 Hey Safe Mode, welcome to Hack the Sea. I'm Kitty and I'm here to give you a brief explainer on what UUVs are and what their challenges are. So essentially a UUV is an unmanned underwater vehicle or as I like to say an unpersoned or uncrewed underwater vehicle. Underneath the category of a UUV there are two central subtypes. There's the AUV, the autonomous underwater vehicle, and the ROV, the remotely operated vehicle. And the key difference between these two is one is a self-guided, self-contained system, the AUV, and it makes its own decisions and completes its own tasks without human guidance or interference. The ROV conversely is usually a tethered system, but either way it's connected to a human who's helping the machine complete its tasks and go along its guidance. Essentially what we're talking about here are maritime robots. So why do we need maritime robots? Well, most of it is about exploring or extracting stuff from the ocean. And what we know about humans in the ocean is that if you put a human under the water on a long enough timeline they tend to die. So the history of the development of technologies for exploration and extraction used to be about putting a suit around a human or putting a crew inside some sort of undersea shelter that would allow them to do the things they wanted to do. And that timeline is quite long. So what you're looking at in this image is an atmospheric diving suit, and that I think is an image from 2014. But more interestingly, the submarine you're looking at, what essentially looks like a barrel with a window on it, that model is from the 1700s. So the history of trying to extract and explore the ocean is quite long. The other thing that we tend to do under the ocean largely brought on by a number of wars is we do tend to do fighting underneath the sea. And what you're looking at here is an example of an unmanned torpedo. So the way this works is this person sits atop this torpedo and in front of this person is a timed warhead. And what they do is they guide the torpedo to its location, the driver then drives the man torpedo over near the enemy ship, attaches the warhead, and then drops and runs as or swims as fast as they can to get away. So, presumably, people signing up for this job probably drew the short straw. But this is much of what drives the development, at least for militaries for the creation of a UUV, because this is a high-risk environment. So what we're asking to do at Hack the Sea is for you guys to start thinking about ways to create some battle bots. And so I have three essential, easier and harder design sets that you want to start thinking about if you want to play next year at DEF CON 29. So the easier way to think about this is to tether. And so if you wanted to engage in your battle and you wanted to tether your bot, you certainly have a lot of access to power, you certainly have a lot of access to data, and your maneuver capability is higher. But this is the easy model. And in all honesty, I would be surprised if we allowed people to operate tethered in this way. The harder challenge and the one I think we want to see you guys do is the untethered remotely operated robot. But we will come out with guidance on that challenge pretty soon. But the problem with that untethered remotely operated robot is that under the water, radio frequency doesn't work. And so you're pretty much left with sound and maybe light. And so good luck on that. And we look forward to seeing what you come up with. Another challenge that you want to think about is where on the water do you want to be? And we will have separate challenges for that. But essentially there are three general positions. There's your floaters, there's your swimmers, and there's your bottom crawlers. So your floaters will obviously have more access to light and potentially communication. Your bottom crawlers will be in their most austere position, but they will at least be able to locate where they are in the water because they can touch the bottom. And interestingly and quite challengingly, there are your free swimmers and who even knows how you're going to figure out how to orient yourself in that condition. The other thing that you need to start thinking about is how to power it. So the way the military powers things in particular submarines is either nuclear power or diesel electric. These are probably not two categories you'll be allowed to use. So I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. That is about it for my explainer on UUVs. I didn't want to take it on too long, but I do want to say that I know that you see me wearing a bow tie and that bow tie is really because I want to dedicate this talk to a friend, a colleague and a mentor, Will Bundy, who passed away this last December. He was a huge part of the Naval War Colleges move toward innovation and he was a big proponent of thinking about all sorts of unmanned autonomous system and so I just wanted to say thanks and we miss you. And now that that's done. I figured I would have a little fun at the back end of this video so I tried to think about how to work in some sort of reference and a tie between cocktail and this video and I couldn't. So we're just going to make a cocktail. So what you're going to need when you move my camera in order to make a Manhattan in the style that I make a Manhattan is you're going to need some bourbon and you're going to need some vermouth. You're going to need some bitters, some cherries, some ice and a way to stir it. Let's give it a shot. Okay, so I tend to make a pretty stiff Manhattan so I just want to warn you in advance if you follow my proportions be prepared for a stiff drink. So you're going to start with your bourbon I have here something I bought from a local distillery filibuster. It's a really nice standard bourbon they call it a whiskey because they age it in a different way. So you're going to take two and a half parts bourbon. One, two, you're going to grab some vermouth the sweet vermouth I can use this thing called carpano antica, which