 Hey everybody tonight. We're gonna debate is Steven Crowder innocent and before we get into our intro statements We are going to review some footage that's relevant to the discussion. So Grace you're ready with your screen share Yep, give me one second You see that Yeah, we can see that I see it. All right. Can you hear it? I just played a little bit of it Or can you hear it? Oh, I see I see I got it. I got it. I'm sorry about that You were not taking a car Because if you refuse to do white food things, then I will go pick up the grocery Steaks wood pellets my grill. I know it's not a reason How about you first So you're not taking a car you are not Okay, I can Feeling some constraints Listen to me. You want to walk out right now? Listen to me. I can't go to the gym. I can't go to my parents I can't call my friends. I can't go. I can't be home. You're gonna take the car and leave me here Just think of how boxed in you've made me. What do you need to pick up? I'll get it. I'll be back when I'm back No, that doesn't work either. You'll be back when you're back. It doesn't work either I understand the difference between one like being set to the second and you're going to be back Only way out of it It's the only way out of it. We're at an impact. You're going to be back. Good because you can't have any disorders Yeah, there you go. You throw your head you give up. So I don't You give up so easily. I just said the only way out of this is discipline or stuff. You said then we're gonna know we are Watch it watch it fucking watch it And I need some space we need to just talk a little bit I love you very much. I don't love you. That's the big problem I've never received love from you and the fact is when I go look, I need an ABCD No, but I love you more than life itself. Okay Put on some gloves. No, but I love you more than life itself. It's not fair. It's not fair and it's disingenuous Hillary, you're right. We're gonna have to become someone Day in and day out worthy of a life worth No matter the way Come on now You're not committed to anything you're not committed to anything You just said I love you Are you committing Are you committed enough to get the medication? All right, there we go now I'm back in so with that Context in play there if there isn't any other footage for us to review we will kick it into our Intro to statements here. So we'll kick it over to Grace to start I think there Okay, sure Abuse is an accusation that our society loves to hurl against men You can hear it in their voice when they say it abuse. He's an abuser. He's an abusive husband And who is the ultimate victim of this abuse a pregnant woman? This entire video is the perfect setup to take a man down. I Think something important for this debate is defining what abuse is The definition of abuse is to use something to bad effect or for bad purpose to misuse something And within relationships abuse is generally considered to mean treating either another another person with violence cruelty harm or force Holding someone accountable is not abuse an employer telling his employee to do better To be worthy to work for him is not abuse Telling someone that they need to have discipline and respect is not abuse a parent telling their kid to do better in school or in Sports is not abuse Getting frustrated and raising your voice is not abuse None of those qualify as treating another person with violence cruelty harm or force And nobody should bat an eye if anybody male or female says these kinds of things Nobody should be concerned if somebody asks another person to be disciplined and respectful But when a man corrects a woman even though our society our society Says they believe that men and women are equal and should be given equal treatment Suddenly the man is the abuser and the wife is the victim Hillary Crowder signed up for Stephen Crowder. She freely married him. No one doubts that he is a driven intense Engaged man. He drives his employees hard He drives himself hard but when his When his drive and his focus is turned on his wife and he also wants her to live up to the promises She freely made him to support him and to do her wifely duties as they both agreed as Christians He's deemed an abuser. I think the real question here is whether a woman can fail as a wife Is it part of patriarchal oppression of women to say that there are obligations and responsibilities? Involved in being a wife Can you just walk away from a commitment that you made to a man? freely for life with no consequences just because it isn't working for you anymore I Don't think men are given that choice Women need to be held accountable Can it be too harsh? Yes Can women and men get themselves into situations where they're too far over their head with marriage and kids and everything else? Yes But both men and women need to be honest when they get into that kind of situation and not blame the other partner for emotional abuse It shouldn't be allowed for a woman to go nuclear on her husband because our society gives that option to women as an easy out When you get overwhelmed When you're failing and you can't handle the guilt that you feel from failing You just blame your husband and you go nuclear on him I think in essence we can either look at this situation one of two ways You take the video on its own and you see a frustrated man trying to hold his wife accountable Accountable for responsibilities that she agreed to and her refusing to listen to him and walking out If you take this video in the full context of the situation You see a woman who checked out from this relationship months ago Wound her husband up at his most vulnerable moment before a major surgery Saved a clip for two years and after he told his audience about their divorce because it was increasingly becoming public and was Going to be used against him dropped that clip to a scumbag journalist to try to destroy her husband's name Either way, he's the innocent one and she is not Thank you All right. Thanks for your opening statement there Grace So over to you Ben you got eight minutes left there for your opening statement Thanks for being okay. Thanks Ryan. I Don't have so much of prepared speech as what I want to point out here And it takes a few viewings to see but there are major things that are missed In when this narrative is told Sympathetic to the wife here the first and major one is that four days after this nest video Occurred Steven Crowder went in for elective surgery now elective surgery just means Non-emergency surgery the surgery that was performed involved cutting his sternum I think open and inserting titanium bars to prevent his chest from collapsing and For them to schedule that only a month before Is his wife is to give birth means it was a dire situation So to say that she has she's pregnant and in a vulnerable health situation. He is also although you can't see it It's not the type of thing you see but he said on a video that his heart was pumping only at about 50% What it should be hoping at secondly This was during COVID and another thing that's odd that that no one's really noticed is that he says if she leaves he won't be able to Be here and he won't be able to make calls What he's talking about Is post-surgery and I and I've known friends I know a friend who had the surgery and I've seen online people talk about this You can't even raise your hand to make a phone call Okay, and she has no reason to walk out. I mean there's obviously a problem But what she's doing is hitting him at his most vulnerable time but it looks like He's just kicking back and enjoying the cigar There are many many many many things like this another another Thing that I just found out yesterday. I was like, you know I wonder what how long you have to be married to get alimony Which is an important thing for someone who's deciding to bolt the answer in the state of Texas is ten years and The smartest way to file for divorce would be to do it Before the ten years because the ten years includes up till so she filed at the end of the ninth year So she could say oh no, no, and I wasn't doing it for that reason But it really looks like a setup and Kyle is gonna say it's no women can't do 90 chess believe me I believe that women can be quite smart and quite crafty It's not 90 chess to set up a man in the way that Steven Crowder was set up by his wife Hillary and The real question as Grace said is in our society Can women ever be held accountable for anything can women fail or is it always? That they have some sort of problem Or some sort of mental illness that a man has to their father or their husband or someone's always got to be someone else's fault And I actually think to say that women should be able to be held accountable and should be able to Find solutions to problems is actually a feminist point And anyone who says that women can't and a pregnant woman can't do things and I know that both Steven And Kyla have actually taken quite moderate positions on this probably the two most moderate positions of all people I've seen react to it Yes, they see this but they nevertheless even though they see there's a lot here We don't know Where they don't know something they skew against the man And I think they have no grounds to do so based on the evidence and all of it points to it being skewed against her One major point here because I've gone through a similar thing in my own life is that I think you may have a problem here That's on a very very deep level and divorce is a problematic solution to that problem My conjecture is that Hillary Crowder had serious Impediments when she got married. I don't know that but it seems to be implied when Steven Crowder says we're gonna release all that mental health Stuff I think she had a problem with this I think she got overwhelmed and it's really really hard for women And I think this is a fault in our society, especially traditional women to admit that they're over their heads and It's really easy and really tempting for them to just blame the spouse and play the victim And I don't think we're doing men or women any favors by Automatically assuming that the man's to blame The I've encountered I've I've been on the internet long but I've encountered so many young men Who are saying a relationship with a female short term medium term long term is a nightmare And there's become is there's becoming an increasing argument an increasingly rational argument Which I did not think was possible that Really, it's not worth it on any level to deal with females because you're Setting yourself up like Steven Crowder got set up here. I don't think Steven Crowder regrets having his children I don't think Steven Crowder regrets what what he got into But you can see how the argument can be made and women need to start making the other argument that we will be held Accountable, we're not gonna do this to men Maybe that's how it was going on here I don't have I don't have omniscience any any more than anyone else But situations like this do happen and this was not about going and getting the groceries and how many cars they had This was a woman Leaving her husband and leaving her responsibilities never to come back While it looks like groceries I'm good All right. Well, thank you so much for your intro statement grace and Ben So yeah, it looks like our mods are back in the chat there Sorry everybody, but I've only got so much access right now to the platform, which is a ton But we're gonna kick it over to the other side here Who would like to start on your side? Okay, do you want to go first or am I gonna go first Kyle? Six of these go ahead. All right. Destiny's gonna take the floor. Thank you so much for being here everyone and For is all yours destiny. Yeah, sure So I think that there are kind of like five things that I would focus on for why I would call the situation here Pretty clearly abusive from Steven Crota's perspective And I think I would have to be presented with an insane amount of contrary evidence to override these five points So the first point is her ability to leave this situation both the marriage and immediately like the actual balcony is Insanely compromised. She has a serious health event going on right now, which is being pregnant with twins And from what we've heard later Steven apparently has the ability to completely cut her off financially from her means of existing So it sounds like she's probably not working right now That's the first thing the second thing is it seems like through the course of this One reason why I would say this seems abusive from Steven Crota's end is he seems completely Unwilling to work together to try to figure out a compromise to the problem He refuses to try to compromise on the car thing when she wants to take the car He doesn't letter when she offers to call a friend. He tells her instead that she needs to call an uber It seems like he doesn't have any desire here to actually work together with her to figure out a fix to the problem For the third part, I feel like his tone is needlessly derisive Contemptuous and insanely aggressive With multiple statements like you give up so easily you have no respect. The only matter. This is discipline and respect I don't love you. I've never received love from you become a wife worthy These aren't statements that you make to some of you love you're trying to work out a problem with These are statements you make when you're trying to tear somebody down and attack them and leave them Psychologically weak and vulnerable for you to exploit or manipulate these are not things you say to a wife Do you love who you genuinely hope or sincerely wish to work out any of your problems with? The fourth thing is feels like in this fight something you commonly see in abusive situations Is he's not really trying to figure out how to solve the problem But instead sometimes he even seems spiteful or like he's wanting to get even with her When he points out that he is gonna be locked at home away from the car rather than expressing that as an actual interest It's saying like hey I'd like to be able to do something I'd like to be able to go to the gym Like maybe we can work out a different plan for the schedule. He says Failing some constraints. I can then he starts to listen to things He can't do feels like he's more interested in kind of like throwing jabs and getting even that actually figuring out a solution Other problems and then for the fifth thing The fact that when she tries to leave after saying multiple times that she wants to take space She literally says I need space. She's unable to leave even when she gets up to leave He gets up chases her inside the house gives her the leash and says walk the dog walk the dog put on some gloves and walk the dog All right, we're gonna kick it over to not so iridate Thank you so much for your opening statement there destiny And just want to remind everybody in a live chat that all of our guests are linked in the description So if you like what you're hearing from any of our speakers You can check them out in our description. So not so iridate. I I think you have still Nine minutes on the clock. So floor is all yours. Great. I probably won't use that entire amount Basically what I'd say here is we saw a three-minute video or an interaction where clearly Unhealthy things are happening, right? I think if you take the video just at face value Steven looks like a giant raging POS he looks like an awful partner. He's not supportive. He's uncompromising Very very controlling said some pretty nasty things Doesn't look good for Steven the issue that we have to like remind ourselves in the context of this conversation Is the reality that we're seeing a three-minute video Which means taking a really really strong opinion one direction or the other unlike he is clearly an abuser and always has been in their relationship Or he clearly is not an abuser and never has been is to me just kind of insane They have a nine-year marriage. We're seeing three minutes of it, right? All of the outside context that's going on around this video For example, is this interaction the worst interaction that they've ever had is this actually one of the best interactions They've ever had would completely skew how abusive or not abusive we find the individuals I think a lot of times when we see like really toxic interactions, which Steven did a good job of outlining Many of Crowder's toxic interactions with his wife We immediately want to jump to like using the abuse word and there are abusive behaviors within this the issue Is that that's not enough to establish abusive pattern? It's also not enough though to just say it's clearly not abusive I think that that's just a pretty extreme claim and I I think we just need a lot more evidence To really really clearly make one decision or the other about like the dynamic of their entire relationship Thank you everybody for those opening statements. We can kick it up into open discussion I do know that there's a couple other screen shares that we wanted to get to so we'll get to those as they come along Just remind everybody in the live chat. We are doing a Q&A at the end of all of this So if you have a question for any of our speakers related to the subject not a tax against our speakers They're here on their own time. We want to respect them If you've got questions for them, please fire it in the live chat for super chats and we'll read them at the end All right, so open discussion. We'll kick it over to the yes side to To kick off our open discussion. Thanks guys We're the yes side. Is that right? Yeah Can I start this just by saying so the opposition seems to be saying look We can't we can't say that he is an abuser But we can say this display is abusive behavior That was Ariya's point and then Steven followed it up by like listing what the toxic behaviors were that he saw Okay, he said she was unable to leave the situation Both the marriage and she was immediately unable to meet leave the situation. That's not true. He lets her go He lets her take the car. He doesn't physically threaten her at all the cutting off of her financial her access to finances was an allegation made by her family in a statement that was full of lies and She was completely legally free to leave the marriage. So to say like that it's toxic behavior in the sense that it's controlling That's not true. That's just flatly not true The first example you gave was like that he he does not control her She is free to leave both the marriage and immediately that situation. Okay. Yeah, so on this first point I think we have to have a bit more of a sophisticated understanding of what it means to control somebody and to control space There's a difference between saying like a person physically is not capable of leaving an area because the other person's gonna fight them To the death on it versus trying to impose some level of physical imitated intimidation to manipulate the person from leaving the area I would say that when she's clearly uncomfortable She clearly says she needs to get space and she's trying multiple times to get space for her to get up and go to the door And for Stephen Curry to get up and chase her is him trying to physically impose himself on her to keep her from leaving Now whether she's ultimately allowed to leave. I don't know how long after this. She did leave I don't know if any of us know the answer to that I would say that that is like a hallmark of an abusive behavior is when a partner clearly wants to put space between you and them And you physically impose yourself to make them unable to do so When did he physically impose himself to keep her from being able to leave? He never went when she got up to leave He gets up to chase her and hands her the leash and tells her to walk the dog But he doesn't stop her from going anywhere She walked right by him several times and right out the door. She came right out of life after he handed her the leash She came back to the balcony to walk the dog So she walked the dog. She didn't walk the dog. She left. They had that discussion And she left nobody never came back No, nobody's saying that she walked the dog What we're saying is that he every time that she physically moved around he would get up and Essentially insert himself physically in spaces as she was trying to give it. Yeah, but no, but you're inaccurate He did not physically prevent her from anything. You could say he psychologically Did can we what can we watch can we replay the video just the ending part the last like 20 seconds? Yeah? Yeah, I know sure. Okay. Give me one second Okay, you get that up steps that page sucks so much Just gonna remind everybody that we are going to be uploading these to our podcasts within 24 hours of having these discussions So definitely check us out on your favorite podcast forums We're gonna review the video again. So yeah, if you want to keep your screen share up and carry on Okay, so at the end let's establish let's establish a couple things before we watch this Do we all agree that she wants to leave the house at this point? Do we agree with that? Yes? Yes, okay? We agree that she doesn't want to walk the dog. Correct. Yes. Okay, and Steven Crowder doesn't or give the dog is medication Sure, and Steven Crowder doesn't want her to leave the house, correct? Mm-hmm, and Steven Crowder does want her to leave Does want her to walk the dog and give him medication, right? Those are these are our two conflicts, right? It's really yeah, I think we all agree on that. Okay, cool. All right, so then let's watch what happens here Okay She says she doesn't want to engage that she says she wants to go Blocking her Steven We're still where we're free to leave. We're getting there. We will watch the video Now he gets up he tells it put on gloves because he doesn't want her to leave, okay, but she's trying to leave I did okay. Just keep watching. We're watching till the end. We got 20 30 seconds left Yeah, let's finish it up She fully leaves and he follows after her Steven, correct. He does. That's what I just said. Thank you Yeah, he follows out blocking her you said, okay? Well, then let's see what happens Sure, let's see what happens. So he follows her to the door. She's trying to leave what happens next He has the keys in her hand. Okay, and what happens? He brings her back outside He brings her back she freely came back to get the keys And now she's picking up the leash to walk the dog She walked right by him picked up the leash and then she goes back out. You can see Steven. You are wrong. There is no physical Intimidation here. You can say they're psychological, but there is no physical he literally physically moves. I didn't say he blocked her He brought her back. I said physically you can say psychologically. No, psychologically Psychologically would be him shouting at her, right? Verbally, but he gets up to the door to physically impose against her to bring her back out here, right? Let's let's finish up these last 20 minutes so we can stop the screen share She walks right by him right by him again And now yeah, she walks right by him But now one we see Steven go inside the house and apparently this video says that they get angry and anger and he says I will fuck you up. So him chasing her into the house Why not sit here and let her leave the fact that he followed her into the house shows He's trying to be physically imposing to get her to do what he wants her to do Following someone is physically blocking them from leaving. Yeah. Yep. Yes Continuing a conversation is is when pursuing someone to continue a conversation with a partner. Hold on. This is no It is not. No, this isn't an opinion That's the fact if somebody is trying to leave and you're getting up to follow them to continue a conversation that they're trying to Disengage from yeah, that's trying to use a physical imposition to force them Physical Steven. Yes, it is He was not physically no, you're trying to continue the conversation. Yes If you're moving your material So say me and Nick were having a fight and I said, you know what and actually I'll give it for you guys He says, you know what Kyla? I need some space and so I don't grab him But I follow him around the house I keep trying to pressure him to come back in and do things in the household There's a physical element to that because if I wasn't being physical at all that was just being psychological I would stay in this room and while Nick walked away I'd be yelling at him like you you f-ing whatever whatever and then maybe threatening him to turn so would it be abusive if you Followed him into another room to pursue a conversation. Would that be you physically abusing your husband physically preventing it? Hold on. No one said there was Yes, that's exactly what Steven said. You said physical prevention. He said he's cutting off for ability to leave. Okay. Stop lying here Okay, I think I've triggered you with the word physical. So we can try to come across some other word Well, you're wrong. Don't say I'm no no no. He he wasn't verbally abusing her He wasn't psychologically abusing her He got up to physically insert himself into an area to control what she was doing now I can't have a conversation. You have to be physically in the area, Steve No, you don't he could have shouted at her from the balcony. He could have let her So it's abuse to pursue someone who's leaving and say hey, can we talk? Let's let Grace speak for a minute here, sorry. Oh Well, I'll let Steven go but I she was he was in the doorway He was physically in the situation she walked right by him and then she walked past him Then she got in her car and left like they said like she herself said you don't know how long how long after this did she get Into the car and leave Well, nobody knows that but why do you keep saying it? I don't know why you keep saying that You can she might have left she might have a 12 hours later or the next day. Does she even leave this day? I don't know why but now it's just Hold on it's not conjecture based on video. You just you're the one that's bring up Oh, well look she left. That's your conjecture. I'm not saying that. Oh, what? Yes. That's your structure look at the edit It's her edit obviously because she's the only one who would know this She puts an edit at the end and it says after this she fled the home when he said I'm gonna fuck you up And I know exactly what he meant. There is no there has never been any physical violence He meant I if you do this to me if you leave and do this to me. I am going to make your life hard Sure, that's what he meant by that. That's fine. That's what that's fine. That's fine That's fine, but you guys saying she left immediately after you don't know that we're just right there Okay, hold on He said that I can break it in here. Okay all Stephen is trying to point out is that we don't know the time from when the video ends to when she physically Exits the house and gets in the vehicle There's a lot of conjecture required to assume when she leaves so you guys are saying she just left immediately But it sounds like what happened is that she went inside and then she felt threatened if we take the text at face value And then she ran away from him while he was chasing her, right? So like we don't fully know that the details of how she left is all he's trying to point out Whereas you guys were saying she immediately she's leaving right there. See she wasn't physically intimidated We don't know how soon after that video ending to the point of when she actually exited the house That's all clearly within the same interaction though, whether it was In the video are we on the same planet they got angry Yes, both we're gonna yeah, tell me where it says she left there to few frames. She says it Let's bring up the screen share again. We'll try to sue keep everybody If everybody could prevent themselves just for a few minutes from injecting and we'll really pay attention to what's happening in the video I know there was a lot of commentary going on the last time we watched it So let's just see we can focus on what you guys are highlighting there I On the same page can we all agree that at some point Hilary leaves the house. Yeah, okay The end of the conversation, okay, we don't know specifically When she left the house that we don't know if it's time or anything after he by his own admission screams I will fuck you up at His pregnant wife Hilary who then flees their home. You're telling me this could be days later It might be I'm just saying it might be like a ridiculous if you want if you want We can say that Sure, if you want we can say that she leaves the house within 30 minutes. If you really want that it still doesn't I'm just saying this is all part of one interaction. Sure and the end of it. She left If you if you want that that's fine, but it's true. Okay, we don't know the length I have to be able to finish the thought without him interjecting. Okay Okay, if you want we can say that he left there that she left 30 minutes later That's fine. We can grant that but it still doesn't change anything that I said before You trying to physically