 Hey, hi everybody. Welcome. Welcome to the Spring Fever Garden Forms where we connect you the gardener to the experts at North Dakota State University. And my name is Tom Cobb. I'm an extension horticulturist in the Department of Plant Sciences, and I think we've really got a really nice series of talks tonight. Let's talk about monarch butterflies. Monarch butterflies are well known for their beauty and grace. Really, the more you get to know about monarchs, you get to see what amazing creatures of nature. They're just a wonder of nature. And here to tell us how to design a garden that will attract and support monarch butterflies is April Johnson. April Johnson is the NDSU Extension Pollinator Technician, and her job consists of writing publications, giving presentations, and organizing public outreach for pollinator conservation. April is living her dream of getting paid to talk about plants and insects all day long, so we want to help her dream away. So April, welcome to the forums. Hi everyone. I'm so glad that I get to come and talk about bees and butterflies with y'all tonight. Let's get started. So again, yeah, my presentation is on monarch conservation gardens. As Sir McGinnis and I have been doing a lot of research in this area in the last six months, and we've found some really great references to how to attract monarchs and create prime habitat for them. So why do we care about monarchs? The eastern migratory monarch population has declined by 80% in the last 50 years. That is a lot. That is a very rapid decline for any species population. Some of the reasons why this has happened is climate change, pesticide use, problems in overwintering areas, which is down in southern Mexico, and loss of habitat is actually the biggest factor in the population decline. 850 million milkweeds have been eliminated from the Midwest since the 1990s. Okay, the eastern migratory population is a special section of monarchs that move from Mexico all the way up to northern Canada in a rotation every year. And it takes three to four generations of monarchs to make that move. So they spend their winter in nice sunny warm section of southern Mexico. And then when it starts warming up in the north, they move up. And after they find their first nice sunny patch of milkweed in that you can see, sorry, we're on this slide now. They started in Mexico down at that red dot down here. And then in the spring they move up to this area in the southern United States and they have their first generation of babies. And that generation will develop and then live for four to six weeks and then move farther north and start the process over again. And you'll get several of those generations, three to four moving up. And then the last generation will move all the way back down to Mexico and live for about six months while they wait for spring again. So this, I want you to pay attention to this corridor right here where the monarchs move. This one right there. Here's the agricultural red basket of the United States and you can see it overlaps with the monarch migration area. We have lost most of our milkweeds to expansion of agricultural plots. Meeting the food needs of a global population demands the continuing conversion of native prairie to prime farmland. I just want to make it clear in this presentation that I'm not blaming farmers for killing monarchs. I'm just saying the global population is rising and people are hungry and this is the prime farmland overlaps with monarch conservation areas. The result of this conversion is increasingly fragmented prairie with an empty matrix that grows larger and larger. And then when we're not talking about agricultural land, the rest of it is a lot of private land. And we like to put in monoculture grass lawns and this is a very pretty lawn, but it is a food desert for all types of pollinators. So this is where you guys come in. The home gardener has an opportunity to positively affect monarch populations by filling in the empty matrix with monarch conservation gardens. That's what we're going to talk about tonight is how to make a really good one. The monarch conservation garden. So the three main factors that determine a really excellent effective monarch conservation garden is its ability to recruit egg laying adults, support larval development and fuel adult migration. So we're going to talk about how to recruit those egg laying adults. Essentially, the best way to do that is to create visual cues. Monarchs make decisions about where to forage and lay eggs based on those visual cues that influence, oh, sorry. And then in the garden, visual cues that influence monarchs include the bloom color, plant health, plant configuration and more. We're going to get into those details. Color. So in the garden bloom color isn't as important as abundance. And so what I mean here, if you look at these two figures on the right hand side of the slide, we've got a mixed planting, which is I think your typical garden where we just we try to spread out our colors and we want because we're right there next to the garden and we're not floating in the air, however many feet above us, we get to see all the details and the mixing doesn't matter as much as far as the impact. But to a monarch butterfly who's flying doing their migration, they're much it's easier for them to see color blocks than it is for a mixed planting. So if you're going to design a monarch conservation patch, you want to use color strategically by installing