 Well, hello everyone Apologize for us being a little late to get started as I just said on what was formerly called Twitter We can kind of refer to prints that way too the Maybe it's to go to the machine, you know for spooky Halloween But you know, we're we're running a little late and apologies. So I'm Langa White This is a show called cube by example insider where we's every month Approximately we interview various people who are deeply involved in Kubernetes To kind of find out what they're seeing as what's going to be happening next throughout the project and the reason is as you know, kind of my long-running joke is You know, when you are talking about an open source project You can go and talk to people who are theoretically in charge of what's going to come out But because it's open source if a developer or contributor wants something else to come out as well Then they just show up on the weekends and do it anyway. So because it's open source There's a lot more flexibility. So if we go and talk to the people who are actually directly involved It gives us a little bit more of an insight into what will be coming soon And so I'd like to welcome a member of the release team Atarava and do you want to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. Thanks Langdon. Hello. I'm Atharavashinde. I'm from India I'm currently a senior year student of company engineering. I was the 1.28 Kubernetes announcements lead for the release team I've been involved in Kubernetes for a couple of years now Mostly I would say non-code contributions because everything the first time I saw Kubernetes it was just a It's it's the first time you see you hear about Kubernetes. It's just overwhelming, right? So So for me, it was a lot of thing at once. So I've been trying to Pave my path through non-code contributions and through somewhat code contributions right now. So Yeah, that's about me. We had a wonderful team in 1.2 it Which which was led by Grace Newman and The emeritus advisor was your nerd and a bunch of very Nice people leading each sub project of the release team. So yeah, that's basically about me So one of the things we like to ask is okay So what got you there in the first place like what got you into Kubernetes in the first place? Especially seeing as I don't know if you realize this but I'm actually a professor at Boston University And so I'm constantly trying to get my students involved in Containerization and Kubernetes and so I'm very very curious what what brought you to it such that you're still in school and working on the release team Yeah, so It starts with Basic background of me not getting into the top colleges and that's what Helped me realize that I should work myself into becoming a better developer to get a good job that was my initial motive but So finding my way through communities of open source There are a lot of good communities Which you can find online or even if you just search on YouTube or Google you could find a bunch of new Open source community so I got into them. I got to know about a bunch of open source projects including cloud native cloud native sub projects and one of the first One of the first or I would say one of the interesting projects that I could see That was Kubernetes and that's how I basically started as I just went into a couple of meetings without any prior Without any prior is study or any prior Knowledge about Kubernetes. I just joined. I still remember I joined us into the Sega Contrabex marketing team meeting and they were very Welcoming I just on the first day I know that they gave me some responsibilities to Inside the inside the sub project and I was like wow on the first day Even if I don't have any knowledge about communities I'm I'm going to work in communities and that was kind of very exciting and That kept me going through keep learning about what Kubernetes exactly is What are the different components of Kubernetes? How? How Kubernetes aligns with? Multiple big projects that needs to be scalable how microprocesses microservices works and That's how I got introduced to a couple of new sub projects inside communities like sick Contrabex as such and then test infrastructure testing and And I carved my way through what sub projects interest me Most there are a lot of sub projects to go through. So yeah, so let me interrupt you for just a second So we have another guest Rishi Who should be joining us any second? Hello Rishi, you know and you thank you for joining us really appreciate it And so I actually want to kind of turn around and essentially ask you the same question But first can you quickly kind of introduce yourself? sure Hello, I'm Russian and I'm really excited. I'm a student at the University of Toronto and I also work in industry I'm really excited about research and most of my work is around Researching math or researching machine learning So that's what I mainly do an industry and at the University of Toronto and Along the side I'm also excited about software, which is where I contributed to Kubernetes a bit Well mean machine learning without computers is a non trivial exercise, right? I mean, that's that's a lot of math You know on paper So, you know, I kind of jokingly refer to data sciences, you know stats with computers, right? But what I was just talking to thought about was like kind of what brought him to Kubernetes Like how and I'm a professor at Boston University And so I'm constantly trying to get my students to like get involved in containerization and Kubernetes So more stories like what brought you into it, right? Because I believe you're still also a university currently, right? Yeah So, how did you get involved in Kubernetes in the first