 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this session of the Association for Baha'i Studies annual conference. Over the next hour, it's my pleasure to host you for the presentation, Developing an Approach to Discourse. For the next hour, we will hear from four members of the US Baha'i Office of Public Affairs, and we will learn about what they have been learning in their work in the area of discourse. Over the last five years, the Office of Public Affairs with the Baha'is of the United States has been reorienting its focus, moving beyond pure representation of the Baha'i community and national spaces. OPA has been learning about what it means to contribute to prominent national discourses, including race, media, sustainable development, economic inequality and human rights. This shift in focus has also reorganized to some degree, the OPA self-conception from an entity that articulates of a high perspective in national spaces to one that builds collaborations among like-minded people and organizations, developing a common vision on how to advance society. So today, four members from the Office have prepared a presentation, which will really be a conversation based around different questions that they're learning about. And we invite the audience after about 40 minutes to pose their questions, you can actually enter them in the chat box under this video as the presentation is ongoing, but we will leave room at the end for discussion. And now I would invite May to please introduce yourself and the other members in this presentation. Thank you. Thank you very much, Andrea, for that wonderful introduction. My name is May Lample, and I'm a race discourse officer with the U.S. Baha'i Office of Public Affairs. I'll be starting us off today by giving a little bit of an introduction to our work. And then we'll have a chance to hear from some of our other panelists, and I'll be posing some questions to them for them to share their experience based on their work and the work of our office. Our office is an agency of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States, and we're tasked with representing the American Baha'i community at the national level. And our office is learning about contributing to the discourses of society that have a significant bearing on the well-being of the country through applying Baha'i principles and accumulated experience applying those principles. So Andrea mentioned some of the areas of discourse that our office focuses on, and I'll just repeat them. So we focus on the environment, the equality of women and men, economic justice, racial justice and unity, media and human rights. And the last three will really be the focus of our conversation today as the discourse officers representing those areas are here today on the panel. So our work at the level of discourse is really guided by the idea that the challenges that we're witnessing humanity undergo can't be solved without the illumination of the revelation of Baha'u'llah. And we know that the type of change we're envisioning will not come about solely through the efforts of the Baha'i community, but will be the result of all individuals and groups contributing to the advancement of civilization. And we're working alongside others who are deeply engaged in pursuing new knowledge, social progress and transformation. The work that we're doing now is part of a process that can be seen as a first step that will take decades, perhaps even centuries to unfold. And as part of our work, we try to read different aspects of social reality from a Baha'i perspective, build relationships with the diversity of individuals and organizations, attend a variety of social spaces where conversations on these subjects are taking place, as well as create our own spaces and develop content that can be used to further these conversations. And although we focus on differing discourse areas, we often address foundational elements that cut across any one specific area. We talk about elements of human nature, the nature of change, the kind of social transformation we're trying to build, these key elements that are part of our conceptual framework for action. We talk about human beings as being both spiritual and material, capable of great feats of generosity, self-sacrifice and growth. We discuss the importance of change through cooperation and reciprocity, in which our means are in line with our ends, in which individual community and institutions recognize their roles in social transformation and seek to support each other in the process of change. We talk about the need for transformation at the level of individual and at the level of institutions, and that these two types of transformations have to tap in simultaneously. We talk about unity and justice as two foundational principles for a new world order that need to operate both as angles and as operating principles. And we talk about learning as a mode of operation in which all assume a posture of humility. And these represent just a few of the elements of our framework that we try to bring into our work at the level of discourse, and our panel will share more about this in their presentations. The guidance given to us by the Universal House of Justice and its July 22nd message is extremely relevant to the work carried out by our office, in which they stated, within the context of the framework governing your activities, it is necessary to carefully examine the forces unfolding around you to determine where your energies might reinforce the most promising initiatives, what you should avoid, and how you might lend a distinctive contribution. It is not possible for you to affect the transformation envisioned by Bahá'u'lláh, merely by adopting the perspectives, practices, concepts, criticism, and language of a contemporary society. Your approach instead will be distinguished by maintaining a humble posture of learning, weighing alternatives and light of his teachings, consulting to harmonize differing views and shape collective action, and marching forward with unbreakable unity in seried lines. So now I want to invite my colleagues into this conversation where they'll introduce themselves and start with giving a brief introduction to their work. Hi everyone, I hope you're all doing well. My name is James Samimi-Farr, and I'm the media officer for the US Baha'i Office of Public Affairs, and I think it's apt in a certain way that we