 How long should they live before we do this humane slaughter on them? How much happiness should they have? God put these animals here, everything's made in God's image. It's okay to kill a happy dog? Yes. It's insane cruelty, violence and torture. Why should we not have that right? Well the same reason I should not have that right to do it to you. You've got me, you've done me in a loop there. What's your name bro? Joseph. Joseph? What's your name? Joseph. That's easy. My name's Joey, yeah. I've got a sign here. Did you read the sign? Oh yeah I did, yeah. I walked past and then came back and was like yeah it's fucking interesting. It's interesting, do you agree or disagree with the sign first? I disagree, but that's the thing, I'm open to conversation. I think that's the way you learn shit. I'm not too informed on like veganism and like animal rights and animal abuse. So like that's what comes it down, maybe you learn something from me, you learn something from me. Okay, I want to know when you first read it, like what went through your mind and what you disagree, like how you disagree with it? Like when you when when you read the word vegan now it is sort of comes to mind of like people manipulating vegans into some kind of like far left monster in a way and so like unfortunately that's the first thing that comes to mind like and it's not the way I believe but also I kind of walked past and I went hmm that's kind of it's kind of a bold statement to go just because you believe in this one thing means you support this other statement and it's kind of this is kind of um when you big something up and make someone seem worse because of the way they believe so saying someone supports uh liberal democrats for example means that they're racist or something like that so it seems like that but I'm my mom's vegetarian I was vegetarian for nine months it's different to vegan of course yeah yeah but yeah I was hoping to learn something from you okay cool and I'll get what you mean I'll get what you mean because there's a lot of anti-vegans out there and then they like to box you in and go you're a far left wing radical who's got a scream at me or something like that I know I've seen all that but veganism is like a philosophy that is um it's opposed to the exploitation and cruelty to animals yeah there's no I mean politics come into it because we want to change politics for the animals in that sense yeah and a lot of vegans will be consistent with with human injustices as well yeah you know so they might say they're intersectional yeah yeah exactly so they might be like well if I'm against animal abuse you know then I should be against other forms of injustice as well exactly so there are leaning there are if you look at a movement generally they might be leaning more progressively because they want things to change exactly right but uh if you're talking about veganism you're usually talking about animal rights non-human animal rights yeah right and um the reason I say support animal abuse because you might think oh you just mean like like well I believe that it's some type of like philosophical support or something I'm actually talking about you you you you've caused what happens to animals in slaughterhouses and farms to happen I'm funding it by going to McDonald's for example and you fund it inadvertently you go to the butcher you pay him for a steak he has to replace that steak animals get raised and have their head cut off for that steak so that's what I mean when I say support yeah and so it's it's less of like a ideological thing of you go out and one of your mentalities in a sense of like so racists will go out and go oh I do not like the certain kind of race whereas someone who supports animal rights you're not saying that that's their mentality you're saying that by their actions they're inadvertently supporting it right I would say usually most people are against like what you think of as animal cruelty yes all right so if I said are you against animal cruelty yeah when we go out here most people are against animal cruelty and you're one of them and when when you go into eat use these products that uh operate in a supply and demand system yeah you're supporting something that you're fundamentally against yourself so that's your moral system you're opposed you're contradicting so what would your what would your proposal be to to make people more less less contradicting of themselves what do you think animal cruelty is do you think eating meat is animal cruelty no and why not well because they're a humane way I'm not saying that every every so if you eat humanely sourced meat for example right and one of the few ways to get that is is from a butcher like from a good old school traditional butcher they're the ones that ironically it's the reason why my mum became vegetarian because she dated one but you think that they so so let's stop there because you say you can go into a local traditional butcher yeah in a small town yeah and you can guarantee those those animals more often than not have been traded you mainly no I'm not guaranteeing I'm just saying it's more likely they're going to somewhere like a fast food chain where it's mass produced and the chicken has been reformed and it's been tortured relentlessly I get what you're saying can I just show you something briefly I'm not going to take up too much time but I'm just going to show you what I just recently released just because this myth comes up a lot and you know you're not a fool for believing this no because they're very clever with how they propagate this humane myth to people so this is this is this is the slaughter house I visited and it was basically uh this is the owner she's a grandma all right so she's a grandma and this is a family run slaughter house which when you think of it sounds like it's like a nice they don't they don't um they don't supply supermarkets only local butchers do you support that kind of you could you believe in not eating meat at all but if someone were to do you believe that that's an okay thing to do to quickly kill them before if it had to be done that would be the way it would be