 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tyler. What's going on, brother? How you doing? Good man. Gonna be here as always. You have fully replaced Tom at this point. It doesn't even exist in our minds. No, I mean, Tom will hopefully be back sometime. Worry not everybody. He's, as we said before, he's just dealing with some stuff, but he'll be back around. Also joining us this week for the first time, very excited, Jordan Duncan on the show. Jordan, would you like to introduce yourself? Who you are? What you do? Sure. Just a quick synopsis. As you said, Jordan Duncan is my name. I drove by Season of War as our YouTube channel. We do obviously a lot of AOS content, primarily battle reports. So playing lots of games and having lots of fun. But we do have a more competitive take on the game, I think in terms of battle reports out there. We are a group of pretty competitive players, but have fun and love it all. All around Habigieg. Perfect. And the channel will be linked below so you can find everything you need to go check out Season of War. Go do that. It's great content. So check, check, check, check, check. Okay. So I need a little bit of excessive Midwestern sincerity here at the top. Go for it. Why not? About Jordan's channel. I mean, it's one of the best that's out there. I can only imagine an extraordinary amount of work that has gone into creating what you've created, Jordan, with some friends out offshore around there. But it's really remarkable what you've put together. The terrain, the camera, you've even got your wife involved in doing narrative voiceovers and she's doing an amazing job. You guys play a wide array of battle reports, sort of semi-competitive, full-on competitive, wide array of armies, beautiful armies. It's just one of the best out there. I just wanted to commend you on because it has been an extraordinary amount of work. Yeah, well, thank you. I really appreciate that. It is a lot of work in editing and all that. I mean, obviously we love playing, so it makes it all worthwhile. But like both of you guys, actually, I'm a huge proponent of all aspects of the hobby. I love competitive gameplay. I love painting. I love building and converting. I love the lore side of it. I love making tables look nice. I think something we have in common is we all interact with the hobby in almost every way possible. So I'm just trying to do everything as best we can and have lots of fun doing it. Thank you. Yeah, it looks like we might have a camera issue. It'll catch up. Your camera, Jordan, was a little stuck, so you were kind of frozen. We could still hear you normally the whole time. But it's probably just your internet coming through with your camera. It'll catch up so often. We'll get you. Yeah, if anybody is interested, I know you have a little membership that folks can join on YouTube to support the channel. I hopped on board a number of months ago. If anyone is interested, I would highly recommend it. It's the best whatever, two bucks a month that I'm spending right now. It does throw a long way to help, obviously, as we grow with the community support. It's been awesome and working with our premium membership. So our premium members hugely give us a ton of feedback in terms of what they like, what they don't like, and help us improve. That's the number one place we go to talking to all of them about what we want to do next or what's coming up and all that. Yeah, 100%. All right, I'm done, Ben. No, that's fine. So yes, we're going to again skip our normal format this week because there is just too much to talk about. I want to really focus this episode in on the points. Couple notes. So one, we're going to be focusing on the points and their impacts to all the armies today. We're not going to discuss endless spells because those are going to need their own whole separate discussion to look at the new war scrolls because they are so very different. That will be next week. Don't worry. We're going to get into things like the battle plans, the new battle plans and new victory conditions and stuff like that next week as well. So tactics, strategies, battle plans and the endless spells will be next week. Before that, this week we're talking points, impacts, armies, who's screwed, who's not, who's on top, who's on the bottom, winners, losers, heartache, suffering, the thrill of victory. That's what we're talking about today. So at any rate, don't worry. We're going to get back to the normal format as soon as we can. That was already a four hour show last week and that was without all this news. We will eventually talk about the Warhammer Plus stuff. Don't worry. Yes, I saw the news that our beloved, beautiful, perfect app is somehow getting replaced, but we don't know anything else beyond that. So we'll have to see what that means. I'm not going to worry until I know more. So the answer is don't worry. We'll get there. We will talk about it. And if they get rid of War Scroll Builder, we riot. Okay. So that's what we all know. All right. Anyways, let's get into the points right away. Okay. So so much to discuss. My gosh. So let's start on the summary. Average increase in the game was around 8% but distributed very inequitously. Okay. So like averages can lie. This is a well-known thing in statistics. Right. Like if you took the amount of money I have and the amount of money Bill Gates has, and averaged the two, it would look very big. Right. But that would not be a correct representation of our two financial situations. So we know averages can sometimes lie. But nonetheless, we do have over here a little bit of sort of winners and losers. I've got various examples. The big increases came in primarily like four armies that really ate it pretty hard, which were disciples, daughters, heed knights, and seraphon. The smaller increases were sons, OBR, S2D, and the flesh-eater courts. No changes were the soul-black grave lords, which isn't surprising because they basically, no changes for our purpose. There was one minor change. I'm not going to talk about it in this particular discussion. It's not worth discussing five points, basically. Or something, you know, that minimal. And then the, so because their book was just printed, it was obviously 3.0 ready. We are not going to talk about Stormcast or the swamp bogglers today. Sure. They won't, why, why are we not talking about swamp bogglers? Because the points in this tome are a lie. Straight up. Much like the cake, neither of these two armies, these are not real points. These don't matter. This is irrelevant. Okay. What's relevant is what's coming in your army book in like some, a month or whenever it comes out, couple weeks after the launch, two to four weeks after the launch. We already know the points are going to be different because in the launch video for how to play AOS 3.0, they showed a little snippet of the stormcast points and they're different. Which, by the way, is fine. Quite, quite different, actually. Yeah. And like it's fine. Okay. I don't mind them being different because when they made this box set, it would have been so far in advance of them making the rest of the stuff and they would have had to go to the team and say, look, what's your best guess on what these things point at right now? Yeah. Right? And then three months later, after all the play testing or something, they would have actually finalized the book and got to the real points because the lead time on producing these boxes is huge. Huge. Okay. Like, I don't think people understand the logistics of them, but if you were to like, just start fresh and you had everything ready to go, it would probably still be 18 months. Yeah. Incidentally, it feels like you might be getting your buffed up stormcast that you've been looking for. I saw Liberators like 90 to 115 now. Excited, buddy. Excited. So. It's coming. I finished up my first test model for my army. We'll talk about that next week. But, oh, Rackast is coming. Excited. Oh, nice. Yeah. All right. So that's enough of my stuff. There's a little thing over on the side here on the side of the screen that shows like who was better or lower than the average. So everybody can look. So for example, like Sun's killing it at only a 0.32% increase, 7.63% better than the average. You can't, you got to love it. Okay. But let's talk high level. Jordan, I want to start with you. You're the guest. Okay. Yeah. Which thing overall like high level? I mean, you can talk maybe about an army or something. You play or not. I don't care. But overall you feel about how all the points came out. Oh gosh. That's so, so wide of a discussion point. I guess I would say I am optimistic about it kind of overall reducing potentially army size to a degree, especially with the smaller board. We played a game with the smaller board before the points changes and it's like a unit or two difference is actually a huge difference in terms of how much space you take up and all those things. Sure. So I'm optimistic. It's definitely like even just like looking at this building for me, like immediately it's like, I can't feel like I can write a comfortable list because I'm still in that mindset where I had 200 extra points. So it's, it's, I feel like for me, it's going to take some time to really adjust to be like, okay, I've got this list on the table. Now I can see, you know, get a better feel for it. Cause when writing them on paper right now, it just, it all feels bad. Gotcha. That's fair. It's, it's an adjustment, right? Yeah. You get less and so we all kind of have this sort of anchor pricing stuck in our head and about how much of everything we get and what our armies look like. And we now kind of have to accept that, oh, that's actually all different now. And in some armies, it might be very different depending on what you happen to be, especially based on your unit selection, right? Cause at every level, the averages can lie in different ways. Right. Tyler, what did you take? All right, good. Jordan, please continue. Oh, I was just to say, I guess it would be under big increase or maybe small to big somewhere in the medium, but like Loom Ness, for example, like my list went up 270 points. That's like an insane amount. So it's like you said, it's going to take some adjustment and then I'm, I'm optimistic again that it's going to be fine, but like my brain is just like going crazy right now. It's how, how am I going to make this work? But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On Loom Ness, they're a good example because a lot of folks, of course, we're taking the Arlon Legion, which I know Jordan, your battle reports, you were running that with Techless and Sentinels, Wardens, et cetera. You know, so of course we've got a number of factions that are just losing their battalion as a starting point. So Daughters of Cain is a good example, even though they went up average of 21%, Viperate Guard was 140 points. So you take that off and you're getting compensated through the various CP generation that we have access to, that's a point generation. Yeah. So I think it's a little inequitous on that front. Like some of them are, you're not going to feel it as much because of the, just it's easy for them to lose the battalion and still be, still be in pretty good shape. Yeah. It's, it's all over the, it feels like it's a little bit all over the place. I mean, which isn't too unexpected. Like I think the first thought was this was obviously an enormous amount of work trying to, you know, so COVID's going on, playtesters, GW, they're trying to have this major revamp of the system, which 3.0 is much bigger than 1.0, and then trying to go and change the point values of all these armies with a number of, you know, different variables that are, that are getting involved, including the general desire obviously to increase the points across the board for the most parts. So it, it definitely, it's very hit or miss. You know, it's going to take I think another six months. Hopefully we'll have better processes in place, something that an events you, Tom, you and I, we've been talking about, I've been talking about for a long time, we need better development. Hopefully that will keep improving and then in six months time we'll be in a much better shape than we are right now. But I mean, on the whole, I, I'd say like six out of 10. I got, it's not terrible, but it's not amazing. Okay. All right. So I brought up some other views here, just other ways to slice and dice this data. Some of these tables, by the way, thank you very much. This all comes from Theo Jansen. I will drop his Twitter down in the, down in the show notes because he's the one who I just blatantly stole these from. So thank you Theo for putting together stuff. He, he, and we should state for this, all of the point tables I'll be working off of were started by the amazing AOS shorts, Dan, and then filled out by this incredible community that we have. Like I was in there, people were working on it, asking questions, refining stuff, you know, doing comments. It was bonkers great work by the community. So A plus if you're anybody who, I was like, I didn't have, this kind of all started on Thursday and I left. I had no internet from Thursday through Saturday. Right. And so I just kind of would like, I'd intermittently have a little bit of internet where my messages would just like go and come in and then I'd lose it. And cause I was way out in the wilderness. And so I just see like, and then it would be silent for a little while, which was fun time. But at any rate, we've got some interesting views here. So the big long chart is your battle line percentage change. So it's only looking at the battle line. And then what did that change? So as opposed to the last chart, which was, here we'll go back, which is the whole army. Right. And again, some of that, this is one of the ways averages can be deceptive. Right. If a hero goes up 15 points on a hundred points, that's actually quite a big increase. Right. If a hundred point hero becomes 115, that's a 15 point increase on that hero. Right. Which sounds like a lot. It's higher than the average. We just said was eight. Sure. Right. But you probably only take that hero once in most armies. Right. Whereas your battle line, if you're going to take three units of the same thing and they went up 20 points. Right. Then that's actually a 60 point increase to what your list represents. Because it multiplies out. Like this isn't revolutionary stuff. We all understand what's going on here, right? Yeah. Okay. So at any rate, this chart examines just the battle line increase. And this chart is really fascinating because by the way, this isn't battle line if this is literally just battle line, pure battle line people. Hence why the suns went down and the fleshier courts went down because ultimately the things worked out that way. Because in suns, as we'll talk about now, everything's just battle line. But at any rate, here you see that like LRL, when you look at LRL's percentage, they're not actually way up at the top of the average percentage, though they had some sizable things as we'll talk about. But when you look at their battle line as a percentage change, of what happened with wardens, suddenly that percentage jumps way up, right? So at any rate. So I might say it should have been a little higher with those sentiments, but hey. Well, we'll get there. We're going to talk about all of them. The other view up here in the top right, the battalion nudists versus serial battalioners, that is exactly what you were describing, Tyler, right? So the battalion nudists are how many people, how many battalions did you tend to take before, right? Did you often have, did your armies usually have battalions? Okay. And so these four are ones that Theo thought, you know, people usually had some kind of battalion on. He's counting Gloomspite because he's counting the new battalions for Moz of Jorque and the Trogoth herd and stuff like that, right? Being very popular choices. Okay. Or sorry. It's saying that those are, that he's counting them as nudists because people weren't taking those, the standard Gloomspite army. Sorry, I have switched around. Only the specialized ones use that. That's what I was trying to say. I just said it backwards, right? So IDK, Seraphon, Skaven, Gloomspite, often didn't have battalions. Zinch, Flesh Eaters, Fire Slayers, Orc War Clans, all had battalions. I don't know about Flesh Eaters. I certainly, every, let me say this way, every Flesh Eaters or I mean, I've ever built, I've used a battalion or two, but that's because I'm a Smash Bad. But certainly Fire Slayers, Lords of Lodge, Orc War Clans, Iron Fist, Disciples of Zinch, Change Host. These are like three of the most famous battalions in the game. Right. Right. Okay. So and it's interesting to see how that compares because it's not distributed as you would hope. Right? It's not like, it's not like the, the serial battalion people are necessarily paying all that off. Mm-hmm. Right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then you've got the row label by type with the average increased. Mm-hmm. Oh, could I widen the box a little bit? Yes, I can move the box a little bit. There. Okay. That should be better. Hopefully that's all right for everybody. There we go. Yeah, it's showing all the numbers now. Sorry, everyone, if the numbers were kind of cut. I don't have anything else that runs this far to the edge. I just couldn't fit both of these in. Anyways, Behemoth lowest at 6%, then leaders at 7, mainly melee units 9%, mainly shooting units 10%. There we go. This one surprised me so much because I feel like it was kind of intuitive to the expectations that, you know, that a lot of people had going into it of like, you know, your monsters going up because of the extra value and your shooting going up because obviously of the power of shooting, especially with like unleash hell now. Yeah. See like how little difference there is like, like, and you know, mainly units going up 9% is wild to me. Yeah. Yeah. It certainly feels that way with, I'm not sure, you know, I'm trying to, you know, sometimes I struggle with this trying to get a sense of like, to what degree can we draw some useful conclusions or working conclusions from this right now. I mean, that does stand out. Certainly that's the 6% on Behemoth or monster. I mean, that absolutely, I would say stands out. So part of it, it's actually kind of obvious if you think about it. There's an easy explanation for this. Okay. We're, we immediately run to like grandiose game balance expectations. When actually, I think the explanation is much simpler. Okay. Monsters tend to be higher points. Okay. And we as a community and GW knows this, tend to look at points changes in their raw number, not in their percentage. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so when they move things, they tend to move things by 10 or 20 or 25 points. Right. So when you move wardens by 25 points, that's a big percentage change on wardens. Yeah. When you move a 400 point monster by 25 points, that might be impactful to that monsters, you know, play and what it does in the list. It's not that it's not, but that is a much lower percentage of its overall value. Right. So when you move to 25, you know, by raw sort of how much space they clawed away in your list, it's exactly the same. But when you start examining by percentage is different. Right. Right. I was just doing some quick math. Yeah. I think Dorothy went up about 12% 340 to 300. So if I did that right, which I may not have, but yeah, the trying to get a quick sense. Yeah. Cause some monsters, it did feel like they got maybe an appropriate increase, maybe a little bit too much, but relative to that baseline of 6%. But yeah, that's a great point, Vince. And also as we'll see a lot of the non-hero monsters ended up staying pretty flat and a couple of them moved down. Right. So they're also there pulling down that average. Right. When you've got a lot of zeros or negative twos or negative threes, they're like, you've got a lot of Saigors and Gorgons and, and Charybdis is just like holding on to Archeon. I'm like, don't worry, I'll pull your percentage down or, or Alario would be the better example right away. Well, and, and actually Alario's a good one too because she was repointed before the GHB. Right. So it wouldn't be reflected in this data. Yes. Yes. So these are just all slices and dices. Like the key to understand with this, I think, and I think with the three of us are all on the page here, is that like there's no one view that suddenly gives you like, you know, clear insight into this data center into the change. Right. Yeah. It's a bespoke set of changes that they worked collaboratively on across a large group of people over many months. It wasn't like they sat down and applied some algorithmic formula that we could reverse engineer. Sure. Yeah. And some of these do stand out like looking at Gloomspite and GITs. I mean, that one's higher, I would say, than it should be. I mean, just in general as kind of a general shot. And then looking at, oh, so we got Skaven. They're about right. Like a number that, you know, Lumina, they're pretty high. Cities is really low. Cities was a big winner, I would say. Daughters' disciples appropriately. They're pretty high. I mean, as you mentioned, these are not including some of the battle line if. Right. So there's that issue. But anyway, we don't spend 50 minutes on just this slide. But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. There's a lot. We're going to get into the individual armies. What we'll see is the devil is truly in the details here. Right. Yeah. Like there's no doubt about that. Because some armies like took a relatively heavy percentage change. And yet actually I think, nah, they're fine. Right. Maybe because they always did have a battalion and they still ended up coming in with their average army build lower than what it would be at. Right. So there's, there's just, again, we really have got to get into them deets. Them deets is where it's at. Okay. Yeah. Good stuff. Let's keep going. All right. So we're going to start and order the forces of order. Of course. Everybody's favorite order. Yeah. They get to jump the line and not go alphabetically. Yep. Exactly. Yep. Okay. As I mentioned, don't forget, we are not going to talk about storm cast. We're not going to talk about swamp bogglers. I don't have soul of light grave lords in here either because there was no effective change. Right. It's, it's what's printed in the book. We already talked about it before. I know those are cross passions. I'm just explaining. Yes. We will talk about the rest of or of work lands. Okay. Here's my one note. Controversial statement. Hot take gentlemen. You ready? Ready. Hopefully. Points did not go up on average. For order. Period. Okay. Before we get into the image armies, there should, the average should have been closer to like 15 to 20%. And let me tell you why I say that. Because that should have been the average, average. Again, we're going to lie with that average, because that would have allowed a space for no change to have been way more impactful in their overall position in the game. So my, my honest belief here is that nothing should have went down. Okay. But the, a lot of problem units, if they're not going to write new war scrolls, should have just stayed exactly the same. And if everything else had moved up so much more, right, then they would have suddenly actually been really efficiently pointed. Does that make sense? Sure. What we're getting right now is because the change, because they kind of were like, Oh, we're worried about hurting everybody's feelings. We don't want people to get mad at us. Right? Yeah. Then because of that, they, you ended up, the things that didn't move, you don't feel the Delta you should. Does that make sense? If everything in the game had went up that 15 to 20% and you had a monster or a winner stay at its current points, that would be a huge change relative. Sure. Yeah. The efficiency on that, the efficiency breakdown of how much of your army you're still getting there would be so much different. Right? But they held back. They were afraid to cause the pain. And so because of that, because they choked up on the swing, never choke up. Like unless you're going for a bunt, you don't do that. And we're not. We needed a home run here. Okay. So what do you think that average, like what would you throw out as an average percent increase? What should that have been? That, paying that number? 17%. 17. Wow. Very inequitously distributed though. Like non-hero monsters should have been close to zero. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Elite type units screwed by coherency should have been in like the three to five percent. Mm-hmm. Right? And then you step from there. Mm-hmm. Okay. Like we all know who's kicking teeth and taking names here. Come on. What are we doing? Right? Like, I'm not. Am I wrong? Yeah. Go ahead, Jordan. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say it feels like there's almost too many factors that were potentially being juggled, whether, you know, like even they're mentioning coherency. There's coherency. There's the hero chain, hero and monster changes and, and the points changes, the board size and obviously trying to balance all those things. Like, like the coherency was huge one, like those, you know, the three that upgrade to units of six got hammered so bad on big basis. Yep. What it's just not justified. Right. You know, is that because coherency and it wasn't reflected in the points, you know what I mean? There's just so many balls in the air that I think obviously again, I understand blue with situation and everything, but there were definitely some, you know, big losers, you know, from, from all this, that isn't necessarily because of the points, but because the other peripherals. Right. And the impact of those. So, yeah, I think they'll be, and the key here is everything basically should have went up again in the macro view. Right. So I see a lot of people when they're doing these takes like, oh, why didn't this thing go down? Homie, nothing should have went down. That's not what we're on about here. Okay. Wrong answer. Nothing almost should have went down if they did this right. There should be like two scrolls that went down. Okay. But they didn't. So because a few things went down in weird ways, suddenly like, suddenly it doesn't feel like it's distributed correctly. The people who are the worst offenders often don't feel like they got a hard enough hit. The people who are clearly innocent bystanders in this are 50 mil one inch reach three sixes. Yeah. Right. Or whatever. Again, now we don't have the FAQ yet. Maybe they'll all get two inch reach. Okay. Like if that happens, I'm back on board. You know, we're going to try up, right? We have a third part of this. I was hoping it was going to be out by now, but they didn't release it yet. I hear that they're waiting on translation. Apparently it's lost in translation. So maybe we can get Bill Murray on the phone and get that finished up. But, but you know, like that's the issue, right? We had these things. They don't feel as though they're distributed to our offenders. That's ultimately going to be, that's my headline. We should have like stepped on the gas harder, really shrunk armies and then use the places where we didn't increase to suddenly give the advantages where we needed to, to armies that were hurting. Right. Yeah. I really stuck on that point about the monsters, particularly hero monsters relative to 50 millimeter bases. You know, those men size three units that you can only go up to six. Yeah. I don't think we hammered that enough last week. Now that we're talking about events, that is a significant issue when it comes to points. You know, like you look at, I played a lot of Gorg Runners. It feels like you're running them in three now. I mean, they're, they're as long as that plus one damage is going to be maintained. You know, Gorg Runners are like the one exception. I would take six every time with Gorg Runners and not even care for a minute. You still want to, every time you're going to lose Gorg Runners. Yeah. And then with the second I lose five wounds, I'm back to old coherency. It's no issue, right? Yeah. Gorg Runners, I can still easily get four in no problem. They still punch way above their weight. Yeah. They have the two inch reach option. They have a two inch reach option. You can, there are ways, right? Yeah. The people who are like on 50 mils with a one inch reach only. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the people who, if they don't retcon those scrolls, but again, they could. They could. Yeah. I was looking at our listener. There's a fair number of them. Yeah. That it is certainly impactful. So anyway, yeah, I think that's a fair point about, but I mean, I guess what you're getting out of general, is that you're actually sort of set an initial baseline. If you look through the general sandbook 21, particularly at the battle tactics, boy, do they want you to run monsters with those, with those battle tactics. Yeah. There are so many ways that you're potentially getting an extra victory point. So total of three from a battle tactic set up to, and then there's other, you know, obviously many other things that are really incentivizing monsters, which makes sense with we're setting a go. Yeah. I mean, we'll, we'll see where we are in six months, but that's certainly like there's just so many variables right now that I would be a little surprised if, if generally are thinking right now, which says monsters, monsters, monsters isn't too far off six months from now. Yeah. And I almost feel like in the six month winter FAQ, they're going to have to like really go in and tinker with some stuff. So we'll see like that. It feels like that could end up being a big one. But again, we'll see. All right, gentlemen, let's get started. Okay. Let's begin with cities of Sigma are the most ridiculous thing to make this chart out of. I apologize everyone that this is so small. And this is only page one. Yeah. Okay. Because I could not in any way that kept the text even remotely legible. This is already way too small. Keep them all on an army. There are too many units in this army. Let me just say that. Oh yeah. Okay. Now, I do really, really wish that like whatever we've talked before about what should happen with cities. We'll see what happens when we get our new Don Bringer Crusades book. If that happens, cities to electric blue, Don Bringer Crusades happen. Yeah. My solemn wish. And I know I'm probably alone here, but hey, I have a city's army. So I'm going to go ahead and say I'm okay to say this. Maybe you don't feel that way is that they would just collapse these units down into into single units that could be represented by multiple models. They'll never do it. They'll never do it because it becomes very hard for them to tell them, tell people what to buy. But I wish they would. I wish there was just like, you know, the two-handed sword guys and, you know, that kind of thing. It's just like, Oh, the different racial shirts are together now. And it's fine. We're all happy. Anyways, Yeah, that would be cool. And then you can even intermix the models and it's truly a, you know, hodge podge like cities is meant to be. Yeah. 100%. So I'm going to cut. I'll dip back and forth between the two pages. But here out of the city's changes, the ones that jumped out to me. Okay. Our one, the, uh, our free guild general on Griffin going down 15 points, which is great, great hero monster there with a good speed and a relatively nice hitting power, him dropping like leader hero monsters are for real in this edition. I'm three games deep now at this point. And let me tell you they are for real. Yeah. That was one of the things we talked about last week. I felt like if you have a baseline save of three plus and you're a hero monster, you're golden. Yeah. In this edition potentially, particularly if that, that the three plus baseline save. I mean, four plus isn't, isn't too bad as well. But the point being that you can potentially stack, save to offset rent to potentially go down to two up. And then God forbid, if you've got a way to rural wants to save somehow. Oh yeah. And then yeah, anything that has, I feel like the defensive ability when you're a hero monster of roar, which is just as much defensive as anything else, because then you stop them from buffing their armor or getting plus one to hit you. Right. Yeah. Roar has been like very thorough list right now based on three games as well that I've played at 2k. It's maybe number one on the list in terms of impact or anything in general. Yeah. That turns off issue and receive commands like Jim and it's new Jim and it's. Yeah. But I was going to say at last point that the baseline of rent, I feel like maybe it's gone up from say negative one. You're really looking for negative two now. I feel like. Sure. With a lot of worse girls. And if you can get minus three rents, you're you're really, really didn't work. But yeah. Jordan, was there anything in cities? By the way, cities average gain overall was 3.35%. Quick note on the average gain item here on my charts. That will not be inclusive of endless spell changes. So because endless spells went all over the place and were completely rewritten obviously. So the average there is not inclusive of endless spells. Obviously city doesn't have any, but you know, it's relevant. Cities did lose an allegiance ability. We should note that. Right. I've noted here that finally the age of the wild writer has come as they went down 10 points. Yeah. There we go. I'm sure. I mean the wanderers came out great here. Like, yeah. Them eternal guard sisters of the thorn with a potential double overwatch didn't change in points. Sure. Yeah. Let's see how that goes with the fact that absolutely right now. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, I mean the, a lot of the shooting, like I don't know what dark shards did or who they made angry, but dark shards went up 15 points. I think in general, this is one of those armies where the shooting people all went up to some degree and there is a lot of shooting units. They all are in like the 10 to 15 point range. Yeah. Outriders, pistoliers, copters and bombers and iron drakes, you know, went up, stuff like that. I'm shocked that iron drakes only went up 10, but a lot of other things, but like dark shards went up 15, like that's... Right. They can get minus two rent, right? Yeah. Or potentially minus three rent, because you can stack the rune lord I believe. I was thinking that you could stack it, but anyway, I didn't get minus two rent. Yeah. I don't, you can only do the prayer once now. You can't, you just can't repeat the prayers. But yes, they can be at minus two rent very easily. Yeah. Rune lord can't repeat any of your prayers. Champ prayers, right. Can't repeat it. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was surprising. Absolutely. A friend of mine was talking about iron breakers. They're base three up save. Still pretty cheap. Yeah. 115. I mean, yeah. Get them on a two up save. Pretty, pretty good anvil there. That seems fairly efficient at two wounds each. They are two wounds each, right? Iron breakers. Yeah. They're one with each. Oh, they're one with each. Okay. Yeah. I mean, your Dwarven stuff has often been just fine. Like it, it can, it can hold its own. It's often been the backbone. Like, uh, like iron drakes getting a 10 point increase. Now obviously two things impacted cities here. Right. Before we get into that, well, I'm actually going to put a pause myself. Any other units you guys want to call out? I mean, there's nothing really that insane in cities. Most of it was pretty in the battle. Honestly. And the fact there's so many things going down. The only other one I wanted to touch on real quick was how did the anointed on Phoenix's go down? Did they go down? Oh my God. That's very surprising, especially, you know, the monster hero combo being so strong. And those were two of the, you know, feature premier units in cities already. Yep. So I think we're to see a few more of them. You're talking like your frost art Phoenix guy four up after save. Neg one to wound. Uh, you know, decent enough damage, good survivability. Right. It's like, I don't, I, this guy's a mystery to me as to why you went down. Uh, because I just like wound penalties are not that common. And putting somebody under neg one to wound when there's so many ways now to put somebody into neg one to hit. And that guy is just an incredible pinning unit and continues to be like, you know, the fact that he can now also hero action and monster action, the fact that, you know, once a game, he can, he can have his best day ever and sail on in there and just really tilt the numbers. Right. Right. Yeah. Similar with a special hook on, on battle mage, uh, with battle mage. Yeah. Didn't move at all to 80 still. That's, that's a great buy still. Hallow hearts, you know, cogs. They're going to be probably doing pretty well. Uh, let's see. I don't know if that saw a lot of play in 2.0. The dreadlord of black dragon, but. Yeah. I mean, he, he went down 10 points. So that's cool. Yeah. No, is the answer. S'more. S'moregan is apparently thinking about spamming dark writers. So anything that's S'moregan is, is looking to do. Definitely. Yeah. I don't know, man. I saw his night runner and got a runner list and I've run that list. He's got. And, um, I'm not sure about it, but hey, he's probably a better player than me. So we'll see. Yeah. Um, I had a bunch of notes here, but I don't know if then she want to go and add some notes. Yeah. Let's, let's get to some summary on cities. So it is like my summation of cities is they got, they basically skated. Okay. Um, they, and they are a big, big, like the biggest army in the game by just count of units, not counting loco because that's not real. Yeah. Um, but they are a big mixed arms force with plenty of shooting, different heavy armor options, cavalry, mobility, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's very hard for this army not to be part of the conversation. Sure. Right. Cities is much like Skaven as we'll see later. Cities just has a lot of different tools because they have so many freaking scrolls. Right. And several other powerful heroes went down. We mentioned both the phoenix and the general and Griffin, both of whom I think are fantastic. Mm hmm. Uh, the increases to most of the base troops were small. Right. And the biggest hit to the faction was there's two changes. I was going to talk about those two things that happen. One, they lost a, they lost a faction ability. I mean, I'm sure to get rewritten in the FAQ in some way. I don't know. But they had the ability to always, um, count like the way that they worked with realm. Oh, the, yeah, the realm spells. Yeah. The realm spells right there. Yeah, right. Yeah. They basically always got the enhanced effect. Right. Mm hmm. That's gone now because there are no realm effects on endless spells anymore. So they, they lost that. Yeah. And the other big change to the change to bridge, uh, which again, we're not deep diving into endless spells, but bridge the stupid endless spell that you could like sit down and place your entire army around and then teleport your entire stupid army across the table. Yeah. Okay. It was just that, that is the dumbest effect that we all tolerated. That should have been retconned five minutes after it got printed. Yeah. Like it just should have been. Okay. And now you can only take one unit with you. So great. Yeah. Great health of the game change. Yeah. I mean, just like, look, teleporting is already really powerful. And the fact that you could usually have that guy out of range, out of unbind range. So, you know, barring like salon or something. You could just be like, Boop. There's a bridge. Boop. My army is way over on the other side of the board. Boop. We're all shooting you. Blazing. Iron Drake. Just woo woo. Yeah. No. No. Iron Drake is still an amazing value at 160. That's, I mean, like, I do not know the universe where they thought 10 points is the appropriate increase on those guys. They're fantastic. Yeah. So. Yeah. So, a few other high level, one of our local guys play cities, Travis Boyson. So Travis said a few thoughts. Yeah. I mentioned this, this, this spell loss. General on Griffin. Yeah. Going down, especially in tip-a-side, I thought, with the fight first. That's a good shout. Yeah. We talked about the fact on handgunners, sisters of the watch in terms of leash held, double tapping. Hopefully that's not going to be a thing. You thought, you know, Amble Guard, Hard Caron. We're singing a little bit of that with the Chalice Spray. And, you know, maybe with some of these new fans that might, that's probably still going to be a thing. A visual X-spray taking away the save. You know, we talked a lot about how we might see a lot of 2 plus save in the game now. So I'm sure that's still going to be a very hot spell. Spell portal is still relevant. So check that through a spell portal. Well, you have a different endless spell to get your vitriol X-spray person around now as well. Because don't forget, launch and the soul seeker changed. And he just teleports wizards around now. He teleports them quite far. Oh, right. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, that's good. Hammer Hall also has a lot of CP generation. Let's see. He was mentioning dwarf wizards or Star Drake wizards in Hall of Heart. That might be fun. Yeah, with the artifact. Yeah, the arcane tone. Yeah. Look, I'm always excited. In any addition, in any addition, there is going to be a thing that everybody simply says. And also, okay. So in the last edition, it was, well, it's a seven inch charge, but it's five inches with cogs. Right. Every time. So always in our minds, in our happy path, perfect, idyllic minds, we always had cogs on the table. Right? Always. Every time. 100%. Okay. Now it's going to be Flaming Weapon and the Spell Book. That's it. It's like those two things. It's going to be like, oh, plus one damage with Flaming Weapon. Oh, I can blah, blah, blah with the arcane tone. Like that's not me bagging on you, Jordan. I'm just getting that out of the way now. I'm going to say it a million times because every time I see it, right? It's always like, I'm just going to be a wizard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can. That's the thing now. It's going to be popular. Oh, yeah. That even the five up our ward artifact is like, you're going to see that at every other army. It's back. Yeah. We all got a word again. I'm excited. In the monster hero edition, I think it's a great time to suddenly add a five up in volume to people who are five up wards. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Jordan, anything else on cities? No, like you said, it's like you could point out so many units that didn't change, but that's the whole army. So in the context of within cities, not super impactful, but it's really compared to everything else, you know, the changes, like you say, where they benefit. Did everything else increase enough? Who knows? But no, I think, I think we pretty much did everything. I was curious about like war hydras. Which were horrible in 2.0 and Corridus. I don't check that. I mean, the war scrolls of those things in forever. But are those a little more turned on now that they're monsters? They could have been if we would have pushed the rest of the points up like I described. That's a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. If we hadn't choked up on the swing. Okay. If we had actually brought the points and they came up by an average of like 17 or 18 percent and they still sat at where they did. Right. And they didn't change again. The average in any individual, right? Right. Like the average amount of money that the people have in the United States, does it really matter if you're broke at the moment? Right. That's the difference. Right. Like then it probably would have been enough to make them interesting. As it is, there's too many good hero monsters. Why would I? Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. You're going to, you're going to fill their slots with the frost arts and general. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's too many good options or even not monster, still great heroes like you're, you know, obviously the Huracanum's value went down slightly because the plus one to hit now can't stack anymore. But also did it because plus one to hit is still really, really good. It saves you command points. Exactly. And now I can just blow my command point all the time in combat for plus one to save and have both which feels good. Yeah. Feels good. Yeah. Orange whip. Orange whip. Orange whip. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to get my Nash con list together. It's going to take, like, and I'm deciding between cities and giants. I have my city's display board all made. I never got to take the city's display board I made to a tournament. I really want to take it. So I tried to rebuild. You see that thing Jordan? The thing was ridiculous. You ever see that? I did. Yeah. Yeah. My aircraft carrier. I'm probably going to bring that. Giants are so tempting though for reasons. We'll talk about later. Anyways. So I rebuilt my city's list, right? To see how much can I do what I wanted to do? It's Tempest Islist. And you know what the answer was? Everything. Nothing changed. It was like, this is fine. That was great. You know, I think, I don't know, maybe I, maybe I got rid of one gyrocopter or something like that. Like in the whole, the whole thing. So I was like, yeah, okay, fine. I had muddy gyrocopters. So, oh no. Yeah. All right. Yep. They're good cities. Y'all. Okay. Daughters of Cain. Why did this slide? Why is this like this? Why are you like this? Sorry, everybody. I don't know why that was like so tiny or offscreen. Okay. Daughters of Cain. Okay. Uh, they took a big hit. Big moves. But they are coming from a very under-costed place. What were we at? 21% average? Okay. Yeah. 20.51 if you're not rounding. Okay. So, what was the average? Again, not counting the endless spells. Okay. So, they basically, I'm still not sure they got the points increased they need. I'm just going to throw it out there. Unpopular opinion. They came up to probably what they should have in 2.0. And they, I don't think they got near where they needed to be in 3.0. Now, that doesn't mean I think every unit should have moved. I think some, they probably got to the right place. Like sisters and witch elves are probably fine. Stop. You're good. Like we didn't need to go any higher on those. Okay. Yeah. But there are things like the hag queen on cauldron, still an incredible unit. Even up 35 points wasn't enough. That thing used to be 2.70 before it dropped. Yeah. Okay. That was one, that was one we had a difference of opinion on when we, the day after or whatever, we went through the book and came up with our point values. And I was looking back and yeah, you were, you were higher on that one than I, I was, I think I was 2.60. You were like 2.80, 2.90. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just too cheap for what it does. It's a very effective thing. Right? And I mean, look, the reason a lot of these numbers feel so big. I mean, and obviously Morgwaith is hilarious. Like, you know, she's, she is tied for the highest points increase in the game, but she is, but that's kind of a lie because she's actually multiple models and whatever, whatever. And I don't care. I'm not going to talk about Morgwaith. She never should have been 80. That was stupid from the beginning. Right. Obviously. Right. When I look at the Hag Queen, she should, like the Hag Queen on Caldron should have went back to at minimum what it was before they got their ridiculous decrease. Okay. To stay in parity with all the other increases in the game. Solar Queen's probably fine. She's probably in the right place. Like 300 is probably fine. 300. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Right. You know, like, blood stalkers went up a lot. Good. Probably fine. They needed to. They're up. They are a pox on the game. I think, I think daughters is a great example with that of them targeting the right units with the heavier points changes. Now again, like you say, some could be heavier, even rathy potentially with how, how did she is especially with the new stuff. But I think, you know, the blood soccer change and actually also impacted just by the coherency. I mean, you can't run units of 20 anymore. So right. The double tapping is less effective. I think that's a good example of, you know, another tempering of, you know, the crazy wildest things that we all hated. Sure. And yeah, you know, there's been systematic changes of like that. I see Oliver Dempsey. I sense your daughter's a game player. Everybody, one of the things that's going to come up is everybody wants your own army. Any points increases are always never, it's fine. It should have never been anymore. And it should probably be less when it's something you still want, when it's something you love, right? And that's not, by the way, Oliver, I'm not bagging on you. Like that's just our natural inclination. When we know it, when we love it, when we're that close to it, it's hard to like, you know, suddenly rip it away and push it way up. Right. So I get it. Can we talk about the fact that Marathi is a ridiculous rock bottom pricing deal at 660? Like that is insane to me. It is insane to me that she's 660 when we've got a Lario running around a 745. You're about a hundred points off on that. Okay. So you think, what are you actually, do you think it should be 760? She should be over 700. I don't know. Okay. Okay. What do you think, Jordan? I would agree at least 700. I mean, the only issue she had before is sometimes there is inconsistency with her output. Sure. And that's, that's largely dawn with plus one hit. You know, right? I mean, they already did re-roll ones a lot of the time. So she's going to be, you know, twos and twos re-roll and ones on both at times. So she's, but they went up huge value, I think, and not reflected enough in the points. Hmm. So a lot of thoughts. Obviously, I played a lot of daughters over the last year. And you, yeah, you're still going to start your list. If you're going to competitive daughters, you're still starting your list with 15 snake bows now and Marathi. Sure. So that hasn't changed. I quickly wrote, you know, okay, what is it? If I'm trying to go 50, what is a daughter's list? Well, and some kind of thing that enables them to battle line. So you can do that. But yes, like the, one of the, probably your right, your basic blood rec Medusa. But yeah, sure. Yeah. Medusa or Melisai, who I was undervaluing, I think originally that commandability is quite nice. In terms of what it opens up with the ability to do 2d6 run and or charge, you know, shoot with the snake bows charged with the melee, just that, that threat range is incredible on that. But yeah, so quickly writing a list just, I mean, just give people a sense like, okay, so Marathi, Melisai, or is it the same point cause Medusa? It's five points off. So let's go. Melisai iron scale. Okay. And then we've got a hat queen for say catechism. Sure. And we've got, let's see. Marathi had Melisai iron scale. That's about it. This is what I had on heroes. Yeah. Four heroes. Marathi counting us two. And then 15 snake bows, 10 blood sisters, unit of 10. They've got two inch reach. So that works. Sure. I think it's still really, really good unit. Minus one rend, they do mortal wounds. You can get a minus two rend, mine raises, et cetera. Really, really good unit. Good, good point cost still. 10 wood shells to fill out your battle line. 25 millimeter. So you can screen them out decently. You know, 25 right by each other. Pretty good footprints for screen. Unit of shadow stalkers. So unit of nine, you got a little teleport, not as good screening anymore, but still a decent teleport screen because they're, they're 28.5 millimeter basis, I think. So you can't, you can't do what you'd like with them, but, but still pretty good. And then 90 points for life takers, five life takers. So that's a hundred, well, hundred, quote unquote, 101 wounds. Obviously that's not what it is, but sure. And so how does that feel to you guys? So you got five life takers, nine unit of shadow stalkers, 10 blood sisters, 15 snake bows, 10 witch elves, Marathi, mellicide iron scale. Really to fit it in, you have to take the mellicide because it is exactly, I think on the nose. And then the hag with catechism. Feels like a pretty solid army. Feels like an army I wish I could build. I don't think that feels, I mean, I don't think that necessarily, like that feels strong. I think that's the top tier army. It doesn't feel too out of balance to me. I agree that Marathi should be a little more. Yeah, let me, I mean, the ultimate secret here is it doesn't actually matter that much. Points aren't usually what break armies, what breaks balance. Like we over invest in what we think points can do in this game. And that's actually not what makes things win most of the time. Okay. Like certain units. Yes. Points have determined their viability or not, right? Are they too efficient? But usually things went through, through synergy and allegiance abilities that are sort of broken. And like what's turning that into a powerhouse isn't really the points. Yeah, you could point them in a way that made them like truly insane or completely unplayable. Of course that's true. Sure. Right. But like when you look at what makes things really broken, it's the ability to use your pieces in ways that they just shouldn't otherwise perform where you're breaking the rules in like a horrendous way. So for example, bloodstalkers shooting twice around. I mean, that's right. That's applying that mortal wound pressure twice around. Right. Right there. Because yeah, I mean right now, if you're going to tournament this weekend, you're going to see Daughters of Cain, you know, 80 player tournament. You're going to see Daughters of Cain. You're going to see 50 sync blows, Marathi. You need ideally a way to turn off Marathi's ability to use commands. So like you need geminids or I haven't gone through and looked at what are all of our options right now. But yeah, I mean that's, I think that's going to be huge in a number of instances and starting with Daughters of Cain to reduce what they can do. If you've got a way to do it. Yeah, I don't Jordan. Do you have any guys kind of get a baseline and what you guys think in terms of like, well, I'm going to jump to our impact page. And as you can see here, Marathi. So at any rate, Jordan hit me. What do you, what do you got? I think like Tyler said, it's like the point changes. Like when you invest so heavily in that hammer of 15 bows, it does impact the rest of your army with all the, across the board changes. Sure, everything, you know, little things should have gone up, you know, a hero here or there could have gone up another 10 or 20. But really we are, this army is it being impacted from losing two units, basically one to two units with their lists. Like, I mean, just those 15 steak bows is 90 points difference. So that's, that's a unit there and Marathi's, you know, 60 could have been a hundred. But, but that's my opinion Jordan, you're manual, you're losing your screens. Cause I think often you would see Daughters of Cain list, you need to build in multiple screens. Yeah. Cause you got to, you got to keep those blessers to save. You got to keep those snake bows safe. And yeah, so you'd have, you'd have multiple chap screens for that. Exactly. So it, the, the points changes, don't necessarily change their output that, but they make them take bigger risks for overinvesting in that. So like I said, not having screens, not having necessarily enough bodies on objectives or the combat bodies to push other units off of objectives. Yeah. So, so I think that's the good part of this is seeing, you know, the 30 points, obviously again, targeting an important shooting unit. When you overvest in something like that, I think that this is a good, again, a good example of them targeting the right units. Yeah. Again, so it's like you're, you're risking something now to commit to that. And I think that's a good point for the game to be where you can't have it all and be safe. Yeah. The 30 points increase is fully justified. I'm listening both. Yeah. Yeah. And so people ask, I have here on my notes, Marathi. Oh, Donors can impacts. My subheading is they're fine. I think they have. Despite that increase, it's coming from a horrendously undercosted place. So they were already subsidized basically. They had, they had the GW subsidy fueling their, their power. So all we did is remove that subsidy to a point. So Marathi is still the second best hero in the entire game at 660 and a steal. That's, I, I stand behind that multiple people ask who is the first best hero. And Hey, whoa, already called it. Cause obviously it's the lower seeker or as he said, the score seeker like unquestionably the undoubted king of the ring. That title is going to be real hard to strip out of his control. He is point four point the best hero in the game. We'll talk about when we get to LRL because he's even better now barring some last minute change. Yeah. Please GW. Don't fix this before it's too late. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. All right. Anybody doesn't know that they've right now it does not have the unique tag. So you can take multiple Lord seeker's just everybody's reference. Yeah. They're coming soon. Yeah. And speaking to Oliver who mentioned the prayer limitation. I do think the prayer limitation remains actually the biggest fundamental challenge and impact to this to this army. Right. It just like it happened with the book and I think it continues to remain like now it's officially sort of in the system in 3.0. I think it remains the biggest challenge. Yep. I also think canary lifetakers at like 90 points or whatever there because they basically didn't go up or they went five points. Something I don't remember. Pretty low are still 10 points. Yeah. Incredible. They are great. Great screens again. So good. Yeah. Screens, objective grabbers and murder machines if buffed appropriately. Like I'm turn off on the shell. Potentially. Yep. Send the man. Yeah. You before you get in the unit you need to like get in there. Right. They just jump on over. Yeah. Get on in there. Yeah. And then just float away from me. What's up? Bye. You know, like they're just they're so good. They're so good. I just like. Yeah. So good. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Yeah. The avatar are really high on the avatar. I played him a little bit in Hagnar and obviously I mean as we all know, not as good outside of Hagnar because of the prayer limitation. You don't really have a good way to turn it on and do everything else you need with prayers outside of Hagnar. You know, the mark that you got to be under, it's a four plus. Best number of wounds in the game right now. Yeah. Four plus base saves. That's really good. You know, various ways you get a cover easily. It's a very small base hit. It's got that minus two rend. You got ways you can prove it's, you know, as usual, we're going to mention the commands all the time. Plus one hit plus one. Plus one save. Yeah. You gotta think about everything and what they look like with that stuff. But yeah, I love that. I think it only went up five points. I believe. Yeah. It's, it's really, yeah. When a five points, I think that's really going to value. Yeah. And, you know, command points are so impactful to this game. Overall, like you're always thirsty for them. Like we're all thirsty, thirsty boys now for, for command points. And the fact that there is a generic prayer you can take that just gives you an extra command point on a five up and you can sit around and make it a four up. And if the avatars, you know, near you or a three up, if you're on mystic terrain with the avatar, like, I mean it's just like a given that's optimism bias certainly. But nonetheless, it's a command point, you know, every, every time you're playing like it's just more. And there's, and certainly that plus one is doing a lot of other things too. Right. Turning on your prayers. Yeah. Absolutely. Heart of fury took a big jump down 25 points off 80 to 55. I can't remember what that is. The invocation number is on that one to get it off. I'd have to check that out. I'm just thinking like in terms of how easy it would be to remove, I know you've got to roll for to stay on the board, but that's, it seems a little more attractive now. I didn't like it at 80 points. It's just too random. That's going to go away. But sure. I'm a little more shouldn't know. All right. Next up. Oh my gosh. All my, all my things got real funky here and I don't know why. That's fine. That's fine. We'll fix it. We'll fix it. All right. Fire slayers. One of the most hit factions in the new edition. That is my argument. Okay. Now I say that with the understanding that this army had an average gain of half a percent. Yep. Almost no change. But that is a lie. Because part of that number is being pulled down by Fajul Grimnir and the chosen axis with their like 50 point drop. Right. That's doing a lot of work. Okay. The key here is Hearth Guard berserkers only went up a tiny amount, but they got hit by now you can only have up to, you got to have a Rune Father and even then you can only take them to 15. Right. A lot of things in this army are on 32 mil bases. Your basic Volkites have a one inch reach. They can't stack their saves anymore. Like I don't even care about any of these points. Like Volkites going up 20. The Rune Father and Magma Drawth. These Magma Drawth people going up 25. You know, whatever, whatever. Right. The Grimnirath berserker going up 20 and then the Doomseeker going down five is like the funniest thing to me because they just re-put out those new scrolls and then immediately shot their points apart. I'm jumping straight to the fire slayer things here, which might my subheading for this is just ouch. Because fire slayers had almost, they came out almost even on points if you look at the average, but that's a lie. They're way higher when you look at actually building your units out of Hearthgard and Volkites and things like that. They lost their key battalion, which was a crutch for the whole army. Right. Hearthgard and the cap to save bonus greatly impairs the unit because now they're just, they used to just like gain plus a million to saves. Right. Yep. They are bad in the new coherency roles. Okay. Yeah. And that should say they had, I love when I miss these guys. At any rate, my only answer is I hope we like shooting fire slayers. Get out those shooters. Yeah, or Hearthgard. Yeah, they're definitely because they get the extra damage against monsters. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Jordan, what's your take on fire slayers? I think, again, they just got gimped by the core stuff, but what do you think? Exactly. The peripherals, the points, they're fine. They don't care, right? It's small enough changes that it's not hugely impactful. But yeah, this is a great example like, like you're saying of all those peripheral things really punishing these guys. And again, that battalion, like we, you saw that in every fire slayers list. That was where you started. So that's obviously, I think this is one of those armies where to see drop off a ton from addition to addition in terms of the representation at events. And it was already very, very, very low. Yeah. Yeah. It's getting helped a little bit more like 2.0, which obviously we didn't get to play much at tournaments, especially in the States. We had the highest average number of objectives. Now we've gone down a fair amount. Right. Like you look at the GHB, yeah, we're back to a lot at fours, sort of four generally. And so, I mean, that could help them a little bit. Hearthgard, they both, I was looking at both of their broad axes and pull axes. Those are, they are both two inch reach. Yeah, they are. So that's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was confused. It's the little fights that are really suffering from the one inch, because they have the little axes. Yeah. Now, so I know always strike first in the Italian, which one was the Hermdar? Double activation came from the Lord's of Lodge, right? And Hermdar is the ASF. I think that's right. Yeah. Okay. All right. So losing double activation. Yeah, that's definitely a big deal. It's still only strike first. Not too bad. Well, not to mention even ASF is less impactful now, honestly, because of the way they actually stacked and changed the combat sequencing in a smart way. Yeah. Because it used to be that like if they jumped you, you could be like, no, I can't use my buffs. I'm just dead. Right. But now people can respond by using their buffs. Right. Right. They can, you know, it's like Earth Guard are going to roar at them. So unless there's a Magma Draw then they're roaring at them or something, right? They can still, they still have a chance to throw on their plus one save or put on any other command abilities or tilt shields or, you know, do whatever they need to do that said at the start of the combat phase you can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do we think that Magma Draws have been turned on enough? I mean, I'm looking at their war scroll. It's mostly minus one rend like, you know, the Rune Father. He's got three attacks, three and threes. Three damage on it, but it's only minus one rend. And again, I worry particularly with hero monsters, mostly operating around minus one rend that may not get the job done. You know, they've got ways that they're not to, I remember they're not too bad against like MSU, you know, because they've got various ways to put out mortal wounds. You know, they're not great at killing big units, but maybe a little bit with some MSU. I think Magma Draws are where a lot of people will go. Maybe. And like, I think, was it Lofnir is the, is the, is that the Magma Draws focus? Sounds right. Let's say it is. I don't know. You know, if these guys show up in a combined book, then the world changes. Sure. If we end up with Dwarven Warclans, then, you know, the world suddenly changes, right? So it's all about Grungy. What's Grungy doing? He's back. What's he going to do? Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah, they definitely took a big hit. It seems like. I know Tom was not too keen. No, I mean, honestly, they've always struggled like they were always, and they've always been this weird combination of very hard. It's always been this weird combination of a very hard army to win five games with. And. And a really unfun army to play against. Right? They weren't ruling the tournament scene. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's not, I'm not saying they never took places. They were there. They showed up in Top 10s, right? I was checking out Lothnir commandability torn a magma in the shooting phase. Pick an enemy within 12 of Lothnir Priest. And to the end of that phase, I want to hit moon rolls for attacks made by magma pikes. That target that enemy unit. So that's pretty interesting. But yeah, not seeing a whole lot else here. Yeah, I mean, it's also, we'll see where it goes. Maybe, maybe magmos and shooters. Right? Maybe, maybe the new thing is, is, is magma shooters. That's the new fire slayers. And it could work. You got, you got decent cheapish monster heroes. Cheapish. They are relatively tough. Like they're, they're not horrible. Don't get me wrong. And they do kick back damage pretty good with like their little blood spur Mortal Wounds nonsense. Yeah, definitely. And you've, you've got that combined with the shooters who do extra damage to monsters. We could see. We could see. That's why my last, my final point was shooting fire slayers. Could be. Yeah. I don't, I wouldn't ever like rule these guys out yet. Like they do have, still have some great tools, right? Like they're tiny, they're two wounds, a lot of stuff. Yeah. They have awesome Mortal Wound output. Right. In, in a edition where Mortal Wound output just went up in value. Oh yeah. And like, like you said, Tyler with, with objectives, they're being less of them on average. Yeah. That's to their advantage as is the smaller table sizes. So, well, they did have some things that affect the, you know, their army. There are still some parts that like, you know, we, they might end up Yeah. Yeah. And the magma draws didn't go up too much, which is understandable. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, relative to the baseline now, they don't look too bad. 25 room father, 275 to 40 room son. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be, I'm excited to see. Yeah. It'd be nice to see them on the table and some people trying out some different things because God knows we don't need any more Hearthgard in our lives. Yeah. We'll see where it goes. Heo combined book. Okay. I'm just, I guess I just space these hoping the thing was going to be bigger than it was. Sorry everybody. Good thing we don't have any deep Ken players here. We probably skip this faction. I mean, is there anything to talk about with deep Ken other than the following two things? One of the strong, my answer was one of the strongest factions basically skates. I think they're going to be just fine. They've survived everything. More Starguard up 25 points at 195. They're still a good deal. You know, I mean, like whatever, the LLV and going up 40, which was very like earned because that thing is a freaking monster now. Oh my gosh. It was crazy good. Yeah. It was the same points and had the same output of Sips eels, but almost more consistent plus all the other buffs plus a monster that only breathed half damage. Yeah. It's great. It was hilarious watching some of your battle reports. We had run that turtle and it would just destroy the world. Like, and, you know, giving you the two of Ignore rend on the Eastland, making you basically invulnerable except the mortal wounds in your first turn. And yeah, the thing was just a crazy good piece. Like, yeah. And the shooting, it's got eight shots at rend one. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, my honest answer is IDK has been running on a 1.0 book for the entirety of 2.0 and being fine. Like it's been a part of the conversation, a gatekeeper, competitive force. It got boosted up recently in a big way through the the broken realm series. And I think that overall they're, they're fine. Like, it's fine. Alopecs is still one of the best abilities in the game. Hitting people with an Unleashed Hell Alopec shot to to stop them from piling in if they just land a charge. Like if they just get into you and then you like, you know their role because they finished their charge when you activate Unleashed Hell. And if you're like, oh how many times have you charged where you're really relying on the piling to actually bring yourself into combat for the most part with your unit? Oh yeah. Sure. It happens all the time, right? Right. And the fact that they can now just be like, and net you on the way in and just be like, well I guess one of your dudes is going to fight and have fun and then I'll pile into you and do damage. That sounds like a good time. And then IDK impacts not much, barring war scroll changes, you know, if something else changes, that's fine. I have underlined Vulturnus got cheaper. This is that's somehow true. I think it's just because of the commandability probably where they can't stop it anymore. I understand the that he can't do the thing he should have never been able to do in the first place anymore. He still has a very powerful piece. Yeah. So I assumed it's chill dark and slip mount traits will still be able to be given to the heroes. So my only push back against Volteranos is I totally agree I like the change of you can't stack command abilities. I think that's again health of the game as a DeepKin player I think that's a good thing. The caveat though is is DeepKin's command abilities again they can only be used one turn out of five. Sure. So so that's a hugely worse than every other plus one attack between him and the King obviously his does three units which is better but I'd rather one plus one attack to one unit every turn. A hundred percent. Yeah. So that's yeah. Yeah. Right now I know Volteranos as per the reading right now he cannot get mount traits anymore because the current wording is like no unique characters can basically take anything and there's a lot of discussion going on about what the heck that even means and like do they get spell lures and blah blah blah blah blah. I assume it's going to be ruled that as per usual they couldn't take the enhancements they couldn't take before like you can't give them artifacts and command traits and stuff like that and they will re-instantiate their ability to take mount traits and spell lures. I'm assuming that's the case if he loses his void shield darkness okay. So Jordan you've obviously played IK a lot over the years you've done really well with them. What are your kind of overall thoughts and then what do you think a competitive list looks like now. So a couple things obviously I think as Vince said the whole book is wide open with broken realms. So Vince you on the right you mentioned or kind of give an example of a good deep can list of Volteranos turtle and one or both there's just like the meme thing I found so but half these are just fun art and half of them are fun memes this is a fun presentation to build because I just went through looking for army memes and I found this meme and I was like well this is what's going on this page okay go ahead I'm sorry. So I think though this book went from with broken realms went from the worst internal parody to potentially the best internal parody. There's like one or two units that you don't really consider low tan and soul or the Narmardy Reavers but like I literally Vince I saw this I did I did trigger when people call my army eels but looking at this I'm like I can build a very like top tier competitive I did that deep can list without any of these four units like no volt and the Volte turtle or either guard you can build a like so it's obviously a great strength of faction but yeah just an example of like they're they're still good and they are way more diverse than they were before. Yeah since broken realms I mean this is a bit of a joke obviously the memes are fun but yes I agree like when you look at now what Alepexes can do as already mentioned right I think they're you know they're so strong I think when you look at even maybe the whatever the avatars whatever they are mr. floating wave guy both of them I think you know could have some play now like there's that the turtle is obviously fantastic like there's stuff here probably your things that aren't as much in the conversation are the Narmardy thralls the foot melee guys and like low tan or something I'm not sure Reavers don't become an interesting option in the new edition let me just say that true trip shotting on an Unleash L seems like actually a pretty interesting possibility so yeah cool do you think that double again what would be your sense of if you're trying to go 50 this weekend what are we looking at like double turtle is that very high is that very high up there now no I think there's there's two builds to be honest there's and similar to what there was in 2.0 there's you know the you'll spam build or whatever you want to call it but there's also I mean you can literally fit deep in in one drop now and you if you're taking faulty you're not worried about that second enhancement anyways so that's very very dangerous but you I think the turtle actually while it you know with 3.0 it did go up in value it also went down because that plus one save you don't necessarily need it and it doesn't stack anymore so I don't think we'll see the turtle with the defensive eels as much anymore because the defense of yours can already get cover for free one or two turns they can land in cover they can also do plus one save when they really need it just from the command ability that they're a command unit so they don't need the turtle anymore if you're running defensive eels but seeing that they're having the turtle with offensive eels now purely offensive eels like now now they're all plus one save so they don't have three up and they do the all-out defense to ignore one rent yeah so it basically puts the turtle puts offensive eels nearly on the same level as defensive eels from a defensive standpoint interesting so yeah lots obviously the exciting thing about the new edition right so many things opened up and change yeah yeah as as always still seems like they're gonna be quite competitive I absolutely think they will be there they're still they still are and probably you know basically always will be part of the conversation and there's even you know rumors that they're gonna get a new book at some point here pretty soon I think that's probably right you know if you think about kind of what's going on there just given how long they've been running on the same book right yeah I should point out that this is an army with priests right yes there is a priest in this army which means that you can use curse okay and curse is the thing that when you curse a unit every six to hit that unit becomes a mortal wound yeah and reverse plus curse equals a crap ton of damage if they're trip-shotting hmm I used curse over the weekend in one of my games because I played a scaven army I cursed a laryl and clan rats exploded her normal clan rats and they just went okay now you die and she just blew up wow so you know I'm just saying curse is a pretty good prayer she exploded okay deep sorry the deep can priest is actually really interesting because deep can priests use 2d6 so how does that affect their ability to cast those prayers I assume we'll know in the FAQ but they are a priest so they can gain a prayer Laura and there you go we'll see oh and other thing they also got cities is now I don't know there's anything you'd actually take but that did happen you take cities here's now so that's mm-hmm which is just a lot like somebody's gonna figure out some ridiculous thing from cities to pull it here because cities has a thousand more scrolls so sure there you go all right Coradron overlords KO my summation here is shooting got more expensive so they got more expensive hmm their average gain was 7.65 they almost hit the exact average okay of the of the of the overall game I guess is what I would say where that was mainly felt was in things like the Andron rigors which went up 20 points the gun hauler which went up 25 you feel that now I personally again this is another army that had a sort of inexplicable point drop happened a little while back that they probably didn't fully need yeah and most of what we've done here is back out some of those changes right yeah I want to go back and look I didn't have didn't get the time to do it go back and look at the prior point values you can try to do it here on the fly let's see so what is the so forget yeah forget went back to exactly what it was 250 so did the iron because it was 490 before I collect like 510 in the battle tone oh but yeah okay let's see chemist yep exactly navigator five points off arco nine ten points off 90 instead of 100 now in GSB 21 so yeah it looks like a lot of these just exactly went back to the prior GHB or sorry that the KO 19 point values yep I mean it basically just reset them to where they were for the most part you know and fine like it's an all shooting army like okay let's let's get into the impacts for KO because we need to get right into it right yeah I think the core changes impact them more than any points this is another one of those armies right just I don't I honestly don't think the points are what the conversation is here I think the points for them are basically irrelevant yes they had some moves yes a couple of them might be on the on the margin you know impactful but to me smaller boards coherency for rigors and wardens the loss of the original triumphs and some of the GHB strats and tactics will work against them okay yep they don't have a lot of monsters by that I mean they don't have monsters they have big boats right those aren't monsters uh they so they don't have ways to take advantage of a lot of those things right yes they have some models that now count as two instead of one because they have more than you know five wounds or more but they're still weak on the objective game that's always been their challenge right yep and the triumph change even though they got like six new triumphs I think in the broken realms I really don't think we can discount how impactful that triumph change was now yep look plus one to wound is a good triumph don't get me wrong and I'm sure that every KO unit's going to love a flat plus one to wound or whatever because that's most time what they're probably going to take okay for their their eighth or gold right but losing their ability to re-roll saves off of a triumph because let's be honest that's what they were using to stick around and to survive yeah it was I playing them a lot it was the second most frustrating thing first being the warp lightning vortex warp warp in a bottle uh it was it was a re-roll saves yeah they they could be so tanky right thunders in particular and yep the fact that most of boats aren't heroes like they're just they're not so you know uh you can't uh they can't by most I mean the boats aren't heroes um the fact that they can't then bonus themselves like you got to have some hero near that boat going yes you have plus one to save now right instead of just the boat being able to do it to itself yeah true now on the other hand not everything is against them only shell redeploy and their ability to actually have lots of re-roll ones could be a benefit re-roll ones kind of just suddenly went away as a resource in the core rules so the fact that they can now spark plus one to hit and then also re-roll ones in lots of places means that they could often be on like twos re-rolling ones in a lot of cases that would not be an uncommon situation to happen if they can then pop a triumph as well and so be on like twos re-rolling ones twos you know like they could have some some 420 blaze it rounds yeah okay but they're going to be way more fragile right yep yeah 100 so their buffs and and they're those things they can use will be more consistent but if people catch them which is theoretically easier on a smaller board it's going to be a worse time for them and I think especially with it's to be determined how their abilities interact with like moving and retreating because they trigger off normal moves and now the definition of retreating yeah one of those armies that how they clarify that is really going to have huge impact but fly high if you can't do it when you're in combat because it's not a normal you know you can't do a normal move in combat stuff like that if it falls on one side it could be big you know one way or the other right also even for I know there's that battalion in the GHB for what behemoths to make a normal move pregame normal move that technically traders the high fly where they can relocate anywhere on the board right so those I think that'll be a really interesting thing to watch and see how it gets adjusted because actually we're not there yet but even sylvanas teleporting between woods they can't do it in combat anymore either that appears to be true yep barring the FAQ yep a lot of things changed blood knight's got a big benefit and everybody else went wait what's that we'll say hold on yeah yeah okay so I reached out to of course tom to get his thoughts and just run through for some of them yeah I figure one of us had to do some more you know there's you said the coast he might he might have some opinions uh let's see so he he thought thunder is we're going to be a little kneecap now at only max size of 10 you know you should be able to do that 20 uh now they're kept at 10 he said there's a skyport that you could take no I think it takes into 15 if memory serves okay yeah uh generally he thought that you know they're going to be a lot more MSU which is not too keen on uh let's see you know he made the point about yeah none of the ships are monsters re-roll saves is an issue he was pretty down on KO I mean I've heard other like I was listening a little bit of the aether cast podcast a bunch of the KO players yeah they did a two and a half hour review of KO and they didn't seem to be as as down as tom is appear to be I mean shooting and mobility are two real strong things right they have both of them a lot so you know they're probably still in the conversation right that's that's that's going to be there you know so like there are definitely hits this army took no doubt I will be interested to see where it lands yes tidings tidings mentioned that you can't ate their gold on Edwin Ragers or Warden's anymore because now their max size is nine if they have the balloon boy general yes which is relevant you have to have 10 people to get your gold we're not the KO aren't like Lumineth where they just all get gold for no reason they have to earn it here so yep okay cool anything else on KO I think we're I think we're good all right here we go there's the there we are Lumineth realm lords my subheader here is big points changes could be enough to bring this complex nonsense into balance which may be a controversial statement for multiple reasons I don't care come at me come at me tactless people okay by the way if you're happy about Lumineth changes hit the like button don't forget to hit like as we're doing this we really appreciate it if you're not happy about Lumineth changes also hit like YouTube will know the difference trust me at any rate so thank you everybody I'm excited to see everybody in the audience great chat I like a lot of this feedback I'm seeing in the comments today all right so let's talk about the big changes here boy oh boy we already mentioned a few of them wardens up 25 that's a big hit allerith spirit of the mountain up 35 okay the light of a thurian up 30 uh these are these are relatively big moves right I did nothing wrong he's been on the shelf the entire time I'm just telling you I don't look man I don't disagree or agree I'm just saying techless up 80 how he went from 660 to 740 but Marathi still down there at 660 is mysterious to me Severeth up 45 whoo uh Avalonore up 55 to 415 he went way up I mean they had moves yeah uh gotta get up gotta move yes uh cue the the same hotel all right so uh what's our thoughts Jordan I want to start with you what's your thoughts on Lumineth oh gosh I think I first off the biggest one is wardens um but just because that's again battle line and and it's not like your other battle line if traders off taking warden so you have to take at least these two units and they're also your your you know one of your best combat pieces you know output pieces there is there's a huge staple in the army right it's like so this is this is like the army that like I've been having the most difficult time building lists now not saying that's a negative thing again they had a lot of you know strong abilities and everything but like man it flipped it on its head and I feel like maybe some of the points were missed in terms of the changes like you know El Therian um as Tyler said I think honestly I would have loved I would have happily seen um the reverse between wardens and sentinels where sentinels grow up 25 and wardens grow up 10 I think that was what you know most people were expecting yeah that was by the way completely agreed what the wrong units went up the wrong amounts right like sentinels should have been up 25 warden should have been up 10 switch those two numbers and like somehow sensible now yeah so it's like yeah so but like again mortal woman's being so strong here shooting being so strong here in the game it's like we already were asking for sentinels to grow up and cost and so yeah that one this doesn't make sense to me but um yeah so you know what the only thing I would say to that is because wardens though are your you know mandatory you have to take two units for the most part unless you do one of the other sub factions um it does you know you know by ripple effect affect how many sentinels you're fitting in lists yeah but I think they could have addressed it more straightforwardly and not you know just hit the target unit not everything else because if you're not abusing sentinels then you're just getting punished yeah do what Jordan do you think we're like as a baseline are we looking at one unit of 30 sentinels and that's it we're a lot of lists are we looking at like two by 20 for board flexibility yeah I think anywhere from the 20 to 40 range is is going to be the most common 20 with a lamp and light is still very effective at taking out a threat or you know crippling something yeah um there's a lot of talk obviously you know with with the unleash hell but sentinels well well it is mortal wounds all they care about is the sixes they don't have those re-rolls and they do depend on the re-rolls so I don't I don't see the big 30 unit necessarily being the you know the most impactful or the the best decision you know I would take a 20 and a 10 just to be able to spread out and sit on two objectives personally this is just early opinions on everything but I think yeah so 20 to 40 sentinels are still staple and unfortunately we're to see less wardens on the table which I don't think is you know the change we wanted yeah do you think they were the best unit in the book unit not not hero just unit wardens in 2.0 uh so you we've talked about it before yeah that's that's a lot of that's a lot of question but yeah so um I think wardens before were super strong and I don't think people necessarily gave them the credit do I think they justified these points changes in the way they went went not necessarily because it's a lot to bring them to bear right yeah but when you look at the base numbers wardens have twice the output of sentinels yeah they just have a much harder time bringing that to bear again you know projection of powers um uh vince's coin turn that is an example like they have much tougher time bringing their output to bear of course warden or sentinels is just point and click don't even need line of sight um so wardens are so strong don't hit me wrong um but I think now the trade-off of you know I was actually again like I said my list went up 270 points I was over investing wardens uh to try and get that value out of them especially in a sub faction like alumnia where you can cover some of those weaknesses of movement right what were you running uh 30 and 10 or 20 and 20 30 20 pretty 20 okay yeah I remember you're running a lot yeah okay and yeah so I think there's again that was like jumping through hoops to make that work and be efficient where sentinels were already all all no efficient and you didn't yeah so yeah I don't need to take you hit the wrong unit uh uh any more times but yeah so yeah a lot of thoughts uh let's see uh just to name off some units so the ballista didn't deserve I don't think it deserved the 25 point increase I can't believe that went up 25 points yeah okay that one was yeah borderline at best I think in the opinion of you know general consensus opinion I I liked it at 100 you know a little slot in I thought it was maybe a little underrated it was what you took if you happen to have exactly a hundred points left and you're like well everything else of this army doesn't fit so sure exactly because it was really easy to get all the conditions to where you're at uh you're getting your 30 inch range at three shots threes and twos or twos and threes minus two rendy three damage so you know pretty good it was very easy to get all that and uh yeah but now that's it's not really much of competition for the most part relative to the sentinels so that sucks uh the the alerith obviously went up quite a bit I mean they were the ones that were the least competitive I would say like you would see maybe teclas uh in an in an emetrica but never really did all that well uh benjamin sabah did well I saw a tts tournament with that but yeah very rare pretty difficult to do really well with very low model count uh hero monsters I mean they're gonna be good spirit of the mountain avalanor uh absolutely good with all these benefits I don't know I mean he has he is he is a beastly fellow when he can give himself uh you know plus one to hit right like and and and potentially also have kicked on his happiest day right like you know in that round he's gonna go in and do the dirty business because he could sometimes whiff a little bit with his big hammer yeah he was in the derpy zone at base three threes yep but when he moves down into you know twos and twos that's a very different amount of math like and you know his hammer does hit like a hammer it's it's for realsies yeah yeah I'm going against monsters potentially roar to turn off their stacking of saves that could help with that minus from rent at still though I I'm still a little worried about I don't know we