place? Yeah, so So actually just finished my I actually just finished my high school Much one and a half year ago and I was in so at that time I was really excited about math and It was really fun too And at that time I was mainly working on the math Olympiad and then that kind of stuff So so I was really excited about that and and then when I came across computer science, it was Even more fun for me because I could actually apply stuff and that got me excited about the theoretical aspects of it But especially with Kubernetes, I I honestly just stumbled across the project and at the at the start I At the start I didn't know much about software in general, but I Saw a few things in the project. I think the first thing I saw was I was seeing how what Kubernetes is and how it is structured and I think the first thing I saw was at CD The way it should be does rough consensus That was one of the first things I saw and I thought oh well, this is That's an interesting way to do it That's an interesting way to manage your database and our thought of that and that turned into like a Nice moment for me and I saw some novel stuff starting out with so Yeah, I think that's what got me really excited And that's how I exclude more of communities to start So so for you you kind of came to the code first, right? Whereas I thought about it seems like you kind of came to the community first that is that accurate? And so Richard, how did you can how did you move from like the code right to the community? What was the what was the transition point or like what brought you into like, you know Into a position where you'd be working with like the release team Yeah, so Yeah, I think that I got to know a lot more about that when I came to KubeCon Europe This is the one in Valencia. So Is there another time I had some understanding of communities? I I had I had used it a bit I had contributed probably one or two things to the code, but I didn't really know about the community around it and And I guess that was on me. I never took the initiative to do that But yeah at KubeCon you I saw a lot of things. I heard about the release team for the first time. I got to know about About how active multiple six are how open everyone to talk about Contributions that just code is so Yeah, I think for me it is pretty much after KubeCon Europe that I got involved With the Kubernetes community Okay, sure. And so one of the other things I like to ask people is Was Kubernetes kind of both of you was it kind of your first experience that open source or were you involved in you know Was something else about open source interesting before that? So I can go first. You don't want to be dancer. Okay. Yeah, good Sure, so It wasn't my first experience with open source. I have been working on building quite a few open source projects myself And I had also been maintaining some projects earlier but mainly around But mainly around machine learning software and I was also very actively contributing to TensorFlow at that time Yeah, I'd also been maintaining some of my own open source projects Some of which have been popular. So I don't think it was like my first experience in open source Okay. So yeah, I mean, I saw I think you're giving a talk on PyTorch soon Right. Yeah, I had it. I had it like two weeks ago. Oh, okay. Yeah, sorry. We have red red dates So that's really cool Especially for you to get involved kind of so early on in the machine learning stuff. That's awesome What about you at Viva? Had you worked kind of an open source first or was it was Kubernetes your first kind of exposure to it? My first con open source Exposure was the internet archive open source project. It was Python So my first The first time I got into open source was into the internet archive sub project and I kind of Helped with some stuff around it and got involved into knowing the architecture of the internet archive Subproject better and after that I moved towards the cloud Native technologies and the first one was Kubernetes So it was just It was just a bold new experience for me. Yeah But kind of a natural evolution of what you've been kind of experiencing I hear so why don't we move on and talk a little bit about kind of, you know Your jobs on Kubernetes land, you know What are you kind of seeing that you think is going to be interesting in you know, or Obviously, you know, it'd be it'd be weird to say that anything about the next release of Kubernetes is going to be boring and uninteresting But what is the thing that you're most looking forward to? What is the thing that is most interesting for you? That you think would benefit the most people or whatever go ahead yeah, I think there's a there's a Really cool feature that still work in progress and it's about updating the in place pod resources and that would mean the allowing the allowing pod resources to be Created or updated on in place That means you don't have to recreate the policy in case of the resources are not enough and it's a long I Would say it's a long run Feature, but I'm very excited about that feature in general, but I would say that it's kind of the Kubernetes features are really very streamlined processes and that's why Every feature that you get into Kubernetes is very well-picked and there there's there would be no such Kubernetes Announcement that would you would say that no, it's it won't be of any use to you Any what I meant to say is there's there would know and there would be no release I think that would that would be like not good as previous one or the Or any previous releases. I would say the release process is streamland and that would help every feature to get their spotlight Yeah, and totally. I mean it, you know, that's