 Welcome. This event has been produced in partnership with the San Francisco Riders Conference and the San Francisco Chapter of the Women's National Book Association, two entities with whom I work to provide writing classes and other learning experiences relevant to the San Francisco Bay Area writing community. And I work for the Mechanics Institute of San Francisco, which is a pioneering library, cultural event center and chess club in downtown San Francisco, founded in 1854. So we're all gathered here to talk or ask a couple of agents about how the pandemic that we're all experiencing will change the publishing game. We have today Gordon Warnock, who is a partner at Fuse Literary, and Andy Ross, who is an agent himself and the former owner of Cody's Books. I'm going to briefly read to you their longer bios and then talk to you briefly about how we're going to organize the talk today. So Gordon Warnock is a partner at Fuse Literary, and he works with New York Times bestsellers and debut authors alike. He represents socially responsible nonfiction, including self help, pop culture, current events, business memoir and narrative. He also, however, covers adult fiction along the lines of high concept suspense and women's fiction, young adult and graphic novels as well. Now, Andy Ross, as I said before, was the former owner of Cody's Books in Berkeley. And he opened his literary agency in 2008. His agency represents books in a wide range of nonfiction genres, including narrative nonfiction, science, journalism, history, popular culture, memoir, and current events. So if you're writing a book about the pandemic, looks like both of these fellows will be someone you should look into. He also represents literary, commercial, historical, and upmarket women's fiction, as well as YA and middle grade fiction. He all both these gentlemen lend their experience at numerous writers conferences, including the San Francisco Writers Conference. And Andy is the author of the Literary Agents Guide to Writing a Nonfiction Book Proposal. And he also has a active blog that you can check out on his website. I'll put both of their contact information in the chess, not the chess room, in the chat room. So you can refer to it as we go through the talk today. All right. So the way this is going to work is Gordon and Andy will each share their knowledge for a few minutes, and then we'll take questions. We have a really large audience today. So please ask specific questions. If you really want to pitch your book, it might make sense to contact the agents separately. And again, I'll put their contact information in the chat room. All right. So let's take it away. Gordon, why don't you start? Sure thing. So a little bit more about me. I got into the business also in 2008. So Andy could speak to this as well. But around that time, it was a really interesting entry into publishing. A lot of people were, frankly, asking me, why are you doing this? There was, if you recall, the beginning of the Great Recession was really coming on. The Kindle had just come out. So e-books were a big disruption. There was all this sort of kind of a panicked atmosphere of, you know, what's going on? What is book publishing going to look like? And so it was a really interesting time to get into the business. And it was also interesting to see the reactions from various people around the industry. And I personally found it to be a very exciting time. I am of the mindset of disruption tends to lead to opportunity, especially if you really take that on and take an active role in it. And that's really sort of a main founding philosophy of our agency. When I got together with Lauren Klain, who was with Lars and Pomada for years, we just sort of wanted to do something new and to, you know, be more active as agents and see what we can do rather than what the old school model of being an agent was. And that was, you know, we sort of took on the unofficial motto of our agency as Gondies, be the change you want to see in the world. And so we saw a lot of change. A lot of things get shaken up and a lot of things, you know, come around to a new normal. And that is really, I think what we're facing right now. We're seeing a lot of disruption, a lot of panic, a lot of, you know, people reacting in different ways. And it's really interesting to see how things shake out as like in 2008, for example, with the whole thing of eBooks being the end of the industry. And like all this other, you know, is supposed to just destroy bookstores and have this widespread chaos and destruction. Now it's almost a silly thought if you think of eBooks as destroying the industry. It's really become a lifeblood for certain types of genres and certain publishers and certain methods. And overall, eBooks have really kind of settled into everything else as just being another format. It was before my time, but I heard there was the same thing with the introduction of the cheap paperback of, you know, it was supposed to destroy the industry at that time. And that became another format that certain authors, certain readers gravitate toward. And so it sort of settled into place as far as how people were able to read, how people were able to tell stories. And before all of this went down, we were seeing a huge increase in market share of digital audio as well. And that really is, you know, now we should be really thankful for all of that because had we entered the current state of things without having eBooks, without having digital audio, without having these ways to get these stories, we would have been in a lot rougher shape than we are right now. And so it's really something that I see as being a change rather than a huge decline overall. Yeah, it will be a short-term difficulty for a lot of people, especially those that are reliant on producing, manufacturing, shipping, hand-selling physical products. That's really taken quite a pinch, but now it's, you know, there are opportunities for different ways to still get stories out there, which is great. And at the same time, I mean, even those booksellers, indie booksellers in particular, are really looking to ways that they can adapt as well. We're seeing a lot of, you know, folks doing curbside pickup and taking orders over the phone and even local indies shipping within their city for free, you know, things like that. They're taking these efforts to continue to sell their physical product. So even that is something that is evolving as well. And I'm sure Andy could