 Good afternoon everybody and welcome to today's webinar express where we're going. We don't need cookies organized by South East If you are a university student attending today's webinar, you may want to sign up for the CIM Marketing Club newsletter They'll keep you up to date with the latest trends innovations and concepts in the marketing industry All you need to do is take a photograph of the QR code You see on the screen at the moment and it will take you straight to the sign up page on the CIM website So I'd now like to hand over to Kevin Joyner director of data solutions at crowd was our guest speaker today over to you Kevin Thanks very much Phil at the end of the first back to the future film Marty turns to the dock. He's in the DeLorean and he says doc. You're gonna need to Back up. We don't have enough road to get up to 88 miles per hour If you remember that the time machine has to be traveling at that speed in order for it to leap through time And the doc says Marty where we're going. We don't need roads. I hope I got that, right? You know, it's incredibly nerdy thing to have ties with my presentation. It came to me in a moment I regret it slightly, but actually This presentation is about the future It's about leaving behind a familiar solution that has taken us very far, but which is now inadequate It's been a while in the making I think this started with Edward Snowden that was in 2013 when he He leaked details of what the NSA was doing to look at transatlantic communication and American communication and then in 2018 we had the Cambridge Analytica scandal and the They're coming into force of the EU GDPR there's been There's been a very public battle between Apple and the FBI over unlocking iPhones so that this is about privacy and so on and and what's happened here is that this has been a journey of kind of mounting momentum caused by the combination of quite technical ideas and ideas about privacy and encryption Coming into the mainstream Rory Ketlin Jones explaining data protection on the BBC breakfast program, for example And in combination with that we've seen increasingly meaningful regulation and this has resulted in a couple of big things happening with the biggest technology players in advertising We've seen the likes of Apple and Mozilla really double down or take this new position of Their brand in relation to privacy so Apple stands for privacy and and really I think what we've seen there is Google forced To act a little quicker than it might have done to to to to fall in line with this mainstream momentum And so we've seen wide industry changes amongst the biggest players because of this battle over brand positioning Kind of in conjunction with that in parallel with that. We've seen developments in the technology Of these biggest players In the market and kind of that's what the rest of my presentation is going to talk about and then we have also seen Advertisers and publishers Online fall in line with the data protection regulation increasingly. We're seeing compliance And so all of these things are about advertisers or about technology companies And in the end it hasn't really mattered whether users Care about privacy or even if they do whether or not it affects their behavior The the the most influential organizations in in our market The the the biggest influences on what we do in digital advertising are kind of Seeing this whole thing snowball caused this whole whole thing to snowball So in a nutshell, what why is this a headache? What's what's the concern? about The changes that we're seeing in the digital advertising industry well third party Identifiers are on the way out and there are alternatives and you know some suggestions about things that we can do Perhaps to replace personal identifiers But overall the writing is on the wall for the third party cookie And for third party advertising or device IDs that we see on mobile devices But you know, this isn't just actually cookies is a nice shorthand, but this isn't just about cookies It's about third party identifiers the kind of identifier that some third party Uses so to track you across sites and apps So that that we're saying goodbye to that The other thing that's happening is that the advertising technology that we use online is being meddled with By mozilla, you know in their firefox browser and and by apple in safari And also in ios We have to be concerned about whether or not we can trust the operation of advertising technology against those types of tech businesses Whose brand position is to protect their users from advertising technology And then finally what we're seeing is the users given the opportunity increasingly Are withholding their own data deliberately they're withholding consent for tracking and so we you know, this is another reason why we have less data with which to Make our advertising work harder Well actually function at all And and the impact on the digital advertising industry has to do with targeting So we're less will the audiences that we've traditionally used are less available And the identifiers the those cookie ids for example That that fill those audience audiences are a gross stale. They refer to to broken Identities right there basically the id doesn't mean anything anymore And then in bidding, you know, we rely a lot on on data that tracks that we've seen some success online But that tracking is less reliable and so the algorithms that optimize our advertising Towards those successes are less effective And then finally when it comes to judging the effectiveness of the advertising that we invest in Again, we have Measures of success that are less reliable or that are incomplete and in some cases like for example Being able to track that somebody has seen an ad that's an ad impression It relies on cross-site tracking or it has done until now Like that that data may be completely unavailable Altogether, you know for some campaigns And for the delivery of some ads So that impacts on our ability to measure success and to improve and to plan But it's going to be okay There's three areas that I want to talk to you about today that are about responding to everything I've just said and adapting What we do and compensating for these changes You'll have noticed already that this is a presentation about digital marketing And that there are some technical