 Do we I said that'd be pretty funny police officers car gets a ticket by another police officer that'd be awesome Yeah, he was pissed So I don't think we have introductions, but I think we all like know each other because it's a small group Sure oh Yeah, we should introduce ourselves however good point for the camera Because we're not the only people Why don't we start with major Jonas Looking there yeah I'm David here with your training general's office found Stevens have a Nike tribe James Pepper Department of State's attorneys and chairs ACLU Vermont It's on that thread and long road chair Lisa Menard Department of Corrections Rick got your criminal justice training council Monica Weber Department of Corrections and Gary Scott state That was easy Mmm Minutes did everyone have a chance? I sent them out like I kind of compulsively I'm sorry Thank you, yes, we really do have to say a real thank you Yeah, no I Just like personally love I had one clarification though on page it's in the dialogue when we were asking questions of Karen Richards from And I was Synopsized to saying that DSP will often submit our investigation results to the Human Rights Commission And I don't think I said that because we don't do that So just for clarification, so we need to amend that Okay, where you tell me where we are Yes Is Can that just be struck yes, and that we and that would be fine so we can just do that. Yep great Let's do it Okay All favor I All posed Abstaining we're striking that sentence and then otherwise any other addenda Anything else that somebody might have to say about the minutes because we're gonna post these now So I just want to make sure that they're actually people feel that they accurately represent what went on at the meeting I've already gotten guff that they weren't posted, you know Five minutes after we were done So well, I I didn't feel that doesn't feel comfortable to me I mean we have to approve the minutes. It's just sort of put them off, you know I mean before we decided So anything else no anyone want to move that we just approved them Great second All in favor I I all posed And there are no abstentions all officially abstains, so wasn't okay. You can abstain grand It passes minutes are approved and that so David we need to I know So we have to strike that one. We have to strike and then post them online Are you I have that motion noted, but James obviously has the actual Oh I have you have the I have you sent them to me, so I'll strike it Okay, and then I'll send it to you. Okay, and then you can with you know the love of God and so on there won't be another internet crisis and Don't put down swirls Yeah Did you send an email with the minutes to the panel I did I think I might not have been on that distribution We weren't we can check that later, but oh, I'm sorry. I'm really terribly. Sorry. I thought it's probably my fault. I You were not It was a personal I didn't think so, okay It was because Julia was here. That's right. So you were you were just Yes So I'm yes, I will I'll strike in I will send it to you. I'll figure out the list again because obviously my brain is Announcements we sort of had started with that just informally What? Okay talked about Who's not here? We've already done that Um We let's see Rebecca Turner is also not able to make it this evening. She had child care problems She was hoping to Send Someone in her place, but it was fairly last minute. So not certain the fact can happen Sheila Linton is on vacation Said to me I may call in don't bet on it I'm not betting on it So that's that's the other Another announcement I Wrote as many of them down. It's hard when they come in at the last minute You know, you got it. You got an email at like two o'clock in the afternoon and you're driving And you can't look at your hand Didn't I think that's it The other thing I want to say and this is slightly this may be a little awkward I There was and you may all know this there was an open letter that was sent to me By the former chair and vice chair of this panel There was a an open letter That was the subject of which was the report Which the panel you will recall at a meeting what three meetings ago Voted to withdraw. I wrote the letter that was asked of me to Tim Ash and Mitzi Johnson Formally withdrawing the report the open letter was Angry about this I Responded I did not respond as an open letter because Frankly, I just felt like We voted on this We have already dealt with it and I didn't feel like I wanted it to just become broad again So I responded What I'm telling you this for is to let you know that if anyone wants to see it in terms of transparency transparency Please email me Don't just tell me right now because like I'm like already Worried about staying awake driving back to Putney tonight So if you tell me right now, I will not remember but if you email me I will be more than happy to forward both the open letter and my response to it to you Are there does anyone have any questions about that? I just felt like I needed to bring that up I did not want to spend a whole lot of time on that We have such little time as it is That I didn't feel like it was something that I wanted to make a real agenda item Okay, so that you should know that no that that's what that's What went on? This was probably I Don't know what was it a month ago at this point probably yeah about a month ago, but this happened so And I wrote immediately back Ways forward I wanted to spend a little time talking about that because that came up last time not quite at the end but close to the end and Actually, you chief don had raised a really good point that's that it's in the minutes You were concerned about whether we would submit a report on a rolling basis Or whether we would wait until we had a complete document I don't know if you remember saying that but you it was a good point Yeah, the gist was more or less because we were working only on six a we were going to do six a submit it We'll wait till we're done with whatever we're going to do within the submit it So that was the only question right in case people didn't remember and I Think that that's a good conversation For us to have now. I'm sort of sorry. There aren't more people here to have it But I think I don't think we really have time to wait for a larger group of people I asked at that moment that we have that discussion in a later date because I think it was like I don't know 20 of eight or something like that and everybody was getting a little, you know Karen gave such a marvelous Presentation that everybody was just kind of drooling quietly and I think that we needed to go home So I said can we do this later? So let's do it. Now. I I want to just put forth some stuff. I am not I want to start off by saying this is a Suggestion I'm making I am facilitating. I am not a dictator. I am just the chair I am just putting forth an idea about how we might go forward here And I'm hoping other people will have other ideas or people will look at me and go a time. That's absolutely ridiculous Stop talking But I just wanted to put this forth this is a suggestion my sense is that we can make notes about anything at all on this Includes, I mean we started with 6a because we decided I believe it was Judge Gerson who actually said why don't we just go with the way the statute is written and start with 6a 6a My sense is that we can make notes about anything at all on this but not submitted until to the legislature until It's a complete document and everyone's happy with it or as I said last time equally miserable With it and I I'm frankly more comfortable with everybody being equally miserable There is again, no need to rush as we discussed at our meeting in June When several people pointed out that the legislature was not imminently expecting anything from us And that gives us actually some leeway has anyone heard anything that contradicts that I actually spent some time looking at that and Didn't find anything that said that you know We had something to produce by January 1st or anything of that nature. In fact, it's biennial So we've got even more time than that not that we should bore ourselves necessarily But on the other hand, I don't think we need to you know Stay up all night There's also I would suggest no need not to get going Some of our best thoughts probably deserve to be captured although I'm sure that we'll want to tinker with them So clearly what I'm doing is suggesting here that we write as we go I know that there's that that had some problems before I was on the panel But I'm also thinking that Again, as I had just said that there are some really interesting thoughts that people are probably going to have that really should be captured I'm still focused on I remember Judge Geerson saying last time that One of the one of the things we might do is piggyback on as it were with what the Human Rights Commission is doing because they're already talking about needing more people and And We were also having a conversation where I don't remember who said how many racial Complaints are there a year and it