gotta see I'm just a little worried in general in the game about minus one rent particularly on hero monsters uh so as as a baseline but yeah the hurricanes so what do you guys think about them like obviously we saw still amazing they were ridiculous at 130 they're still fine at 155 win chargers are win chargers I don't know if you watch the tsn game that got played with uh all win chargers but basically the person never got touched they were just they would just move around the board you'd be like oh whoo shoot you dudes whoo I'm back over here it was just like yeah it was all over the place like they were just un-catchable by the enemy army and and that's not every matchup right but that's enough it's not it's not a it's not a small number of matchups where you can just be like okay so the way we're gonna fight this game is I will shoot you and you will never melee me yeah yeah yeah I saw that uh we talked I know Joe's been Joe cry has been doing really well with her con in general and I've heard a lot of complaining about severth going up 45 points I mean I've played against him a couple times he was a bit of a nightmare at least with melee armies should have done a damn thing about him uh but he's not a monster so that is a little bit of a downside with him in terms of the new ghp 21 and you know that's a decent price tag you're paying for him now he's more mostly chip damage oriented you know you can flood his attacks those three ups it's not sure yeah so of course we bury the lead a little bit on the lore seeker yeah that's we talked a little bit about that I mean the fact if and if it's going to be true that you're going to be able to take multiple lore seekers that seemingly seems a little bent yeah let's let's just get into it here we go all right yeah so here's my fun meme for this one as you'll see here I think hopefully everybody likes this meme uh Elro impact some of the new changes will be very impactful to armies so the cost increases in this army are felt because they were right where you tend to have a lot of units the 270 point thing doesn't surprise me at all Jordan that that's right the analysis I had when I was looking at list I was like wow that's you know it's it's hitting them where they lived right in a lot of places and then some other and then there's just like splash damage that happened onto other units that you're just like why but fine the spirit hero uh unique people also got hit hard for like weird reasons like we mentioned this is El Tharian and and these kinds of people right that just um didn't seem like they they needed he didn't need to go up that much but also like boy did Avalon or go up boy you know just have to go up too much and I don't know uh and so my final question here is the lore seeker is no longer unique and only went up 10 points so can LRL win games solely off this hero like can you just win games with if they don't reunify him or in some way yeah okay so uh well Jordan why don't you start so okay yeah I got I have thoughts so yeah even from the start I've never been as sold maybe as as other people have I totally get his utility he's he's amazing but I look at it from like again a lot of my my frame references looking competitive and you know going to an event and trying to win all your games and there are a lot of armies that can can deal with it right um like even um so Oliver we've mentioned the chat uh is one of our season of war guys on our crew and um we played a game with gardens and I mean he's not gonna stand up very long there even with a five blade dart thing and so sure I think with that and the prevalence of mortals and now the non stacking plus is to save that usually impacts him um or you know lack of you know re-roll that's that's a good point yeah the for a base is a big impact I noticed that last night when I played against him yeah yeah so so I do think he's a great tool and especially if you can put in somewhere protected um but it's tough also I don't know also with the new missions I think it's going to be the real real and their test for his viability is like there's so many where now you gain control you know when you're deployed on it you know there's a lot where you're the they are in the deployment zone so I I haven't played a game yet at least where I've been able to like put him down effectively um you know and not just be like okay you're gonna kill him turn one if I put him down in your zone so I can't do that that's been kind of what I've been running into yeah I'm endlessly impressed by this guys I mean I play against LRL quite a bit and my opponent always used one like every time and there's the various ways you can use this dude between dropping on an objective or putting him in your backline to screw with you and just be annoying and threaten your own backfield objective or show up and cast a spell like I didn't want to think about this guy showing up and dropping new shackles right in front of your army and it's like oh well that was fun I guess I just won't run or charge now anymore so thanks um you know unless I happen to roll a naturally uh with a lot of my armies uh so you know like the idea of four of these idiots running around and just like all the objectives on the board are mine so deal with that now yeah like you're right one it might have been kind of hard to keep alive in the new rules I'm not sure four it's suffer that same fate it's all I'll say yeah when I can just be like all of your objective are belong to me right I got a ball and I'm four drop or whatever you know like because you'd favor the drop the lower drops and then you just take everything right that they that you basically can and then you're like okay uh well like I definitely max scored the first turn right like I maxed out the first turn and until you pull me off I'm going to keep pushing toward max because I'm automatically filling the I have at least one objective and I have at least two objectives thing that tend to occur on a lot of these not all of them but on a lot of them right so at any rate but that would become a crutch like I don't get me wrong I don't think any of this is a good thing like honestly this guy should go back to unique and other things should probably be kind of like a couple things should be adjusted like I really just think switch the sentinels are warden points and all of a sudden we've got a much better force on our hands right there just looking to see where he gets to where he has to deploy outside of your territory three inches away from the enemy well I don't feel anywhere outside okay yeah Jordan as you're talking yeah I started flipping at the flipping through the GHB scenarios I hadn't looked through and to see which ones the lower seeker would be really good at because there were quite a few in the 2.0 but so yeah I'm not you're right I'm not seeing that many that's yeah there's something last time I mean it depends there's still a lot of versions of previous things that he's going to be strong on right like there's a new battle for the past and a new three points of power and a new all those kinds of things and you know he's sure he's a strong contender on those kinds of ones so that's right yeah for sure some missions he'll definitely be abusive in a you know one or two especially could be like you're saying it could end the game before it starts right so yeah but I don't know I don't think overall if you look at a five game thing he's going to be doing that every game no no no definitely not like at most even if you've got four of these they're waiting you like they're going to give you one or two wins though in a tournament just on their existence which is something oh for sure and another big key with not being unique is the ability to take artifacts and yeah different things so so obviously this you know first one to jump to mind for a lot of us luminous flares I'm sure was blade of leaping gold for plus three attacks and uh flaming weapon as a spell so he's doing seven attacks at like twos and threes rend one d d three plus one damage but yeah 100 so so he will have I think it opens up different options like that yeah you have to say I think time will tell I'm you know has yeah I don't know I'm I think he's good and great and can be very useful in many situations um but I don't know if he's going to be the menace like like for instance I don't know if I would personally say he's the best hero in the game um but you know again that's I think time will tell yeah I've got I've got one in mind for that title yes when I've gotten mine he's got all kinds of titles that he likes to get to himself apparently but we'll get to him later yeah he's he's very under pointed in this game right now sure I yeah I agree with that I should could easily see him going up another 20 points so on the yeah I played a lot one use that I've seen with a lore seeker is it's a you often don't necessarily have to worry about your drop count with luminous if you have a lore seeker because he is he can be your protection in in that regards where you can potentially force your opponent to go first depending on the situation in which your opponent can place him you know where you can place him uh yeah I've experienced that a few times that's been pretty effective I like your point about the non-stacking saves he's got a four four plus save so that's kind of you know because the world too small he has his own built-in bonus so he's just most of the time got a factor from that right so he's just at yeah that's kind of where it stops everything else beyond that it's just rent protection right which is not always which is not always mattering sure yeah it's sure it makes a big impact because that dude is running around on two up most all the time before yeah like just baseline he was running around on two up uh all right I want to keep moving uh doom asked did we cover ogres and stormcast yet no we're not going to cover stormcast doom because their points aren't real we know they're all wrong and we're going to get new points in uh in their book when it comes out in a couple weeks um we will cover ogres later um they're in the destruction section so we'll get there okay all right so uh who's your favorite it's you and buy a lot yes we love you lrl uh i guess though the the real way to redo this meme though should have been to have doc there because it's like tab the other two to have lrl and idk and then doc and be like who's your favorite it's you and buy a lot like that would be the real meme because there is a definite hierarchy here okay seraphon oh boy oh boy let's talk about dem lizards so seraphon went up an average of 11.38 percent i'm sorry that number got a little cut on the bottom uh points moves across the board but nothing overwhelming uh is my answer here now obviously a bunch of that 11.38 percent is a lie because it's being driven up by croak right and his kind of fake increase through broken realms right um and getting a totally new scroll your other big movers were things like why yeah exactly why did they have to hit the one thing in this army that i truly loved which was the the skink chief on stegadon he was a little hidden gem he was my little baby boy he could he could punch above his weight if you put all the things on him but he was still fun nobody was complaining about the skink chief on stegadon okay because he's a fun goofy piece you used in like thunder lizards uh coalesced right to like run around and give him a million extra attacks and suddenly he's just like wow and he does like 30 or 40 damage because you put all the buffs into him and somebody's like whoa that's that's a little skinky dude just went crazy that was amazing everybody was happy i never had anybody get mad at me when i played the stegadon or the skink chief on stegadon right yeah and he went up 55 points holy moses if he's going up that much because of the potential synergies then i'm going to need you gw to explain to me in very clear words why skinks are still only 75 points okay very good question because if we're costing based on synergy then skink should be like 100 points for 10 bare mints i like you okay bare mints absolutely if i'm paying 140 points for 10 demonettes that have almost no synergies you can pay 100 for stupid skinks okay love it so i just i'm gonna need an explanation there on what my beautiful baby boy did again did to you okay okay so there's my summation you guys go ahead even like looking the same thing with the oracle on troglodon and like old blood on karnosaur like those are cool models that we you were so excited to see your opponent play because they were just so cool and you knew they were playing them because they loved them so to see those get like the hardest hits it also puts up you know the average point increase where again maybe we're not pointing the right things necessarily right um in this fashion either so yeah yeah i i think that's absolutely right i mean you know when i look at like i mean yes salamanders got reduced right obviously because of the reinforcement changes yeah um so that's something to note like you could it's packs of two now is sort of where they cap yeah uh now that being said i don't think the stock on salamanders goes down much i've heard a lot of people already talking about just flooding the board with singular sally's right and and just you know having lots of shots maybe having a two-pack to unleash or something like that uh you know but like they're the sally's the big hit because you can't do the three packs anymore or six or million or five million or whatever you were doing before i don't know i i couldn't really i couldn't tell that i couldn't count how many of them there was through the pain of like being hit by neg two rent shooting and then charged by neg two rent mortal wounding biting yeah max of three yeah yeah no and and the coherency or it's not coherency sorry the the reinforcement is also big actually for stings too so 30 blocks is you know 25 percent output difference now they can still have nearly the same amount of stings they're just not buffing as many up in one go yeah it's it is important to say your 40 blocks skinks are gone you're now capped at 30 so that is a thing mm-hmm yeah that that impacts source warriors as well yeah so they're 30 now can't get them up interesting can't believe what we're doing too much complaining about serif on point increases we need to stop it because no i think at the end there's a couple like bad ones here i don't agree with like the old water carnosaur shouldn't have went up 40 most of the big hero monster moves they made here they should have went up some don't get me wrong because they're all hero monsters and as we said hero monsters are good right but they just serif on feels like they got the it's weird because in some armies the hero monsters shot way up they just got like big bumps right and in some armies they kind of stayed flat or went down like we talked about cities earlier and i can't figure out what the difference was right like they're all hero monsters and arguably like the anointed on phoenix that that is like way better than any of the three things we just mentioned as far as its utility in the game yeah okay went down yeah like it feels like we should have had more like if we're gonna say okay hero monsters are all really good we all agree they're strong so categorically we're gonna all put big jumps across the board cool fine all right then then i'll shut up yeah right yeah but i've seen a lot of armies where that's not the case and i just don't know what the difference is mm-hmm uh so pokastro sent me a few thoughts he's been playing serif on a lot uh yeah he he's right there with you on the on the poor skink chief getting his increased the pterodons he thought that was an odd one uh pterodons went up 25 points well i don't think i saw a lot of them i mean you know they're gonna potentially get some play with again turning off a leash out anything that can fly 16 inches occurred that could be effective for turning off a leash out might might see some play and you know maybe a little three-pack two but three packs running around but yeah we didn't see a whole lot of them uh and then let's see yeah he mentioned the unit sizes he thought maybe we might see some more thunder lizard gets a play yeah with just these you know monsters running around sure it's a little bit more of that uh i i tend to yeah no i just that's a great point i the minus one damage is only more effective when you have the plus ones you know save in in 3.0 and everything so absolutely yeah yeah played a lot of games against that yeah with armies with two damage you know like current on swords and yeah it just oh rough iron jaws hates it yeah um let's see uh yeah i think we're gonna move toward uh one of our local guys dan he uses the croak crawl so he would do like 20 source guard and croak and just put in the middle of the table move it forward turn up to turn and it's kind of it's a little bit like arc yarn it's like it's you can't exactly ignore it i mean you can try to but i think especially with these smaller number of objectives it's gonna be even more difficult to ignore and grog just yeah moving up the board big body guards doing his thing um but yeah well i don't know what do you guys think what's there for and do you think that they've obviously they were at the top of the top of the heap they were at the top of the heap i think they came down a little but i think they're still gonna come out okay because again they're a big mixed arms synergistic force that can still largely do the synergies they need yeah like nothing in the changes really hit them they weren't relying on a lot of command ability stacking you know they were relying on a prayer and an ability and blah blah blah all coming together like things that are no longer really limited in any way uh by prayer i don't mean actual prayer i mean like a thing where you roll three up and it happens right it's that's somehow not a prayer um i didn't get clarity on the bound and the spells piece sure yeah they're bound the spells um so yeah i mean my here's my summary page it might be enough to bring them into line but their tools are still very much present right skinks are still one of the best battle line in the game because of the way they take buffs and they're their overall synergy like they just are all the tools in the toolbox got more expensive but the tricks are still here here's a fun fact croak has a 0.02 percent chance to kill himself every time he casts a spell yeah that's just true love it so uh and boy is miscast fun by the way i don't know that it needed to exist in the game it's fine i would have been fine if it didn't i don't know that it needs to come back it's just kind of an extra thing but i will say boy does it actually seem to randomly control spell doms as i was playing like uh i had two games this weekend against uh selva death who had a larryl in the group and twice in in in the first game on her first cast she miscasts inch went boom and stopped the rest of her spell casting and hurt herself and i was like haha your folder having a multicaster first off that's hilarious of you to talk about silvaneth in the context of spell doms yeah but but sure i my point was any multicasters because you're a hundred percent right that reminds me miss miscasting with uh say a unit of ten mordans what the hell happens does the wizard model blow itself up the answer is FAQ the answer is FAQ happens right uh and then was the change to croak enough to bring them in line probably not this is my answer like i mean they're just a dominant army i i know anthony i know you disagree your own experiences or your own experiences but these guys top three tournaments constantly like constantly they had a way out the fat middle win rate their win rate was exorbitant like in any given tournament they were usually in the top three almost that consistently almost every tournament result like that is too good they were simply too good now that doesn't mean every build of them is too good or something like that right but like they were absolutely dominant and there were armies that played against them that were just like a fair number of them that were just non-games yeah yeah it's it's it always it's straight oh we can move on but it kind of struck me as an army that doesn't necessarily need that much change to get meaningfully knocked down in just in terms of how it would work how it would play but yeah hopefully hopefully that's happened now and maybe we'll see a little bit more variety than we used to but yeah we'll see uh it's i i personally hope that they like i don't want them to be ruined i think serif under a super cool army full of super fun stuff right yeah um but i i want to see like but i want to see them come into range like they they need a bit of a kicking like i'm sorry but when you're a top army that's just got a 60 plus 70 win rate you know in that range yeah like you gotta you're gonna get a kicking i'm sorry to say we all hate it we all we all we all love it when it's not our army and we cheer when they get a kicking but like it sucks if you're that person but it has to happen i yeah okay silvaneth speaking of dominant forces in the meta uh my my my thing here is pretty big moves for an army in a rough place but they might still be slightly better uh they've got some interesting things going on they do have quite a few hero monsters yep um they have uh their new woods rules are honestly way better than i thought they ever could be um like their ability to actually just turn like to set up onesies of woods yeah makes a lot of incidental things better just like metamorphosis gets a lot better the fact that it's also on a three up now right um it becomes actually pretty easy to turn five wound heroes into just single onesies of woods right right um which can then just be little buff spots for you later uh you know there's they still have like the tree lord ancient going up 35 points for a 300 point single caster no like okay that was rough yeah you know like that's that's one that's kind of that's a that's a rough pill to swallow particularly with war song revenant now on the scene yeah and you know like the war song revenant is really strong new allarial is probably okay if she's used correctly um you still have to protect her because she can't get jumped if she gets jumped she's going down right like if she gets hit by a hammer she will right right um so you know she's not the 740 points tough of 660 point marathi or or you know archeon or anybody else in that point range like she is the weakest of all the gods now i'll say if she doesn't go down she's back to full next round like that's definitely happening now yeah yeah uh so you gotta like spike her like a football or just leave her alone um but yeah i tyler this is your like you you have a deep love for silvin f obviously yeah i'll tell us jordan so you can okay i'll give him the chance to go first by all means jordan tell me what what you thought yeah i know me and tyler have many a many night conversation about so um exactly what you guys said i think just the heroes didn't necessarily need to be hit as hard as they were like you know yeah i don't know it's tough i'm so hopeful for this army has so many people i feel like are about you know the buffs helping them in in uh it was three and i was so optimistic with the changes until the ghp now i'm still optimistic don't get me wrong but like 35 points to turn off like that seems wild to me at a 20 increase nearly like right that yeah like i don't i get it turn off or are great no because they're all too good it's it's they got the five wound model curse exactly yeah and they do have reroll saves which is even better when you can do a plus whatnot you know anytime uh so they have some great utility but like for an army that was struggling like you know like you said to be hit like this with with bait increases was a little surprising to me um yeah i'm definitely loving you know i think many of us are gonna make use of the new hero the war son rev like he's our best caster in our army now um like the yeah we saw it i don't like in our last battle report we saw but i had a larry all literally she just didn't shift down all games so by by you know an 80 point stave and hero yeah and yeah justice the lack of that plus one cast dispel unbind on her is is criminal yeah like fine no ward whatever but she has to have a plus one cast dispel unbind anyway yeah and the war son i think bring the war son got the treatment of what we are hoping for larryl now i actually i love larryl in the current game she has an awesome war scroll very fragile still but still an awesome war scroll she can do a lot but the you know the war son rev got one he's not unique so he's flexible he has plus one near wildwood that should be like an allegiance ability plus one to cast near wildwood sure um and then also he has he got like was like a four up ward save like that's how but those were the things we were hoping for larryl you know barring other changes but i mean again so so he's i know tyler there's a couple builds where you you know build into him in different ways which are really cool yeah so he's yeah he if anybody hasn't seen it so check out just plays latest battery port the first three point a battery port there's an incredible moments involving the war song revenant that led to a meme you may have seen on twitter floating around involving tom and richie it was amazing and it really highlights the mortal wounds bomb potential of a war song revenant as spell portal has really changed so that's still on the table you can check her unleash sprites his unleash sprites through spell portal nine inches from the spell portal yep and uh you've got ways now like best where you could do vesperal gem where you autocast thernivines and so you're getting plus two cast on thernivines you just hang keep hanging out in the same spot keep them protected stacking thernivines spell portal by a side somebody else cast or whatever and yeah and just if you don't have a way to get it off the board it could get really scary as as the game goes on so there's we could spend 20 minutes on the war song revenant there's so many different builds with with that guy but yeah i so lots of thoughts on some of that i i think they are a very intriguing faction in relation to 3.0 feels like there's going to be a number of folks coming back and trying to make them work i mean that you know like lori is excited it's one of the play testers lori is playing them today he is playing war song revenant and allereal it's cool to see i wish i had a couple of folks just get some other opinions matt davies he did statistically the best at least in terms of tracking on jp's statistics of any similar player over the over the last year math malo on twitter he was a little more down on them than i was expecting matt's matt's opinions i think i think he's generally worried about the kernal thunder point increase you know like whether you're going to have the needed damage output even with size at minus two rend that was something that's and i think he's concerned about swords now you know previously he would be running six swords i don't know jordan if you ever tried that we talked a lot about that like a unit of six that's yeah that's not really doable of course now because they're when it's reach right and yeah so yeah i mean it's his general takeaway he's a little more down on them than than i expected yeah tree lord ancients be down the tree revenants you know they i think it was nice to see that they didn't get a point increase they're probably where they should be right about now yeah yeah and you'll see more because spites did get the point increase where they were 20 cheaper so they were you would take them just as they were dirt cheap right now and only a 10 point difference you're just going to pay 10 points more for unit that teleports yeah absolutely there's a lot of hope once i mean as always around dirthu that he's going to get out of his derp through phase and i i'm not sure like we do have list potentially have more reliable healing maybe particularly the warsong revenants there and maybe spell portal to get the reach if he's up field doing business but the the problem is you know jordan a lot of people know with him is you just do a few wounds to him and the six damage goes to be six damage which makes him entirely unreliable so that's i'd say that's still the main issue with with dirthu we do have obviously so the the ger trade that's in all games of oh profile that's a great point so that helps him but it means you you're not doing plus one to hit with him or right you know so so it it helps but it's not like you you don't get both right so it's not right what you want but it's like but you've got it out yeah exactly yeah yeah so another friend uh david sidebotham he's played them a lot so i was asking david for his thoughts he kind of went through you know he thought dredwood is still decent uh matt didn't didn't quite agree on that dredwood was the one that everybody used to play for the most part is the teleport one you know like you do nine size you can't do that anymore you can do six size now as max i think we still might see some play it seems like that's still a little pretty viable but he really thought that uh heartwood in particular is getting really turned on under jordan you've been i think you did a game your first three point no game was heartwood against scaven and you were you were experiencing that because the lord of the hunt command ability it goes on an enemy units and it's real ones to hit and wounds against that enemy unit so amazing synergy with the new commands i can see heartwood being a really really hot choice and then it also is i so i played heartwood lot in 2.0 and it's the best way to run turn off with bows because you get reroll hits for turn off within 12 of the artifact right so and and that actually also affects uh them with unleash hell so where they do get minus one hit still they'll be on fives unleash hell but it's fives rerolling is a huge difference um so a unit of six of those you know 12 shots on fives rerolling and run one it's like it's it's scary mm-hmm yeah 100 i think drycha is even more interesting now so i think i think she lost behemoth yeah but obviously i mean she is that tin wound but she's a monster uh unleash hell is really interesting with her she benefits from the commands i mean just all the things you go down the list that we always talk about with with these hero monsters she benefits from sure her problem is she has 10 wounds she was nine wounds she'd be so much better absolutely that that does let her fit in the one drop battalion a lot easier yeah yeah that's true i mean if she was nine when she could still fit because you can take a nine one here over the big one so yeah i'm sorry i meant if she was over oh yeah yeah with like with sorry with someone like a lariola or something yeah yeah it would be yeah i wish she just lose the wound she used to get slightly weaker she'll be 10 times better yeah i can see like tree lords potentially you know they're 190 they're a little more