is considered tomorrow but that's fancy words, just get a sweet vermouth. You'll learn over time what your favorites are and I do one part of that. And then I'm going to put my bitters in so I go with two different kinds of bitters I go with Angostura bitters and a little bit of what's called Tiki bitters, but really, you should play around as much as you want with better so you find out whether you like that deep to see flavor or something more peppery that that's entirely up to you. This in here. Healthy dash of Angostura bitters. And the thing that I find that's most interesting and important and also controversial is I believe strongly in the allowing the flavor of the cherry to come into the Manhattan. And so often what I'll do when I buy my cherries. I'm going to put the cherry in the green. And I see this was this is a cherry and they put just a little bit of the cherry juice into the Manhattan to give it just a little bit more cherry flavor. In the real world you should be starting this for somewhere 20 and 30 seconds to get that temperature way down there and to mix all the sugar together. I've forgotten my skimmer so I'll just put my finger down here. That's how you make a Manhattan. I will say for anybody who makes it all the way to the end of this video hit me up at Defcon 29 and I will definitely help you make your own Manhattan. I look forward to seeing you guys. I look forward to seeing the battle box. Take care. Thanks guys turn this one off. All right, let me turn my cameras on. Hey guys, I wanted to say thank you. I don't know why my camera's off. Share my screen. Who knows anyway, in all seriousness, the challenge that we're dreaming up for hack to see it we're hoping to play out in in 2021. And the kind of challenge we're really looking for is it's going to be a hard to try and try and do this the hard way right so. There are going to be two categories or classes and I want to talk a little bit about the swimmers and then I'm going to kick it over to Grant and Grant is going to talk a little bit about the floaters. And so, and in while I'm doing this, this, this part of the preso, feel free to text in some some questions and answers. And then after Grant talks a little bit about his challenge on floaters. I want to kick it over in a very weird way. You're going to listen to him on my phone because we can't get his audio enabled. And then Dave talk about undersea IOT, which is a growing commonality in the water. So, so okay, so here's the deal. Next summer, we would like to see you folks bring some bots to battle in the water. The swimmer class is going to hopefully operate untethered. Now, what does that mean? That means that all of that, all those advantages you have normally by attaching a tether to your bot so that it can go through an obstacle course aren't going to be there. In particular, one of your greatest challenges is going to be power and the other one is going to be comms with your bot to get to go through a system you have all the opportunities you want if you want to make it an AUV if you want to make it autonomous You got to be careful, right? Because it's an obstacle course. So here are the general rules and then as we go forward, we will be sending out specifics and guidelines. But in general, we're hoping that your bot will not be any bigger than checked luggage. Ideally, it will be about the size of carry on luggage. Why do we do that? We did that because we need you to get your bot to Vegas. And in order to get your bot to Vegas, it's got to fit in some luggage. Otherwise, you'll have a hell of a time getting it here. So checked luggage or carry on luggage and we'll be more specific about dimensions going on going forward. I can automatically tell that some of you're going to want to know, can it fit in checked luggage and then I can unfold it? Probably, but we'll figure it out. Ideally, your bot's going to be untethered for power. We can talk later about whether or not you can do a glider motion, which is your bot can be underwater and then come up for comms and then go back down again. That's a valid design. We'll think about it. And again, we'll have clearer guidelines here going forward. We're thinking no more than a thousand dollars expenditure. So for those of you who are in makerspaces, if you want to put a team together and start thinking about how to build this, we really don't want you to be buying the Gucci set. Like cobble this together, make it work, but do it the hard way and we're looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Like I said, reach out to me or reach out to hack the sea. We're at hackthesea.org and we will have in the coming weeks, the exact specifications and the gateways and challenges to get us moving forward. And if you have any other questions, I'm here, but at this point, I'm going to kick it over to Grant, hopefully, and Grant. And Grant, I'll talk about the floater class. Hello. How are you? All right. Very excited to be here. My name is Grant from Ocean Builders. We are sea stedders. We are the ones that are famous for building a floating home in the water in Thailand. Let me see if I can share my screen here. Maybe that's not working. Okay, maybe I can't share my screen. Can you hear me? Okay. Okay. Now something went wrong. Okay, there it is. Okay, so maybe I can't share my screen. I was going to show you some images of the original sea sted that we built in Thailand that was very famously attacked by the Thai Navy. And we ended up turning into a 10-day manhunt by the Thai Navy. So it was a very interesting story. Right now a book is being written about it as well as a screenplay for a movie. So I'll talk more about that in my official talk tomorrow. But I wanted to talk here about the challenge we're going to be doing for a floater. And for sea steding, something that's really important for us is to be able to have advanced warning if there's big waves or, you know, see what's actually going on in the area around us. So we would like to have some notice that there's big storms