impose yourself to keep somebody from leaving and then being able to leave doesn't mean you didn't try to Do that Yes, it does. He did not physically impose himself to keep her from leaving. He did not block the doorway He was sitting for most of it. She had the keys in her hand. He did not physically prevent her from leaving now. You can say psychologically He was doing that. That's fine. But physically no and we know that even her Propaganda denied that there was ever any physical abuse Okay, can I just have you guys ever worked with like cattle or animals or anything like that? Ever watched cattle dogs work? Okay, yeah, I know what you're talking about vaguely. So you know how they'll push cows along almost exclusively without touching them, right? They'll just get like big and kind of put their body pressure in different locations. Yes. Yes So are you saying that cowboys are psychologically coercing cows to move or do you think they're using their physical bodies as like Kind of like physically coercing cows to move in different directions. So using their presence their size Maybe the loudness of their body. Would you agree to that? Can we call that physical can we call that physical coercion? Yes, with the threat of violence the threat of violence And that's how those cows learn to move because they are bitten by those dogs Sure. So that's what we're talking about is we obviously Stephen isn't biting them. Stephen being crowded. Um But what we're talking about is when he's getting up and he's moving into her space And he's a larger physical being even though he's not physically touching them There is an element of physical coercion and pressure there. No, there is not I know what I would do if I wanted to block her. I'd stand in the doorway Right. He lets her walk right past him like twice He gets up and follows her into the kitchen. She is the alpha in that position. That's it. She's the alpha She is exhibiting power by taking the keys and moving in the direction of the exit of the house. Obviously Okay, when you Okay, when you are trying to placate somebody who is clearly the aggressor and you're trying to create space You're saying I love you. I love you. I just want to leave. I need space and you're withdrawing into the home And somebody else is pursuing you There is no world in which the person fleeing there is perceived as the alpha. She's clearly trying to Finish my sense. She's clearly trying to create space. She's clearly uncomfortable with the situation She's clearly trying to placate him from getting increasingly angry And as soon as she actually manages to take physical space by going inside the house and not having the continued exchange outside He physically gets up and follows her to continue the conversation that she clearly doesn't want to take part in Yes, right She doesn't want to take part of it in something Are you saying that if someone doesn't want to take part in something? There's no such thing as like the silent treatment that withdrawing can be a power move Are you saying that and leaving a situation can't with no resolution can't be an aggressive move Are you saying that it's never an aggressive move to chase and pursue somebody who says they aren't comfortable having a conversation? Yeah chasing someone with like a gun. Yes. So you also if you're not chasing So he's the one who wants to continue to engage. Yes, but she doesn't want to He's not threatening violence. He's applying pressure to her with his physical presence to convince her and coerce her To stay rather than respecting her wishes, right? He's not grabbing her because i'm gonna guess that he's probably doesn't physically abuse her, right? But he is using his physical pressure to impose. Yes getting in somebody's physical space Even if you let them move past you is physical pressure. It is physical coercion psychological pressure He's using his tone of voice. I'll admit that The idea that he blocked her and that she wasn't the aggressor here is ridiculous. Does she have a right to not carry on that conversation? Legally does she have a right to no morally Does she have a right to step away from that conversation if she feels like it's too heated There are situations in which someone needs to can like needs to resolve a situation. Yes Did it feel like there was something in there a moral right? Does it feel like in that case that there was something that required an immediate resolution? Or could this conversation Right and i'll tell you something else about that little video that is Pivoting i'm asking i'm a very simple question Does she have the right to walk away from that conversation? Say i'm not comfortable continue this conversation right now. I want to take space she have the right to do that Did she have a right to walk away from their? Marriage You're pivoting you did not have that right she did so you don't think she had a right to walk away from that conversation Not uh, you know temporarily could be understandable but she should she should have come back and there's no evidence that she didn't have Any evidence she's been attacking him from afar ever since then You you you try to make it sound like she just wants a little bit of space. She says I need space I need time. I'll be back when i'm back. Does somebody have a right when you're married to them to just say I'll be back when i'm back. I'm taking space. No, that's why it was unresolved That's why he's saying well, we at least have to work something out here She does not have the right to do that depending on the severity of the fight you absolutely Always have the right to take space of course. No, you do not there are situations in which you have to stick You have to resolve something I'm not sure in that situation, but i'll tell you what else this looks like it looks like the perfect setup She played to that camera and she used Things that will look a certain way in court in the public eye and you could tell he's totally confused by what she's doing I think this was a planned Thing I can't prove that but it looks a lot like it She's and I just go back to right to the camera. Okay. I'm not going to go there with you yet Can we just go back to Does she have the right so you guys agree that if she needed like a two hour time out that would be okay? You guys agree to that? Yeah, you could take some space. Yeah, but if she's saying you've been doing this for nine years No, but you don't know if she has been you don't have that context Well, you were saying is this an absolute rule and my answer is no it depends on the context I'm saying in general There's there's there are circumstances where I'm even not but I would generally side with somebody saying I want to take space that's totally fine Right. Do you guys think it's fair that when you're taking space? Especially in a heated argument, you might not give an exact time of when you'll be back You might just say I'll be back when I'm back and that could mean two weeks But it could also reasonably mean two hours four hours. Would you guys do that? What about hold on? Hold on? I just needed to answer that Would you guys agree that her in a heated moment saying I'll be back when I back doesn't necessarily imply that she's Two weeks would be unbelievable if she's coming if she's going to surgery in four days That's an unbelievable insult to him. I'm gonna ask again Do you guys think what can quibble about whether she's heated or not after if somebody is heated? It's reasonable for them to just say I'll be back when I'm back and not give a firm deadline Is that reasonable? No, I do not. I think that's it could be abused if it's two weeks. No, that's not reasonable Okay, so it's never reasonable. It's a power move. I'll be back when I'm back No, I don't think that's reasonable to do to your husband for nine of nine years Who's going in for surgery and who has an extremely stressful job? I do not think that's reasonable So you so you are obligated at all points in time to be there. You're changing it. You guys are changing it You're no, hold on grace. Just said that you're not alone. There's nothing sneaky All we're trying to do is figure out if you have a right to take space when you are uncomfortable in a situation And it sounds like both of you guys are I think grace misspoke and she's you because you guys are playing this game You're more sophisticated. So you you at first said is it always right to do that? And we said no is it okay? So it's never right to do that and and she said she bit for your little trick Well, because why don't we stop with the bullshit and just say there are times that when yes and there are times when no Cool, that's all we're trying to say there might know it is not you're trying to play games Can I finish a sums when when you don't let me finish it's because you know I didn't say I was a big one But I'm saying that when you don't let me finish it's because you know you have a weak argument Right, which is fine. I understand that argument is the same. Yes it is So we're just trying to say that it is permissible at least sometimes that if you are feeling stressed If you feel like you're emotionally compromised to want to take space in an argument Is it of course every single time? No, but if it's okay at least some of the time You don't have the context here to say whether she's in the right or the wrong So I would probably side. I think it's fair to side to the person that wants to take a little bit of space That's why do we have to say if we don't know that we have to side with one side or the other Can't we debate that that's what this debate about I'm not saying I know everything about it Because steven is the one that is aggressing here. So you would probably know higher. No, let me finish a sense Steven is the one aggressing here So similar to how an affirmative defense would work in court where if you kill somebody and you say it was self defense You're already admitting a wrong that like, okay Well, I'm killing somebody but not a really good reason for doing it Steven is the one that's pursuing somebody that said they need space generally when somebody says they need space I'm just gonna keep talking till I finish generally when somebody says they need space You ought to respect that unless you have a higher threshold of evidence saying no When they're trying to say they need space here, it's an abusive strategy And I would actually go one step further if they are saying I need space and they're using that as an abusive strategy To properly resolve that you either have a third party or a therapist present to do so You would never try to resolve it on your own She's the aggressor. She's making the decisions. She takes the keys and she says I'm leaving. That's her aggressive position He's the one saying please don't please stay. How is how is you saying I'm making the decisions Yeah, but making a decision isn't always aggressing right me making a decision isn't the same thing as aggressing on somebody Me saying I'm taking space isn't aggressing. It's a boundary and it's hold on It's inherently a de-escalation Taking space at anyone who's gone to marriage therapy 101 Knows that taking space is the most important way to de-escalate conversations Her getting space is a de-escalation necessarily No, it is not it can be an escalation. Do you are you are you too familiar with what's called the silent treatment that people do Yep to others. Is that a form of aggression? Maybe we're just misusing term. We're we're using that as a an aggressive tactic It's it's not aggressive. It's avoidant, which is generally Now is it could it be could it be try to be obnoxious? Sure. Could it be abusive even? Yeah, sure All right Sure, we can say she might be being abusive as well, but I need more context to know that Okay, here's a piece of context Here's a piece of context if I can talk for a little bit. I know you're offended by that Well, we'll let you speak for a bit here. He said To her hillary you always just give up now that wasn't just right then You can tell there's been a massive history of her Giving up and she is an avoidant personality if you wouldn't want to call that aggression I have no problem with that. She has a clear tendency to avoid conflict and to give up And that can be a problematic personality type I'll fully grant you that being highly avoidant can be abusive, right? This is what neglect is right neglect is like maximal levels of avoidance But neglect is not aggression and you guys were saying that heli was aggressing first Saying something has maybe done something that's toxic in a dynamic is not the same thing as aggressing Oh, whatever her her. Well, it really matters in this case because we're saying We're saying in this case back over to you Great, steven is aggressing steven kraut is aggressing first And she is trying to get space if we're taking the video With the level of nuance that steven. I are trying to take to calm the video Men tend to be more aggressive women tend to be more avoidant. Yeah, okay But both can be obnoxious in context the argument isn't whether who's being obnoxious or not I don't know why we're well what what are we asking is it's steven kraut or innocent of what? I'm not even asking if he's innocent. We're just asking That's what we're actually doing. Is he innocent of being a man? Is he guilty of being a man and the answer is yes, he's guilty of being a man So am I you're trying to get out of it steven, but I'm afraid you're gonna get caught too It's not a crime to be a man. It's not a crime to be bigger than it's not it's also not a crime to raise your voice It's not a crime. You know, no one said any of these things were crimes. It's not even a crime to be abusive Leave your house or leave your house and never yeah, it's also not a crime. Yeah, it's not a crime to leave your spouse It's not a crime to take the car and fucking drive away It's not a crime to be a woman, but it's not a crime to be a man This is brave very brave takes here. Yeah, it's nobody. I don't think anybody's saying otherwise Yeah, you are you are you're implying you're implying that no matter what the situation I'm just saying you you two both do leave some room for nuance and you're saying okay But you generally skew way in the favor of this woman and I don't see any evidence why you would do that I admit that we're on both sides conjecturing, but you're like we shouldn't make judgments about this But let me go ahead and call them a piece of shit. I just saw your video. Nobody has said we shouldn't make Nobody's saying we shouldn't make any judgments about it. You probably just didn't why do you make them Instinctively with no evidence gonna keep talking. Let's let them finish up Nobody is saying that we shouldn't make any judgments whatsoever There are probably some judgments that we can make it looks like for instance, they've been to therapy It looks like for instance, they've been fighting for a long time It looks like for instance, they've got disagreements over the fucking car. We can make some statements about what's going on There's nothing wrong with that the only statement that I think me and erudite or the very least I'm opposed to is absolutely saying in the totality of the relationship Stephen Crowder is the bad guy. Hillary Crowder is the good guy or vice versa. That's it in this one situation, Stephen Crowder is clearly Exhibiting abusive behavior. Hillary Crowder might be exhibiting abusive behavior But we need more context to say if she is we don't really need much more context to say if Stephen is again It's almost never okay to pursue somebody that's saying they're trying to take space in an argument That is arguably an abusive behavior Especially if you're doing it by moving your body around to follow them around when they've said they wanted to disengage from an argument All right. Well, Stephen you mentioned two other things that proved that he was displaying toxic abusive behavior You said he was completely unwilling to work together with her when he said Hillary come on. Let's work this out. Hillary you give up so easily and she was the one leaving and not engaging while he was trying to Continue the conversation Secondly, you said his tone was derisive and the examples you gave for his tone being derisive were you give up easily You have no respect. The only way out of this is discipline and respect You said that those are ways of tearing somebody down psychologically. That is clearly not abuse That is called holding somebody accountable for the promises they made to you for the standard. They agreed to be held to That's not abuse. That's not misusing the other person Um, I'm fuck my door sign. Hold on. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay Um, sure. I'll I'll toss in I guess that's a little bit more towards Stephen, but um, grace How do you feel about him saying I don't love you? Do you think that that's in any ways a reasonable criticism or something? That's going to be productive in a conversation with your wife to figure out your problems I gotta I believe what was happening when she when he said I don't love you is she kept saying I love you I love you and he was saying well, you've never shown love to me and I believe he was frustrated He said, oh, I don't love you. I do not think that's abusive. I don't think it's intended to tear her down I think he's saying let's just ask if it's a if it's him giving valid criticisms I didn't ask any of these other things Is it a because you said him saying, you know, you need to be disciplined respectable These are all examples of him just giving legitimate criticisms to his wife Is saying I don't love you a legitimate criticism to your wife Well, I mean, I think you have to view it in the context of what he was saying just alone It seems harsh, but if you see what he said right after it He said because you've never shown me love in this relationship by showing your love instead of just saying you love So Wouldn't that imply then that if he doesn't love her then he's not showing her love either in that If that's the context of it wouldn't that necessarily imply that he's basically saying no neither of us show each other love ever Why would he say I don't love you after complaining about her not showing him love Why do you make that leap he is saying you have never manifested your I love you. I love you. I love you in any actions Or at least to such an extent That he's saying I ask you to do these minor things and you don't do them And then you tell me you love me and he's pointing out that that is abusive What is wrong with that? He may be not he may be wrong No, why are you running this debate kyla? Why are you in charge? You and steven are not in charge of this debate ryan is Okay, can I respond ryan or Are you done ben? I think we're good. Okay. Um, so the question is still I don't love you doesn't seem productive In fact, it seems evidence of steven's point that he's not trying to find compromise. He's not trying to work on things I don't think saying things like I don't love you is helpful in any way to a conversation Can I push back on that? Sure thing. Okay, let's go if you've got two options that you feel like because this is Kind of end game. Let's just say that he's aware. This is kind of end game He's getting the hint that she's pulling something here because he does act very like what do you mean by that? Okay, so he's saying now you're saying Is him saying look, I really want to have this out I've never seen any love in action from you and she's taken the keys and leaving Which of the two of those are engaged? I want an answer to that Which of those two are going to engage and which one is bolting? She's she's leaving the situation. Yeah, yeah, okay So is it abusive for him to say like, well, let's have it out Uh He doesn't say let's have it out. He says I don't love you. You're not showing me love. You need to be a better wife Well, do your wife be that he doesn't love her anymore. Is that okay for him to say if that's honest The honest if that's true then doesn't that undermine every single thing you've been saying and that he's the one That's essentially leaving doesn't that kind of like coincide with him hiring the divorce lawyer first and everything If he really truly doesn't love her anymore And if even if he doesn't does not love her anymore, then why would she stay and have the conversation? It seems like she should just leave But he then explains what the problem is. She doesn't do anything Right, do you think that here's a question Do you think that it's ever constructive in a fight with a wife or significant other or or any family member ever? Do you think it's ever constructed to say I don't love you? Yes If someone is using the I love you thing In this manipulative way. Oh does a man have to be perfect. He explained it right after that. Maybe yes, like Okay, so he says she says he's basically saying to her I fucking hate this tactic that you do of saying I love you. I love you It's bullshit because love manifests itself in action. I believe that's true Do you guys believe that's true? That's saying I love you and not doing anything or not showing that love in whatever ways are normal to show that It's like it's like coming to your boss and saying I love this job and then you don't do anything Can your boss say? I think you suck as an employee at some point. So I think you hit that. I think this is what you said at the beginning It's never just about the groceries. It's not really about walking the dog, right? He's like fixating on this But I don't actually know if this is a valuable critique if Steven is actually Steven Carter He is actually feeling like the problem is that they don't love on each other that he hasn't shown enough love I don't think that any of the way that he's approaching this conversation isn't any way conductive to this conversation going well Would you agree ben that in your view that the man's responsibility is that if he's confronting her It's the man's responsibility to lead the conversation. Would you agree with that? No, I don't think I think marriage is a partnership and I think if if you're in a situation Look, this is the thing if you think it's just about going and getting groceries and how many cars they have Okay, fine But this is clearly an end game and that's manifested by the fact that at the end of this conversation She left him Forever and is now attacking him publicly Max maybe she left because at the end of their last fight. He said I'm gonna fuck you up and she didn't feel safe in the house Yeah, right because you buy the propaganda. That's I'm just going by what's reported in the It's not reported. Why that's her propaganda. There's only two people that could possibly know what happened in that conversation Sure, and unless the they're lying about the court docs or whatever Supposedly Steven Crowder has admitted as much that he did say that that I'm gonna fuck you up court docs It's an edit of a video from a nest From a from a nest camera My understanding is that the writer of that article said that the writer of the article yasha or whatever said that Both of them agreed that he had made that statement So it sounds to me he said that he admitted that so it sounds to me like this is showing up in a court doc somewhere Or some police statements or something now you're guessing you're guessing. Okay, hold on Do you acknowledge either he is reporting this number or he totally made it up? She is reporting it obviously Okay, so okay, so I'm assuming they're not lying about what's in like a court doc or a police report Because that's what it would be a police report if you have an argument with someone There could be a police for all sorts of reasons, but it says no there can't be one So it says in the article now it could be that the article is just lying But in the article they explicitly stated Steven Crowder does not deny that he said he would fuck her up Yeah, I don't deny that either, but I'm saying you take Why are you arguing me about this out of context and you can say to someone I'm going to fuck you up if you do this to me and you can mean I am going to Go to war with you legally and I'm going to try to get custody of our kids or something like that And somebody might feel uncomfortable if you say that I want to leave the house Yeah, and someone also could be twisting that and that's obviously what's going on here to make it look like He threatened her physically violently. Yes, it is. All right. Let's talk about that article Who wrote that article this guy is an absolute scumbag who takes advantage of women in difficult situations The some rich woman gave him $200,000. She had a sewer It doesn't meet the most minimum journalistic standards This is obviously a hit piece from beginning to end its propaganda. No one would quote her family Journalistically there's no such thing as her family only mafia people use that kind of language. It's poorly written. It's clearly propaganda for Her narrative, which is her family not an acceptable quote. What do you mean? What what what is her family saying? What is her family mean? My guess is it's probably going to be things like mother and father or whatever family member She's confiding in about the divorce. We're going to quote something and you don't even say who it's from Just as her family A family can be reported Okay, so now you're saying this is great journalism The guy is a total scumbag. I never said it was nobody here said that you're taking what is being said there As true. Here's the only statement. I'm taking as being true. Now. You can say that this was totally fabricated You guys within your right if you want to claim that that's fine. I think according to the article According to the article Stephen Crowder himself has agreed that he told his wife I will fuck you up and you keep dancing this awkward line We are trying to say well, there's no proof that he said it but then you're also justifying it at the same time saying Oh, well, he probably said it But when he said it he just meant that he's going to like take her to court if she tries to fuck with him Whatever, right? So I don't know which one which which said you want to do Do you want to do that? He didn't say it at all And we're just not going to believe the article which is fine Or do you want to take that? Well, he maybe said it but he's justified if he did which which argument Do you want to take there? Well, you can take the whole the whole that whole clip and say, okay, do I think that's legit? Is that a legit clip? I do someone could say well, that's all ai but I think it's I think it was her that edited that clip to to exactly that way and added the thing at the end. It's obviously Someone who's working on her side because Steven Crowder had said any and I think this was a mistake He said you can never badmouth your wife in public. So when he made he's doing the white knight thing and saying I don't want to bring the bring the family into this But I think he makes a mistake by doing that clearly. Do you think it's a lie to not want to attack code? So you Make this all make sense You believe that she has like Machiavellian you planned this out for the last two years had the fight saved everything But she's also so stupid that she would edit a clip that could be used as liable against her of defamation And just lie blatantly on a clip that she knows is going to be used in court So she's a 9d chess genius Machiavellian Superhero who plotted this out maybe even staged the fight saved all this, you know planned these things for two years But also she's too stupid to not realize that if she just blatantly lies in like videos and edits that it won't get caught in court No, that's not liable. Let's kick it over to grace. No, no, you're not listening It's it's not liable if you edit something in a way that is Uh, what's the word uh misleading and I don't deny that he said those words Do you think that that was taken totally out of context? How do you think in court? They're going to feel the judge is going to feel to see for examples Let's take for granted everything you're saying is true and the wife did all of these things Do you think that the wife is going to look at this good and be like, oh, so when you say he fucked you up That didn't happen. No, you just said that publicly did no, no We're not saying that didn't happen, but you're not even listening at the end Okay, we're not saying that didn't happen But all she includes is that he got angry and anger then he said this we're not saying he didn't say that And then she fled the home that is intended to portray it as He was getting threatening to her and she fled away from him when in reality That's what she says about the situation. So you guys now agree that he did say this You guys believe that he did said i'm going to we never denied it if you pay attention Okay, but if somebody's saying they're gonna fuck you up. Why can't you also say well? I feel uncomfortable staying in this house Okay, well if it was said in the context of like If you leave here and do this to me, I'm gonna