was a handful And everybody got very quiet, I think we were all kind of a little light. Oh, now what what do we do? And there were some people who didn't buy that Also, however There were some good thoughts there I thought when he said that why don't we start with that and he said it in a very commonsensical way It was really quite lovely I Figure why not we can write that we can start with that So again as I say I Suggest that we start writing as we go the statute itself gives us a rough outline to follow And it seems reasonable to follow that to me at least from now. I mean why not it's there Somebody did the work. Let's piggyback on it The important point is how this process should take place I'm certainly willing I'd love to write God I'd love to write I don't know why I'd love right I'm an academic. I can't help it. I'd love to write and I'm thinking if you if you want that I will write and I will send it out Just the way that we just did with the minutes. I will write I will send it out and and by God we need people to like go Aton, this is done or I don't think Don actually said that I think he said because I'm not going to get it right Um, it's like a rolling draft a rolling draft. Yes, exactly a rolling draft Which I would be my suggestion About a way forward with this I Have this in boldface here because I think it's probably the most important point I wrote down with this no one will be submitting anything without a vote and Further without ample commentary long before a vote is taken Let me repeat that because I think it bears repeating No one will be submitting anything without a vote and Further without ample competent commentary long before a vote is taken All right, it's not going anywhere except in this room and in your email files to put in your spam folder Whatever makes you happy The other matter to bear in mind is that writing has not been graven and stoned for rather a while now in history And that nothing that is written is immune to change It just allows us to preserve some of our best thinking and I just think that that's worth doing I think it's efficient and I'm all for being efficient And that seems to me to be worthwhile anyway That's what I wanted to say in terms of way forward and then just open it up to a broader discussion about how people feel about that or anything else that may come to mind about ways forward I'll put them in my two cents. I think that Having a living document that's ongoing like you said a rolling draft living document Whatever is is a smart way to go, but I think you also have to look at You can either wait forever or you can do something for two years and you know All of a sudden two years a long time, right? So I think wherever it makes logical sense to submit something like if you're going to submit something to a legislative body They're going to want something complete because they don't want to keep going back to the till They want to do it one time fix it move on to the next So I think if we're going to them for something I think we should make sure we have everything that we want them to be able to address at one time just For testimony for all kind of things I think if it's a policy within the juvenile justice system or the Vermont State Police or Corrections or something. I think that could be a rolling thing as something is accomplished I think maybe we could then see how to roll that policy change out or Or how it fits in like with this new panel for systemic racism and the new Executive director and what they're working on what we're working on and how we can take The information given to us by the Human Rights Commission and kind of hone that so we we have the information So I think it doesn't have to be either or I think it can be as it makes logical sense to move forward on a Policy or legislation or something. I think we can do that And still continue to work on it and then they can tweak it if we need to I don't know that's my sense But that's just my opinion good Do we want to have a timeline? That might not be a bad idea because Lord knows I think you can sit with this for years That's the point right right you're making this interest and I'm what we're doing as a panel, right? You know what nothing's come out of there to your soul. What are they doing? Why are they doing? David we are required to Produce something By January of 2020 correct because the first Document was due on January 28 January But on the flip side by withdrawing it Is there any ramifications to that because technically they submitted some but it was withdrawn so technically they didn't get anything so Is there a legal? Deadline we've already missed or Or I don't know that's that's that's where these guys I mean, yeah, we missed the deadline, but it's not like at this point The next deadline is the only definite next deadline is the 20-20 deadline. I think it's up to us to decide Okay, that's still seems like a long time from now or maybe it I'm not suggest. I don't know. I know. I'm just I'm sorry. I yeah, I'm just thinking I Think from a legislative standpoint, that's not a long time because I mean when you start they start January and in April I mean then they're done till the next year. I mean there. I mean and this this panel for the the Racial systemic racial panel is being picked as as we speak Yes, I mean there the applications have already been required to be submitted So they're going to be reviewing those they're going to let I mean the governor's going to point those or somebody's going to point The people on the panel and then they have to get the executive director So I think it doesn't it just make logical sense if we're doing something legislatively To wait to that person gets in and see how this panel shakes out in our comparison to what we're doing So we're not overlapping so I don't think 2020 is unreasonable from a legislative standpoint Maybe from a policy, but I love it depends on what they play on doing with the report Yeah, we might be looking at that line of 2020, but they want stuff by November of 2019 So they begin crafting legislation, right? Yeah, so November of 29 A year from now That way they can get stuff rolling into the 2020 legislative session Should we say that for a timeline? Yeah It's Timeline for filing yes, we need to start the process for vetting it here significantly before God, I hope Yeah, but November 2019 then This is all going so easily That's good. Yeah, no, I am I'm just checking because everybody's like we're all like it agreeing and everything just feels easy and I'm like Having a moment Oh Sure, I'm sorry Chief Superior Good evening, so I was just gonna pick up on this idea. I obviously can't relate Draft yes, but I think what we need to keep in mind is that even though it's a draft Last one at finish we don't want to Come back Yes, let's go back Reconsider Yes Okay Do we need to take a vote on November 19 the 2019 or do we know I think we're there Target day, okay That was easy As I say and if anybody who I'm willing to write but I enjoy it. I don't know why some people But he's really trouble Yeah Okay Please it's like cooking for some people like to cook I'd rather die. Um, and I I'm Writing I know it is extreme, but I cook Kitchen No, but writing I love so I will I'm more than willing to do it once we get some stuff down and I will start scribbling things out and it will look No, probably not initially, but you know, we'll we'll work on it and get it to that point Okay, great So can I just want to make sure I'm clear. Are we starting with tackling 6a? Yes. Okay, what I thought Um, because We are now moving ahead To our next moment on the agenda, which is in fact the discussion because I had we after Karen Richard spoke like we were all I that was wonderful. We were all like Huh, I mean it was just it was so marvelously Full And everybody had she had such wonderful ideas and we you know, it was kind of like Okay, now we need to like make something out of this and nobody knew what to do at that point except go home It was great But then we were going to spend this meeting actually coming up with Some real ideas based on what she said Judge griffin had that I keep going back to him because you had that idea about Oh, you're looking at me like I did not have an idea You have this really great idea about because she had said they were looking at getting more people to deal with some of the like Particularly racial stuff, but even though there isn't there wasn't a huge call for it There were like a handful of cases But they still needed those extra people and you were saying maybe we could piggyback onto that Rather than come up with something that's radically new and different Right I made some I made some notes because you asked us to look at that great if I hand them out I would love it so we can kind of look at them just at least Could I I figured these gives a some starting point it does around if you want I'll pass us. So yeah Unless there's more than 15 people that are there they're coming It's just to start at least the conversation anyway Wow, you took really good math