concepts in it and I will try very hard to make them really accessible But if there's anything in here that you don't get because of language or because it's a new idea Please make a note and I promise I will make it clearer in the q&a So privacy readiness This is about protecting data quality Now it's not a one-off fix. It's not like something you that we can do now just to instantly be ready for the future I'm not going to explain all the items on this roadmap, but you see it's it's like a journey of increasing Maturity in your approach to protecting the quality Of your data and and first of all I want to talk about like I'm going to show you a couple of ideas of some of the tools and the techniques that do appear on this on this kind of illustrative roadmap and I want to start with the idea of compliance with data protection regulation and how that Prevents us from having as much data from from users as we used to Advertisers and publishers are going to need to comply properly with data protection law And you still see lots of examples where the consent questions on websites aren't Aren't really legitimate. They don't actually offer any choice But that's uh, you know, you better check with your lawyer, right? I'm just providing information, but that's not legal so We've seen so far 229 fines under the gdpr For illegal data processing and you might think oh well, you know in the uk the information commissioners office They're going after the likes of british airways and experience ticket master like massive Businesses and I'm not affected, but we are seeing in in other countries in europe that for example in spain Uh, a company that sells motorbikes was fine for insufficient legal basis for data processing That in other words that means not having consent For for for tracking people and in italy a website that sells wild mushrooms So it it I think this is going to catch up to us in the uk And we are seeing um, I work for a digital marketing agency crowd among our Crime base. We are definitely seeing increasing concern and questions about compliance with the law So here's one thing that we can do about it. This is um related to um google's advertising and tracking Products, uh google have a feature called consent mode I think this is a good example of how we can think differently And bring new data science techniques To play that allow us to um get past Some of the challenges that I talked about So you've got some users that come into your website But only 70 percent of them consent to being tracked and traditionally that means that there's this chunk of Of users that you don't track you might know roughly how many Didn't consent, but you have no idea how many Didn't convert or what pages they looked at or anything like that So it's very difficult You kind of have to ignore the section of your audience of your customer perspective customer base who don't consent to being tracked Well consent mode Allows the tracking technology to continue to function But to do so without collecting personal data Technically it uses random user IDs So it isn't tracking anybody. It's like it's counting the the the behaviors on the website including the conversions It aggregates them and then discards those individual individual hits But google's then able to use modeling To attribute the lost conversions You basically you're you're filling back in the conversions that you lost and uh so far the results from this technology It's it's restoring 70 percent of the of the conversions that couldn't be tracked because of Withheld consent. So no cookies being set for that 30 percent of the site's Traffic, but uh, we still have a good measure of how that traffic performed Here's another idea. So first party data for conversion tracking You may have heard about the facebook conversions api And there is another product from google for google ads called enhanced conversions that that adopts a similar technique I try to explain what i'm talking about here. So on the left hand side We we've got an eye in a cookie, right? So so that is a user seeing an ad and being cookie And the data about that is tracked to the ad platform to facebook called google But as they you know as time passes as they progress around the internet their browser Let's say it's safari Breaks that cookie expires it. Uh, and so there is no longer a valid reference to the person who saw the ad So when they convert on the right hand side The the measurement about their conversion relates to a broken cookie. And so that conversion Can't be Linked so the advertising campaign the help to cause it So the solution for this is that the conversion is also Like the let's say it's a sale on an e-commerce website Data about that sale the factor that it happens is also of course on your e-commerce platform Or in your crm platform. So it's on some server side application And the the technical solution here is to have the name and the email address and the phone number and the postal address And maybe some other stuff that you know about the user about your customer There's personally identifiable And have it delivered to facebook and google with the record of the of a conversion Those ad platforms hold that same personal information about their users And so that personal information is used as the basis for identifying where the conversion came from So it works within the walled gardens, right? It works within facebook It works within within google, but Advertisers are seeing significant uplifts to the conversions that they're able to observe By putting some of these technologies in place Okay, another one This is how this is a diagram that shows how Tracking on websites works today. So we normally use a tag management system And that allows us to kind of helps us to put into the website all the different tracking technologies that we need to to track the way the the website is used track the performance of the The advertising and so on and each of those trackers or tags is sending its data off To the servers of the of the tracking vendor, whether it's google or some other measurement or or audience technology And an alternative to this is emerging and facebook in particular are saying this is the future Of tracking digital advertising and that's server side tracking So the model here is that on the website on the left hand side You still have