done I don't believe it happens I believe there might be some places where I don't I do believe it's possible that with the bolt gun I believe I do believe it's possible um I don't believe that most of the time it happens I believe that you only know this because you've been told yeah you know you don't have you haven't you haven't seen hundreds of hours of slaughter houses no yeah so basically I don't think it happens in it for a practical reason but principally that they're two different sort of arguments aren't they so does it pan out in reality I don't think so because of the investigation is that we just recently done one here where you know her son was um not stunning animals correctly he's grabbing this is you can't do this grabbing no that's that's abuse yeah that's abuse and then bang yeah it's disturbing as and that's not the only thing that happened so that's anecdotal do you like because I'm more interested in it's not more interested in statistics yeah whether okay that is anecdotal yeah but it is horrifying and that's this is an example of yeah I'm telling you we we only left these this is a random slaughterhouse we left cameras in for two weeks we pulled out cows trying to rip their horns off trying to get get out the knockbox because what they do is they see dead body because they they understand what that means they see a cow shaped thing with blood all over it they're freaking out they don't want to die so when you see that like you don't think it's right to treat an animal like that hey let's just say it is an anecdote all right so why why do you care though if you think it's okay to kill them like if it's done in your your the way that you believe as a human why why would you care that they they are in fear because that's not the way that I would believe it should be done in yeah but wouldn't you say that that you you believe that the animal matters then if you believe they shouldn't be treated cruelly and in fear yeah but there's so I believe in the way it should be done right and and it's and it's so easy to turn a blind eye yeah it's so easy to turn a blind eye because when you grow up you you get all this stuff easy and you don't have to do it yeah right and and in a perfect society you do it yourself yeah like you'd be able to go out and do it yourself and actually be confronted with it and I believe that a lot more people would be vegan and vegetarian or just care more about it if they were actually able to and it's not something you think about on a regular basis but no I I agree with you there's it's two things I want to talk to you about one is more often than not you're you're not choosing where you're not going to this traditional local butcher yeah oh no because they're not accessible yeah okay so more often than not you're eating out like everyone else's and more statistically most of the animals in the in the UK do you think they're in on fields or do you think they're no where are they chance they're in tiny little cages they're in factory farms maybe not cages but they are in big factory farms big sheds filled with chickens 40 000 chickens in a shed pigs are indoors raised 90% of the factory farmed here the animals go to a big slaughterhouse to be killed in big production line and you have no idea what happens in that slaughterhouse because you never you never really see it exactly so so you're supporting now something that you're you're actually against in your own sort of philosophy here even if you believe in humane slaughter yeah so you agree with that so so basically by your own moral standard you're doing something that you're contradicting myself yeah yeah by your actions yeah so in order for you to be consistent with your own worldview you would have to go to a place where you'd see the animals be be knocked in the knockbox and they they didn't experience fear or distress and they would not they were just out yeah and they and also I assumed too you would you would you'd want them to be raised without cruelty either oh yeah more often than not you're going to get mutilations you're going to get tortured afterwards you're going to get family separated this is how the industry works they breed animals forcibly and they separate their families and they contain them and then they kill them they're they're they treat them like objects yeah let's just say there's a world exists where you can watch 24 seven what happens on the farm these animals are happy they're staying together with their families they they're basically like they're in a big sanctuary well how long should they live before you do this humane slaughter on them how much happiness should they have well because that's the thing how do you measure a chicken's happiness and this is where it comes into question of are they they are sentient beings obviously because they can they can think they can feel like you look at like a the way like a mother cow looks after his calf obviously that has emotions but how do you measure and and how do i measure yours how do you measure mine by our standards of of our like our our societal standards of happiness which oftentimes aren't very accurate so do you have a good job do you have the nice car do you have the nice family life which is very westernized it's very subjective isn't it it's very subjective yeah so how can we we're not dog to do little we can't communicate with the animals how do we measure what their levels of happiness are through there but through there but hey you can't you can't um you can't quantify it in a scientific way like you can measure water yeah but you can measure an animal's well-being yeah you know if an animal's suffering yeah that's there's a whole thing about fear pheromones being released into the meat and that's the way of like testing you can actually test the thermo you look like you're in pretty good well-being right now i mean a lot of people are depressed you wouldn't know but to me you seem like you're in a pretty even sort of well-being right now you don't seem to messed up just by your behavior so with an animal you can you can measure their behaviors and their behaviors when they're suffering