fuck you up Okay, we have to ask this question if a man has never raised his hand and she admits this Never raised his hand at her physically and she's pregnant with twins eight months in and you see his behavior He is not in any way impeding her despite your lie that he is He you're telling me that he's physically threatening to assault a woman with twins who is eight months pregnant That is on I don't even know who you are Did anybody here say that who said that? That is the clear implication of taking those words out of why not just we're both here You don't have to ask us about our implications. You just ask us what we mean. I don't know why we're dealing with implications Well, that's what it is when you when you look at something that it's edited misleadingly and you to Make all sorts of assumptions about it based on your What do you think is unhealthy hatred of masculinity? What do you think is misleadingly edited? Well, the words I'll fuck you up taken out of context are clearly into like Steven I said to you at the end of our interview. I said I'm gonna fuck you up tomorrow in this interview, correct? Okay, no, I don't you you could say oh, I'm afraid of benthor piece. I I'm gonna sue him I I'm a victim of him, but you you know that it was in the context of debate, right? Yeah, but I'm not your two like or two twins like nine month pregnant wife standing outside of balcony With you I'd probably feel a lot differently if we were in person. Do you understand that that a man saying another man? Now you are No, no, I'm just saying that a man on the internet saying I'm gonna fuck you up Comes a lot different than a man saying that in real life, right? It can make somebody feel a lot less comfortable Wait, so are you are you guys saying or not? Okay? It says Steven got angry and angrier He said I'm gonna fuck you up and she fled the home You're saying that's abusive that he said that are you saying that because it was a physical threat? Or are you saying it because it was Verbal abuse which one are you saying this is all I'm saying I'm gonna repeat this for the 20 millionth time All I'm saying is that if you're on a household with somebody Especially your husband and he says I'm gonna fuck you up for any reason even if there's no physical threat You might feel uncomfortable such that you're like I need to leave this house I don't feel comfortable here that it would be totally within your right to say that Yeah, this was at the end. This was the end of the end game And like he's he's saying like don't do this. I'm gonna fuck you up. He was threatening her whatever Okay, do you think let's just ask let's try easy yes or no is again Do you think it's reasonable for somebody to say I don't want to be in the same house as a husband that's saying they're gonna Fuck me up I admit that that it was over it was over. Okay, then what's so bad about her leaving the house? If you're telling me it was over why can't you just leave is it reasonable? I just actually want to hear the answer to that is it reasonable for somebody to feel uncomfortable If they if nix says I'm gonna fuck you up and anyway, do you think it's reasonable for me to be like I don't know maybe a little uncomfortable Is that reasonable? Yeah, but you also would it be in hold on just just a yes or no. Is it reasonable? No, no, I'm not playing your games. Fuck you. I don't play this manipulation games Remember that question just ask it after he rambles because he's gonna say much around him shouldn't you're not in charge of this debate Okay, could we maybe try to be a little meta here and maybe just try to assume that when we're asking you questions We're actually just trying to get to the bottom of what you believe and we're not doing like some Yeah, but you don't have a right to say give me a yes or no question I'm not on a witness. The problem is you're not answering at all You're just like rambling off on some like random shit Do you have a right to leave you leave your house because you feel uncomfortable because your partners are gonna fuck you up Is that a right? You have a legal right? Yes, you don't want us asking legally morally You have a moral right in every situation. Now you're doing the exact same thing we did before We established that sometimes yes and sometimes no Okay, do you think in this circumstance where a woman is Fucking nine months pregnant with twins that when her husband says i'm gonna fuck you up and she probably has a right It's like, okay, I feel uncomfortable here. I'm gonna leave my house I think she planned this out Look at the timing of it. Look at the timing of it. She had been for a couple of years. You didn't answer my question Just let the record show So going back to do you think that it's reasonable after a big fight with her husband that a pregnant woman Feels uncomfortable and wants to leave her house after her husband says i'm gonna fuck you up I think it was over at that point. I agree It's over is not the question. No one's asking if it was over Let's get the question. Is it reasonable? Does she have the moral right? Yes, of course She wanted him to say that she has the right to leave. She could do this edit Okay, if she has that doesn't prove that he's abusive though. She has the right if she if she feels like it Yes, but that doesn't mean she's correct and that doesn't mean that he's abusive true. Okay, that's great Okay, we're making progress. So if she has a right an ethical right to leave that house if she wants to Why would somebody else have a right to try to stop her or to tell us she can't He doesn't say you can't okay, so all right, so let's go wait. Let's go back to this What do you do when you get married? You two are married I thought I was married. What is it that you're saying to that person? Whatever If my wife says hey, I'm uncomfortable. I want to take some space Then I go, okay when you're back we can argue Does a marriage have any obligations that come with it? Of course it does But none of those obligations are if you are extremely uncomfortable You need to sit right here right now and finish this fight with me Okay, so what if someone has been saying since they were married that they've been disengaging and avoiding And not ever doing their part as they see it which is something and then they bolt isn't that irresponsible? Yep, then you talk to a therapist Well, but couldn't it be wrong to blame the spouse if someone has been doing that? No It's not wrong to blame the spouse You're part or no If you want to say that Hilary Crowder has been acting improperly and is failing to uphold her obligations as a wife That could all be totally true That still doesn't give Steven Crowder the right to tell her that she's not allowed to withdraw from a situation where she feels uncomfortable Well, he's not saying you can't he's saying you shouldn't But he's saying don't take the car so easily your friends aren't allowed to come and pick you up Go take an uber. Don't leave. What do you mean? You're leaving. You can't take the car Just sit here and work with the dogs do the dog stuff If you actually loved me you wouldn't leave you would just do the dog stuff So you're right. He's not physically preventing her. He's never explicitly said you're not allowed to leave this house You're my female slave. You're right. He never said those things But he said a whole bunch of other stuff to try to pressure her to not leave Right, right. He's trying to say You you can't keep running away from your problems Is that abuse if he's justified? Could there be a situation in which someone is justified if I have six kids If my kids want to avoid their problems and not face them Then I will tell them no, you don't have a right to just run away and keep saying I need time I need time I need to think about things That's true, but that's because you're their parent. He's not her parent. That's her husband Anybody in any situation if an employee says I need some time Because this pressure of of let I ran a restaurant if if an employee says I need some time out in the middle of a busy rush Um, I I need to get my head together. You need to say fuck you get your ass in here or you're fired You have a fundamental breakdown. No, no, no relation. You say no, no You say yeah, if you want to leave go for it, but you're not coming back. That's what you would say You would never chase an employee and say sure, but he didn't let her leave He acted like she could he could chase the employee down and say go back on the line You're cooking until the shifts over you can't do that Stephen. She had the keys in her hand She walked out the door never to return. How in god's name Did he prevent her from leaving? He was just appealing to her One last time and she had long since I believe made the decision She was gonna set him up in that little back backyard Make him look like an asshole and then bolt just in time to get alimony of a very very wealthy man I think she had a problem That's if I were to go up to my wife and say i'm gonna beat the shit out of you But I don't actually hit her is that okay If you say But he didn't say that I didn't say he said that i'm asking if I go to my wife And I say i'm gonna beat the shit out of you, but I don't actually hit her. Is that okay? I think there are yeah with women. No, but if you say that to a man, I think and you and you aren't going to yeah Okay, I don't know if I can even work within that framework. Go for it. I would Well, I'm just gonna inject here. Uh, just before we People get frustrated. Yeah, that's a framework I can work with. Okay. Just just before we do My worldview, I will just let you know we have been going Now for the time that we had said at the beginning So it's up to y'all if you want to keep having the discussion or we can move into q&a It's totally up to you guys if you want to just keep the open discussion flowing I would just love to suggest one question that we bat around And that is and that is but you guys can choose to not I I know I know where the little little people here And that is can a woman Fail or is it always someone else's fault? Why can you give me an example of that? Hold on. Is this a serious question? Yeah, give me an example of where a woman can fail and we don't blame it on mental illness Or anything like that when we just say you have failed and and we can raise our voice give me an example Can I bend style you and ask you a different question unrelated to that? But I think is more interesting Sure, okay If we had to describe Stephen Crowder's interactions with his wife as one of two things persuasion negotiation or intimidation Which word would you choose? Persuasion for sure Persuasion persuasion persuasion Hillary I don't love you The only way out of this is discipline and respect. Hillary you give up so easily. Hillary come on That's the only so wait negotiation Hold up pro tip negotiation doesn't mean the only way this can work is if you do what I want That is not negotiation ever. I will fuck you up. I don't love you is not Negotiation. Yeah, there is no yes. It is. You want me to give you an example of that You want me to give you an example? I would love to hear an example of that. Yes. Yeah, okay a business partnership starts going downhill And you hold your partner accountable and you say you better get it together and start working for this business Or I'm gonna fuck you up financially No, that's not acceptable if it gets that point where it's deteriorated. It's a good example Why not because you'd never say that to a business partner. That's a sane Yes, you absolutely would you would say look you might think you could just wander away from this obligation But you cannot because I've been in business partnerships. They're very dicey because everyone has Both partners. It's like a marriage. Both partners have full access if one of the partners starts accessing Let's say, you know the funds and it's doing that illegally and you're letting it go You're gonna tell them look. I know what you're doing. I'm documenting. I'm gonna fuck you up in court If that's negotiation, what does intimidation look like? Intimidation it's a way to get somebody to stop doing something because she starts accusing him of abuse, right? She's an example. I could give you an example of intimidation It's like what you did in the debate the other day when you accused me of sexual harassment. That's intimidation That's what you did on that panel because I asked you what your preference was sexually Whether I'd like to hard dick inside me. Yes. Yes. Yeah. No, I didn't say that to you I asked you what you preferred an erection or a soft, right? Okay, and you said that was sexual harassment That's intimidation. Kyla. Let's try to get back to the topic just to keep keep on point because that's not entirely what we're here for Well, she asked for an example That's fine. Uh, so uh, if you guys want to keep talking about the subject That's okay, but we can move it into our q&a if everybody's ready Do you think that there are ever situations? I already know the answer So I guess I'm just asking for the audience is sake you go ahead You think there are ever situations where a husband and a wife arguing the husband says some shit like you need discipline You need respect. I don't love you. This isn't working out I'm gonna fuck you up if you if you walk away from this Do you think there's ever a situation where like six months later? They're like, you know what? I'm really glad my husband said that I needed to hear that it got me in shape Like in our relationship is way better now for that. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. That's what I thought. Okay Sometimes women except both both sides they need to be like held responsible if they're failing And it's especially the man's job as the leader, of course Sure So would you guys agree that there are ways that you could give your partner criticisms that are probably going to be more productive or more unproductive? Definitely Right. So say I have an issue with my partner I could say it like, hey, just so you know, like I understand that like there's probably reasons why this is going on But when you do this thing, it really hurts me and it bothers me and it makes me feel not loved Or I could say I don't love you and if you want to do these things If you want to have love if you want to show me love you need to do these two things right now What do you think is going to be more productive for the goal that I'm trying to achieve which is feeling loved by my partner? depends on the context What about what about let's say you have children and your partner is abusing your children Are you going to have a nice little conversation? Are you going to say you need to stop that right now? Uh, well, even if I'm saying you need to stop that right now I don't think I would ever couch it in language like I will fuck you up Which is a threat or uh, I don't love you Basically ever I think you can have really firm boundaries and really hard conversations with people that don't deter into basically Like insulting strong arming people Threatening them chasing them around the house Like I think there are a million other ways to have a productive negotiation with your spouse And I I think it's insane to try to argue that like These things that Crowder was doing is clearly his attempt at a healthy positive negotiation So there's no such thing as a wake-up call. There's just abuse. No one can say Here's a wake-up. Say that you keep you keep using these insane dichotomies Like imagine me walking into like a person's bedroom and punching them in the face And they're like, bro, why are you punching me in the face? And I'm like, oh, so you think I can't give you an alarm clock? Like that's what you're doing every time we say something when we say like you can't tell your spouse I'm gonna fuck you up if you fail your wifely duties and you're like, oh So you can never tell your spouse that they need to do a better job Nobody's saying that I don't know why the the only thing that exists in your mind is the most radical engagement possible With a person that by the way would be completely ineffective at bringing about any change of behavior All it's going to do is foster resentment and make the person fucking hate you 10 out of 10 times You keep assuming that I will fuck you up is a physical threat of violence. No, it doesn't have to be a physical threat There's no using that as an example There is never I'm going to be I'll take a strongest of this There is never a productive conversation between husband and wife Where one party says I will fuck you up in a serious manner that gets resolved in a positive way That doesn't happen If you take me to divorce court, I'm going to fuck you up in divorce court. Yes. Yes Oh, and since he told me that now I realize that like we need to work hard on our problems and have a healthy resolution That's not happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The relationship is over. Screw me over here. Yeah, that's right. You can say that No, do you agree with that? No, you couldn't no there's and because that is the context here There is no context where I would encourage partners to say I don't love you You it's basically my way of the highway It's about respect and discipline and I will fuck you up. There is almost no context I can think of where I go. Yeah, that'll be a productive healthy and positive I don't know why you said there's almost no context. There's no context. There's no context I just gave you a context. Yeah, and I reject that I said no That would not be that would not be a good example of a healthy engagement. Well, well, can we answer my question then? What is it that a woman can do That we can say let's say in the context of a marriage that we can say She is to blame and not say we need to see a therapist, but that there's a moral Failing on her part. Can you give me an example? I'm not engaged with a question. It's a ridiculous question. Oh, you're not going to engage No, that's a ridiculous question. In your mind women cannot sin That's fine, but nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise But like honestly if you want to talk about like masculinity here I would argue that you would probably agree that Steven Crowder Winging on the couch because his wife wants to leave is not the most masculine show at all like according to like to your world view like This is it's insane I think he acted perfectly within that he acted perfectly within the bounds of normal masculinity Was he absolutely perfect? Why do men have to be absolutely perfect? You just said the dichotomy thing again Why did it have to be perfect? Oh my screen share. Okay. So you couldn't neither of you could come up with an example. So we win this debate There you go. You did it Well, the other screen shares were His his reaction to uh to herd dropping that clip. I don't know if you want to play that But I mean, it's not super relevant to this part of the conversation. It's up to everybody Grace, we just won the debate. Let's move to q&a. Let's rip them apart on that too All right, let's go. It's nothing like winning a debate than having to clear over and over that you won the debate Yes, true. Well, I didn't I I knew that grace had a couple other things there that she might have wanted to share So, you know, if we've already kind of hammered that out, then I think we will move into our q&a Thank you everybody for being here I just want to remind everybody in the live chat that the best way to get these debates out there and And get these these conversations attention that they deserve is by sharing this out So if you got a contentious space that you exist in you like to debate in share this out share with your friends Uh, let them know that we've we've got all the contentious topics over here on modern day debate Uh, and and we really have good productive conversations generally about it. So, uh, Let's uh, let's go into q&a everybody and thanks again to all of our speakers for being here Simon allen for two euros unable to watch just love to mdb big up ryan And then he gives me a little pound it there. Okay. Well, yeah, there you go. There you go. That's to him psychore ten dollars hiring a servant with your millions when you're fresh out of surgery And wife is minutes from birthing twins cringe braiding your massively pregnant wife for not doing all your chores based Yeah, this is this lie that if if a woman is married to a rich man That if she doesn't feel like doing something that he should just hire somebody to take care of it for her Women who are married to wealthy men are not just window dressing They have obligations just like the man and they should be held accountable instead of saying Well, if she doesn't want to do it, you have enough money to pay for her to do it. That doesn't make any sense Is Hillary Clinton like an actress or a model or something? Like I imagine she probably wasn't working at that time But doesn't she still have like tons of things that she does probably like Hillary Clinton You meant Hillary Crowder. Yeah, I meant Hillary Crowder her too though. I'm pretty sure Hillary Clinton's a really good model She's hot. Yeah, they should both be locked up All right, let's continue on Uh, oh flamie. Oh five dollars. Thanks for coming back If Steven Crowder is abusing his spouse by debating her then modern-day debate is an underground fight club We're not supposed to talk about it. Anybody want to comment on that? Uh different behaviors are appropriate in different settings Having an argument with somebody when they're clearly emotionally distressed and they're trying to take space And then telling them that they're not allowed to take space. It's pretty abusive Claiming that it's okay to have more emotional range in an online debate than it is to have an argument with your wife is ridiculous You you should be able to share more of your emotions with your wife. Get angrier get more invested be more honest with her No one is saying that you can't be invested. Nobody is saying that you can't be angry and nobody's saying you can't be honest It's like yes, you are straw man after straw man after straw man There are different ways that I would engage with my online community that I would not engage with with my wife That I'm not engaged with my son that I wouldn't engage with my parents. Of course. That's obviously true It's not a matter of showing a different range. It's just a matter of Give one example give one example when you can be Give an example your voice towards a spouse Give I don't think it's ever good to raise your voice towards a spouse. Okay. Oh, that's crazy. We win again Okay, yeah, that's crazy. That's actually another win for the thorps true Raising voices over spouses Hey space ever raising your voice No, you shouldn't raising your voice usually means you're emotionally dysregulated. It's probably not a good thing to do So if you can't walk off a cliff and she's not aware of it. You can't say hey Stop. Oh, I'm sorry. Are we talking? Okay. Hold on. I'm gonna take a giant debate l There are times you raise if your wife's about to walk into traffic You're trying to warn her not to or if she's walking in the park at a snake is chasing her Then you say why are you going back on what I am. I just say I am going back. You're right. That's a big debate w for you Right. So another l for you and no gel my best. Yeah, you got me there. Okay Do you think there's ever like a time where it's going to be really emotionally healthy and like helpful to your relationship to like insult your wife or tell her that you don't love her Yes, is that like part of the range of emotions that you need to show your spouse? Yes to show her in certain circumstances. Yes, I would say If she's angry and everyone If she's made you angry because she's doing wrong, you should communicate that to her. That's a healthy communication Do you think that you can help? Stop doing this No one is saying that you can't communicate anger. Why do you keep doing this weird dichotomy? Yeah, you just said it Steven Steven Steven I love Steven I love you Let's let Steven go Yeah, eridite asp is okay to scare me your wife and then you counter this You should be able to show anger and you should be able to show emotion forever No one is saying that you can't do that Yes, you are No one is starting with a weird dichotomy What happens? What happens when you express anger? What happens? You don't have to scream or shout at the mean That the idea that you raise your voice and you get emotionally invested that is part of getting angry No, there are two ways to process emotions always. It's called externalizing and internalizing Please Think that you cannot express an emotion unless you're being abusive to your partner is insane You can show your anger in a ton of ways For example, when Nick and I get angry at each other We almost always take a time out because it's not very healthy to show your partner your anger because you typically say things that you would otherwise regret What we do instead Okay, go ahead go off queen of our relationship But what we do instead is take some space about what you said regulate ourselves down The idea that you must at all times maximally show precisely how you feel and never filter it at all Is just immaturity. You're just being emotional. Okay, so this shows your bias You think that anger is a bad emotion to have No one said that anger is a bad emotion to have there are ways you can express anger that doesn't involve you shouting Now, okay, here's a good example I'm frustrated with both of you right now and i'm raising my voice a little bit because i'm frustrated Is that super bad? Do I think that that's bad? What do you think you're arguing that it is? You say you would never raise your voice under your partner No, it never raised your voice. Let's let grace be please You but you said that so according to your own definition, you're abusing us, right? No, we don't have that relationship. We're people on the internet. We can shout and discriminate each other's a different context Oh, but with your with your the person you trust the most you can't share your emotions How does that make any sense if I tell you if I tell you Do you If I tell you I think you're being fucking retarded I think you're a fucking retard that hits a lot different than if I tell my son I think he's a fucking retard. Do you acknowledge the difference there? Yes or no Yeah, I acknowledge that difference Okay, thank you So then there's a difference between me getting upset at you or erudite getting upset in this conversation You guys when the context is like a debate that we're having versus getting upset about resolving a personal issue in a relationship With a significant other. Okay, those are two different contexts. Look look look you I'm also not yelling at you guys. I'm raising my voice. I'm yelling you changed you changed it You said there's no context in which and I asked you I gave you the the big one You just gave me one context in which a man can raise his voice at his spouse You said I don't I choose not to engage and you took your first L and you're keeping them coming at you now If you say of course that with your children and with your spouse you should Start from a position of kindness and gentleness of course But you're the ones who are saying You are the ones who are saying that in no context Can what steven crouter did Be understandable and you are wrong by your own No one is saying understandable We're saying and there are times people do raise their voice nobody's perfect But what we're saying is you can express anger and all sorts of and disappointment and all sorts of other things without being angry Or I'm sorry without screaming It's abusive Everybody It's there up. He's lit light in a cigarette Finish up my thoughts and smoke. It's all good. All right, so we'll let you speak and finish up your thoughts and we'll pass back to even There you you guys are changing your position and you're going to take yet another L you said It's definitely abusive what steven said and all we're saying is I could see a context in which it makes perfect sense And you said nope and and kyla actually tried to give you guys a little out And then you took it from her by saying no no no no honey No context whatsoever and she agreed with you and that's where you took your first L And you can't get out of it now You said that and you've lost the debate. So let's move on Okay, here are the two statements that kyla and I are making that you guys can't seem to wrap your head around Okay, number one is you can express anger Or disappointment or contempt without screaming or shouting at somebody. Okay For instance, I can say you're a fucking failure of a wife Or I can say hey This household is very stressful and I'm very upset because you can't seem to do your responsibilities And it is hurting me right you're expressing the same thing there in two totally different ways Okay, both partners are angry and feel like their wife is failing their obligation In one you can express