Um, well, it's based on the minutes too. I mean so I just uh Well, no, I just figured it's a starting point to see Because you wanted to work on how this fit and how she fit into 6a or how that right into 6a So I tried to take the minutes and their conversation and and mold it into what we could do to help it fit into 6a Based on our discussion Just to keep everybody current The Section talks about parties involved in handling current complaints starting in july 1 the council Is handling law enforcement regulations the complaints will go there from a certification perspective as well as wherever they make Okay great Thank you So I didn't know if you wanted to start with discussing and then build something on this or you guys have some other Outlined or other people have other things they want to start or I'm still reading. Okay You know number two is interesting. I had um Ann Schroeder, I don't know if you all remember her. She's uh, she was here member of the public last time And she wrote me an email of last week Saying wouldn't it be nice if a lot of the The social justice organizations had links on their websites and she did the research I it was great. She like went and she's like there are no links to The human rights commission And wouldn't it be nice to have those links put in so that people can have A far more direct access to to what's going on and she asked me if What she should do and I said I think you should talk to those people But just so you know, but that that came up around your second point here and your recommendations Well, and also the hrc said they needed to do better outreach and marketing as well So it's kind of fits into that whole piece right They just don't have staff to do it right Which moves into three to three, right? Yeah Because when they said investigators the reason why I put one to two is because they said they normally handle 16 per investigator They know we know for sure. She said 10 cases per year were related to racial discrimination complaints Right, and they she did say we know that one to two cases per year were related to racial profiling So that's 12, right, but under the work discrimination There was no indication of if it was Race-based or if it was just in general with work discrimination so You can easily either Get the 16 right there so you can justify to a legislative body one position for that Or there's also housing complaints, which there wasn't identified as If it was racial or not, so I'm not sure how this is encompassing But I mean you could with the data she gave us you could justify a recommendation for at least one If not maybe two investigators to handle racial Case loads we could ask her about that and ask her to clarify. I mean that would be easy to do Yeah, that would so I mean that's where I came up with the And then I figured they don't have anybody for education and outreach or training Which they said they desperately need which would help maybe funnel people to the hrc And then with it, I think what they're lacking In my opinion from the discussion was the caseload coordination and mediation Because I think because there's so many agencies that can receive complaints I think you need to funnel them all to one agency and then have them keep track of it And then farm it out to the proper people So you can follow up on it and then see what the results are So it's like a project manager for cases coming in Because there's all of these the attorney general says they get certain ones that And then the human rights get certain one and then if they don't take it It goes to EOC or HUD or So I think there needs to be or the state police because you said you handle your own So I think there needs to be Because she said that they had very good data collection It's just a matter of putting the data in a usable format. So I think If they already have The ability to handle legal issues and mediate they already have the ability to Have the database is already there with proper capturing of data What they need is management like Like facilitate somebody doing the project management to say and then if it needs mediation Maybe that person could help do that and then further on down where it says the data collection as an oversight Maybe that the data that's collected could then be given to the new panel Unracial Disparities to not only oversee the HRC's Handling of what they're doing but also gives them an avenue to deal with the non-legal Issues of how to change Where they're coming from so if they're all coming from one department they can start focusing education in that department Where because I think what HRC and AG's office said they only handle the legal aspect the other stuff isn't So that's where the systemic racism panel can help pull the load. I don't this is just suggestion. Yeah, that's great Thank you. Just a suggestion So you're sort of envisioning one spot shot Yeah, you have to and then that drops out to these Various silos of agencies and then they can either stay in that side. Well, that's what 6a is telling us 8 8 8 if you look at 6a 6a says that it is a common Uh reporting Right, so you kind of want to funnel that into one area so somebody can keep track of it because if people are saying Oh, no, that's we have more complaints than that But nobody's capturing that or so you have to have one focal point as a funnel in and then Feed out but then you get feedback back in saying, okay What's the status of this? What'd you do? It might be just simple as saying We're still working on it or oh, we've closed that or we referred that back to HR so you so that HRC can because there's some I think there's a responsibility of HRC to work with a human Resources department within the state because they're handling all employee issues so They have to be involved because There's a legal reason for the HR departments or whether it be a state police or whether it be With the state agency HRC isn't just going to do their own thing HR has to be involved because they're an employee So I think there has to be some coordination between these different departments who are dealing with these complaints So they cannot they can oversight each other, you know what I'm saying? So there's some Check and balance there and data collection because without data We're right back where we started it's gonna be interesting to see how they the data collection happens. I think because if I read that order properly that Position is going to be very heavily Reliant upon the collection of data Across the executive branch. Oh you talking about the new the new yeah So I mean this kind of fits in well That's why I did it that way because I figured that position Is going to do like what the Vermont state police is already doing right? They're going to create these pick while my in my vision They're going to create these panels that are going to do the work and dig into the details And then they're going to report back and say okay What do we find and how do they put the big picture together because you're working on bsp stuff HRC is working on theirs. So how does this? Executive director along with that panel put it all together and say, how do we how do we corral it or how do we Manage it. I'm only assuming that because you got one person. They can't deal with all the state government They just so they're going to have to build these coalitions right or panels like this one Or you know in different departments to be able to do it. I mean Because other ones. Yeah, no, but I'm saying there's a data analyst, right? I mean their point is saying where's the breakdown and how do we fix it? Whereas and you guys are getting in that we're getting into the details of Of collecting that data, but I think you have to have hrc If we're going to have a focal point If you funnel everybody so they all get the same message any complaints for racial disparities goes to the human rights commission That's an easy thing to put out there and hammer Any complaint dealing with racial issues go to the hrc hrc hrc and then once they start getting that message That hrc is responsible to like oh this deals with hud Oh, this deals with vsp because otherwise you're going to have vsp saying oh if you have any problems We have a complaint officer or we have HR or you got somebody else on correction saying well talk to your resource And the school is going to say talk to your guidance counselor. I mean, so That's what we're having now, right? Everybody's reporting to everywhere So but hrc is only getting a piece of it Okay, right and I didn't we say that hrc made the logical sense to because I would have a process they have the legal authority already plus But major Jonas is looking I'm processing this as we talk so I I I support I get where you're looking for I think that that would make sense. There are some Issues just thinking about vsp with regard to our complaint process because it is currently governed by State law that our internal affairs which is kind of outdated language for professional standards process for complaints is confidential by statute and Only with