are much different to when they they dance and they they play the pigs like to play with each other and you know they relax and you can see in their expressions so i'm talking about that yeah by their behavior so how much of that should they be able to experience before you it's entirely you know this is your i'm only going off your worldview here this is you're we're creating this situation that you think is humane and i want to just debunk the best possible situation in your eyes that's where i want want to take this because we already agree factory farming and being called to animals is wrong we agree that bad slaughtering is wrong and we agreed that you're you're probably supporting that most of the time yeah i want to take it out to the best possible i'm trying to change your philosophy yeah and i want to know what your philosophy is so we can attack it from its pinnacle point yeah the only way i can phrase this is going to seriously harm my not argument my my belief but who are we to determine how long they should be happy for before we kill them and that i feel might be your belief of who are we to determine you're you're you're essentially saying you're choosing when you can rob their existence yeah and and for what for a sandwich for our pleasure yeah for for like a flavor yeah your tongue and like a meal that you forget about do you remember what you had for breakfast three days ago exactly so you don't even care enough about the breakfast but you've taken someone's life from them someone i think is so you would refer to a chicken as someone yeah i believe there's someone in there having a subjective experience of reality so an experience has a subject in there inside of them that has wants and desires and they avoid things and they have their own personalities which can be tested yeah you can test some pigs are grumpy you don't want some pigs love cuddles some turkeys love cuddles some turkeys are you know you can abuse an animal they'll have trauma that that that animals are cautious around certain people some animals like males some like but like a like a dog your dog my dog's not good with men so stand back but women my dog loves children my dog's really good with just keep you you know yeah these are personality traits so there's there's an individual inside of a dog or a chicken or a bird having a subjective experience of reality just like you are not just your your reactions to the environment you're a you're a you're a subject someone inside of you yeah i do think for some reason my mind and maybe this is just the way we're conditioned but my mind goes to reject calling uh something that i would look at as dinner someone you've been objectified yeah and and i think that may be a way for us to to be okay with it and it's spot on and it's it's it's it's it's it feels like every argument i present is a way for me to justify but then what i might call to question is why so you argue what right do we have to to determine the length of their happiness to determine whether we put a bolt in their head or not to determine whether we kill them humanely or not humanely why should we not have that right well the same reason i should not have that right to do it to you that's where that's where it's that's where the question of why is an animal lesser than a human being comes into question and i and i would argue what do you mean lesser so we can we can go into the lesser what do you mean by lesser oh lesser lesser i'm not saying that's what i believe i'm i'm saying that's what gets called into question where it went lesser is in if i were to i've seen police around if i were to start beating you up right now i don't know if i'd fare very well against you but if i was to start beating you up right now i'd get arrested for good reason right and if i there are laws against beating up like there's animal abuse laws right but if i was to kill you as opposed to killing an animal the sentence would be completely different yeah well we the animals don't have rights in the world they some animals might have you might be in trouble for killing a dog oh no no no if you kick a pigeon in london it's it's if i kill the pig in my backyard i probably won't maybe maybe some slaughter guidelines maybe i'll get a slap on the wrist maybe i'll get a fine look don't kill the pig in your backyard yeah but you know you can pay for killing of pigs all you want you know but i get what you're saying like we determined so but like you know there's not all humans are equal yeah in every way so and i when i say that i'm not saying that we should treat them unequally yeah i'm saying that there's differences there's differences in our abilities yeah some people are born with handicaps like severe mental handicaps and we will look after them and look after them equally as we would with you yeah but there's differences you approach them with yeah we don't say well we can we can enslave these humans because they're not like they're lesser than us we say well let's protect them more they're more vulnerable actually you know when elderly get more vulnerable it's the more vulnerable the victim the greater the crime and when you look at a chicken how vulnerable is the chicken to you you can just stomp on them couldn't you incredibly and that's throughout history it's been it's been we need to take over this we need to take over this and if you're stronger you can right and it makes right kind of thing survival of the fittest exactly yeah and that's a shame but imagine that though imagine that world survival of the fittest there's a reason we live in that world no we don't not here in the uk oh no no no other places i could target a lot of individuals here and i could round them up with a gun and put them in a basement and that survival of that's like they i wouldn't have to work a day in my life they'd be cleaning my house and you know you know so we do have laws protecting human beings yes like if you commit some type of hate crime against someone because of whatever their proof whatever sort of um section of society they're in you'll go to prison you know but but animals we can essentially certain species