in a very derisive condescending evil way in a second way you can express it Hey, I'm feeling hurt about this. You're not living up your obligations. Okay So that's the first thing we're making the second one is screaming shouting or being Derisive or aggressive or angry towards your partner or are expressing that in a in a screaming shouting Snarky sort of way is almost never conducive to solving problems. Those are the two statements We're making okay, not that you can never be angry not that you should never ever be mean not that being mean makes you Instantly abusive not that you can never hold them responsible for anything. We've never made any of those statements We don't even agree with those things. Okay, so you're going back on what you said and you said there is no context In which steven krauters behavior can be perfectly understandable even though we've given you one understandable Sorry, you can take it if you want no one Understand why some people kill people to understandable. It's not the same thing is morally acceptable morally acceptable So we need to be clear about what we said. There are certain things where we said There is no context that we think these statements can ever be helpful Which was three specific statements We started this the like the reason why so many people on the internet are mad at steven And I is because we said from the very beginning You can't say much about a three minute video and how it confers to the rest of the relationship The idea that we've just denied that context can exist outside of this that might make certain statements that look bad become more benign Of course, we've acknowledged that that's been our position the whole time There are three specific statements that are self-evidently toxic, which is I don't love you I'm going to fuck you up and now I can't remember the other fucking one In these cases. No, there is no context where you need to say to your wife I'm going to fuck you up or I don't love you. There just isn't even though I've given you them even though I've given you context You've never given us a statement where it's okay to say I don't love you If you don't feel love towards somebody that's okay to say Okay, then in that case the relationship is then the relationship is over We're not debating whether the relationship is over You're saying that's abusive. I'm saying it's not abusive if he doesn't love her anymore. How is that abusive? It's honest Okay, it's either abusive or it's relationship terminating then if you'd like to add this to go on I thought we were coming at this from the context of trying to fix problems in a relationship So you want to say that you can say you want to say let's let's do you guys you guys were claiming that it Was a negotiation you said that he was trying to solve a problem and now you're saying well It's okay to see you don't love somebody and the relationship Okay, then honest there honestly is the relationship is done then in that case It's good that hillary left you guys should be championing that she lived because steve and karate say don't love her anymore That's fine, which is perfectly rational your husband doesn't love you anymore. Why the fuck would you stay? So, okay cool based Yeah, I think it was an end game thing now I actually wanted to say like this is a larger context is emotions What you're saying is that the emotions that the typical way that men big strong masculine men express emotions Is wrong and immoral Right and you're saying they have to have this therapist type of talk. That's not true that's why Men who are masked for example steve jobs was notorious. I'm no big steve jobs fan. He was notorious For demanding a lot of his highly paid employees and he didn't beat around the bush and When hillary clow Crowder married steven Crowder Okay, she married a man like this and that is attractive Okay, but if you can't if you say well, no, no, no, no, you've got it You've got to clip yourself and act like steven would act with a female always. That's not fair Great, so Since you're not talking to steven. I because literally nobody said any of those things I guess there's like an extra ghost in the room. Do you want to talk to my plant? Maybe you did say those things He used it a specific example of where you can't You can't have a certain tone And then he said what you need to do is this therapy talk and go i'm having trouble with you Right steve jobs was notoriously seen as an asshole by literally everybody Steve jobs was the CEO of a company bossing around his employees steven Crowder Clearly his strategy didn't work because now he is divorced and steven Crowder's wife is not his employee So your example literally fortifies what i'm saying and fails at what you were saying at every single stage of the way Unless you think a husband ought to treat his wife like a CEO who was notoriously known as being an asshole and died of Fucking ass cancer or whatever because he ate too many vegetables Okay, that everybody fucking hated that he that that's like the the gold standard for how to treat a partner But this is none of that makes sense. Would you say that relationships have commonalities the relationship between a parent and a kid Uh between spouses between co-workers. There are commonalities. There are some commonalities, but there's also crucial differences Okay, and your difference is that you can never raise your voice Or express anger in a kind of honest way you have to clip it and always be this kind of therapist about it When a man is dealing with a woman, but I haven't heard you say that backwards I haven't heard you say like like steven Crowder was just being really honest and vulnerable with his wife about his feelings Is just it is just dishonest. That is not what happened. Hilary said but steven. I love you and then he said I don't love you and I've never experienced love from you. He was whinging out and getting upset No, he wasn't doing that you're exaggerating. You can be pro masculinity without being pro toxicity, right? You can be pro anti masculine. You just you just yes, you did you just you just made fun of him And and exaggerated and tried to make him look like he was crying. He wasn't What's more I'm escalating than getting divorced from your wife and losing access to both your children He was fighting to keep the access He wasn't fighting to keep the access. He fucking drove his wife out of the household Right, so what you would do is go. Yeah, honey Okay, all your failures just keep them coming and I'll hire someone to do what you have to do You can never confront a woman. So just to be clear I'm when I'm making fun. I just want to refer him. I did say that you can never confront a woman ever I just want to make sure we all understand. That's what I'm saying. Go ahead come I gave you any I asked you to give me an example. You couldn't so just to be clear I'm making fun of Steven Crowder for being toxically feminine in this case, right? He's being like manipulative and trying to coerce her through his words of saying I don't love you And I've never experienced love from you. That's what I'm making fun of him He's being toxic and in this case, I think he's being feminine as well And that's why I'm making fun of him because it's cringe. It's it's toxic and inappropriate behavior. He is being vulnerable. Yes It's toxic to say that you He's beating the shit out of him. She's beating the shit out of him and he's taken it. That's toxic to see No, did I did I say it's always toxic to say these things? I said I don't love you and I've never experienced love to you in response to her saying, but I love you I want to work on this is toxically feminine. She didn't say I want to work on this. You're adding things She said I love you. I'm committed to you and that a couple months later. She divorced him She's I committed to you. What is I committed to you mean, but I want to work on things But then she went and divorced him. She was He hired a divorce lawyer In the context of this if she said she was even I love you and I'm committed to you and his response is to lash out and go I don't love you And I've never experienced love from you. Yeah, you keep you keep you keep feminizing him. You keep them and I shout I you keep you keep Turning it into him crying like a baby. He was well the other option is he's being toxically masculine, I suppose But we can watch it again. I'm pretty sure when he says it No, there's another option. There's another option kyla and that look wife He was I'm out of this relationship. You know, we've come to the place. I don't love you anymore life That's not happening. So that's the only two ways you can interpret masculine behavior Because you hate men There you go. Okay. Hang on. Let me find it. All right. Let's uh, let's share the reaction video looks like what kyla portrayed it as It doesn't It doesn't looks like a man at his wits and And I sympathize with steven crowder and if he's watching I do want to have a conversation about Your situation because I think it can help and grace can help too grace wants to go to that patio and Give the dog his medicine and take the dog for a walk and be grateful And anything else he needs after what he's been put through I would be happy. He needs some feminine support after being attacked by this bitch. Okay, let me find it Oh, here we go. I don't love you. Okay Share a screen make sure you share the audio if there's a audio to be had Okay, that's the part right there. I can keep going but okay, so how does that sound like what kyla said Because she's literally saying Steven I love you. I'm committed to you and then he's that's that sounds to me like somebody that's trying to or wants to work on it And then he's like, I don't love you. I've never received love from you. That sounds like somebody that's given up So in the context of this recording sounds like he's the one that's given up and he's ready to throw in the towel And I'm pretty sure he's the one that hires the divorce lawyer like a month after this video I could explain that but I don't think I think we're at an impasse if you think his reaction there Is steven wearing an impasse if you think his reaction there I don't love you steven. I love you. I'm committed to you. Well, I don't love you and the big problem here Is that I've never received love for you. Okay, so you and your imagination think that that is what happened And so we're we're experiencing two different realities kyla and you are wrong I'm on planet earth and you're somewhere out in outer space in anti masculine land And you should get the hell out of the manosphere and stop telling men what to do because they should know that you Are a hater of men Don't give them any as long as you say it get the fuck away from me. You know anything can be true. Let me see in here Yeah, cobalt. Did you want this is what we're doing here? We're exposing you for what you are, which is a man hater How are you? It's this you're actually both emotion haters too If you had something to say there steven if you wanted to No, it was I'm neither of you should be giving advice to anyone about anything Okay, I will never mind you are a man who is divorced from his wife defending another man who just had to be his wife for Talk to behavior talking to two people that are happily married about how to maintain happy marriage How are you telling us that we're not qualified to give advice? You want to go into your marriage your marriage? You told me yesterday that you would kill your child and that the only thing keeping you from it Would be the inconvenience of driving your car to the abortion clinic. You're a disgusting person through that I would have an abortion. Yes. Let's try not to reference Prior to well easy. He referenced himself as an example myself And we can talk about kyla too if we want, but I won't go there You can't you can't talk about my relationship because there's nothing like if you want like a picture perfect A really healthy happy relationship. You can you can find nick and I okay? We're we're so happy and healthy that we're insult my main insult on like many spaces that i'm boring okay Well, let's continue on and you know, it's all maybe i'm not here to say like I'm not here to judge your relationship, but there are signs here Everyone's seen them bro, this was an incredible launch off of of Then modern day debate is an underground fight club, which I know Oflamio knows we're not supposed to talk about that So positive ten dollars destiny is based and giga chat Because he can give the best argument for either side with no attachment He even delivers better people who are super attached to their side I think he means delivers arguments delivers better people who are super attached to their side This is based not flip-flop Wow There's a lot of missing punctuation there, but I can't tell if they're a fan of destiny or There's a bit of missing punctuation I would agree that your analyses of this are the most nuanced So like we really we're not really on the opposite sides here, but I don't think I don't think that much of a fan Because it starts out with the basting giga chat. So I don't know if that's a compliment in these spaces. So We'll just move on from there. I think we've got better questions Sorry positive. Thank you for your donation. You're super chat so much Mass for 4.99 if I follow grace for five minutes on the street while yelling at her Is there physical intimidation? That's for I would say yes Yeah Wait, how is that physical intimidation? He's not actually attacking you if I I have followed grace on the street for five minutes yelling at her I have it's not physical intimidation. Wait, hold on grace of a stranger. It's just gave Oh, so then so then there are cases where you can physically intimidate somebody without actually laying your hands on them Well, is it literal physical intimidation? No, is it psychological intimidation with the with the like with your physically I mean, it's not physical. You're not blocking me, but I don't know I don't I don't actually it's not physical. Literally. You're not putting your hands on me Anyone who's acting any stranger on the street who's acting crazy obviously is creating a situation in which People are gonna be concerned Do you guys think that like when like cowboys and like herders are like Pressuring animals to move with their like body space that they're like psychologically pressuring the animals We already answered this. Are we in a loop? Just checking just wanted to see if you would say this and they're pressuring them with the threat of violence. Is that correct kyla? Uh, not usually. I know so animals aren't trained through the use of violence Those dogs are they they're cowboys them Uh nip them. Have you ever heard of breaking a horse? Yeah, yes, usually it's not through violence like if you think like putting something on and taking it off Yeah, it's carrot stick. It's carrot stick. But you're saying like do this or suffer the consequences. We're not talking about animals anyways Well, we started by talking about physical presence of stuff Yeah, and it's not typically through threat of violence. It's usually just like being spooked, right? Like you very rarely need to ever like touch a cow or a horse to get it to move Basically never Yeah, I agree that talking with people rationally in a calm tone of voice is the best way to approach problems However, it's not the only way Well, no one's saying it's the only way it's just the only healthy. Yeah, you are you're saying you can't it's the only Rise to a certain threat. Okay. So it's the only healthy way. Yes. So that's where we disagree Clearly and the entire corporates of psychology and human history shows that there are times when you have to Raise your voice and exhibit Aggressive things to prevent evil from occurring. You know that there will never be Well, I'd hate to be in your house If someone comes in and threatens your family because you're going to be rational You're not going to raise your voice and intimidate that person Notice how the only time you've said it's acceptable to raise your voice is in times of like grave like life threatening Like when your wife is about to fall off a cliff or somebody breaks into your house So you're comparing that to him. Let's let's speak Yeah, when we say you said never when we say never obviously the context is in resolving conflict with a partner Don't say never Stephen speak, please ben. I'm sorry. Let me give all the qualifiers Okay, you should never do it when you're trying to resolve a conflict with your wife When you're both on the planet earth when the year is 2023 when the person isn't hard of hearing So you don't don't need to raise your voice to communicate with them when they're sufficiently close to you that's speaking quickly Like do I have to add like a million qualifiers to understand what we're talking about? Like it's pretty obvious what I'm saying when I say don't raise your voice to your partner And then you go, well, what if they're about to walk into the street? You really think that's what we're talking about right here Is it wrong to be angry at somebody and if not is it wrong to show that? Where's the rewind thing? We just got sucked back to some dumb shit Through yelling at somebody through yelling at somebody through showing yes, yes You shouldn't be yelling at partners, but is it okay to be angry at somebody? Yes, it is okay to be angry. You shouldn't be shouting at your partner. Okay. What are the typical ways that we express anger? There are lots of typical ways we express anger, but you can do it with your words You can do it with your actions you can do it by taking space for somebody No, anger is an emotion So how do we emotionally express it if you're sad you cry if you're angry you But there's a million things you could go work out if you're angry you what you could go sprint Hey, I'm angry with you. That's one way to express it You said that's wrong No, he did not say that's wrong never said that's wrong. Well, that's what Steven Crowder is doing So another w for us. I'm angry at you. You just said that that's what he said to her So that's abuse or not all he did is express frustration Yeah, okay. That's all he did. I'm gonna fuck you up. It was just a feeling. He was just feeling Now you're you're saying what the context was and you raised your fist and you're lying kyla stop lying about men You should be in the manosphere, but stop lying about men Let's continue on with our super chats that are not evil kyla Whatever we're talking about right now. I mean, I know what we're talking about right now But whatever we are talking about it's all gonna come full circle because we've got lots of super chats coming in And if you want this conversation to continue Keep the super chats coming in and we'll continue to read them and we'll continue on So Now I have to scroll up. This is never fun Okay, vosh fan for 1399 canadian. Hey, hey canadian If following someone to continue an argument This is kind of similar to what we just read if following someone to continue an argument when they want it to end Is it physical abuse? then Every girlfriend is it physical abuse then every girlfriend I've ever had should be put in jail Stop gaslighting us You guys are better than this So to be clear, I never said it was physical abuse. I said that he was physically imposing himself And by the way, I would agree that if you're trying to get away from an argument with a girlfriend And she follows you into the next room. I would agree that that's abusive Yes, you have a right to draw space between you and your partner when you feel like you are upset or emotionally dysregulated You absolutely and somebody tells you you don't or if they're trying to impose yourself physical And you had to force you to continue the argument. I would say that's an abusive behavior. Yes All right, over to you aridite that question was for both of you I I mean He basically answered it. Nobody here said abuse. We said physical coercion and if you are following around. Yes, that is bad I believe that almost nobody would be thrown in jail for following somebody around even though it's toxic Just because a behavior is toxic or abusive doesn't mean it's illegal utterly ridiculous Well, let's let's all abuse a behavior should be illegal Well, let's continue on because we will have lots of open discussion I think Involving these super chats and that one was kind of just permanent Pernonence sorry to the last Question there. So vosh fan again for 1399. Canadian. Woo. Canadian. All right. Imagine a hubby refusing to do his agreed chores And telling his concerned wife He'll be back when I'm back and stranding her by taking their vehicle So she can't visit her friends or family lull He adds a lull at the end. So I think that's for Um destiny and erudite. So I'm gonna hand that to you erudite to start Uh, I guess, um Person's never heard of taking an uber or calling a friend which was like part of the conversation. Um I think it's been well said wasn't precisely about the car There is questions that we have to know about the context like is there only one vehicle? Is there a reason why steven felt that he must have the car and why he couldn't take an uber or have a friend pick him up? Um, yeah, I don't know. It's just a silly silly point I also I don't like being misrepresented here. Uh, and I don't appreciate people acting. Uh, otherwise I hate women and if I saw a guy that said that he wanted to leave the house and the woman wouldn't let him take the car I would say fuck that woman. Okay. I don't have an obligation here towards women or or men or hating men or whatever Okay, fuck women if a guy wanted to leave the house and was like, no, you're not allowed to you can't take the car I'm not gonna let you I would say oh that woman seems like she's being really manipulative and controlling the same thing I would with Steven Crowder All right, well, let's continue on Um, do do do Oh my yeah, I gotta scroll up quite a bit ozayan talks. Hey ozayan. How you doing tonight? $10 glad to see you're here Ben Thorpe A man doesn't show aggression to women a woman who is afraid of you and flinches from you does it for a reason Either because of experience or from other men Other men or that man So just summarize that's for you Ben a man doesn't show aggression to women It's the first point a woman who is afraid of you and flinches from you does it for a reason Either because of experiences from other men or that man thoughts on that Ben Yeah, interesting question. I do not think that violence is a good solution except in the most extreme circumstances For men with with their partners or spouses Or with their children. I do think sometimes it's warranted But it's not a good solution and people who are into that now. I will tell you this Women like it and you can say what you want But they like it they like it more than men like it and that's an instinct And they like it aggressive men and they even like violence. I've never understood that but it's there And it is very it's the bad boy. I'm a good boy But I'm seen as a bad boy because in this sphere no one can be any it can be a male at all But I I never have understood it but women love assertive men who And it and it does go into violence And I thought on that on our other side Uh, that's just absolutely not true You see the game the word play being done here with women like aggressive or assertive or confident men That's not the same as being physically abusive women do not like men that hit them Right. So who's who's watching 50 who's buying 50 shades of gray, steven? 50 shades of gray. Is it why was that a huge best seller because it's a fantasy It's a movie and it's a fantasy. Okay. So what where is fantasy located? It's in your mind, right? It's something you desire women are not fantasy is different. Okay. I really like the spider-man and batman movies But I don't jump off of buildings and capes Well, it speaks to you in some way and it does whatever the same way 50 shades of gray might speak to someone It's not that I want to be to the shit out of me. What does it speak to? It speaks to a thirst that women have to be dominated and to be powerless Yes, it does dominated and powerless in a setting with a man that you respect and are extremely physically attracted to Not some loser. That's beating. Yeah, not somebody's beating the shit out of you And you have an explicit contract with as well. Yeah. Well, I okay. Yeah The explicit contract thing is what we all say to make it safe, but it's the non Non-consensual part of it. That's the exciting part of it. I'm not advocating for it But it does it is there and I think it's I think it's a counterbalance to women having too much power in our culture And they don't like it And I think they want to they want to move out of this Like what do you do about like women's abuse shelters where women are Trying to sneak and run away from their abusive partners because they don't know how to get away from these Awful men in their lives. Do you think that these women are just like Secretly lying and they're like are desperately like horny for it and they're just like hoping he'll come get her No, obviously they go to the abuse shelters to get tips from other women for where to find all the good men Well, are you saying that in where there are situations of domestic violence? There aren't women who really feel like that's home for them and they enjoy it even though it's dysfunctional I like you just do you remember Kyla the conversation we had earlier about you provide a fundamental psychological need We'll also like attacking somebody at the same time and you get like yeah, you just like describe I'm not advocating for it. I'm just trying to describe the dynamic perfectly. Yes There are people that can be psychologically abused to such an extent that they also tolerate physical abuse on top of it And it can make the highs that much more exhilarating when the lows are that much more horrible. We call those abusive relationships It's like doing heroin. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I also Is it true that there are people who have received literally zero love in their life? So they'll take a partner who gives them like a small amount of love in exchange for lots of abuse Because it's better than literally anything that they've ever experienced. Yes. That is true that this exists. It's tragic It's awful. It's sad and that doesn't mean that all women want that A lot of women would love to be with a man who is capable of extreme violence Capable of extreme violence Fucking hot and I'm not one of those men, but they love it. They fucking love it. Sorry guys Capable of extreme violence is not the same as deploying extreme violence on your partner Can it is it it's kind of hot that it might get turned on her. I'm not one of those people. I don't own a weapon No, that's what do you think they're more likely attracted to the fact like if we're taking this premise Do you want all attracted to the fact that like they could fuck things up that they're physical specimens that are impressive Or do you think that they're attracted to the fact of like who knows at any moment? He might snap and beat my face and god. I love that. Which do you think it is You respect him a little bit more because he could exert that physical control I'm not advocating for it. I'm just saying like you should talk to women about what to do about this because there is a tremendous Thirst for this and there's really not there's just not that's just not true Yeah, so women really want these little mouse men running around and worshiping them. They do not There should be like there should be a bad there should be a false dichotomy Where it's like I don't think you should beat the shit out of women Oh, so you want everybody to date steven hocking then like what the fuck is this comparison? Holy shit I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not advocating. I'm certainly not advocating for violence. I I don't think it's a good solution I'm a man of peace. I'm not into I don't really understand btsm But I'll tell you it's not men who want to do btsm that I know of I find it exhausting But I've encountered a lot of women who seem like there's no end to how much of that they want to do And you can do research on it Kylie looking things up on the internet. Look it up Look up the fantasies look up when women are being real They will say there's a desire for this and I'm not saying that I have the solution for it But don't tell me that it's men that enjoy hitting women. I think by and large men Just want, you know to be peaceful. I don't think it's women who enjoy being hit. There are men. There are men. Yeah Yeah, I do think there's some problem here That there's a lie going on. Yeah Women are more okay with violence than we give them credit for that's right. I would say that's true All right, well, I'm gonna Are all completely different statements, by the way, none of those things are even like analogous or similar, but sure I'm gonna say I'm gonna step in here and we're gonna keep the super chats going. Uh, you know, keep them coming in You know, we're all for it. We you know, we're having a great discussion here as far as Bouncing these ideas back and forth Uh, so keep those super chats coming in and we'll keep having this discussion go Until somebody needs to use the washroom or do any of this I was just gonna ask a question I've noticed a number of super chats coming in that seem to be assuming that ben is telling the truth about like me and my platform And I realized that the mdd fan base has probably never actually met me before I think I've talked to james a couple of times So I actually haven't been on mdd just so it's clear ben is Abjectly lying about my content. In fact, probably the biggest criticism I get on the internet Is that people sometimes feel like I'm a pick me because I talk so often about men's issues Right like that's like basically my bread and butter that doesn't tell me what I'm not finished talking You lied about the fact that I hate men you lied about the fact that I hate masculinity And none of these things are true and I just want to make it clear So I realize mdd platform. It doesn't actually know me and that's did you accuse me of sexual sexual harassment? Absolutely for a sexual when we were talking about sexual preferences Uh, so it wasn't your preference I accused you of sexually harassing nina because every single time she spoke you kept talking to her You kept asking her sexual questions. She kept telling you please We were talking about sex There was tons of sexual questions you talking about the idea of sex doesn't mean it's an invitation to ask nina specifically about her sexual preferences and making hick like pickup lines and alluding towards her your interest in her And so you can't constantly kept saying these things There was a guy who came on the panel and asked both of us immediately if we squirted and you know, I'm responsible for him No, and I you came on later and said that we like hard dicks inside us Yes, absolutely Say that you're lying. You're lying. You're a the fucking liar. Let's try to have this is more of this anti-masculine She gets to do a whole litany of accusations to me, but I can't come on. Well, let's so now I know what steven krauter feels like Steven, let's talk. Let's talk. Let's uh, let's continue on. Uh, but firstly, uh, let's take care of ourselves Personally if anybody needs a drink of water if anybody needs to use the washroom now is the time and whoever doesn't go I will ask the question to you're all staying All right, cool. Let's continue on I just want to make sure that I'm being considerate of that because I know we're going a little longer than we initially planned So if you need a little refreshment or anything like that feel free Um, so let's continue on everybody Uh Oh my yes, we got to scroll up quite a bit. Thank you all for your super chats here I'm gonna have to get rid of a few of them here. So I stopped going through the same ones All right So sorry, just give me one second. All right. So, uh, vash fan of once again for $13.99 You got a specific currency. You like to spend that in canadian and $13.99 She clearly played it up for the camera saying abuse repeatedly to save the footage for the divorce battle Amber heard 2.0 grace's points are the same good points destiny made the first few days I mean, I would I would say, um, I would say just by in that interaction I would say that he's obviously I think I would say she's throwing him off and he's getting more and more frustrated because he's saying like Her responses are unnatural. So I guess I would say like, yeah, I do think in some ways She was playing to the camera Her responses were not unnatural. It sounded like they were retreading a fight that they'd had many times before Probably that they'd explicitly discussed in therapy. All right. She said she needs space, right? And then she goes She goes, you're abusive, right? If you don't want to get into something with somebody You don't go around calling them abusive and then say, well, I got to go either you engage or you don't She's accusing him of something that's a serious thing to accuse your partner of and then she says I'm leaving. I'm leaving. This is your abuse. It's like calling somebody crazy If you say, you know what? You're acting really crazy There's kind of nothing you can do to defend yourself because if you are acting crazy, you wouldn't know it The reality of the situation is and this is undeniable If one or both parties are emotionally dysregulated, then you have to take space You are never ever ever healthily solving a problem between two people when there is a high degree That's reality. That is that is one of the few piece of advice that I would say What is emotional? What do you say? Dysregulation? What is that? So expressing emotions? If either of you express emotions, you need to take a break from each other. What are you fucking robots? So if you're in it, let's say that you're in a situation where you're really really really hungry. Okay It's like the Snickers commercials. Okay, you're not you when you're hungry Sometimes being hungry can inhibit your cognitive thought process and you get irrationally upset at everything that happens But you said emotional dysregulation So any being angry being angry is a type of emotional dysregulation If you are fighting with a partner and you guys are coming to the level where you're screaming at each other Where you're insulting each other or where you're acting snarky Then your adult brain is taking a backseat to your baby brain that just wants to come out and fight and your ability Problem solved is wait. Wait. Wait. Would you say the same about emotions? So if your partner is feeling really sad and it is crying and is torn up about something Should you take a break because there's emotional dysregulation? Absolutely. If my partner is crying or you should not support them and have them share their emotion. No, no, no, no, no, no, no Hold on support and sharing an emotion is not trying to solve a problem If somebody is incredibly upset and they're crying then the the conversation might be like, hey, it seems like we're you know You're really upset right now. Let's take a walk and talk about this or let's take a break You said take a break. You said hold on any emotional dysregulation. You need to take space from each other That's what you said. I need you to turn off the debate brain for one second I'm just going to listen to what I'm saying. Okay. You are a debate. Let's let's let Steven Wrap up his point there and then we'll let you respond when two people are or one or two people are emotionally dysregulated The ability to solve the problem is gone. Now what you do at that point if it's a conflict Then you probably need to create space But now the example you gave if somebody's crying and needs support then that might look like well We're emotionally dysregulated. We're not going to problem solve right now I'll just support you that would be maybe something you could do to help a partner that's emotionally dysregulated But the crying situation is not where the conflict between the two people It sounds like the one person has a problem with something else and they just need support from their partner But again, it would be the same thing that would apply if they're crying you're probably like, okay I see you're really sorry now, but let's figure what we're going to do to solve this problem It probably like, okay. Hey, let's try to like bring your emotions back in line Go for a walk take a shower watch a movie whatever and then when the emotions come back down Then you go back into problem solving mode So can I just say something that you see when you said if you're really hungry You need a snickers bar that you can't think straight This is the problem with the younger generations You have to be able to be mature enough that when you're feeling emotions to handle them And if you're hungry, you don't need to take a break from life Maybe sometimes you just need to power through instead of immediately satisfying all of your needs That is the most Oh, sorry. I thought you're done. No good. Good. Okay. That is the worst advice You would never give it to anybody in any situation ever you do not try to power through your emotions That is the answer given by somebody that doesn't realize how much their emotions control them Anybody that ever gives that answer has no idea how irrational they could be when they're in an emotional state of mind If you're emotional what you do is you bring your emotions back in line and then you problem solve full stop That's the advice you give to a manager a business owner This is why your relationship is so crazy in your life. That's great. You've never you're you're not going to be successful In relationships in life unless you outgrow this immature. I need to take a break every time you get hungry And you feel like you need a snickers. You need to go take a break and emotionally regulate Give me a fucking break. Stephen talking about anti fragility has almost nothing to do with dysregulation Nor is anywhere Stephen saying that like people should just be anti fragile in the moment that they have like their fee fees Like broken that they should just immediately fall down on the curb and cry. He just said that obviously no, he literally didn't Obviously he used a snickers ad First of all, like bro context clues what we're talking about here is emotional regulation The idea that you should just power through and ignore your feelings is characterized as a form of dysregulation What a healthy form of regulation is say you're feeling upset in a situation is you go I notice that I'm feeling upset and then you figure out whether or not that upsetness is something that you can tolerate And if it is not Absolutely, you should take a break 100 because there's nothing worse than in a conversation That's vital like a major fight with your spouse that you should go. Wow. I'm really dysregulated and angry I don't know if I can keep cap on my emotions and not react as a response Why do you have to keep a cap on your emotions? Why can you not express emotions to your because you're because you're if you're sad if you're happy whatever Yeah, why are emotions negative to express? So emotions aren't negative to express But your partner is not a punching bag for your emotional dysregulation. That's why you keep a cap on certain things What if they cause the emotional dysregulation? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all, right? If so you are responsible for keeping yourself emotionally neutral and you are responsible for you Times yes, you are respond. No, that's the idea. No one has ever said that. No, you're just again You're doing the dichotomy game. I need to find a word. We need to actually have like a buzzword for this So we can just put a cap on it Uh, sprugly boo. Yeah putting a cap on it doesn't mean become neutral and feel nothing and have like false forms of stoicism What it means is things like wow, I noticed that I'm feeling angry Am I so angry that I can't handle this anymore? And if the answer is yes, yes, you should leave That would be the responsible thing to do if the answer is I'm angry But I think that I'm able to talk through my anger and not take it out on my partner. Then that's fine, right? But you say taking it out, but isn't being angry expressing anger You say taking it out But if somebody makes you angry because they did something wrong Is that taking out your anger on that person? Or is that expressing an emotion that they caused within you and it's perfectly healthy So even if somebody made me angry and then I turn around and I start calling them names and telling them that I don't love you and then I'm going to fuck them up. Yes, even though they made me angry It doesn't change the fact that I'm responsible for my actions and my behavior and it's still inappropriate of me Even if they made me angry What if you turn around and yell at them because you're angry and you express your anger like every normal person does Is that not yelling at the problem is whether or not it's what is our here's here's the question What is your goal with expressing the anger in a relationship? What do you think the goal should be? Anger means somebody done has done you something wrong Somebody I'm gonna repeat it. I don't think you heard what I said. Let me repeat it one more time What is the goal of expressing your anger? Okay to show that person that they have caused you this emotion because they did you wrong That's the goal. And what do you want to do with that? Why do you want to show them that? Because they they they did you wrong? So then you're angry because they didn't even either explain themselves or apologize What are we? What are we just born two minutes ago? Kyla Kyla the men who landed on Omaha Beach if they followed your advice they would Step back and I'll talk to each other and analyze I didn't get to respond to grace she just I was in a back up over the herd now You just fucking hijacked us just to make some autistic point about 18 year olds and kill themselves in fucking world war two Okay, let's just watch how we're how we're talking about our other Speakers here tonight, but we will hand it over to Steven Sure. So real quick. So here's something that I noticed was suspiciously absent suspiciously absent from when I asked you What is the goal of showing anger? You said your goal is expressing it because they did something made you mad and you want them to explain themselves or apologize That is not the goal of expressing an emotional relationship The goal should always be to problem solve if your goal is anything else Then your emotions are misaligned with what you should be doing to maintain the relationship If your goal is just make somebody apologize or make them understand how mad you are You're not trying to problem solve and you're just trying to make a healthy better relationship You're just trying to attack somebody I can work with that It is problem solving if somebody does something wrong to you and if you express anger They can react to it and solve that problem by either apologizing or saying no, I didn't do that They're not gonna do that though. They're just gonna get mad back. It's part of human interaction. I don't know Why do you say it's part of you? This is literally human interaction 101 I know this is a fucking debater if I'm arguing with somebody and they're emotionally frustrated. They're upset We're not gonna be able to problem solve just like we're not right now Let's let Steven you know what we are on impasse. We are watching Let's let gray speak Sorry, what do you say great? They're just kidding. They're just kidding. Okay. Let's let's I was gonna say well when everybody's talking, I mean, there's so there there's gonna be a certain amount of delay to the live stream I've got a really good computer here Everyday you got your hand up there. Did you want to say something? Yeah, I just wanted to jump in I think a really big thing that's missing like when I listen to you grace Is that like when you think anger you think the only risk that you think anger means must be yelling But the answer is feelings don't dictate how you need to react to them That is what emotional regulation is where you go. Dang I noticed that I'm feeling angry like I had a fight with somebody just recently And I noticed I was really really angry after the fight So rather than calling them back up and screaming and calling them names because at the end of the day My goal in my relationships is to have healthy positive relationships That's what my goal is and part of that means solving problems and part of that means being hurt, right? Yeah, I calling hold on me calling them and screaming at them and saying nasty things to them Isn't going to make them hurt and it isn't going to make my relationship better So instead I went for a run and I yelled into the air and I did all that I needed to do to externalize my emotions But that doesn't mean that just because I'm angry that I don't need to verbalize that directly at somebody else I think let me take this one. I would just like to propose. I don't know your background and I'm not interested in critiquing your life I'm sorry if I if I went too far in that But there are a lot of people Who have experienced trauma who come up with a solution like yours that I think isn't about relationships It's about control. You never want to be out of control I'm not saying you necessarily but especially there are females who have experienced a lot of trauma males too Who just want to have control so they never get out of control because it made them feel vulnerable I'm sorry It's called life. It's called relationships and a life where you have total control That it seems like you're trying to Yourself go for and advocate for others is a life that is not worthy of the name of life The drama yes, it can get out of control. Yes, it could be too much. Yes, it could be inappropriate. It can cause harm But it's the it's also emotions are what makes life worth living. It's the color. It's the it's the fragrance It's it's the it's the joy like you're not going to have any joys if you have this kind of and I get it You want to analyze everything so you'll never be in those places again? I'm just conjecturing a lot of people do that It is a mistake Yes, reflect but don't turn into a robot who can't hurt again. You might get hurt again All of you out there watching you might get hurt. You might get hurt in relationships. I've been hurt But you can't turn it off and gain control. It's not gonna work Emotions play a role in physical combat and they play a role in things like solving problems in a relationship And I agree for example All men should probably have a mature theory of violence Men need to know how their anger causes them to want to do violence How they need to respond to that how to respond to different situations that might cause violence And how they should de-escalate or possibly escalate in different situations where violence may be required That is a that is a dialing of their own emotional system to help them guide through what is the correct decision That's not an indication of their anger or their frustration or their fear It's using these emotions to make informed decisions just like in problem solving You can use emotions. For example, like I said, you know anger tells you that you might be feeling disrespected The problem is sometimes you're angry not for a good reason Sometimes somebody makes you mad and it's your stuff. There's no reason for you to be mad, right? Absolutely reason why in the cases of dying interpersonal dynamics between men and women Men have to be more careful about losing control because they're more likely to do physical harm And society is afraid when strong men lash out Yeah, but you know, but you know why they lash out kyla a lot of times It's because they don't deal with their emotions and they don't express them and it gets bottled up and it explodes So men need to have they just power through you're right. They do that and that's really toxic for them You're twisting what i'm saying. I didn't say just power through and don't have emotions I'm saying sometimes saying that if you want to fucking stickers bar like steven here wanted That sometimes if you have other obligations that those You don't need to like find you make sure I see always when I I see young people today They're constantly hydrating themselves leave the goddamn water bottle alone and do what you're doing And you don't have to play video games while you're talking with another human being. Sorry steven. Just focus I Everything related this conversation is so insane because if you were to talk to anybody with a healthy relationship Any therapist any like literally any any woman any person ever They will tell you that in a relationship the best types of people to be with are people that can communicate Emotions without demeaning a partner attacking a partner screaming at a partner. These are the best people to have relationships with They're the best problem solvers not only actually fuck relationships relationships are gay We don't even talk about relationships. This is true of leaders as well This is true of managers in a business environment. This is true of ceo's a company you read how to win friends and influence people There's not like chapter 14 how to call your boss a raging fucking piece of shit and show everybody how mean you are There's no no book on leadership or commanding people will ever be like that Okay, well You just you won't find those are not the that's not the habits of effective leaders Nobody's That's the only thing in their book You just said steve jobs one of the most successful corporate executives ever in history. Okay And and I probably think he was an asshole But he was a great, you know, he was a great innovator, right steven He had a good product with the iphone. Well, he wasn't a failure of a human being His relationship was failed. His interpersonal relationships after him ever Wasn't steve jobs like alienated from his family and his daughter and everything and death Well, I okay, but okay, all right We're modeling our relationships after I understand that a lot of driven men And alienate people and be too driven and lack a kind of understanding of you know, the softer side of life Okay, but if a woman marries a man like that She's gonna she's gonna you know, she gets the benefits, but she's also got to deal with them The man of city with the downsides of her maybe leaving and then getting alimony child support That's part of your role as a man, then I guess if that's what we're gonna say how men run their relationships And that's going to be how they run their divorces. Well, I don't see steven krauters doing any of that stuff I think he's You know totally engaged in a normal way and kyla can portray it as him being a baby But that's just emasculating another man for no reason. I think you I think you need to put a cap on your emotions And uh, stop yelling at me because this feels really abusive right now If you were telling me that in sincerity, do you know what I would do? I would say, okay, I'll stop yelling It actually why are you yelling in the first place? Why are you using in the first? Didn't I literally send you a dm this morning saying like, uh, I'm sorry if I came off too harsh or whatever Like I won't be poking or prodding you on that something I actually literally send you that message morning. So I do do this. What? No, you are a very I'm not saying you're not a nice guy. You're a very nice guy. No, but what I'm saying is by your own logic I'm saying you're wrong. It's fine for you to yell, but you're saying it's wrong for you to yell We have a different type of relationship where random people screaming at each other on the internet If you were my daughter or not to poke at your relationship But like if you're my daughter or if you're like my wife or if you were like a parent I wouldn't be talking to you the same way. There's gonna be a different context for those conversations Yeah Steven when I I can say I witnessed you walking, uh, Who is that woman not? Kiddology you walked her through setting up her obs on her computer You you were incredibly patient and yet, you know, it's sort of a masculine thing. So you're saying go here go here I had no critique whatsoever. I thought you were just like amazingly generous towards her in that circumstance You you weren't yelling at her you were guiding her through it. You understood that she had some limitations And and it's not because she was female. It's just because you know, whatever she was novice So and I think that's true of both of you from what I've seen But I think in this area, what are you guys doing? Like why are you both just like telling us that we're like nice people and stuff like that like all of this like I don't know. Sorry about the other stuff. Yeah, it feels a little slimy and manipulative. I'm not gonna lie Like I'm why don't you accuse me of sexual harassment manipulated? Keep playing How about if I say you look at Kyla? Let's avoid the prior discussion because as we've already discussed that's not what we're here to talk about So we'll continue on with our super chats. All right Uh, let's scroll on up because I appreciate everybody in the live chat for coming out and putting the The super chats in because we have a quite a few of them to go through So we do have a lot of conversation that's going to keep happening and I see you there You're putting more in there. Stop it. We'll be here all night. Okay. Keep going. All right So I have a personal question here destiny. We can just skip it. It's from vosh fan It's related to your relationship. They're asking questions. So we can just skip that if you want It well, I mean like is it a question of like, how do I live with myself getting cucked on a daily basis? Or is it a question? It's like relevant to the conversation. I'm curious. I want to know about your cucking Maybe it's kind of related to All right, I'm gonna read it then. All right, vosh fan 699 canadian destiny has never raised his voice at malina During an argument and malina has never continued an argument which destiny wanted to stop Right Well, I don't understand what the implication is there are mistakes that I've made in my relationship And there are things that I do that are probably abusive. That's absolutely true Do you think there are also times where I've lied to people There are I used to steal from McDonald's when I watched them from the cash register. I've made mistakes in my life I'm not going to say anything because I've made a mistake that we ought to do it There are things that I recognize as mistakes if you were to ask me the next question What are things you're trying to improve in your relationship? I would say I try to communicate better I try to resolve problems quicker and I'm sure they say we go for malina She tries to give me some space when she's supposed to resolve a dispute And we try to like communicate in a healthier way with each other like these are things that we're constantly working on We're not trying to be more aggressive towards each other or more conflict oriented towards each other Like just because I make mistakes or my wife might make mistakes doesn't mean I'm saying that those mistakes are good They're recognized as mistakes I mean, yeah, this is like max chattered energy where it's just like If you're giving the ideal situation of how relationships go that means you've never done anything wrong Ever you're in your entire relationship, right? Yeah, like imagine you're playing league of legends only you should try to get 10 cs a minute It's like why would you say that when last scan you only had 100 cs at 20 minutes and you died seven times Like oh never mind. I guess that's what you're supposed to do. Like I don't understand that Yeah, I don't know your nerd language I have no idea All right, well, we can continue on Let's see here now if you didn't see off to the side here I can see that there's a thousand people watching tonight and there's only 250 likes So I don't know if you've got arthritic wrists or what's going on there That's my usual go-to dad joke, but like, you know Maybe you got some like real problems with your thumbs, but it's right below this video You hit the like button and it it does help but not as much as sharing out the video And once again, thank you to everybody here for showing up and it looks like aerodites gave Given herself a mustache there with her own hair very stylish Excellent, uh, that's that's the look right there. So let's continue on with our super chats and um, I will say Anyone's that's sending in a super chat that is personal. I am going to check with each debate debater before we talk about it I know we are talking about relationships and behavior and stuff like that Uh, use that term because uh, we are going to read a super chat that is involving that So once again, try to keep the super chats, uh, you know light and loose and not attacks against our speakers You're welcome to give us any attacks at least me. Well, I I'll read them, but uh to a certain degree So same cloth five dollars. What's the relationship you've seen slash had with your parents grace and ben I'm seeing you leaving space for narcissistic behavior Uh, so we'll we'll start with you ben. Uh, if you want to talk about Your relationship with your parents, that's up to you. No, no, I think I think that I think the question is saying What is your relationship with grace com uh with your parents comma? Uh Right. Oh, no, I think it's to me. I was gonna say it just says grace and ben So I think they're asking each of you so it's up to you. It's a personal question. You can choose not to answer I think they're asking ben. What's your relationship with your parents and grace yourself? So if you don't want to answer that we can just I'll answer Oh, I used to have a very contentious my parents were