a tag manager, but it might only have one tag in it And that one tag sends its data to a Kind of like an equivalent tag manager That we call it a container by on your server on your server not on google or anybody else's it's on your server And inside that container on your server are the tracking tags that send the data off to your various technology partners It means that on the website returning to the left hand side of the diagram We've got one tag. It's a first party tag the technology for it comes from your Web domain, so it's really robust and it's very difficult to imagine At like apple itp. For example, you know apples tracking prevention technology It's very hard to imagine apple seeing that as third party advertising technology There's nothing about it. That's that's third party So first party data, that's the other that's the other Area where we can respond the reason that people are talking about first party data So much is that it addresses so many of the issues That that we face. So audiences are breaking down. Well, you can define them with first party data I should say by the way first party data is the data that you hold and control It describes your customers and it it will it will often it will almost always be Personally identifiable so names email addresses phone numbers what people bought how long you've known them all the stuff that's in your crm Right, so you can use that to to compensate for the The failure in third party audiences. You can reinforce conversion tracking as we've already seen In digital attribution, that's increasingly broken, but we can shift our efforts towards understanding the value of customers better Instead of fussing over how to attribute their them, you know First having been acquired. I'll give you some examples of that later and then automation. So there are technologies that are available to everyone now Built into into advertising platforms that level the playing field. You don't have to be You can be good at google ads, right? But so is everybody else because it's automated anyway Well, first party data is your new unique asset that you can leverage that allows you to be market beating Again, here's a here's another one of these it's it's not a one-off fix roadmap type things But it starts with segmenting your customer base and and uploading audience lists There's there's automation. I've mentioned crm is important This is this relates to making sure that your crm program integrates properly With your your bidder ball, you know, your digital advertising activity And then on the right hand side, there are different techniques for Like new and better Measures of value that you can achieve through Prediction machine learning prediction. So most of this starts by drawing two sets of data together on the left hand side here We have all the data that describes the journey of your prospective customers through to the point when you acquired them Through to the point when they first Transacted on your website and then on the right hand side The symbol there represents all the data that you know about the value of your customers. What did they do? How often did they repeat purchase? What what what do we know about their profile? But you know, especially their value, right? So we bring those two data sets together One thing that we can do is use machine learning to cluster that complete data set and it will reveal a lot about the Different profiles among your highest value customers. So on the left hand side here, imagine this is a b2b Advertiser, we've got this really interesting high value high lifetime value cluster that tend to be They tend to have high value deals Their transactions are highly valuable They close those deals in a reasonable amount of time and they have a preference towards a certain category of product on cluster b we've got We've got customers who tend to repeat right so they might not be high value deals But they repeat a lot and they always close quickly and they prefer a certain A different product category. Well, if your business needs volume Then you target you switch your budget to cluster b if you need revenue and you can Make a longer play then then you then you get your marketing strategy behind cluster a You know how to speak to these people because you know what products they prefer And you might if your data set includes it you might know how to reach them like how old are they? Where are they geographically you can even run out the record of customers that that are literally in in these clusters That emails their names and so on and use them as the basis of first party data Audiences as I mentioned before. Okay, and this one. I mean This is kind of like a mind-blowing thing for me when I first began to understand what we can do with first party data So at the top there you have that merging of the data sets and then down and on the right hand side You have the clustering and the audiences that I talked about but down the middle We can develop a model that's able to predict the lifetime value on the basis of the acquisition data Because we brought those two data sets together Well, we can host that predictive model so that it becomes a live in-flight campaign asset Then when new customers are acquired we send the data that describes their acquisition to the model Retrieve a prediction about their long-term value and use it You know leverage it with the automated bidding algorithms and the ad platforms that we use and suddenly we've got a new marketing machine here That doesn't just bid to acquire new customers. It bids to acquiring the highest value new customers Okay, so how do how do you begin all this? Well, um, these are the simple first steps find out about your data So what systems is your data on who is in charge of those systems? What data are we talking about? What's the schema? And then find out what quality is it? Uh, you know, what what um, what state is it in are there problems with it? These are the, um, these are the uh, uh, the questions that you need to answer early on So that you can put yourself in a position to begin down that roadmap that I showed at the beginning of this section So I'm on to my last area now, which is effectiveness So what we mean by effectiveness is that We we have focused in digital marketing a lot on digital attribution This has always been the