started with my introduction because I think my role changed a lot when I first joined the office in 2017. I was right around the time that our office was experiencing a bit of a transition as far as how we approached the work. So when I interviewed for this position, and when I read about the description and was told about the job, in many ways it was described cheaply as a communications position. My job would be to place press releases concerning the persecution of the Baha'is of Iran and Yemen, pitch stories to journalists on these issues of the persecution, and essentially try to have stories about the persecution of our community in the national media. However, when I joined the office, it became clear that this role was actually a lot more broad, and the way that the House of Justice and some of the House of Justice's offices and agencies were encouraging us to think about this role was a lot more broad as well. So there was some guidance or some advice really that was issued stating that while it would be important to learn about the techniques of communications, what would be far more profound would be to enter into an evolving conversation with media professionals and practitioners about the role of media in society. So my work in a sense overnight kind of got flipped into this discursive mode of functioning in which I really had to think, okay, what is the role of media in society? How do I even begin to approach this question? And so that's really what I've been thinking about for the last three years and trying to understand it. And my work has involved a number of different things, you know, building relationships with different collaborators, which cheaply means journalists and media academics, people who think about it on a regular basis. And actually right now I'm trying to develop some spaces where I host a number of journalists in an ongoing conversation about the role of media in society. And we discuss a number of different themes, including but not limited to the limits and politics of objectivity, the importance of narrative, different questions like this disinformation, issues that are prominent in media discourse and where there is an opportunity to correlate aspects of the Baha'i teachings to these questions. And I think I'll leave it there for now because I don't want to take too much time in my intro. Thank you very much James. Hi, good afternoon, good evening, good morning. My name is Tishika McBean and I'm the Human Rights Officer for the US Baha'i Office of Public Affairs. I work primarily on issues related to the defense of the Baha'is in Iran and Yemen. But in addition, I explore emerging discourses related to human rights and areas that intersect with the other discourses in the office, as may outline a few moments ago, such as the role of religion in advancing gender equality and conceptions of justice in the United States. Before I joined the office, I came with a background in international law and domestic law, specifically human rights, maladies and maltreatment, family law, criminal law. And so having this background and thinking how to engage in discourse was very, was very interesting in that the conversation, the emerging conversation and justice connects with my past, but also it's emerging discourses. Discourse right now in the United States. In the past, I worked as a defense attorney for formerly in cars with individuals, where my main role was to remove barriers to employment housing and successfully reintegrate these individuals back into society. And through my experience working in this field. I found that the US criminal justice system had some oppressive elements. And it also seemed that the structure of her justice system effectively alienated people who had, who were convicted of crime. So four years ago, March 2016, the conversation regarding justice or criminal justice reform were mostly tailored or tied to policy initiatives, change in laws, passing legislation. But right now in this current atmosphere, the conversation about criminal justice reform is at the national level. And it seems like, you know, groups regardless of political affiliation social group, religious affiliation all agree to some extent that you know the criminal justice system needs some level of reform. And coincidentally, there are also emerging narratives about radical changes that is necessary for this criminal justice reform. And uniquely, these changes seem to invite dialogue and conversation that are centered on certain spiritual themes like cooperation accountability forgiveness, etc. And surveying this area, this specific new emerging line of thought regarding underlying foundational elements. I found that there are certain areas that the teachers of the how law can actually illumine this conversation. And they said there's, you know, throughout our framework there's there, there are certain themes that cut across all the discourse areas, you know, the ability of humankind. And with regards to justice the teachings of the how law is that it's filled with insight. And it begs us to think about how do we create a new framework of justice, especially since you know there are certain elements in a national discourse that lends itself to the spiritual underlying principles. So I'll stop here and we'll continue the conversation. Thanks. Good evening or good afternoon everyone my name is PJ Andrews. And I also serve as a alongside may as a race discourse officer for the Office of Public Affairs. And our work has, we've been, we've been, we came on at the end of 2017. And a lot of our work initially was really learning how to develop certain certain capacities that that were sort of critical to be able to contribute to discourse at the national level and one of those was really being able to have a thorough reading of the discourse on race in America. So we actually took some time to map it we took some time and of course it's an evolving exercise but we did a lot of work just trying to identify what are the major themes in the discourse on race. What are the sub themes within those major themes what are the who are the major thinkers who are advancing the discourse. Most prominently and loudly but also who are maybe making some of the most some really interesting contributions much more quietly and under the radar and trying to really catch the full breath of that landscape. And of course we can't, we couldn't do that