 Hi, welcome to On the Waterfront. I'm your host, Mariah Riggs. And this month, I'm really excited to have Zach Campbell, who is the director and founder of Friends of the Frame, as most of you might know, as the original Murrow plant. Moran plant, sorry, totally already messed that up. And we're gonna talk today with Zach about what's been going on down at the plant. I'm sure you guys have seen the work on the bike path and all the changes down there and see what we can look for in the future as the building changes and evolves and becomes more ingrained in the culture of Burlington. Zach, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me here, Mariah. So before we get into the frame, just a little bit about yourself. I heard you're from Vermont, where are you from? I grew up splitting time between Shelburne and Burlington, so greater Burlington area, you could say. Yeah, no, I was here through high school and then moved away after for about 10 years of New York City and Boston. And then was hoping for a long time to make the move back and finally got a job offer and came back in 2018. So I've been back here five years now and loving it, loving in Burlington again. So I guess that kind of leads me a little bit to, because back in 2018, how long have you been involved with? So yeah, funny enough, I actually went to high school with Eric Crockenberg and Tad Cook who were very involved in the last kind of big redevelopment push for the Moran plant. I was living in Boston at the time that that was all unfolding, but was following closely from afar and just thought it was a really awesome project and super cool and remembered those guys from high school. So when I moved back in 2018, it was kind of right after everything had come to pass with new Moran and things not moving forward, but I got to reconnect with Eric and Tad a bit, just kind of, hey, I'm back in town, like. What are you guys up to? And yeah, and so we just kind of hung out a couple of times and then Eric reached out to me a few weeks later, I had taken a job as a construction cost estimator, which is what brought me back to Vermont. Eric reached out a few weeks a month or so later and was kind of saying, hey, right now the city is looking at different demolition proposals for Moran and it would really be a shame to see that place totally go away and not have anything left for people to enjoy or like this iconic thing for Burlington. It'd be really great if we could figure out some way to salvage a piece of it that could then become publicly accessible and he kind of had some ideas about how to do that. And I was like, oh, totally, like I'd love to be involved with this and help put together some sort of alternative to demolition proposal. And that makes sense. So that explains a lot. So as a construction cost estimator, it was like the perfect thing for you to kind of fall into because that's really where they were. Yeah, yeah, so that's what I was doing at the time and I'd gone to, I'd done my master's in architecture so I had like kind of the, I was a little bit of a design nerd and an adaptive reuse nerd. And so I was just super jazzed about that proposal. It was totally the kind of project that I was gravitating toward like on my own and like thinking about like the High Line in New York is a really good example of that kind of typology of a former industrial or infrastructural space becoming this public park in a really site-specific and unique way that can become a destination and a draw. So. It's like reclaiming, you know, which is a huge kind of urban redevelopment, you know, movement right now. Yeah. And sort of these urban spaces, you know, and a lot of the brutalist kind of like 50s and 60s stuff and like revamping it for another generation. Yeah, totally. And so it kind of spoke to me in that way and you know, it's also like a, it's fun to get to imagine something and then figure out like, is it feasible and how much would it cost and like could it actually happen? Like that whole part of the process was fun for me. And so Eric and I kind of started with a couple of other folks starting to put something like that together. And at the same time, we kind of caught wind that CEDAO in the city was also exploring this alternative to demolition, mostly because the estimates for demolition were beyond the budget that the city had. So they were trying to get creative. That's what I heard. I heard it was pretty intense and there was some remediation and stuff that they had to do with. Yeah, yeah. I mean, most of those buildings built back then. We're built with all sorts of fun. Oh yeah. Yeah, the greatest hits of contaminants were all present. All pre-silence spring. So it's real. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so what ended up happening in like 2018 kind of into early 2019 was Eric and I and the city, we each kind of developed a proposal like, you know, 50 to 75% of the way there in a silo. And then we all came together and we were like, let's see what overlaps and is there any sort of, you know, common thing that emerges as that proposal? And that ended up becoming what was known as the frame concept, which stands for fearless relook at Moran Electric is a fun fact. Wait, wait, wait, wait, say that again. This is very interesting. I didn't realize. So yeah, so the, so fearless relook at Moran Electric became the frame proposal. And then I, you know, the name kind of stuck for obvious reasons. Yeah, it fits so well. Yeah. And so that was, that was really my kind of inroads to the project in terms of being involved. And so that was like early 2019. It was approved unanimously by city council to take the, take the budget and say, yes, let's do this, which was awesome. And then, and then I guess that also leads me to, you know, the design has this very monumental kind of iconic look. And so did that come about during that process or when did you guys look at like