permission from the citizens advisory board that we have just called the state police advisory commission Can we release information publicly about that So we have the commission has given permission to release information about internal affairs complaints We do Rarely, but and we do give a report At any time about our numbers our general numbers of types of complaints and outcomes whether there were findings or not Those are all just general numbers. They're not specifics. So it might be That somebody goes direct to the internal affairs division in the files of formal complaint Or they walk into a barracks and they make a complaint and then There's a policy that every member who receives any complaint Alleging a violation of one of our codes of conduct if you're broken into three parts based on severity Must report that of the chain of plan if you don't report receiving information about a complaint Then that is a So The point is that there are certain things about vsp's current complaint process that are confidential by statute And so we have to kind of work around Some of those things, but I but I get what you're getting at. There's a clearing house for Where I think we could have I mean Piggyback off that and the same thing is that we have a system where there is an area where it comes in But it may not always be caught there because it's caught at the agency But at the end of the year these agencies have to give finalized reports back into that clearing house So, you know, this may be this may numbers came in, but this is the actual numbers when you took Well, that's why That's why this is a good discussion because I mean this isn't sat in stone It's just a suggestion a talking point comes Maybe vsp's excluded or maybe there's a no no or maybe there's a statistical data that can be funneled So there's some track trackability to the data Act 56 changed that landscape a little bit because the vsp are now required by law to report everything that the other agency has to report to the council There's still that confidentiality piece in the handle of their own everybody handles their own first category b offenses It gets made as a report to us simply so we can track second subsequent offenses which come into the jurisdiction of the council at that point The criminal investigations vsp or is open open air about that Which is our category a category b is the gross professional misconduct bias enforcement You know using your authority to gain personal advantage of sort of stuff And everybody takes care of their own first offenses Part of the reason that was done was because the vsp have a pretty robust Process as do a number of others who are handling those things appropriately And on the second offenses the vsp are typically letting people go at that point Anyway, so the report still gets made the council And the category c Are the offenses against the council processes which we handle Light about your training hours or fail to make reports. They're supposed to make or something like that. Those are council processes so The current law states that we have to accept complaints Regardless of the source in addition to accept the reports we have to accept complaints and then funnel it to the appropriate agency And that's not unusual four or five times a year. I get a call from people complaining about an office They don't know how to sit down So we funnel it towards the appropriate agency And then it's kind of circular the report then it comes back to the council And act 56 also requires us to maintain a registry And all of our actions are taken In full view of the public We do the registry the information on the registry depends on the action taken by the council But that's all public and whoever the executive director is You just go and look at this and gather all the information like off of that or we could Just aggregate send it up and it's all public anybody on the planet can pull up or watch like they look out I guess my question is is that we're not talking so much about the internal departments Feeding the hrc That's not where I was going because most of the complaints are either going to come from the public Like if there's racial profiling they might not want to go to the brahma state police because that's the people they're complaining about They might want to go to hrc and then hrc would then funnel it down to Vsp to then look into the what happened right and then you could follow your processes if it's within state government I don't know if they would come to the department or the where they're working Or if they would go to hrc I'm just saying what happens now if the hrc gets a complaint about Whatever in in this thing that you're talking about they're pushing it to you maybe Right, or maybe not. I don't know. So they've already given that I'm making a complaint because I feel comfortable doing so Now somebody else knows that I'm making a complaint outside of Either ones I'm complaining about Uh, and then it goes through that process within that department, right? So Or whatever whatever, yeah, but somebody's keeping track that there's like actually a the complaint made just like hud If somebody's complaining about their housing Would they go to the housing unit? Maybe if they do that's a different process, but if they at least come to the centralized one They then push it to hud and say Investigate it get back to me And with not maybe not with specifics, but what what was your findings? There's a number of ways that complaints themselves in a way like right so Someone might not feel comfortable going to the sp. We're making a complaint. However They are challenging the search of their vehicle and through that motion to dismiss they Made statements to show that they are concerned that there was Unconstitutional policing that was happening that involved racial profiling or I'm off the search and then when we learn of that type of Thing then that could constitute opening an internal investigation. But so complaints sort of present themselves in different ways. It's not always Formal some people don't always people always feel comfortable making a formal complaint and yet The basis of a complaint comes surfaces. There are other names I'm channeling Sheila that could be that agency reporting back Yeah Because I'm I'm wondering I I just remember last time she she seemed And there's no way to know this I Really, but she seemed to be uncomfortable with The notion that someone who would be a that the complainant would actually feel comfortable complaining And that in fact the numbers that we were given that Karen gave us were Were low But she seemed to feel that there were a lot more people It was far under reported Right It should Instincts they're saying This kind of complaint, right But I think the major is correct too Complaint is a very broad term And it's going to come in different ways that some aspect of it may start out in Public End up in their process or any other agency's Term process so right they could take a path that is public in one sense, but And more specific That's why I was saying according to 6a it says Institute of public complaint process. So So I'm just saying there's going to like you're all saying is there's multiple ways people can complain Somebody might just want to go to the supervisor and say hey joe's give me a problem We take care of it or just don't make a big deal about but can we you know, that doesn't need to rise to You know, okay. No, you got to go through hrc. No, I mean that's I think if we provide an avenue for the public To be able to to be able to Make a formal complaint That's what our job here not that we're circumventing any other processes that other departments have I'm just saying is we have to provide a a common vehicle For someone and market that like if you want this is available. You don't have to use it, but this is available I think that's where we're trying to strive, right? I mean It don't have to be set in stone. I think because everybody's going to deal with their issues But there has to be some accountability because I'm thinking if you're going to legislators they're going to want to know What are you going to do, right? How are you going to track it? How are you going to remediate it and how much is it going to cost and how much is it going to cost so I I think You know, that's that's kind of what we got to present them with Something that's really difficult. I know that right now. I think taren is the only one who really goes around the state and does A lot of the implicit bias training and things like that so people, you know, I think she said she is she's two investigators so I think You know both, you know talking about the positions in hrc and then also the marketing is critical because you know And a lot of this might come down to the appropriations that are given to hrc or staff But if karen's the only one who can go out and goes around the state and does that, you know There's going to have to be some Either mass marketing campaigns or staff iron uh training the trainers sorts of meetings because