completely but it was a really helpful exercise for us to understand, understand it better and see where where we might be able to start applying some principles from the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh in a meaningful way. And I think early on in our discourse in our exploration, we noticed that there was maybe a tension between the relationship between justice and unity in the national discourse on race. That sometimes they felt like they were pitted against each other and also that that understandings of them were quite limited and maybe dominated by a materialistic vision of the two of justice and of unity. And so we thought that, in fact, the faith has incredible things, incredible depth to offer to a discourse on justice and unity. And we were guided very early on by a statement of Bahá'u'lláh where he says, the purpose of justice is the appearance of unity. So that statement, and if you've seen us present in other spaces you might have heard this, but it's been a, it's sort of been a guiding light for us in terms of how we really think about the relationship between these two, these two cardinal principles. But of course they're so huge. There's, it's really hard to approach those, the relationship between justice and unity in such an abstract way. And so it's, we found a few discourses that have allowed us within the broader discourse on race that have allowed us to explore that a little more deeply. So one is related to conceptions of history and embedded in the discourse on truth and reconciliation. A lot of work has been done globally around truth and reconciliation to repair from, from basically human atrocities. But there's been very little, although some meaningful work around truth and reconciliation in terms of the history of race in America. I'm showing a feel that in fact, since the killing of George Floyd, it's actually taken on an incredible legs, but we've been following this discourse for a number of years and, and I think, in a sense, history is an expression of truth. Understanding the history of what has happened is an expression of truth. And reconciliation in a sense is an expression of unity. But there is a bridge between truth and reconciliation and that is his repair. And the idea from that there needs to be some effort to repair from harm done from from the history of history of harm done so a lot of our work has been that working with groups of people who are who fall in the world of developing historical narratives around justice that help us understand who we are and help us then move forward. So, so that's one area. We've also been working in the area of expanded conceptions of justice that Tishiko was touching on but restorative justice, reparative justice, healing justice, to name a few that help us transform or transformative justice that help us transform into something new and different. And then to be able to begin a conversation on on reconciliation as an expression of unity. And then two other areas that we've been keenly interested in is is what we sort of talk about becoming champions of justice. What does it look like for everyone to contribute to to this process of racial healing and transformation and realizing that we all have different roles and responsibilities to play depending on our social position in society. So we've been exploring with different groups and organizations. What it looks like for all to be able to contribute to transformative processes of racial healing. And then and then that find that sort of leads to and connects very closely to another theme, which is that of participation. So I think the participation actually in 2010 and the 28 December 2010 message, or might have been the reservoir 2010 but the House of Justice says justice demands universal participation. So, so this idea that in the process of transformative work that everyone needs to contribute there really isn't any sidelines. So what does it look like to create the conditions in society for all to be able to find their, their role and to contribute collaboratively to a process of transformative social change around around racial justice and unity. So those are a few of the broad themes that we explore there there are others but I think as we get into the questions of this panel will be able to to maybe give some concrete examples. Thank you. I was hoping you guys could talk about why we contribute at the level of thought and what we hope to see through these contributions. And continuing the trend I'll offer some brief initial reflections, you know I think this is this is a question that we often pose within ourselves and as behais you know I think it's something that we often think about because we're such an active community you know we're so used to getting out and trying to do stuff and putting all this emphasis on, you know getting out there and contributing something to social change and to social progress that when we talk about something at the level of that there can be a certain wariness around it, you know, and when one idea and one quote that I find supremely helpful in that regard is I always think about to this remark from Abdul Baha in Paris talks where he, he said that the reality of thought is his thought. And for me this just has such profound implications. And we know you know in later on in that very same passage he goes on to say Abdul Baha goes on to say that thought is useless without action, you know, but, but implied in his statement I think is that meaningful action cannot occur without sound developed thinking behind it. All human beings are not automatons, the way that we move through life the way that we seek to create social change and contribute to the prosperity of our society both spiritual material. These contributions are propelled by sets of ideas that shape our actions. And with respect to my own discourse area, you know there's another quote from Abdul Baha that I often return to a lot and it's that he writes the publication of high thoughts is the dynamic power and the arteries of life. It is the very soul of the world. So, clearly there's something very important there for us to consider has by as I think you know and, and for me, being engaged in media discourse is particularly interesting and almost a little bit meta in a certain way. Because I think, you know, media and our media systems. They're one of the preeminent spaces in which thought itself