the design of the actual frame? Yeah, so one of the things I just always loved about the Moran plant when it was the Moran plant was that really iconic like stepped form. Like you just, there's nothing else that really kind of looks like that, that we experience as people on like a day to day basis. And so when you encounter something like this, it immediately kind of like draws you to it or draws, drew me to it. And you know, I think that was something that I was excited about preserving in some way, like that form that you see. And then some other things about the building as well. I mean, it has that giant city of Burlington sign, which is like such a cool kind of source of pride locally, or I saw it as being like, hey, what if that thing could light up and you know, you would see it. And so, you know, I think a lot of the actual design, it was actually derived more by like subtraction of building materials. Yeah, no, well exactly. And yeah, so, you know, there was some back and forth, like do we leave any brick or do we take it all away? And, you know. That's interesting. And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure too is also like looking at like the cost components too and also the design and how, because it's basically almost like this book and monument on sort of the bay on the waterfront. Yeah. And so, you know, having it be a structure that has sort of that iconic shape and stuff is very important. And, you know, that's, I mean, how much of it was, you know, kind of imparted by design or how much of it was imparted by like how much the costs were through the process. Yeah, so that was a huge driver obviously because it was a contaminated space, the structure needed shoring and stabilization. And so really like most of the money went toward like all the stuff you have to do to make it safe for people to inhabit. And then, you know. So that's also a really important point, you know, because I hear about this like, oh, you know, Muramplan and what, and I'm like, you understand, like when they took it down, it was a remediation project for the whole city. It was something that actually had to happen. Yes. And so if you could explain that a little bit to our viewers because I think sometimes that's not a part of the conversation. Yeah. That people realized that it was something that really had to be taken care of because it was a potential hazard to people on the waterfront. Oh yeah, big time. And yeah, you know, I mean, the money that was set aside to do something at Muran, which is really kind of like, that's what it said on the ballot. It was like a resolution for the Muran plan, like whatever that meant. And so really that meant either redevelop it with a public-private partnership or probably demolish it. And so when the decision was made to try to reclaim that space and make it publicly accessible and open up a new stretch of Burlington's waterfront for the first time, you know, there are all sorts of legal requirements. You know, the EPA had quite a list, but yeah, you know, to achieve that. And so really what you see down there now represents the things that had to happen to open up that space, plus like a little bit of extra kind of sprucing up to try to make it inviting in some way. And you know, a common reaction going down there now is people go, oh, this is cool, but like, when are they gonna finish building it? Or what are we gonna do here? And I understand that because what's been done to date really represents kind of like the first phase of this whole frame concept. And that's the cleanup and remediation phase. But, and you know, it was important to get to a place where it could actually become usable. And that's been a lot of the work that I've been involved with, you know, kind of in the short term is trying to figure out ways to introduce new uses or inspire people to use the space in new ways. And I think that's an important point too when talking about the project because what happened, especially in that first phrase, is that it was repurposed for another generation. And it was unusable space that had basically been sitting there, let's be honest, rotting for a couple decades. Yeah, definitely. Which I'm sure you guys experienced. And so that's like a really big part of it. And I think sometimes that's lost in the conversation around it. Yeah. And so, you know, so all right, so when was the actual, you know, and I'm trying to think about it, was it done during the pandemic, most of the remediation? Yeah, so construction started in, it actually started during the pandemic. And then dragged on because of, you know, certain things that came out of the pandemic, like lead times on electrical equipment and, you know, just it sat, it continued to sit kind of mostly done, but still kind of a construction site until like the end of 2022. So it hasn't even been open for a year yet. Which is exciting. Yeah. You know, and also I'm always wonder, I always wonder people who have been down to the bike path or whatever, their experiences being at the space, right? Yeah. And how they've been able to interact with the space. Definitely. And I've spent a lot of time there, especially this summer and I was kind of blown away by like how many different users that space has, you know, there's a lot of that, there's more activity than I would have expected in and around that space and really kind of like all ages and backgrounds and people who are visiting and people who, you know, walk their dog every morning and that's part of their route now. And yeah, some people who just completely stumble upon it and they see this giant red steel structure and they're like, well, what is this thing? Let me go look and, you know, I would be down there and I guess it kind of looked enough like I had a purpose down there. So people would be like, what is that? Like I answered that question a lot. And we actually, one of the things I worked on bringing