coming up and things like that. And also another purpose is to be able to observe the marine ecosystem around us. So we want to have to build what we call an aqua boy, like a, not an aqua boy, like a man, but the actual boys that float in the water and fill it with as many sensors that can give us very useful information as possible. So useful information can be water temperature, pH levels, salinity, turbidity. Maybe even cameras connected and collect some data or maybe even have machine learning. So we'll be putting together the specifications on exactly what all the details are. We already have a bit of a cheat sheet pinned on our channel. So you can go and download what we have already. It's already there. And we'll just give you some information on the ideas that we have for what that is and we'll revise that as we go along here. But we're pretty close to what we want for the specifications of what would be there. Ideally, we would have a maximum price and size. Of course, it should be something you should be able to bring to Vegas like Nina was saying, you should be able to transport it there. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. And it could look like something like a normal buoy that you see floating in the water that is kind of used for the red and green boys that you see for direction for boats to navigate through some waterways. It could be very similar to those in kind of shape. And it can take, you know, can take a under under the water. There would be a sensor array above the water. There can be sensors in them as well. So it's really unfortunate. I can't share my screen, but I'll maybe have that solved for the next talk tomorrow. And so I can go through a few of the details here that we had. There's also a link to join the challenge. So if anyone here wants to look at the challenge or look at some of the challenges we have that we're going to be doing over the next year. There's a link to a little survey sign up form where you can actually put your name and information and kind of check off what your interests are. And I think we have something very unique because we are like this is hack the sea. Everyone's here to find out how to hack the sea. And this is I think a really interesting opportunity. We're at the time where all these technologies now exist for us to be able to do some really fantastic things on the ocean. And so we're, we're out there doing it. We're, we're C status. We're actually building hardware. We're actually making things happen. And people have been talking about building a city on the sea for decades, but no one's actually done it. So we're actually the first ones that are actually putting hardware together and putting it in the water. So we're really excited about being able to reach people and reach out to. A community of hackers that likes building things and is passionate about building things and can help us to move everything forward. We're really looking for kind of here. We're here mostly to do a call of action. To say, okay, here's the opportunities. The sea is wide open with all these incredible opportunities of what we can do. And I think now is a really amazing time to actually bring all these things together, do a call of action here to anyone that wants to participate and help us do some really interesting things. So we'll give a longer talk tomorrow, have some videos and presentations around the whole thing. But I think we can probably pass it along to back to Nina, who's going to patch through with Dave on the phone. Thanks a lot, Grant. I, yep. So we got Dave on the phone. I do want to say just as a, as an addition to Grant's commentary here, we aren't looking to have people bring their proprietary source stuff right to the, to the battle. Because we're looking for open source hardware and software on this one, right? Want to be able to share. That's the way that works. And so look for that to be a requirement in, in, in the, in the battle guidelines. And so, all right, so this is awkward as hell, but I'm going to have Dave speak to you about the underwater IOT via my phone. So I'm just going to, I'm going to look to grant to give me the thumbs up to see if he can hear Dave Dave take it away. Can you hear me? I don't get too much feedback here. So I'm kind of flying blind here. I'll do the best that I can. So I'm kind of flipping through my PowerPoint here. And I didn't actually hear Nina's videos. So I don't really know what she covered in terms of UVVs. But, you know, just to sort of put things in, in context, I guess, UVVs basically unmanned undersea vehicles. Dave, I'm going to catch up. Stand by one. I'm going to catch up. We're getting way too much echo. Here's what I'm going to do. I think what we're going to do is we will talk into the whole world now. We're going to, we may try and ask you to dial in tomorrow and see if we can get you human plus status. So for the, for the universe out there. Unfortunately, Dave does not have human plus status and so the video and audio functions aren't working. And so we'll have him preso out probably following grant tomorrow, but we'll see if we can spin up in the meantime, I'm going to take some questions. And I'll see if I can grab Dave's slides, but, but just, yeah, and then, and then, just as a takeaway, the, the, the undersea IOT stuff is actually really getting built out pretty aggressively Dave what's the timeline you figure. And then the next 10 years he's next five or 10 years. Okay, as things progress with communications in the undersea. That's the critical path. Okay, Dave, we're going to, we're going to have you, we're going to have you. We're going to get you added to tomorrow's jam so I'll do that in the back and let me just take you in a now so we'll talk to you in a couple minutes Dave thanks so much for, we'll get there. And all right, great. If you want to, if you want to unmute, then we'll just take whatever questions come up, or we can just riff until then. Well, I'm really excited to hear about the underwater IOT from Dave. I wanted