 There is no secret that women are historically facing greater barriers than men when it comes to participating in the economy across geographies and income levels. Disparities between men and women persist in the form of pay gaps, uneven opportunities for advancements, and unbalanced representation in important decision making, aka leadership. What is the reason that is holding back women from achieving a high position? A major question that is always raised when it comes to the topic of women in Islam, when it's debated, does Islam promote or forbid women from achieving high positions joining us tonight? And once again, Sayed Hussain Al-Qazweeni, to discuss this topic and linking it to tonight's topic, which is Fatima the leader, respected viewers, brothers and sisters in Islam. As-salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. Welcome to the fourth episode of Zahra the Great with me, your host, Ahmad Ali. As-salamu alaikum Sayyidina. How are you? How are you? Now, before we begin for the dear viewers who are just tuning in, if you would like to view the previous episodes, you can visit our YouTube channel at Imam Hussain 3 TV. Sayedina, in the previous episodes we talked about Fatima the daughter, Fatima the mother, Fatima the wife. And tonight, after discussing the show, you wanted to mention or you wanted to name the title of this episode, Fatima the leader. What is your intention? What do you mean behind that? What did Fatima the Zahra contribute? What did she do? As-salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. There is no doubt that Fatima the Zahra, alayhi salam, although the period in which her role was featured, and the spotlight was on her, was, you know, several weeks. If we take from the death of Rasulullah till her martyrdom, and there's three narrations on her martyrdom, one is the 40th, meaning 40 days after the demise of the Prophet, another narration states 75 days, another narration states 95 days. Which word come already knows? Let's take the 95 day narration. 95 days means three months and five days. Yes. Fatima the Zahra was under the spotlight for three months and five days. No doubt that she did have a leadership role. Her leadership, you know, isn't the leadership of men as in entering battlefields, leading an army, becoming an army general, or the head of state, head of government. Usually when you hear that a man has become a leader, you immediately think that he's the head of a tribe, the head of a government, the head of an army, and so on and so forth. No. Fatima the Zahra was none of the above, however, the role that she played. And her role started from the demise of Rasulullah, the same day, from the day of his burial, from the day of the attack on her house. Her role began. Fatima the Zahra, alaihi salam, had several achievements. One was after the physical attack on her house, and this is in several narrations, in Sunni, let alone Shi'a narrations. Of course the Sunni narrations do not discuss the actual attack. Sunni narrations, they stop short, they admit to the bringing of wood and fire. They admit to that some of the Sahaba threatened to burn the house. We'll talk about these things tomorrow. They admit to many of these things, but they stop short from actually admitting that the house was attacked. Anyhow, Fatima the Zahra comes out to the Masjid when Amir al-Mu'minin was dragged to give bay'ah to Abu Bakr. Fatima the Zahra followed them. She could have stayed at home. She was injured. Physically she was injured. She had to stay home. Rather she left with her injury. She came to the Masjid to defend Imam Ali, alaihi salam. She was afraid for his life. She spoke very harsh words to the Sahaba that you and you, you do this. And now I'm the daughter of Rasulullah. Rasulullah, his grave is still wet from burial. This was one of the first positions. This was a strong position against the authority at the time. Another very well-known position that Fatima the Zahra took was the incident of the speech of Fadik. Perhaps we might talk about this tomorrow night. When Fadik was taken, Fatima the Zahra came to the Masjid. And in front of all the men, of course, she was fully covered. She was fully covered with full hijab. Some say that there was a curtain stopping men from seeing her. Others say no, there was no curtain, but she was fully covered. And she gave one of the most powerful political speeches of all time. It was a political speech. It was about Fadik, but she turned it into something a lot bigger than Fadik. A lot bigger than Fadik. Because as one of the Imams, one of the later Imams was asked, how big is Fadik? One of the Khulafa of Bani Umayyah asked one of our later Imams. He told me, tell me the dimensions of Fadik. He thought it's a land. It's like a garden. It's like a garden. He told him, do you want the numbers? Or do you want the real size of Fadik? He said, no, give me the real size of Fadik. The Imam told him Fadik starts from China, up to Morocco, from Samarkand. The Imam basically gave him the dimensions of the Islamic Ummah. He told him, this is Fadik. Meaning this is the real Fadik. Our argument is not on a piece of