 Welcome back to ThinkTech. This is Global Connection. Today we're going to talk about the asymmetric new creative models of war. We have been learning about only the last couple of years. We're going to talk about Israel and Ukraine. We're going to talk about how they are examples of new creative models of war. With Roopmati Kandikar, who I have missed, and who is back after the new year. Happy new year, Roopmati. Hello, Ajay, and a very, very happy new year to you. I missed you all too much. Let's go, Ajay. I'll begin with now. With technology, I want to say creative thinking, although creative may not be the best word for it. We have seen many new techniques, asymmetric techniques for war. We saw that with Putin, the way he handled the hacking, and the way he handled propaganda and so forth before and at the inception of his invasion of Ukraine. The way that war is going, there's so many things that have never happened before in that war. Likewise, in Israel and Hamas, we have learned so much about some draconian, dastardly things that can be done. I compare it in my own mind to the red coats and the revolutionaries, it seems appropriate these days, in the 18th century in the United States, where they stood on a hill in their red coats, and the citizens watched them. The citizens were safe while they shot each other with their long rifles. So, oh, that's different now. It seems like wars these days are addressed at the citizens. And the military is tasked with trying to protect the citizens. It's so interesting. Anyway, let's talk about it. Let's talk about how it's changed, what we have learned from Putin, what we have learned from the Israel-Hamas war right now going on. I'll identify some of the issues I think are appropriate, but you can add any ones you want. For example, IEDs, you see all these clips of the Israeli tanks moving around Gaza, and they're always moving on rubble. They're moving in cloud dirt. They're not moving on roads. Why is that? It's because they're explosive devices and mines on the roads, so they have to go outside the roads. This is new. And mines in Ukraine, mines everywhere, making it very difficult for the Ukrainians to gain territory. And then, of course, why not knock off agriculture in a good part of the country by exploding the Kokavka Dam and stopping the flow of agriculture to Central Africa and making it very hard for the Ukrainians to conduct any kind of commerce or agriculture of commerce in Ukraine. So, all of these are like no-holds-barred. We have wars now that are no-holds-barred. Do you want to comment on it? True, Jay. It's now totally asymmetrical, is the right word, because conventionally was thrown out of the window when we saw Israel deal with the Hamas terror attack and Russia. It's all but annexed Ukraine, isn't it, Jay? And they're not apologetic about it. Israel acted in self-defense. They're not apologetic about it. Putin has acted in self-pleasing manner and he's not apologetic about it. So, and nobody's accountable to the international organizations in the world. So, that is a new dimension that they have gotten. But these, you know, you see the IDF tanks through rubber because Gaza itself is a huge minefield. The entirety of the tunnels is a minefield now. And Jay, the citizens, we have spoken about it, how the citizens are used as a shield. And on the other hand, Ukraine, the citizens were not cared about. The civilian areas were bombarded haphazardly. There was no looking back at what is happening. So, two parts, places of the world, but one where civilians were defending Hamas. One where civilians did not know where to go. That's their home. Ukraine was their home. So, and Russian aggression is something which cannot be justified. But the war is so, you know, we can debate for it. We can vouch for it because of the happening, the foresee of happening again in the future. So, and we want to put into stock. So, you know, these are two things, analysts, because they don't know how to talk about the same principle cannot be implemented in both the areas. Now, that's such an important point. You know, I didn't think of that as I sketched out the discussion here today. It's the media. And the media is like, you know, the fifth column, the media tells everybody what they think is happening and what they think people are thinking. And as a result, the media is playing into the propaganda game. And so, you have to examine how the media is doing, what it's doing, why it's doing, what forces are in play in structuring the stories of various media, you know, on networks and cable. And for that matter, print press and emerging new media with YouTube. And so, you know, I suggest that this has never happened to the extent we are seeing it right now, where the media is in the mix every day reporting or giving us disinformation, but definitely on the battlefield. Yes, the rise of the pseudo liberals day, the people who are woke, but promote the most genius of atrocities. And they defend hijacking, they defend Putin's aggression, they defend civilians being killed in combat. And at the same time, I mean, you see, Jay, pseudo liberals are a very dangerous species in today's world. They'll give you a lecture of about how what is happening is real, but they twist it to that. They will defend Putin in one place, and then they will talk about Hamas being, you know, exploited, targeted, and you know, this way. But nobody will give you the right facts, you know, every point Jay, you have to take it on the pros and cons and make a neutral decision. It's always the best way to go about any news or any like you always do, you have a list of points, but all of them are at first sight, they're straight, and they are non biased. And that's the way media functions properly. But