special Power of digital marketing is that we can track individuals and we can track ads and we can match ads Directly to the individuals and what they did. Well, that is breaking down as as I've been explaining And so digital attribution is no longer The sort of sole method that we ought to focus all our efforts on There are lots of reasons for wanting performance data We might want it for the bidding and the automation that I mentioned earlier managing our budget across budgets across channels Maybe regular reporting on performance reporting to different stakeholders making creative and strategy decisions There might be some ad hoc reporting that we need to do, you know a spec that we haven't necessarily foreseen and so on and Like I've said digital attribution used to be the core and perhaps the only method for providing the data for all those use cases And so on this on the screen here you can see two Facts It is not true anymore that any single method can meet all performance data needs and also It's not like we've got a different perfect method that we can suddenly start pursuing Every measurement method is flawed So by measuring every objective in your marketing strategy In at least two different ways Then we can we can arrive at a balanced view of performance It's that the you know the truth is going to be somewhere near the intersection of those two views of performance So digital attribution is on the left-hand side there and I've mentioned it a bit already. It's still very important It's our day-to-day technique for getting quick um A quick measure, you know, um near real-time data about the performance of the campaigns that we're running So we definitely need it and you can imagine, um camp, you know, your channel teams or um You know your your campaign teams launching some new creative or making adjustment to a targeting Strategy or something like that and just wanting a quick read early on as to how it's um, You know the difference it's making If you know the flaws in digital attribution Then you that empowers you to use it and you can still get a reading on the the impact that your change has had controlled experiments So I mean we are all familiar with the idea of split testing and especially in digital It's something that we have always done. This is a reference though to not not not split testing samples You know like defined by cookies on a website But it will normally be regional control cells where we hold back some budget Or weight the budget differently to see what the impact has been of a new A new change to our campaigns or a new change to our activity It is a different mindset for digital marketers Because we've normally thought of split testing as a technique that we use to like Optimize to make make something better. Oh, let's let's introduce a Version two of that creative and see whether or not it It performs better than the previous one and we can still do that But but what I'm talking about here is a program of testing that's designed to establish benchmarks that you can use to uh Calibrate digital attribution These are benchmarks that answer like strategic measurement questions So if you know you need to refresh your view on what Facebook impressions do for you Or like the the total effect of facebook activity, which is hard to measure It's hard to measure in digital attribution Well, then you set up a split test that establishes that every three months and and there will be And you use it to calibrate the digital attribution metrics And there will be other questions that you need to answer in the same way causal effect analysis. We use a A data science technique called causal impact And this approach is about using data science to to forecast the expected value of a kpi based on Based on a long history and and sort of like benchmarking it against other time series Um relevant time series data So it's a bit like you're saying we did something at a certain point in time And at that point of time if nothing had changed then how would the kpi have continued on into the future? and then you compare that to the The actual performance of the kpi and so prove the incremental uplift of whatever it was that you did At that moment in time and then we have marketing mix modeling. That's like the the roles Royce of Cooculus attribution and this will tell us The contribution that you know many elements of our of the marketing mix including what competitors were doing or seasonality or You know, you could you could put a A metric that's a proxy for the impact of co vid into your marketing mix, you know over time And this would tell you, you know, what is causing performance? It's a brilliant tool. It's a brilliant approach takes a lot of work and a lot of data So that's why it needs to be in the In the palette for us to choose from in the toolkit But like all the others is not the only method. Oh and just to point out those don't need cookies Where are we going? We don't need cookies. Here's an example of causal impact So the output looks a bit like this. You can see the green line and the margin of error around it That's where we would have expected the the kpi to go But we we observed an uplift and this this example for one client revealed that they had not understood 70 000 pounds worth of value from the activity that they ran there we go, so Privacy readiness. This is how to adapt To protect the quality of your data. They're given what's happening in the industry first party data This is about how to compensate and and to To realize a different competitive asset and then effectiveness is about adaptation to what's happening in the industry and making sure That you have more than one Method in your in your measurement toolkit Next steps on the on the right hand side Think about whether on your business is complying with data protection regulation and plan For when it's going to if it doesn't already think about how Consent or the absence of it is going to affect your marketing and how therefore you can You know modify the way that you collect data I would I also really believe that server side tracking is is very important to the future of digital advertising So think about your roadmap towards it and there are small steps that you can take and then data discovery I talked about Systems stakeholders schema and quality so do that exercise get yourself