multiple plants of the same species or cultivar in color blocks to enhance the visual cues. Orientation. So monarchs, if you guys remember from earlier in the slides, we showed the pattern where they started Mexico in the south and they move up north through the US to Canada and then come back down. So they're always moving this eastern migratory population is always moving north south. And in the research we've discovered that plots are utilized and found by egg laying adults, easiest if the plot is oriented north south. So if you've got your color blocks and they're arranged in the north south orientation that gives a monarch the most amount of time during their flight path to notice that you have a buffet laid out for them. Yep, install them north south. And then the other thing you want to be careful about with orientation is, oh, that's another slide. I'm sorry. Okay, we covered that. Great. Yay. Next, design. Layout is important. We're going to talk more about milkweeds in the garden. But right now what I want to say about milkweeds is there's been the highest egg laying on monarch plots. When the milkweeds are planted in a ring around the nectar source, monarchs are more likely to see the milkweed plants on the perimeter of the garden as they're migrating. And adult butterflies can easily find the nectar sources when they emerge from the chrysalis. So they're hungry little critters. And it's super convenient for them to have the nectar sources right next to where they just came out of their chrysalis. Larval development. That is the next element to designing a monarch garden. Monarchs do not detect sodium or metals in host plants. So we're talking about the location and metals and sodium get into your garden sometimes from runoff from the road. Larvae are at risk of sodium toxicity when feeding on roadside milkweeds. If you've done any research or reading about milkweeds, a lot of the stuff that comes up is how effective are roadside plantings of milkweeds along the freeway, the highway in those areas that aren't utilized as much and could be good sources of monarch conservation areas. But again, any sort of chemical runoff from the road can get into the milkweed. It can be splashed onto the leaves of the milkweed plant or taken up by the roots. And because the adults can't detect sodium or heavy metals in the milkweed, when they lay their eggs, they're laying eggs on a food source for their larvae that could actually poison the larvae. So when you're putting in your garden, establish the garden away from the road, the farther away from the road, depending on how busy it is, the healthier the plants and the larvae will be. Okay, now let's talk about milkweed. Milkweed is a monarch host plant because it supports the life cycle from egg to pupa. Monarch adults lay eggs on the milkweed, and then those eggs develop into caterpillars, and those caterpillars stay on the milkweed and feed on only the milkweed leaves for their entire life cycle until they become adults. Monarch larvae are specialist herbivores that feed on the milkweed to make themselves toxic to predators. So if you've ever touched a milkweed, it's got this really gross, milky sap. Gross is just a personal opinion, but they have this toxic chemical within the milkweed sap. And so when they ingest it, the caterpillars become poisonous to predators. There are lots of different milkweeds we can talk about, but the one you're going to hear the most about when you start digging into more information about milkweed gardens is you're going to hear about common milkweed. And on the right are some different characteristics of that milkweed, but I do want to say that it spreads aggressively by runners and I see that's the fourth bullet point down. Common milkweed grows really well here in North Dakota and all through the Midwest, but there are definitely some better options for a smaller garden in which you can't allow something to grow so wild. If you have a space where you can let something run rampant and have more of a prairie look, great. Common milkweed is for you. But for different garden setups, there are lots of other milkweeds. Butterfly milkweed, prairie milkweed, showy milkweed, and swamp milkweed. Look, they come in different colors. They're all very beautiful. They support larvae and they are a nectar source for foraging adults. These are different characteristics about swamp milkweed. Despite the name swamp milkweed, it doesn't actually need to grow in a swamp. It grows really well all over North Dakota and it stays much smaller as far as the spread goes than common milkweed. Butterfly weed, again, is a good choice for smaller gardens. It's very well behaved. It has a taproot, so it's going to burrow deep down in the soil and suck up nutrients that other plants can't reach. So at the end of the season, when you're cleaning up your garden, you can probably use some of your milkweed, depending on how big it's gotten, as kind of a living mulch or to help feed the soil or your other plants. Fueling migration is the third element to creating a prime monarch conservation garden. Some of the elements that you're going to want to put in your monarch garden would be water. There's all sorts of ideas to how to incorporate water in your garden. Migration is thirsty work. Yeah, it sure is. So add a water source near the nectar flowers. So if you create your monarch garden plot and you have your border of milkweed and your nectar sources within it, have your water