of animals we can do we can do whatever we like to them but it's it's there's a great picture that i saw a while ago where it's like a chain of animals like the the theory of evolution man where you like gets bigger and similar to that where it's like a cat chicken dog a hierarchy yeah the hierarchy and then it's like oh these are the ones that we're okay to eat but then and then you look at places i come in the in the east where um there's the festival of dogs newland dog meet festival yeah yeah and and and where they eat dogs and that to us is like oh what do you think about that why the f*** are you well what what do you think of that what if they what okay we get the dogs you agree i'm i'm gonna say you will agree anyway that you shouldn't treat the dogs cruelly in that but well let's put the dog in the hypothetical situation you pose and they don't really know but they're a happy dog yeah coolest dog think of the coolest dog you know you've ever met yeah you don't have a name pardon what's the dog's name jonathan jonathan the dog the stupid name but jonathan it's not mine so we got jonathan yeah jonathan is about halfway through their life and they're just loving it cold chilling going through it from vis vis their loving life but then one day we lead him into a room it's a dark room they don't see the gun coming and we shoot him in the back of the head and our justification is i'm kind of like i like burgers so like they all chuck him in the burger do you think that that's justifiable yeah and i'm not saying that to just continually back up my point and it's not something that i i don't believe in but i'm still going to say it to back up my point i think especially the the dog meat festival rickage of ace is a very prominent animal rights activist yeah and he's been posting a lot about it recently and especially about the dog festival and i look at stuff like that and i go who are we to tell these people obviously like let's talk about it in human conditions and the hypothetical conditions i don't agree with the way they do it now because it's it's it's horrible the conditions they kept in i've seen the videos in a hypothetical scenario who are we to say we can't eat jonathan essentially no who you tell me i can't eat jonathan yeah and and why why are we dictating what happens to jonathan and jonathan doesn't come into it because not a human being and that's the thing that comes to my head so it's species yeah okay species ism is a phrase that i hear for a word that i hear thrown around a lot and it automatically you reach out and see it and you go off no get off with this discrimination like um what's happened within the human species too and it's just categorizing people into groups yeah it was it was it wasn't until recently that um indigenous people in australia were not classed as uh flora and fauna i know it was very you're a straight australian yeah what happened to our originals is sickening yeah it's disgusting they looked at them like animals yeah flora and fauna up until very recently which is which is disgusting yeah like justification it's lowering humans down to two animals all right imagine if we didn't have that category to put them in yeah and animals were actually respected yeah you could never lower i could never lower you to fauna you know what i mean because we would respect animals you know i'm saying so this speciesism thing is actually more violent than out has more violent outcomes and what you might just think because it the first the first like sort of canary in the coal mine kind of thing and first warning is like they start saying that their rats their their dogs their pigs yeah to this group of people and that's usually preceded by some awful tragedy yeah so i think that you're still you're still kind of in the camp of like how do we who we get to determine the outcome of an animal because we're a human being and i say that that's like human supremacy where we're saying we're saying um we are we are better we are more special and uh we get to dictate you know if as long as we treat them these are like kind of our own rules we're making yeah because i don't think we're we're caring about treating them cruelly because we care about the animal i don't think no we're it's more about how it reflects on us how we feel guilty for it i believe like you might feel bad knowing that an animal was tortured so you could eat them but you don't mind if they weren't tortured and lose their life yeah so we can eat them help us sleep at night yeah and and and that's because it keeps being brought back and like i said when i first sat down i'm like i don't know much about the situation i don't know much about the thing but i want to learn more and so i think from what i'm going to get from everything you've said so far and we'll say is that like if i need some food later i'm not saying that i'm not going to get meat but it will call into question and it will be in my head and and and i think that's one of the beautiful things about this kind of thing which is why i want a conversation i think conversations are good because it calls into question and maybe the next person you speak the exact same thing to them and it doesn't just call into question their own structures it makes them change their mind entirely and that's one more person but so so recently uh during the first lockdown i got very into uh liberalism uh libertarianism sorry libertarians um and and personal freedom and the ability to dictate what you do with your own self and to an extension that would come through as to i want to eat meat but when it comes to something like personal freedoms you're essentially taking away the personal freedom of the animal by killing them and eating them so it works both ways doesn't it so it works both ways you're trying to say because when it comes to what's this libertarianism philosophy it's like it's big on personal freedom yes but if i take away your personal freedom um i just want you to respect mine yeah and i respect yours yeah and and and so it's it's essentially uh one of the main belief systems in it and it's uh unfortunately it's been co-opted