ready to use first party data and then finally Take a new view on On your approach to effectiveness and make sure it is a considered program with I with a diverse set of Methodologies Give me a shout if you'd like to I'm kevin joiner director of data solutions at crowd. So hopefully I'll hear from you That's great. Thanks very much Kevin for a really good in-depth technical presentation Okay, um, Kevin. We're now going to have a short q&a session First question is are you aware of any plans for the uk to implement the proposed eu The privacy regulations it all went quiet a while ago and I can't find any information on it anywhere I better not speculate. I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't know what the plan is for that Not a very good answer to my first question, but We'll have to wait and see. There's no point in me. I guessing right? Sorry Okay, well, you'll have to do better with this one then. Um, is server side tracking difficult to implement bearing in mind Dev back logs. Most of us are resting with Um, I put it on my website. Don't bother visiting it kevin joiner.com And I did it in I think half an hour. Maybe something like that Maybe less. I mean, I did understand the technical directions um, it you know, and I'm talking about using Google tag managers server side container um But of course, like if it's your personal website, you don't have so much to worry about like taking the site down by accident But it isn't a big deal You you know, it helps if you're already using um google cloud platform, but it will work with Other cloud platforms as well um If you're not already using google cloud platform, you can talk to a reseller like crap um, and uh, you don't have to like Move all your tags right that would be a big and serious undertaking but setting up the container and doing something like Using it to introduce google analytics 4 to your website if you don't already have it there or or moving a default implementation of of google analytics To your server side container that that's very simple to do and and is a is a good first step There are um, there are other uh ways to do it another kind of products in in this area. So um, you'll have heard of cdp's customer data platforms They are effectively so, you know, they can effectively offer server side tracking So if you're already using one of those then you may have almost already have everything you need in place Um, and if you're using other tag managers, I mean, telem has evolved into a cdp Uh, anyway, but telem has had, you know, sometimes had server side tracking features But in short if you're if you're using google tag manager, um, it's not uh, it's not a massive undertaking um So there you go Okay, great. Um, so let's have a look So question around the google analytics actually in the last year or so um We've seen major changes Due to gdpr, etc. So for example headline data such as time on site events rate and Related deeper data have also major shifts. Is there any way to aggregate these out other than trying to encourage cookie acceptance? Which as you say is not the future um No, I mean the the the changes in the metrics like especially the users metric is a key example some of the people like in my uh, in my analytics theme Don't really pay attention to that metric anymore in the current version of google analytics because it has become unreliable and You know, it's like the nature of the problem that there's not very much we can do about that Um, if there is an opportunity for you to introduce a first party user identifier into google analytics, then that will help a lot And I also I strongly recommend beginning to work with google analytics for because it it is more robust in some of these like user identifier um With with some of these like identifying users challenges and the metrics are different as well Like the way that the time on site and bounce rate and all that will not bounce rate But but engagement with the site the way that all of that is um, it is tracked Is different and better And also more at home with app tracking, you know g a4 is actually More an app tracking originally an app tracking platform with web May to fit in which is maybe a Like very sensible given the way that people use the internet now so Yeah, those are my My comments on it but without looking at the data and understanding exactly what's happened in it And also the website that you're tracking from I probably can't go much deeper on it You just mentioned g a4. Um, somebody's asked is that an essential cookie? No, I mean, I'm not a lawyer Um, you know, you'll have to make your own mind up about that. Um, but Yeah, I don't know my I have to we do have to be cautious about interpreting the law for our clients And here I am like speaking to quite a few people and and um, You know, so you have to make your your mind up about that but, um If if tracking if cookies are essential to your website It means that the the website Can't function without them and that the experience whatever it is the user is trying to do They won't be able to do it If if that that technology is not functioning so Analytics, you know measurement technologies are in my view Not essential Okay, um Do all sites need accept manage or decline options on their cookie policies to avoid Risk of a GDPR fine or can you still get away with just accept for now? Yeah, so I kind of refer to this in in the presentation Um, you know, you again you have to talk to your legal team. You have to make your own mind up about it but if you read the uh information commissioner Commissioner's office website um, they will say that um, just Telling people that they're being tracked and giving them a button to dismiss That banner Is uh, is not compliant And in fact, you know, again read read the ICO's guidance on this but um You know my view is that Uh, and I believe it's the law um You know if you don't uh, if you if you if you load tracking technology of any kind apart from essential You know cookies before the user has has expressed Their choice about consent then that's illegal or you know, that does not comply Um, which is why we need a solution like google consent mode, which I Uh, which I presented about so Take a look at this question when I talked about looking at compliance and putting your plan together Yeah, take a look at this carefully. You