to hear it. So, okay, so why don't you and I talk about why don't you and I talk about like why does it what's what's so hard about you UVs like what why does that. We have plenty of flying drones like what's the what's the special challenge about about being under the water. And you can talk about this in the sea setting perspective, and I can talk about from the naval perspective but I'll kick it off to you first. Well, it's communication getting the data from whatever is when you're underwater you can't send a radio signal above, you know, it doesn't doesn't travel so that's the, that's the core problem. So if we go ahead, you know, if we can solve that or if there's a solution or some way of communicating that would be that would be incredible that could be a game changer. So I mean I think this is I mean this this can't be stressed strongly enough when I've been talking to roboticists who do undersea stuff. One of the core challenges and why they're people are talking about going autonomous with their robots is this problem of communication so for those folks who don't play around in the water stuff radio frequency, the way in which comms work wireless comms. You know the way in which our drones fly. That is not a thing you get to do under the water, you're left with two sources of signals under the water, unless you count. Dave's undersea IOT, but you're really looking at light and sonar grant do you know any other ways besides light and sonar sound and light. No, yeah, I'm not either so I'm curious to see what Dave has to see about an undersea IOT. But but really so now you're talking about a bot that that is either working on delayed comms, or if you're going to do light you got to worry about some other problems and so. There are also additional issues which is the bathymetry of the water so how deep is it you get different pressure the farther you go down you get different resistance on the on the hull itself. Great. Are you familiar at all what happens when you put lithium ion battery in case than a small shell and put it under water. No, I haven't. I haven't really researched much. Battery off gases what do you have then you have a you have a pipe. So, the other problem we're going to deal with in that in that UVV category is power. And so I this is a very serious issue that even if you get a really good lithium ion battery in that in that bot and it's operating autonomously underwater. So now you have to worry about whether or not it that the encasement the shell it's right is is secure enough so to so as to prevent a serious problem with that. The other way you could do it is you could try and create some floater that follows along but again this is really up to that to the hackers to figure out but. I'm going to try and push you guys on the edges of how much power can you pack into one of those things and make it operate on tethered and how are you going to get it to communicate and by the way if you get really smart ways to communicate. I'm just assuming other people are going to be messing with you to I could be wrong about that. But I'm guessing they're gonna so because of the under so the undersea problem is a real one. The other problem that we're talking about for swimmers is orientation. So for bottom crawling bots, they've got the ground they can orient right so now they're left with four directions forward back left and right. So similarly for floaters, you're going to be on the water surface forward back left and right, but if you're a swimmer, you have two more dimensions to worry about and that's up down. So thinking about trying to orient yourself in the water not only do you have to figure out where you are with no real touch points, but you've got six directions to worry about so. Again, I don't know how our hackers are going to deal with it. I don't know what they're going to do to solve their problem that I'm crossing my fingers for him. Grant, do you want to talk about the floater class. So actually now that you're mentioning it. We talked with Brian I talked with Brian about a number of different possible ideas and challenges. And we talked about having a stationary boy that collects data sensor data. And then we also talked about having a like a robo boat basically a robot boat that moves around. And so, for the, for the floater, are we talking about the moving version or the stationary. I, whichever one you're thinking about, I mean, this is for you guys to build out. Good luck. All right. Yeah. Okay. So then I think the, the simplest and probably the best thing to start with would be the stationary that's going to stay in one place. So that is for that is that technology is really critical for us because we would really like to know what the conditions are in our area and be able to put those stations. In remote areas and collect data before we even decide to ever go there. So we can actually be collecting data and see what the conditions are a year round. And if it's a hospitable place to put a C-STED. So it'll just be there collecting data maybe for a year before we would actually move there like would collect wave height data. So we'd actually be able to collect the data on whether the boy was going up and down what the rate of going up and down is. So we'll be able to see what kind of waves we have if we have really crazy out of control waves or if we have slow and steady, very calm that you'd actually want to live in. Because living in big waves is not necessarily fun to do. Our homes are actually we've engineered the home so they actually float above the water. So we're suspended on a pole that is about two and a half meters above the wave area. So that makes us very comfortable but still when it's really really when the conditions are really wavy then it's still not nice to live in. So being able to collect all that data in advance is really good. And we also really want to have clear data that can show the current state of the environment before we put a C-STED in that area. Because we don't want to three years from now