speak more on that from a bookseller perspective. But yeah, it's really interesting to see, you know, the consumer end of things, how that's changing, the business end of things, how that's changing. We're all suddenly working from home, and granted, our agency was sort of founded on the remote working model since the very beginning. So we really aren't feeling it professionally as much as some others are. I heard of another really, you know, good old school long standing agency in New York that in late May, they were set to move offices from one location in Manhattan to another location in Manhattan. And that was something that they had just set up as part of their business operation that came on a very difficult timing as that was when New York was becoming a big epicenter for COVID. And sheltering in place was becoming a thing that we were rapidly needing to start doing. And so thankfully, you know, we haven't had those types of difficulties, but some companies out there are. But now it's really interesting and, you know, and really heartening to see, you know, publishers adapt, other agencies adapt. You know, everybody is still getting the job done remotely. You know, books are still being acquired. I have several outstanding offers, including a six-figure debut that I'm working on. And so the industry in itself is still moving along. And it's interesting to see just how people adapt and how people take this as an opportunity to, you know, see what else is possible. I have a project with First Second at McMillan and their editorial director sent out an email just a couple of days ago about how they are looking into other ways of, you know, maybe producing books in different countries rather than being so reliant on China, depending upon, you know, the type of book. And, you know, just all of these things are making us as an industry ask some very important questions rather than get complacent and set in our ways. Well, how can we open up our options? How can we expand things and really make things, you know, a bit more workable for everyone, stable in the long term, able to withstand this kind of disruption and just really continue evolving. It's a really interesting time to be in the business and seeing a lot of shades of 2008. And, you know, we'll end up, you know, seeing how that moves forward. I overall, you know, see this as being a significant but very temporary setback. It's not like the sky is falling. It's more like the wind is blowing. It's like, what are we going to do to react and to change and to continue moving forward as an industry? And I'm seeing, you know, editors online, you know, some people naturally are getting furloughed and laid off, but other editors online are saying, you know, I want to buy, you know, send me your submissions. And so we'll ultimately see what that means in terms of, you know, financials and pub dates and things like that. A lot of stuff can get, you know, shaken up in the short term and then maybe certain things are implemented for long-term just how the industry works and producing books. But, you know, we'll ultimately get through this and see what's going on. So I'm really glad to be here with, you know, virtually with you all and with Andy and Mickey, someone who, you know, as agents who got into the business around 2008, when we were both in the Bay Area by San Francisco. It's, you know, we are very familiar with each other's backgrounds and it's always fascinating talking to each other and getting, you know, the different takes on the business. So I think we're in for a good one. So, yeah, I guess I'll turn it over to Andy, what, you know, I'd love to hear his thoughts on things as well. Hi, can y'all hear me? Yes. Well, I feel a little uneasy right now, not because of anything Gordon said, but I just, I can't really visualize what's going to happen after this. It's publishers, the good news is publishers are still buying books. Editors typically are always thinking, you know, I, when I try to sell a book, I try not to make the pitch of whatever the big story is at the time that I'm pitching them, but trying to figure out what the big story is going to be in a year and a half, which is when the books got to come out. And I think that's what editors are used to thinking about it. And they are, you know, they've been, I've been selling books and the same kind I always sold before. I'm a little concerned, actually, I'm quite concerned about the way the retail business is going to shake out at this thing. I would, I'm pretty concerned about physical bookstores, particularly independent stores, but even Barnes & Noble, which is kind of at this point the only chain store we're talking about. And I'm worried that, that just like groceries, books are going to end up being sold online. In some ways, that's okay. But you know, the, a lot of books, particularly the kind of books that I sell and probably Gordon as well, they need hand selling. They are mid-list books. The authors don't have real name brands. And those books are harder to sell online. So I'm concerned about that. But meanwhile, I am still looking for good books. I haven't changed my, I haven't changed my philosophy of how to acquire books, either fiction or nonfiction. And I'm, I'm hauled out here in my basement. But since I've been hauled out here in my basement for 10 years, it isn't that big a change. That's all I had to say. Let's say I have some questions. All right, great. Let's see here. A couple of these questions were answered by your narratives. But how one question, one question is, so publishers are still acquiring books. That's what, that's what I understand. How does, how does this really compare to last year? And are acquisition boards meeting remotely or is everything kind of on pause right now? As far as I can tell, it's not on posse. I, in the last two months, I actually sold more books in a two month period than that I ever have. But, you know, a lot of those things were starting to pipeline anyway. But they are open for business. I've got a lot of things out that are going around New York. And the responses are pretty slow. Because I think everyone in New York, they're all working from home. They're a little disoriented, particularly in New York, as well as they should be. But I am, the books I'm looking for, the same books I was looking for before, I definitely don't want any books about either Trump or the coronavirus. It's just, there's enough of that at home. But other than that, I'm