land called Fadik. The actual Fadik is the Khulafa. You see? It's the leadership of the Muslims. I got lost because many narrations state that's a piece of land. It is a piece of land. It is a piece of land. But what Fadimah Tizahara was actually arguing over was not a piece of land. Was the leadership. Was the leadership. Was the Khulafa. Why? Because Fadimah Tizahara saw that if she remains quiet on a piece of land, you know, she has to remain quiet on everything else. She had to make it a big deal. Her point was not about Fadik. Because Fadimah Tizahara saw this, that today I will argue over Fadik. If I receive Fadik, tomorrow I'll argue over the Khulafa. I'll argue over the Khulafa. So Fadimah Tizahara's philosophy was that let's do this in stages. So technically she meant the land. Technically she meant the land, but her objective was much bigger. Yes. Was much bigger. In that speech, it was a very powerful speech. You know, in Arabia, in the Arabian Peninsula, in that area, women were, they were deprived of all rights. Yeah. Buried. They were buried. They were abused physically, emotionally. They had no rights. They were enslaved. They were enslaved. Their inheritance would be taken. You know, all kinds of exploitation would occur with women. All of a sudden you have a young lady come inside the masjid in front of a lot of men, in front of an authority that just usurped power. She stands without any fear to speak and speak so eloquently. Fadimah Tizahara, it's not like she said and she memorized a speech. No, it was impromptu. It was impromptu and she gave the most powerful speech that you say that my father had stated that prophets, whatever they leave, is charity. The Qur'an says, wawaratha Sulaimanu Dawood. There's no inheritance for the prophets. The Qur'an says that Dawood inherited, that Sulaiman inherited Dawood. Zakaria says, wa habni milladun qawalia yarithuni wa yarithum min aliaqub. Grammy, a son that will inherit me. What you're saying contradicts the Qur'an. You, ya ababak, you inherit your father, but I don't inherit my father. These are powerful words. And this shows the beauty of Islam. Because if it wasn't for Islam elevating women and giving them rights and giving them their privileges, Fadimah Tizahara would not have been able to speak in such a way. But because she knew that through the message of her father and through the message of the Qur'an and through the work of 23 years, Rasulullah had worked so much to elevate the status of women that Fadimah Tizahara could speak freely. And she couldn't be, this is leadership. This was Fadimah Tizahara's leadership. Words to come and speak in front of these usurpers of Khilafa. This is definitely, to me, this is leadership. I mean, according to some, to many, they say that Fadimah Tizahara is an infallible. She built her courageousness, if you will, from her infallibility. So she was able to do that. We don't see any women in the history of Islam other than Fadimah Tizahara and Zaynab A.S. who actually play the leadership position, if you will. After the message of Rasulullah and after, we see Fadimah Tizahara and Zaynab. We don't see any women. In the history of Islam? In the history of Islam. Or in general. And, well, I mean, after, if she set that role model, why is it only her? First of all, I disagree. We see it, though. I mean, it's history. Right. First of all, we have other examples of figures that made political statements. For example, like Asya, the wife of Fara'un. She wasn't Muslim, although she followed Prophet Moses. But she followed him. From our history, from our history. Well, first of all, we have to realize that this is a male-dominated society. This is a male-dominated society. It wasn't easy for them to accept the equality between men and women. These are people that took women. They enslaved their women. The women were basically prisoners at home. They couldn't leave the house. They were treated the same way that a slave is treated. They were killed and infanticide. So first of all, you have to acknowledge this, that this was a male-dominated society. But despite that, we see several female figures. One, Musa Maka, who is this? I believe right now, if I have a mistake in her name or her name is Musa Maka, a female from the Sahaba, from the companions of Rasulullah, who was at the Battle of Uhud. She fought. She fought when all of the companions of the Prophet left him except five, except four men, and she was the fifth. Except five people. Four men and one female, and she was one of them. She took a stick and wanted to defend Rasulullah. And she defended Rasulullah. She came in the battlefield to defend Rasulullah, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, as a female figure. We have some companions of Rasulullah, some of the Sahabiyat who would come to the battles, but not to fight, to nurse. You know, they say that Islam tells a woman to sit at home and not leave the home. Rasulullah would take some women with him to battle, but not to enter the battlefield, to nurse. To nurse the men. This was their jihad. The jihad of men was to fight. The jihad of women was to nurse those who were