 into it and the names are really powerful as well. So immediately he said next to me on my right, he's Calvin Kanagi, correct me if I mispronounce it as well. He'll tell us what he does in the company. Then next to him is Videlis Hakim. Good morning, Karibuni Sana. How's it going? All right, so I'm going to start off with you Calvin. What do you do at the company that you got and how have you brought in your tech skills? Okay, thank you very much for having me here. My name is Calvin Kanagi. I am a software developer and entrepreneur. So we started this company in the year 20. What is the name of the company first? Urban ASP. Urban? ISP. ISP, does the initial have a full meaning? Well, initially we started as an internet service provider but with time, with the need in the society, we transformed into a big tech company that we are offering every solution like in software, internet, and also any startup that want to go online. All right, that's good. So you'll tell us what software as an internet means too. A person who doesn't understand software as an internet. What about you, Hakim? Yeah, good morning. Videlis, should I go with Videlis or Hakim? You can use any, yeah. A brief intro about yourself. Yeah, so basically I'm a software developer too, but I run mostly the entrepreneurial beat of the organization. Yeah, mainly matters business and growth, yeah. Please remind me the name of the company. Urban. Urban. ISP. Urban ISP, Urban Internet Service Provider. That's what it means. Yeah. All right, so let me get back to Calvin once again. When you speak of software and IT, there's a lot that comes in there. And for a person who is watching right now, maybe if you can break it down to some of the services that you are offering to now, let's imagine the local manager, some of the subscribers or some of the clients that you guys have money to work with, what was the feedback? What was the first interaction? And when was it? So you can start with when and the services that you guys offer. First of all, to start with, when you talk about tech, mostly we talk about bridging the distance between two people. It's like taking a shot in the distance. Like now, the way we are communicating here and the viewers who are watching us, they're able to get us because of the softwares and the internet that they're able. So we have shot in the distance between our communication and them. They're able to get us and they can give us a feedback. So basically that is tech. We ensure that the distance between of relaying information is shot in. So in the year 2018, they are willing. That's when you started. Yes, two years before COVID. So we saw an inch in the industry. We wanted to ensure that communication is seamless and efficient. So in that, we wanted to improve the internet. Around Thika Road. So we started as a small startup. I was with my friend. We were the founders of the company. Then with progress, we started increasing the numbers. As the startup start, you are able to face some challenges of the startups like funding, but you are able to mitigate through. Until now, where we are, we can see that we are a big company that is able to give solutions in the industry. Okay, who are your first clients and what service did they get from Urban ISP? Our first clients were our friends. That's why sometimes when you have good friends, they are able to give you support. So our friends were our first client. Then with referrals, we moved up steadily. All right, good. How have you done this? You said either. So you said you're handling the entrepreneurial part. And you know, being a businessman, you require a lot of skills that includes inter and interpersonal skills. Meaning, I'll explain, enter your relationship with yourself sometimes determine a relationship with how you relate with other people. And that speaks of PR. So what made you so become inviting that now people are looking out for your company? What made it so unique that there's now clients coming in, streaming in? I don't know if they're coming in, I'm just assuming. So you'll tell us if you still have clients coming in or not, it died. But of course it's still a live business. That's why you're here on TV to talk about it. So tell us about that. Yeah, so in the beginning, we went in to offer the solution. And that's sort of attracted most people. Yeah, you know, when most people get into business, they go with the target of making money and profits. I thought that should be the target. No, when you go with that target, you're likely to fail because you're likely to do what everyone does. But when you're going to solve the problem, everyone is likely to come for the solution. So going through the mindset of bringing solutions on the table. Help people not go there with the mindset of making profited money. Good one. So when basically you solve their problems, they have an offer for you. That's the profit you make. So basically that's how we go to grow. And initially our first aim was to grow a peer community where we get to help people learn dev from the less fortunate people or let's say from the poor backgrounds. You get to offer them sponsorships and peer help. So then later on we could incorporate them into projects where they get to grow and build their skills. Later on that we got to build a market and a client. Workforce, yeah. All right, good. Still on that you mentioned dev. It means development and software. And both of you in common have mentioned your software developer. So perhaps you can mention to us for a person who has no clue what is software developing and then we can transition that into coding. And you will mention things like Laravel and there's so