when you have a bias, you will have an inclination towards the way that you are wanting to go. And asymmetric warfare is all about how you play on vulnerabilities, the technology, the tactics that are planned. They are all about, you know, these litigaries that are studied. They're not about the conventional warfare where you have a head on collision. This is how I can hurt you in the maximum possible way with least effort. And you know, the media is now playing into the hands of the pseudo liberals in such a sad way that each voice is appreciated, which goes the right way. Yeah, so interesting that this is different when you take the composite of all these factors, including, you know, the war crimes in Bucha and, you know, Ukraine, which is still going on. The Russians intentionally bomb shopping centers, intentionally bomb residential properties and hospitals intentionally, and they've been doing that for the duration. And there's no claim that the Ukrainian army is hiding in the hospitals. No, pregnant women are hiding in the hospitals. They bomb the hospitals and children. It is such a contortion of any morality. And yet, the International Court of Justice is really not doing a job. They haven't brought up those cases where Russia has engaged in war crimes. It's not happening there. They haven't addressed, the United Nations in general hasn't addressed the war crimes on October 7th. If you could even consider war crimes, they, you know, there wasn't a war. It was an attack. It was butchery. And then now they're claiming that Israel, because it bombed various places to, you know, defend against the human shield technique. They're engaged in a war crime and we'll see that unfold. But, you know, that's it. That's it. There are thousands of war crimes investigators in Ukraine right now, but no case is pending. Nothing has happened. And then, of course, let me, let me offer another thought that really makes the war in Israel different. Tunnels you mentioned, but hostages, what insidious strategy. And you're right. It goes beyond the kinetic war. It goes to propaganda. It's a psychological battle. It's an attempt to divide the people who are attacking, divide them politically. And hostage-taking is so insidious. Your thoughts about that? Yeah, Jay. No, no, no. Two thoughts about that. Just a single list that the hostages, you know, five were found killed in a tunnel, two were sold. I mean, this, the arrest, we don't know about. You have domestic pressure on Mr. Netanyahu. And this kind of hostage situation has been unprecedented in the world. This number and, you know, the possibility that it can happen on every street in the world is what makes the war against Israel very, very, very, very important in the historical perspective. Because Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, everybody has a right of a human being. Nobody can be taken hostage on every street. And the situation is now such that they were given a free hand, weren't they, Jay? And when, you know, you have a South Africa, an apartheid nation accusing Israel of apartheid, I mean, I don't understand international diplomacy because they cannot do this. You declare, put in a war criminal, he will visit the countries which do not accept the judgment. I mean, what kind of international supervision is this? Everybody has a functioning with their own wars, and each one is free without inhibitions to continue to their goal without any restriction. I mean, if you call for international supervision, where was the univocal international condemnation after the Israel terrorist attack? You had Muslims which were pro-Muslims, some countries which were against. There was no univocal revocations for Israel, no support for Israel. Everybody should have come and said, this is a terror attack on Israel and we support Israel. They did not. That is the reality of today that people are changing the narrative. And to bring Hamas to civilian killing and all that from a terrorist attack from Israel was the very force of the media, very force of the newspapers, the televisions, the, you know, every person on the street tearing down posters. This is the kind of thing that happens. And Ukraine, I mean, you must have read the article that Zelsensky's mother-in-law was reported by Egyptian, she bought a villa, luxury villa in Egypt and he was reported killed. Now, this kind of reporting makes us see that the funding that Zelsensky goes around for is not being used in the right places. Then there is a tilt towards Putin, but what Putin is doing is aggression at his purest beast mode. So, Zelsensky should have been more careful with this kind of, you know, this much responsibility he has for Ukraine. He is not going about his functions the way he should. Well, in the war of attrition, everything is subject to attrition. Even, you know, the solidarity of your own government is subject to attrition. You know, we have fights among the Israeli government. We have fights among Zelsensky's government and over a period of time it changes. Nothing is so certain as change. You know, I'm reminded of a movie called The Tale That Wagged a Dog some decades ago with Dustin Hoffman. And it was about a completely fictitious war. It was a movie made of a completely fictitious war. It was organized for political purposes. And I think in part, we have that. And we have, you know, it's really amazing how the cameras get into, you know, the Palestinian hospitals and streets and they just seem to be there all the time. The amount of footage is extraordinary. Even the footage on October 7th is extraordinary. And it got into the hands of the Israelis too, showing you incredible atrocities. So gross that we, the public, have not seen it yet. But we've heard about it. We've heard what they