injured. These are, this is leadership. They could have stayed at home, but they decided to listen to Rasulullah and go out. Some of the wives of Rasulullah were in great leadership positions. Khadija, alaihi sallam. If it wasn't for her wealth and her leadership, Islam would have been in danger. Umus Salama. You know, we rarely talk about some of the other wives of Rasulullah. Some of the other pious wives of Rasulullah, Umus Salama. Umus Salama was one of the great wives of Rasulullah. She was knowledgeable. Sometimes she would answer questions. They would come to her to ask her questions and she would ask, I'm sorry, she would answer questions based on her knowledge of the Quran and her knowledge of the traditions of Rasulullah, sallallahu alaihi sallam, and some of the others. So, but why don't we see more? You have to remember, it was a male dominated society. Women were not comfortable to coming out and being in leadership positions. It's not because Islam did not give them the opportunity, but because it was a male dominated society. Now, one of the questions that is raised, and that comes to my mind, is that over the past few decades, and after many debates and many protests on the streets, women in the West have been given a chance, a small chance to lead. You can't say a chance, because a chance may have limits, may not have limits. A very small chance to lead. We see people like Hillary Clinton, we see like Theresa May, and... Angela Merkel. Angela Merkel. Now, these are a few out of how many leaders we have around the world. Does Islam give women the opportunity to lead? It's, this is a very sensitive topic. I mean, a lot of people in debates, as you mentioned, wherever you go, wherever the topic is women in Islam, this question has to be raised. Why are Muslim women always in the house? Why don't they leave? Why don't they work? They do work, but some people are, they're blind or their ego blinds them. I don't know, but this question's always raised. Does Islam give opportunities to women to lead? Or are they ordered to be followers? It's true. Today in the West, you'll find female politicians in Germany, in the UK. It was almost going to happen in the US. There have been female politicians that reached power or some were almost going to reach power. The West gave them that opportunity. Supposedly in the West, there's no gender barriers. A woman could reach wherever a man reached. However, you have to remember that this didn't happen from, this didn't happen a long time ago. In the US, couple of days, decades ago, women were given the right to vote. They didn't have the right to vote. In the UK, in the UK, less than 150 years ago, less. Women did not have the right to ownership. They couldn't own, they couldn't own. It's only been 150 years ago that in the UK, women are able to own and the US women are able to vote and they were given these rights. These rights didn't exist before. Some people will debate, Islam has been 1400 years. Islam has given these rights. Islam has given these rights. We should differentiate between what Islam has given women and what have Muslims given women because they're not the same. When it comes to Islam, Islam has given women the right to ownership from day one, women can own. In fact, we have law stating that a man has absolutely no authority, a husband, has no authority to touch the wealth of his wife. Even if she's richer than him, he has to spend. She doesn't have to spend on the family. She doesn't have to spend on herself. The husband has to spend on her. That means she can own. She has the right to own, own homes, lands, wealth, businesses. Sayyid al-Khadeegah was a businesswoman. She was a businesswoman. Also, Allah needed her for a loan. And then it was actually a mubarak, it was a loan. It was profit sharing. Anyhow, Islam has given women the right to own, to work. We don't have a single law that states women are not allowed to work and not allowed to enter the workforce. In fact, in the West, when women enter the workforce, when was it? Historians tell us that when women entered the labor force, it was after World War I. Yeah, in the factories. They entered the factories. Why? Because so many men, millions of men, had joined the war. These factories needed workers and they needed cheap labor. They brought women. These women were exploited. One, they would work more hours than men did. Two, they were paid less than men were paid. And when men, after World War I, when many men came back, these women lost their jobs. They lost their jobs. This is exploitation. And those who remained at work, they weren't able to receive promotions. Even, this exists till today. Till today in sociology, we learn about the glass ceiling. A woman, a man and a woman in the same company, in the same workplace, the man has more chances of receiving a promotion than the woman. Why? Because a woman might get pregnant, she might get married, get pregnant and have a child. She'll have to leave the work. So men, so these companies, they think they assume that having a man is more productive than having a woman. They'll give him the promotion, but not the woman. Can we