many JavaScript whatever. I've not studied it but I've read about it so in a one, two, three. So you will mention to us about that as well. So if you can explain to us what is software developing and then transition into coding and how you've incorporated that in your company as well. Still Videlis. Okay, so software development is basically building interfaces that aid communication. Yeah, so basically like a software, basic software, let's talk of something that everyone has encountered. Websites have the front end. That's our website. We have the graphical user interface. That's what when you Google, for example, Y254, what pops onto your screen. Website and the graphical representation. Yeah, it's a graphical representation. Then there's a back end. Which controls what you see and how it pops up. For example, you'll have graphics moving. That's controlled on the back end. You'll have a button, maybe a contact button. You'll have the appearance, maybe the color. A written contact, maybe a blue in color. When you click it, it will pull a process. The process is controlled on the back end. So software development is integrating the back end and the front end to bring up an interface that performs a specific function that you intend to work on. That's a good introduction for an antique class about that. So in short, it means your front end, you're the user consuming and already constructed interface that's been controlled by a manufacturer or a controller. Yeah, right, good one. Now coding, we'll talk about it in a little bit. Now, coding, talk about it and what it means for a person watching. Coding, first of all, we can start with the hardware and the software communicate. Software and coding. Mostly, for the software to communicate with the hardware, there's a level that they communicate in a bunch of zeros and ones. Zeros and ones. What does that mean? So that's the basic level that's what we call the machine language. Right. So for the software to communicate with the machine, they communicate in zeros and ones. But for us humans, it is very difficult to write that code, like write zeros and ones and make sense. So that's where coding comes in. And coding, they have something we call the compilers. So the compilers, they help. When you write a code, the compilers, they help to act on a level of abstraction. Thereby, you can write a real code, the language that you are using. Then they compile the translating to zeros and ones so that it can make sense to the machine. So that's basically coding. Then coding, we have a number of languages. Like we can start with JavaScript, React and everything. So there are so many languages. Depending on your choice, you can choose the language that best suits you and the one that you can work with. You can easily work with. Then with these languages, they also perform specific tasks. Like you can choose this language to develop this. So that's coding. Then coding is a skill that everyone can learn. Wherever you are, like any language, now we are speaking in English, but it's not our language. It's something that we learned. And also in the machine language, it's something that you can learn. Then there's no age that you can say, like if you are 60... You can't learn coding. As long as you can read and write, you can learn. You can learn. You can learn, read, learn, and learn. And it's important. So in that coding process, you guys, if now maybe you can explain to us, why is it common nowadays? Like there's now companies advertising, there's even schools that are recruiting. Even young learners are as low as high school. Not even as low as primary school, even nursery. I've seen, I saw an advert where there's a nursery school trying to teach the children how to code. Why is it important to have skills of coding? You see the society is ever changing. Like from the 80s, actually the internet was born in the, around 80s, 70s, around there. So initially, what people used to was using those traditional means. But as the internet grew, there's need so that, there's need to include everyone. That's why there are so many, there's a rise of number of people joining tech. Just like in farming, there was a time that everyone was into farming. But we realized that land is fixed. It is fixed. You can't take, you can't expand or increase land. But if the internet, it's endless. It's endless and a lot of opportunities there. So, and nowadays the internet is accessible almost everywhere. And now just to mention, like the government had said that, we are going to have hotspot areas around the country. So you realize that when the internet is accessible, then you have to increase the services that we are going to offer. Because now people are moving from the analog world to the digital, everyone. So there's need to make sure that everyone is included, right? Let me come back to you, Hakimi Bhatt. When I come back to you, Calvin, you will tell us what are some of the coding languages that you mentioned and how, what is there? Maybe examples of a best and a well-secured or developed website and some of its features. So you're paying for us that picture. Now for you, Hakim, you mentioned how you guys are doing outreach and you're giving this excellent service to your clients. How did you manage to have this group of people that you're working with that are now stuck with you and the support that you're getting? There may be partnerships that you had to go for. Did you have to raise a campaign or an awareness and how that you know, here you are talking about it on TV? Yeah. So to start with, we had to get our workforce first. That's the labor to work with. So being in tech, the first person I