interesting to me now they've got the monster rampage you know they're a um a tool they're a piece that for roar to to move with like six eyes potentially you know a little power pair tree lords six sides running together when you need to get that roar off i think that could be kind of interesting they got stomp which stomp stomp us you know if you can get it off it's four up but it's it's it's still nice and yeah it's like it's it's hard to say it there's a lot more promise on the table uh dry adds i think msu in my opinion you're you're mostly i it's fun to say that hold on let's let's let's just because we we gotta move but here's my name for this by the way which is a larial and ogre the my favorite conspiracy theory in aos is my name for this uh so the woods changes new larial and the flute man have some work to do um so new woods remain the best change in the book as they can now be set up as much faster and easier to pass up buffs they are one of the few armies that can put 30 blocks of actually pretty interesting battle line on the table relatively cheap like the fact that dry adds went down under 95 so i i did uh like i my opponent on over the weekend i played two games against sylvanath he did use 30 blocks of dry adds in both games and it was actually interesting like dry adds are the fact that there's more woods all over the place means that it's much easier to keep them kind of going on their sort of abilities right when because he was turning people into woods and summoning woods and you know just like ones these ones these woods woods woods woods right like it would just they could just pop out kind of anywhere right and so it kept them a lot more functional in that way um because they were sort of always having their abilities on yeah definitely uh you know and and realistically you're getting you know 30 of them for 285 i think is what it comes down to and yeah and you know they they're not bad they do have a big reach because they got their little long tender arms they do have a two inch reach right yeah uh so give them plus one attack and yeah i mean there's there's a lot of buffs you can actually put on them that can they can make them do some work i don't like don't be wrong i don't think they're like an amazing let's let's sure i don't want to overstate the case here right i'm just saying i think they're they're interesting so i do agree with you they could be msu and that's fine i also think you could use a big block and you they're one of the few types of big blocks like that isn't that isn't overcosted and you can actually get some work out of that's what i'm saying yeah absolutely yeah yeah i'm less i'm i'm still worried about the bows i just i mean you have to obviously have to be able to ship people off of objectives and you're putting so many points it like if you go six bows you're what 450 yeah that's crazy yeah even even a hardwood to me that's crazy like i i don't know i i'm even skeptical about six bows and hardwood in relation to your capacity to ship people off objectives and actually play the game and you know win games but yeah so i i still think they're going to come down to yeah mobility alleros really interesting war song revenant amazing i mean that's that's the best range damage output potentially in the army other metamorphosis definitely been turned on a little bit as well so it might be cool allarial and war song revenant try to lean into the range damage output and then yeah bodies you know just focus on objectives with the rest of your army six sides are still turned on but yeah it generally feels like it's going to be similar but you might be leaning more into hero monsters i just i still worry that derthu is gonna i don't know he'll find a way to still be terrible all right let's keep moving gentlemen we got a lot still to cover and as we leave order behind it is time to enter chaos all right well i set the two big ones up front so we can coast toward the end of the whole here but all right just blow through the the death and destruction ones even though there are going to warrant some very interesting discussion mm-hmm all right chaos so lots of changes across a lot of armies uh let's get into it beast oh chaos uh many they're the beast i didn't know if you had their all Irish actually it's weird um but anyways they they have many monsters but they're still in a tough place in the monster edition is my argument um none of these points moves outside of the end the spells are like actually very big but they're all kind of meaningful in a world where you sort of spam stuff yeah i mean you know um on gore is going up 10 and you know your basic gore is going up five which is comical they're one of the worst teams in the game uh doom bull go sorry the doom bull going up 15 you're there's just a lot of moves around here right um bull gore is going up 15 like okay sure um you know the the there are bright spots here i guess like you know dragon ogres again got the i'm five wounds penalty by going up 20 points yeah which just feels really unearned uh for what they're capable of achieving but i mean sure that's it is six models now so okay i guess that is true uh you know some of the zangor stuff got cheaper that's probably the bright spot here in this story is some of the zangor stuff went down significantly so maybe there's uh maybe there's some some action there um certainly things like the cockatrice um been which i've been repping forever uh you know like at a 95 point monster i'm i'm all for that anytime you can get a 95 point monster that can start using monster abilities and any bad yeah jordan which any any beast to chaos insights i mean the army was rough i'm not sure it got helped in any amazing way that's my that's my summary i'm surprised to see them be even at the average increase you know or most of the average like i'm like you said i thought this is an army that would stand still where everyone went higher right right um and this probably what should have happened in you know in my opinion um or a lot of it like yeah i i don't see this new addition helping them where where there's hope with sylvaneth uh from my perspective i don't think beast of chaos has the same hope maybe i'm wrong or missing something but hoping for that book really soon yeah i mean i think that's yeah this there's not much to say here there is some talk that they're going to get a new book soon i hope that's true i think there's so much potential in this army it's such a cool army yeah um like it just has such character and flavor and that's exactly what i was saying at the beginning of the show jordan you hit it like if we had moved everything else in the game up like 18 on average and then this army went up four percent on average right and we held a lot of things sort of stable then okay all of a sudden like yeah that we we could have done it maybe with points right because we could have pushed everybody else up this would have been a great opportunity to not push up as much right yeah yeah that wildfire torus at 110 that might not be too bad if you're able to double tap it if it's still on the board yeah it depends on what it's going to do now like if it keeps the same functionality which i assume it will with a cost like 110 probably yeah yeah it's pretty good yeah i mean my my final summary was the zangor is a bright spot it's interesting um so that's kind of cool i guess they're hit hard by the changes to battle shock and by the way losing their cool god battalions this is the only army in the game that lost war scroll battalions that i cared about this is it so i want them to get a new book tomorrow to re-instantiate those yeah some way yeah um the buffs they got from broken realms weren't really on the level they were weak as all get out right mm so yeah those are strange yeah i mean beasts need love that's that's that's this i can't think of anywhere else to say it sure okay uh blades of corn uh currently in a tough place and it only got tougher uh they had an average gain of nine percent so just slightly above average mm they basically had you know sort of points moves across the board none of them uh were like most of them weren't too incredibly big big but they're here like blood warriors went up 30 which is yeah hilarious okay oh yeah uh like that's very funny that you think like blood warriors okay sure why not why let's yeah okay sure i haven't seen them on a table and god knows how long sure it's been forever skull reapers went up 25 which is like a lot that's a lot a lot uh putting putting skull reapers at a 205 point unit is uh it's choice um and you know the the i guess like i look at it i'm like oh wrath mongers only went up 15 i guess that's good you know that's what i'm sitting over here feeling like like i guess wrath mongers are pretty good um shout out to chorus coal going down 15 points uh terry tate corn linebacker coming in from the from the outside with the eight inch pylon i just assume he shows up in every army now because one of the one of the better deals rolling around so okay yeah yeah he is interesting now uh his eight inch pylon lets him dodge a lot of it's hard to redeploy away from him even and and he can jump around on the shell right he can actually go in engage something and then you can charge them you know i mean like or whatever you know i'm saying corgis piles in during combat sorry so it's not like you could you have to charge me later turn but the point is he sure right uh yeah i mean there was nothing here i looked at and went well this is going to help them yeah what there's just didn't go too much yeah sure i mean they didn't uh you know i think scar brand staying the same is really strong i think that's one of your stronger choices in the whole army right now scar brand is is pretty dangerous he can actually have his flying back now you can restore his wings if you cast levitate on him oh sure you can have a spellcaster here we go take a drink you can because you can give your heroes now the arcane tome like it doesn't have a corn prohibition so you can have spell casting corn heroes which is funny you know so you can give give him back his wings so there's there's something uh you know i mean bloodthirsters your right didn't go up that much we're gonna talk about some other greater demons later that did go up a lot more yeah um so you know yeah it's like i don't know what we were hoping to accomplish with corn here but i can't see it happening like is there a bright spot here the bright spot is not listed here i'm right it's the it's the greatest hero in the game okay and it was what was carrying corn all of last year archeon archeon sure yeah so i got up so little yeah so it's it's a shout out to constantinos our friend uh paint for the pink god amazing corn player this guy will melt your brain with the level of detail that he gets into in terms of his tactics with corn and the combos that he finds yeah he's been running i mean he was early on the archeon with rippers of vengeance yeah and those those builds really one of the first that i'd ever heard of running it and he sent me a little thesis i'll like seven pages on corn and it's it's incredible but obviously we don't we need to do almost an entire show on corn to do to do a justice but i mean that was one of his high little takeaways is essentially you start and end with archeon right with this arm i agree uh which is cool yeah cool but unfortunate for the rest of faction right like you'd love to see it be better than just that sure tied to one character that's not even you know natively in the book yeah yeah i mean it's like do you just take archeon and uh scar brand and then figure out what else is playing in your army from there like take some flesh hounds or something so they can run around like is that your is that your move yeah i i just you know like a lot of people were running yeah flesh hounds tyrants of blood of course it's gone now just a big deal uh reapers you're only going to get to do one double activation right you reduce the number of prayers that you can do now i mean that was that was huge with like blood boils popping off multiple blood boils that was scary yeah there are a lot of the judgments now may not be around anymore you know as often anymore there's more ways to get those off the board yep they took a lot of hits yeah the i mean potentially i could see still blood thirsters being you know getting the benefit of the hero monsters there are four up save not the three up saved getting it out to two up but any other three potentially they got roar turn off save whatever that you know that's good get plus one a hit is nice uh scar brand potentially two's and two's to really turn him on with one of his axes so yeah but constantino's list was just gotta give you guys a sense here for folks yeah i think he had double war shrine i mean he had a lot of slaves darkness sure it was basically yeah arch on so yeah double war shrine like another army we're going to talk about later the key is don't play very much corn play a lot of slaves darkness yeah exactly it was mostly blood essentially all that he had from corn was a slaughter priest with a skullsharp mantle blood sacrifice a battle line three by ten blood reverse to die you know chaff up keep your keep your shrines you know screened off a little bit two by five chaos night he's really big on chaos nights sure i think they're a good shout in three point out now yeah two more shrines and arch on but yeah we'll have to let's find a way maybe we can link to to his full write up because i think folks would find it fascinating it's it's really in depth uh overview on all of the different things that you can do with arch on now and it is which we'll get into it probably a little bit more later but it i mean he was already i think the best model in the game 2.0 bar none well other than maybe marathi and then you know lore seeker is interesting but it's it's our kind of marathi my opinion it's top two yeah but yeah i mean he's at a whole new level now they're the best god heroes arch on i would park on his number three in my in my if we're just gonna like if we did a rank the hero show it'd be it'd go lore seeker marathi arch on okay fair enough yeah but yeah i mean he was practically unkillable in 2.0 and it's even more so now like yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean my my sort of summary is they were hit hard by things like coherency and a lot of the fundamental rules changes but there is some potential many of the core units the army are on 32 mil bases which just sucks like you have more orders but worse you have you know all these things where they're just on like big bases for no reason right they're very sensitive to the new mechanics such as redeploy and unleash hell because they they they want to walk up and punch you and armies that are basically i'm going to walk up and punch you it's it's relevant right right um you know blood tide is still what it is that their their blood tide move is is also impacted by the things we've mentioned already in the movement phase uh because it is a normal move or whatever right so it's affected by all those things we just mentioned um you know what's an essential way that you can get around some you know like charge in the hero charge in the hero phase that's pretty good maybe you can only shallow on them maybe f a q pending sure right like yes it is a charge phase command ability as it says in six point whatever seven point whatever but it doesn't uh but it doesn't specifically say you can only use in the charge phase i will be actually to see what ruling on that is right um you know bloodthirsters are pretty solid monster heroes but they remain fragile but you know they're also not super expensive uh and as i guess corgis cold mortal realm's lying backer i'm uh i'm back at him i'm serious i love this guy i love an eight inch pilot in the new current game again good luck redeploying away from me good luck you know you're never going to unleash hell on me and you're never going to redeploy away from me i will catch you right right just uh jordan you have any thoughts on corn i had a few more things we can move on yeah not really i just yeah similarly they're just struggle with a lot of you know and shooting only getting better and not having any of their own yeah yeah so uh joe is one of the tit she's another player if i said your name correctly joe i probably didn't but you're probably used to that with americans trying to pronounce your last name uh yeah he has very similar thoughts you know a lot of priests took a hit uh i thought we might see more msu with blood tide maybe they'll benefit a little bit more if there's more msu on the table more blood tide so they can get um yeah i thought you know bloodthirsters might see still see some play let's see some of the other winners constantinos yeah he mentioned corgis i think he mentioned the lord on juggy yeah he thought that was a thought that was a pretty good pick the flesh hands got cheaper yeah uh scarred blood wrath you know he thought that was still a pretty good pick he's kind of mixed on on the on the bloodthirsters demon prince i heard alex tubs on age of the gash talk about this the other day demon prince with that corn demon prince with the incredible command you combine that with redeploy oh my god that thing was already amazing and now yeah corn demon prince best demon prince no questions done yeah like it's just that's that's an easy that's easy he's top of the pile by a mile yeah i don't even think they changed the points on the demon prince they did not he is the same prince we'll talk about when we get to slaves of darkness yeah all right let's do disciples of zinch let's get into it uh big points hits to one of the kings of the ring uh there's some big old changes here so karak acolytes as we all know dominant force of all the top tables you just you never saw a top list without hordes of karak acolytes uh up 25 you know completely reasonable there uh the the changeling of the table my friend kody plates i'm a couple of yeah at our last event sure and he was like what what the hell is going on with this nonsense yeah the fate skimmer of course another another auto include in your list not the fate master the fate skimmer sure up 40 i can completely seems reasonable uh the uh kairos up 35 the lord of change up 40 big old number their uh burning chariot shooting way up exalted flamers up 40 and flamers themselves up 35 points now 175 by the way where they probably belong that's like what they would say a lot of these i'm not sure i agree with i legitimately think flamers are worth 175 yes they die super easy but they also kill anything they point at right like they are just click click debt uh so like sorry that that kind of ranged power projection that they have is so strong it's like oh okay if i don't kill those things and i activate i just die yeah again i i do worry about i mean like thinking about hero monsters potentially the the higher baseline if you'd better save baseline sure if you'd have a way to yeah roar that is if you're just shooting at minus one rent at critical targets sure they still kept their ability to go to minus two you know right sorry minus one for them minus two for the exalted for the exalted yeah so that's that's good i i do wonder if that if they're gonna feel that yeah in terms of the if it if it's true that you know generally saves are going up in the game because we're gonna have more hero monsters etc rocking around but i mean i don't know i i'm not i'm still not too thrilled about charging into an unleash hell from six flamers i'll just that's fair that's probably fair yeah like i just i feel like they're at the right point value now like yeah they're a super fragile glass cannon unit that's how glass cannons work they do an incredible amount of damage and if you touch them they die like that's called a glass cannon that's what it is right like yeah that's why we all took cannons in six and seventh and eighth edition for years because sure if any five morons went and attacked your cannon your cannon was dead but if the cannon was able to just free fire it would just blow everything away right like yeah that's that's how it works um so you know just a lot like they had a big average gain 21 percent but again they were one of the three biggest bats yeah right yep so compared to sorry compared to someone like seraphon where we were saying it wasn't quite enough this is like the hammer you kind of expect for the the big bats right when they when they get points increases the data hit pretty hard 20 percent average is is really high do you think this is what would you guys rate this like you know compared to the seraphon where we say it wasn't maybe you know heavy enough in the right spots yeah do you think this was at this is too heavy in the wrong spots a lot of the things I agree with like I think kairos at 435 is still completely square okay I just do like kairos is a power piece he'll win you one game in five just by existing okay um like flamers as I've said I think are in the right place I don't know what's going on with pink horrors or what they're going to change clearly they're changing something the unit size issue yeah like are they just going to let the unit cap thing roll where now it's like one pink becomes one blue becomes one brim is that going to be the new world so there are only 30 wounds instead of 50 wounds or whatever you know if if that's the change of the world we're going to live in where you don't go over your starting size so hence you know one pink becomes one blue becomes one brim um fine then okay like I I really want to know what are happening with pink horrors I know there is the one change with the with the new rules where um they they no longer duplicate when they run to battle shock um because battle unless that gets answered that that's not true right like like that's based on sort of a a split apart reading of what slain means which you know it's I'm not saying it's wrong I'm just like it seems like I could read it either way as my point yeah maybe true maybe not they could easily affect you around that so yeah I don't and it's not like I was really worried about the splitting off of battle shock most of time I mean most of the time they split because you were like okay you you had to like get up all of your possible hammer power and then go charge them and hope you could deal 50 wounds right yeah uh can we still use the bail wind vortex no it's gone bail wind is gone and good riddance uh but it is gone uh the let's see yeah I mean I feel like this is there's just stuff in this army that got hit with big changes that I'm like whoa what why right like that should have been like tenors or 15ers or fibers and not 40 and 25 on some of that stuff you know uh like the fate master a staple to every list now admittedly one of his core mechanics on his scroll but suddenly doesn't work anymore right because he used to be able to get plus two to save but now that's capped but he was like a staple of every list because he would just be mr like it's him plus change us but this army took a hit by losing changes let's be honest with you right okay yep and so I just feel like a lot of the ancillary stuff that never got played anyways that honestly I'd like to see more is the stuff they should have been softer with right and and just really hit the offenders like again we know what was winning games in zeech and by the way one thing that was winning games in zeech isn't even on this table because he's already been mentioned once right uh like the host arcane um uh archie on build still intact yeah right that yeah if I were trying like trying to build again build for a tournament that's where I would look right now yeah I mean yeah we would see a lot of archie on and kairos and host arcanum power pairing and yeah that that's generally still intact uh you you'll get a little bit less but yeah oh I guess it's actually changed those you're you're gonna it's going to be a wash so yeah uh yeah so again as one of our local guys Cody his thoughts uh he emphasized zangors you know he thought maybe we're gonna see them a little bit more he's been running some zangors impacts of 20 I believe they have a two inch reach no I might be wrong on that there another great blade that you would run with minus and rent it's only one one inch reach and they're on 32 so that's a bit of an issue but yeah all the zangor stuff in this army got hit harder than I would have imagined honestly yeah like okay skyfires are sort of the scary ones right because they're the shooters so it's like okay they're probably gonna be plus 20 and the regular enlightened which are going to suffer from the coherency challenge uh would go up less nope it's exactly the opposite the enlightened on disc went up 20 and the skyfires went up 10 and I'm like okay I don't what huh right yeah absolutely so yeah he he thought that maybe there'd be ways you could buff zangors to get them to be interesting at that 195 value uh with 20 wounds and in a packed in a minimum size uh yeah screamers they went up 20 they didn't really need to go up I mean you know obviously they were in host arcana you'd see a lot of them yeah you should get to seven six of them for free yeah exactly yeah so whatever I did one question on kairos so in terms of like miscasting you roll the double ones can you guys know if end if he can oracle to change one of those in the sequencing should be able to yeah because it happens his his replacements happen at the right timing I believe that he can switch okay top it over okay so he could stop a miscast I believe that means he could also cause a miscast exactly yeah that was going to be the next point yeah so here you go kair here you go uh lord croak or sure yeah somebody's on their first cast in a critical round and they roll one one like one into six I'm pretty sure kairos can step in and flip the die back to a one and then force them into a miscast I'm pretty sure that's the timing on that right because the nature of when replacements happen versus rerolls or whatever that sounds like fun that does that's great I will say that sounds like a very zinch move like that is I have zero problem with that that feels like a super zinchy thing like oh right when you were gonna rely you're gonna rely on your magic against me zinch the changer of the ways the lord of magic and sorcery like nah dog uh uh no so the I think the consummoner yeah consummoner went out 15 255 that seems a little nuts I mean it was not seeing any play in zinch now that you can only do five pinks at at that so that that was strange it's an army without a lot of hero monsters so you've got you got lord of change and kairos so that could be a bit of an issue uh I do wonder if guild of summoners is worth looking at again we're popping out more free lords yeah yeah well free free but you know what I'm saying for sure yeah yeah you could probably yeah if you're leaning into the cast you probably get two in a game certainly one in the game but potentially two in a game I think there's a plus one cast with that uh definitely I mean I think they're gonna be leaning heavily into the new and the spells uh I suspect that's going to be a big play yeah max max three and still ignoring their own three right right those will continue to not see play yeah I've seen some of eyes a little bit but yeah that seems a little quite excessive burning sigil and demonic some of that some of that I mean unless the burning sigil suddenly does something very different that is a clinical points value I've actually had a buddy who took burning sigil multiple times against me and it never did anything ever I was like he would cast these like do you want to spell this no no I don't yeah but unless I mean yeah I wouldn't be too surprised if somebody figures out some nice builds outside of Archeon who's Arcanum but that's that to me that just looks like the obvious one like if you want to play competitive zange but yeah they they got a big hit it felt like maybe a little you said it perfectly vents a little bit too much in the wrong areas right yeah uh so they took a really big hit yeah I mean that's my sum like lots their key tech pieces are really really expensive now something is going on with pink horrors still some powerful tools and heroes like kairos and then you know Archeon can still slide in here and the grand crutch of the ever enablement will continue to be a threat in like host Arcanum yeah this is like my favorite meme here I found for zinge which is zinge and zinge stopping zinge's plans in the in the predator meme so I really enjoyed that one that's very much zinge they really don't want you playing individual blues and brims yeah no kidding they jack the points on those crazy like oh okay got it so we just take pinks then yeah yeah so yeah all right nurgle uh blight sking blight king spam took a hit but I think the army did really well overall um their average gain looks higher than it should like because of a couple weird percentages um that jumped up there but honestly they like they had a lot of things go down epidemias went down the harbinger of decay went down lord of afflictions went down slobby bio piper and the scrivener went down with their new refreshed war scrolls right um like these are all things that are in the conversation at least and they all went down right now of course that the the the story we have to mention is that the future blight kings went up 25 they're no longer 140 they're still 165 they're still a great deal in the fact that there are what 21 wounds for for 165 points on a pretty solid frame running around in fives they're not paying any attention to new coherency you generally took them in fives anyways so fine now they can't get their rend anymore which hurts especially in the new edition of higher saves so we do need to of course take that into account and then the great unclean one went up 30 you know from 320 to 350 I think he's still fine as a big hero monster you know he's he's quite survivable he can do a lot of things uh I think he's okay I think things like um the morbid ex and or guts and those kinds of things they probably are going to would need to still go down farther to be super interesting but they're they're in the conversation in an interesting way okay because like so let's take morbid ex okay morbid ex twice born who went down five points he's now like 235 right so he's a 12 wound hero with a three up save okay that magical three up save base there you go and he is a monster yeah all right uh now he does have a pretty not great wound charts okay got the old one yeah it's not fantastic but at the same time 235 or 220 those kind of cheap monster heroes I haven't really seen many people talk about them they are all the all the I don't know what you call those blowab rot spawn who also went down 10 like the they have a name I don't remember what it is MAGA for it's thank you somebody courage to put it in there but they're kind of interesting now because they are cheap monster heroes yep like they can go do work they all count as five now on objectives they have hero abilities and monster abilities you know their