tucked in there. A little fountain, a dish of water with rocks in it so the insects can land and not drown. The bigger the water source you have and the more shaded it is, the less time you're going to have to be out there refilling it. The shallower, the water, the smaller the dish, the faster it will evaporate. So that's something to consider how much maintenance do you want in your garden. And the other element that you're going to need is some shelter. There's all sorts of different types of shelter than talking about. Adult butterflies use trees for shelter during the night and rest periods during long migratory flights. So eventually your butterflies that have visited your garden may leave, but during the night they're going to rest. So consider adding elements of shelter like sturdy trellises, a bench, woody shrub, trees and shrubs are really great. The sturdy trellis and bench, I want to clarify here, those will also be super helpful for larvae that are ready to go into the chrysalis stage. They need something strong and sheltered from wind to attach their chrysalis to while they develop into adults. And then another really important element that we'll actually have more details about are the nectar sources. Adults monarchs do not feed on the milk we leave. So once they have like, oh, what is the word? I'm looking for COVID brain. When they develop, thank you, when they develop into adults, they switch to foraging for nectar. So they fuel their migration with the carbohydrates from all the sugar that they consume. They can travel between 1,500 miles per day. Yep, and the sugar is to fuel for the long migratory flights. Monarchs begin arriving in North Dakota in late June. Choose multiple species of nectar sources to bloom during the entire migratory season. So in your Monarch garden, you're going to want to have something that starts blooming in June and then stays through the beginning of fall. Sorry, not one continuous bloom through the whole season. I mean multiple plants with blooming times that overlap. But milkweeds also provide nectar for adults. Butterfly milkweed is one of the earlier blooming native species. Here are some plants that we recommend that are effective nectar sources for monarchs that are pretty easily sourced in our greenhouses. And we grow a lot of these in the experimental garden here at NDSU. So we've got wild bergamot, which is bee balm, black-eyed susan, prairie coneflower, Joe pie weed, August, metal blazing star, smooth blue aster, and September, New England aster and showy goldenrod. Okay, so here's my three critical concepts that I want you to take away from this presentation. One is the strategy. So I want to use visual cues to create optimum monarch habitat in the home garden. Monarch consumptions are customizable to their site needs. So please ask me questions about this. But what, you know, some of the things we talked about in this presentation are size doesn't exactly matter as much as the orientation and the layout of the garden. So you can have as small as like an eight by 10, you can have as large as several acres. But as long as they fit some of these characteristic descriptions that we've talked about, they will be, they will serve as prime monarch spaces. Yep. And then even small spaces can attract and support large populations. And that is because we talked a little bit about prairie fragmentation really early on in the presentation where I showed you pictures of the lawn that has no blooms in it. And I showed you the migration path that overlaps with the agricultural section of the United States. And prairie fragmentation is where you have a section of wild or private land that supports a monarch and then a long stretch of food, essentially a food desert for them. So what we're doing as home gardeners is helping to fill in the empty matrix, connect those prairie fragments. And if you have even a small monarch garden in your on your land, depending on how close it is to the next prairie fragment, it may be the only, I'm going to call it a rest area for miles. So if that's the case, even a small space can attract a huge percentage of those monarchs that are moving through our area. Two, impact. The goal of monarch conservation is to fill in the entry matrix with suitable prairie habitat. Yep, we just talked about that. And the home gardener can make a huge positive impact with seemingly little space and effort. Yep, absolutely. So exactly, yep, we were trying to fill in the matrix and connect those prairie fragments. And the last is education this QR code will take you to the NDSU extension pollinator conservation Facebook page. And that's where I put content up about some pollinator projects that we do here at NDSU that I'm organizing. I put links to presentations like this one. I get to talk about all sorts of different conservation news. Anyway, we do a lot of fun stuff there. I hope that you go check it out. And then I want you to watch for upcoming monarch and milkweed publications from NDSU and the easiest way to watch for those is to go and like the Facebook page because I will be talking about that when they are getting closer to coming out. And that is it. I would love to field some questions. Okay, thanks, April. We've got everybody please get in that Q&A box and ask your questions. April, we do have some already. Here's one. This person has a comment about monarch gardens and that she finds that adult monarchs like areas of her garden that are messy, where