got is my friend Calvin. He had friends, I had friends. We came together and created a pool of developers. So we started working on projects together without funding initially. Then we started selling them and pitching to other companies. Then later on, after selling some products to other companies and services, we got refunds. What did you put up together and pitch to a company? Because I have a friend who's also a coder. And he was giving me his rate card. And he has a very huge amount of money. So it was done no at first. The silence at first already pitched. And they accepted and you guys kicked off. What we sold was a solution to the companies. We started by identifying local businesses and offering solutions that they needed for their businesses. You know, you find like in our current day, probably that having a website is having a running online business. But basically, that's not all. You need to have awareness out there. So we have the how to search engine optimization. So for some companies that had their website running, but they didn't have the awareness, we offered them optimization. Maybe you can explain what SE all means, and optimization for anyone who doesn't understand. So such engine optimization is just increasing the awareness or availability of your, let's say, business, the network. Making it searchable, like the first time you search it to YouTube, whatever, pops up. And maybe what can make it visible? What are some of the features that make a business visible? Increasing the keywords, having a more interactive website. Interactive meaning it has features that are user-friendly, very colorful and bold. Yeah, and attractive. That makes it more available, because many people are likely to be attracted to it. The more people get to click or open your site, the more it's likely to pop up. And the more it pops up, the more likely you are to sell. Yeah, so some of our first products we sold were solutions to problems that business had. Maybe you can also narrow it down to the solutions, because when you say solutions, it's general. Maybe so what company and what service? Yeah, for example, Zejda. Zejda was starting a networking company also. They had the manpower. They had their finances and everything, well, put well in order. So they are starting their business selling people Wi-Fi, but they didn't have a website. We built their websites. We did the search engine optimization for them. We also helped them do the marketing and the awareness campaigns to help them grow. We've done a number of websites, apparently for a number of businesses. You can still mention them since it's you who made it. Yeah, though some of them, we are semantic. It's an NDA, non-disclosure agreement, okay, good, I got you. I'll come back to you still shortly. So you can tell us the coding languages and what is a description of a well-developed website and maybe the process of even developing it, so you can divert into it. So currently there are so many languages in the field. Like initially we started with C, C++, C-shop. Now that we have JavaScript, Python, there are so many languages and in fact I can tell you that even tomorrow we are going to have another one. So in terms of languages, they're ever evolving, but one thing you realize that. So you can learn Laravel and still use Python and still use JavaScript. First of all, what is the difference? Laravel, Python, JavaScript. The difference between these languages is what they can do. What software do you want to build and which type of solution do you want to solve? So that's the difference between these languages. So depending on the need you have, maybe in your organization, in what you want to build and the problem you're facing, you're going to choose a certain language. But if you want to join tech, you have to study the basic levels like C, C++ because those are the fundamental, like they are the building blocks for these languages. Even today you can find that, even in Python there are some aspects of C, but you find that with the improvement of these languages, they're somehow becoming, can I say it easier? Like they're trying to ensure that even the basic person can join, can write a code, which can be translated into machine language easily. Yeah, so there are so many languages. So the one that you've managed to use for yourself in your study is the common deal that you used? As my friend said, we started an organization like we train people. So I have mastered a number of languages. So I'm pretty good. You can sell yourself, you know? Sell yourself. We are teachers, so in most of the languages that are in the field right now, we can teach you. And we have so many, we have so many, how can I say? It's like we have built a school for this language for training people into code. So you want to learn? So I wanted you to mention like you're a master in JavaScript, master in Python, master in Laravel. I have mastered JavaScript. That's my best. I have mastered Python and also the building languages like CC++ that are also in my database. And there are so many other developments in there. I consult a lot from Marvin Sharad, he's a coding guru. The ones you mastered as well before you tell us the people that you've done charity with? Yeah, I'm a Python enthusiast, all the Python. But Python is a snack, but here it's a coding language. It's a coding language. Maybe you can explain. I'm not going to say, it's an IT lingo. Apparently if you want to go into AI, machine learning. Good, love that you mentioned AI. Python is the way to go. It's so easy. Apparently Python and JavaScript are the same thing. They vary slightly. It's like Spanish and English. They're the