by a lot of nastier people but you do whatever the f*** you want i do whatever the f*** i want if it doesn't harm me and you don't harm me and i don't harm you do whatever you want and so it's an all-encompassing philosophy yeah okay and the animals are excluded from that one yeah because we have a similar philosophy i just include i just include the animals in there like you can do whatever you want in the bedroom and your personal life you can like music you can eat nothing but bloody fried i don't know chips you know i'm not gonna come up to you and go i'm the health police yeah it's your choice i mean if you're my friend and you're smoking cigarettes i'm gonna say dude are you come on man like i love you mate don't do that but like i'm like i'm gonna go to people smoking cigarettes and go hey you shouldn't have the freedom to give yourself but um when others are involved that's why people go our vegans are forcing their beliefs on me because they want me to be like but they're not they're just can't see they're proposing another viewpoint we're stopping we're defending the animals from being attacked by people yeah so it's way different it's a way different dynamic here i'm not saying oh you shouldn't have wore all black today man like what are you doing like you should wear like this blue shirt it's like no when you wear that black an animal is being executed against their will can you stop harming the animals that's what that's the difference yeah put yourself in the usoar i said put to i get people to try to put themselves in their mind in the animals position and what do you think would be a like if you're a if you're a chicken like what defense do you think you deserve what do you want what defense would you want um weapon of some kind against the farmer you would want you would want direct action sort of defense wouldn't you yeah stop yeah yeah i mean we know that eating animals is is illegal so we we can't continuously do that type of thing so the best the best sort of weapon we have to be able to be in a fully functioning society and you know is to try to change the consciousness of people and hopefully affect uh the culture you know so it's it's not like i'm saying oh you've got to choose between a human and a chicken right now here's a gun to your head of course you're going to i would choose the human yeah if it's you and the chickens here it would be very sad it would be a sad thing to do but i would choose you in a in that type of situation so you would you replaced so you place a higher um it depends who you are but you seem nice if you were hit love then then if you were hit love that i'm choosing the chicken yeah so it depends on the person but a chicken's you so a chicken's value is always the same in your opinion but the human's value is is different depending on the person they can i think most chickens you could agree that most chickens uh you know with another human yeah some humans are like uh you know yeah awful and you seem like you would change too you don't seem someone like someone who's just going to be like no i'm starting a chicken farm tomorrow and i'm going to kill hundreds of thousands of chickens and cause all of this suffering throughout my life then i might be leaning towards choosing the chicken who's going to cause less suffering over but like um so like i'm not asking people to do that people think that i'm just i'm asking them to choose a chicken over a person you don't care about people well no i'm just saying choose the chicken's life over a sandwich and choose a different sandwich that's how that's how easy it is it's not like you can go right there burger king you can get a vegan chicken burger or you can get the real chicken burger yeah you know and you like why not change just what you choose yeah and so we've spoken about my like hypothetical like putting a bolt in their head and like what what i would want but i'm actually quite interested to know what you like what your dream world and not just because we've mostly spoken about eating animals but also in regards to because i've seen recently the exposés on on on Gucci and Louis Vuitton with their snakeskin and how like they're just wearing animals foul foul yeah testing on animals ironically you know uh there's some horrible things that veganism is a philosophy that encompasses exploitation and cruelty to animals period you know there are areas of our life that you can't avoid humans or animals being harmed yeah practically like in a in a in a practical sense you can't exist in society without there being a level of harm because of civilization cultivating crops causes harm causes harm to humans and animals that are in those crops but in order to to to not cause any harm you'd have to not have civilization yeah we'll not have hospitals and so there's a there's a it's kind of like this threshold right of harm that in order to have all of this well-being in in society there's going to have to be a certain level of harm exactly when you do the massive holocaust of animals on top of it this massive huge like constant breeding and killing of animals on top of it i'd say that's i'm completely unjustified well we already caused this harm from having civilization justified harm i would call it why would we need to like do all this mass killing for a sandwich on top of it so you're saying that there is a way in your like well not in your fantasy but in in in actual life there is a line to which uh it's okay to do it because it benefits humanity and then anything above that is is too far i think that there's this threshold that if you didn't meet this threshold then the the amount of suffering would be so much worse you know what i'm saying so like if you're talking about we can't cause harm we can't have hospitals we can't have dentists we can't have civilization you know um uh crops we can't cultivate crops because there's going to be insects and animals huh but then all the people are going to die the world is going to descend into like you know if you took away civilization we'll live that in nature there'll be more much more suffering than we were talking about taking us back