becomes public media systems are places where thoughts themselves are mediated to the public they're shaped and explored and understood. And there's a sense of trying to create you know a public mind in a way through our media systems. And, you know, there's relative degrees of success and failure and all of that. But nevertheless, I think it's sort of an important point to consider when you're thinking about about media generally. And I would say also you know journalism as an industry it's it's somewhat already predisposed to self reflection there are a lot of, you know, different think pieces different ideas floating around about what the nature of journalism is and how it should be but these are often limited to very specific and discreet band of ideas so I think in my focus area and the role of media and society I often think about how to evolve media to realize its its role more the the role that Abdullah describes as the publication of high thoughts being the very soul of the world. And for me this this comprises a couple of different things. I think media should be a place where we come to understand the forces and processes shaping shaping our society and our world and then also enable the diffusion enable the distribution of ideas that are that are contributing to the transformation of society and its movement toward the lesser piece toward a unified and just civilization. And I think we have a sense, often an immediate discourse of this first point of trying to understand the world around us maybe in a certain way, though many might call that into question itself. But the second point, I think of diffusing kind of helpful ideas and examples that are that are occurring across the world to address social change and social ideas I don't think that's explored. Quite enough in the conversation that I've observed on the national level, you know, mainstream or traditional media can be somewhat agnostic, I think towards social change. So I think that's really what I'm what I'm hoping to do through this contribution level thought is really sort of reshape the thinking and framework behind how we think about media and move it toward more of a vision of what's what's described in the context, you know, but how memorably described media as a really newspapers as a mirror of the world. And this is a short aphorism but it contains so many, you know, beautiful resonances and implications. And so I think through through our work, we're trying to sort of tease that out those implications and rebuild it a new framework through which to address these things. I think that to address this question, you know, great thinkers of all throughout history have always harness the, you know, the idea that thoughts are important. Albert Einstein said that and that's the cool that, you know, underlines some of my thinking as well. And that, you know, we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we use when we created them. And obviously this makes sense. Otherwise, we just create the same different manifestations of the same problem by the old way of thinking, you know, nothing can solve the issue is stagnated. But when we engage in genuine conversations at a level of thought, you know, we draw from our experiences or education, culture science. And now, in terms of thinking of adding religion to the list of insights that you draw from when contributing to level of thought, creates something new and different. And I think with the introduction of religion as a source of insight, it lends itself to, you know, create and shape something new. You know, as in the office for the past two years, and it's clear that religion as a body of knowledge is vast and affords of the opportunity to add, you know, new insights, you know, create new narratives or new or complete narratives. And, you know, if you think about, you know, why do we focus on the level of thought. And if you know, thought influences speech, emotions, actions. And to me, so to me it makes sense that when you engage in a level of thought, you also influence these other areas as being outlined a few moments ago. But considering the emerging conversation and justice, and what my plans are, I just plan to continue to engage in as many spaces as possible, and freely share insights from the writings of the how law, and be attentive to how, you know, various groups are interacting with these concepts. And I first started looking at this conversation on justice, and especially with my background as a defense attorney. I'm trying to find some hope, hope in the oppression of Bahá'u'llahs quote about justice which says I'm going to read this. The light of man is justice quench it not with the contrary winds of oppression and tyranny. So it follows that any system that is oppressive cannot be just. And considering my prior work, and this quote. It allowed me to think how do we then create systems of justice that do not lead to oppression. And when I engage with, you know, fellow attorneys or activists on this particular concept is a very unique and refreshing thought that lends itself to very holistic conversations. And in doing so thinking about a system that doesn't lead to oppression. You also think about what is the role of the community, the institutions and individual in achieving this particular mandate. And then, you know, how do we create a justice system whereby the end results are coherent with the means of this injustice. And as you as you as you pull compared at these thoughts, new ideas and conversations would emerge. For example, how do we even begin to imagine a system where punishment would not lead to further oppression of the community, perpetual punishment of the perpetrators that you know what I saw in my prior job, or a state of affairs where the victims are not truly recompense, which, you know, PJ alluded to in terms of restorative justice, and also institutions that are burdened and corrupt. And in that the lack of transparency among other things causes public distress. And so, such, such ideas and a new thought lends itself to holistic conversation, even, you know, maybe like two days ago, I came across this Baha'i inspired text about consultation. Part of the text read that getting to a just solution may create a new problem, which is worse than the original one. And that had me thinking, if we, if we delve more into this particular line, and we, and we, and we think about how do we then