looking for journalism and not fiction. Usually people with platforms. And fiction that's beautiful writing. Some memoirs that have a, that have a high concept, which is what I've always been looking for. And what, oh, sorry, go ahead, Gordon. Oh, sure. Well, it's just, I was just going to piggyback on that, say that it's very interesting to see which publishers are and are not able to move quickly in this environment. You know, I'm working on several deals right now. And some publishers are quick, maybe even quicker than they've ever been. And others are seeing serious bottlenecks. And there are certain areas of the business that are bottlenecking in the acquisitions area, you know, it's more difficult to get different departments and different staff in the same room at the same time, so to speak. And so certain things are taking a lot longer than they used to, but, you know, overall things are moving forward. And it's, you know, it's an interesting process to see, you know, just who is overall trying to, you know, ride this out and wait until things go back to normal. And then who's, you know, seeing, you know, is this a new way of working? Is this something that we could adopt to our advantage? So it's just fascinating overall, I think. So querying should not, you shouldn't pause your query efforts. You should just keep going. This is what you were planning on doing. I'm not going anywhere. So you may even get responses sooner, although I do try to respond quickly. Nothing has changed in the agency for me. Yeah, and that really, you know, it's good to keep that in mind and that some of us are, you know, able to get to things right away and others are dealing with them. Like, for example, I can't imagine what it's like having young children in the home and trying to get this job done right now. And I know some folks were doing that and all the more power to them, I wish them the best. But so I would, I would not stop querying, but I would be patient, you know, a little bit more than than in the past. Another question. Can you either of you comment about how the University Press situation is looking? I sold a book at the University Press for a fair amount of money, and it took me about a week. So are you talking about how they're doing now or how they're doing in general? I sell a lot of books at the University Press because I have a lot of scholars who I represent. And it's a it's a different world there. You know, books I can't sell to trade publishers that still have an audience, a good audience, I can frequently sell the University Press. They're not, they're not obsessed with platform and celebrity. Well, they aren't. It's more of, is the author having a bad chair at Harvard as opposed to, does the author sleep with Oprah's hairdresser? And they've done very well. The University Press is for certain types of books are better than trade publishers. They know how to, they know how to market those books better, and they target the market much better than even a prestigious trade publisher would do. And also they stand behind the books longer. If a book doesn't sell 30,000 copies, it cannot, they're going to kind of give up on it quickly. Whereas, you know, a book that sold 10,000 copies at the University of California Press, that would be a big book for them. And they would do, they would, they would treat it accordingly. Oh yeah, just just in general, you know, I think it would do folks of service to think of publishing more as an ecosystem with a bunch of different parts that all work, you know, to hold up their end of what's going on overall. You know, University Press is very important, and they do their own thing very well as to, you know, big five and indies and on down to sell publishing, everything has its place. And it's good to have, you know, all of these different outlets for all these different types of books. It's oftentimes it's, it's more what is the better fit than what is, what is, you know, the big name, you know, you want the book to be served well. Great. A couple more questions. Let's see, first I want to tell you, Andy, that your, your audio is a little bit, you sound slightly underwater. So I wonder if you could get closer to your microphone. Yeah. Is this better? That's better. Yeah. Let's see here now. A lot of comments about the sound. One question here. Do you think, maybe you've answered this already, but do you think publishers are a little more timid or do you think they'll take chance, more of a chance now that everything's kind of unstable on a new author or? Well, you know, I would say that they became more timid in 2008. But I can't say that for sure, because I was a retailer in 2008. I think Gordon and I both came in when things started falling apart. And I know they laid off a lot of editors back then, usually the senior editors, who they were paying more. But also they got very skittish about, they became more skittish about the books they were buying. And they started paying a lot smaller advances. At least this is what I heard from agents who were in the business much longer than I was. It is difficult to sell books. All books, people, adult fiction is particularly difficult, personal memoirs, but they're buying books, they're publishing those kinds of books. It just, you have to be good, but it's not good enough to be good. And I can't speak for Gordon, but because I came in later, it's harder for my agency to get big celebrity authors, because there are a lot of these agents in New York who are very successful, are successful because they're successful. They have big names on their website and stuff like that. And so people gravitate to them, but they aren't always that good. Sometimes they're lazy, sometimes they're busy. And if you're not a kind of a big name author, you're probably better off with an agent who might work harder for you than these kind of big celebrity agents. I've gotten a lot, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I'm answering somebody's question. I've had a lot of clients who work with big agents, and they were not served well at all. The agent gave up on them after they have sent out to five, the same old five people. And I think you want to know, if you're looking for an agent, I think you want someone who believes in what you're doing and will go all, will go the distance. And if you're writing a debut novel, you may end up getting an offer for $2,000 advance. And you want to make sure your agent isn't going to give up after they've