cause any kind of damage to the local environment marine environment. We want to make sure that we're our homes were actually engineering them so that they can be eco restorative and not damaging. So for that the more clear data we get as a reference then that that really helps us out a lot. Grant, I have a question from the audience, but I wanted to do just a follow on question to what you're talking about, which is, is there a specific sort of climate to logical limit to where you're C-STED-ing? What I mean is there, you were talking about Thailand, which is a pretty tremendous space, but are there places where you're like this is just a terrible idea or the technology is not there yet? Is there an optimal zone for C-STED-ing? Yes, there is. We are in Panama right now and that is pretty much the optimal location to start because Panama is outside of the hurricane zone. There's a, I guess, 700 or 800 kilometer band around the center of the earth around the equator where you don't have hurricanes just because of the way the Coriolis effect of the earth works if you just can't get hurricanes in that area. So that's an ideal place to start because we don't have to worry about moving our home every year when the hurricane season starts again. So that's an ideal area. Obviously, a lot of people like being in warm tropical, beautiful areas and Panama has a lot of beautiful untouched green, jungly areas that are beautiful and having your C-STED close to land so you have a beautiful view of the mountains and the greenery is really nice. So that kind of environment is really ideal versus putting it in the North Sea in the Arctic somewhere or someplace really cold with 100 foot waves. That's definitely someplace you don't want to be. We can engineer them for different conditions like our base of our C-STED is actually built in the same base as an oil rig. So we have these deep spars which are poles that go deep into the water that create the buoyancy and then you have a very heavy weight far below them, below the spar and that gives you a lot of stability. So we have buoyancy as well as stability and then we can just scale that up to something the size of an oil rig which can be in pretty nasty conditions but it's probably someplace you don't want to live. Okay, so the question that came in is that do we see, are we aware of rovers or bots that use VR, virtual reality vision, navigation or virtual reality vision for operators? Do you see any advantage in that or more traditional methods of computer vision more useful? So this is a question about how the bot understands the environment that it's in. Grant, do you have any early thoughts on that and then I will dial through my mental Rolodex and try to remember a time for the Navy. Go ahead. I think that would be the ideal condition for us to have as far as giving people a really good idea of what living on the water can be like but actually like being able to have them either remotely or on site where they can actually put on a headset and swim through the water and see underneath the water and see what's going on. If we could give that kind of experience to people either remotely or on site that they could actually experience it in that way, that would give a dimension that people haven't really had before and to be super interactive and be able to explore the area. And so from a tourist kind of point of view or to get people kind of introduced to this whole new way of living and being which is totally foreign to most people living on the ocean. That's a big step for most people but if you can kind of have those baby steps to give them a vision of some pretty incredible sites that you wouldn't normally see that would be really, really fantastic. Yeah so Grant I agree like I think I think really is particularly for tourism. Getting people to sort of buy in and understand what it's like to be down there. I mean there's something. We are human right there's something compelling we are sense animals and if you can get more sense that a human can understand down there that's that is super helpful I will admit that to my knowledge Navy who is not particularly interested in human sense but is more interested in sort of targeting fixing tracking their their challenge set is already super hard. So for instance, so if you're if you're a big Navy asset and somebody's fired something at you from far far away under the water. Like your your biggest concern is by the time you figured out where it is. If it has any self guiding capabilities, then you're going to try and counterfeit that gets military really fast. You're going to try and counterfire but you have to try and guess where it's going to be. And so that's that's so a lot of that stuff isn't really VR relevant Navy is really thinking about how do I stop someone from hitting me really 99% of Navy's how do I avoid getting struck by something. And so, you know so but I love I love the question about VR because I think it makes me think that we're not thinking broadly enough in the Navy about the way to onboard these new capabilities grant I have another question for you if you don't mind. Okay, so it says, um, do the homes have any built in capability to collect data from the environment around them so like not just sort of like something you, but like in and of itself built into the infrastructure of the of the sea said so. We're building as many sensors as we can into homes to make them. Really, we want to make them smartest home on the sea. Well, they will be because there's not a lot of smart really smart homes on the sea because we're the only ones building. So, first level, we have a weather sensor that's on the roof that detects lightning strikes and detects. UV, the wind direction. And a whole host of data humidity temperature and parameter pressure and so there's there's a long list of things that it collects right from there. We will have sensors inside that will detect movement. Um, because we want to be able to chart what what the movements like if we are getting say if you're