 Many thanks for being with us this morning. We're looking at a second conversation and this point we're looking at the issue of all thefts and vandalism pipeline vandalism That has affected, you know Output production, but however the surveillance outfit of ex-militant leader government Ekbermo Polo alias Tom Polo have discovered major tapping point in the trans Focados Ramos pipeline in Delta State through which international oil companies and security officials or bunkers and locals have colluded to bleed the country over the years Tom Polo discovered the breaches after the in our during national petroleum cooperation limited NNPCL Awarded him the pipeline surveillance contract while he took time to investigate to find out those Penetrating the act or perpetuating that the findings according to reports that it's a top secret information For the chief of defense staff That's the CDS and who is general lucky rubber the group managing director on Idran National Petroleum Cooperation limited NNPCL Laji Melio carry both of who flew in from Abuja at the time to Delta State to inspect several Valuations the NNPCL and security officials countered 16 breaches on the pipeline operated by Shell Petroleum Development Company the Yorkerie community and it's environs in Delta State the pipeline runs from Otumara and ends up for that cause For Cardo's terminal and all tests all companies and security officials have actually siphoned You know the products which has left the country bleeding the story is almost endless But let's have a guest join us this morning to share his thought all our body show me all and gas experts He joins us all the way from Abuja. Thank you so much show me for being part of the show. Yeah Good morning. Happy holidays Happy holiday to you. If you can hear me loud and cloud. I'd like to declare really I'd like to show your thoughts Okay. Thank you. I think you are very articulately spelled out the problem in terms of what is happening there, but what You may not have alluded to and what everybody knows is that these things are not totally me I mean, you don't need to be in the industry for somebody to let you know that there's all tests The issue has always been that Has anybody ever been held accountable for this thing? So we need to understand that in life Even with children when there are no consequences to wrongdoing people are encouraged doing it So the issue is not so much as the revelation of the test or the extent of the test or the amount of Criminality that goes on but the issue is that the people the system the coordination that ensured that Nigera should change and suffering as a result of these should there be consequences to it That is what we should be talking about So you believe you were involved and it will never look so as we were involved should have Consequences if the NMPC officials were involved the NMPC officials were involved should have consequences to these actions If there were people in other departments They're very involved. There should be some kind of consequences so that that can serve as a deterrent In future because if nothing happened, trust me in the next one or two years You have another set of hungry aggressive people who will do similar things or attempt to do similar things because they know that at the end of the day there will be no consequences all Developing nations we talk about they have developed There's no an order because there are consequences when you break law and order so for me In spite of all these things and all that yes, it is that yet. It should not be repeated But more importantly, there should be a consequence a proper investigation and consequences for those who have found to be wanting so As much as we say we should talk about the consequence But it's also important that we talk about how long this Evil and this practice has been going on without anyone noticing So it feels like we just woke up someday and we realized that You know our pipelines have been tapped now in 2016 the Nigerian extractive industry transparency initiative Alluted that Niger recorded this has crude oil loss From 2016. So why didn't we swing into action? Are we saying that we're not in the know? Oh, this is just another pretentious act, you know by the government of the day Okay, so when you say we you know, it's good to clarify. What does we mean? Hey, are you talking about security forces? Are you talking about gold? So if you're talking about government, are you talking about NNPC or the Minister of Petroleum or the Revolta or are you just talking about We as a stakeholder, I mean, so we're talking about stakeholders now because when we talk about we Well, everybody is a stakeholder, including you and I We are all stakeholders, but there's been a stakeholder that does not necessarily mean any position to act So that is why it is important to clarify that definition I mean that pronoun in this case means The important thing like I said, yes, this thing has been going on for some for a while That will all agree. How long we cannot know until a proper investigation is taking place However, I'm speaking as an engineer now and as somebody who is familiar with food flow There is no way they were properly used. There was an audit of that thing for them not to know In fact, there are too many things that would have allowed them to know Even normal maintenance and piggy of the Of the pipelines would have and would have showed that there were issues The the extent the pressure of the fluids when you were coming out would have shown that there were issues and they were looking There are a million and one ways in which they would have known so it is impossible That nobody would have known However, if they had known What were they really about it? Who are the people that need when they start knowing about the issues? You know, so those are things that an investigation can reveal They're not things that can be I'm asking whether that investigation should have been done if you have the uh, nitrogen extractive industrial transparency initiative from 2016 saying that You know at the time that we had lost we recorded the highest loss in terms of crude oil So, um, we we need to understand that we're in 2022 and we can't just wake up and begin to sound like We don't understand this report and this, uh, you know, uh, article or whatever Our investigation was made public at the time that there was superior strength There was something that was wrong that led to the loss of our crude oil And so one what we you were now saying Or you know the government because the government is also saying that we need to have some kind of Investigation to understand this has been made public. You have also said that we're in the know So exactly what is it that stopped us, you know from stopping whatever was going on from 2016 Okay, so so what has been made public now? Is that there's criminal activities going but before Certain decisions can be made in the certain other questions need to be need to be clarified In verifiable manner the keyword here is verifiable So things like how long this thing has taken place needs to be known the people that were involved from the beginning They also need to be known those things cannot come out from a dating investigation Because meeting is an NGO is an industry watchdog these issues that i'm raising they are criminal in nature So it will take a license and someone will start to Responsibility to do that proper investigation and that is why there's a need for a proper investigation It is not just for the sake of it. It is so that people can be persecuted So and it's so that that persecution of the people who are guilty can serve as a deterrent It's basically how law and order works So that is and the case was substituted for that We're grateful for the work that may be has done. They're starting them in things