divorced And uh, I used to have a contentious relationship with both of my parents, but especially with my father And I do advocate for men To reconcile with their fathers doesn't mean they have to be right. It suggests you leave peterson point But he is absolutely right You've got to find your your peace with your father and your father in heaven and you will find All of the problems in life can be resolved absolutely necessary But we still have contention. He's in the middle of trying to sue me Jesus all right, um Any other comments on that before we get into more trouble? Yeah, I mean I can answer that question. I've seen uh, my parents I mean Yes, I would say my dad is firm with my mom and my mom got overwhelmed and she I mean it is personal But she left my family about six weeks ago and Hasn't come back. So she did the same kind of thing running out and leaving her responsibilities behind But just because something similar doesn't mean it's not doesn't mean it's projection But yes, there are similarities for me Okay All right. Well, let's continue on and I got to scroll up again on my notepad because who doesn't pay for microsoft word And has two two thumbs this guy. That's right. I really should all right. So, uh moving on Ben Thorpe A man Doesn't show aggression to oh, no, I think I've read that haven't I yeah, I think we do Yeah, yeah, I scrolled up too far. This happens every once in a while I I said I get rid of these like I I delete them, but then I didn't Uh, yeah, let me scroll way down Perfect. Dr. Akko five dollars. There are obviously good and bad Expressions of anger weightlifting is a good expression of anger beating a poem All right, that got me. I'm so sorry All right, so sorry dr. Akko you got super chat of the night. It's only five dollars Beating a what way and I didn't hear the right. I didn't hear the joke. What was the joke? He didn't say it I'm building up to it. I'm so sorry. I lost it before I said it There are obviously good and bad expressions of anger weightlifting is a good expression of anger beating up homeless people is bad simple Okay, that is I didn't expect to read that Well way to state that All right, now let's just uh, let me just wipe the tears in my eyes. All right All right, stay curious five dollars It's easy to tell that the mod doesn't care to control the convo When he said there will be q and a 30 minute ago and the debate is still happening. Well, I mean Ouch, we wanted to keep going. You know coming after your personal relationships next. That's called out That's fine. That's fine. I'm not too worried about it. I hate ryan Yeah, let's just say I'm a nice guy, but I you know, I think I think things have rolled along pretty good and You know, I think you've done a great job. Well, thank you. I was going to say I appreciate that and You know, as long as the conversation wants to keep rolling and everybody's engaged We got a thousand people watching right now. So I mean You know, I'm not doing too bad over in my corner here. I'm having a good time hanging out and talking with james And whatnot. What are you doing in the live chat? That's right. That's right Coming at you now. All right $1.99 from dca. Is ben divorced. Oh my goodness. Sorry. This is personal question. Personal question Ben I should have alerted you. I deleted all the other ones and I forgot to screen this before I started reading So we can read it if you'd like. Oh, yeah, and it's yeah Is ben divorced his daughter and wife didn't say much His daughter and wife I'm not sure about that second part, but if you want to just talk about the first part Yeah, so I actually went through a similar circumstance where there was, you know, a kind of failure Uh, I would say on the on on my on my spouse's part because of prior psychological problems and I did talk with destiny about this a little bit Because he comes from a catholic background, but everyone's pretty much familiar There is there's another possibility other than divorce or like staying in That's falling apart Which I think was Crowder's kind of point and that is that you could explore whether At the time you took the vows that maybe there was something missing That you didn't think was missing at the time And I think it's a much healthier option because then no one has to be blamed And you know It's seen as a backdoor divorce, but that is not what it is My guess is that's what happened here in the Crowder situation And I and I think it can be a wonderful solution and a real solution That avoids the guilt and blame that you see worked out here, but both parties have to want to do it that way I don't doubt that Hilary Crowder went into this marriage fully You know wanting to do she didn't go into it to do this to him, but I think she lost Something was missing is my guess Do you think that it was like more of like a team effort? What was their marriage? Disappointing it could be on both sides, but something has funded Yeah, maybe they both weren't ready and I I know that they were both married as virgins or they claim to be virgins and there's a problem Though I think that in many ways is good, right? You can understand it It's like, you know you too are bonding in a certain way I think a lot of people go into that and they don't have enough support of a support network Of a way of working out things and it can become kind of a torture chamber Even a wealthy person, you know and it kind of especially a wealthy right-wing person They can't let the cracks show, you know, they can't they can't say like i'm having problems They can't they you know there has to be this facade and I think a lot of times You know that it just it just becomes hell. He said I have a boot on my neck You know and I think they probably both did in some ways have a boot on their neck Of of just being in a in a and so I don't think marriage is supposed to be a torture chamber If there's something seriously wrong, but people have to be honest and I think It could be that they're both dishonest it could be that one right kyle It could be that one person's being dishonest and saying, uh, it's your fault All right, let's continue on with our super chats and uh, yeah, you leave me alone in that super chat over there I'll do what I want. I'm Nova Scotian We're badass. All right Uh, this one's towards you kyle. It's kind of like a personal comment as well. Do you want to read it? All right, go for it. It's a compliment says kyla's blush looks so good. That is all Faced. Yeah. Well, there you go. I was gonna say, uh Always nice compliments ride for ten dollars Do destiny and kyla believe that a victim Uh is abusive Sorry, do kyla do destiny and kyla believe that a victim is abusive when they fight back against their abuser This video clearly showed steven crowder defending himself against his wife's abuse I think anyone sorry go ahead. I was gonna say you can be mutually abusive. Yeah, sure Yeah, I don't know if we have enough information here to say that's clearly what was going on, but it's possible to be Yeah, I think people need to be really careful about saying anything was really clear, uh in that video Um, there's like some things that look pretty obvious of like being unhealthy And then there's a lot of things that are going to be ambiguous Um, I don't know if it's clear to me that steven was just like the victim of abuse from hillary All right, let's continue on because we got a lot of super chats still to read through Uh, so marie woods Two dollars. Why is ben? That's also a personal thing, but you know, why he's asking why is ben so fragile? So they feel like you've been fragile during the debate ben I I don't have I I don't know what they're referring to All right, we'll just continue on from there. I I think they were trying to Rile us back up again. Well, if I if I can just say one thing about that And I got in a discussion with this with kyla and this wasn't like anything that's contentious, but um, I think that Sometimes men who express emotions and clearly within this like I think we all take it with a grain of salt Are seen as weak or fragile or woman-ish or these kinds of things I think that's crazy And I think that men who are emotionally expressive are Uh, healthy people there are men who are less or more, you know, keyed up emotionally But I I don't think there's anything wrong with it being expressive emotionally unless it, you know It's sort of immature like you're acting like a child Or abusive. Yeah true Yeah, all right. Well, let's continue on Marriage causes divorce for five euros Steven has lost his money House and kids in divorce Hillary was asked to use an uber who has really been used and abused I don't know if any of us have any information about divorce proceedings and how they're being finalized yet That's still something that's being actively litigated. It's my understanding Yeah, my understanding is in the article at least they talk about how she's been living in a townhouse separate from the main house So if I don't know, no, that was even Okay, but that's fair regardless. It's not clear who's getting what possessions It would probably be half All right, we have no idea. I don't know what pre-existing paperwork there was. I don't know what assets she brought into the marriage I don't know how well of her family is. I don't know if she's been earning money or not. We have no idea Greenups. Yeah, what'll be the marital? possessions Or you can guess but well, let's continue on there Um Scrolling up here. So avash stampede for five dollars challenge question to thorps Grace thorp can a person express anger calmly? We'll start with that and we'll Let you answer that and we'll then we'll uh complete the second part So to you grace can a person express anger calmly and if you could elaborate on that for our super chatter there You can I think you can express anger calmly but you can also express it in a way where you're yelling and you're animated and you're invested and I I think the contentious thing is like that Destiny and eryada are saying that's wrong but showing it in a Moderate way is right and I'm saying well, there's different ways to show it. Both are equally Acceptable and in different contexts would make sense Okay, so the second part of that was to you ben So ben how is kyla lying? Provide proof please of your claims if you want to remind the live chat When that accusation was made and why? We'll try to keep that quick So do you remember uh, she she she lied a few times or or twisted things a few times, but I don't remember what it was Well, you know, that's an interesting point because I've had this a lie can be a misrepresentation of something that is true Right like in the garden of Eden the devil says Surely you will not die if you eat of the fruit was he lying Not technically because they didn't die But the the most dangerous kind of lie the worst kind of lie is one which actually technically isn't you know Isn't just a total lie, right? Even things like stereotypes genocides are based on some kernel of truth About the group that you're talking about and it's it's an exaggeration rather than an outright lie Like you can't think of I don't know if you can think of a stereotype Where it's just an outright fabrication It's going to be based on something and then that's what's very dangerous though So are you walking back that I lied and you're saying now that I just like was hyperbolic No, I would call those lies the devil is the father of lies the prince of lies All right. Well, um I guess I should ask is there any comment on that uh on your side guys On what on what constitutes a lie or yeah, I was gonna say, uh, is there any other comments on that or do you want to just continue on? I don't think I have any comments on it. All right. Let's go. Don't have any proof of me lying, Stephen You know when I when I want to go at it But but I will say if you take a lie as a fabrication, then you have not lied I completely Can see that all right. I'm just making sure that we uh, you know got down to the meat of what the super chatter was I'm cleared of charges All right, excellent Kyle james. Thank you for your membership for six months. Awesome. You've been here almost as long as I have $10 Ben you and I both know that Steven Crowder wasn't abusive He was a pansy little girl If Steve was a real man like you tell the audience how you would have properly dealt with his wife Yeah, you know, that's interesting if you say like so, how should he have done it? I think he did a great job. I don't know I I think he should have been more suspicious that she was setting him up But this is the problem with men. We're nice We don't think that a woman while we're working in building something for them Is trying to figure out and consulting with evil people like this yasha ali On how to destroy us and they do do that and she I think in this case Did do that. She set him up. She did that right in front of the camera She timed it perfectly so she'd get alimony and I think for a couple of years She'd been cooking this whole thing up and men generally don't think women are capable of that and they are Well, I I know I I think erinite this was kind of her point about like 9d chess But it like that that's not really possible that you'd think about that stuff But women do check out of relationships way earlier than men check out of them before they're actually over Because I think it's kind of natural like Because women are contingent on men Once you realize a relationship is coming to a close the the woman generally checks out of it earlier and looks for another Uh support whether it's a man or whatever So I do think it's quite possible that she checked out and was actively You know whether super super consciously or not she was saying like I see that this is over And I'm making plans for the future. I do think that's quite and there is some evidence of that Although I don't think he was accusing her of like being um What's the term of sexually infidelity? But when he if you if you read carefully, I mean if you watch it carefully, you'll see he says the man that you see The woman comes we have no idea what was being said there. That's it's like an audible I'm just saying I'm let's go Steven elaborate We we gave a bunch of time over to that side. Well, I'm just saying that way Yeah, there's like a there's a vague line like when when mothers or men come back to their mothers or whatever There's like a weird but the it's not captioned and it's really hard to hear those sayings I don't think we can speculate but it does it does say the man that you see and then when And then when she says I'll just say another piece of evidence I'm saying when when when she says oh should I call a friend to pick me up I think there's an implication there because he reacts so strongly to it Is that a threat and I think she's basic It's hard not to read it as her saying so you want me to call Whatever the guy's name is to come pick me up and I I doubt you know a pregnant woman It's it's kind of inconceivable that she's going to be Someone in that state is going to be sexually but still that there was a relationship That somehow connected with this yasha alley scumbag Um that could have literally just been maybe she's talked shit to friends before about steven crowded That could have been yeah, yeah, we had no idea right But someone who he's like I don't want you spending time with this person because maybe it's an emotional affair Where this person is sort of fermenting her in her sort of victim mentality you could see the narrative there, right? I mean you can't dismiss that No, it's just it's a wide reach. Yeah Like I wouldn't assume that's true. It could be it doesn't even maybe it's plausible But I wouldn't just like outright make that a well there are things that don't add up here Like why would he say I can't call my friends if you take the car that doesn't make sense But it's maybe he means like call his friends to go over. They're just mad. He's just saying random shit. It could have misspoken literally Well, I can't be here. He said I can't be here It could have been because of covet maybe because of a surgery He had to be like maximally isolated for a certain amount of time so you couldn't like see friends or family like But I don't know. It's just weird. It's just weird what I'm saying is you can read it You can read it in this way You could read it one way to paint. Hillary is this like nefarious actor who is plotting two years in advance Yeah, I don't really know what you mean grace with like women check out first I don't know if you're talking about like how women initiate divorces first I'm not really sure what you're citing there is like Women always check out of relationships or consistently check out of relationships first. I'm not really sure where that's coming from I think it's generally true because women are contingent on men for like generally for financial support that if they realize A relationship is going downhill or if they intend to end the relationship They emotionally check out earlier so that they can emotionally and whatever else support like connected somebody else to be their support So that's why I would say when she's talking with him at that point that it had gotten to that point So he's still emotionally invested whereas she's kind of like You can see she's cold to a level where she doesn't even really get riled up She's just like wants to get out of there, right? She's checked out. I'm that's the that's the point I was making I think it's possible that she could have been in that place Yeah, I think that's true Look for plan b possibly plan b like she was calm and highly submissive I don't know if I would agree that she was like clearly checked out. She was avoidant She was trying to get away But I don't know if I would be like you can tell that she was just like emotionally disengaged from the situation I would say that that's like Definitely not true There's like definitely times where you hear kind of like pleading and stuff like that That it seems like she's like pretty emotionally connected to the situation. She's just Maybe at worst highly avoidant and wants to get away from the situation Yeah, the problem is we have no idea how these two normally resolve conflicts So you have no idea how to read that if you saw me acting that way in a fight I could still be totally plugged in if Molina was acting that way in a fight She's probably one foot out the door because Molina tends to be more emotional fights And I tend to be more like all zone out or I'll be avoidant So you have no idea in looking at like a person's reactions Like if they've completely checked out or not because we don't know how they normally resolve conflict So I don't think it's fair to say like she's ready to run No, you can't guess you truly don't know you have no idea what's going on Well, you guys felt free to guess and Kyla called No, hold on She's got a piece of shit Because some of the behavior that he's exhibiting is clearly a piece of behavior No, it isn't clearly. No, it isn't All right We already you already conceded that we won the debate So why Oh, it's true My bad, I forgot My bad We forgot We forgot Several L's We've got several W's over here Let's continue I'm sorry guys Without any direct declaration from either side Let's continue always our super chats because we got lots of them Keep them coming in I mean nobody has said anything about having to go yet So I mean everybody seems to be having a good time You can let me know Yeah, all right We'll continue on as we are Psych or for ten dollars you guys are all misunderstood They're not talking about abuse They're talking about Crowder's abuse When he's using his abs to persuade his wife Biggest misunderstanding on modern day debate Psych or Well, let's continue on from there No comprendo Yeah, all right He's he's making jokes. It's fine Brian Stevens Two dollars. Thank you so much Sometimes It is warranted Horrific So when he says sometimes it is warranted He's talking about violence So I think he's quoting something that I you said yep So I think you got some thoughts there Ben Yes, I know that people said a man should never lay his hands on a woman Right now would Steven and Kyla both agree with that No, because now you're going to say what if a woman is trying to murder all 70 or children Or a woman is running on her way to push the button to fire the nukes to Russia And I guess you should probably kill a bitch That's right Yeah, so yeah, I won't make that mistake again Or she's basically assaulting other people Yes Steven, if you're in a debate, maybe you shouldn't use terms like always and never True, absolutely Because you might be debating the most pedantic motherfucker on earth Don't make that mistake. I got it. Don't worry. I'm here. I'm here for you These are tips for you Steven Steven, we don't need to do that I got it We don't need to do that Well, you know, you guys have like difficulties with emotions If I compliment Kyla, she says I'm a scumbag If I correct her because she's been lying She's all she's acts like a victim And she goes, oh, I guess I'm being exonerated Why don't you learn how to behave like a mature person? You're saying we guys and then everything you said is targeted against me It sounds like this is just between me and you Well, Steven does his little thing like, oh, whatever you need from me Let's try to now Steven's catching the strings Make our comments towards our other speakers who have respectfully chosen to be here tonight I appreciate that They've given us a great opportunity Yes, in the live chat as well and the speakers on the panel We're going to do our best to keep our discussion about Is Steve Crowder innocent? And that's what we've been talking about So let's continue on with our super chats I'm trying to copy and paste here as I go, everybody So bear with me Alan for $20, there's four layers All right, you can all hear me. That's good Alan, $20 There's four layers What is said, what they mean, subtext and context A person can say I don't love you And it can sound like an attack or a genuine expression I feel like this argument keeps jumping between those four layers And to specify the four layers that Alan put in his $20 super chat This is a $20 super chat, so we'll give it some attention here Four layers is what is said, what they meant, subtext and context Let's kick it over to Steve and to start Yeah, I don't disagree, but I guess it's hard I can't tell with our interlocutors here Like how much of this needs to be explicitly laid out Because it seems like they want to dance between a lot of these different types of subtexts Like if you're in therapy with a significant other And you're trying to work through problems And you're like, listen, I don't know if I love you anymore That's a lot different than being in the middle of an argument Like, I don't love you anymore Which is also a lot different than being in a serious discussion outside of therapy But like, I don't think I love you anymore All of these things are completely different But the context that is being said with Crowder and his wife It's not being said in a way to genuinely convey an emotion It's not being said in a way to resolve conflict or anything It's being said as an aggressive point of attack To try to trigger the other party Because they're just looking to attack each other Or at the very least, Steven Crowder's looking to go like, hello, Crowder I totally disagree with that She goes, she goes, I love you, I'm committed to you He goes, I don't love you That's the big problem You've never shown me love You just, I don't exactly remember But he says something like, you just show You just say you love me, but you don't show it You don't do A, B, C, and D How is that him trying to, like, I think when we say A, B, C, and D, he missed trying to hurt somebody Violence, right? How is that trying to hurt her? He's pointing out an issue in their relationship He says that's the big problem He's literally trying to solve a problem I don't see how you could possibly say that's like a pointed attack to hurt her So if I say, if I'm in a big fight with Nick, right? And Nick says, Kyla, I still love you And I go, I don't love you And I've never experienced love from you Do you think that that's going to, like, feel good? Or do you think that might be, like, super hurtful for him? Who cares what feels like? What if it's true? Well, she was literally just talking about harm She was just talking about harm, which is about, like, feelings, right? Well, can I, can I ask a question? You're a loser Well, yeah, your feelings aren't the most important thing, Kyla Well, if you say something purposefully to hurt somebody's feelings That, that's, that I would say that's wrong to do But if you say something that's true That ends up hurting somebody's feelings Because they don't want to, it's a hard reality That doesn't make it abusive Well, what about this? Steven Crowder seemed like he was trying to communicate An uncomfortable truth that they needed to work through Yes, yes, he did Absolutely, he did He didn't raise his voice? I mean I still don't understand that if you guys think this Because you guys want to do this So if you want to think this, that's fine But then why are you mad at Hillary for leaving? Why would you stay with somebody that doesn't love you anymore? Because she needed to make sense of her situation Stop, I need you to answer that question Why should she have stayed there? Why you have said that she left? I did answer it Well, how was her make, she made sense of this situation He said he didn't love her, so she left Isn't that what she should do? She, she needs to make, there's a little more to it No, there's not Yes, there is What? He doesn't love her anymore She should just leave Well, he's saying, okay So is this abusive to say to someone You say you love me But your actions We're not talking about that right now You're not seeing Oh, yes we are No, we're not He said, I don't love you anymore So she should be like, okay And then he said, wait, then he clarified it by saying You say you love me And I ask you to do A, B, C, and D And you don't do any of them I think that is a perfectly philosophically Astute point If love does not manifest itself in action But you just keep saying I love you, I love you, I love you That is not love, that is manipulation Sure, but why would you do one thing For someone to point that out is perfectly fine Sure, but why do anything for somebody that doesn't love you anymore? You should just leave At that point it's over He's going to try it He's going to try to make him There's a major crisis here No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no That's not a crisis That's the relationship is over I don't love you anymore Oh, okay, fine Then we're done Divorce You think relationships are, I mean I don't know exactly what he meant by that I don't feel love towards you I think that's what he meant That's not the same thing as love Oh, okay, so now we're gonna Now we're getting hyper subtextualizing The everything, okay Well, yeah, because if you define love I don't know, Steven It's called interpretations What we're doing If you say love is wanting the best for somebody else I don't think he's saying I don't want the best for you But if you interpret love as like I feel connected towards you And like, we're working together Just so it's clear We're not, we're not talking about What happened between Steven Crowder anymore We're just like Yes, we're just making up stuff We're just making up shit I wouldn't have a problem if you said I hate you, Hillary I hate you Different contexts I wouldn't have a problem with him saying I hate you for what you were doing I wouldn't have any problem with him saying that I'm gonna be totally honest I hate you Is probably a less hurtful statement to a partner Than saying I don't love you Well, you know what really sucks Is someone saying I love you While they're preparing to destroy you And I think that's what was going on there Okay And playing to a camera Yeah, he was Oh Let's continue on with our super chat All right, so Let's scroll up Brutally honest That's kind of a personal attack Two euros, thanks for your donation That's great Three thousand Wait, who is that a personal attack on? Towards Ben and we're not gonna do it Three thousand GTV are four Five dollars What are Grace and Ben's opinions on inter-family relationships And the implication of that power dynamic That's a strange question Inter-family? That would mean between families Intra-family be within As I say, if you want to just skip this one, we can I'm sure they're meeting within families I think, yeah, they're asking what your opinion is On inter-family relationships So That would be between families I don't know what that means Intra-family I'm sure that's what they're talking about Yes, they're probably not being pedantic about words So they're using words inaccurately and then that's abusive also They're being very naughty by using words inaccurately Yes, that's true I think what they're implying I mean