tried the 10 big publishers because they don't want to waste their time on what will end up being a small advance. So you need to find that out. Yeah, that's very accurate in my experience as well. And that publishers want more of a sure bet now than they have before. And I think that will only get even more so as far as nonfiction, absolutely. But fiction as well, you first and foremost need to write a good book and you need to be a good storyteller and serve your audience very well. But elements of a platform may come into that as well as far as how well are you known, how well are you connected with other authors who could give you a boost or even you know, your local booksellers and libraries and so forth, do you have a presence that can help sell books? That could also be important as well. And yeah, I mean, it's a business. It's one of those things where it's really interesting from our standpoint as agents to sort of have one foot in the art and one foot in the business and to be able to translate back and forth and say, okay, this is a good book. Is it a good product? And it is, you know, just at the end of the day, if you, you know, when you're writing a book, it's an art and when you then try to publish it, it becomes a business and it becomes a product. And so just thinking of it in terms of that as well as some part of what makes the job so interesting and so much fun, in my opinion. But yeah, you know, it is something to manage and something to keep in mind. That's really interesting that you put it that way, the art and the business side. One of the questions is how do you see things changing for genres? Are some types moving more quickly? Are others more sort of stuck in a bottleneck? Or how do you see the genres progressing? I think it's less, there are some generalizations you can make about genres. I know that a few years ago, YA was really big. And now they overpublish and it's become very difficult to sell YA and middle grade has become more wide open. But in general, I think it has less to do, there are some trends. I remember a few years ago, everybody wanted to study neuro psychology or neuroscience and now it's, they're probably too many books. But it's hard to make generalizations about genres. I'm always looking for, in nonfiction, I'm mostly looking for new ideas and concepts that again, because of the business that Gordon was talking about, the book is a product. They, I always try to think about how they're going to get promoted, particularly with physical bookstores having a harder time selling. So it's a lot of books now are getting sold more by media, but this isn't so much about genre as it is about whether the writer and the subject are going to be newsworthy. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think just any question about genre and trends should be prepped by the necessary adage of don't write to a trend. Usually things will move much, much quicker than you can and then the business can behind your book as well. I mean, because even just pitching agents and then agents pitching publishers could take quite a bit of time, even if you have the manuscript in hand. So it can be something definitely to keep an eye on, but don't try to chase it down. I would say write what you want to write and then see, you know, see how you can get that out there, see how you can fit it into the market as it's moving. But yeah, I mean, the, we can speculate. We don't, we naturally don't have a crystal ball. Anything we can say, oh, this will be big at this time. But just knowing like, yes, why I got saturated. So things move toward middle grade. You know, that's something that is, is a fairly solid bet with the overall, just the overall attitude that people have expressed online. I can see the need for a couple of different types of books. It will, I think at the end of the day, it'll, it'll, you know, come down to catharsis. So we'll see, definitely see some escapism. We'll see, you know, some light fluffy books, romantic comedies, things like that probably will do a lot better books and different settings, people wanting to get out into different parts of the world and explore things because we're physically, you know, trapped inside. We can't, we can't get out and, you know, travel like we used to, I think so. That might see a big growth and also, you know, on the other end, we've been looking at the hints of maybe a resurgence of horror for a while. And that might be another way that, that folks might be able to vent their feelings and connect in certain ways. And so we'll just kind of see what happens. But it's, you know, we can, we can sort of, you know, speculate and see based on just the overall temperature of, of, you know, what people are feeling and what has been selling well, you know, where things can logically progress. So any, I wouldn't listen to anyone who says absolutely this will be the next big thing, but, you know, definitely keep in mind that, that things will change. Great answer. Just touching on a few things that you said earlier. How do you think a new author should start planning their promotion efforts? I mean, how do you think promotion will really change in the situation that we're in now, like events and signings? Now is not, I've got some books that are coming out in the next month or two. And now is not a good time at all because there's really only one story. So my books that are coming out aren't going to get attention. And typically, when we were planning on publication dates, I had some political books. We didn't want them to come out in fall of 2020 because the media was going to be saturated with, with politics. And we felt like they'd have a hard time getting, getting attention. I have no idea what it's going to be like. So I don't, there's not too much I can think about. And mostly I'm just looking to see if the subject is, has got a good concept. I'm going to go off topic again. But does everybody here know what the concept, high concept, the term? Okay. It's a very, it's an annoying, it's an annoying term that came out of Hollywood. But what it means is that the concept is so clear that you can usually state it in a sentence or two. So for instance, I have a book which was a memoir by a woman who was a successful paparazzi for five years in Hollywood. That's a high concept book, because you know exactly what that book is about. I said it in a phrase, not even in a sentence. I had another memoir, which was a memoir of a doctor who treated Ebola