don't and don't look at what other websites are doing if you want to know what the law is Um, try and work out, you know, you know what you want to do about the law um, and I think as I've said like Increasingly advertisers and publishers are going to need to comply the ICO Um complied with their own guidance um In the way that I've described and they lost A visibility of 90 of their traffic So, you know, and that's you can look that up. That's um, that's documents written about online and uh, you know So what I the other thing I'd add is that the user experience of the consent question is really important You know, you can comply with the law But uh, make sure that you get a choice from the user You know, you can make your own mind up about how abrupt you want to be But let's say you do a full page overlay with a yes no and no cross, right? Then at least you get a choice, you know, at least you get a decision from the user Almost the worst thing is to make it too easy for the user to ignore the consent Question make yes big green button and make no gray or you know, whatever you can do that kind of stuff Okay, um Got another question that relates to service eye tracking again, um, Kevin So do you have any recommendations for an overview on setting up service eye tracking or a how-to guide? Uh, it's well docked. So again for the one I know most about is um, a server side GTM google tag manager container and the documentation on On google's website is is good. It's like step by step. So, um, I would take a look at that Yeah, it's the best thing. Okay. Thanks um Okay If we have a first party data collection focus By our competitions opt-in for marketing Tags in analytics, etc Once we've got that customer data without a cookie this goes into a CRM. How do How do I use that data to serve them communications other than facebook ads and emails? um So so I think may be the reference to facebook ads has to do with them being on your facebook page or something like that. Um Oh, well, anyway, the the approach here is to um is to prepare lists of customer records and um for google, I believe it's that they need to contain at least the the email address. Um, but it varies from different platforms uh google Google ads facebook twitter linkedin all have a feature along these lines That that customer data is hashed. It's like a one-way encryption and uh, it it's up. Then you you'll upload it through the uh, the ad platforms api And then with a match to the ad platforms record of users the audience is formed So in the case of google ads that feature is called customer match Um and facebook has a very very similar feature. It is a bit tricky and it depends what um, I mean It's a data engineering solution that we're talking about And it depends what crm you're using so, you know, you perhaps you can have your crm platform regularly export Customer lists and then some script Running on google cloud platform that collects the list and hashes it and delivers it to the api If you're using sales force marketing cloud, for example, they have a module called Advertising studio that that makes the whole thing quite simple Um, and indeed like if you've got google analytics 360 the enterprise Version of google analytics and you're using sales force marketing cloud You don't even need to really worry about um audience lists at all because the audiences in marketing cloud can be automatically synced with um google analytics Which can then be imported to google ads and um your your display activity that you might Run on google remember like these lists like for in order for them to work They've got to have a minimum number of users in them. So it it would normally be something like a thousand Um, so yeah, I don't don't think of it, you know with email You can send a person an email and it can be personalised for that one individual Well, this is about building advertising audiences. So it's a little bit broader um than that Okay, and I think we've got time for just one more question, uh, kevin and this is around um b2b marketing So what advice do you have for a b2b company that uses cookie-based advertising? Lee generation to build first party data Where existing first party data is limited and clients are buying high value items once or twice in their lifetime Hmm um well, I think um like when the when the Like um, what do you call it the the pace of new customer acquisition deals being signed is quite slow It means you have quite low volume of data that describes the ultimate business objective those deals, right? The volume of data is quite low there. So you can't it is more difficult to do things like predicting the long-term value of of You know customers like the deal that they're going to sign But you can go up the funnel. So most b2b advertisers have a sales process Uh, and they're concerned with things like how fast does the lead go through that sales process getting rid of the duds right at the beginning um, uh, you know the normally like you'll you'll score the leads Or you'll validate them as an opportunity and add some estimated value or something like that So all of those are are good measures of value um, so you the simplest thing is just to begin to work with the lists of leads You know as soon as you can put a good Value on them the lists of leads that um are looking like the highest value That are moving through the sales funnel fastest and with least effort and use them as the basis of your audiences I think that would be my Yeah, I think that's my my main recommendation for b2b Okay, that's great. Thanks very much Kevin for that and thanks for all the answers to all of the questions for today Um, that is all the time that we have for today's webinar So I'd just like to say thank you to Kevin for today's presentation and to the CIM southeast For organizing the event. We do hope you found it interesting and worthwhile Our next webinar express crisis leadership how to lead effectively In the toughest circumstances on monday the 14th of june at 1 p.m Hosted by CIM southwest you'll find further details listed on the events page on the CIM website where you'll also Be able to register for the session So on behalf of CIM thank you once again, Kevin a really good presentation really good qna And thank you for joining us. We hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Bye