create a new understanding of the criminal justice system, especially punishment. And had me thinking it made me harken back to my prior job. And the question that I thought that was kind of going over with this particular line how do we get into a just solution may create a new problem which is worse than the original one. I think about a scenario whereby a father, you know, kill someone. He is given a life sentence, but he leaves behind five children foster care. So it's a just action according to how our site, our society is currently structured. Does it create a worse problem. And if so, how do we then create something new, etc. And, you know, ideas, or thoughts around in the one is of humanity and shifting, you know, conversations from what is just for me to what is just for us or what is just for the community also lends itself to like new questions and new thoughts. And, um, yes, I'm going to leave it there and we'll pick it up in the other question. Thank you. Yeah, so I'll just add a few other thoughts about this. And maybe as I do so I can I can also start to address our second question which is why is building relationships important when it comes to contributing at the level of thought. And so just thinking about what my colleagues have shared about why it's important to work at the level of thought and its connection to relationships. So one thing that that I was I was thinking about is how there's sort of this intimate connection between language and consciousness. And so, as as your consciousness advances so does does your language and then language as to she was saying influences action. So there's these these all these things all are connected very intimately connected. And so, you know, we talk a lot in the faith about having a conceptual framework for action. And the conceptual framework is a is a tool by which there are certain beliefs principles convictions assumptions about human nature and reality that guide your guide your thinking in the way that you act. And I think one of the greatest powers of a society that we that we currently have that's quite oppressive is that people aren't really given the, aren't really the capacity isn't developed to be able to connect their beliefs their thoughts their actions their conceptual framework to the things that they do so then what ends up happening is there's sort of inconsistency between means and ends right so your principles and your beliefs aren't always aligned with your actions but when you're able to articulate well these are the things that I believe in this is and then this is the way that I act as a result of my convictions. It's quite empowering. And I think, you know, a lot of what we do and in our work is try and really think about how we can unearth some of the hidden assumptions that that underpin, you know, social order of American society, and not to say that they're all good or bad just to be actually lay them out on the table, and then say okay well if this is the way that our society, these are the beliefs convictions that our society is currently structured under, or around what needs to go and what needs to stay and what needs to evolve. And so then, you know, just to give an example so one assumption that I think is exist, you know exist in our society is that change happens to conflict and that that generally we are we we advanced to competition. And so then that has a lot of impact on the way that we even we even think about the way the way that progress can occur. And so, you know, in our, in a high perspective we might say that change actually happens to collaboration or reciprocity. And so thinking well how can, how can you advance thinking that enables language to evolve around a, you know, collaborative action and reciprocity. And so then just to connect it to this question of relationships, and how conceptual frameworks, maybe get brought forth so there's a friend and colleague that we have that man I've been been working with for about a year and a half now. And he was recently developing a series of talks with with four organizations in Washington DC and they're all basically national organizations base here. And he was talking about some of the difficulties that he was having that each of the organizations came with certain need institutional needs, and he was trying to navigate those institutional needs. And, and I was because of my, my close relationship with him. I, you know, he, I was able to sort of present the idea of, well what would it look like to have a process of learning among these four organizations, where you don't see as trying to compromise around certain institutional priorities, but actually trying to find over the course of the series of presentation that you're contributing together to a sort of unity of thought a deeper level of unity of thought that might actually bring you closer together and help you rise above what you see as things that keep you separate that that are sort of barriers between your two organizations, you these four organizations. So anyway, so I just wanted to sort of connect the dots of how my ability, the ability of having an evolving relationship in this particular context allowed me to sort of help help my friend think about some of the assumptions that we're depending his decision making process and maybe bring in some different principles that were alluded by the revelation and some of the work that man are doing to think about how he he is creating social spaces that advanced thinking. Yeah, it's so interesting that you say that PJ I think. And also works, it works both ways in a certain sense to that, you know, as as Baha'is we were equipped with a very general sense of the revelation and its implications but, of course, we would never believe that, you know, we had it all figured out and and I often like to think of the life of an idea in a certain sense is like building a snowman and here I'm really betraying my Canadian roots here but you know when you're building a snowman. You know, think of like the initial momentum that's propelled I like to think of like the force of the revelation you know and maybe that first little like snowball that we're rolling is is us you know kind of contributing our understanding of it. And it develops have to becomes a more defined object you know it really depends on the contributions of others those other little bits of snow they get picked up in it and then that's