otherwise You know part of the problem Part of the reason why there might be under reporting is that could blink mean simply not know And I also see where this new panel Racial systemic racial disparities panel and the executive director that's part of their role Is making sure because part of it says cultural and other educational yes opportunities to educate state departments on racial Disparity issues, so I think there's going to be a overlap there or hand-in-hand or something that's got to do with um, because there's funding To a point for that. I don't know much. I know they Allocated 75,000, but I don't know if that's for the executive director position or overall stuff I don't know I think it's for the position I don't know, but So I think there's going to be other training opportunities, but I just don't know how it relates. We don't know how it's going to relate to human rights commission So we're going on with your suggestion I think I mean i'm just summing up now That we're really going to go with If We don't need to come up with a brand new Give hrc the resources that they need to actually to handle what we think is probably a bigger Docket of cases Right then what they're already handling We're going to need either hrc or the other commission that's coming together to be funded to Market and educate the public about the complaint system I mean a big picture. I think that we Are coming to a place where we are saying we want to use hrc as the Place where all of these complaints People are educated that they can bring these complaints initially if they don't want to go directly to the agency That the complaint is about or against and then to me it seems like it's a matter of them figuring out Okay, how is hrc going to handle these complaints? Is there going to be some funneling to the specific agencies to handle that the complaints internally throughout through whatever their own system is but it definitely Seems like we have a sense that using hrc that way avoids having to create some whole new agency And gives us a framework to start with that already exists Right, right. So so my question then I think we're all agreement that potentially hrc is the mechanism But do we just leave it at that and let them handle their own devices or do we provide them guidance like saying We need you to capture the data so we can report on or we need to have in other words Does every investigator handle Uh Racial issues or do you have some people that have qualified backgrounds to be able to maybe help that area? Um, I don't know. I do we just give them a blank saying hrc is yours Or do we and we give you we recommend giving you the resources you need or do we get down into a little more into the weeds and our recommendation to say You know, this is what maybe you should do I'm asking I need to have Karen back at some point we get into like the details of so if we use hrc as our major sort of clearing house Well, how would that work for you? You know, I'd assume you get fully staffed and whatever How would you then handle these complaints if they involve a specific agency? Would you just do the investigation or would you sometimes fall, you know Whether it be instances where it would be appropriate to file a complaint to the agency that sort of thing I think we would need to make sure that some of these statutorily defined processes We know we're like that that's almost like you've given right like these kinds of cases need to be referred out To the statutorily defined and I'm more like the best Yeah, yeah, no, that's the only reason why I'm asking the question about the details is because In her comments in the minutes she said in an ideal world I would need like six or eight So if you give her like if we say we can justify based on racial profiling or racial issues alone, which is what we're dealing with It might only deal with one maybe two investigators, but she says I need six or eight So my question is would then she just Then take her existing cases And put those Now it relieves some of her workload from the other people, but there's no priority or any consideration given to the racial Issue with in which we're dealing with I'm only or it's not our issue I don't know because say you get she needs six we give her we somehow get the legislation give her two Does that mean we're still a year out before any just because any cases with Racial disparities come up That's where people were saying they get frustrated and they drop it and they don't want to deal with it because it's just Forever and they just get sick of it and say forget it That was part of the discussion. I think Sheila was bringing up was that people just get frustrated and say forget It's not worth it Right, right by then they find another reason to get rid of you Oh, but that may be again going back to to marketing This is how long the process takes I mean, you're not going to walk in the door and walk out the door the same day Having issues all you can't possibly investigate something I believe wholeheartedly and fully So maybe it goes in part to that to say it's going to take this long So people know going in There's a quick question if anyone remembers how long as much longer is Karen in her position? I mean, tell me is if she's going to be available Oh, right not a long time Whoever comes in behind her This is going to have her Knowledge But also if you read the minutes if you read the minutes from her testimony She said if they have lack of resources they drop a lot of cases unless they are legally able to Know they're going to have a case So there are a lot of things that just get Dismissed because they don't have the resources. It's in the minutes. Yeah, so if they don't have the resources And we only give them two more. I don't know if we've solved the problem I mean we've helped but I don't think we've solved what we're trying to do. That's that's my only concern Um, unless they can be fully funded Anyway, just I don't want to beat it to that but I'm just trying to bring up little points from the testimony. So Yeah, so what I'm thinking is if she's retired we could just we could use her as a consultant Yes Should we start writing something and then give that to her Detail should I thank you major this is so glad you made it Should should I start writing something down like that that we can actually put in front of her and say Great What else Exactly, I love you Thank you. I love you too. That was great. This is really great. Let's have a hug moment Personal space, right? Yeah So each agency themselves Yeah, what is it? I think is my understanding and kind of hearing about it is it sort of can go all over the place There isn't a streamline process So I think that's another part of this too as we're sort of like having these agencies now have a war You and I had a really good discussion about this About data and about meeting reports From different agencies in the executive branch And how they did this And I didn't ask I didn't ask you because you weren't here but um We had a discussion about this that was a little ex parte but you know About meeting reports that would in fact talk about data collection Around issues of complaints and so on and so forth the discrimination, etc Um, and that we actually needed that as a group to look at To get a sense of exactly what What Gary's bringing up, okay, is that something? Are you do you feel a little overwhelmed? I mean, I'm not sure my office like has that in one place, but given how many Assistant AGs we have placed around state agencies right state government I do think it's data that we could over a period of some time not data, but information About processes that we could gather it may take at least several weeks to get that all together, but I still can do it I yeah, and I think we should ask the same maybe Great can happen with local and Sheriff's office, yes All of the like do you have a formalized process what it or is it So we can kind of hear because I think the judge just made a good point because that's kind of that that was documents We're talking about so we look at the formalized process for complaints. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're doing out because they're mandated by a lot That's coming to you. Well, they have that internal investigation policy that That we created as a model We're talking about Is everyone talking about Complaints that might come from a citizen outside the agency as well as Complaints by employees So thank you for asking I was thinking the same good thing And I think it's going to be scattered so I think that's going to help sort of shape this overall Image and we're kind of looking at because that will help sort of define Holly's investigation sort of take shape because there's going to be different Standards when it comes to unions and this and that well the statute says public complaint process public So that's true. That's what we have to concentrate on is a public complaint process So not so much internal insurmountable, but because that has whatever that process is now So it's more or less So when we're talking about Getting a sense of how All these different state agencies handle complaints Or if they have a formalized process we're talking about complaints from members of the public about so like For a public defender office, it would mean If I guess a client of ours thought that he or she was Was being discriminated in some way Based on race or ethnicity what the question is what would their process be for Bringing that to someone's attention and making a formal complaint Well, that's that's why I'm reading the statute because that's why that's why we have to not lose sight of If we're following the statute, we have to follow it's for the public now Could somebody in a department be part of the public? I don't that's a different question, but we have to at least Well, frankly, I mean, I think if we are if we are Are educating the public more about how to make Complaints, you know based on allegations of Discrimination based on race by a state agency We are inevitably also Giving that information to you know, if there's an employee if I feel like I'm being discriminated You know by my boss like I'm going to go to the HRC now So I think from the criminal justice system When you bring up a client they could be complaining about you Complaining about the way they were treated by the court staff. Yeah, they could Over hear something the state's attorney has said and Right talking to you. They could obviously be complaining about the judge And the judge's reaction to something that they feel in the court process People with the attorney may Have the same reaction But the judicial process of course has confidentiality But major Jonas's point earlier really made me think, you know From My perspective, I think that when we see something when we think that we see racial bias in a case What you describe is exactly what we do. We usually address it by challenging it within the criminal case But this conversation is making me recognize like I would never really even have thought about Yes, I can address this in the criminal case, but also There's this bigger issue that maybe I should be taking To the human rights commission or some broader it, you know making some more sort of formal complaint not just in this criminal case specific to this You know this officer's conduct in this case, but really To his or her department or agency or whatever. I think that's really what the goal of this is is to see that bigger picture as well People are also being like regardless of the merits of your claims Right. See, yes. There's a broader concept that needs to be reported beyond right Then how would we capture that if somebody is Has absolutely no interest whatsoever in bringing to They don't have any faith in our department. Let's say they the LA were discriminated against and they really don't care about our Process they have no faith in our process and so they Hire an attorney and they sue our department and Which they're rightfully able to do and then we're engaging this thing could go on for years and involves attorneys And we Would hopefully also open a parallel internal process for that, but if somebody has no interest whatsoever in The complaint because they don't have any faith in the system working to answer their complaints So they're going after in a different way. That's their product to do We still want to We still want to capture those as complaints because they're technically I would hope yeah Well that answers the she answered that because Karen had said that they often will uh recommend or push things to either legal aid or uh legal counsel so in you know private counsel and they normally at that point Are done with it, but I think if it comes through the human rights commission They can at least track it say it went to private illegal aid and then maybe at the end try to find out What the disposition was not not so much the merits of it, but just What happened was it dismissed? Was it not found? I mean just to know because I can I can picture my head and and I don't even work in corrections But you have no idea how many calls I get in letters from prisoners saying from native standpoint That they're not being treated fairly and and that's outside of the right to me to help them because they're they're not accepting of the corrections and sometimes they try everything Just because they have a lot of time on their hands and they're trying everything for somebody to help them do something And I have to bet those things, you know myself, but that's outside of any of these processes But I could take that and say hey this person's getting Feels like he's being mistreated For say go to the human rights commission or talk to parole and then I'll be an interested party But I mean at least there's a formal avenue For them to do that. I mean because somebody could get overwhelmed with all those complaints I mean, you know, I mean, I mean you could get complaints about everything all the time But I uh anyway I think there has to be trackability to get data because otherwise we don't It's hard to make It's hard to make judgments on where to fix problems If we don't capture it like is it all coming from housing? Is it all coming from the court system or Okay, 10 percent's going from coming from corrections, but 15 percent's coming from bsp and You know, 80 percent's coming from housing. So then you would say to yourself Maybe I better start educating HUD a little more or housing a little more Because that might reduce the percentage of people complaining. So it gives you somewhere to focus your Your outreach, right and your marketing and your education. I mean, but if you don't have that data then Well, that's why we were we were talking about needing these Documents for that lack of a better word would be to try to get that data more Under our belts. So we would have a sense of How the complaint process would be influenced by in fact those data All It's going to go What we mean Right Yep, because I Sheila was also concerned when we were talking about the permit foch a case and she was all upset about you know, but Well, people don't even understand what that means and then and then beyond that That doesn't mean something didn't happen just because it doesn't rise to that standard And she was trying to point out there And I remember feeling a certain amount of resistance about that and then I went home and thought about it and I think the resistance was I really just want there to be some sort of standard that makes the simple or Simple and scare quotes But yeah, what do you do when you have a situation where And I certainly know this happens where somebody is just clearly got a racial bug and You you know it you know it the way you know how to tie your shoe in the morning And there is absolutely no way That you can actually prove that given the way The judicial system is set up. You just can't do it and I know that's where where Sheila was going with that That may or may not be something we can handle. I don't know It I would be sad if we can't but I also understand that There are certain things that just can't get covered But I certainly know what she's talking about. I mean I I've had professors who I just had a professor. I someone I know just told me. Oh, yeah Someone I had in graduate school who I could not get more than a d from you may not know this But in graduate school you do not get d's That's just not how life works. You don't even get c's you get a's and b's and you get a b or more and So I you know I remember this guy just did not like me and he he couldn't stand it So I was having dinner with this man the other night. He went well, you know, he's an open racist, don't you? It had never occurred to me that he really was and he said well, that's why he's never given one of his black students anything more than a d Well, I can't prove that But in those cases no, but see that's where the information regardless of the outcomes come But if you if you have those interviews and you can capture that data somewhere Then doesn't mean at that point you can go back to the school and educate and say Let me pick uh, you can do a student roster by the say the What their race is and you can prove that out if they all have d's then obviously there's a bias there that you can maybe address But I'm just saying is Doesn't matter about whether like in this case same with legal aid or legal if it comes in hrc and you say I put farmed that out to legal If if 60 percent are going to legal or private then you know, maybe I need to work on How to educate around that Or it gives you some you may not need to know if it was valid or not But because you every case is different but You might be able to say where do I focus the outreach and education because it's all going to legal or private Or it's all going to HUD or it's all I just think that capturing at least Where the complaint's coming from where does it go and then as much data as you can get That might document what that implicit bias may or may not have been just to give you some sense of Can I do anything further outside of this