continue this, but after a short break? Absolutely. If you want, insha'Allah. Respect the viewers. Do stay tuned for after the break, we'll continue our discussion. Stay tuned. Respect the viewers, brothers and sisters in Islam, as-salamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Once again, I welcome you to the second part of tonight's episode, where me and my dear guest, Sayed Hassan Al-Qazweeni, have been talking about achieving a high leadership position for women in Islam or in general. Welcome, as-salamu alaikum. Thank you very much. As-salamu alaikum as-salam. Before the break, we touched upon a few key points. We touched upon the Islamic history and the viewpoint of women being in leadership. And we also touched upon some of the things that have been going on through history that just up to a few decades ago were solved. The being in the workforce for women and them getting and the pay wage, the gap between men and women, it's huge. A study that was done in 2015 says out of the top 500 companies, fortune companies around the world, especially in America, 21 women out of 500 actually became CEOs of that. So the ratio is huge. So we find that even today, I mean, 2015 was just two years ago. So today we find that such idea still exists. Yet, I'm going to ask you the question again, does Islam provide women, Muslim women, the opportunity to work? Or be in a leadership position? Absolutely, absolutely. First of all, going back to the wage gap, in Islam there's no such thing as wage gap, Islam says you respect the person's work. Regardless of who they are. I mean, for inheritance, there is. For inheritance, inheritance is another issue. Inheritance is another issue. But when it comes to wages, Islam says we respect a person's actions, regardless of who they are. If they perform an action, they deserve that wage, whether it's a man or a woman, just because this person's a man, it doesn't mean that he should earn more than a woman. All the jobs, all the professions, wherever men reach, women can also reach. This is not something. Has this been proven, religiously, Islamically? There's nothing in Islam that stops women. Has this been implemented? That's our fault. That's the fault of Muslims. But we're talking about Islam now. Islam doesn't prevent, if men can become doctors and engineers and scientists, politicians, women can too. Wherever men reached, women have reached. We'll go on and stuff further. Some jurists, not just today, not just today. Please don't tell me they're leading. You know, over 400 years ago, al-Muqaddas al-Ardabili, al-Muqaddas al-Ardabili, who was in Najaf, his date of death is 993, I believe, after Hijrah. We're 1438 after Hijrah. His year of death is 993. All over 400 years ago. Over 400 years ago. In his book, his major compendium on fiqh, Majma al-Fa'idati wal-Burhan, he talks about judges, judges and who is qualified to be a judge and what are the conditions of being a judge? Do you have to be a male? So he says that most scholars believe that you have to be a male to be a judge. And he says, well, let's see what proof they have. He talks about the proof. And he says, this isn't proof. This isn't proof. This is not evidence. This is weak. This does not prove to me that women cannot be judges. And then he reaches the final conclusion that women can be judges in Islam, in courts. As long as they fulfill other conditions, such as being a much-tehid, having the ability to derive an Islamic law, they're religious. All the other conditions, a woman can become a judge. Today, there are contemporary scholars in Iran and Iraq that believe women can become judges. There are some that even went further to say we do not have proof, sufficient proof to stop women from becoming maraja. For example, the Sheikh Mohammed Hussain al-Asfahani, also known as al-Kompani al-Asfahani, one of the teachers of Sayyid al-Khoi. We're talking about 150 years ago. A hundred years ago, a hundred years ago. He said this a hundred years ago, that we don't have sufficient proof to stop women from becoming maraja. Sayyid al-Muhassin al-Hakim, Sayyid al-Muhassin al-Hakim. This was his opinion, that we don't have sufficient proof to stop women from being maraja. If they have studied, they are capable of giving an opinion, an educated opinion on matters of Islamic law. We'll take it from him. Just like we refer to a female doctor and a female engineer. We refer to female experts and professionals. We refer to them in Islamic law as well. This is a turning point. This is a huge step. Men can follow female jurists. No, I'm not here to issue a fetwa. I'm telling you, such discussions exist. Exist, but when, for example, if I make a point, for the dear viewers, we have to clarify. And for example, if, say for right now, a woman came out and declared her scholarship. She says from now on and... Most scholars say you can't follow her. Most. But I'm saying that there are. You will find some decisions. For females or can she be for females or no? Well, if she could be, she could be for everyone. Not just females. In fact, in the biography of Shahid al-Awwal, Shahid al-Awwal, Shamsuddin Muhammad ibn