if you're away from your home for a while and then. Your home starts moving around for some reason we would like to be able to give you an alert. Maybe there's a big storm coming and you can call your neighbor and ask him to. Close the doors or something or close the windows or whatever. Or you can just do it remotely from your from your handheld. From your phone. So, we're building a lot of sensors like that. I can't, there's, you know, there's going to be standard sensors. But environmental sensors will have as many as we can, we would like to be able to detect the temperature of the water at different levels going down. To be able to turn each home basically into research station and document. The environment, the marine environment, we're in because we're out. We're not just trying to make homes on the water. We're trying to make homes that are. A positive contribution to the environment. So part of doing that is to be able to assess what the environment is like. And if we're improving it or not improving it, so we want to measure the turbidity, the alkalinity, the pH and all the same thing. Now, and other factors so we can, we can see if there's more life. After they've, our homes have been in the water for a, for a couple of years or a couple months or whatever. When we had our home in Thailand after only two months of being in the water. It went from being like a desert basically under water, which most of the water, most of the ocean is a desert. When you get far away from the coast. And we're 13 miles away from the coast. So in that case, after 2 months, we went from having nothing around to having thousands and thousands of fish. So we like having that kind of success story and we'd like to be able to reproduce that. So we're going to try to use sensors to collect as much data as you can. So this is a, I mean, so the I, so sorry, I don't want to make this. Super military, but please forgive me, Grant. It's, you know, I have to translate for the war types of us out here. So you're talking about an ISR environment and where all that data is going. And I wonder what so. From a person who doesn't want everything to be about the military, but knows. Once the military gets a hold of something. They're going to make it about the military. It's just, it's, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting side effect of that mindset. Do you have any security concerns about the data that you're collecting being used against the countries where your homesteads are. That's terrible. I'm super sorry I had to ask it. I'm sorry. Yeah, no security. Come on. Yeah. Well, that's why I already spoke with Brian, a couple, maybe a week ago. I'll go about having all of our systems have security threat analysis done on, on even each of our sensors. All the hardware we're going to be using all of our systems. And then just have people try to hack it and see what they can come up with and try to patch as many of those things as possible. So we're going to what we want to do is to be able to have all this data and you can, you can get your c instead and not put all the stuff in it. But I would like to be able to collect data. And we can, as if you're an owner of the C state, you can have the option of having that data where that's available to you and only you and that's encrypted. And you own, you're the only one that has access to it and we'll probably put it on a blockchain or whatever makes sense to. And then you can release the data if you want to share that with anyone else. If you want to share it with, like you can share it with just yourself, you can share it publicly or you could share it just with like a management company that can see. Okay, that the sensor at your house is showing that your water levels are getting really low and you need to replace your something on your home because it's at a critical level. Or if your battery levels too low and your, your power systems not going to be able to continue and you're away, then then we can come and help, you know, take care of that or management company can come in and take care of that. So, so there has to be, I think, different permission levels for what where your data is going to go and there has to be really good testing to make sure hackers have a hard time getting it as hard as possible. Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it's, it's interesting as we live in an era where seemingly innocuous information seemingly right I mean this is the big debate not to not to go super meta. But this is the big debate about like what's the harm in tick tock right like what is the harm in. We can just say a company, but we can also say a country, right, both can can be equally evil. What is the harm in all of this seemingly innocuous data being built up and so not to, and honestly, everybody should tune in tomorrow for for grants talk on C set specifically but just to sort of open open the door a little bit. What kinds of what kinds of concerns do you have about big data that like that you're collecting like what have you have you thought through what someone might use that stuff for I'm an optimist so I always look at as much I always look towards the positive so I'm looking at what amazing things we can do because I genuinely I'm not doing this because I need to do another project. I'm doing this because I love doing this and I want to do something that I think we can. I think when we build when we build homes on land we kind of destroy the land and you know clear cut the forest and that's not, you know, it's not a good. We're not being a good citizen of the planet, but I think there's what I saw last year in Thailand with so much life. All of a sudden just appearing after just two months that gives us an opportunity to actually be a good citizen of the planet. I like to. I see this as I always look at the ways of making an improvement to the situation and I think we can use data to help improve the restoration of coral reefs in the world. So I'm going to I'm going to plus up because there's a question