you know it's a medieval yeah so so there's this there's also this threshold where sometimes there's going to be some humans and animals caught up in you know but to to create this massive killing on top of it it's just it's extreme it's it's more than it's justifiable yeah and and so that's i like that because like like i said oh that's not good um like i said earlier like when when vegan comes to mind you think of like people who prefer animals to humans so it's it's it's nice to have it reaffirmed that that's not the case you like like you said you you pick the humor some people i prefer you because i've met you now two of the strangers over there yeah i prefer my brother over you i'm shooting you for my before my brother yeah you know like so i'm shooting you over my mum but that doesn't mean that you and my mum should have different rights yeah you know i'm saying yeah so it's it's it's again it's if i had a pick for example two pigs i had one pig at home i love this pig you know there's another pig i don't know i'm gonna say i'm so sorry but i love my pig you know i'm saying that doesn't mean these two pigs should have different rights that's not what i'm asking people to do like i'm just asking to like you know not stab animals in the throat for a sandwich or yeah like you know like a quick meal that goes away and everyone does it everyone participates and a lot of people have the same view that you have about it should be done in walkie mainly yeah we're not gonna most of the time it's it doesn't yeah and that's the lie we tell ourselves like i said to sleep at night yeah and and it's and it's what we say because we know that's not what's happening no like i i know for more not for a fact but it's like you just know that like you go into mcdonald's none of this has been done ethically or sourced and this is so another another part about libertarianism is is a distrust of the government yeah and any government and so i saw something recently where it's like you go into mcdonald's a meat meal right so burger chips fries and a drink right it's like three pound 45 a salad there is four pound 95 on its own accessibility and so and it's and that's purposely been done by the government and by big big food just because that's that's easier to sustain it's been lobbied by the by people to get the government to make it cheaper subsidized animal products are subsidized as well and it's and it's and it's foul that that's that's what's happening and so i think a lot of the times it's like not not for me right because i'm i'm blessed like by god enough to be able to go to somewhere if i so choose like a farmers market right and buy all locally sourced vegetables and shit right i'm blessed to have that but some people don't no no no and so i know i know that's not what you're suggesting is that those people just starve and no one's suggesting i know i don't see me but a lot of people have to be practically achieved like yeah like what people think is that veganism is this philosophy where you cause no harm whatsoever no matter how justified like no i believe even killing is justified in certain situations that's not my philosophy like you know killing you to save the rest of the world i'm killing you straight away okay like so killing you kill me to save the rest of the world i believe even though i'm going to die that that is justified because i'll just look at the you know so that's not what veganism is and it's not like you have to just eat this organic berry that grows on this in random tree in the it's it's got to be practically achieved by civilization and then you sort of weigh up this threshold thing you know i'm saying yeah it's that principle that philosophy that you try to that that's your core and you just don't be ridiculous about it you know what i mean exactly yeah because i know i know people who go to my church who who like they cut down they have one meat meal a week they started off uh like three meat meals a week because they realized they're eating it with every meal they cut it down to three then they cut it down to one and it's like you said really trying to figure out where that threshold is of where you can still maintain like the mentality that you want but also realize that you have an impact i wouldn't include animals within that threshold though okay so because it isn't a necessity so basically if i wanted to eat you so so imagine all the well-being that you're experiencing and are going to experience throughout your life you're going to experience some suffering but let's just say i'm like you know what my threshold is one piece of you each day each day for say three times a week i'm going to eat a piece of you so i'm going to go kill you and just to get this small amount of pleasure from it i wouldn't say that that meets the threshold for just trying to kill you and i'm saying with animals you know but um if you were to say uh we're going to we're going to eat fruits and vegetables and and rice and stuff from the supermarket um it's going to be wrapped in plastic there's going to be um animals that die in the crops somewhere along the line you're not responsible for all of those animals but yeah because you're only eating a certain amount of calories from that crop yeah but that that's what i'm talking about like civilization we got to get a car we're going to have to use some wheel in it you know but not i'm going to shoot you in the head to eat some of your body for a bit of taste pleasure i don't think that meets no so what what is something so animal animal testing obviously not with with a medium of a threshold unless it was something like so say this is a this is hyperbolic right but or hyperbole or whatever it's called but um like say the the the only way right to to to get this life saving cure was animal testing would it be better that millions of animals suffer through animal testing than getting the life cure because i know you've spoken about like the really it depends there's a threshold there's still a threshold for me like it's called threshold deontology i don't know that much about it but this is the one that that sits the best