have done to women, for example. So, you know, these things, you know, I guess you could say they go back to the fifth century. But you think maybe things weren't as bad in terms of some of these things, some of these technology things as they could have happened in the fifth century. But what I want to raise with you is that these things, and we haven't covered them all, these atrocities and high-tech attacks on civilians and these manipulations of the press, these destructions of agricultural institutions, the horrendous things that have happened in both places, these are not the end of it. These two wars will come to an end, okay? One way or the other, maybe, you know, we will like the result, maybe we won't. But the genie is out of the bottle. And we will see more wars because wars are a part of the human condition going forward. We always have wars. We always have copycats. And if somebody were making a list of the kind of items that you and I are talking about today in both Ukraine and in Israel in the Middle East, he would or she would repeat these things, would use the same tactics again in another place, another conflagration. We are not done with these things, I'm suggesting. I'd like your view of it. We are only starting. Yeah, Jay. I mean, conventional is out of the window forever. And like you said, like one of the shows that we mentioned that every civilian is now trying to equip themselves with their self-defense weapons. So now a war will be fought at your doorstep. The final frontier will be your doorstep. How much you can protect your own self. Earlier it would have been armies fighting with each other. And then, you know, you have surrender of prisoners. This was the normal happening. But now hostages, you have drone technology, you have trenches, you have so many new elements which have come in. And drones, you know, you have October 7th. That was such a scary thing. 3000 Hamas, paragliders coming in. So these are not detected by the radar. These are not detected by the iron dome. This was a bending of finding a loophole in the warfare. And that is the most dangerous part of this asymmetric warfare that we talk about Jay. That the enemy, when it finds itself in a lower or, you know, subordinate position, they try to find ways in which they can hurt the superior person with these kind of tactics. And these tactics require a lot of planning. We have always said that Putin did not go in unplanned. Hamas did not come in unplanned. They all expected a reaction. And Putin got the reaction. And economy is playing such a big part in all this Jay. Putin has been selling his oil like it's a bazaar. You know, he is just whoever wants it, come and take it kind of a thing. He revolutionized the dollar system. So, you know, you had, like you told about Jay, the stocks which were sold. There is so much of these elements which are involved. They were not involved in the world wars or anything. It was a simple give and take soldiers which were, you know, giving, defending the country. Now it's defending your civilians, defending your house, defending your hostages. I mean, that has come down to that without any support of any international organization or international coalition. I mean, in Libya, the UN went in with such a forceful coalition to remove Gaddafi. But where is the result of action now Jay? There is hardly any result. You have support for a terrorist attack. That is new to me. And that is dangerous for tomorrow because you have a refugee problem which is going to explode and, you know, kind of take down the European system. It's a threat. It's a real threat when you see them walking in everywhere and now they're on the American shores also. So, yeah, well, we live in a transition. It's these are transitional times. You know, the old methodologies, you know, the old strategies seem to be irrelevant. You know, for example, you know, the U.S. put some carriers out there in the Mediterranean. And there was some, and they left already. But there was some suggestion that they were exposed and that there were weapons for, you know, in the hands of people maybe who get weapons from Iran or North Korea or Russia that could make a very effective attack on a carrier. So, you know, the old methodologies, the old equipment, the old strategies, I think, are being tested. Iron Dome is a good example. They found out it was smart. As you said, they were planning this for a while. They found out if they shot a lot of rockets all of the same time, Iron Dome wouldn't be able to handle, you know, the number of rockets coming at Israel. So, you know, Iron Dome has to be upgraded. Or Iron Dome is simply over the hill, so to speak. It's no longer effective against someone who understands that rule of firing a lot of rockets. And you know, the whole notion, this goes back forever about white flags. You know, you carry a white flag and you also have modern bombs attached to you explosives. So, you march with your white flag into a group of Israeli troops and you blow yourself up. All of a sudden, white flags are not what they used to be. Children, not what they used to be. Imagine a weapon in the child's bed, a tunnel accessed under the child's bed in the child's room. That didn't happen before. You know, it seems terribly immoral. And what it is is a test of those who would be completely immoral and do outrageous things against those who are playing the game as it used to be played. So, the game, the game is changing. Then I suggest, as I said before, we've been discussing, that these things are not temporary. We will see them again. And we will also see this whole notion of outrageous conduct, immoral conduct. We will see that as a mindset. And as you said, you know, a small nation that has, you know, agents from