Makki, Shahid al-Awwal from Lebanon. He had his wife and his daughter. His daughter Fatima Sittil Mashaikh. This was her name. Fatima Sittil Mashaikh. Shahid al-Awwal, she was a jurist. She was a much-tahda. The legal freedom in his book, when he talks about Fatima Sittil Mashaikh, he says she was a much-tahda. Her father would ask women, he would say don't refer to me. You don't even need to ask me questions. Ask my daughter questions. He would get women to refer to her. This is leadership. And his wife, meaning her mother, Ummu Ali. His wife, Ummu Ali, was also a jurist. Shahid al-Awwal would ask women to refer to her. I remember once I did a study, and I came across at least 15 female Mujtahids in our history. At least those that I came across. There's many that I don't know about. Mujtahids, they reached this position, this academic level of knowledge. Islam doesn't stop women from becoming leaders. Islam does not put a barrier on women. Allah says, man amila salihan min dhakkarin, wa untha fil anuhiyannuhu haiaatan ta'ibah. Allah swt doesn't discriminate between men and women. All the opportunities that are laid down for men, there are laid down for women as well. Yes. There are some details. There are some differences on the issue of inheritance, on the issue of witnessing. Even those are debated today. Even those are debated. It's not a discrimination. When Islam says that a woman's testimony is half of that of a man, it's not because of discrimination against her. No. There is a special context. These laws have to be contextualized. The verse that speaks of a woman's testimony is half of that of a man. It's a verse that discusses financial issues, seeking out a loan, buying and selling. Usually women, because they don't pay it back then, back then, today it might be a different case. Back then, because women did not deal so much with money, usually it's demand that buys and sells, they might not remember, especially numbers. How much did you buy? How much did you sell? This is something normal. People remember the things that pertain to them the most. Talk about the stock market. Even today, who will tell you if stocks went up or down? Men or women? Usually it's the men. Women tend to remember the things that pertain to them. Men remember the things that pertain to them. This is something normal. Islam says that if a woman witnessed, let her have another witness. Why? Because she might forget. She might forget. It's not a matter of discrimination against women. It's a matter of memory. Who remembers better? On this topic, on this topic, matters of money, business, loans, you bought this, you bought that, you sold that for how much? It's not a discrimination, it's not an issue of discrimination. After all the development that the world went through, is there a need? For example, for business or money, there's receipts, there's bank statements, there's various ways you can go about proving something that is right or wrong. I need another woman. For example, in Shari'a al-Islam al-Muhaqq al-Halli, he says that if you owe me money, and I only have one witness and she's a female, he says that's fine, one female witness, and I have to swear that you owe me money, that's enough. One female witness, plus swearing by God, that you owe me money, that's enough. That's enough. Today there's a lot of developments, of course, there's a lot of reform in Islamic fiqh, and there's a lot of laws that were previously accepted and were popular. Today they're being reassessed and they're being revised. My point is that women can be leaders. There's not a single fatwa that says a woman cannot be a president, or a prime minister, or a minister, or a member of parliament, or the head of a committee. No, no. We don't have any such laws. We don't have such narrations that say women cannot participate in civic engagement, in civic leadership, in politics. No. This time has given women that opportunity. But have they taken the opportunity? That's another issue. And I'm afraid that women for so many centuries, they've got used to being followers that today it's difficult for them to become leaders. Because when you get used to something, it's hard to change. It's like we, the Shi'a of Allah, for centuries, we've always been ruled, and not the rulers, that today that government has finally come into our hands, we don't know how to rule, because we've been used to being ruled. And I think it's the same case with women. There's not a lot of women coming out to lead, because they've been used to being led, and to follow. So to be followed is something new to them. And I hope that women will take advantage of Islam's rights for them, Islam's designated rights for them to achieve. Over the past half a decade, this is speaking in general, not specific Muslims or other races or religions, over the past half a decade, a lot of talk has been about a topic where do we need more women leaders? Would it affect our society? What does society have to change in order to produce more women leaders, female leaders? And as studies after being conducted, they see that women are more fit than men in some areas, in some fields. In your