with me this is the type of moral system that sits best with me and um so is there a threshold where like you grab me you put me in a lab and you have to do the test on me against my will to stop this this world being tortured for infinity or something like this so there would have to be i do it there would be there would be this threshold that would be met i don't there um so for example cosmetic testing it's pointless yeah it's it's ridiculous yeah i think it's illegal in education yeah it's yeah to my knowledge yeah for example if you're if you go vegan right you go vegan and you're like oh well uh medication you know medication is a different sort of thing because medication it's it's they legally required to test on animals yeah so when it comes to supply and demand if you go buy a burger another animal's going to have their head cut off slaughtered for that burger when you buy say aspirin that that that aspirin has been tested on animals before so when you buy that aspirin you're not you're not encouraging incentivizing more testing i take daily medication and so like i didn't know that it was it was a climate and so so they would have tested on those animals before it was even released the human trial exactly and then and then that's it and now it doesn't need to be anymore of course and so and so that that in my mind so i don't think but i do still think that animal testing is outdated and doesn't work because you can't take a rat and apply that model to a human being because because medications and chemicals act differently inside of a rat than they do to people yeah practically i don't think animal testing works but principally if it if it really did even if it was a human i do think there's a threshold there's definitely a threshold but like yeah you know that's subjective and and that's the problem i think but i think a lot of threshold people have similar ones you you would be able to get everyone really in a range unless you're like an outlier because they don't say okay put yourself in the animal's position is it just put a dog in the animal's position we could see if they contradict themselves you know what i mean and most people are pretty rational when they would you'd be able to find a pretty good middle ground so it is subjective but your belief is that aside from the outliers which shouldn't be counted anyway because that's the whole point of outliers is that they the average person would believe in in a similar threshold so like we just went through your moral system and you know i think we got to you to a point where like we we got to that we got to jonathan actually and you still thought it was okay to kill jonathan yeah okay but but let me find where your where your barrier is like i want to find where you where you don't think it's okay would it be okay to kill um a human being no i mean what just like a random person that i see on the street yeah so they've had and i'm talking the justification is that they're happy they haven't been treated cruelly but your justification is the same case pleasure you get from eating animal products or using animal products no i don't i don't think and that's with jonathan as well you know that right yeah so with jonathan it is justified for the same level of pleasure so because my belief is it's difficult because i have a confliction right as a religious man i have a confliction of okay god put these animals here but also everything's made in god's image but so i believe that yes jonathan so my threshold would be the dog so basically so a human no for the pleasure you get from a burger it's okay to kill a happy dog yes okay but for the human there's something different and you believe that difference is i'm not saying that i would do it i'm just saying that think it's okay for someone for someone to do because who am i to say that it's not but a human i think a very rational why wouldn't you do it because you do it you you would do it if it was a cow yeah so there is a bit of inconsistency there so you wouldn't do it to the dog not jonathan because you have a personal attachment to jonathan just say a dog like jonathan you wouldn't do what happens to this hypothetical cow in the humane situation to a to a happy dog in the same situation yeah you wouldn't do it no i wouldn't but then again i probably also wouldn't kill a cow because i don't know if i've got that in me okay and here's the thing i'd like to know if i did could you pay for me to kill the dog the happy dog how much in charge no i would say about you buy a burger for five five quid or something well if i was not benefiting benefiting from it then i'd have no reason to you're benefiting because you're just basically i'm this i'm the store you come in you give me the money at the store how many months you buy for a burger there's a dog there happy dog five years they've been living happy dog get him in dark room bang shoot him in the head i cut him up make him into a burger before you give it to you and you eat it for that five minutes of taste pleasure would you be okay with doing that this is the happy dog scenario no cruelty you've you've got me you've got you've done me in a loop there it's the same thing yeah but with the cow you're you do this is what you do every single day except you don't because you're paying for for someone else to do it for you but you're also paying for all the cruelty that you're against because i'm been investigated for a while i've been in the movement for a while animal rights movement i know what happens in the industry and it's a it's a jungle man it's crazy what what they do yeah so you're paying for something way worse actually but even you're hypothetical you wouldn't do for the dog but the cow you pay me let's say let's change the dog now it's a cow now you pay me for the burger five minutes taste pleasure there's a cow there happy cow daisy it's called a called the cow daisy very stereotypical cow and i shoot the cow on the back of the head dark room cut them up cut their head off make your burger are you okay with that you know what my answer is going to be it's yes you're okay with that yeah that's interesting