larger, more weaponized nations like Iran, those nations will have the technology. And with that mindset, they'll do anything. They'll do asymmetric things. They'll do high tech things. They'll do very clever deceptive things against the population in general. I hate to think of it, but this is going to happen again and again. And worse than that, this mindset will allow for all kinds of new, very, quote, clever strategies and devices in the future. So it's not just what we learn on these two war fronts. It's other things that will be generated out of that kind of outrageous conduct that we haven't thought of yet, that nobody's thought of yet. We're into creative wars, are we not? True Jay, whoever thought of suicide drones? Iran is making millions out of selling Shaheen drones. They are suicide drones that we discussed about when we were discussing warfare. The war in Ukraine opened up markets for Iran under sanction. They got 100 billion dollars. What did they use it for? Funding is bullet. So this kind of consequential reactions that impact that the Ukraine war had on Israel Hamas war is phenomenal Jay. Nobody ever thought every war was fought in territory. It was never fought across the system. Now, this every war is affecting geostrategic considerations are so huge in this. The Islamic nations do not want Israel's Saudi friendship that would ruin the entire dynamics of the Middle East. This is geopolitics, which is very, very sensitive Jay. And to bring Israel and Saudi at the table, you have had two presidents, Trump and Biden, who have worked hard for it. And when it was going to culminate into, you know, it got speed at the G20. This is what happens. Islamic nations do not see Israel as a friend with Saudi. One of the biggest, strongest allies has to be away from Israel. And this terrorist attack was a good test to see how much Saudi came out in defense. If it was not like before, who could have imagined Saudi will not come out and condemn, you know, it was shocking to see how Saudi was taking a very muted stand, not such a vibrant, you know, pro-Islamic stand. They were muted because a lot of economic considerations are coming. The whole thing about asymmetric is really interesting because if, for example, the United States would be an ally for Ukraine or Israel, then what you do in an asymmetric war is you try to attack the willpower, the political will of the United States. And maybe you generate some, you know, protests on college campuses. Maybe you encourage legislators who might oppose support for Israel or Ukraine. And so what you do is you undermine the leadership of countries that might help. And so that's part of the war. Part of the war is scaring ships in Aden and attacking anybody in the Red Sea. And what you're doing is you're destroying or undermining world commerce. You're making such a problem for the whole world. So the whole world has to pay attention to you. And how does a big ship in the Red Sea deal with terrorists who are firing from undisclosed locations, who come with small boats and helicopters and the like and take over your ship? Well, these things, they're very new, very creative. And finally, you know, I suggest that we have a proliferation of multi-front wars. From going forward, wars may not be one country on another. A war now involves everybody who has any interest, political interest, support interest, weapons, productions, interest. And I would call that a world war, because so many countries are involved. If you count the number of countries that are involved in Ukraine and in Israel, you know, it's like the whole world. This is a world war, isn't it? True, true, true. So right about this day, you can't go wrong with your analysis ever. They're hurting democracy. You know, the hoodie rebels that you spoke about just now, they wanted to take revenge on Israel, but Israel is too far away, so they decided to go for the ships. I mean, how crazy can it get? They have these underlying, what do you call it, fire to fight the war, but they don't know what to do. So they will do it in their own little way on college campus in the sea. They become pirates. You know, these small things, they try to hurt democracy. Now, as you know, New York is a sanctuary place, means everybody gets shelter. Now, refugees are using this in the wrong way, but those refugees are going to come back and join the war when they get stronger. So kind of vulnerabilities have increased to such an extent that they're spread amongst us. You don't know where the point to trust is. Yeah, and you can have a situation. You can have a situation like in the United Nations. It's weak. It's vulnerable because of the Security Council problem. It's never going to be able to do anything. I'm sorry, never. The United Nations is over the hill and it can't come back. In fact, the EU is over the hill in the sense that Viktor Orban in Hungary was able to block an EU initiative to provide funding for Ukraine. He stopped it, tens of billions. And so what you have is you have weaknesses and institutional structures. And you're on one side of this asymmetric war. You look for those weaknesses and you attack those structures. And then what you get is chaos. And that's what we have now. There is no global leadership, not ours, not the UN, who then? And the world divides in two parts. The ones who want to bring the United States down. It's already on a decline, in my opinion. And those who want to support these immoral wars, which is Russia, China, and a number of others. Of course, in the Middle Eastern countries, who are devoted to killing Jews, no matter what the circumstances. So all in all, the world is dividing. It's cleaving into two parts. Those who stand for some kind of morality and those who don't. And they're all taking