in Africa during the height of the epidemic. That's a high concept book. And then you have things like, oh, you know, sort of personal memoirs, like the Liars Club or something like that. And everybody's always mentioning that. When they want to be, they say my book is like the Liars Club. That isn't a high concept book. You'd have a hard time explaining in a sentence what that book is about, which is not to say it's not a good book. And it obviously is a successful book. And it was beautifully written. But it's, it's, it's challenging to sell books that don't have that kind of high concept. For one reason, because the agent, the sales rep has to pitch these books to the media and to bookstores, and they only have about 15 seconds. And if a person gets the concept of the book quickly, then it's going to be a lot easier to sell or get a spot on TV. So that's, you need to think about that when you're, when you're before you send your book out to agents. And I don't, I can't give you more advice than that. Some people, some of your books may in fact just not have a high concept. You know, I mean, you can't pretend it has one. And I do acquire books and we all acquire books that don't, but it becomes just another challenge that you have to be aware of at the time you're trying to sell it. Yeah, right. It's, it's always, you know, regardless of what you're pitching, you need to know how to articulate that. That's a very important part of, you know, translating this from an art to a product, being able to tell people, you know, what they're getting into, why they should buy this, what kind of experience they're going to get. And so, you know, high, high concept books are something that, that I'm looking for as well, and that a lot of other agents are just because it's, it's so, it's so easy to get the message across in really any format, whether it's a tweet or, or something a little bit more involved. You know, so comparable titles are big on that as well. I might think of a book that I just had the last book in a trilogy that just came out, just came out last month actually, that I sold as Gossip Girl Meets X-Files. And so it's like, you get that right away, what that is, you know, what kind of experience that that is. So just any way that you could think of to, to convey that, and that translates over to promotion as well. Promotion is going to be very different at least in the short term and probably for the coming couple years or so, depending upon how quickly and thoroughly they get this all wrapped up. But yeah, I mean, we have, we have a big celebrity book that was some reliance on a big national tour that was coming out in them in early June. And so that's all scrapped. So where do we go from there? And we have to sort of reassess and see, okay, back to the platform element, back to what Andy was talking about before. What are the strengths of the author? What can we lean on? How can we get that message out? So that person in particular is going to be doing a lot of like Instagram live and, you know, connecting with folks that way, virtually a lot more influencer marketing and, and just, you know, leaning heavily into, you know, online promo and things that, you know, thankfully are a lot more prevalent now as an option. So that you're not reliant on the big tour anymore. And in fact, you know, the big tours were rather rare post 2008 when, when publishers were looking to cut down on costs and, and, you know, looking at other options and things like that, because they don't often, you know, oftentimes they don't pan out. I like following a couple of best sellers online that post photos of the audience of their readings. And sometimes it's a packed house. And sometimes there are 10 people there. And these are New York Times best sellers. And so it's, you know, leaning on what is, what's more affordable, what's more realistic, what are your strengths. We were doing a lot with, with a bunch of different authors who have different, different skill sets and different things that they could do. We did a, and read it AMA and a Twitter chat with our author Julie Kigawa. We did. Oh, who is it? Just, just yesterday, Shannon Dulsky, one of our new debut middle grade authors, some did a Zoom, a Zoom chat with a couple of middle grade authors. And I know some bookstores are doing that as well. Some independents are, I believe, Finney books in Seattle and Greenlight books and some of the others that tend to do a lot more online promo just in general. They have events in the store, but then they have, you know, readings that they do online as part of their regular promo. And now they're leaning, you know, heavily into the one that's realistic right now. So yeah, it really, it really is, you know, seeing what, what you can do, how you can reach the audience. You do need to reach those readers. You can't just say, well, I can't promote my book now because then your book won't sell. It's, you know, in this day and age, you have to be an active promoter of your work as an author or else it's really tough to break out. Wow, that's amazing that you're able to articulate all of that. Thank you so much. It's a lot. So there's a couple of questions in the chat that might be, I guess they're looking for a little guidance about the types of genres or types of book that actually require a nonfiction proposal. Do memoirs need a nonfiction proposal with a synopsis? Maybe just go over a little bit about how one queries an agent with fiction, nonfiction memoirs. With nonfiction, I'm gonna, you should definitely read this book first, which is mine. It's the best one, he said, in modesty. And it's also short and has all my jokes in it, some of which you will have already heard. But it used to, you know, the conventional wisdom used to be is that you don't need a book proposal for a memoir, but I think you really do now. And I would treat it like any other nonfiction book that people are scared of book proposals. Writers are, but you don't need to be. If you know what you're writing about, you know, if your idea for your book is clear, a book proposal shouldn't be that hard. It's a highly structured document. It's like a business plan. And you want to, you want to excite the editor, editors or book lovers, just like the rest of us, and we do get excited. But you also want to make a convincing case that you, that your idea is new, it's important. And the first question they're going to be asking themselves, and you have to be able to answer it, is