable we do a lot with technology and I think for specialized programming we should do that I don't think for the everyday classrooms we should move in that direction we've had a lot of discussions in the literature about school safety the number one proven scenario for making schools safer is having connections between teachers and students so they can really see face-to-face and watch as kids become more withdrawn or other issues that are happening in school so I don't want to over rely on technology to have the kids in the five room class five kid class not have a teacher in the room and have a screen talking to them it would be one of the things if I may to me those schools and I also have to point out some factual differences here from on is in the middle of the pack when you compare Vermont to other schools all across the country with those metrics and those scores whether people believe in them or not that's where we are but when you say we're not doing better for the money that's actually inaccurate because rural communities cost more to educate we don't have the urban area that other states have that average out their cost per pupil scenario so when you compare actually apples to apples we are getting more for our money than most of those other rural communities and we're having better outcomes so the idea of just simply saying I'm gonna find efficiency without being overly specific that means either cutting teachers which most schools and most parents and most people in the community have said don't do that they vote for their budgets we need to support the local communities who are voting for their schools voting for their community centers and keep those schools open knowing one thing I'd say is that we have some incredible independent schools and stuff around the state I think that we have to focus a lot on school choice and that should be part of the discussion as well as looking at how these independent schools are providing great experiences and outcomes for kids in Vermont thank you very much good evening you have a question for our candidates for lieutenant governor hi my name is John Cyple I have a question for both of them I'm wondering what you want to do about racism racism in Vermont like you have any plans great we have a question about dismantling institutional racism and how that could be done that I think might fit the question so why don't we start with that don okay so I think it's there's a lot of education that needs to happen around that I did support a bill that we passed this year on racism I also have been working in my local community Milton as I said I'm the town manager last year in Milton there was there's some real issues in the school school district so the school district worked together with the Milton inclusive diversity initiative a group local group and they are started offering a cold built a coalition which I as a town manager police chief librarian and rec director took part in because we know we need to educate this is not a school problem this is a community problem so I worked with that committee all last winter we brought in an educator to educate our staff and we will continue to do that on a regular basis going forward I am now meeting and we will continue meeting with the school the nonprofit and the town to go forward to start educating our community as a whole so I think education is the first step and there's gonna be a long process well a number of things as lieutenant governor we've already done a number of steps from our movie series showing movie 13th which talks a lot about the 13th amendment the constitution and how it moved slavery you know ended slavery but it also said you could basically have an indentured workforce in your prisons and what have we done with our military the prison industrial complex that we now have in this country and we have an overpopulated incarceration rate particularly a community of color in our state and also now exporting all the money to Mississippi which is wrong so we have issues of criminal injustice that need to be addressed we have as Don mentioned education is a huge piece but if you actually really look at it we need to survey our teachers and our administrators in our schools all across the state and work with them to improve the conditions in our schools because it really starts when we're young and we have a very high rate of detentions and suspensions disproportionate for the community of color so we have to look at why is that happening why do we already have these built-in biases whether it's in education whether it's in law enforcement and in each of ourselves as as white men we are privileged in our society that's the bottom line and not all the same but we have to be looking internally at what language we use and we have to model appropriately as well so it's everything from surveys and policies to individual actions that need to be addressed thank you so we're we have about six minutes left so I'm gonna let you both ask each other a question that you've just been dying to ask good go for it that you may or may not have had an opportunity to do it would be great to hear with questions that you have for each other actually a number of different instances and in your campaign you've made a point of talking about how the lieutenant governor has somehow been very partisan in the last couple years with really very little evidence to back that up the work I've done has been to really open the office and we've welcome a lot of people yet at the same time you've been the minority leader who turned votes away from supporting bills in