kind of what I mean is like, you know, of course the You know, well, not only would it be kind of impolite to say that there's any particular part that is not interesting, right? but also, you know, I think, you know, honestly, I think most people find the releases to be generally useful and you know, there's general kind of You know expansion in the in what's happening and like how well it works Of course, but that doesn't mean you don't have like special favorites, right? That there's there's symbol there's things that for your own self, right that are going to be the most interesting What about you for for you receipt? Yeah, so so I think one of the features is looking forward to in the past was about CEL admission policies so that so that landed to beta in 1.28 and And and and they had Originally, it was launched a bit earlier. Now it just moved to beta and they have the common expression language that could that you can that you could use to do some kind of calculations or Manipulate some kind of data or evaluate some conditions. So so they And that was Quite nice, and I also started using it myself so Yeah, I think it was originally launched in 1.26 and now it just moved to beta And I had been using it Since 1.26. So Yeah On what the feature is I'm not sure I followed entirely what what it was you said the feature. Oh, yeah Sure, so so At least with communities you have These admission policies. So so what these admission policies allow you to do is Just define as well as in first policies in a cubanities cluster. So So there's no need to Or you could reduce the reliance on External admission controllers and just use these admission policies So what this feature allowed allowed you to do is or at least what admission policies earlier allowed you to do was you could define these policies using CEL which is like this common expression language and And and the API server itself would enforce these admission policies So So that was so that was about admission policies and And and they and they would like the CL based admission policies to beta And it and it was launched and I guess 1.26 as I was saying so So I personally use that quite a lot Myself so that is what I was really excited about in 1.28 and Yeah, it's a little bit closer to prime time as it were like it's almost it's almost ready for production Yeah, and I Guess we also use it in industry where I work So so I got to know about more about it. I'm got to use it in production. So Right. Yeah, that is interesting Cool So I was going to sidebar just for a minute because originally I'd really hoped that I was going to be actually able to wear a costume for this For this interview it is Halloween after all and so this was my proposal. I was going to share my Picture But it did not arrive in time so, you know, unfortunately, we will we will not be able to enjoy me as a Kubernetes right or as a, you know, pilot of a ship But this is totally what I had in mind and it just didn't quite materialize as you can see I already have the beard going so You know, like I said, I had a number of questions on the side primarily about what my plan was and just didn't quite work out But I do have a black shirt and I'm very badly backlit. So I kind of have that spookiness going for me today All right, so moving on from there. Do you have any costume ideas for are you planning on doing anything for Halloween? Your Halloween is not really kind of celebrated yet, so I don't really know It's kind of Yeah Maybe Richard knows Richard might have something up his sleeve So So yeah, it is really popular in Toronto. I Know a lot of my friends who have already started doing that kind of stuff and preparing for Halloween but But for me, it is Yeah, I don't I don't have I don't have any question ideas right now I just thought I was a release team member, you know And just you know, just t-shirt and shorts and you'll it'll look like you're a community's contributor I thought it was for Children or something is it not So, yeah, it's kind of it's kind of weird in the US There's there is little children and that is really probably primary target audience. However a lot of kind of late high school early And college and then even kind of right after college people will will party and In the partying usually involves costumes And so it's a little bit weird this year, right because it's a Tuesday But you know so like but in my neighborhood, you know over the weekend, you know There were a lot of people who were kind of, you know, let's say like 16 to 26 ish range Who I saw that were in full-on costumes You know either going to parties or going to bars or whatever So it can be kind of a big deal, but it's like it kind of misses a window typically in like from like call it 12 to 16 usually but then, you know, or actually even younger like 10 to 16 But you know, the younger kids are really the ones who are going around collecting candy primarily And then you have older ones who are mostly using it as a as a party event Yeah Yeah, yeah, it's kind of fun So yeah, that's that's I would say Halloween in the United States is, you know, largely like that You know, it kind of obviously varies by region People don't realize how big and different the US is a lot of the time And so saying saying anything is actually specific to any part of the US is probably false But long story short. Yeah, that's kind of the general sense so in fact, I have a class later today and My wife was absolutely convinced that a I should just cancel it and be that no one's gonna show up because it's Halloween And it's like I think the class is that starts at 3 30. So she's convinced that no one's gonna come So we'll see what happens Yeah