to the site this summer, we have a big shipping container down there that's been great for storing, you know, some of the things we've been using but we painted it red to match the structure so it was a little like nicer looking but we just put some really great like informational panels on the long side of it. So we've got a whole timeline explaining, you know, what is this, what, why is it looking like this? What's next? And try to answer like a lot of those kind of FAQs that we were getting. Yeah, so when you get the person who just happens to be a passerby, right? Who doesn't know or people from out of town or whatever, then they can get like the whole history. Totally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It seems like stage one. Yeah, oh, 100% and then as part of that too and kind of part of the direction that I'm hoping the frame can head in terms of, you know, how it's used and who it's used by is, there's a couple of really cool opportunities for engagement down there. Actually on the shipping container as well, there's like a big blackboard and some chalk out there and you can actually draw a picture and idea or something and you can scan a QR code with your phone there and send that off to me. So the Moran plant has always been this place that I think a lot of people have been inspired by or it's kind of brought about these like big crazy ideas which I think are great and so fun to see. And so I wanted to have an opportunity there for people to go and like still have that experience with the space because, you know, there's definitely a lot of people that are like, just tell me what this is. Like, I don't know. But other people, you know, come in there, they're like, oh, I see trees growing up through this and you know, to be able to share those ideas and start really kind of hearing from people on a continual basis is important I think for the future of the space. Yeah, and it's also interesting because it's, you know, not only is it a structure or like a monument on some level, it's kind of a piece of structural art. Oh yeah, definitely. And so, you know, I guess that leads me to my next question is what have you done so far as far as, you know, like what people can do with the frame? Yeah. So I focused over the last year really on kind of like three or four major categories of things. I'd say one was like placemaking and activations. So I kind of categorized that as things that are introduced to the site that stay there that people can come and interact with. And a great example of that is the hanging bench swings that actually hang off of the steel structure along the western edge by the lake. We have three of them out there now and there's actually a wheelchair accessible version of that swing coming next month that's like been in the works for a long time, but it's very complicated to design and fabricate a fully ADA swing. But yeah, we'll have those kind of on the western side and those have been a big hit with people and we worked with Generator and the team over there to design and fabricate those. Yeah, Meg was very proud of her work with the swings. Yeah, yeah, no, they were great to work with and they're actually the most recent swing was fabricated by as part of their skills training program that they have. Which is great. I don't know how many ADA compliant swings they get. Yeah, yeah, no, I think this is gonna be like the coolest wheelchair accessible swing ever when it shows up. All right, well done. When it shows up. Bruleys and should have the coolest wheelchair accessible swing. I agree, yeah. That's awesome. So activations is one of them. There's also like some picnic tables and things. Well, that creates active space too. And there's something to be said about a monument where you actually have things that move in it. Where humans are, you know, they have these great, by the Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal, they have these great sea sauce. That have lights. I don't know if you've ever seen them. If you haven't checked them out, they're amazing in your Montreal, go check them out. Next to the Contemporary Art Museum. And at night, they're particularly fun. But, you know, having things that engage and like what you're saying, you know, those shared spaces, those, you know, third places that people can go to that are activative and exciting and it almost then becomes a destination. Yeah, absolutely. And that's totally the goal because, you know, while it is in a great location, it's not the easiest location to get to for everybody. And so really people need a reason to go there, especially like when it's not a beautiful summer day, which like, you know, there's a lot of activity kind of around the space then. But, you know, we want to create opportunities for people to go to the frame because they could have an experience there that they couldn't have somewhere else. And so part of what we've been doing is trying to figure out what is that and how do we make it happen in the near term. Another thing is just, you know, hey, what are some things that make this a nice place to be? So places to sit down. Another thing I worked on is bringing free public Wi-Fi there, like high speed Wi-Fi. So you can bring a laptop. Wait, wait, wait, there's Wi-Fi at the frame? There is. Did you guys hear that? That's really exciting. There, yeah, no, I'm super excited about that. That's very cool. So you can go sit on a swing and look at one of the best views in the state. And be on your Zoom meeting. And work from home? Yes, you can. I love that. Yeah, so that was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, that's another thing. We worked with a local startup called Wasted that you've probably seen in the orange porta-potties. The very famous porta-potties I saw all summer. Yeah, so we had a couple of their units down there and they were awesome to work with. So, you know, just... That's great. So