who's the audience for this book? And are they going to buy it? And there are ways of doing that in a book proposal. You have to do it. You can do comparable books that did very well. But I think if you're doing any kind of nonfiction, you are going to have to have a book proposal. As far as fiction goes, you don't have to have a book proposal. You just have to have a good piece of fiction. If you're a famous author, that would be great, but most people here today aren't. And I do see publishers, I see book deals on publishers marketplace, they're buying debut fiction. It's hard to sell. There's a lot of stuff out there. And a lot of the people writing debut fiction is good. And I cannot say the kinds of books, books that I, you know, bring tears to my eyes at three in the morning, I can't fall asleep. And I can't get interest from publishers. So I can't really say what it's got to be. I know it's got to be good, whatever that means. But this is a really subjective business and what I respond to may not be the same thing as what other editors want. I can just do the books that I fall in love with really and hope somebody else will as well. It's fiction is tough, but it's worth it. And people do read it. I'm looking for it if it's good, but I'm very selective. Yeah, I mean, that's that's all very accurate. I mean, you know, shout out to Andy and go buy his book. And he knows what he's talking about. It's, you know, nonfiction is, is something that that really is heavily into the product element more, more so than the art and nonfiction usually won't have the whole book finished before you pitch it. It will usually have a couple of chapters at most. And and from there, just a detailed outline and all the business elements, how you're going to support it and where it fits in the market, all the rest of it. Whereas fiction, you don't need a proposal. I'm really of the mindset of flaunted if you got it. And so if you do have like access to huge mailing lists or you wrote for certain magazines or, you know, however you can get the the word out there, regardless, if you're writing nonfiction or fiction, convey that, you know, tell that to the agent, we don't know something exists unless you tell us. And likewise, the publisher won't. And if you, you know, clue us in on on everything that you have, you know, you can then make a good case for for your book as a product on that end. And so yeah, it can help, you know, regardless, it can help, you know, get the work out there and get it into readers hands. And a good book proposal is, yeah, it's it's something that a lot of folks hate to put together. But it is, it's really worth it in the long run, even after the book is sold, it then becomes sort of your roadmap to promotion. So you know who your audience is and how to get it out. Yeah, you should, I think also you should look at it as an opportunity. I have done book, I've worked with authors and some of them, they're perfect when I get them, like those, because I don't have to do any work. And some of them have taken months. And I know one of them was a scholarly book for a trade audience. But it took him six months to do the book proposal. And he said that the process was very important for him in figuring out how to structure his book. So if you've got to do a book proposal, you should look at it as an opportunity for an exercise for you to think about the structure of your book and the concepts that you're trying to express in your book. And use the agent. Some agents, I mentioned that they're too busy or lazy to really help you very much. But I know what I do and I know what Gordon does is we are very editorially minded and we work with an author. We know it more or less with publishers. Our authors don't always have that kind of perspective. And we work closely with an author to put their book proposal into the make it a document that really does answer the questions the publishers are going to be asking because agents do know that. Gordon and I have both, I have had 20,000 publisher rejection letters in my short life as an agent. Sometimes I feel like my job is a little like my social life in high school. But in all of that, we have, you know, we've learned what publishers are looking for and what they're not looking for. So think of a book proposal as a good experience. One of the things that happens a lot when I get a book proposal is that an author is trying to shoehorn three ideas that he's in love with into their book. And I see sometimes the two of the ideas are terrible or either that or they at least shouldn't be in this particular book. And we, and in the end of the process of having a book proposal, we have a much clearer concept of what the book is going to be. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I just, I just got a submission that that is like that exactly where it's three ideas in one, one of which should be a very personal project that's not fit for traditional publishing. And another one is a good solid debut and another one maybe at some point down the line. And so it's like if you, if you really, you know, think of it, you know, how you think of it in terms of the market that you're entering and what you're trying to do and exactly, you know, how it's going to fit in the grand scheme of things. I mean, that will, just the act of putting together that book proposal will help illuminate that, that that submission that I mentioned, by the way, with that's three different books in one. It didn't have a book proposal was just like a one page pitch. And so had that author done a little bit more of the legwork before reaching out, probably would have figured out, oh yeah, this should be more of a single concept, rather than than trying to do a bunch of different things at once. So it sounds as if when you are evaluating a proposal for a book, that you kind of come up with a strategy for that particular book, and that strategy might not actually work for the next proposal that's in your stack. Is that true? Or do you have a little bit of a formula? Or is it really on a case by case basis? How exactly you decide to pitch that book to a publisher? Well, there's no real formula. That's what makes our job kind of interesting. But part of it is figuring out who to pitch it to. And again, as I'm sure Gordon has had as many rejection letters as I do, we do have a sense of, I mean, there's hundreds of editors, so that we don't always know exactly where they're going. Like, particularly for fiction, which