they have lots of places to hide. What do you think about that? Do I think that they're effective if they're messy? Oh, for sure. And you know what? That's a really good point because not only will that give some shelter to the monarchs, but also are other pollinators like bees, and I won't get too much into that. But there's lots of bees that shelter in like a dead log in your garden or dried up grass that's in a hibernation mode for the winter. So mess in the garden is good. So if somebody comes to your tea party and says, oh, your garden looks messy, and you just go, it's for the bees or it's for the monarch. Yeah. Mess in color blocks. That's important, right? Make sure, because you like color blocks, you're setting your talk, not just a mix of stuff, right? You want color blocks. Yeah, are much more effective. How about this person has lots of milkweed plants in her shelter belt, but every year they look at the plant and they can never see those chrysalis. So what time of year do you see a chrysalis for a monarch butterfly? Well, the chrysalis typically are not on the milkweed plants. At some point, and we don't, no one has really, there's not a lot of research of people observing when the caterpillars decide I'm going to go migrate to that bench over there. But they will build their chrysalis on a firm structure. Milkweeds just, you know, they move around too much. It's not a safe place for them to build their little chrysalis. Okay. How about would exhaust from a lawnmower be harmful to milkweed plants? No, I don't think so. I mean, if you're going to let your, if your lawnmower is going to idle for an hour next to a milkweed plant, maybe. Yeah. But no, just passing by, that's totally fine. Okay, that's good. Well, do you have a seed source to buy swamp milkweed? Oh, off the top of my head, I couldn't say, but I do have some resources that I have bookmarked, you know, at my office and I can get those out if people are interested in sourcing milkweed seeds or plugs. Yeah. I work a lot with vegetable seeds and like, even if anybody wants any variety, if you just go to Google and you type in swamp milkweed seed, you'll get lots of sources. But then April, is it important to where you get your source? Like, is there such a thing as a northern source? Is that important? Does that make a difference versus like a Tennessee's milkweed company? Does any of that make a difference? This has a lot of cheap, well, flower seeds. Right. I don't think so. I think that what's important is the cultivar or variety of milkweed rather than the source of the seed. Yeah. I mean, we love local. If you can, if you can source it locally, that's, that's best case scenario. Yeah. Yeah, I think like how about prairie seed nursery in Wisconsin that I'm sure that has milkweed, lots of milkweed and what's that prairie moon nursery? Prairie moon, yep. That's a very popular one in Minnesota. How about can milkweed be grown on hills? Yes, especially, well, yeah, yes, especially the ones that do very well with drought. So swamp milkweed does like a little bit wetter soil, so that's why it does super well here in eastern North Dakota because we have that clay, it holds water really well. But yeah, I would, I would guess that maybe swamp milkweed wouldn't do as well, but all of the other ones that I recommended in this presentation would do well on hills. Can you talk for a second about like, what's the life of a monarch? Like what's their life cycle in North Dakota? Like you said they hop up here and was it late June is when they arrive? Yep. And then what do they do here? How do they live their whole life here? Do they die off in September or what do they do when they're in North Dakota? Yeah. So monarchs in this area will experience a full life cycle from an egg and an egg will hatch in maybe like two to four days and then it'll become a larvae and that's like the long period or no, that's about two weeks and they'll go through five molting stages. And then after that, they'll become an adult and live like four to six weeks because we're not at either the tail north or the south end. We're not going to see the generation that overwinters. So the monarchs that you see will be, they'll be living there, they're full, they're, sorry, they'll be then, what is the right I'm looking for, the non overwintering generation. Probably the, maybe the first or second generation during that migration cycle. And then they fly, the adults fly back to Mexico in like September, right? Yep. In September. It's getting a little bit cooler. They start to, it's amazing. You said they fly like 50 to 100 miles in one day for a little butterfly. That's like, amazing. That's powerful. They have to visit hundreds to potentially thousands of flowers to make those really long 100 mile trips. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah, I think the North Dakota Monarchs, don't they travel just about as far as we're like kind of like at the edge of from Mexico to North Dakota. That's a very long migration pattern. That's one of the longest. How about can, can I put milkweed in a rain garden? Yes. So as I understand it, a rain garden experiences periods of swampiness and then can then can do drought. So yep, yep, you can definitely put those in there. And we already said that don't look for the chrysalis on a milkweed because look for a bench or something. It's a tree branch. Trub, yep. Okay. And do you get a, for a small yard, is there a minimum size for a milkweed garden or a modern garden? There's no research to really say what is the smallest version of that. I don't know. I think a, I don't, depending on the other floral resources you have nearby too, I would say like an eight by 10 is optimum as far as the smallest size. And even if they have a small yard, you talked about how the lawn can be used as another source. So just don't think about a flower garden. Think about the whole landscape, huh? Even you talked about the trees and shrubs can be assets to the monarchs. Yeah. I'm turning part of my boulevard section into a modern garden. So that's, which is currently just lawn. Yeah. Okay. A lot of people are just making comments about some of their experiences. Somebody saw monarch eggs on dill last year. So is that, was that, is that possible? Are we sure, are we sure they were monarch eggs? Hmm. Probably not. What does a monarch egg look like? What color is it? I mean, it looks like just an egg. Oh yeah. It looks like all of the eggs. I don't know. Got it. Okay. Last year, the monarchs came and ate all the milkweed leaves, but this year there's no milkweed. What's that about? Oh, weird. What kind of, do we know what cult of our milkweed was? Hmm. I think there's only two types that we know. April purple and orange. That's what I would say. Okay. That's interesting. So evidently that maybe anything, huh? Yeah. Well, I would guess that it's not a cultivar that spreads by rhizomes. Okay. There you go. It would have, I guess, Those less aggressive ones, not the common milkweed. Yeah. How about the monarch urns prefer shade or sun? Oh, definitely full sun. Yep. Because not necessarily because of what the plants like, it's because if it's shaded, that means that the view could be potentially blocked. By a building or a fence or a tree, that's going to prevent the monarchs from seeing it from above. Okay. How about does a road surface next to the garden, is that beneficial for butterflies? Like if you have gravel or pavement? Well, we talked about heavy traffic and then runoff from a, you know, from the road can. You can get heavy metals and too much salt uptake in the milkweed. But if we're talking about visibility, I would say that having it near driveway because a driveway can't shade a garden because it's flat. Then visibility, it probably might enhance visual cues. Don't butterflies like, what do you call it? They like to bathe themselves in the sun? They like to sunbathe or don't butterflies like to do that in general? Yes. Especially when they first emerge from the chrysalis, they actually spend about, I want to say three hours drying out. They have to pump fluid into their wings to inflate them and then they're just kind of wet when they can't fly when they're like that. So they sunbathe. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that gravel surface where some flat rocks could help also. What do you think about butterfly boxes or butterfly hotels? Are you know, does that work? Oh, like squirrel lunchboxes? I don't know. I've heard of these. I don't recommend them. I don't know. I think, I haven't seen any research says that they help. So if you have evidence, like anecdotal evidence, just go ahead and try it. But yeah, I've just heard that. I don't know. I don't like the idea of concentrating them all in one space like in a butterfly box and then a squirrel gets in there or something a predator gets in there eats them. It doesn't make the prey easier to find than when they're tucked into the landscape. How about when you saw swamp milkweed, do you have to scarify the seed? Do you know that? Do I have to scarify? Scarify, like scratch the seed. Oh, good question. Or will it germinate by itself? I don't know the answer to that. I've never heard that. I've never heard that for milkweed. I'm going to look at it. I'm running it down. That's a good question. This person has an oval leaf milkweed on the dry side of their heel out here in the West. It's a smaller milkweed and less aggressive. How about, can you feed butterflies with cut up fruit? Do they appreciate a little nutrition like that, like pears or apples? Yeah. I mean, the, yes, I have seen butterflies nectaring on a dish with, you know, half an orange in it or a banana peel. They do like those. It will attract other insects though. So it's not exclusive to butterflies. You know, wasps will find it. And we don't love wasps. So use with caution, I guess, or use knowing that you may attract unwanted insects. Okay. Speaking of unwanted creatures, what can you name besides people? What are the predators of a monarch? Oh, well, I mean, yeah. So, okay. So the time when a monarch experiences the most risk of predation is egg to early instar stage before they've had a chance to consume enough milkweed to become toxic. Once they are nice and juicy caterpillars with their very vibrant stripes, most predators know not to eat them. And they know not to eat the orange adults either because they will make the birds vomit. So that's interesting. It's interesting about birds know it by the color of the stripes. Do you have something to add to that? I'm sorry. Oh, no, I was just thinking, I mean, but when they're just an egg, I mean, anything that likes to eat insect eggs could find it. Yeah. Okay, this person knows about scarification. They say milkweed does need to be cold stratified for 30 days. And then they germinate readily after that. There you go. But they don't cold stratified, but not scarified. They don't be scratched. But for example, they need a cold treatment to germinate like a winterizing treatment, which could be done like with course, moist sand mixing in the seed and then put in the fridge for 30 days. Stratification. Okay. So the same thing that like bulbs need or like the, you know, like some seeds had a lot of perennial flowers had those winterizing treatments. How about that person says that dill was probably a swallowtail. Okay, I'm just going to guess. Yeah, woolly bear caterpillar. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so that makes sense. Do monarchs like evergreen trees? Yes. So they overwinter in evergreen trees in Mexico. And is it true they can, a family can, the same generation flies to the same village every winter, even though it crosses generations? Have you heard that? Yes. So something in their DNA programs, monarchs that have never been to Mexico to fly down to Mexico every year. The same village. The same acreage of forest. Yeah. Astounding. And they fly from Bismarck, North Dakota down to Mexico and they land in the same village every year. Their ancestor, that their ancestors were at. That is hard to understand. That's amazing. How about, okay, this has a simple question for you. How do farmers affect monarchs when farmers spray their crops? Okay, so in the 1990s, Roundup Ready corn and soybeans became super popular. So that enabled farmers to have clear fields that they could grow their corn and soybeans and be really productive. And that was great. However, most of the milkweeds that I'm talking about that were in agricultural settings were directly like inside the fields. So the use of those products eliminates milkweeds from the field. So again, I want to reiterate, I don't blame farmers for trying to feed the world. But, you know, when we convert the prime farm, the prairies to farmland, we're going to lose milkweeds. There are a lot of programs that are empowering farmers to put in prairie strips and to let milkweeds grow in the margins of their property. And that's really effective. So, did I answer the question or did I go off tangent? No, to me it's, for I would have just thought insecticide sprays, you know, butterflies are insects. When the farmers spray insects, insecticides, the butterflies are going to get it too. But I like your approach about how the GMO crops could also have an impact. It's honestly less the, yes, insecticides affect insects. That's their, the purpose, right? But it is really the loss of habitat because monarchs will only lay eggs on the milkweed and the larvae will only eat milkweed. So if you don't have anywhere to lay babies or to feed your children, your population is going to decrease. And that's where we can help. Yeah. How about this, this person has a comment, they place monarch caterpillars in court jars with milkweed. And then when the butterfly emerges, he releases them to the garden. How about like an incubator? I'm guessing that the lid is perforated or has some sort of screen for air and everything. I hope so. How about is a viceroy butterfly as good as a monarch? As, what does that mean? Oh, that was just my, that was just me. How about beneficial to the world as monarchs? Why do we like monarchs so much anyhow? Just because they're orange and pretty? Okay. I have an, I think people like monarchs want, I think they've just, they're charismatic and they've become an emblem of conservation. You know, when you see, you know, but, you know, they don't necessarily provide better pollination services than they certainly don't do it better than bees. Not that I'm not saying the bees are more important to anything, but are they better than viceroys? I don't know. I think monarchs are popular because they're easy to recognize. And the way you tell the difference between a monarch and a viceroy, which are so easily confused, is the viceroy has almost a horizontal vein, black vein near the bottom of its hind wings. If you go, if you join the monarch NDSU pollinator conservation extension, if you join the Facebook page, you go look at it. The cover photo, the one that goes across the top of the screen has a viceroy and you can clearly see the black vein that goes across the bottom of the hind wing. And then you can, then from now on, you'll be able to tell the difference really easily. Yeah, I think they're all, they're all important, even like the lowly skipper. They're all important. They're all. All ones. I think we all have a place in this world. How about a last, how about a last question here? This person, is there a way to protect the larva that are feeding on the milkweed plants from those nasty birds? Or do we put a rope cover with that help on them? Or is that just doing too much? I need to think more thoroughly about that question, but they do, they molt to their different stages pretty fast. The window opportunity where they're multiple and are built is pretty small. But if you want to keep birds out of your milkweed patch, I've had really good success with putting those like any foil flags that pinnails. Yeah, just anything that moves to scare the birds away. So that, that could, that could work. Take down your bird feeder. Oh, yeah. How about that? Okay, April, I think we've got, we took care of a lot of questions here. And, and if anybody has any questions, follow up questions, please contact April, get on her Facebook page. And she is the expert on this topic and she will have the answers for you. So April, thank you for tonight's presentation.