It's called the English language, you should respect it We can just skip this one Because I think once again we're going into Territory I wouldn't know what it would mean Intro, what are you talking about? I would say what I think they mean What is power dynamics really? I think what the host is trying to say is It sounds like they're making an incest joke That's what it sounds like they're saying I will just say you, yes That is what it sounds like they are trying to imply there So we can just skip that because I don't think that's relevant No, we can skip that Fuck you for saying that, whoever said that Well, let's Fuck you people for not, for not pushing back on that All that, we're not going to We're just going to move past it Thank you Psychor, $10 You guys are all misunderstood They're not talking about abuse They're talking about Crowder's abuse We already read that Let's move on I might have copied and pasted that once or twice Because I'm trying to keep an eye on this live chat Because you guys keep putting more in there And I got to keep copying pasting them Before I lose them Because they escape me if I don't All right Killianne for $20 I have been married for 20 plus years And have never yelled At my wife or called her name in disagreement We have a fantastic relationship And screw like teenagers Thorpe's our relationship Yeah, I'm not going to read the rest of that But they're basically saying They've got a great relationship And they don't think that You're representing relationships well So you can comment on that I, that's cap You've been married for 20 years You've never yelled at your wife That's not possible I think it's possible You've never raised your voice At the woman that you share your life with There are plenty of people that have relationships like that Never Yeah, there are tons of people that have Totally boring and healthy relationships I got absolutely And there are a lot of people that yell And have problems too Just depends on the dynamic Yeah, there's different personality types It's possible But I doubt it Do you never yell at your I would ask him Do you ever yell at your kids either Or that's also You've never yelled at your kids Because everybody yells at their kids There's lots of families There's different styles There's different cultures There's different cultures I mean, okay Remember Grace, we used to go and see the At the beach, we used to see the Sometimes the Guatemalan families They just seemed very placid They didn't seem Yeah, but sometimes they yelled at their kids Well, whatever Yeah, sure I'm sure they didn't mean that literally But All right, let's Let's Continue on Five euros from I That's a great Black Sabbath tune, by the way It's very hard to find But if you just type in the letter I In Black Sabbath, great song All right, can the pro-crowder team Answer if they think Hillary is abusive In the clip And give a specific example Uh, yeah, I mean Well, I would say to me She seems disengaged She lies to him She says she's committed to him Which is just a way of Making herself look better And driving him crazy By not responding to the Genuine problems he's pointing out By just saying pious phrases To make him feel like he's the bad guy And he's yelling at her When she wasn't committed Divorced him a couple months later And I don't think she's Necessarily recognizing what she's doing But I would say it is abusive It's He never She never responded to anything That he said Yeah And then she accused him of abusing How is he gonna respond When she accuses of him Steven, Steven, this is abusive What are you supposed to say at that point? What can a man possibly say? So wait So she disengaged, lied to him Accused him of abuse And that's like clear evidence Do you guys feel like it's clear Or like how confident are you in this Like percentage? I'm just not sure And I'm not asking that condescending I just don't know how strongly You think that she abused him 100% And shut down Abusive Abusive in the sense that you're miss Yes, the sense that I don't think she's intentionally trying to harm him Well, actually, I mean, I guess I actually do Because she was aware of the camera So, you know, I'm trying to be generous But like I do believe she was aware of that camera And saved that clip So if you have to If you look at it through that perspective Then yes, it's abusive She's trying to wind her husband up Being abusive Yes, in some ways, yes So you just changed it You said 100% How sure are you that this was abusive Now you're saying she's 100% abusive No, no, no, no Not she was being abusive 100% Was all of her activity 100% 100% abuse? No Right, you believe You believe Because that's the clarification You believe that she was being abusive 100% So like being disengaged Lying and accusing him of abuse is enough Is sufficient for her to be abusing him But him like Saying I'll fuck you up I don't love you And like being uncompromising Isn't him being abuse I'm not really understanding these two The answer to the question is yes Right, yes Within the context of her sitting there Framing him Driving him crazy to make him look bad And disengaging herself personally And then using that clip against him Two years later Yes, it's abusive Damn Okay But him like being pressuring Or like moving his body in ways Where she's feeling physically coerced Or like being unwilling to compromise With her on anything Saying things like I don't love you And you never show me any love Trying to pressure her to stay home When she wants to leave Not really being okay with her leaving Those things Right, those are not abusive Not abusive Is there any example Can we think of an example of a man being abusive Where he's not hitting the person Yeah Can you give me an example I'm just curious Taking out your anger at somebody For something they didn't do somebody else did to you Like lashing out at them to take your anger out Something like that So as long as There's obviously a bunch of examples So as long as the thing you're complaining About actually happened You have carte blanche to express That any way you want As long as you don't hit the person You mean having a disproportionate reaction Yeah, sure, that's true I told my son once I was in a stressful situation He got a yo-yo from Toys R Us When it still existed and it broke And I told him to throw it out And throw himself out while he was at it That's abusive, definitely I apologize to him Why would that be abusive? Five minutes later Because I was just frustrated by the situation And there was a lot of chaos And I just bought him a nice yo-yo And, you know, so I had my It wouldn't have been wrong for me to say like Why'd you break it? So, you know, what happened? But, you know, I was, yeah, I was abused So, sure All right So we answered your question But you guys never answered our question Another win for the Thorps It's been a 100% win on this side W-R-W-R-W, yeah Yeah It feels like you guys have like Basically darvowed Like, I feel like actual darvow You're just darvowing for Crowder, in this case I don't know what darvow is Well, we're gonna Deny, accuse, reverse Also, we're abusing you now We're gonna take a side step That's not what I said We're taking this So, we have Stockholm syndrome from No, I said you're darvowing for Crowder We're gonna take a side step and keep on point here So, Doe, you had five dollars Thank you so much for your super chat Why does every conservative talking point Can simplify to conspiracy? I think that's towards Grace and Ben there Well, I'm not a conservative, so I don't know Well, but I mean, yeah, me neither But like even if you even if you say, okay She wasn't conspiring to do this Even if you just look at it Just just the video itself I honestly see a man who's frustrated Trying to communicate an issue He has with his wife and his wife Not responding to any of his questions Not getting emotionally invested But just kind of saying repeating his name And asserting that she's going to leave And I would say, you know You don't have to necessarily say that she conspired To say that at the very least He's not being abusive By bringing up an issue in their relationship That's not abusive Like there was a point made about this Like you guys know Fresh and Fit They're there They took the most extreme take on this We do not represent the most extreme take on this You know, because they're like red pillars And I think they're just anti-female in some ways But it's subtle But, you know, they made a big deal about the edits And how she worked the edits She didn't work the edits I know there was a guy on your stream who Like saw that It was just a clip She didn't work, you know That would be a conspiracy theory that was disproven Right, we all agree that It had to do with the ring video Having a motion sensor Yeah, the security camera So that seems like Because it was at exactly 30 seconds You had your guy do it And so All right Well, let's continue on from there And I will remind everybody in the super chat There's 900 of you watching And they're still only slightly shy of 400 likes So, well, I don't know what you guys are doing I don't know if you're disliking this But surely you agree with somebody here Maybe you agree with me Maybe you like that Black Sabbath tune I don't know But surely you agree with somebody So smash that like button And share this out to your contentious spaces So we can keep the conversation rolling All right, Jerome Bentley for $10 Is a physical violence necessary in a marriage Are there times where you must hit your wife Outside of self-defense From physical violence Like the times you hit mom and broke her glasses This is a fake account That's supposed to be my son Yeah, let's just let's just respond to the first point Is physical violence necessary in a marriage Let's just let's just cap it Let's just cap it at that I would say yeah, absolutely it could be What if somebody had implanted a bomb In your wife's arm And the bomb was about to explode And you had to smack her arm to like disarm the detonator I would say that in that sense You should probably use physical violence Was that a good response Ben? Well, I okay, I know I know you're playing Trying to play a little trick with me There are times when a woman When a man can give a woman a smack across the face Because she's losing her mind And it can reset her in a way that she needs to be reset If there's an emergency she needs to deal with If there's a plane about to crash into a mountain Oh, there we go, okay, gotcha, gotcha Yeah, save you You need to fucking get herself together You gotta fly the plane woman You're the only one the copilot Yes Well, do you agree with that? Yeah, maybe she used to be a pilot But she got into a helicopter accident 20 years ago She's a medic Yeah, she didn't remember how And she's like, I don't think I can do it And he's like, wake up, Jane It's you and the only one who can fly this Yeah, you're the only one who can fly this plane Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah So you agree with me and another W over here That she was a pilot If another W Another W over here Absolutely So let's not say a man can never put his hands on a woman And a man can never A father can never put his hands on his children in violence Because that's not true And it's stupid to say things like that True There's a lot of planes out there that need pilots Steven, why don't we engage sincerely Instead of being snarky Okay, I haven't made comments about your hair I haven't made comments about your wearing a t-shirt Because when somebody asks you to slap a woman They're not saying Is it so she can pilot a plane? Let's just be fair The course of normal day to day Like, well, you should force an answer I want to hear an answer to that Do they really think it's okay to smack a woman? She's not acting right? I will inject I appreciate the question But I will say that everybody's been a little snarky tonight But I think Ben just said that he thinks that's appropriate in some cases So I'll let him elaborate on that And we'll kick it back to you, Steven Yes, there are times like that They should be minimized But there are times like that And they're not as infrequent as we'd like to say Are there situations outside plane crashing? I just gave you an example Let's say there's a situation where Children need to be taken care of in a certain way And a woman's just freaking out And she needs, yeah, I would call it a physical correction I can't think of a time where I'm like Mom, help your kids I'm just, my brain, I can't think of Well, you realize you're putting me in a difficult situation Because you're telling me to advocate for something Which is against the law So you want to play games? We'll play games Okay, if you think it's a difficult situation To be asked if you should hit a woman That says more about your position than mine But all right Well, everybody can, I mean it's not just for Here's the only situation theoretically I can think of Okay, I'll try to be good faith Finish up this point and we'll move on Say there's an intruder in your home No, oh come on We don't even entertain us This is so dumb, right? That's not clearly that's not what he's saying What he's saying is if your wife is acting like a bitch Smack her across the face till you wake her up That's what he's essentially saying, okay Which is a fine position to have Listen, okay, I'm probably hitting women sometimes too So based, all right, another W for the Thorps Thank you, Stephen All right, let's just move on from there Sometimes we just need a little reset Harkness loves you, $10 question for everyone If a family was running a restaurant and a parent Like a mother Yelled at her child for messing up food prep That's not abuse, right? She's driving her employee hard, right? Well, when the, um, the inside These are all trolls Those trolls, whatever Take their money and whatever It's different to whatever For the child than an employee But whatever Stupid Yes, it could be appropriate And it could be not appropriate All right, well, would you guys If I can if I could throw this over to Stephen and Kyla Okay Do you respect a father or a boss Who holds his kids to high standards And holds them to the same heights Him or her That's what none of the conversation has Okay, I'm just asking Stephen I'm not answering, I'm not answering Because we're not talking about Holding anybody to a high standard It's not a personal insult No one is talking about Holding anybody to a high standard We're talking about Issuing physical connections to partners I'm just curious We can have a separate conversation about Or Kyla can answer, it's okay I'm not here to talk I don't know what that question has Anything to do with It doesn't resemble anything about Well, a lot of times a demanding boss Or a demanding parent Can be a good thing Demanding doesn't mean attacking somebody That's the opposite of a good leader How are you demanding Except by demanding, you know Verbally Authoritarian parents are Like very well established To be highly harmful That they're not even talking about Snacking their parents Having really, really, really high standards That are really rigid And you hold people to them Tends to crush people Yeah, I agree It's pretty awful That's it, I agree But that doesn't mean you have to have those things Obviously, I would never agree That a boss or parent needs to hit their child To get them to meet expectations And even outside of that Even the framework you're giving Empirically, we know that authoritative parents Are awful for children Yeah, I agree with you They're not good for flourishing But that doesn't mean you can't hold high standards We should all hold high standards for everybody I don't think anybody can do that Well, she assumed because I said I didn't say authoritarian I didn't assume anything I didn't say do you endorse an authoritarian parenting style I said, do you think That it can be A healthy parent who holds his kids to high standards And also especially in employment Where it's voluntary If you're getting paid well You should, you know, belly up I think there are I think more of the time It's probably not that healthy Based on the way that you're framing it Okay All right Let's continue on Yeah, thank you everybody For your super chats You know, if you want to keep them coming in You know, we've been going for three hours But we're continuing on We're having a good discussion As far as I'm concerned, you know We're keeping it As chill as we can, you know Given the nature of this discussion So Muhammad for 550 Canadian We're going to skip that one That's for destiny You might have seen it in the super chat But we're just going to skip it Because it's Wait, what's it about Not relevant It's not relevant to the discussion Was it like an insult That you think I can't handle Or was it about something unrelated All right Well, then I'll I'll Do you know what? I'll read it But I'm gonna I'm gonna give it the The attention it deserves Okay She is a pregnant You smurf Regardless Crowder is a better human than you And that's an insult Okay, gotcha Okay There you go I'm sorry, Muhammad That wasn't a very respectful comment I didn't want to read it So we're gonna move on Stay curious Five dollars Grace, do you believe Anger is always justified Regardless of if the other person Doesn't understand how and what They did affected you? Of course not You can be wrong to be angry at somebody Either because of a misunderstanding Or because you're taking something out on them Obviously Right, we all know that If they don't understand what they did To make you angry That doesn't You can't just lash out at them I mean would it I mean does anybody disagree with that It's obvious, right I agree I agree with that All right Well, let's continue on Yeah, let's move on from there And yeah, once again Try to keep our super chats Related to the topic And not attacks against our speakers But rather the things that they've said Grace, do you believe And this is from Stay curious for five dollars Grace, do you believe Anger is always justified Regardless of if the other person Doesn't understand Oh, I already read that That's what we want Yeah, given it far too much drama I thought I was losing my mind there for a second Yeah, I was gonna say I gave it far too much drama For what it's worth I'm trying to get rid of them as they come Because I got far too many on this This notepad right now You'll notch 517, 499 For each panelist to answer What is your definition of emotional intelligence So emotional intelligence We're gonna try to keep this quick Grace, I'm gonna hand it to you for 30 seconds I would say emotional intelligence is Understanding and being able to control your emotions To a certain degree But also knowing when it's appropriate To express your emotions And not lashing out at people And not modeling things up All right Well, that was less than 30 seconds We'll hand it over to you, Stephen Yeah, I would say it's understanding your emotions And being able to understand other people's emotions So having some level of self-control And then being able to interface and communicate with others All right Over to you, Ben Emotional intelligence, what's that? Yes, the same Just being able to see your emotions In the light of reason and prudence And then to exercise wisdom All right, and to close this out Not so erudite Emotional intelligence Emotional intelligence What do you define that? Everyone summed it Fine enough Yeah Okay I concur All right Let's continue on then All right Good meme New member $25 Canadian Question When Grace was experiencing Uncertain feelings with her dad She went to her discord Maybe to bring it up I don't know what that's all about And there's an extra part to that It's kind of a personal question Do you want me to continue? I mean, sure, go ahead Why did she take a step back to evaluate Instead of talking to her father directly Why is a space there okay? Or why is a space okay there? Sorry, I'm there And all you were talking about Well, sometimes, you know Me and my dad have a relationship We do a lot of YouTube stuff together Sometimes things get tense between us And sometimes it's best to take a break And get some space and think about other things Or ask other people to help you If you're, you know, in a tense situation I would say the position that we are holding Is not that a break is never a good idea That would be a strong man Right But I certainly would I would hope that I wouldn't use taking space As a power move to say like I'm leaving and I'll be back when I'm back Because I actually do help around the house With my siblings and stuff Since my mom isn't here So that would be a power move So I don't think doing stuff like that is okay But taking space is fine Yeah Let's continue on with our super chat then Mr. Cool Dude Mr. Cool Dude You're very cool 203 as well All right, so $10 Ben seems to want to talk about Kyla Way more than Crowder I think they're talking They're bringing up the discussion from the other day So we should move on from that just because We've majoritably tried to ignore that whole discussion But It's nerve-wracking I think Kyla and I are friends I don't, I don't I don't know if I would say that That's okay Well, I'd like for us to be friends But you accuse me of stuff all the time Yeah, it's okay Because you lack maturity It's fine Frenemies, frenemies? Can we call it that? Frenemies, no, I think we're like acquaintances In the same space Well, we have a little bit of chemistry And I'm not suggesting anything beyond just that I think it is definitely nerve-wracking To be around a pretty young lady in the same panel For sure Oh, well, thank you No, I'm kidding All right, let's continue All right, Griffin, $5 Do you think chronically divorced Do you think being chronically divorced Gives you bad opinions Or is that inconsequential to your takes? I'm not sure who that's for, honestly Yeah, I would think people who have been divorced many times Would not be the person you're going to turn to for advice But they also can have a lot of wisdom If they've learned from those things So obviously you don't go to homeless person And ask for stock advice All right, let me turn my mic back on Because I had a vicious cough just now That almost went down the wrong tube All right, let's see $5 from straight shot to the panel Who does Zelda go to if Hyrule is in trouble? TOTK, four days and wake up, boy All right, let's continue on I.G. Burr, $5 Ben, if your wife was singing karaoke and went home If your wife was singing karaoke and went home with him What would you do? Yeah, that's another personal drill Yeah, I was going to say that seems like a troll comment I was going to say Any of these comments that they don't seem like they make sense We're just going to move on, I'm so sorry I appreciate you guys putting in the super chats You know, that's awesome You can continue putting in super chats But, you know, if they're going to be just trolly comments We're going to just move on So Sausage Lord, $1.99 Welcome to the Orbiters Club, Ben and Grace I'm not sure what that means either I think it's a reference to Destiny There's a contract coming They get workers comp Oh, okay Well, so far we have zero from it All right, well, let's just hope Let's just hope that that's all I'm saying Bad boss, bad paradigm actually Mr. Cool Dude, where are my shades? I'm so sorry $203, $10 How is it personal to ask why Ben heaps quipping at Kyla? Damn He's yeah, it relates to the current debate I'm sorry, I'm a heterosexual man I'm sorry, guilty again All right, let's just leave it at that I'll compliment Destiny I love your blue hair And you seem like a sweetheart Can anyone compliment me for Foxy's? Ryan, you seem like a terrific guy I really love you I'm not supposed to swear Oh God, I'm going to get in trouble Anyways, we I think Grace is doing a great job All right, let's continue on All right, so how is it personal to ask why Mark, $5 Hey Mark, she might be a manipulative a-hole for all we know So might he This debate is void of details Unless you have crowders in the room Do you guys think that's true? To some extent, we're all speculating Yeah Yeah, I think that both Although I know I'll be seen as a scumbag for saying this I think that both Stephen Bannel here and Kyla have been really good about saying That there's just a lot here that speculation And there's a way in which this can be These are real people with real lives And we should at least be aware that we're missing a lot of context But I do think you can take guesses All right Well, let's continue on And we just copy and pasted another Super Chat That was way too big And it messed up my whole note So let me just minimize that Timothy P. Southwick $20 So we're going to give this a little bit of attention It's a big Super Chat What business What business is it of any of y'alls? I feel like he's from somewhere that I live Now that he's saying y'all all the time What do they matter y'all personally That you sit here saying whatever Regardless Whatever Whatever regarding them You said that twice So I'm going to read this again at the end of this Because this is a little confusing and I want to summarize Are y'all personally involved in their situation to be saying anything? So what business is it of any of y'alls? What do they matter to y'all? Personally That you sit here saying whatever whatever regarding them Are y'all personally involved in their situation to be saying anything? I mean the public figures on the internet And now this issue has been made highly public So of course people are going to have opinions about it, right? That's kind of how it goes, yeah? I think especially when an issue, you know, we all Oh, not all of us, but many of us have spouses, you know And so you can see it's like Dr. Phil Can it be helpful sometimes to see a dynamic that Dr. Phil is analyzing? Yeah, it can be I think that I think that Steven Crowder's impetus was not to do this And his wife made it public Should everyone continue to respect his wishes? I don't think that's possible at that point and everyone knows it And it can be fruitful. I think we've had a fruitful discussion. I think you guys have Do you guys feel like your your time spent with this makes you like feel dirty? I think it's okay No, because I I feel like we're treating him more like a Like the situation more like a model. We're not really saying these people We're just saying kind of they're representing a dynamic that we're analyzing to see whether it's abusive or not We're not really making moral judgments on these people themselves because obviously we don't really know Yeah, I think so Any thoughts uh destiny or erudite? Yeah, this is a conduit to explore what we think are healthier unhealthy dynamics. Yeah, exactly an erudite Any thoughts? No, all right, let's continue on then. I won't put you on the spot like that um Do do do Let's scroll on up and if I have to keep scrolling up, I'll have to keep making noises David drew $10 Ben, do you know the difference between bdsm and spousal abuse in the form of domestic violence? Oh, we're gonna have to put it on uh, we're gonna put it on pg14 plus here For this one Ben, do you know the difference between bdsm and spousal abuse in the form of domestic violence? And to you Ben Yes Is that it? Yeah, all right, let's leave it at that then that sounds about good to me We won't get any more into depth justin mead five dollars. I just got here. What's the issue and who are the panel? Well, justin mead we are discussing Uh, whether steven krauter is innocent in this most recent, uh video of him having a discussion with his wife out on the patio so, uh You know, I've got into the mic a little extra for the proximity effect Uh, but that's what we're discussing tonight and that's my super chat So i'm gonna back away and we're gonna keep going Acceleratee two dollars destiny and his sister Uh, really I did well tonight. So you guys have a fan Uh, thank you so much for that Talks in underscore av four dollars un janeva tweeted incest in peace yesterday Um, I'm not sure if that's relevant to what we're talking about. So sorry, but we're gonna continue on Jay for 499 earlier when ben went on his schizophrenic rant about women Yeah, I don't like reading those types of comments But earlier when ben went on his rant about women that like being abused Can he clarify if he was talking about his wife or his daughter? No All right, let's continue on Brian Stevens for five dollars Um, okay, I'll read it. It's a little spicy I I think it's towards the comment that you made earlier there ben But I'll let I'm gonna give you the floor to explain To brian here what you meant. He said this is disgusting behavior. A woman is freaking out in quotations And you physically correct There are times when you should slap your wife You sicken me. I put the emphasis on there to show that there's a question mark. So I'll let you explain Ben you know, it's interesting uh, Sean Connery died recently and um He was old school But uh, I think we could all