is it's so personal and subjective that, you know, I know a lot of agents in New York say, well, they know the perfect editor for this. They don't. They also say things like, this book, this novel has Hollywood written all over it. Do not go with an agent who ever says that. But every book is really different. And I do know editors who are only looking for history books, who are radical. They like radical politics, or they like conservative politics. So I have a sense about that. But hopefully, when I'm looking for something that's a little bit different. And that requires kind of, you know, thinking outside the box. Yeah, it's really, you know, no two workdays are exactly like, and that's why I love the job so much. I mean, it's every day has different issues and different types of projects and different, you know, things we have to focus on in the moment. There's always something that comes up, always a new emergency that we have to solve. And, you know, it's really, it's an interesting sort of, you know, way of managing everything. But yeah, I mean, there's each book and each author has their own, you know, best way of being handled as far as, you know, getting their work out there and managing their career. And it is, you know, it can be really subjective on the editor side. When you were mentioning that, Andy, I thought immediately of, I just sold a biography that, you know, it got some great interest. So one of the editors that I pitched it to just said, you know, it's this weird thing that that person always just gave me the creeps. Just I can't explain it just for whatever reason. Always, you know, you know, thought that person was a little weird. And I didn't hear that from anybody else that I pitched the book to. And so it's, yeah, it can be very subjective. And that's an interesting part of it as well. Great. You all have such amazing answers. And I'm trying to scroll through the chat here to try to find a question that will be relevant to what you just said. There's a couple of questions here about how a writer should address the pandemic if they're writing a book about set in 2020. Should they address it? Should they put it in the subtitle if there are books about a doctor? How overt should the reference or acknowledgement of what we're going through now be if you're trying to write a contemporary novel? Well, I've tried, when I make pitches, I have to write a query letter too, just like everyone else does. And at first, I used to make pitches that had to do with what was going on now. Like I had a book about how to handle disasters in business. And I was sending it out about the time of the, whatever that oil spill was in Gulf of Mexico, I'm not getting mentioning it. But people responded. They said, hey, you know, when a year and a half comes out, that's going to be out of the news. I had the same problem with the book about the Ebola, the doctor who was treating Ebola. He was calling me up from Liberia every night that he was there and, you know, acting up really crazy as well he should. And I said, I got to get this out right away. And a lot of people rejected it for that reason. They said that this story is going to be over in the area. I did get it published, but I got a lot of rejections for it. So frankly, if I got a book now about the virus, I would probably not be interested, because there's going to be a couple of books coming out about it, usually by very big names like Richard Preston or something like that, who are going to get a lot of publicity and there just isn't going to be room for a lot of other books. So I would try to come up with something that's different. Yeah, absolutely. And from a fiction standpoint, you should always look to properly represent the area that you're writing into. And so if you are writing a story set in 2020, might be difficult to sell if you've just omitted the pandemic completely. You know, you may, you can still write a contemporary novel and set it in 2019 if you don't want to deal with them with all of that as a plot point. And not every contemporary fiction work is going to now be required to mention it. Of course, it has to serve the story. But yeah, I mean, you should definitely keep that in mind. Don't don't just ignore it. Like oftentimes in contemporary fiction, I get some, I get submissions that conveniently omit the use of cell phones or, you know, try to disable the protagonist's cell phone in some way so they don't have to deal with that access to, to information. And that could be that can ring false depending upon how that's done. And so, you know, keep in mind what the keep in mind that you're writing for a reader, right? And that reader is going to have a certain set of experiences that they're dealing with and they're looking to read a story that they can connect with. I just, when I'm looking for fiction, I want something to grab me by the heart. And also, I want something that doesn't sound familiar. And I remember back in, well, I was a bookseller then, but there were like a vast number of books fiction or nonfiction coming out of N911. And at a certain point, they all sounded insane. Some of them did well. The ones by authors with big platforms in particular. But even though it sounded the same to me, if I, if I got novels about the, about the virus, I, it would be a negative at this point. I wouldn't say I wouldn't do it, because if it grabs me by the heart, I will. But I would, I would be skeptical. Yeah, that raises a good point, Andy. That's, if we're living in a post-N911 world and not every novel out there mentions N911, for example. So a lot of the stuff that we're going through right now, you know, we can, it can be beneficial to sort of think outside of your immediate situation and realize that there are, you know, we have had disasters before. We've had to deal with certain things before. So, you know, keeping in mind that that we're not necessarily reinventing the wheel here. We have a, there's been a set of circumstances that that books have gone through before. And so, you know, look to other examples if you can. All right, we have time for one more question. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how authors and marketing professionals might have to adapt to this new normal. Do you have, do you have some advice on how people can start thinking about their marketing plans now? Do you have any thoughts on what, what might work and what might have to change? Well, you should always be thinking about your marketing plans. But I, you know, I don't think this is the new normal. I think eventually this is going to go away one way or another. And when your book comes out, it's probably, the world's going to be different and we don't know how, but you are going to have to market your book. And when you write a book proposal, that's an important section of your book. They, you know, how you're going to market it. By the way, I'm not answering your question, but that's okay. I, and when you're, when you talk about how you're going to market the book, you don't have to say what, you know, what publishes already know, or you don't want to say things that make them think you have delusions at grander. So I tell people not to mention the New Yorker, not to mention Oprah, or not to mention he pray love, because the chances are you aren't going to get into the New Yorker. And they also, if, if they think you will, they will have thought about that. They want to know what you are going to do to market your book. Okay. And that may, and, you know, you, you want to tell them that you don't necessarily want to say that your mom is going to have a book party, but they do want to know what you're going to do with local bookstores, if you have a blog, you know, that sort of thing. And, and, and trying to make it sound like you're serious and you know what you're talking about. They, a lot of, a lot of authors have a very difficult time with this marketing section of their book proposal. Because, you know, let's face it, they're not marketers, I'm not either. But you got to sound like one. And you got to sound like you're enthusiastic. And you kind of know something about marketing. Okay. Don't just say I'm going to do a blog and I've got a thousand followers on Facebook. Everybody says that and publishes discount because unless your blog is doing 50,000 views a month, it probably isn't going to sell all my new books. You got to be doing, you don't have to blog, but you got to have social media one sort or another. But that's not going to make, it's not going to change the decision by a publisher. It is something you probably Yeah, it's a very good point. And I would say know your strengths and putting together a book, good book proposal will show you what your strengths and weaknesses are. And along those lines also see what is, what is realistic for the moment that you can expect your book to come out. If you have something coming out in the very near future, well, you can't lean on a tour, obviously, you're going to have to do more online stuff. But yeah, this will also change and will settle in one way or another. We may, we may see touring come back to what it once was, or it might be more limited or a part of the whole, regardless, it will be a part of the whole way that you get the book out there. And so, I mean, know your strengths, but also see what is reasonable and where you can grow your strengths. You don't want to necessarily join every social media platform just to be on every social media platform. You need to see what your best fit for. If you do a lot with, say if you're an artist, for example, you should absolutely be on Instagram. You should be on a visual medium. If you're doing, you know, how to and instructional works, you should probably be on YouTube and have instructional videos and do things like that. I mean, there are, you know, there are places that the average person goes for a certain type of information and a certain type of experience and really lean into that based on what you're offering and what you're looking to do. And then just also be creative with it, right? And have a good sense of humor about it as well. I mean, everybody's in the same situation. And so, I think of another one of my authors that just yesterday worked with her publisher to release a short video talking about her book that's coming out in July. And she did a short reading that way and joked around about being, you know, having to finish her next book while on deadline in the house with her kids and family and just, you know, connected with readers that way. I mean, even though we're all isolated, we're all looking to make connections. And so, you know, see how you can do that best. All right, one last question. How do you think this new situation might help women agents and women authors? Do you think it'll have an effect? I don't know. You'll have to ask a woman agent. But I'll try. I don't like speaking as not a woman agent. No, I don't think the current situation applies. It's something we just have to get through. Keep writing. And so agents, we're in business. We're looking for books. Okay, so it's treated as business as usual. Yeah, I don't know if that'll have any impact based on any sort of gender orientation or anything like that. I hadn't really thought of that. I just know from, you know, personal experience, most of my clients are women. And that's just what I ended up connecting with with the submissions that came in. Could have been different if different submissions had come in. So we're just looking as agents for projects that we can connect with, that we can be passionate about, and that we can see a place in the market and a career that we can grow. So that's really what we're looking for. My advice is just to put away your jigsaw puzzles. Well, thank you both for thoroughly answering the questions that I've posed to you and adding a bit of levity to this sort of depressing situation. You're lightening my spirit. And I hope that you are enlightening everyone else's, all of our guest spirits with these positive remarks. So I just want to thank you both and thank everyone who took part in the chat session. Please, you know, feel free to contact Andy and Gordon if you have any specific questions about how your book can be positioned better in this time of uncertainty. So thank you both. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. I look forward to working with you again. And thanks everyone. I know this is this, we all would rather be in a face-to-face situation and shake everybody's hand and give the people we know hugs and give people we don't know hugs. I certainly am looking forward to hosting you at Mechanics Institute in the future. And if I don't see you at the San Francisco Writers Conference or at one of the many events that the Women's National Book Association puts on, let's make a date to meet somewhere else. All right. Thank you all. Thanks, Andy. Thanks, Gordon. Stay safe and take care. Bye-bye.