there's actually, so you guys are really getting functionality down there. Trying to, yeah. Trying to make it a place where people don't just kind of move through it and leave or walk by it and leave. You know, opportunities to linger and be comfortable and have experiences. And so the kind of biggest real attempt at that was we planned a series of outdoor movie nights over this last summer, which... How did that go? Well, trying to do anything outside this past summer was a challenge. So we ended up canceling about half of them, but the worst... I did an outdoor music series. I fully understand. I know, I know you did. And yeah, your music series was happening. Like a few hours before the movies would start. I know, we were kind of in tandem. I know. So we were probably both calling vendors on the same day. We were trying to create these great nights for people. I know. And unfortunately it was biblical deluge, like the entire summer as we all know. Or it would be beautiful and then right as the event was gonna start, the clouds would roll in and then hang out and then the thunder would, you would hear it and say, okay, that's it. And there is a theme in the industry that electrical and water do not mix. I've heard that, yeah. So I will say we had like three events in particular that were great and really kind of showed like a proof of concept of like, oh, people would come and do this and come down here. And we had, you know, lawn games out and we had music playing and there was some food and drinks. So it was really kind of mostly about being on the water on a nice summer evening. And then the movie, it turned out, was kind of like a bonus on top of that. People would come and they were all free. So people would come and stop in and leave and it was great. I mean, it was really cool to see so many folks come out and that mix of kind of like visitors and locals happened very organically. And it's cool too because you kind of get the waterfront park feeling, but you don't have to buy the $60 ticket. Yeah. You know, it's the same kind of thing. You can go do lawn games, you can have fun, you can have a whole experience on the water. It brings people down to the waterfront. Yeah. And that's like another huge piece of what I would like, the role I would love the frame to play kind of within the larger waterfront context. I think, you know, when you talk to somebody about Burlington, a lot of people will say like, oh, it's a college town and it has Church Street and I'm a huge believer that it has a waterfront town. Like it has an amazing world-class waterfront that... I can't argue with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the... Yeah, right. Exactly. We sit in front of the screen. Sure. Yeah. But, you know, I think, and we've talked about this too, you know, bringing people down to the waterfront to really create a district almost of the city that is a destination year round, I think would be... And that's kind of the hard question. It is. I mean, and we love our waterfront, but we don't have things like hot germ, you know, geothermal springs. Like they do in Iceland. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes getting people down there in January, I know very well to be tough. It is tough. Yeah. And, you know, I kind of, I think, okay, well, like people will go outside in the freezing cold because they go to the mountains and bundle up and it's windy and cold up there, but there's something that you do there that you can't do somewhere else, you know, nearby. And so really like, I think what's key is figuring out like what are those things? And how do we... Winner opportunities. So actually, that's another thing as I talk to you, you know, I wanna really plug the website, theframevermont.org, if you guys wanna check out what they're doing, make sure you get there. Friends of the Fame, definitely check out theframevermont.org, which is the website. And you know, if you have suggestions for in the winner, because I do think you're right, there's something about how easy it is to bring it up, to get people down to the water in the summer. You don't really have to do much. No. But, you know, in winner, does that beg the question of things like, I know at Highlight, they do like the big burn. Yeah. And like things like that. So things that center around fire, ice sculpture. Yeah. You know, the only other thing I could really think of is, and I don't know if you're even allowed to do this in Burlington, but ice fishing? Ice fishing could be cool. I mean, you know what I'm saying, ways to explore the lake from the frame as like an access point for the public. Yeah, totally. Right? And how do you engage with the lake in the winner? Yeah. And you know, I mean, we, you know, and I know at Hula, people go swimming every day. Yep. At the lake, you know. But how does Friends of the Frame kind of use that to kind of create a community sense of ownership for six months out of the year when our natural instinct is to sit at home by a warm fire with a hot beverage? Yes. And certainly, you know, being warm is important too. So like, how does that kind of fit in? And I think you touched on some themes that are in my mind a lot. I know like new ways to engage with the lake on the Burlington waterfront is like huge for me, right? Because you go down to Waterfront Park now and there's, you know, there's a lot of different things to do. And you can walk by the lake. You can dock your boat. You can go to the fishing pier. You can sit and have a meal at the boathouse. But what are those kind of, what's the untapped potential that maybe the frame could be a good place for? And so things like, you know, what if it was the best spot to sit and watch a sunset and like really kind of be leisurely about it? And if, and then, you know, coming back to the winter, you know, what does happen in that zone right there? And I guess, you know, I mean, since we're