say that he was obviously one seen by women as one of the most Attractive men to ever walk the face of the earth and he he was pretty uh open Uh, and it was partly cultural That about this, you know that there are there are times when that is Is Those things are fine and women do generally understand that to be true, uh, yes, I don't know There there is something about that steven admitted it himself, right and he's no, I did not I did not say that ever I have never said that that is not true Yeah, you did I did not say that women ever like or there is something about a guy that hits a woman that women are enjoying I've never said that you said yes, you did you said I get it I said I understand why women like people that can be physically violent or physically assertive to have the capability to do that That's a lot different than hitting a woman or hitting women. Oh, okay. So you don't think there are any women who in in certain contexts See it in certain contexts doing some really heavy lifting there in certain contexts and like consensual Bedroom related media some things maybe but that's a lot different than somebody that is issuing a correction to a woman No, I don't we all know that's not true. So whatever Okay, well, that's fine. Just don't say I just don't want to be taken to some of the things that you should hit Yeah, okay, but so there's one thing about saying like I won't say this because it's gonna get me in trouble And there's another thing of saying like I actually believe this and so Right, there are things you can't say you've made a lot of references to my platform So I know that you know who I am So I don't know why you would ever accuse me of not saying something because I think it'll get me in trouble Well, I didn't say that I didn't that was the heavily implied by saying I know there are things you can't say I'm gonna say whatever I want. I'm gonna kick that TV. No, you can't you start reading my What do you mean? I can't what do you think I couldn't say if I believed it? Well, you couldn't advocate for the overthrow of the united states I'm pretty sure I yeah, I can what do you mean? You didn't even choose it Okay, try it try it on your stream. Wow. We should overthrow the united states who wants to do january 6 next year What do you mean? Yeah, well, steven. I mean, obviously if you say it like that you're clean But I'm not going to encourage you here to create a situation in which you're committing a federal Felony, but you can do that on your platform if you want to okay, thanks So now we're going from unpopular opinion to advocating for crime. Yeah, I can't do illegal things It's not illegal to say I think you uh, you know if you need to hit a woman or whatever you should do that As part of your let's just say like go ahead. Yeah, you're married, right? Yeah, okay And if you said certain things on your stream Advocating for something that could be used against you if things fall apart I don't know what your situation is But you know you have to be careful as a man Because things will be used against you that you say publicly even though everyone knows they're true So that could be true of women too, but it's more true of men. You have to be really careful about what you say I don't mind you taking that position, but don't ascribe it to me because I don't agree with that and I don't believe that's true Well, you obviously do but I mean, there are certain things by TOS you're not going to say No, you're just on fucking cope mode right now because you like to smack around women because it makes you feel like a big guy Don't ascribe that belief to me though. Okay. Well, now you've made a bunch of assumptions Share that opinion No, we will mute everybody if you we get into this We've had a pretty good amicable discussion. There's gonna be none of that lost. It's not my fault We're not gonna have any of this. I'm gonna say that right now So if I don't want to indiscriminately start muting people So we're gonna try to keep our comments related to the discussion and not our speakers That is our last warning for that. So Good meme new member for five dollars and fifty cents Can a wife ever hit her husband to snap him out of it in quotation Is it okay for him to retaliate if she does same question reverse roles? Yes, absolutely. Any comment from the other side? You shouldn't be hitting your partner. This is not a good way. It's just never a healthy way to like result Yeah, I'm sorry. I give your opinion because I'm sure we disagree on this Oh, yeah, go ahead. Yeah only yeah, yeah Women can abuse men on unequivocally at any level as much as they would like and that's based And it's part of the revolution But men must be swikuck losers to take all forms of any sort of physical or emotional interaction from women, of course That does sound like your philosophy Yeah, I reject the premise of both of the these questions. No, there's no good reason to hit your spouse To reset them or wake them up, you know, you don't need to press reset What about children? Do you ever hit children? I think there are times where a physical correction can be issued if you're in a public area It's like a dire situation or whatever For instance, say you're in church or you're in like a store or whatever and a kid is being incredibly crazy or whatever you're using I think that there are times that it's probably understandable But like in the household almost never Delayed punishment. I think is sociopathic. So never like when we get home. I'm gonna do this to you I think it's insane But I would say that like do you think there's leeway in that like different people could have different views or is it like Different people can have different different cultures. I don't that's what a meaningless question Well, different views about things, but okay, so do you think there's no like there's there's no like sort of spectrum Different cultural approaches different cultures. Yeah, there's tons of different cultural approaches. I probably disagree with a lot of them I don't think that no I'm pretty sure that it like the reasons are just pretty So only your philosophy is so there's no okay, so it's we all have to absolutely agree with you I'm sure there are cultures that disagree on rape, but yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say Well, let's say the entire continent of Africa disagrees with you. So they're wrong. Is that I would say yeah, they're wrong True, I would say I'd be very brave and that's not in that position. Yeah, and that's not problematic for you as Wouldn't it be the different cultures need different levels of discipline with their kids? No, I think we're all roughly come from the same genetic stock. I'm saying biological foundation. We all roughly work the same way Okay, so you impose your Ideals on the entire rest of the world. I didn't say I impose my ideals on but I might judge them by my ideals I think I'm within my rights to do that Well, the vast majority of civilizations throughout history have Had a degree to which that's seen as normal The vast majority of civilizations throughout history also practiced war capturing women raping them and had some form of slavery Right as does ours I don't think what we generally approve of raping women anymore. I don't think we generally do the chattel slavery and neither did they Okay, you I okay base. Do you know the origin of honeymoon? Uh-oh, is this the premium an octo thing the king thing? No, it's the like the original like Viking honeymoon The leader goes in first, right? No, it's where you once you steal a woman You basically take her home and you rape her for at least 30 days to get her pregnant and if she doesn't get pregnant She's freed but if she does get pregnant now she is part of your household Yeah, okay, so you guys are a little bit immature. You don't have a great grasp of history There are I'm not saying that the past is perfect But you guys seem to think we're so far ahead in progress That we can just mock everything which came before us and that is highly immature That's how we approach history. I I would say that. Yeah, there are a lot of people I would mock people that thought it was okay to own slaves I would mock people that thought it was okay to do programs against jewish people Yeah, there are a lot of people in history. I would say I'm glad we've made progress away from a lot of things We've done in the past. Yeah, I would say and the and your pro your idea of progress is that men and women In their marriage have sex with random people whenever they want to that's progress that could be questions True. That's good. Ask questions What would you like to know? I have asked you questions about it doesn't make any sense Let's continue on because it's uh, not incredibly Relevant to what we're talking about tonight or Ryan And no, it's fine. I was gonna say It we have moved on from that topic. It seems but this is good Same cloth two dollars grace. Can you define a healthy relationship? Ah I would say we're like romantically If two people love each other want the best for each other can communicate and you know that can take different forms I mean doesn't everybody I mean, I don't know I feel like that's a very broad question Healthy communication. I completely disagree. You disagree. Yeah Uh-oh, okay Good. Well, it's oriented towards sex Well, he said you described a friendship. Oh, well, he said relationship. I wasn't sure I guess I did say romantically. It is a it is a friendship which also involves uniquely Sex and therefore children and all the rest so whatever Yeah, I mean, I agree within marriage. It just said it said relationship. I don't know Well, even a relationship even a romantic relationship is oriented towards that right Yeah, well, I don't know if you disagree. What does sex have to do with whether the relationship is healthy or not? You mean a sexual relationship. Yes, she's just saying a healthy relationship You're saying what does sex have to do with a sexual relationship? Yeah, people are asking. What is a healthy relationship? What is that being healthy? Yeah, so yeah, like is that like your primary marker that what people are fucking or what is the I'm trying to figure what your plug into that was they because I thought the don't know question Uh, ryan can remind us wasn't the don't know question like what makes for a healthy relationship That's pretty much the entirety of it. Yeah So is it just if they're having sex or What depends on what you mean by relationship? Yeah, they just said relationship Yeah, I was just saying can you define a healthy relationship? So Well, since everybody's got had a chance to speak, we'll let steven finish up and then we'll put it over to Not so erudite to uh Well, I want yeah, I wanted to hear ben and grace's answer. I'm curious I I understand that just we've everybody's got a chance to talk. So I'll let you finish what you Steven would define as a healthy relationship We'll let erudite define that and then we'll kick it back over to the other side and we'll keep the conversation moving I'll say probably the one where you don't feel they need to issue physical corrections to your partner snark All right, and not so erudite. I agree with grace. I think grace did a good job of defining a healthy relationship I Was defining it mostly between I mean, I know I said romantic but when I was thinking of it I was thinking of like two friends Or like just sex determines if something's healthy or not. I think Everything you defined is what's going to be healthy between a man and a wife. Yes, it is true that they're also having sex Uh, but what is healthy between two friends is also usually healthy between a man, uh, and his wife Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, I believe that It's primarily a friendship, but it has obviously a different element Like the hitting the person if they're wrong part. Oh, Stephen. Will you stop you're just obviously giving yourself more l He's sulking. He's you know, they said orbiters. Stephen. You're our orbiters, buddy So start spinning buddy And so is kyla obviously You're spinning you better you better stay in orbit. Don't go flying out of the solar system guys All right Well before we get into any cosmic speak because uh, you know, that's that's the name of my band One of my bands It's cosmic breach But the main band I've been playing in is light and shade But I don't want to get too pluggy even though I've done that before because I'm a big blood zeppelin fan and I love singing Uh, but we're gonna tin you on and I'm gonna let the live chat know Uh that we are going to wrap things up pretty soon Uh simply because we have been almost going we've been going for three and a half hours. Um We only have a few super chats left. I mean, I I don't know if everybody's good to keep Having the conversation if we have more super chats coming in Uh, I'm okay for a little while more. This is a fascinating conversation to me All right, if everybody's having fun as far as our panel is concerned, you know, it's it's 12 36 here My kids are in bed. My wife is You know sleeping elsewhere because she's awesome and allows me to do this type of thing You know, I should say that because uh, you know She'd rather be here in the the bedroom, but you can't see it because uh, I've got this new fancy background That's great. I thought you were 12 years old. Oh Excellent. I was going to say you thought that but I was going to say I'm I'm soon going to be 30 and I've really You look young. Well, thank you. I appreciate that Uh, but yeah, let's continue on and uh once again in the super chat you want to keep this going Keep the chats coming in. Uh, we've only got so much to talk about so if there's something you think are You know, our chatters have missed Let's get it in that super chat and let's get it fleshed out cookie bluster Well, that sounds a little aggressive in itself 10 dollars for ben thorp How is hillary situation being covered from leaving home? No different than when ben's a physical attempt to coerce his son Who was on crutches? This is another one of these. Yeah, as I say this Go ahead if people want to hear it. It's fine Yeah, I mean, you know, if if this is something that people are talking about in your space I mean, it might give you a chance to kind of talk about it, but I we can just skip it if you want Well, destiny's talking about it in his space as well Did you want to go ahead? Do you want to talk about this and kind of help with the super chat? Uh, sure But I don't know what the question was. How's it different than something else? My son something about being coerced from leaving home Well, hillary wasn't coerced Yeah, let's just leave it at that point because I I don't want this to get personal once again Yeah, it's fine. I just don't think your audience is going to be that interested But they may be I don't know destiny's blowing us up You can talk about anything you want to right now But as I say if it's if it's something that the if you think that I was to say Obviously the super chatter was kind of leaning into I think maybe I mean, I haven't seen too much content from either side, but if that's something that you you'd have to know You'd have to know a fair amount of lore Forget it. All right. I like that I like that. Well, that's that's a great way of phrasing it Well, if you want to talk about it, we can if we want to move on we can do that as well I didn't even catch the question. I mean, I'd be inclined to just move on but Yeah, let's do that Uh, do do do Oh, let's see here. So Uh, ivory Uh, we're gonna move on from that one as well. Once again, let's let's try to keep it keep it civil everybody If I can take a minute if I can take a minute in in order like so that I don't seem like I'm obfuscating You're welcome to come to my channel, which is Ben Thorpe without an e and I have a k a abel abel And I also have a discord That's called the same right grace Ben Thorpe a k abel grace has her own channel grace. They thorp a k a jone And she has a discord grace thorp Is that right a k a jone gracey it's it's in my about Okay, and you're welcome to contact us. I think we're in the descriptions below her mother also has a disc uh, uh channel called Thorpe a tokos and A discord and her brother has a discord also So you can contact us and we're happy to answer these sorts of questions And we are also streamers. So well, uh, yeah, we will definitely, uh Definitely let you plug that and uh with that being said, uh, not so erudite. Where can everybody find you? Uh, since we aren't at our closing statements quite yet, but uh, you know Where ben just took that opportunity to tell everybody where he's at. Can you tell us where everybody can find you? Um, uh Damn i'm in such snark mode Um It's okay. Be starky about it. I was gonna say in your mom's bedroom. Uh, where you'll have to find me is Uh, youtube kick, uh twitter kind of all the basics. Uh, not so erudite. Uh, that's spelt erudite And it's all one word So if you like if you like spicy debates and, uh Bass takes come on over All right, and uh, what about you steven Uh youtube.com slash destiny instagram.com slash destiny All right, excellent. I think everybody's been, uh, But properly plugged there. What about you grace thorp? Do you have a separate channel of your own as well? Yeah, it's uh, it's grace thorp ak joan. I I stream a lot. I have panels and stuff I rate do reactions and dances and stuff like that. It's a lot of fun. We're also while we're plugging We're going to have a post debate debate on the tom foolery show to which everyone's welcome and we have sort of, uh Well, i'm not going to say definitely Secured, uh, milo yinopoulos as a debater, but we're going to rehash this in a three-way debate positive neutral and negative after this debate if we don't die of exhaustion Yeah, so tom foolery show on youtube. Yeah All right, excellent and uh to the live chat if an I've seen a couple people or maybe it's the same person asking why i'm not reading certain super chats is because they're just, uh, You know insulting things to the people that came out here to speak tonight And we appreciate everybody who came out here to speak tonight regardless of whether you agree with them So, uh, you know, I warned you of that at the beginning So we appreciate anybody who puts money into a super chat, but if it's a tax against our speakers That's that's that's for you. All right, let's continue on so We're happy with the tax just long complicated questions about lore are difficult Something like that, right Grace what do you define as red flags in a romantic relationship that's from same cloth for five dollars And she just left. Oh, she just left. Can we hold it? Oh, well, well, we'll just wait for her to come back and we'll ask, uh, a different question It seems like most of our questions are To both of you. So maybe we should wait till he's coming right back. He just got my one It's all good For ben Thorpe $10 from cookie blunsta How is hillary's situation? Good question My bad did i'm oh, sorry I asked about red flags red flags What are what what are red flags for you? um red flags In a relationship is what the question was I would say if somebody is lying to you if they're hiding things if they Uh, don't really want to talk if they get distant if they Lash out at you when something else is wrong in their life that kind of stuff pretty basic And uh, the next super chair that we had is for ben Thorpe. How is hillary's situation? Is that a question how is hillary's situation that's for ben. Yeah, how is that a question serious question? I think so. What is it? That's not a full sentence. You're missing words. How is hillary's situation? I I think they're trying to get you guys to fill in the gaps there, but we can just move on if uh, If that's lacking too much context It's just incomprehensible Is not good Is much sad Not good is much sad. All right. Well, let's continue on from there Uh Let's see five dollars Everyone head to the samos channel Uh, yeah, we won't read the rest of that once again people keep it civil Uh in the live chat 11 dollars from nina ben and grace in the herd slash depth trial Dept testified that he'd removed himself from fights before those got physical in order to de-escalate the situation Was he being abusive by doing that? um No No But I would yeah, I mean there's a difference between removing I would say if your fights are getting to the point where they're going to get physical between a man and a woman the relationship is Almost guaranteed to be over like it aids if it's going to get violent But yeah, you should remove yourself before it gets to that point. I would say That's different than removing yourself because you don't like the conversation anymore Or because you feel cornered or you want to use it as a power move, but of course the context matters All right excellent, and I've I've rechecked the super chat and doesn't look like it's uh two pointed here It's just uh relating to the situation Uh about uh domestic abuse I think so ivory for five dollars Grace is it a good idea for a family member to stay with an aggressive family member if they threaten to put a fist through the family member's head um I uh, I know what they're referring to uh depends if they're joking around or if it's serious if it's serious then no That person sounds violent Okay. All right. Let's uh continue on there. Um Um Stay curious Can we go back to talking about ohama beach jk? Uh, I'm not sure what you're talking about if you're talking about my my shirt there. I don't know I brought up omaha beach, uh, which is the the landing of the Allied forces in france. Okay. I was gonna say I thought they might be talking about my cosmic breach shirt I was gonna say if you want to elaborate on that you can go ahead, but they did put Why don't they were just kidding? Yeah, they did put just kidding so we can continue on I underscore I'm um date mike Uh, is the name of the super chatter ten dollars to the thorps thoughts on my bratty sis and channels like that My bratty sis. Yeah Has anybody seen that or I'm not sure what that is It's a porn site. It's a troll comment jesus Oh, okay. Well Thanks for that. I was gonna say that that that might expose me. I do have a point about that. You mean that's and let's that's about incest Yes, oh, okay So, I don't know. I don't know the background here, but steven you've talked about this issue I think am I is that a troll that told me that? No, I love talking about incest Okay, so and and you're just saying like seriously Right, like it's an interesting topic or is that a joke? It's an interesting topic. Yeah, okay and I do think that the fascination because that's a very uh What is it like that's a very popular category on You know and within porn and I think that uh, covet had something to do with Intensifying that I think it's interesting. I'd love to have a talk with you about it sometime and I you know I understand the implication but I do think it's it's interesting Okay Now that you're an orbiter Yeah a four bidder All right, so where we are at the end of our super chats Unless we get anything last minute We are going to close out so for closing statements We are going to do a minute for each of our panelists here Where we've gone through all of our super chats um I would say where we are right now. We should start with grace We'll let you start with your one minute closing Okay Okay, um What we came here tonight to debate uh is whether Steven Crowder is innocent. I believe of being called abusive or an abuser um, I think our opposition essentially Brought up that he was controlling which we proved he was not that he was unwilling to work together with her Which he actually was the one who wanted to have the conversation with her and she was the one leaving and disengaging That his tone was derisive and they gave for examples that you know Telling her that the only way out of this bad situation was disciplined respect was derisive when in fact that's perfectly fine to say to somebody especially if they are failing you um They said that he was spiteful by telling her things that she was failing at which is it's not spiteful it's just a harsh honesty harsh truth which you owe to your partner sometimes and uh You know, I don't think they would say he is an abuse. He is an abuser, but that he uh, that he displays abusive behavior Then they would say that's definitely true and I would say that it's absolutely not true He is a frustrated man whose wife is Disengaging winding him up and then later saves the tape of this argument and Uses it against him to attack the father of her children and the man she married nine years or She was married to for nine years to hurt him personally so Not only was he is he innocent of abusing anyone misusing or mistreating him Her but he it was also abused by his wife saving this conversation So Steven Crowder if you're out there, I think it's terrible that you're being attacked by Your wife she shouldn't do this to you. Maybe it's not her fault But you are being publicly attacked on the deepest level. She's trying to wreck you and uh I think you need some feminine support in your life. So let me know Uh, yeah closing remarks every day Yep, sorry, uh my position is the same I think three minutes is a woefully insufficient to make Many claims about the nature and dynamic of these two people's relationship I think it's also important to point out that nobody actually cares about these two and their relationship It's just a talking point. Um I think in this video Steven Crowder looks bad The problem is that that might be the purpose in the video probably is to some degree Issue is just because it might be the purpose and release in the video It doesn't mean that Steven Crowder wasn't awful in his relationship. The problem is there's So much necessary required context It is hard to know everything and there's a lot of ambiguous statements made between the both of them that nobody has context for Um, I think it is better to probably wait for uh, the divorce trial to go forward Um, if more things get released publicly, you'll be able to weigh in more clearly But at this point we have a three minute video, uh, which is woefully insufficient for much The end All right over to you ben I would say uh, that my position on this issue As part of a larger nexus of positions That I would say I would call being a centrist to edgelord as a catholic On the one hand, of course traditional marriage Is a healthy thing one man one woman and their kids. However, especially in our times The reality is that a lot of people for various reasons bring a lot of baggage There's been a breakdown of the family. So a lot of people get into Want want to do the traditional thing and can't actually live it out in our society the church Churches people on the internet need to be Much more open to the possibility that a lot of times people don't necessarily go into this with enough To follow through and I especially appeal to women including grace's mother who is watching at this time to say We do need to find a way without blaming the spouse for For there to be a resolution and there can be a resolution It can be okay to get over your head To find yourself in a situation that's overwhelming and you can't just walk away and blame the other person And uh, there needs to be much more healing. I think divorce is a terrible curse Um, and I don't think we need to do it So and also Steven Crowder give you a call. All right. Let's uh kick it over to destiny to close this out for one minute Yeah, I mean I I think the the behavior was clearly abusive I think that our two interlocutors here have a pretty insane standard for what they would consider abuse Um, I would say you have the right to walk away from any conflict I didn't get enough time if you're like you are emotionally dysregulated or your partner is emotionally dysregulated And anytime you find yourself in the presence of somebody else that is constantly making you feel uncomfortable constantly making you second guess Whether you are feeling okay or not and is constantly forcing you to Take their aggressive behavior and reframe it in a way that makes you okay with it Even though you're not I think is a surefire sign that we are probably Within some type of dynamic that you not only can take a break from if you need to but you have every right to take a right from so I uh, I think that I didn't hear any adequate reasons given why it was so evil for Hillary to say she wanted to take a step back other than to Uh, constantly pontificate about some situations related to Crowder and his wife giving up Uh, that we were never really given any more information about All right, you guys heard it here first. Uh, right is Steven Crowder innocent. This is our debate on modern day debate Thank you grace Thorpe bent Thorpe not so erudite and destiny for being here Everybody in live chat. Thanks for hanging out and for your super chats We will be back And once again, thank you all for attending this debate and uh, have a good night everybody Hey y'all go to bed