rules are decent it's I'm just saying maybe they're maybe they'll show up I don't know I think they could be in the conversation now I really do Jordan what do you any any thoughts on nergal what are your thoughts um well so two of our guys in our local in our play group play nergal and and one of them is huge on the demons after this because like you like you said those two new heroes who had great abilities coming down yeah and you know and play bears exactly same the same yeah and their their abilities are abilities not command abilities right so they don't there's no interference so they're like you know like seraphon they still did all their synergies because they come from different places so that they can be super tanky and like they were already you know bringing back in summoning models now you add in rally to a unit of 30 played bears like sure that those guys are tough to shift and they'll sit around so I think I think you know demons is definitely a huge winner here especially in contrast to the to the light games going going up in points yeah agreed yeah totally agreed I was looking at yeah the one of the other ones or god's demon spew it's got a pretty awesome command ability festern rod using the hero phase so that's great you know always looking for commands you can use in the hero phase sure quote-unquote stack across phases pick a friendly nergal unit within 14 of him reroll failed wound rolls that's got the fail it's got the qualifier but still reroll failed wound rolls for that unit to your next hero phase sure it's pretty pretty hot command ability it's not bad it's not bad at all and that's what I'm saying and that dude's getting everything he's getting all the new toys yeah right yeah and again is he is he also on a three up I think like two or three up and one is on a four up I think yeah he's on a three up 12 wounds yeah yeah nice so you know like there's there's stonks here I really think so nergal's been sort of low-key doing well for a long time when when the Owen Jackson uh ran his fat middle tournament any band of the top six armies on tts by performance yeah nergal was in the top six right I mean that should tell you something uh again I I agree I think the demon side has some stonks we didn't mention puscoil blightlords but those guys are all now also counting as two uh you know plague drones and blightlords both being five or seven wounds or whatever yeah so they're all counting as two on a thing uh and I love I love five wound stuff that is in twos now this is my new favorite unit size so I'm I'm up on dracothean guard I can't wait to see their new scroll I think I cannot wait son can't wait for my scaven riding dracothean guard just wait for that and because two goes to four you know we're still using the great coherency rules I'll burn I'll burn like I could see one unit of those at four then you still got three reinforcement points to use on your plague bearers or something like that right to take a unit to 30 and another unit to 20 or whatever right whatever that seems fine like I'm in we've got some action here right those drop the blightlords let's see where are they the puscoil blightlords yeah they dropped down five they were 190 they're 185 now 185 okay nice yeah I solid and and remember those dudes can become battle lines so you could take them to six but I wouldn't like that's bad yeah sure but the point is they can also be battle line which is cool yeah and the lord of afflictions who has to be the general to make them battle line also good also went down mm-hmm yep yeah I know paul was a big fan he would run the lord of afflictions yeah what about glockin uh yeah he is he went up 15 he's still allyable for if you'd ever want to do that for whatever reason but like all right street 95 he's fine he's a big scary you know monster hero he didn't go up very much it's fine yeah six tags fours and twos minus two two damage you potentially get that the threes and twos okay yeah it's got a fair number of tech profiles uh we've got a lot of abilities yeah I don't look at it is this gonna have a way to get plus one attack I think add one to win characteristic on models oh win characteristic okay yeah I mean it is a shame about blackings losing the minus one rent that that just feels like something we're gonna see added in with the battle tone and that's the rumor is they're gonna get the first battle tone outside of storm cast and war clans so presumably we'll be able to see yeah blackings war scroll minus one rent right there if I was an urgal honestly if I was an urgal player right now I'd be like please don't give me a battle tone I don't want it the risk is too high you might get slanished like just stick with what you got this is fine like I'm fine keep your battle tone I don't need it I don't want it I'm good I got options here for days yeah I've been the past six years with deep pin right yeah exactly now we're good dog broken rums was perfect all you did was take some of my stuff and fix it up a little bit you you was great tooled out of the shop I got a fancy new turtle I got some shark options I'm happy over here thanks yeah I don't I don't need a new car it works fine right yeah this this list stinks of a army that you could really do some creative things with and you know great and clean ones are going to be hot I think you know even more difficult to kill they didn't go up much sure yeah it seems like yeah there's some really innovative lists you could come up with here it's a compete in in 3.0 yeah yeah it's interesting uh yeah so my answer was you know nurgle lost their blights king blight king spam but you can still take a good heap of them and they remain a good value they should come out ahead even or ahead after the battalion tax is removed like if you take out the battalions they tended to buy and look at their points my guess is they're in the positive they might be putting more stuff on the table actually depending on how heavy you like that you leaned into blight kings right right difference there many years had a good move down in points and they're relatively untouched by core rule changes for the most part like they've got lots of penalties against shooting and that's great like yeah okay I charge into you and you can only shell on me with neg 3 to hit like all right have a good time right enjoy your hitting on sixes you you have 40k overwatch when you shoot a beat with only shell all right right so yeah uh okay skaven ohy this table needs to let's move on let's uh let's keep going yeah let's talk skaven no we don't need to oh I see I see the joke I'm with you now get ready my friends for the age of the horn rat is upon you all uh flee from your homes in terror uh oh I love this army now it's so much fun now okay they have a they did have a larger than average points increase but it does nothing but hide the true potential of this army there is nothing I care about that went up on this chart okay your biggest hit is your storm friends your storm friends went up 55 points to 315 yeah well well deserved it is because they are monsters in this new edition they count as two models each they can go battle line and skryer you can take them in nines again oh and oh my god with like because now you can be like plus one to hit spark like go more more work power like it is the spell plus the command ability plus the spark and you are just don't don't do it Benjamin you're better than this don't do it watch as everything dies uh yeah it's amazing uh I've run two games of skaven so far right look I'm just gonna go for a while here guys so tuck in I'm sorry I have a lot of thoughts okay uh somebody said they're surprised about uh the storm burman I'm not mad about storm burman storm burman only went up 10 points yes they cap at 30 now instead of 40 they're fine it's fine it's no issue two inch yeah two inch reach yeah exactly 25 bill base two inch reach like yes they're on 30 which means it's a lot harder to preserve the plus one wound the key escape and add a lot of bonuses that was like it's plus one to hit at 20 and plus one to get wound at 30 so like it's suddenly you it's very hard to maintain that plus one to wound on storm burman I don't really care you can hide them back and then uh you know uh no hold them over or something and and pull the long charge or whatever if people want to focus in on my storm burman I literally don't care like that you there are scarier things in this army you're not shooting at and I am happy about it we are primed with some of the greatest heroes in this edition the vermin lords are pure stonks they are magic incarnate they are double casters that can very easily get multiple bonuses to cast they are hero monsters with a built-in five up word save what's your stupid amulet for that's for peasants peasants need to take the amulet we have that automatically okay most of our heroes have a five up after save and re-rolling their save too and re-rolling the save the vermin lord warpsier who still broadcasts his incredible hero you know his incredible massive uh bubble of battle shock immunity like you know battle shock got to be more of a threat not to us we got so many ways to be immune to battle shock i'm immune to battle shock for days son we got enough of you to battle shock i might just accidentally make your army immune to battle shock by existing uh like vermin lords are incredible and yes of course things like the corruptor if you have flaming weapons like boy does he turn on by simply moving him to plus two damage the vermin lord warpsier is also a command point farm because he's master clan he gets every command point back he spends on a five up he also on a three up generate to an extra command point on a six he generates an extra t three the little plague priest who is an 85 prayer machine uh he's just like you take him you take curse and you go he runs right behind your rats right behind like he just hides right behind your clan rats and yeah he'll occasionally dig them for like d3 mortals for being near them and it's like go ahead charge me come on do it charge my clan rats which by the way can be in 60s now oh sweet how much we love you uh i took 60 clan rats in one of my games uh on on saturday i played scaven and giants that was my two games on saturday and 60 clan rats was amazing i took like 40 wounds to the unit and i was like okay whatever it's fine hello right and like i could have rallied him and i was like nah not even worth it i got other stuff to do was that a very old rolling in for a very old and did 39 damage to my clan right i mean it was incredible like go a lot less that's a hard hit it then she evaporated and uh nobody cared like it was just it was so easy your mortal wounds are everywhere you have you are an unleash hell machine this army is a porcupine army warp fire throwers thank wool warp lightning cannons with a warlock nearby like yeah come on charge me i got lots of things that don't roll to hit how many mortal wounds do you want on the charge because i got them all i got them all i had thank will right behind my clan rats just being like come on yeah come in just moving that will up like let's do it bring it in other than sentinels it's the ultimate business in the front part in the back three point army right now a hundred percent because i just had like i literally had him and then a warp fire throw on each side yeah i was like what are you gonna do what are you gonna charge me with what wants to die uh i mean and that's not even counting i haven't even used storm friends yet i just didn't even bother yet and i still felt the power uh special shout out here for giant rats going down to six packs for 40 points love it love it back in eighth edition we had a thing we called rat darts rat darts were the ultimate chaff you would throw rat darts in front of your army and it would chaff your big units they had to go through your rat dart then they had to go through your 50 slaves and then they could finally get to your your actual units rat darts are back baby six for 40 if i need to charge somebody guess who's going in first to absorb the unleash hell why it's six rats i'm not using them like i don't care that they can't spread out because they're six like i gotta make a little six packer of them um fine fine they're just extra free super cheap chaff that all that just charges it and absorbs unleash hell is like yep go ahead what are they what are they on what base size 25 25 second yep they are six little dudes on a 25 40 points they just easily get in there and absorb unleashes if i can get at the melee unit obviously they don't fly they're not perfect they're not eighth let's not be overstated but it's great uh so i'm all about them like uh rat ogres by the way are still stalks and still real i don't know if anybody's had a chance to play rat ogre since the changes in broken realms but they are incredible now um uh you can do so much with them they're they're so much fun and by the way they only rat ogres basically didn't go up they they went up five points that's it so they're still uh two for 95 which the fact that you can now have six wound four up save rat ogres two for 95 points means you get 12 wounds for every 95 points that's pretty good they still take buffs well and have rend and do two damage oh yeah jordan has has ridge been playing any rat ogres yeah so he just ran four um okay and they are you know stood toe to toe with turnoff with science which is saying a lot yeah well yeah in fact i backed out of that one because i yeah but it's a real man rat ogres will will do the dirty business uh you have an offensive profile and a defensive profile and they they live up to their names they get in there and they take buffs so well so very well because they can easily get plus one to hit just all the time without a command ability just they added some dumb dumb following them around yeah they're a perfect pairing with curse if you curse a unit and then swing in with the six attacking rat ogres it's just like oh okay that unit's just super dead like super duper a million times dead right um yeah they're i i love this army now by the way you can take this army in one drop or four drop varieties extremely easy it fits perfectly into a one drop or four drop profile whichever way you want to go they love extra artifacts we love love extra artifacts because we have lots of good ones that we want to take i don't want to tell you man it stonks in ratland like i'm in so what was your list vents the other night oh god uh so the most recent list i had thank well a vermin lord warp seer 60 clans 20 clans 10 storm vermin uh warp fire thrower two i don't really think it was two uh warp lightning cannon and an archwork or an basic bombity or something like that okay and then a plague priest with curse yeah that's quite a bit going on that's that's pretty good it was a lot i'm probably missing something by the way but yeah i mean it's it's a lot it did the work oh and a claw lord there was a basic claw lord in there too because i always take more it's because again claw is just super super duper tough um uh because they can they just get verminous valor for free which is a command rate they don't have to be the general that lets them four up pat mortal wound pass to to rats so he just stood next to 60 rats and was like i'm immortal what yeah nice and staven is like such a deep book it's like the you know list builders dream right if you just have so many good options uh you just see and it's a great thing right you're gonna see so many varied builds on the table uh so it's i'm super excited to see more staven again yeah i mean i took i went with my warp lightning cannon i used it once to unleash hell overcharged it did seven wounds to myself so it's still alive and then turned around and shot the the the war song guy yeah yeah and rolled the one so i just did 12 mortals to him just wow and he made his exact four ups so he was he took six wounds so he was at one and then i just shot him with a with literally a rat a return and war blamed him to death i didn't even charge him wow there's a reason in in my day i'm so staven still left i'd turn first just to shoot it the warp lightning cannon with such turnoff it's like i can't let that thing shoot at me sure yeah that was a great play yeah it's a nightmare uh yeah so i'm a hard a hard on this army stonks hard core stonks uh they had points increases but this was likely merited uh this army wasn't performing well and selling some help but i think it's just i think the the fundamentals got so strong under them the ground got yeah they are mixed arms lots of powerful monsel heroes and they capitalize in every phase of this thing yeah they can still have incredible board control because they have that you can have these 60 wound units that can still just spread out 30 long comfortable yeah right right and and like if you arc that that can still all be in an immune to battle shock bubble in multiple ways mm-hmm right i mean it's it it's great like this is a it is a list builder's dream it's a like it just it plays to the tactics and sure you can also just take nine storm fiends and 420 plays it like that's true too right right they used to not rely on battalions right these to be pretty high drop yeah there's all they were always pretty high drop yeah if you would occasionally like i would sometimes play around with the verminous one which is sort of your battle line battalion plus the claw lord mm-hmm okay but yeah for the most part you were battalion i mean that yeah that could be a big deal yeah if you if what you're saying is true do solid one drops or four drops yeah that's that's pretty great yeah they they really struck me as having gotten one of the biggest bumps out of anybody just in the hands of good players who know what they're doing good list they're going to be pretty terrifying it seems yeah yeah yeah i shouts to rich i really enjoy him by the way on your he plays yeah he says he says plus one attack from the claw lord as well great because gave an allegiance gives plus one to hit so yep absolutely like it's like the claw lord's a great little guy again he's just a little plus one attack engine and remember clan rats getting plus one attack with a little plague priest falling behind to go curse uh gets real scary when suddenly you've got basic dum-dums who can still retreat and charge just run in with way too many attacks that they should have on 25 mil bases and just start triggering six is immortal wound right it feels good because i pretty sure that's what skinks did forever to win and now we can do it too nonsense uh so speaking of armies that have gotten really good or even better that's right so moving on uh slaves to darkness it's a great time to fall to the dark guys is it ever uh so average gain seven percent uh not too bad uh but again actually that's sort of lying because a lot of that was in places that didn't matter oh we lost jordan okay hopefully he was like no i cannot handle this this heresy i must leave okay because like a lot of their points are actually getting pushed up by dumb stuff like fedras all scryer and the you know the god smore hunt and nonsense like that you know chaos warriors went up to 10 they didn't stick in fives so you could you can go up to 30 and have a 60 wound pack at 600 points but it is doable and they are a hell of an anvil now if you do max them out because now they have built-in re-roll saves uh they test two reinforcement points to get into 30 for 60 wounds they have a built-in five up mortal wound like you know halberd and shields are hand weapons and shields they have a built-in five up against mortals and now they can spark that plus one to save and suddenly they're on three every rolling real easy real easy yeah so good yeah it's been i mean a bit of that you usually see them in 15 or five not tens but yeah i mean given how much better they've gotten in terms of if you get you know avoid getting your commands turned off yeah that's that's an amazing anvil i was happy to see marauders go down to tens they went up a little it's justified completely that's fine like marauders what happened needed to happen yeah cast knights i still think are great plus 10 points up is is perfectly fine for adjustments cast knights are straight killers um the cast chariot going down 15 i absolutely love so i've been hearing about these chaos chariots what's the what's the deal do they do like d3 mortals impact no they have the they have they're better they do an improved ogre charge you roll a number of dice equal to the charge roll and every five up is a mortal wound oh nice okay yeah they're good and they're again they count as battle lines they're they're paying off your battle line they have a nice mortal wound impact hit hey jordan's back there we go hey buddy well we can't hear you can't hear you if you switched your headset or something like that you may need to or you may need to unmute yourself oh there you go good okay yeah it was just you said your thing flip down yep yeah power flittered for a moment so it turned everything off it's all right we were just talking about how slaves of darkness is truly amazing in this new world and yeah i mean we can't bury the headline here archion only went up 30 points or whatever which is ridiculous so i i think he probably should like okay real talk he should be 950 points yeah he feels like 950 a thousand honestly 100 yes he should be 950 points yeah it's crazy that negosh is more expensive than him that doesn't that does not chart in my brain like don't be wrong negosh is real powerful and he's a scary dude and he can do some good stuff and he can he can like you know supercharge all his all his balls and then charge into people and do like 93 mortal wounds and that's super funny right right but archion just wins games he is a brute force monster that's just like oh i will fight your entire enemy army yeah and i am basically unkillable incredibly yeah i mean both corn z inch or even in slaves with the host of them shows yeah amazing i mean there's so many z inch you can stack i believe you can stack the four up ignore spells one his base one from z inch uh you still got the activation tricks double activated corn easy two up re-rolling save you can still do stacking to offset wren so he'll be out of two up a lot of the times often re-rolling saves and and damage output has gone up i mean it's just like across the board uh 3d3 heal i think is what you can do on him now i'm easy 2d3 heal but i believe corn can do 3d3 heal i'm not sure about slave to darkness but anyway yeah it's just wild what you can do with this guy now yeah yeah i agree like slaves came out great like great really good now by the way the fact we didn't even mention it but bellicor went down 20 points oh my god i didn't know like in what universe what oh god he did well he did he's even better now uh like he wasn't he was like he's so good he was a game winner on his own and now he's even cheaper so yeah uh i mean we might as well lean into flaming weapons bellicor there you go if he can take the spells if he can take a lure if you need characters end up being gonna take a lure sure you're sure you're having a new work yeah you know just like most of the by the way there's there's another there's like there's so much to talk about this army it's crazy how good this is i should also point out here that the kitty cat went down five kitty cat is a monster so kitty cat can roar uh kitty cat can mortar wound impact kitty cat can do work and kitty cat still makes you fight last and kitty cat has a neg to a massive neg to the bravery aura if he if kitty cat is rolling around with archion oh yeah there are significant like crushing bravery penalties okay and like stack arcane bolts like yeah arcane bolt at start of the battle shock phase on top of that whip them off yeah neg for bravery is uh good it's super good in a world where you can only make one person one one unit battle shock immune with command ability uh kitty cat is solid i've been repping that mind stealer sphinx since it released and cat llama is where it's at uh love it love me the cat llama the one thing we haven't mentioned yet that we should absolutely talk about idolaters oh they're in now is their time ride forth chariot lord all of the chariots got cheaper the basic chariot went down 15 the gorby's chariot went down 130 you use that as your frame to make an idolator lord okay that's what turns into your idolator lord the idolator lord is a priest that has bonuses and idolaters to cast you have base prayers now you the problem one of the big problems the dollars was you didn't have artifacts do you do now right so like slaves just is all over the place here let's just move to this because i've got my fun meme here where i've got the idolator lord leading his army to war as we can clearly see in this colorized recreation artist's rendition of what it looks like and what it feels like to play idolaters now uh yeah idolar songs the way up chariots in general have a lot of potential cast warriors can be an incredibly strong anvil and this has the tools to take advantage of all the new rules on the relative cheap with great bonuses especially corn i would point out the corn aura is re-roll hit rolls of one and plus one to wound which is the combination of maybe like two of the greatest bonuses in the world in the new setting yeah because then you're uh then you're a command ability spark away from plus one to hit plus one to win re-roll once so one question i got from one of the local guys travis he's been running nights at the empty throne baron guard would they count as two models each yes and then if you take a unit of six cast metamorphosis to turn them into monsters do you then get the five models each bonus i don't know yeah that's kind of a weird a weird edge case one yeah i mean they certainly count as two models each of the normals because they're right that's sure yeah that's true yeah i can answer the first part here what happens when you make that unit gain the monster gain the monster keyboard do they become five each maybe i think they're going yeah that's an evidence of fact he also noted cabalist are getting better and that was another one i heard tub's talking about on age of age in the gas show yeah you know cogs uh what cabalist is getting a plus one cast plus two cast thank you plus one to plus three depending on how many three that's right yeah yeah so two cast each with cogs potentially uh although i think cogs might be cast on a five so it's not necessarily always going to be up at all times because you know you can now dispel in both hero phases thank god to try to turn off some of these things so yeah try to dispel it in the enemy hero phase that way they can't use it that phase but yeah nope lost him again uh yeah man i don't you know where does uh we could talk for 20 minutes about sleep to darkness i really think this army is so much better i mean they were gonna do shows by the way where we deep dive into everything like we'll do yeah revisited revisited we're gonna we're gonna revisit all the factions in in gloria's detail in the coming months don't worry yeah as i'm sure will like coach you'll be doing that as well i'm sure and like the content will be out there welcome back again jordan no it's iron golem's real saves anything with real saves in this game now i mean in general but yeah especially now they're like iron golems are so good in the new world again yeah like they went up five point in ravagers where you can just start summoning on iron golems right you got more cp and ravagers now so you're doing more than just summoning yeah furies are interesting again a leash hell trying to shut down the leash hell yep um yeah that's a really good chat with with the springs jordan any other thoughts we were just saying we could talk forever best lives of darkness i mean i really think this army is is going to be really strong yeah i so much so much here right yeah you guys said like an arty on obviously being a centerpiece is like he's arty on he can do it he can do it all yeah you can just hit your pony to that one model and you'll be good yeah yeah yeah it's absolutely true uh so some questions in the chat i saw somebody say uh uh dismay does does these increased points across the board make it easier to get to an army yeah a little bit i think so um i think that i hate the new enhancement rules in general i think they're uh poorly written and confusing as i'll get out and we have like 80 million f aq's waiting on them it's the only part of the rewritten rules i don't like i think sections like one through 25 are basically pure gold with not that many big issues and then i think they got to enhancements they just they just it's there's so many things that were like well if you can do this and if the f aq comes up this way and wait do i do i do i get my spell automatically and then have to pick another one do i get another one for free how does it work like where do i get the pick it's so confusing to try to explain to a new player like it's an utter nightmare uh i i just feel like the entire enhancement section honestly legit needs to be rewritten it's it's not good yeah and otherwise just platinumly good release uh it is the one sort of scratch it's it's beautiful diamond with this big inclusion or inclusion sorry coming in yeah and then at said lancer swords for knights always lances some people will tell you that you should have swords because you can grind better those people are wrong and uh and you either win or you die like you charge and you win that's what you do okay that's how we win in this in this world playing a lot against legion of the first prince by the way we haven't mentioned that yet that's a solid sub faction i think very strong yeah i mean like so much is yeah there's just like we've named every sub faction and said it's got game by the way we didn't even talk about the corn demon prince and how he didn't go up at all it has like the best commandability game and just spoilers also has game because it could block line of sight all over the place for shooting yeah so it's just like yeah it's it's all over the place so many tools yes yeah uh i am stoked for my slaves to darkness army is looking better and better so that's good i'm excited about it uh all right cool beans well gentlemen it had to happen it's been a good run here we are uh slanesh never has an army been more meta i hope you like pain um so slanesh and his new book which came out at the same time as doc and then was insulted by having points costs that were so far out of the bounds of what like you look at doc you look at slanesh never has there been a more clear uh reflection of of inequity and so we all thought oh don't worry it's fine slanesh is just pointed for three dot oh yeah good to go good to go everybody else is going to be hitting their points increases and be angry and we'll be sailing in and in this new world we'll be okay narrator they were not okay um i think like the most obvious illustration is just looking at bliss bar of archers growing up 20 points from 160 to 180 yes when saddinals who should have been 160 to begin with are only 150 right right