kind of brainstorming, I can't help myself. You know, maybe another thing too is, you know, I'm just kind of thinking, partnering with different groups too, like, you know, are there yoga groups that would love to utilize the frame, you know, for like, you know, a Friday afternoon yoga thing, right? You know, and they could come down there and utilize that or sign up as a community kind of space. Totally. Where they could bring people down to do those kinds of things. Yeah, I would love to see the frame and really the role of friends of the frame to be as people who kind of facilitate partnerships and use of the space, but aren't really like creative directors, mostly just about, hey, somebody has something they want to do here, let's work with you and help you make that happen because we're kind of experts in like how to do stuff here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like we can facilitate it, but we can't program for you. Yeah. And I know, because I program and I know how hard that is, that's a lot of heavy lifting. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so that's another thing too, I think to talk to everybody who's watching right now. If you have ideas or partnerships or things you want to have the frame do for you and for our community, what you need to do is reach out to theframevt.org. Theframebtv.org. It's BTV. BTV. I missed a letter. That's my fault. That's my fault. We'll put it up on the, oh look, there it is. They have been to work. I'm schooling me. Thank you. Yeah, theframebtv. In which makes more sense.org. And so, you know, here's another one of my weird questions. I always wondered, how did you come up with doing it, Brad? That wasn't me. That was the, so Freeman French Freeman was the architect and design lead on the first phase of the project. And they actually really wasn't involved in like the design development piece of phase one. And so, yeah, that was, that just kind of the frame was red one day and I was like, wow. And it's really grown on me. I'm like, I love the way how it kind of shows up differently at different times of the day, like and from a distance versus up close, you know, far off it's got kind of more of like, you can almost, it almost looks like, you know, rusted steel and there's like really industrial. And then you get up close and it really like pops, especially if the sky is super blue and it's like an amazing contrast. I mean, between green and blue, it's the perfect contrast. And I was actually gonna give you a lot of credit for that. Oh, well, I can't take that credit, but. And somebody with an art background has this state, you know, the red, the red's inspired because it is surrounded by this green and blue. So the red is a contrast to that. And it works really well with that. And it's a lovely, it's a lovely color. I totally agree. I was gonna give you all the credit for that. So I guess, you know, here's another great thought. Where do you see the frame in 10 years? That's a great question. So I think one of the biggest strengths of the frame and also one of the biggest challenges is that it's incredibly open-ended. And I think the key to kind of making use of that is and why I organized Friends of the Frame in the first place was to act as a facilitator so that that public space and, you know, the sculpture or the literal framework and like under which and around which and in which creativity could unfold so that the space could actually kind of evolve over time, season to season, year to year to reflect really like what the community feels is important or would like to see there. And so, you know, where I hope things go in 10 years is that maybe we have a really good system for doing that kind of in perpetuity. I would like to see another phase or two of improvements to the space. I really mean more kind of at the ground level and landscape-wise, accessibility-wise. Think if you go there now. I became involved with the project as we were kind of figuring out like, how do we make this as accessible as possible with like almost no money left in the initial budget? And so there's sure-pack gravel paths which it's not a permanent solution. It's kind of the best we could do with the funding at the time, but I would love to see something more permanent so that the frame could continue to be more accessible for all people. I would love to see, you know, some additional landscape and vegetation and just kind of the things that kind of round out the whole project. Exactly, yeah. And it seems to like with friends of the frame is what you're trying to do is create sort of this community context. Yes. Where everybody can kind of chip in and make it their own. For sure, 100%. And so that's again, I think really important to stress. As we talk to everybody out there is that, you know, the frame has been given back to the community of Burlington. And so it's now our job to utilize it. And make it as dynamic as we'd want it to be. Like, you know, and the way to do that for us is to talk to Zach and to go to the website and, you know, come up with ideas for it because it really is a really remarkable space. It's been given back to the people of Burlington in a way that actually can be used by the people of Burlington, thank you. And one of the best locations in town. So, you know, again, how do we interact with it? You know, are there groups that want to go down there and do like painting, you know, by the lake? Or, you know, meet as groups down there. I mean, all those things are possible. It's just a matter of people knowing it's actually there and that it is a resource that belongs to them in the city of Burlington. Totally. Which is super exciting. Hey, Zach, thank you so much. Thank you. It was wonderful to have you on the show. It was great to be here. Thank you all for being here. I will see you right back here next month. And thanks again. I'll see you next month. Take care. Bye.