Yeah, exactly exactly Actually Recovering Saying I also have a bunch of classes I have to attend today And I was expecting like most of the people in my school would probably show up and costumes to classes. Yeah Yeah, so so hopefully we'll see some of that that'll be entertaining And in fact my class today part part of the lecture is actually about containers. So that's kind of fun But uh, yeah, so all right, so moving on The the real kind of nature of the show right is about like kind of what's coming in Kubernetes So what are you foreseeing? You know in kind of the next version or the version after that or you know Somewhere down the line in the nearest future that you're most excited about to see Land that or that you're hoping or even contributing to seeing land going forward You know the the news for 1.28 Was the sidecar containers is official, right? So the this There's still a lot of work to be done and the sidecar containers The there are a lot of new features that are trying to get That are trying to get built and that they would probably be seen into the later few releases Maybe 1.30 31 onwards, but yeah, the sidecar containers features Would be the worth saying or worth keeping a watch on Gotcha. Yeah a lot of that You know sidecar containers kind of follow the model of you know aspect-oriented programming of which I've been expand for a very long time And you know, so I really like most the way that stuff works That's a that's a good one. What about you or shit? What do you think? Yeah, so I was particularly excited about So I was actually talking to someone and who told me about the current load balancer behavior in communities and I Had I had observed that myself. So I think there is a feature that has been on work since quite some why But as but I'm really excited to see that coming in the next Kubernetes releases. So Apparently what happens is And maybe you notice this as well if you use like any cloud provider where I work is also cloud provider So I'd like some of this often, but if you use like any of these cloud providers, they usually use the load balancers external IP and and This becomes a big problem because you have the you have the you have the Q proxy and You have the IPvS mode of the Q proxy Since the IP is bounded to like this load balancer external IP. So so there were different ways cloud providers used to solve this and or or they would just like Byposs the load balancer somewhere which wasn't ideal. So So I guess like there was one feature that aim to do that aim to like expose an option for For any count for any kind of controllers you have that manage the load balancer. So And and they allow you to and they allow you to choose how the Q proxy would behave. So I was really excited for that because you should do all kinds of hacks for these and It would be nice to see the future come into play nice nice Cool, so those are those are some good things to kind of watch out for One of the things I wanted to definitely ask you both was Can you tell me a little bit about what it means to be a release team shadow? Because that's another way to kind of get people more involved So I don't know whichever one of you would like to kind of maybe give a definition or like how you would get involved as a release team shadow Yeah, if you want to go first Rashida, you can go otherwise I can go Oh, should I go ahead? Yeah, okay, so So release shadow particularly means you would be following The steps of what the lead is supposed to do The respective lead so there are five subgroups right now. There's announcement subgroup. There's Buck triage and the ci signal. I think buck triage and ci signal is about to merge Into the letter releases and there's doc Subteam and there's release team subgroup Those there are so these are the subgroups basically and each subgroup has a lead assigned to them so The shadows on the the particular subgroup is responsible for following what the release process for that subgroup is So let's say as a point of view as I was the announcement lead So what the shadows would do is I would the shadows would reciprocate what what I was I was doing so I would delegate some tasks among the particular the shadows and they would They would follow them correctly or they would reiterate through them and they would Basically learn on how the particular subgroup release team works. So that's the basic motive of what the shadows do Yeah, and they and and eventually when they eventually After two or three experiences being a shadow you would you would be nominated as the lead and that's how you would Become the part of the leads leads and help in carrying out the release cycle to success. Yeah That's right. Rishi, do you have anything to add to that or would you say that was pretty complete? Yeah, I think that summarizes it And so were you both shadows in the past? Yeah Yes, I was a shadow on the dog steam in the past and on I was a shadow on the dog steam twice And and then I um and then in 1.28. I was lead on the dog steam Okay, and then and so would you recommend that as a path for like somebody who wants to kind of get involved in communities? Or do you think you like somebody should Kind of go do other stuff first and then come to kind of the shadow Kind of role or is the shadow role kind of a really good way to learn about communities in general? Yeah, I think um, so I think this would differ Okay, so I'd say what I think Um might be a nice way to do Word it depends on exactly what you want to do with the project and what you're interested in So first thing I guess I'd say is probably lead through Probably read through the rules and responsibilities and And what kind of work would you be doing if you