right uh let's talk positive okay positive stuff here we go we're gonna be positive for a moment the hell striders went down i'm legit happy about this they were vastly overpriced at 150 i think hell striders are great they're fast they're good uh like chargers to absorb an unleash hell they're good chaff they're on like you know nice long cavalry bases they're still in fives they can spread out i really think they're excellent chaff because they are very fast do you go spears or hell scourges it's completely irrelevant it does not matter okay but traditionally like hell scourges are better because they have a three inch reach and can cause a negative to hit on the charge right so like you know that's good um but but literally i do not care you could take either one you want um they're they're mostly there to die mostly okay um so that is a positive like i was honestly legit happy to see these guys come down on points okay um they uh the seeker's coming down 10 is interesting they probably need to come down a little more since they can't fill any kind of battle line role but i think seekers are interesting i think they're kind of underused and again they actually can do quite a lot of attacks can trigger quite a lot of things now they they can't you can't do 20 blocks of them anymore basically they now cap it 10 um but they're okay they're okay um everything else is bad yeah this army is paying the sins of its summoning i wish can i just have crappy summoning please i'd like to actually play the army that i'm paying for not the potential future army that i might summon onto the table assuming i don't just get my teeth kicked completely in yeah okay when every one of my units is made of paper against any force with teeth you just get exploded yeah now there are fundamental things in the game that change that are positive or so much like more msu is generally good because it's more chances to harvest more depravity from more units true true statement okay but ultimately this army is costed as though you're just summoning in 400 points every round that's why it's costed like this and look i'm not gonna say that's impossible it is entirely possible that you summon in 30 daemonettes or a key for a secrets every round are those things actually worth 400 points no no they are not not in any world or way or shape or form or universe it is simply not true okay uh like glutos going up to four this army contains two out of the three highest single model point increases oh yeah okay in shellaxi and the keeper yeah the uh doc warband is the third well yeah i like i'm not like the warband oh sure because there's two more bands shot up a similarly crazy amount right but again those were like i'm not the warbands are silly that's why i said sure model right or a single true single units right catch it like the the more great than the and the one of the other is the eyes of the nine which both of which were like weirdly yeah like whatever nobody thought more great than 80 was the correct points right um i mean she'll actually add for i mean 310 i had no interest in playing her i ran right now she's 405 we better be getting a massive war scroll rewrite on her you're out of your mind for her at 405 get out of here okay uh that is insane to me insane um um this army got the points increase that i think all armies should have got across the board like this hits the average is a 15 percent increase basically right if everybody else in the game had went up this kind of amount if this was where the average is i'd be like well that's a shame it still probably wasn't due because we were overcosted but okay you know like i'd be fine but this army like does it have some potential play sure sure absolutely can you win games yes points aren't everything it's not a foregone conclusion you lose like i've seen people talking about twin souls who only went up 15 and have a two inch reach they can reach over their own bases which is nice so you can like they actually fit fairly nicely in the new coherency rules so good stuff um you know as i mentioned helsriders like some of the seeker blade like the blade bringers on chariots are still okay and most of them are heroes that are under the the caps they can all still get like lookouts or and stuff like that they fit into the the sub leader section very easily which is nice you know they're all they're all good sort of functioning in that role dexessa and senessa are fine it's hilarious to me again that the ten one was more expensive than the nine one one that is comical the nine one one is like way better definitely but okay sure um i mean you take dexess like as you're trying to get a bonus command point every round that's what she's there for that's what she does she gives you a bonus command point every round so cool um so like you know whatever it can this army still play yes will you still summon potentially a lot of stuff yeah probably like if you were just looking at the points you could say yeah over the game i summon 1200 points yeah like that is a pretty modal outcome of playing this army okay but you might summon 1200 points and still easily lose did you have that much summoning in your games you got a lot of games then i did you know i've played a lot of games with senesh sense yeah was it was it not generally that much i've heard somebody say that you always either end up at eight or 12 depravity after the first round and i tend to agree with that number my experiences are very similar yeah i think maybe list labs i think smorgan might have said that that you always end up at either eight or 12 i don't remember um and like that has proven pretty true to me you know keep in mind i ran pretty offensive builds because i was trying to win the game not depravity farm sure yeah so like if i hit units i tended to kill units and killing units doesn't get me anything right like i ran so that like part of the things that happened to me here and i have to admit this like i think this army can still play i'm just gonna go to my summation because whatever okay i've got the stop stop he's already dead meme on this of course because there was no choice i mean sonesh is already overpriced and many units are just comical um it is hilarious to me that a keeper of secrets and lord croak are basically the same price that is a good joke okay i don't know what universe you look at those two scrolls and go yep these are basically the same keeper got worse he can only do his command once and of course he can't even do it to himself way worse it's shockingly worse like their average damage like look look folks their average damage is seven it's so sad the keeper of secrets average damage is seven now can they sometimes spike off and you do like a bunch of mortal wounds because you got one extra on the hit with the claws and then you pop two sixes sure that can happen like yeah that is possible i'm not banking a battle plan on that right like yeah it can happen but like the way you play this army now is in this very finesse very like careful playing a bunch of wounds off a bunch of units style that folds instantly against death by the way just pointing that out that you've actually accomplished nothing doing that against most death armies yeah and the uh you have to just sort of finesse it and play towards summoning like that's what you do like that is the path to victory for this army that's it it has one play style a sort of extremely finesse stay away engage as little as possible plink as many wounds as you can fight only where absolutely necessary summon summon summon and try to then overwhelm them yeah i'm saying and like that sounds terrible and not the like i got into slanette because i wanted to take keepers of secrets that went over and smashed because they're a super cool elegant beautiful terrifying demon that is meant to go over there and like they're supposed to be these paragons of combat right that like match bloodthirsters pound for pound and which i mean that's i'm not saying much um given what bloodthirsters are but they need to be rewritten too um like if the keeper i would love to see a keeper rewritten to be 420 points i want the keeper to be 420 points that's the correct point value for all greater demons is around 400 points the problem is they need scrolls that match that yeah like greater demons shouldn't be cheap uh shouldn't be like cheap stuff that you're like going oh am i taking the lord on karkidrack or the greater demon sure that's not that's not how this choice should go yeah jordan do you have any thoughts on slanesh or i'm just honestly i i was thinking when when the new line came out with all the new mortal stuff i was like so into them i love all the new models new design i was like i'm gonna start this army and every couple months that just my desire to start that army just goes down and down down yeah which is unfortunate right like at the end of the day we all want to play with cool toys and have fun doing cool things and it's just sad to see a beautiful army range especially with new models and and stuff continue to suffer unfortunately um you know door wise whether it's relevant or not like yeah yeah i don't i don't know i i guess the only thing i'd i'd be curious of uh i guess you you both play with slanesh is like characters like sigvald and you know some of the others didn't see much change do you see much opportunity and kind of going a different route with some of them yeah i think sigvald's got play because he's got that built-in plus three to charge you can take him in lurid haze he is very tough now lurid haze has a built-in plus one to save command ability and there's also the plus one command ability that's generic in the game so you actually can take two units and give him plus one to save in lurid haze because it's two different command abilities obviously um or you could even single stack it if you were really trying if you were up against like crazy rend right um lurid haze lets you ambush so siggy can come in pretty effectively like he's he's legit tough now and he heals himself very easily uh i think he's a right spot he's still probably slightly overcosted at 265 for an honest answer he should probably be more like 240 um i really do believe that like he's just he is still just a six wound dude you know like it's easy to have a couple of rolls go bad and he just drops dead yeah i agree he's definitely playable particularly grading on the curve of this of this list but yeah the curve of this army he's an a plus uh this is like this is like when you're in a class where everybody flunked the test and you got a c and suddenly you're a rock star on that curve right i'd say the mask is up there with him like i would start with if i'm writing a list i would start with sigmold and the mask as my first two heroes and helstriders like it's sigmold helstriders helstriders um probably one of the blade bringer uh chariot lords i was thinking yeah blade bringer exalted like you know i don't know if gludos is still worth or not maybe as 475 is a lot for him yeah but he's a he's a good centerpiece you know like you want to start with a keeper on the table but it's really hard to start with a keeper on the table now so you kind of just have to summon keepers and you wouldn't get that much yeah i can't see a keeper in a list yeah i'd be tempted by samessa as a fourth hero sure you're probably gonna take one or both of the twins honestly instead of any instead of any keeper secrets which is great that i have six keepers of secrets i'm very excited yeah but yeah i i mean i don't know i haven't really heard a good explanation of what what happened with this i know every playtester that i've heard talk about this they're like you know they they all we all know this was a complete screw up but i mean we don't have to get into it i mean everybody knows this was a screw up i i just wish they would gut the entire summoning and and and replace it with something weaker like legit yeah because it's we're having to balance this entire army around a really swingy powerful summoning mechanic and it's just it's never going to be where you want it to be if you actually just want to play the army not also play that army and the phantom army you might summon yeah right yeah yeah and i've like a friend try this he sent me one of our local guys a weird list you know leaning into the the summoning of like grand and clean one and some archers and it's just all this all this craziness that you could do but i mean that's not silanesh in my mind like you're playing a little mini game to try to get some it yeah it's just you can play you can play the little depravity mini game or you can build for like really i think that this army can be competitive and the way to play is this as i said very cagey finesse style play that maxes uh you know the sort of maxes um uh depravity farming yeah right and summons and summons and summons and just like starts dropping 30 blocks of daemonettes on the table over and over and over again so you're just kind of swarming right yep yep that sounds pretty oh okay it's just not it's not the style i want to play if it appeals to you i'm excited that this army now works for you but you know it's a sure so yeah death death all right boys we got 30 we got 30 minutes to hit our limit i know and my friend death i mean we will move quicker now because it's not actually a lot of death yeah we got the two big uh grand lancestot yeah absolutely okay so flesh eater courts only went up three percent on average um like still a potent threat though the fundamentals have shifted against them so this is another one of those armies like the gather the the gulking on terrageist you know went up 25 points okay whatever who cares yeah you know um like the the this army none of this stuff right on this page matters it just doesn't matter it's fine it barely moved in any meaningful way it's the fundamentals they are a super hard hitting melee army but right they had lower than average points increases but they are going to suffer due to the core changes lack of multiple triggered abilities on the gulking on terrageist the single command ability during the phase redeploy unleash hell coherency on their 50 millimeter infant heavy infantry that was all one inch reach right like like the list of fundamentals that turned against them is long yeah i'm pretty worried about this army i think isn't your brother playing this army oh yeah and i've played a bunch too yeah it's actually that thinking it's like you can pile in an attack twice with one unit like don't give we all know you know two years ago fat was dominant with with their abilities but like you know the past year they've you know been had you know a couple of good runs here and there but largely they just can't compete in the new meta for the current meta so to see these hits directly you know hurt them is is yeah like you said it's concerning for sure yeah both these guys and slanesh which is ironic because they basically came out right around the same time right yeah had the command abilities that you wanted to use multiple times the combat phase across multiple units right not like an idk style you know spin it to win it right it was a this unit does it and this unit does it and this unit does it and you would usually build your command points for that moment when you needed to push right and that just got shut off yeah uh smash bat still good he didn't really need command abilities most of his stuff was non-command ability bonuses honestly and uh now we can give himself like you know stuff so he's good he's fine yeah i think as it lasts sorry as it lasts like this is again prototypical last cannon army i just feel like they're not gonna have the output that they need anymore sure and they're not yeah they're not really moving the needle in terms of the save stacking because they're at a base what four up for five most of stuff yeah yeah so that's that's not getting the job done i don't think there's a lot of mortal wound ignoring either uh yeah i i think they've probably gone down quite a bit in some of the fundamentals yeah it's just it's like the points didn't matter fundamentals have turned against them it's going to be a rough road yeah so yeah well maybe we're going to get that so what what what's the name of their their main dudes well the the the gash the karyan king karyan king yeah i'm ever going to get a karyan king in a new book here this year we'll see uh night haunt uh the ghosts likely need some help to truly compete uh night haunt you know they're they're didn't really see a lot of points increases the most notable one would be the 20 point increase on hex rates because that's a big increase on a unit that was 130 and could tend to show up in multiples yeah most of us is pretty nominal so that are also being impacted by the one inch reach or the the reinforced units yep yep concurrency yeah hugely they have like four units on 32s with one inch reach that right let's just drop off yeah chain rasp now max size 30 chain rest max size 30 yep sort of table down a little here yeah because i i played two by 40 a few weekends ago in the ricanors new sub faction and they were yeah pretty spicy but if you're you know now if you're only having to chew through 30 of them versus 40 that's going to be harder to to have them alive but uh what they don't have any monsters really they've got a mourn goal so they're not really basically that yeah we don't even know what the just like legitimately we don't know the disposition of any of the the four troll monsters right i mean they might they might not who knows yeah yeah definitely this army needs a new book needs to to be to reflect 3.0 yeah a lot of the fundamentals are so out of date now yeah yeah i mean they have good rules like helpful things positive things a lot of their they have some good rules that they got replaced in broken realms so that's going to help right they they got sort of battalion things pulled into sort of sub faction rules which is great you mentioned already the right norwin bits yeah so on and so forth right yeah we're all i think really hurts but you know ethereal is still solid right people start pushing rend to punch through armor ethereal you make people overpay for that stuff um the they do have a lack of basically any monsters which sucks especially in the new world and and they don't really have power projection right right right yeah gosh i'm not sure yeah like i mean they you know the benefit from the bodyguards that's nice to keep a lender on the boards that's going to help them out keep a i don't know if i can remember right nor is benefit from the bodyguard as well or not i mean cogs might help them a little bit the double cast they've they've got some some decent spells but uh yeah like i said i played a couple of games against them and they are just really feeling the two that the 2018 us of them yeah and yeah uh i'm not sure what all yeah i just feels like we're need facts or book yeah to really reassess this army and maybe some new units yeah in terms of they're going to get an expansion of anything but uh real quick hi it's grift said is there an app or a website that i can list build with with the new points i don't do it by hand yes war scroll builder will be updated once the like i already know it's in process there he was tweeting about it but it's like technically this isn't out yet right like technically this all doesn't release until the third we just have all this stuff real early but yes they there will be an app that you can hear that war scroll building i i've heard a lot of interest in the dread side heritance i don't i don't know the details they went down like they went back down a little bit and points but like yeah i may have to pull the worst scroll but i think it was jim uh james tensedel maybe somebody else who was talking about them saying that he thought that they were going to be a little more interesting now yeah we we did see that the i think the minimum size went up on the blade guys to end the heritance so it's not minimum 10 so that helps reinforce a little bit that's good yeah i'm sus i'm sus yeah i agree yeah it's a tough one yeah i i i i i think if you're a really really great night home player you can probably weather this and figure out some good ways to go here i think the new broken realm stuff helps but but it's definitely like you're you're on the uphill not the downhill yeah yep a siarck bone reapers uh one of the reasons death is so interesting because the point changes had almost nothing to do with this faction like the entire alliance i should say largely untouched and the control and nutrition strategy remains viable they need a giant f a q i mean they only went up an average of 0.38 percent so you know they had a lot of drops like catacos went down 30 points uh you know arch cabalos zen didos whatever his name is went down 15 most of stuff is pretty nominal increases like the crawler went up 15 still one of the best shooting units in the game like yes negosh shot way up don't tell jordan that he won't believe you i don't i don't think i've watched a battle report where you've hit meaningfully with your crawlers the most success i've had is when i run one not okay when i ran three before less yeah so but yeah no so you i think the crawler is personally like drop in stock quite a bit in 3.0 just from the just from the um no rent on it and you you can just plus one save right so that that hugely hurts them not that they obviously still have other uses like the hero slain is amazing sure um and different things like that but i think it's like you'll see max one where you often saw two before sure would be my expectation but i mean love to see people do things that i don't think of so sure yeah for the most part i think these guys are fine like their style is their style it's you know they have this like control and nutrition strategy right like a move and hold and push and hold and push and hold and push and hold strategy it's basically how the army is sort of designed to play it's kind of phalanx style and you know like the big questions remain though the bone daddy impact here is is pretty straightforward what the heck is happening with this army and rdp versus command that's it like we just we need the faq most of the armies we could do this on and say yeah okay sure there's a couple little questions with the faq but we basically get the scope of how they're gonna play probably because i don't think the faq or new pdfs or whatever we get are going to be like complete rewrites of every war scroll in the faction i just don't believe it i think most of it's gonna be pretty minimal generally feeling maybe i'm wrong i'll be happy to be wrong if they just like ooh they go nuts right but i just i don't see it but this army is just like i don't know i don't even know what are we doing here the the only thing i was i'm sorry the only thing i was hoping now this is just like was wishful thinking but because they changed a lot of the unit sizes to match what's sold in a box i was hoping it was going to be min 20 on the more tax and we could yeah that would have been cool yeah nobody would have wanted to play against a unit of 60 more tax but right well the fact that you could would have been hilarious all right yeah the army ventures an example of your men too your archive harbingers archive got that minus two rent so they didn't move in points you know 190 i wonder if they might be a little more interesting to obr players sure i i'm really intrigued by the stalkers i'd be curious to talk to like melnik and mef and and you know those guys about what they think about the net crop with stalkers because they've also got that built in minus two rents i think it's like three attacks they've got ways to you know re-rolls yeah potentially interesting too because they're also counting as two models now right because they're five wind dudes i think their stalkers are four oh are they am i thinking of the other yeah the other guys are six yeah the more guys are six the the net crop lists are four oh there you go yeah you're right i'm sorry but i apologize but yeah i think they could be a little more saying um cool to see catacross go down a little bit yeah you're right they're four ones i apologize yeah but uh i feel like a lot of these armies like i'm not that familiar with the new endless spells in terms of the impact that they're gonna have on the game it seems like there's gonna be a number of endless spells they're gonna be quite good you know we haven't talked a whole lot about a whole lot about all that and the next week we're gonna get into the endless spells maybe we can try to hit some of these armies kind of after the fact but yeah i'm sure a number of armies are going to benefit from the number of those endless spells yeah the endless spells i think they're they're clearly rewriting all of those just when we saw the ghb and saw that they rewrote every endless spell that was in the core game so it would stand to reason that most armies endless spells are going to also get you know heavily touched right so yeah yeah i've never i death writers are the piece of this army that i've always been underwhelmed by when i've seen them in battle reports like i i get their function it's just the i don't know they just never seem to do enough of what one would want them to do is that i don't know if that's been your sense i agree with that in terms of my experience now it's yeah unless you're running them in like um uh not more respiratory in the old petrofax when rend then they have you know more of the output you would expect but yeah they end up just this army is just like more tech art is the core of this army they're the best unit in this art like you know in a lot of ways the one of the best battle lines in the game yeah and that's agreed they would absolutely be in my top five battle line list 100 percent yeah like they do what it says on the 10 exactly what they're supposed to do they're one of the greatest examples of like this army this unit is supposed to act like this it acts like that right and riverside yeah they they were already resilient they already healed well and you know um yeah the command ability is the again the biggest thing that shakes down yeah definitely yeah cool all right that's death like i said death is easy because we don't yeah fast all right destruction begin the symphony of therein okay so uh gloom spite gets and my comment here is someone in destruction had to get the short end of the stava stick and it was blue spikes yeah uh uh shoot is in stavas you know pretty significantly increased on points 20 points per unit and then losing their max discount as well now they can still go to 60s which is nice but keep in mind that the like again talking fundamentals you know they lost their plus one bravery for every 10 models so you know these big units are going to get real susceptible real fast right um when you look at some of their powerful hero monsters like the mangler squig he shot way up now you know so that's kind of a lot uh or the the um sorry the loon boss on mangler squig oh one of 30 yeah he had a big jump right um the you know the webspinner shaman didn't be made out a little better at only plus 15 which isn't too bad the squig heard going to minimum 12 and then also going up 20 points and hurts like it really does um because those used to be just an easy pickup for like six things to kind of run around and be just you know sort of chaff and crap in the way little objective crappers and things like that because they were so cheap at just sort of 70 points for those models so that's not the case anymore you know it's it's this army wasn't blowing the doors off of anything and again like there are some pretty fundamental things that turned against it and uh and I don't see anything here that helps Kevin Rand asked no soul like ravelords no because their points didn't change at all yeah they're they're really as printed soul like they're really good yeah I think I think I think their hands down the best in death oh so like yeah 100% right now I totally agree with that they're they're the free and clear death winners right now yeah yeah uh anyways so yeah I mean gloomspite is just like I again I'll just I'll jump to my my impact right and the question they they're just asking one fundamental question can lots of bodies still do the work in this meta even with all the things that are turned against them like their bravery and stuff like that they do have a wide range of units they have everything from large body count they they're multiple units able to reach 60 to monster heroes and some tricks the lack of ability though to stack debuffs anymore does hurt their standard play style and though the points impact was lower than average many are hitting them in the units that were repeat a lot so yeah it feels like a lot of so they're dealing with the hangovers that they were throughout 2020 I would say in particular like let it happen 2019 throughout 2020 which was spelled on era really impacted them yeah and now they're losing debuff stacking on the hit rolls which is enormous the yeah I don't know this just feels like another army that's desperate for a book and it's also thankfully yeah rumors are going to get an early one hopefully along with the new spider kit so we'll we'll see if that turns out to be true but yeah I like I don't know what this army looks like right now like can you lean heavily into the the tragos and they've gone down what are they right now 155 for the fell water 190 for the dank holds uh rock guts are I mean 145 for three of them that's a lot of wounds let's pull out the reward scroll I'm kind of curious I mean the answer is you're still not getting the weight out of them that's the problem yeah because they don't have the wound count to double to double count oh crap yeah they're only four wounds five say two attacks three threes minus two three damage I mean that's a good little profile there for three of them but hmm yeah I then that is correct j-wrap said they also have no priest for curse that is correct they do not have a priest oh right yeah so like it's yeah it's up like I'm not saying they're ruined they're not you know they're like again you can sell a lot of fun playing this army somebody asked us maus is maus of jorke like you know still something that has game it's not measured like maus of jorke was never competitive it was just awesome right like maus of jorke was always sweet because playing a lot of swigs was insane and sometimes you would get these weird explosive turns where you would just blow into people and fight them and murder them right yeah but but it was never competitive it was it has all of the problems that the normal army has too and it's a lot of murder protect them yeah they're magic they're weak to a lot of magic they're very susceptible to a lot of battle shock like you know it's like it's it's that kind of stuff hmm cursed yeah man if they did have a priest that's uh that's a good shot yeah I just I don't have a feel for this army I'm not that familiar with it one of my one of my people in my club plays gloom spike quite a lot and he runs he runs both mixes of