opinion, do we need female leaders? What can they achieve? What can they contribute to Islam or in general for the general community of society? I think we do need female leaders, not just because we're not giving into pressure to the feminist movements or so on and so forth. No. I truly believe, and there's many scholars today that feel the same way, that women have a lot to contribute. You see, men and women are different, not just physically, but even the way they think. Women will notice things that men don't. I don't know if you've noticed this or not. If a woman, if a man and a woman would tend to a gathering where there's a lot of men and women, they're socializing, men will notice certain things while women will notice other things. You can tell from their discussions when they go back home, did you see this person or that person or what this person was wearing or what was on this thing? A man might not pay attention to these things. The man might pay attention to the food at the gathering while a woman will pay attention to the details, the painting of, the color of the paint in the room, so on and so forth. The man will pay attention to the weather. It was really hot in there while a woman will pay attention to other things. My point is that men and women think differently. In leadership, we need that other perspective. We need women to come and give us their perspective because it's a male-dominated society. We men think, we've always thought in a specific way and we've ruled, men generally have ruled according to their understanding, but when a woman comes and gives her input on what she thinks, how she thinks, I think it will make a difference whether we're talking about in the field of politics or the field of religion. Even in religion, if we allow women to give their input of course after reaching a stage of knowledge, of becoming a jurist, of becoming a murshtana, if they put their input and they say, you know what, from this narration, I understand something else. While many men will read a narration and they'll get one thing from it, if a woman were to read it, she might understand something else. We could learn from that perspective. If we give the chance for women, no, but if we give them a chance to research, if we give them a chance to teach, if we give them a chance to write in journals, to write articles, to write books, about Islamic law, about any... We can learn from their perspective. They'll have something new to offer. And the same thing goes for politics. You know, that's one. Another point that I'd like to make is that women are... they're not aggressive by nature. Men are aggressive. That's why you see men, they like action movies, movies that are full of action and blood and... you know? Women, on the other hand, they like romance. They like drama. Things like that. Movies in that sort of genre. This shows that women are not aggressive. They're not violent. We need that in politics. We need nonviolence in our politics. We need nonaggression. In our politics. When a woman comes and gives her perspective and calms things down, we need that into politics. Definitely. Not just into politics. Our Islamic centers in the West, even here, women don't have roles in mosques in Islamic centers. Very few. We only need them when we want to fundraise because women are excellent at fundraising. But when it comes to decision making, on the future of our Islamic centers, on our majalis, which speakers to bring in, which sort of programs to have, we don't give women their role. Even though when you go to some mosques in Hussainiyat and Islamic centers, you will find that women are more than the men. In the audience, you will find women are maybe 60% or 70% while men make up of 30% or 40% of the audience. This is a common future in a lot of places where I go. They make up more than half of the audience, but they don't have a say in decision making. This is not fair. This is wrong. We need to give women their place in the community, in politics, in religion, in all fields. And I strongly feel that women, they can contribute a lot. They can contribute so much, so much positive contributions they can make, but we just need to give them that opportunity. Yes, hopefully we can through... It takes something, a huge thing to change within the mentality of whether Muslims or any population and society to give the segregated segment of society the chance to actually breathe. Islam gave that opportunity to say the Khadija, to say the Zaynab, and to other females. Why can't we do the same today? It's unfortunate to see that how Muslims took the cherry pit out of the religion. They cherry picked what they want and left what's actually more beneficial for their religion. I would like to thank you very much for joining us tonight. My pleasure. Tomorrow we'll continue our discussion on Fatima the Murder. Thank you very much. One key point that we should leave and conclude with tonight is to always keep an open mind on what is actually prohibited and what is actually promoted for Muslim women in Islam. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Peace be upon you. Peace be upon you.