process for for Education or looking into something right in your example, there are some mechanisms that you could check just because They were there's records data So I don't know. I don't want to be dead. I just want to focus I want to focus us to a point of where do we go from here To write something up for 6a and I know we're not going to solve all the details today, but I'm saying is we're Well, but I think you you guys had a really great idea here between the two of you Which is we need to get this to Karen and have her comment on it But that would be a really useful thing would be to To get that to her and say this is This is where Don has started. This is where I take my name off just from the panel just use it from the panel Okay, I'll take I mean I'm just these are just suggestions. Yeah but Okay, and but to put that forward to her and just to get some feedback and then And then come back with that And having the agencies report and having that law enforcement agencies have to have a formalized process right that was part of this As well, right? So we know those things are starting to come together in some ways. So some of those recommendations are already being Exactly You could frame it in such a way I think this is an excellent summary of what she presented. I do too at least this is the way The panel has perceived it and right does she agree that this actor reflects Indeed her comments and we're using it as a first step in this process So I'll send you want me to send you this since I would love it if you would Then you can tweak it and do a re want and add maybe the data reporting or some other reports or something else or Sure, um, I can just email it to you if you yeah, we don't need to retype it. I just sent it to you That would be lovely. Thank you. Okay That was a lot anything else That we need to do right now I'll just make the point that I know that it's not part of the charge that we did this but 6a says institute Or how to institute a public complaint process through this procedure is advised across all systems of state government We're talking about the clearing house and having hrc. We kind of do the point of contact But one thing that I always worry about is that we all have different our different entities have different ways of Framing up what is a complaint and categorizing it and so we've all done a good job, let's say of Okay, well the sp has these You know types of codes of conduct and corrections has their own system set up to receive a complaint in front in your you know A complaint about discrimination based on race or ethnicity Is called something different in your system than it is in ours perhaps and so how do we know I'm afraid that there isn't continuity from the different parts of the system So we wouldn't necessarily know what you know, it's a complaint and bsp is it a complaint in other Entities in the system. How do we speak the same language or know that we are So that we're really able to track if we were to internally if we were to report Let's say there was like at the end of the year we reported Cades allegations of racial profiling allegations of you know You know discrimination based on status Citizenship status those types of things. So how would how do we all speak the same language or our systems? Speak the same language. So we even know That we're tracking the same things or categories of things Um, I think that we're having when we hear from state agencies That's going to give us numbers or no numbers. So that's going to send one path. And I think we get numbers We can dig into that question. But then okay, we see you have These numbers here then we can ask a question or someone asked a question What is that? Can you give us a sort of broad base and what that looks like in your agency? You know, because I my guess is I think we'll see probably little to no numbers somewhere Because of no formalized process and nothing's been captured. So that's gonna sort of trigger that and then the agencies that do report We kind of ask them. What is that? What does that look like in your agency and they can explain it to us? As you say it, I'm just thinking how difficult this is I think about For example an inmate who may have been put in segregation and they file a grievance the grievance is going to be Categorized as an appeal of being in segregation But if I'm reading it if it's coming to me and it says I was put in segregation because of my race It's not coming in under that heading. It would then be Sent to somebody to investigate for that purpose. But unless you know, Monica Have we changed the headings enough or are they that subtle to be able to capture that? I think we would capture when we read it versus being titled that way. Yeah, I think it is going to be difficult I think what we're all talking about. I mean and it's up to the panel's side. I'm not officially a member But it sounds like what you're asking is a lot of qualitative research that I'm not really sure the panel is You know prepared or resourced to Conduct and it it seems to me like what you want to do is get a very sort of high level What do we have? What do we know now and just kind of think about it at that point versus trying to work out in the Comparison stuff because I think that would come Kind of later on in a recommendation Well, I'm also thinking in my head too from an IT standpoint Is that we use a lot of cross-reference tables when we deal with different entities where you have one standardized thing And then those agencies have to report based on your standardization But I but I'm also thinking right now Based on hrc. We're only talking 16 cases a year now that could expand dramatically But I'm saying is we're talking about a very small number of Of data that each department. I don't know how many Vsp gets from a racial standpoint, but they're saying two they were saying what a one to two ones at two They were saying one to About pro finally how many Right, so I'm saying is it may not be a task an overwhelming task on Each department that might say I need to be able to put this in a standardized reporting format If you're talking about five people or if you're talking maybe even 20 That might take somebody a week. I don't know what the big My question is is this a decision to make now or is this a decision to make Or a recommendation that that needs to be worked out later Yeah Thinking about what the charge and what the recommendation of the panel is is how to institute a public complaint process And then the recommendation, you know, sort of like how many You know staff do we want one of the other things that needs to be worked out It could all be part of the recommendation versus maybe really hard for this group to work all of that out I don't think we can and I think especially with the new Systemic I keep going to the systemic racial panel. They're charged with the same thing of collecting data So there has to there's going to be an An overwhelming push To standardize all over the reporting Right, so we can't do it before they'd be one of those things that collaborative. I think it's got to be collaborative They're gonna be a year behind us. Yeah, that's 75,000. It's gonna feel You know the other thought I had when I was listening to you was also You know that there isn't the standardization and maybe Is that good I mean does that in fact reflect A certain kind of reality That Do you know what I mean that in fact there are different The discrimination takes these different forms. It's protean And then It Can just become it takes different forms It's just Yeah amorphous in a way. It doesn't have a shape. You are going to be a good writer But I would somebody asked me to define something But um, but that if that's in fact the case Then we're gonna have that's going to be a problem To come up with what we're trying to come up with because in fact The fact that it has all these different manifestations is in fact racism itself And so I just I'm sort of suddenly going where you're going which wasn't where I was going initially and now I'm confused I mean good Every system has a different consequence Judges And I think you still need to capture like you're saying the perceived Even if it's not reality, there's still a perception that they're being discriminated against racially when that may not even be the case Um, but at least the perception is their own reality of that What regardless of the outcome so there's still that thing too is where they really discriminated against or was it perceived because their own and really That's a hard one Yeah, because everybody if they've always been discriminated against everything to them is the discriminated factor Uh, if they haven't then they may say well, maybe or no, I think it's experience But right I can't I mean it's kind of like you're you're um Um, what do I call him? Um, I've decided it's a him. Um You have a you have a certain person who Works in the middle of nowhere who is probably a horrible horrible racist, but we won't know because there are no black people And how do we find this