We're grateful for pointing directions to report. They can only do so much Because they are not called. They are not empowered by law to do those things So that's why in the absence of a proper investigation that is backed by law Either by the legislature either by the police or by any other law enforcement agency We can only be grouping in the dark pointing fingers That's the best that can happen. So there must be that investigation by law So what happens, you know with the investigation, especially when you have those who should be investigating, you know The entire situation being complicit In the investigation, what will be the outcome? Well, typically in cases like that, they will do a commission of inquiry We should be empowered by law. Usually you need to get a judge who would not have certain people So there should be a commission of inquiry and that commission of inquiry will be giving In terms of reference and in time frame That's basically how those things happen What we are facing is not totally strange in the world of conducts Where you have people even in developed countries that this is where the police force Are found to be corrupt and entrenched in criminal activities. We are willing to go about it So what we are saying is this that if we are if the Facts of the matter is pointing to systemic corruption Then there must be a commission of inquiry which can be headed by judge or entire judge Somebody independent of the system and then you get some other people who are knowledgeable About the industry into the system to be able to dissect the technical aspects of it And then we produce reports which will usually be submitted to the president Who is the person that will commission and based on that Then the police And all the people within the justice system come back to prosecute people who are held accountable That's how it is done So in all of this Some Nigerians think that you know The minister of petroleum resources and the minister should be held accountable and we know that President Muhammad Bari has occupied that office seven years splints counting. What are your thoughts? Well, to the extent that the ministry provides NMPC, they have where they'll be held accountable But so is NMPC. So is the Navy. So is everybody. So basically you are not going to summarize the Problems and don't be on Just tips of one person that will be skin-coating The issue is this a proper investigation We show if there was an accountant that all that figures to the extent that that accountant all that figures It should be held accountable if there was an engineer that Give false reports on the fleet that were to come out that they come out that engineer to be held accountable if there was a PR person who gave false information to the public to the extent that it broke the law It should be held accountable. So basically We cannot do a kind of spontaneity or stupid on that carpet in this case Everybody should remain to face the law to the extent To which they broke the law. It is not a blame This no longer we shouldn't be looking at casting blames. That's okay. The The minister is fully responsible. He should take the blame. No, it's not a blame It is about people who broke the law being held accountable by the law That is the way to go So so what becomes of Nigeria now and where you know You understand that we are very dependent on oil for earnings And with the crisis is going on in Ukraine and with the fact that we haven't been able to meet Quota and also on the other hand There's also, you know a plan to reduce an output or which has already been done. And so From the time that we probably would say we're producing 2 million per barrels plus We have been reduced to producing 1.8 or there about and however We haven't been able to leave up to, you know, that quota that's been allocated towards other country Producing below 900,000 with all of this. How do we survive? What's the way forward? I mean I covered a very big hole Which is what these things are that hole should be blocked I mean and that way in itself we show up. I mean if there is still in 500,000 barrels per day You can do the maths. 500,000 barrels per day is not a small amount of Cool oil anywhere in this world and you can do the maths. So if you have discovered that I mean that is one way in which we will show up the amount of I mean our production quota. So it was never really about militants. They were still in the creeks It was never really about the pipelines that were being blown It was just about systemic tests within the MMPC and that is what has come to the light So basically In the past we were grouping in the dark trying to uncover and try to know what the issues were behind our local production quota But whether they were from whatever issues those things have come to light now and I mean I believe that they will be plugged and everybody will be the better for it But but how can how can this you've talked about the holes being blocked? How do you block a hole if you don't identify the persons? However, we hear that, you know, it's top secret for the minister of defense or I mean the chief of defense staff and so It's it's not that we this names can not be published It's not that we don't know the people who are involved, but we can put it out because it's top secret So how do you go ahead to block all of this when you're not transparent, you know with the entire process? Let's see the discovery because it feels like we you know, we truly imagine one and we're here now Okay, if I I wasn't hearing clearly But if I got your question What you were trying to say is that how can we recover these if we are not transparent? So you're talking about the system. Am I correct? Yes, exactly so When you talk about systems like a transparent system and all that so we're talking about how things should function In a normal in a normal situation or how to get the situation into normalcy Which will be the results After these criminal investigations is over. So right now we are in a crisis So you are not yet going to be talking about normalcy where there's a crisis because there has been a discovery Of the fact that a significant chunk Of our resources is consistently being stolen. So what we need to do is like a patient Who maybe he gets constant headache and is dizzy and as a result he has had an accident When he has an accident The first thing you will be looking at is to stop areas without bleeding and all that Is not to be looking at the cure to dns So when you have recovered it from the emergency that you can now be looking at the causative factors What would have been causing this person to have been dizzy? So right now we have discovered that there's a bleeding of the resources as a result of systemic tests That bleeding means to be stopped So when it is stopped The system within nmpc to make it accountable so that the People can be so that they can be transferred and audited can now be put in place Because putting that system in place now Is in the mid term and long term in the short term It is the test that needs to stop. So this is just basically how the patient will call how systems work So that's the point there It's okay. Uh, thank you so much elaborate. They show me for being part of the show this morning We appreciate your thoughts And and the perspective you brought on the issue. Thank you Thank you very much. It's a pleasure All right, then have a happy holiday a lot, but they show me is an oil and gas expert in abuja And that's the size of our conversation On the breakfast. Thank you for being with us from seven o'clock up until this time If you missed that on any part of it, it will be great for you to follow us on facebook twitter And instagram and subscribe to a youtube channel. We're at plus tv africa and plus tv africa live star My name is messi abuja. Thank you for staying with us