active shots at the other side. I'm not optimistic. Are you optimistic? We are not optimistic, but we analyze well, Jay. So with this kind of two parts that are happening right now, Jay, it's so deplorable. Don't you think, Jay? Like, earlier it would be, I'm fighting for my country. Now it is, I don't know what I'm fighting, but I'm fighting. It is exactly like that. They're fighting for commerce. They're fighting for country. They're fighting against the Jews. They're fighting for religion. I mean, there is no set convention and international organizations, which were supposed to be maintainers and implementers. There is, they refuse to put the word Hamas inside. So what can you expect from them? So, it's now, I don't expect anything of international supervision, but the wars have become so multifaceted or confused. When you don't know the aim and objective of the war, don't know what you're fighting for. Well, then if you take my thought for a minute ago, namely that the world is cleaving into two parts, those who would like the United States to decline and the others. It seems to me that this has a recipe for a continuing war. It's just that the venue might change. The venue might change from this location to another location, but it is the same forces at play doing the same things and using all that clever technology and strategy that we have seen emerging over the past couple of years. I was thinking before that, oh, this will pop up again. Well, it just may continue. And the only thing that changes is the location. What do you think? So true, Jay. I mean, I can bring you down to the location that the person on the mobile phone, when they tweet against Israel, they feel, wow, we have done something to support Amas. That is the level that it has come down to a single tweet or a single post on your Instagram or your WhatsApp will make you feel, wow, I'm fighting this kind of war. That kind of zeal and I use it often. Jingoism that is going on in people's heart is very surprising. I mean, there's a war happening in Ukraine and Russia, and you don't want to analyze it straight. You want to make it a mess. There's a terrorist attack on Israel. You want to make it a war in Israel, which is by typing and signing petitions. There is one clip where they make you sign the petition and when they give you the terms and conditions, like they will Hamas regime, the Palestine regime is so anti-LGBT, so anti-homosexuality. But you have homosexuals on the streets fighting for them. They'll be thrown off a roof in Saudi if they go over there. But they don't have the brains or rational to think what are they supporting? I mean, you have to have a rational behind every single support. They don't have that, Jay. And so they feel, yes, they can do it. They can do it. They're on the wall front of every mobile. Well, I think what it tells us is that these various animosities and strategies, negative strategies and destructive processes are not going to stop. They're out there. As I said, the genie's out of the bottle, and you cannot put the genie back in the bottle, and you cannot stop them. Everything that we've talked about here today is going to continue in one way or the other. And the common denominator for all of these things, that they are an undermine of civil liberties and civil rights. They are an undermine of morality, kindness, caring for the human condition. They lead to destruction of democratic institutions, of all institutions. They lead to continuing violence against everyone. There's no exceptions. And continuing chaos, they take us, all of us, into chaos. And all the while, this is so biblical, all the while, climate change inexorably marches on while nobody pays attention to it. How much of that do you agree with? And where do you think we're going? 100%, 100% I agree with you. Jay, our symmetric, we're talking about climate change. The warriors of climate change are now supporting Hamas. They are talking of Israel, Hamas, Ukraine, Russia. They've forgotten the agenda. They're forgetting the funding. You know, the COP2628, which happened, you had to have a lot of things which had to be discussed. And like you said, the wars need to be resolved in order to get commerce back on track, green revolution back on track, so that you can do something better for the world. The world is deteriorating any which ways to climate change. But these wars are just affecting the diversion of funds towards this climate change. And Jay, one point I want to make that when you saw the hostage-taking, I mean, it's important. We have so much technology, we have the iron dome, everything. But it was like a 1930s movie where they were picking up hostages on a motorcycle. And you couldn't do anything about it, but watch on television. Yeah, we see it all. So the helplessness that comes in asymmetrical warfare is also one of the main points that are very, very disturbing for vulnerable people. Very disturbing. And I don't know if we know the whole of it. You know, we talked today, Rukmani, about asymmetric war. We have examples. We have things that do come to our attention. We have things that are reported to us in the media. But there are other things. I mean, for example, in the week before October 7th, there were huge short-stales in the New York Stock Exchange with insider information, knowing there was going to be a massacre on October 7th. And they made a ton of money. We never heard any more about it since then. But I suggest to you that later on we'll find out more. We'll find out more of these very, very clever techniques. Well, thank you, Rukmani. It's been great to talk to you, to circle back with you. And I look forward to more discussions in a few days. Thank you so much. Hello, Ajit. It's always precious to be with you.