that's come through a little bit further about the telemetry data that you could collect passively from these sea steds and I'm going to I'm going to ask it specifically because folks are asking and then and I realized we're going to run out of time here in about 14 minutes but and you and I will will again talk through and invite people to join us in next year's bot challenge, but the question again is are you guys thinking about this from an educational standpoint like this the data you're collecting doesn't I mean it. You guys are looking to benefit the environment directly, but I mean is there like is there some sort of. Partnership or subsidies like educational institutes like are you trying to partner to try in and and make all of this telemetry. Do you have effects beyond just the sea setting element. About two weeks ago we started reaching out to people that we could partner with. I basically have 150 projects, like huge projects going on simultaneously so and it's all filtering through me at the moment. That's how we know you're a hacker. Go ahead. So I'm trying to bring more people on board to help distribute some of the research because there's just so much I can do. But I would. Yeah, there's there's there's a lot filtering through me right now so we need to get a better handle on that and then. We'll be in a pretty good position to make do some really good things with the data. So, I guess partners, there's a lot of people we could partner with and that's just another project to find the right partners and I haven't started to we have started to look we started to reach out. We have a lot of people that would like to partner with us and we're open to if anyone has any suggestions, I'm, I'm all yours. Just send it in the chat or on the sea setting channel. Cool. Thank you so much grant. Alright, so we're going to round us out. Actually strike pot as a question for us that I think we should probably address, or at least take seriously as we build out our guidelines. Just to know to what degree. Our cuts products allowed so so consumer off the shelf products in building either your floater class or my swimmer class. Can we can we buy, you know, some local bot for 300 bucks and then just repurpose it and does that stay within our open source guidelines requirement. We're asking on the fly because I know you and I were going to try and sit down together and noodle out exactly what kinds of limitations we want to slap on these folks for next year. But, but do you want to do you want to take a stab at cuts products and and then I'll and then I'll, I'll give my preliminary thoughts on that. I really want to have this done in the open source and I guess if that interferes with that, then that's like kind of a kind of kills it so if we have, if you have, if you're buying something off the shelf and then modifying everything on top of that I don't think enough that that would give you enough of a open source component. Maybe if there's a consumer part that I don't know is maybe like I don't know an off the shelf robot arm or something that could be plugged into the whole system. And that wasn't an essential part of it then, then I guess that could be acceptable but if it's, if you're just modifying an off the shelf aquatic drone and I don't, I don't think that would be like I think that if the guts the core guts of it are, are commercial then and closed source then I think that would be killer. I think I think I agree again we're we're doing this on the fly as we dream this up. And I'm in before we wrap out I want I'm going to have grant remind us of what he thinks the the earliest and early speculation, what the floater class requirements are going to be and I know he's been working up a sheet on that. But I, I'm inclined to say that if you want to use a COTS product for pricing components right so we have $1000 limit on the on the swimmer class. If you want to use a COTS product, you, you would at a minimum need to show me that it has been reverse engineered such that you are really economizing on costs, or, you know, private production of a servo. You, you would at least have to prove to me that like no look it's been reverse engineered and those reversed engineered components are available, open source, and so a person can sit down and do that stuff. I am just cutting to the chase. And I think that's fair but you get to show me that it was that it was the case and I think that again, so for the, for the, for the swimmer class we're going to have some gates that people are going to have to go through throughout the year because we want to make sure that by the time we get to the to the pool in Las Vegas. We have got some, you know, no shit seriously interesting bots, they might be dumb, right, they might be running into the wall repeatedly but then we've got some some bots that you know at a minimum like our full maker gear thought through and are going to behave in ways that we had not anticipated in part of the fun of the hacker space is just giving it a shot and seeing all the variation that emerges, one of the most beautiful parts of this community is that everybody's teaching us different ways to go at a question. So we're not trying to close that down. In fact, I'm trying to open it up. But we don't want this to be about cuts right we don't want this to be about we want we want to we want you to show us all the ways in which you're coming at. I don't want you to tether for power in a curiously interesting way. You know there's a lot of there's a lot of urine in Vegas pools maybe you can use that as a power source hard to say, but but you know sort of speculate and then think your way through it. So if we have any luck, we will be able to secure a Las Vegas pool to do this in. And so, you know, really just try and get a tan. A little bit so that you don't die under the Vegas sun and okay so great. I want you as we ramp out of the eight minutes left. Give me again just to recap for the folks. Give me the primary challenges, the floater class are going to come up