how it truly develops into something, you know, substantial so I think we really need a process of collective inquiry that involves all the members of society to help elaborate and elucidate. You know some of the principles with which, with which we're equipped you know and they kind of lend to a much more holistic understanding of these principles you know and I think that's that's a big part of it as well. And just to add to that I think that relationships just allows that space for deep holistic conversations I don't think that you will go deep if you don't have a trust and relationship with someone else. I mentioned that in thinking of, you know, the bodies of knowledge that we glean insight from. If you want to glean insights from religious texts that I think having a relationship allows that to naturally come in into a conversation. And I just want to add that may do you have any thoughts on this particular question. Well I was just going to say something that we found of benefit is that I mean I think it's also something that we're also seeing through the Institute process it's not surprising that it also is relevant to us in a participation discourse. But the strength of building relationships with people allows you to go more into depth around particular ideas and to explore concepts I mean what PJ was saying around the idea that part of our contribution to discourse is really thinking about what are the underlying assumptions that underpin our actions and our beliefs. We don't have a lot of space to actually do that in society think about why do we believe what we actually believe. So that's one of the things that we try to do in the spaces that we create, and we mentioned specifically to our friends and collaborators from wider society who joined us in our spaces. But this is really an opportunity for us to step back from our day to day obligations, and to think about why we're doing what we're doing essentially. And I think that we've also found especially in our particular discourse area, PJ and I that the quality of the relationships we have with the people that we're working with allow us to have a type of trust and a type that allows for a depth of conversation that we wouldn't otherwise have. Not everything we necessarily believe is behind around the elimination of racism is is popular is something that everyone believes is easily digestible in a matter of a few talking points. But when we have relationships with people, it allows us to offer those thoughts humbly and to explore them and people are receptive to those ideas because they trust us and know that we're coming from a particular sincere place of wanting to see the elimination of racism. I mean if you think about the idea that we essentially as Baha'is or my understanding is that we're also in the that we are we have an understanding of identity that exists beyond just a racial identity and this underlying oneness of humanity that's not as though there though there's a growing understanding of that. I think there are also it's popular in our in our society to want to really hold on hold on tightly to certain racial because we conflate or strongly associate race and culture, which has I mean that's another topic which has elements of validity, but I think that people are willing to understand why it is we might want to move beyond a racial identity. When they understand that what we're looking for is an elimination of racism and one that actually appreciates the diversity and experiences that people have had. So that's just to give one example but I know that we also want to allow time for questions. So, I'm not sure if Andrea if you wanted to pose a few questions to us and that will will be happy to respond. Sure. Thank you so much for this very rich conversation. And the first question I think would build on what you were just talking about me, which is this trust and this ongoing dialogue you have with collaborators in different areas of discourse. So the question is, have you found agreement or a like minded response from those that you engage with in areas relating to the conceptual framework elements and principles in each area of discourse. Yeah, it's a really interesting question and actually a pretty active area of learning for us is to to try and gauge how people respond to the introduction of ideas. You know, it's interesting we so we host our office hosts quarterly dialogue on faith and race that brings together national faith based organizations. So to explore the question, the overarching question what is the role of religion and the elimination of racism recognizing that religion has had has been an incredible force to sustain racist thinking and patterns, but also has is an incredible force to transcend. And as is the path to sort of true identity right so so then how do we explore this this this complex history of religion and race and so so this is the purpose of the space that we create. And it's a pretty consistent space there's about 5050 people are so calm on a somewhat regular basis they usually about 25 people each time. And, and I think, you know, we've been able to create the discussion papers that guide that space that are that allows us the opportunity to introduce by ideas to relevant topics on the discourse on to the discourse on race. And, and because of its coherence we have been able to sort of track a little bit the evolution of thought within the participants over time but I think it's really more at this at this point still in one on one relationship so it's in those between the sessions we really do to we're very intentional about sort of visiting all of the participants as much as possible. In person or over zoom phone calls just to kind of check in with them and continue the conversation and find other avenues of collaboration and I think it's in those sort of smaller settings as more intimate conversations that we have recognized you know, people's thinking changing but I also think that, you know, the evolution of what's happening in this country also affects people so whatever is unfolding in the country at that time you know so, like one participant was feeling particularly hopeless at one point and then the next dialogue she came back and was thinking about the sort of ideas that tended towards hope or resonating much more with that participant. So I think it's also about having a faithful presence in a space that that sort of