were a shadow on each of these teams? Each of these teams do different work and and in general, it is a bit different than Being involved with uh, let's say a sig and Helping the sig with boxcrab or Helping the sig with making your features So something like that. It's a bit different than that. So I guess Yeah, I guess it all just depends on I'm checking out the roles and responsibilities see if you like that kind of stuff um and And if you are just excited about getting involved with the community, uh, I think there might be There might be some sort of positions, which Which you're interested in and would also allow you to do that. So, um, so I think in that Yeah, mainly just like see the roles and responsibilities And I personally went through the other routes. I contributed So so I contributed in six first and tried to contribute Myself and and then the gamer shadow And I thought it was really different. So it's like I guess mutually exclusive. You could also work on both at the same time What are you a driver? Uh, so the idea is same, but uh, I would say So as I said before the Kubernetes is a vast project and you would get lost behind what you want to uh, what your interest lies in so I have this, uh, this is this is my opinion. Um, If you want to learn about Kubernetes in general, uh, you should try applying to the Kubernetes release team So that's how you would get exposed to all the kinds of uh areas around Kubernetes because Kubernetes release team Apprenticeship program basically deals with managing the Enhancements that are proposed by the developers So we are not developing the announcements. We are just managing them So if you want to learn about what You want to learn about new enhancements that are coming in or if you are interested in what Kubernetes is in general how it is managed. What are the different components of it? You you better try getting into a release shadow program um and if you are This goes either ways on the other side if you want to if you have interest in a particular sig So you can just help in developing a feature or a box scrub as Richard said, but You can still apply to the release shadow program to get a general understanding of Kubernetes. So, uh, so the release shadow program is more about uh, managing stuff getting, uh Getting acquainted with how to manage Uh, how to manage stuff How to manage announcements in this case or maybe how to In this release team, uh, under the docs team how to document their enhancements So, uh, there are different areas into the release team as I said before so You try getting into the team that you find most interest in Uh, do you find interest in going through the documents? Just apply through to the release doc or release nodes? uh, if you find interest in the if you find interest in getting acquainted with, uh, how the flaky tests are, uh, how flaky tests are, um, Are dealt with you can apply to see a signal or a buck triage And if you want to know the general Enhancements that are coming through every release you can apply to announcements team So it's more of a general thing So kind of, uh, you know to somewhat summarize right so like If you're kind of interested in a particular niche of kubernetes, you know getting involved in the sake for that thing It's probably the best route, right? But if you kind of want to try to get a sense of kubernetes as a whole That's kind of where the kind of the shadowing and then eventually being on the release team is a good match Um, and it sounds like chicken and egg like it's kind of just based on your kind of interests Which approach to kind of go down first, you know And maybe maybe you never swap, right? Um, you know, but that's kind of the the general idea Um, yeah, because we have a lot of new folks joining into kubernetes who have not contributed to kubernetes as such So what i'm talking about is we have a lot of new folks into the release shadow program Which have not contributed to kubernetes Uh code was as such but they had any interest in contributing to kubernetes. So we select those kind of folks Yeah, that gives a general idea of what we're doing in the release shadow program I gotcha. Yeah, no, that's cool. Um and so Uh, obviously, you know for anybody who's listening That is a good way or that it's one of the paths for getting kind of more involved in kubernetes, especially if you are Um, kind of interested in the project as a whole Which is a non trivial exercise. Um, you know because the the project is pretty huge um Cool, uh, let me say this, uh What what do you feel like the biggest problem you ran into with this particular release? Um, was you know, was there anything specifically that stood out or something that you're like filing away as like what you could do better next time Um, what what was that thing? Uh for you if anything? The uh opinions might differ for each sub team. So for me, I'm sure my uh my My the announcement stream basically was very streamlined. So there were no particular town, uh, no particular things that were supposed to go uh, very sideways The for for our team the release went pretty normal Because what we've done in the past releases I can tell about the past Things that we had to deal with uh, there were We used to maintain a huge spreadsheet of google document Where we would track the every announcement So and you know as google spreadsheets might become complex as the uh the number rises um So yeah, yeah, uh for the from the past releases we have uh We have migrated towards making things automated So that has helped a lot in streamlining the current release and I think it would increase it would still it there's a chance if uh There's a chance of improvement in