a partisan manner to support the governor as opposed to the substance of the bills that people voted for unanimously for instance the budget with your question and speech sure so if you're gonna if you're gonna bring what you've been doing in this house into the lieutenant governor's office how are you proposing that's gonna be nonpartisan or less partisan when you've really shown tremendous partisanship that's a great question so I've my entire life built partnerships and focus on issues my thirty-plus years as a fire and rescue chief you're faced with all kinds of things the only way you do anything is to build partnerships I've in my time in the legislature in the last seven years as a leader have built relationships all through that body and I can continue to do that and I will focus on the issue and not not the party line I have not in my role as the House Republican leader uh... it was my job to bring the caucus together and to focus on issues that goals that they set and so on and I did that I think I uh... the team says that I've done okay and I worked hard on that but when you're in the position of uh... being presiding over the senate you focus on the issue build the team around that and then preside and go forward question for David David our Democratic state treasurer Beth Pierce has said that divesting the state pension from fossil fuels could be a disaster for Vermont the non-partisan economists that the legislative JFO said it could cost our pension fund one point eight billion in transaction costs plus another eight million annually if decreased performance do you support the fiscal year response to divest our state pension or do you stand with Democrat treasurer Beth Pierce and the non-partisan JFO in saying that divestment is too great a risk for our state employees and retirees well I greatly uh... support Beth Pierce by the way for reelection I think she's done a phenomenal job with our pensions across the board uh... I find it an interesting question when we had thirty million dollars to put into pensions uh... that again you you pushed against the budget on but I do support the discussion of divesting from fossil fuel companies uh... there have been actually many other studies that show uh... and many investment firms and companies who have shown much greater return having divested over those last ten years uh... more recently there may have been a shift in the last year or two because I had not heard that numbers that must be a more recent number uh... with our president who has fully uh... gone whole hog for fossil fuels and you've also received corporate contributions from fossil fuels so I can see why that all fits together for you but uh... we actually have to look at adjusting climate change we have to look at our individual actions our state policies how we can invest in our rural economy uh... and how our pensions could be invested and make more money as well as moving away from supporting the fossil fuel industry uh... so I do support that conversation so what's the best idea that you hadn't thought of that you heard on the campaign trail well I've heard from a number of people about affordable housing still being a great challenge uh... and obviously the legislature uh... don was a part of this uh... moved forward the the major housing bond issue uh... but I think there's still a tremendous shortcoming and shortfall in the resources to be put into affordable housing for homeowners so one piece is to I can't remember the name of it but basically to offer ten or even twenty thousand dollars to give folks a zero interest uh... loan that you pay back when you sell the house for perpetual affordability to help with the down payment to get people into homes I would also add to that uh... policies we have in place that actually implemented while I was in the legislature around uh... town centers and village centers and city centers that have reduced permitting for affordable housing and we could expand that uh... to really encourage growth in our town centers and more affordable housing thank you a minute and a half okay tell us your best idea uh... I'd be sure uh... it's it's in Brattleboro it's happening right now one of the things I've been talking about on the campaign is the lack of students uh... people going into the trades uh... for you know plumbing plumbers electricians and so on uh... it was very excited to hear in Brattleboro that uh... they have a program that's introducing kids uh... into the trades and in the benefits of taking up a trade uh... maybe besides going to college uh... and they're entered and they're uh... introducing them to employers at younger ages so six seventh and eighth grade versus waiting till they get into high school I think that's a great program I'm very excited about that and if I'm elected I will be trying to bring that all around the state well I want to thank you both so much for joining us um... obviously Vermont is a very intricate system and there are many ways that we can help improve the well-being of the people in the state and we have two gentlemen here who are intent on doing that Lieutenant Governor David Zuckerman is running for re-election and Don Turner who is a representative for Milton, the Milton manager, ten manager uh... and also is seeking election in that seat and Murray Goyma who is a Liberty Union candidate who did not appear with us this evening uh... is also in the on the ballot you'll find them on the ballot so don't forget to vote on November six and stay tuned here to channel seventeen for continuing coverage of general election twenty eighteen