presents certain ideas in a certain posture over time that can also influence people's thinking, cumulatively. You know, like mindedness is a continuum like any other you know and sometimes it simply starts with a spark of reciprocity but it can often develop relatively quickly into something rather exciting and I think, you know when I first started trying to enter into media spaces and have conversations about the role of media society I certainly had a lot of trepidation representing myself as a Bahá'í in these spaces. You know, people the connection wouldn't necessarily be clear you know why does why does a Bahá'í care about the role of media in society what do you what are you really about here and that sort of thing. But there's one example of like mindedness that I think is really interesting and exciting that I'd like to just briefly touch on and that was. So some years ago there was, there was a communications professional journalist was who was contracted by the Bahá'í National Center in the US to help out with some communications work, and during her time with the Bahá'í is the really inspired by our principles of consultation are principles of accompanying others. And she actually started a journalism movement based on this, which is, you know, she might not say that she started her name is Jennifer Brandell and she has an organization called Harkin, which has really just kickstarted this whole wave of engagement with them so thinking more intimately about the role of a journalist and, and the relationship with their audience. So she's been doing wonderful things with this organization and she specifically sites the principles of the faith as being one source of inspiration for her work. Fast forward a couple years. She learned Jennifer learned that there was another journalist for the Atlantic a writer of books her name is Amanda Ripley, who is working on a book on how to transcend conflict and polarization. And Jennifer through her experience with the Bahá'í faith said, Oh, Amanda, you should really talk to some some Baha'is, you know, and so Jennifer was connected to a Baha'i who then connected her to our office. And we actually had an interview that's that's going to be forthcoming in her book about about this that kind of describes the Baha'i approach to consultation the Baha'i approach to elections and these kind of things. And she just had such a wonderful conversation that she actually joined my own regular media roundtable conversation so now we're in regular conversation with each other and and trying to develop some ideas together. And it was just this beautiful sort of many threaded, you know, relationship of reciprocity through one person who had been connected to the Baha'is, you know, then found enough, you know, connected another person to the Baha'is, and, you know, it's a modest, it's a modest thing at this stage, but there's there's so much potential in I think. And I think I could also add that because, you know, I mean, I'm engaged in these immersion conversations so I go around different spaces and see what people are talking about see if there's any spiritual incisor conversation happening and on these one on one conversation that PJ was talking about. When I mentioned, for example that you know, justice shouldn't be oppressive if the system is oppressive that means it's not just, and that you can see the spark and the expression of people receiving that information. Just, just, just, you know that there's this, the animated force of the house revelation touches everybody. So when you mention a phrase or a quote that resonates with people. I think the gauge that response you see, you know, the way in which people follow up with you or send articles or, you know, to sheep you this might be interested into your work and keep those relationships building. So I think that, you know, you know, join as much from the teaching of the how a lot because that is the bridge that connects so many people on these emerging issues, and just gauging their receptiveness or the way, you know, the lights that eyes would light up just just listen to a phrase or a new concept and see in the way in which they engage with that concept. I think at this initial stage, that is the way in which I'm gauging the like mindedness and the follow up conversations and the follow up email or the tweets or in something of that nature. Thank you. I wanted to talk about this question too because I think we have like, I don't have maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone, but for myself like an evolving idea of what like minded means. Whereas initially, I think when we I first started the job like minded really meant people who who you can do who from a very basic foundation we understand things in a similar way so like okay they're also people who are seeking to eliminate just racism. And maybe are following similar methods. But I think that the lot that I've also come to appreciate more and more that one of our roles as Baha'is is to create to higher and higher levels of unity, so that even if our methodology is is is different. How can we reach out to or be in conversation with organizations that have similar end goals and I think that one of the things we've also been thinking about is how do we engage people in a conversation, like differing organizations that are seemingly not actually in conversation with each other, or who perhaps approach things from a different, different way I mean I don't want to talk too much about this example because it's not my specific discourse area but I know in our, our discourse officer who's focusing on economic justice is creates a regular space for people who are engaged in issues of around this discourse area. And she's really done a great job of reaching out to people who previously wouldn't necessarily want to be able to table together because they really didn't understand their work as overlapping in any way, but through the space they've, they've sort of come to understand like where their areas of overlap whereas their areas of unity and I really think that as Baha'is that's something that we're really trying to learn to do as we participate in this course. Thank you. So the next question we have I think is touching on this distinction with national discourses versus discourses that different communities might be contributing to at a local level. The next question is, does your office support