against one of the primary you're like this, I think this is really the the issue. Well, the big piece of it would be to be able to collect data and store it but also send it and sending a distance on the water could be could be a little bit tricky could be a little bit challenging. Because we may not have a station nearby where we can just we're just sitting there waiting for the data to come in. But to be useful, we have to be able to collect it. And some of these could be fairly remote in areas that are hard to get to so it would be very advantageous to have as long of the transmission period as possible I don't know how I will test that in Vegas. Good luck. Yeah, so maybe we'll have a team three miles away and seeing if they can pick up the sensor data from the pool. That could, that could possibly work. So that's going to be really important. Being able to check wave height is really important. Interesting. Yes, I'm sorry, I haven't been thinking about surface vehicles. Oh, you're totally right. Okay, go on. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. We would like to be able to know how how big the waves are what what the the the period between the waves is. So all that data is really useful. We'd like to find out if there's a way to find out the direction of the waves from sensors. And I was trying to figure out myself how how I would do that and I haven't put too much thought into it but I haven't come up with the solution on how to do that, just with with sensors unless we brought AI or machine learning and had cameras to be able to do. I have so many ideas right now. Go on. Sorry. Flat surface in a couple levels and you know, you know, sorry, go ahead. Then. So, just standard. We can collect standard weather data as well. Probably we'd want to know lightning data as well if there's a lot of lightning strikes in that area. We might not love to be in that area if there's a lot of lightning and coming down in that area. So that's a condition. You know, so we're going to see which are the most important items for us to have on this list as a final specification. Solar powered would be nice so they can last as long as possible and we don't have to go out and change the batteries every every week. If it could be continually charged that would be that would be ideal. So those are, I think some of the more important things. And of course, collecting any kind of water data we can like pH or salinity temperature, turbidity cameras under the water that can identify fish with machine learning would be really cool as well. Oh, interesting. Wow. So that's so honestly that's, that's going to be VR right that is going to be I mean I don't, I don't think anyone's got to. I don't think anyone's got a massive database of fish signatures. I mean maybe tuna, if you're lucky. Gosh, I don't yeah that's that's really interesting I hadn't thought about that before but yeah what does the fish look like and how is it not a plastic bag and interesting interesting okay. All right. So from a naval perspective, and you folks know me like I don't have to talk. I will talk from this perspective because I think, because I think it's different because I think it's complete contrast into what into what grants talking about and I love what grants talking about I think it's fascinating it's amazing I think it's useful for the future. In contrast right like what are some other kinds of challenges so grants talking about survival of a floater he's talking about persistence he's talking about integrity of the data long enough to you can fetch it back and I think that all those things also matter. When it comes to things like how do how does a navy for a jacked power or at least protect vessels that are going along in the sea like one of the issues of play for navy is for all navy it's not just the US Navy is how do we protect. Where so much of the world's commerce comes from so for folks who don't know, right all the items, probably the vast majority items that you have running around in your house, come to you via a boat, they come via a ship, they float on the surface. And one of the things that navies and coast guards are required to do is ensure the safe passage of these objects right and if we're all impatient Amazon consumers, then we want it now. And so the question is, you know how do you prevent those kinds of delays how do you ensure freedom of navigation freedom of the sea so it's a navy question. For navy. These, the, the, the biggest concerns are about following things. The biggest concerns for the navy are which of these we call them white, white, we call those white ships white ships being ships that aren't aren't out there with a military capacity they're there to, you know, bring tourists around or they're there to move cargo from China to the US right this is white. So how do you tell the difference between white and other forces, how do you then once you've identified these other elements that could be doing terrible things or might be trying to terrible things. How do you follow them in a meaningful way without having to send out a ship and and literally follow it right. And so really the question for the floaters flimmer class for us is about locating something. Almost passively right from an IR ISR perspective almost passively just just being able to sort of map who's who in the zoo and where are you heading this week and honestly so Gary Kessler is going to talk to you folks actually in the next hour I think about hacking AIS and AIS is the system by which all ships voluntarily share their data they're tracking data as they transit the seas, and there's a real reason to be concerned about that system. And so, so worry about that those securities that security in the next session. Anyway, so we're going to say goodbye because I think we're down our last minute. I love you all. See you all soon and I miss. Go ahead. Grant say goodbye. Thank you everyone. I look forward to seeing you tomorrow on my talk. I think it's at 10 o'clock in the morning. Thanks everybody. Bye.