person and you and I were like Hmm And I think that may be where this goes too I mean and that then gets back to what you were saying, which is this is getting a little bit further than the panel can do It's just I'm just listening and Sort of making an observation And trying to so that you don't get too far deep down into trying to solve problems that down the rabbit hole Keep us on track So I will I will get this off to Karen Richards with um with a bit of a you know Little note attached as well and saying we would like as you were saying Is this accurate? A and b this is a first step for us. And so we really do need to know Some feedback from you on this As a way to start And I will take don stevens off of it. Yeah, and um But I really would like to say publicly. Thank you. This is wonderful I think it is My apologies thought we were all working on it. We are but it's just but it but it's really wonderful No, but I just oh, thank you. But like I said, it's kind of you know make it come for the panel because I will I will um Okay, it is 735 because because it always is um And Well, I yeah, I know it's always 735 somewhere Uh, we were hoping to get to Again chief don's submission um reducing racial disparity in the criminal justice system You remember that document I know I've got it. It's pretty thick. Um Actually started to summarize it a little bit, but uh, I figured I stopped Do you want to at least get a go on it because we've tabled this twice We are in no hurry. That's true I'm just asking Also say that I haven't read it and I'm wondering if we can maybe For next time well table it now, but also for next time narrow Yes, this focus of what we want to look for in it. Then I'm wondering and if you have read it So maybe you can give us some direction chief, but We are right now focusing on six a and how to come up with a public complaint process So maybe if there is a section specific to that in the report, we could focus on trying to make that Yeah, I have just uh, I can give you just an outline that I Had I mean it's nothing major, but I just started work on something if you want um It's just kind of basically the good thing about this is that because we were trying not to reinvent the wheel I don't know if you like that or I can work on something a little This is just kind of a quick outline over Um But the the thing with that was that their their main goal was is that things build upon Other issues so in other words, where do you route it out at each stop because like say you get unfairly Arrested well if you're poor you don't have money to pay for a lawyer to get you out So then you're likely to not get bail because you can't post it. So now you're incarcerated. So Now you run into other issues. So it just compounds on top of each other. So Is how do you create? Areas to put checks and balances in each part of the process like arrest Court Corrections Per roll like where do you put checks and balances so it doesn't keep building on itself so you can recognize it So, I mean this is just a quick Uh Thing I mean I just started working on so don't take this by any means as any Gospel it just kind of had an outline on the back of it to some of the different things So you'd have to look at it to see if any of those fit, but The book I think I said you guys Oh, it's a pretty long and they said we had the rights to copy it. So 74 pages Yeah, but it you don't have you can skim it. I mean if it's something specific to 6a I think it's got to this has got to do with more of the training piece or how do you put something in place for to recognize that compounding Bias that you may not even know what's happening Or whatever At the table Great, yeah, because there is probation So we're not overwhelmed all of us with 74 pages Yeah Then I would suggest I don't do anything We're great. Yeah, really That was a smart Okay, sorry, uh, let's do that. Um Read your own section. Okay for the next time if I understood. Yes read the section most applicable What happens if you have like we do you say there were seven we have three sections, right? Right But yeah, we're waiting I looked at them Yeah, I should say there's a lot in them to consider dense I kept going back and forth and going Which sounds kind of silly, but you should already section one though. Yes, right Did you already say that? But and then and we were and we were narrowing our charge to 6a b and c right So if anything that fits into both a b and c great, right make note of it Yeah, I make note of it. I think because it might hit either one of those I don't think we're doing anything more than a b and c, right? I think that's what we vote right now. Yeah And they have pictures I like the idea when they said let's not reinvent the wheel if we don't have to I mean if there's some good stuff in it And the and this is a national Organization who deals with this. I mean so they've got some experience And they said they'd be willing to consult. I don't know what that would cost, but I mean I have I have contact people Do you want to talk to them too? Would you do the sentencing project? It was interesting because I remember while I was reading it just thinking Because it had so many that there were questions In each section that should be asked Yeah, yes, and my I was just sort of going of course who would be asking this and how would they be remunerated I think they break that down by the departments. I think in the in the specific area I viewed it as like a training document. Yeah, these are the questions you ask Perhaps even when you're hiring when you're hiring There was there was a lot to consider. Yeah, it really was So yeah, yeah, no I'm just trying to provide the information. No, it's great. I don't think we really need to get More specific about it. I think we're all smart enough to know what relates to us Yeah, yes, okay Great, um So we'll do that for next time. Okay, we'll start off with that for next time. Okay, um Wow Scheduling of next meeting them We are by statute to meet No more than 10 times a year I believe I believe that's what I really Does technically say that but I also I do get things wrong, but Don't worry about it. I mean, okay. I'm not worried about it. Who's gonna get in trouble next month The promise is not to prosecute I mean, I think yeah, that won't be fine. Okay, we'll be fine. Okay. Yeah So the 11th of september is the second tuesday of the month, which is what we do So I'm just putting that out now the 11th of september. I don't believe it's a Holiday last time I said there's no holiday on the 14th of august and well, it's not a holiday but There is kind of an important thing going on and I managed to miss it. So anyway, I'm So I'm like a little reluctant to sort of go oh the 11th of september and I mean it has sadness, of course, but Life does go on and uh Where it'll be here again, it'll be here. Yeah And Walker our wonderful person who's been working on this stuff. She's lovely. She's great. Thank you. I will thank you So she actually looked at all the possibilities for like three months out in june And this was the only available spot for six to eight p.m This date. I mean sorry in september also so that's where we are But she'll look again now for october november december and Yeah, we'll try again unless there's an objection. It seemed like people really like waterbury I don't know if that's actually a consensus, but waterbury library The waterbury library it was love in any of the rooms. So we'll try for that as the first I'd like a chef first prayer from I will I can predict So, okay so Six to eight p.m on the 11th of september You might find a way on your writing to Yes, Karen. Yes, suddenly ask we understand you're Leaving hrc. Yes Would you be available To consult with us? She's on our fair and partial policing subcommittee And she told us that she was retiring in october I said you're welcome to stay on the committee and she's very sensitive making sure she doesn't step on toes of her replacement So I think that that's a subject that has to be published pretty carefully. Well, that's what I'm saying. We might as well I didn't hear. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She's she doesn't she wants to be careful just she doesn't step on the toes of her replacement Got it. Okay So my point was yes, she's not available. So you need to get her in motion now Yeah, and if that's case we can always push this off again. I mean if we had to right Right. I yeah Given that she's Well, and she may have an answer for your question Right, I will I'll put that together This week To her So, okay, so the 11th of september 6 to 8 p.m Here in the milne Milne Um That will go on the ag's website Yes, and we'll put it on the library website also even though I'm not sure if anybody ever checks it, but we'll put it there and the minutes will go up ASAP as soon as I take out that Sentence the nature Jonas wants out And I'll put that up and I'll do that this week too Um Public commentary Okay, uh New business Okay Adjournment Pardon Whoa all in favor all against all standing. Okay. Bye everybody