either the large body count or the maus of jorke was the two he uses and you know it's always interesting like it's a fun army to play against honestly um so it's it's fine like I think for for somebody who's looking for fun games this is still one of the go-to armies if we're just talking like overall competitiveness yeah it's still probably in the low middle okay yeah Jordan do you guys have any guys locally that run this uh a couple but and and uh yeah one of our guys does but yeah it's like I think just the changes to the shooters and stab us like again a battle line getting hit in multiple ways not only in points um but yeah it's like it hurts them so you just rip effect to the rest of the army right yeah um so that's yeah it's it's unfortunate just they're they're they've always been like an army like stave into me right where they have such their high numbers have a lot of different you know tools and whatnot but they definitely aren't coming out as well as the rats in this one all right yeah get ally and some squigs to potentially turn off unleash hell for folks you know like iron jaws take some squiggies sure okay uh ogre maw tribes uh where is the beef here's the beef all right uh so there's there's there's some notable changes here um so ogres were basically right at the average point so I'll just say that okay uh and I think for the most parts they're fine the bcr side came out better than the gut busters as is ever the case okay like the frost lord on stone horn was a good deal of 400 he's still a good deal at 430 like again hold him up to the keeper of secrets and you're like yep it seems like a pretty obvious choice here you know um the the the thunder tusk people are maybe a little higher than they should have gone up whatever like that's you know you know it's to be discussed glutton's at six is interesting because on one hand it becomes one of the most interesting wound anvils in the game because they are a battle line ogre unit that you can take that you can multiply out to 18 which is 72 wounds and counts as 36 bodies on objectives wow okay on the other hand very that that glutton unit is never going to bring all of its beef to combat unless they like radically change their reach or something yeah right if they change those 780 points it isn't even even six is hard to control right now like to get more than four in right that's tough yeah exactly so like i don't know what to make of that i really don't like is it just this meat wall like are you just trying to win by a meat wall right we're like well i'm just gonna move all these dudes forward and assume that you can't and dps check you with 72 wounds right right is that suddenly what we're doing in a unit where i can just sort of sit it there and be like go ahead shift this sure right uh i got it play yeah i got it the iron guts going up 25 points really hurts the lead belger is going up 20 points is comical they went from min two to min four as well i should state now you know fine they're both in fours so they do still have the old coherency rule right um i would point out that you can as assuming they don't change the commandability on the tyrant you can make that those 18 gluttons actually immune to battle shock as well well it's gonna be yeah i was right yeah you can just smack them once and then make them immune to battle shock yeah that's great so like interesting so so so roar so basically you can ignore roar no they become you smack them once in the first year phase and then they're immune to battle shock for the rest of the game battle shock yeah right i mean roar never shuts off battle shock immunity it only shuts off the oh that's right roar is in the color phase right yeah gotcha okay but still the fact that you can just have like this massive ridiculous unit that just you know what's battle shock i don't know yeah it's interesting like it is it is a hard body's play but you know dps checks can work especially in a game with more msu with less sort of you know we've talked about a lot of things that hit the super damage yet there's no more like crazy explosive earthguard berserker max units the the gulking on terror geist went down and his potential damage right like some of the damage stuff in the game that was your scary melee threats did go down in damage right yeah that's true so like the overall damage of an average unit probably dropped pretty considerably like those glutton's might be able to just exist their way to victory base base five up save base five up save yeah okay yeah that's intriguing and obviously you could take the little thing to make some kickback mortals on their saves as well they're they're punchback gotcha little fisties they're little fisties mm-hmm yeah um i mean they my summation is sorry powerful monster heroes took a small hit but are primed to go to do well i mean the bcr side is just primed for success they went up in a little bit in points but they're so fundamentally strong in this edition there's a couple little things that don't stack on them anymore but for the most part they are lock stock ready to go rock right the glutton unit's interesting if on wheel day is just a dps check and body block people off they could very much use enough dates deal with the new coherency rules and the beast claw side seems to remain the winner right now but they are still a fundamentally strong army in an objective base game where every troop you guys counts is two and your monster dudes count is 10 you know you're still playing the very fundamental concept of the game well right yeah uh leadbelcher's they didn't think it used to be two min size two looks like they're min size four yeah leadbelcher used to be two therefore now yeah yeah i've never been impressed by them because they're not impressive yeah uh yetis of course we saw stewart mcgowan uh run the yeti list looks like they only got a 10 point increase that's interesting uh i'm not sure if they're two inch reach let's see uh frostborn and thundercats guys i can see them getting some play there's still a 55 point difference from the stone horns so yeah there might be a thing uh morphing pack going up 20 that's not that doesn't seem too bad again either again they're the old two four thing and they do count it like they they have their um they're already counting as two so like they're not benefiting from anything new they just count as what they always counted as sure yeah yeah still seems like monster trucks cam monster truck i mean yeah summation if you loved monster trucks get ready to go to go wild you're gonna be crushing cars no okay so the gluttons are just that one unit though that like is the prototypical example of hoping they fit change something with the base size yeah like if they gave them a two inch reach or something yeah we're on board suddenly that 18 glutton unit is looking crazy interesting yeah that's it's so funny how a simple change right could change everything around yeah yeah all right orc war clans so yes the swamp bogglers are also in this no i don't have them on the list because i need to be able to fit it on one page and their points aren't real anyways whatever it says in this book is wrong their real points will be in their book and it comes out later this month okay so let's talk about the fundamental stuff here one cragnos the end of empires down 65 points he's getting closer to what we originally guessed keep going uh so that's grace out on him he needs to get lost he's what i'm painting right now like literally the guy on my desk i'm about to start i primed him he's got a he's got a permanent rental in the dirt through zone he's gonna like the crazy thing about this guy he's supposed to obviously supposed to be the ultimate monster slayer yes and it's gonna be monsters roaring at him scaring him to death turning off his ability to get plus one to hit yeah he's gonna be hitting on threes yeah and just flubbing all the time uh or he's gonna be hitting on fours with minus one to hit sure there's a lot of monsters that might get minus one to hit sure yeah my first my first test with this guy was a complete disaster that's hilarious uh i mean overall the big the big news here is like gourd rack and the mega boss both had big points increases that were probably deserved because they are they are we mentioned the damage in the game going down oh not over there not in that realm the mega boss on mawcrush is still bringing that 30 to 40 damage around if he wants to he's still got that red neg three he's still bringing it like a truck baby he's so good beep uh here he comes re-roll wounds on the charge and clean the mount yep oh and you didn't eat iron fist to get all this free movement like you can still get the free move in your hero phase like it's it's there boys it's there like we got we got this uh so did it oh my god dude double cabbage all the way sure it's honestly like viable like legitimately viable sure i ran a list last night i mean they just steam roll luminous i mean i got i got the iron jaws double and but like it was it was a double war chaner weird knob double cabbage one with award one with real wounds and uh monastery rent and uh 10 brutes which were incredible i'm in love right now 10 brutes because you give it a two inch reach because they have a two inch reach yeah good to go uh plus one damage on there and then two by three pigs at army was awesome like it felt so good and it's probably going to get destroyed in a few weeks time but we'll see uh yeah uh yeah we don't know if any of these points are going to change they they could i i hope not i think all these will probably be set but um let's hope so yeah um uh like yeah this like i'm i'm in for iron jaws in the new edition it's the age of destruction bring it your old battle line so again things like we haven't talked about battle tactics there's like there's like a grand strategy that just keep all your battle line units alive it's like yep i can do that something or not keep all so i keep at least one alive like i can keep at least one alive that's no issue right and you know yeah like they're they still have the great fundamentals bonuses to damage easy like their bonuses to hit the making being able to throw a plus one save on piggies makes them even tougher and a better mobile anvil uh you could yeah going double double cabbage so you can you know double more crushers so one can be the offensive and one can be the defensive yeah it's a it's a great day it's a great day and in workland land oh one little dozen of brutes that that four inch i really felt it with the inability to run after you retreat now boy you you feel that in certain situations isn't that i feel that's such a great change for the game though yeah like personally and overall like from you know whether it's been negative for me i don't i don't even care like just right yeah that feels it's actually one of those great changes so i agree it's it's actually it makes things that have a wider move to retreat really impactful right so yeah yeah that's fine uh i heard people talking about the bone splitters that they were pretty high on them again that's an army like like get some of that familiar with bone splitters i know that they can shoot a lot they put a lot of wounds on the table yeah i mean there's still the same thing else where they didn't really change that much their points changes were pretty minimal you know they don't have any monsters but they are pretty good monster killers uh so you know which is good you do earn bonus victory points once around when you kill monsters in the if you're using the ghp battle pack so like being having things that are good at killing monsters is good especially in real worry you'll probably see a lot of monsters that's you know just being good at that is a free basically four or five victory points a game it's not nothing so yep yeah i think they're basically where they are i think they're sort of status quo ish right um but the the iron jaws i think are stocks oh god i'm so worried they're gonna take away uh smashing a bastion they're gonna take away money destroyers i let's let's let's all hope not we all again don't want do not want like when i heard that the the swamp bogglers were going to be part of a new war claims book i was like no no just give them a look get a lot of my book i don't want a book it's fine i'm good i know yeah it just feels like yeah go ahead yeah they should they should i feel like they'd leave most of the same right there's nothing that like jumps out in war clans that like right you know is dying for for changes or updates so yeah guys crossed look when it comes to the iron jaws phone it in just phone it in i'm asking you to take the day off be lazy reprint kappa copy paste it's your friend we need nothing i'm fine fine okay i'm over here i got a full beautiful meal in front of me i don't need you to start taking plates away i'm good the dishes in front of me look delicious let me eat them all right oops sorry uh so yeah war clans impact still a potent force now with even more options uh the it's already a strong army it is susceptible to some of the reaction command abilities like you know that's things like only shall and redeploy matter but we are like especially in iron jaws you are one of the still remain one of the faster armies in the game yeah the additional options of the cruel boys could be quite potent in big wall through like i haven't seen the stats on the i shoot a tree at you all right uh artillery but i have a feeling that's going to be potentially ending up in a lot of lists maybe some of the bolt boys the little shooters i can see those getting added in to add some ranged fire power into into you know maybe more iron jaws based lists right with folks could folks could go old school chris tomlin style with his brutes that he converted to hold crossbows yeah yeah yeah yeah um as i said here a great deal depends on how much change is in the new book but for now i'm saying stocks absolutely yeah i'm so intrigued to flip this is number one on the list right now for for my army like i want to yeah double cabbage like i just want i want to play 3.0 with a melee army and see how that feels for like a year a year plus and yeah just lean into it jordan anything else so much fun i know just exactly that like their their points again just summary relatively didn't change much and just so much upside with the new edition that like yeah they're they're looking good i think destruction as a whole is probably like the best you know grand alliance in terms of like overall how how they came out like a lot i think i think there's a lot to be excited about as a destruction player yeah i agree w soren said i asked for a copy paste before the war clan's book after the iron jaws change in ghp 2019 and that's true i did because i was like this is so good how can it get any better and then they made the book and i was like oh my god it got better i didn't think it was possible so like now i just i don't i believe we've hit some kind of cap i just don't think you can make this army better for what i want like it is exactly the army i want stop please stop leave me something here i guess there is still something boom sons of behemoth get hype folks folks let's talk about them stonks this is the stonks right here this is where it's at i got my first game with giants in nice they're insane they are sweet yeah oh yeah this is where it's at the fact that you can just run four megas now because everything in the army's battle line easiest grand strategy completion in the world table four objectives complete my grand strategy four objectives four megas you're good to go i am all monsters so like all the ghp battle tactics i score extra points on just give me all them extra points i only have four units in my thing so yeah you can only like earn your four victory points enjoy them i'm gonna earn all mine so you better bring me down you better table me uh the fact that i like oh my god the stonks i don't even know where to go with this first of all this army didn't change all in points ways because it can't like yeah the gate breaker went up to 525 but the war stompa and the man crusher both went down 10 it basically evens out the same you have more or less the same choices you did always so whatever yeah yeah uh this is the only time i made a meme myself i i made this okay like all these other beams i stole but this one i made nice so this is uh obviously uh from from uh uh falcon and the winter soldier right no and uh getting losers we're going stomping and boy oh boy is it true like i played this army here there's a couple little notes i want to make the the value of baby giants went way down because baby giants don't have a champion oh yeah wow so they can still like roar at people and do extra mortal wounds and man is it great like oftentimes i just had them picking the mortal wound impact hit because i would like i would just charge them in three dice two ups yep got all those and then i'll throw an extra on top so it's like 43 mortal wounds chuck a chuck a chuck a boom and then i activate them and now i grab three people and kill them instantly i had my cabbage the other night i'm like double double check that nonsense are you sure that's how that works it is how that works yeah and so like you can before you've actually swung a weapon against like you know kind of massive dudes you've already done 43 plus three effectively plus three models dead worth of work that's quite a lot of work before you ever swung a weapon and babies always were pretty offensive right right so like that's great they were they were just clean and clocks left and right when i was there um three of them i now i was running stomp a tribe because i generally like running stomp a tribe for the bonus damage i charged three of them into a pack of 30 dryads then there were no more dryads um they all went bye bye sounds right yeah so it's just like three damage club hits when you make 30 attacks is yeah pretty good um the the addition of like their powerful hero monster battle lines they play the objective game better than anybody they can do more damage thanks to command abilities they have flaming weapon as a potential now on their heroes and you know if you take the the bookie book or the little dangler eye uh your piece the addition of the five up word to the game has no bigger impact on this army right like you could just take your kraken eater general give him either the neg one to hit or the plus five wounds and the five up save and call it a day right there and you have got like a real hard to bring down dude yeah right yeah 100 that's walking around counting as 30 models on an objective right uh this like stomps okay i don't know how else to say it this army is so much fun to play but i think i want to run it now as three megas and three babies like three as a unit of three babies what what three megas uh i've actually been looking at going back to to um to take her tribe i'm still kind of messing around with my list okay um just because the problem with stomp a tribe in the new edition is your actual stomp a general can't use um can't use command abilities he can't use the generic command abilities he can only use his own so he's shut off from all that now you can your other giants can use command abilities like normal right but you've got to have like babysitters walking around effectively because he can only use whatever i'm going to play around with a couple different builds it'll either end up being uh take a tribe or or i'm going to replay through all of them because breakers is the problem with breakers is like breakers are very expensive now you can't spam breakers sure but i've always actually liked war stomp us i think people undervalue them you just have to use them very carefully the thing i love about stomp a tribe is it has the charge three six command trade oh yeah that's good and that command trade is so good it's so stupid good to just fling him into something um so i might honestly try like stomp a tribe with just a pack of three babies and they're the only ones getting their actual bonus and who cares right and then there's just kind of two independent megas running around like maybe i've got to see how the points work out yeah got sure nice there's the options right now with the battle line change like yeah you can do so flexible so many options yeah i think that was a great change for the book yeah definitely uh i'll reach out to peter atkinson plastic rake he's been writing some great articles on goon hammer obviously he's been running sons and yeah i asked him you know what he would take to tournament right now he said uh triple kraken and a gate breaker with a gate breaker with the five up wards sure and yeah it's like yeah that sounds pretty good but yeah these guys is they can't really fit in any of the battalions basically sure you can take the unified battalion with like one mega and then your uh your baby or like i forget how to uh yeah your one mega and your like three baby units can drop in the basic troops so you can't fulfill that one but then all that does is like further lower your drops it's not nothing right but which is fine it you're already a pretty low drop army so it's something but you can't there's basically no way to get any of the additional uh artifacts in here sure which right yeah but yeah they're just firing on cylinders as tom would say oh this is 100 gas in the tank yeah uh they have got gas in the tank they got money in the bank uh yeah i was i played a year against well i played a lot against the kraken eaters and they would always underwell me in combat just where they hit like feathers in combat yeah and now nope no longer one took out a cabbage in one shot sure hold it fully healed yeah because he turned off my ability to stack saves see he roared got scared and yeah roar give himself plus one to hit do the dirty business and the advantage to having three big the three big boys is that's three rounds of having your best day ever with your hero and giving them plus one to save and plus one to wound and then roaring in and then giving them plus one to hit and it's like well who's ready to die these guys honestly i i think sons are going to be one of the big bads of the you know next few months yeah like they they have so so much upside and yeah it's in some ways this this reminds me it's like the addendum to the sons of behemoth book events that you complained about rightfully and that show you did where you find you know like they've given you the outputs and and some of these things that you you were calling for finally i didn't know it suddenly was apparently there's somebody was said like don't worry this is going to be kind of weak for now but in three more right the world will change i'm a patient man um ten art studio just answers question um i had a work meeting so i missed this but i saw some of the cast stuff mentioned that you can still take archion with things like blades or singe how does that work i thought the new match play rules limited you it did uh it does i should say it's not that it did it does those the match play rules do limit you accordingly however in the ghp they explained that there are these things called coalition units which is just a weird new thing that exists that they don't really explain in the pages we've seen but there will that will be explained in the pdf because you will have the ability to take certain things as coalition units and the example they give is like taking chaos warriors or stuff like that basically it'll probably still be keyword aligned the trick is when you take that stuff it does not count as your battle line anymore ouch so you cannot take like marauders and slanesh and count them as your battle and you can just take them and that's fine they fit they don't break your allegiance abilities they can still um you know benefit from stuff but um but they uh but they do not count as battle line they do still count as artillery behemoths or leaders accordingly as whatever they are so get in losers we're going okay uh final thoughts uh so i'll give mine and then i want you guys to go through and give yours so overall everyone went up but i am not sure the right things went up by the right amount we've hit that note so many times right like it's just we're like it's good that everything went up i like that i wanted more go up but i wanted more go up on the right things and that's not what i'm sure we hit they weren't large enough but they weren't distributed in the way that i would expect for the real sins the things that are causing the game to like we know what's breaking the curve hit those things the things that don't get played hit less i you know there you go there's some there's just some headscrappers out here and i'm not sure we fully capitalized on the opportunity we had here because ultimately this is the chance you can't just put out a random ghp and shoot everybody's points up 20 percent people would riot because they wouldn't expect it at an addition change they say hey guess what everything's gonna change and you're like okay cool that's what i thought right and so a lot still depends on part three the f aq day one pdfs that we have yet to see so jordan what's your what's your thoughts buddy what's what's your overall final thoughts first things first i'm so excited for the game right now it's so much fun playing s3 and the new changes they're great a lot of great like just health of the game changes that they made um which and and you know the heroic actions and monstrous uh things like those are all like you know really cool interesting things and there's you know more more kind of participation in through throughout the game on both players turns so all that stuff i'm super happy like it's static with so you know aos again is in a great spot super happy with it but yeah like you said there are a few things that you kind of have to stretch your head about where they you know the direction they went with different things um yeah hopefully you know it really just i don't know i'm excited to the whole game is i feel like it's flipped on its head in terms of you know what the meta was and where we're going to be going forward just opens up it's just a refresh right it feels like yeah you know it's it's exciting to see you know the first couple tournaments and you know where things are and where our expectations are different than you know kind of what it what things that end up being and that's it's part of you know what i've always loved and the list building so it just i don't know i'm just so excited right now with it feels like a hard refresh for the game and especially you know on the up and up from coming out of a you know year where we weren't getting much games in or there weren't many events so yeah absolutely one quick note on that since we've all played some 3.0 games have your games been faster they have mine have oddly enough yeah yeah it's because pylon isn't fiddly crap anymore and your units are smaller the actual like all these new decision points i printed out my game aid sheet i'm like my heroic actions this is round roll done okay good it takes five seconds once you've done it one time my monstrous actions are always obvious i need to roar that unit extra mortal wounds here done yeah right like that stuff doesn't actually add to time what added to time was big units moving and doing fiddly pylon nonsense my games have been like considerably noticeably faster yeah that's the quality of life stuff you're talking about right exactly it'll take a bit of time for everyone to like like think of the command abilities to remember which heroic actions are available like to do that intuitively sort of internalize that yeah that's why i said to print out that game aid sheet put it next to you right yeah so but you know a couple weeks couple months we'll all be flowing and yeah the game is gonna be faster yeah because i just be like okay start of the round that i gained my command point for my general i'll use my heroic at like if i didn't have anything else to do nobody to heal whatever i try to gain another command point oh four up yep got one of those and then i pick my battle tactic okay it's that one now let's go exactly i just went down my little list tyler what are you thinking yeah so uh when you guys i was we're talking i was just quickly doing a winners maybe fine and no all right let's start with a no piece of chaos blades of corn slainesh feck night hunt gets that's in my no category okay they'll be fine chara drawn seraphon and luminous i'm just banking that range damage is going to still be pretty good in this game still enough of crutch to carry along sure seems like a decent bet even you know if the baseline of rand is is going going up you know where you've got better saves etc maybe fire slayers silvaneth zinch nergal obr i would say in the in the they might be fine they're on the border yeah exactly yeah yeah i feel like i don't really have a great sense about them zinch definitely took quite a quite a hit obr obviously anyway we've talked about those yeah i put those on my maybe there's a bunch of winners which you know as like i said six out of ten at the start of this i feel like i need to bump that up a little bit you know as we've gone through it winners cities of sigmar doc idk scaven slaves of darkness soul blight mod tribes war clans uh both probably ij and bone splitters and suns i mean that's uh that's a pretty healthy winners list and then yeah quite a few in the maybe and then three yeah so i don't know yeah i'm like personally kind of reflecting on this four hours of what we've discussed these points in the end in terms of like my working sense of what the list might be like what factions can be competitive etc it's it's better than i thought going into this conversation yeah so yeah yeah yeah i'm but in general yeah i'm really excited for 3.0 it's a absolute quality of life improvement to the game and uh yeah just ready for those facts bring them on all right everybody we've been going for a while so we're going to call it a day right there we'll be back next week discussing even more good ghb stuff probably back to the normal time uh next week uh and uh uh don't forget to hit like if you liked the show or if you didn't like it it's okay still hit one of those buttons i prefer the like one but if you click any of those buttons it still increases the engagement so i appreciate it but please hit like subscribe if you haven't already thank you tyler jordan it was great to have you on brother this is a lot of fun definitely a pleasure you're welcome back anytime we will have you on again in the future i know you've got experience with a lot of armies so as i said once we get through all this third edition level setting it's going to be time to start grinding through the forces and i would love to have you back for one so 100 all right for all of you out there thank you so much for watching uh and uh if there's if uh if there's anything you felt we got wrong or you think we missed as a point please drop that in the comments after you hit like and subscribe thanks everybody have a great rest of your day we'll see you next wednesday hi