efforts or provide advice for efforts at the local level. Our mayor has proclaimed his goal to eliminate racism in Erie, Pennsylvania, and what would be, you know, a good approach for benefiting from behind inspired ideas. Yeah, I think that in our, one of the things that may and I think about is is is that the national discourse on race unfolds at many levels and it definitely is. There is a lot to learn about what is happening at the local level in fact, some of the richest most interesting things is that's the case so just to give an example. James May and I went to Detroit for about a week a few years ago. And it was, it was, I think it kind of as an example of how local and national come together so we went to a national conference called Facing Race that brought together people from all over the country. And we were able to, you know, learn a lot, meet a lot of people it was a very good learning experience. And I think, I think we were, we presented I can't remember but but anyway so it was, you know, also an opportunity for us to share some ideas but then we were also able to work and connect with we use that time, you know, traveling to Detroit to connect with local organization and there's an organization called the Bog Center, which does a lot of organizing in East Detroit for the last, I don't know, 50 years, and we were able to meet with their staff and representatives we met with a local university Wayne State University. We met with a program that does work. It's called it's actually a behind spy program called M rule, which is a multiracial university living experience. It's a program that has a number of their alumni who still lived in the Michigan area doing work locally to see how that experience and M rule influence their lives and their thinking. So I think, you know, it was it was actually quite useful for us to be both at the at a national space but then to be in a local space. And I think the work that that mayors offices are doing right now is is great because in some ways cities are not enmeshed in such political gridlock that we have at the at the at the national level. And so constructive approaches can be taken much more often more easily and openly. And so, so I think there's a lot of mayors, especially in the south that are doing that are are young and coming from a different perspective and are doing very interesting work. So, so yeah I think that's that's a great question. Our actually we are office fields questions such as these from local spiritual assemblies around the country. So, I'm, to be honest, like we couldn't have this conversation more in detail. So I could give you the email address for highs us at us bnc.org. Great actually one of the questions was how to be in touch with your office following this presentation. So that's great maybe the, the email address can be posted visually so people can know how to reach you. Sure, definitely. Maybe a final question as we're getting close to the end of the session is about the the power of media. And this question is how can we stop the dividing force of cable internet media from further segmenting society. Well I'm going to assume that was directed at me. I wish I had a great answer for you it's a very complex and excellent question and it's one with which the national discourse on media is very gravely concerned. You know, and I think I think for the kind of change that you're you're alluding to in your question would really require a complete systemic overhaul of our media system which is based on a number of faulty premises, that contribute to the phenomenon you identify of division and segmentation. And I think one is the sort of prevalence of conflict in all areas of public discourse but particularly in our media there's a sense that the best ideas occur through contention. So the premise that I think will require significant overhaul I also think there's an issue with something as vital as a media system, being subject to the whims of market forces, and being sort of needing to adhere to a to a model that generates profit to the exclusion of other values. I think that's a very dangerous premise for public information to be based upon. There's a number of conversations around this by a number of media scholars more more erudite and more important than I am. Finally, I think on an individual level and I think this is this is really important is just to recognize that what's occurring what what what we were so often disturbed by reviewing our social media feeds and watching cable news. These things may have a sort of internal coherence and compulsion but you know if we if we get out in the neighborhood, and we're, and we're kind of engaged in the framework of the plan and serving in our in our neighborhoods and communities. This reality, it's not consistent with with that one, you know we find a different world in a certain sense. And that's a great comfort to me at least to realize that these sort of these flashy contentious images that are often put before our eyes they're almost like snow globes you know, and that they do have a sort of internal consistency and they look very appealing in a certain sense but it's not the real world, you know. And that's a very short and incomplete answer to your excellent question. And if you'd like you can you can certainly follow up with with me by email after after the presentation is over and be happy to take it up further with you. Thank you. And maybe just to say that. Just two pieces of guidance that seem particularly relevant to this question is that the December 1 2019 message from the House of Justice about social media. And also the message on climate change from November 27 29 2017 and those are all both posted on the by reference library. So friends were nearing the end of our session today so I wanted to thank all of the panelists for their great insights and for answering all of these tricky questions, and I'd also like to thank the audience all the participants that tuned in this afternoon or wherever you are to learn with us and to also think about what discourses, you may be contributing to in your neighborhood or your city. We have the stats that over 80, 80 people participated in this session, and it is possible to rewatch this session later as everything is recorded or to tell your friends about it. I hope that you enjoyed the session and that you continue to enjoy this excellent conference. Thanks.