and even if you saw me do it yeah probably cut their head off blood coming out they're unconscious at this point though yeah they don't feel pain bang cut their head off and then yeah you're still okay yeah and and and you knew that was going to be my answer and so this i didn't actually know that but did you know you have a very you have a very big contradiction there and i know and that's the only thing there because a dog and a cow are very similar in their intelligence uh the way they learn yeah you know um so the only thing separating you there is speciesism it's discrimination because there's nothing morally different about those two animals so it's it's only your programming yeah you think that cows it's bad for a cow sorry bad for a dog then it's yeah and that's like i said earlier that's the way our society has been that's you these are you've been affected by society this i'm saying yeah so my my beliefs that have been a product of same here parents yeah exactly but you've managed to find a way out of the matrix yeah undo it yeah and it's and it's not something that i so like like i said i want to learn something and it's not something that like maybe i sat down with like less of an open mind because i i sat down with like the knowledge that i i don't want to stop eating me because it's it's nice like a nice a nice f***ing steak from heliastake house there i've seen it a long time bro i was a massive steak eater yeah 26 years you know and it's and it's and like i said you knew what i was going to say and i sounded pissed off but i wasn't i was more impressed at the way you got me to admit my own contradiction and i think that's uh the next person who sits down that's going to be the same like i like times out of 10 it's going to be the very same and i would have probably sat down with me 10 years ago or it would have been a similar conversation and that's all programming so how would you propose that i since your your one is to change my mind right yeah how would you like other than the conversation we've had what steps could i do i would ask you to be consistent and i'd ask you in order to be consistent then your actions should reflect your morals yeah if you don't and and also like not just that to be consistent about the animals too because if you wouldn't want it done to a dog you shouldn't want it done to a cow cow yeah so for every cow burger i eat should eat a dog one in my in my if we want to talk about mentality too like if you if you there are human beings with similar intellects to certain animals because of the way that they were born yeah and if you wouldn't agree with what we do to a cow to be done to that human being then you also have a contradiction and then there's only species separated there to human being you might think we're special because of god or something but um really we're all i'm trying to like trait equalize yeah these beings yeah because when because when because when you think about it like one of the justifications for eating meat is oh they're they're not uh of the right they're not they're not of the same level as humans but then when you put it into context of because they used to be a support work of people with learning disabilities yeah so it's why i know what it's like when someone has a less than less than developed brain for whatever yeah we look after them and so when you put it into the context i'm not saying that those people like animals no one get that twisted right no no you're not you're not lowering them down no but what we're saying is their intellect is the similar their experience could be very similar yeah because they don't have rational thought to the same way but you even you could even if it's hard to think of the if they exist or not you can create the hypothetical anyway like hypothetically if someone did have that same mentality as a cow would it be okay to kill them if they were given yeah and that's my that's that's what i'm saying is that is that that when you put it into that mindset and that context it's really hard to argue against yeah without sounding like a hypocrite yeah just going well i can i contradict myself every day and then that's the first step feeling like that it's cognitive dissonance it's where like your actions are disaligned your emotions and your actions are like how you feel about something how you what you believe is yeah not aligned with your actions if you couldn't kill the cow as well well that's another thing yeah why should i be allowed to eat it if i can pay someone else to do yeah work like you know if i can't kill you and i pay someone other hit man to do it like i'm still responsible but also i'm a bit gutless like if i want to kill you so much why don't i just go out and do it yeah you know so it's easy to it's easier to commit atrocities when you're you're detached it's easier for people in the office to push a button on the nuclear bomb or to send soldiers out to die in war or for you to push a button on the cow but just you know to go all these steps removed and to do this to a cow it's much easier that way and that's why there's this and that's why there's McDonald's in every corner that you go to because they're the middle man in a sense or the third man all these butchers you walk in there's all this all this advertising or humane traditional local family yeah i get the cameras in there and that's it's insane cruelty violence and torture so but um let me just give you this as a practice because i think we've we've sort of come to the conclusion now and as other people i don't want to take up this here is a little leaflet you can just scan it and um you should be able to download it that it's got a lot of some little places to go if you ever wanted to go into these places fast food there's plant-based options in there as well oh yeah i get when i go i prefer them a plant to any of the like other options so i only get my plant from my plant so maybe some nuggies but yeah but i'd also ask people to do it it's a challenge 22 it's a big challenge i listen mate good talk to you brother that was great thank you go bless you mate i appreciate it a lot mate take care