the automation, but uh, it it stuck at somewhere in between the apis So no support for the apis and stuff So if we get the support for apis of the graph graph of kitab We might streamline the process more of the automation and that would help a lot What do you think was there anything in particular that stuck out for you as like, you know Something that kind of it, you know as a thought of us said, you know went sideways or Something that or you felt like it was about to um, and that is something to kind of keep an eye on for the next time around Yeah, uh, so so at least uh myself uh, I think some of the things I uh, so things did go sideways and I think it is mainly mainly I could improve more on our on on trying to Our trying to make sure that we have a better way to handle full requests which come in A few hours before you make the release make the doxies. So we even had that and uh, I remember there was the situation where we Where we said, oh, we'll we want to do the release doxies right now But we need to get this PR merge first and that wasn't ideal emerging pure so late before the release so um, so I guess we need I personally need to uh Have better ways to do that and manage that kind of stuff Uh, and and still make sure the release gets delivered on time so this time around we I I did it in a Very rushed way And had quite some pressure on the release day to do this So I think I could have done that better and For for the next release teams if I'm back again on the release team will probably do that better next times Yeah Yeah, so the good thing about the kubernetes releases. We have retrospective meetings. So we discuss about every Drop everything that went well or everything that went that did not went well And we had a disc we always have a discussion around what could go well into the next release So that kind of streamlines every possible future Bad things that is going to happen and we improve on that. So that's That's that's a good thing for That's a good thing we have in the kubernetes releasing and that's why we continue to improve into the process of getting good releases Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's really great. Um, I was going to add though that you know If that's the last time that happens to you in you know, kind of your software career, uh, you know More power to you because you know, that is that is a not uncommon, you know Run in kind of at the edge. Um, you know, this is one of the reasons right that We advise people not to do releases on fridays anymore, right? Because that's how you end up working the weekend because something slips. Um, you know, so It is it is definitely something that happens. Uh, it's it always reminds me if I had a professor in college Who actually told me when I was in college That when I got good right when I became a professional, um, I wouldn't have syntax errors anymore Which was also not true. Um, you know, it's just like, you know, it's just kind of par for the course, right? You're going to have bugs. You're going to have late arrival of stuff, you know, uh, etc And so, you know, just kind of have to kind of you know, what you get better at over time I think is uh estimating the amount of damage it will do Uh and being able to plan for it rather than necessarily not have the thing happen, right? So um So I think that's always uh, it's pretty funny. Uh, and and interesting about the experience of getting better at this stuff Is that it's not necessarily the things get actually better entirely It's that you do a better job of preparing for them So that you can handle them, uh more efficiently. Um Cool. Well, I actually was going to say, um, maybe at this point We should wrap it up unless you had any other comments either one Did you want to bring up, you know, was there anything I I should have asked you that I didn't ask you about that You'd like to bring up Yeah, it went pretty well. Yeah That's nothing from me All right, Russia The same No, no, uh, sounds sounds good. All right. Well, thank you again so much for your time. We really appreciate it Uh, and uh, you know, hopefully, you know, we'll we'll see you, uh, you know in the kubernetes community Um, I will actually be at cube com next week. Uh in chicago if either of you will be there Um, definitely look me up. Uh, I'm actually trying to start They haven't quite decided whether it's like a sig or a working group or a what but basically something around a higher ed and bringing cloud native development, um, you know, curricula and stuff, uh to try to produce content for, um Faculty to give to their students. So not so much about how kubernetes works But how to build software that lives on top of something like kubernetes Okay, which I think is not well covered. Um, you know, there's lots of things to tell you how to ride a sidecar But there's not a lot of things to tell you why you'd ride a sidecar You know, so that's kind of what we're hoping to, uh, spin up And we we're always happy for more contributors or more people involved So we are on the higher ed channel in, uh, the kubernetes slack And uh, we're hoping to, you know, kind of launch some more stuff as we go forward The thing is we don't entirely fit in the normal, uh, kind of cncf, uh You know model because we're not quite a working group. We're not quite a sig We're, you know, kind of a little bit weird. So they're still trying to figure out what we're gonna look like so With that, I'll say, uh, happy halloween to anyone who celebrates it Um, and at this point it's basically a commercial event. So, you know, whatever Um, you know, but, uh, I hope you have a spooky tuesday and, uh, maybe I'll see some of you Next week Thanks again