same thing, but they vary slightly. So once you master JavaScript, you can do Python. You just need some basic practice and training. There's one of my friends who did a Python exam. No, it was Laravel. Like what he said, exam your tutorial is about Laravel. So there's a way that they can test you at school on JavaScript from question one to the last. So it depends on the institution. But for coding, it's project-based. My project-based. This one was in a university center, but then as an exam. So there's no way you could escape it, say it's a project or it's an optional exam. So apparently for us, we grade our students or our peer students in terms of the success of the projects. We get to work on projects with them. They come up with projects. They come up with projects that are re-assigned. No, they come up with their own projects. We are trying to bring up the entrepreneurship beat in them. So they come up with it. We help them verify it, build it to the end whenever they're stuck. We come through. Then later on, they work on projects on their own. If someone does like two to three projects, that guy is good to go into the market and do his own thing or her own thing. So who do you say is a polished coder? Actually, Karibuni spills secrets, but thank you God. So who is a seasoned coder? But you say, hey, whom say? But I'm Simcheze. He's a hotcake on the market of cording an IT. Whoever can do back-end and front-end, sweet-end? Exactly, nice. You've answered me in the head. It's good. So for example, here, try to, for before we continue, if that person that you've said can do back-end and front-end, which is common even in data. At least we do alcohol. How do you do that? Who are the silicates behind these mysterious biometric app? So for RCA to IT, for for, if you were to come and do back-end and front-end, what is the conversation with the first half with our IT manager? Pardon again. If you were to come to Y254 and offer a back-end and front-end service, what is the first conversation you're going to have with an IT manager here? Yeah, first of all, we'll have to point out what we feel you're lacking. Then point out how we feel we'll offer it. So this means you'll have a conversation with the IT manager to explain here that here's how we run our IT arena. Or you'll do your research online and do your notes and then give them feedback. We'll do our own research. So you'll reorganize the patient, nice. I love that, I love that. Okay. Because that makes us more relevant in your company and more comfortable. Right. So for example, this is a TV station. Maybe what are some of the IT back-end services that you'd like maybe to know in terms of operations and interactions, of course, with software? Yeah. First of all, I think we mentioned earlier, we are now moving into AI as a company. We are trying to focus a lot on AI. We are teaching our people or we are learning as a peer community more of AI. And I think your company or your station will do with a lot of AI now. When you mention AI, the first thing, actually, the common thing people say is robots. But no, there's a difference between chart GPT and robotics and these other type and it gives you what you need. Almost similar to Google. So maybe if you can contrast for someone who doesn't understand robotics and AI. So AI basically is artificial intelligence. Intelligence is the knowledge, the coded knowledge in someone. How someone processes some information and reacts to it. That's intelligence. So AI is basically training machines to receive and process information in a given manner. That is AI. Basically, it's a command. You're keying in what you want and then it gives you. But then it just so happens that these instructions that I have been given by you as the consumer or the person feeding on this device. It's another person who keyed in those instructions as well. Exactly. So in robotics, robots are basically tools meant to make work easy, such as same to AI. But robots use artificial intelligence. So robots consume artificial intelligence. And still it's human best. It's human feeding this. Exactly. Why do they say that robots are going to take over our jobs while it's still human beings who are running AI and running robotics as well? I think people have different perspectives of AI. As for me, I view AI as a tool, not a competition. So AI is meant to make life easier, not to send you out of the market. All day, all night, AI will need you to work. It can't work on its own. So it's basically a tool to make your work easier. So the more we are getting into the AI world, I think people should focus more on building their skills or building their relevance in the world of AI. Do you feel like maybe it will reach your place where it's going to be like a compulsory unit in uni and in primary school now? Thank God they've introduced CBC. Maybe in 100 years. Maybe in 100 years. Our system is still. You don't see AI as the future of tech? AI is the future. Good. But as a compulsory subject, I think our education system is still lagging behind. Right. I'll come back to that. Calvin, you were to tell us what is a secure website and what are some of the features that show you that when you go in business, they're business insecure. And then let me bring into your outgoing. They came in on the market like a flash flood. Not even on the market. They came in Kenya. They were offering free money. And here they started collecting people's biometrics data. And the only thing that shocked me as well when I spoke to an IT expert friend, she was like, you only have to prove that you're a human being and they give you 7,000 Kenyan shillings and they're not assuring you who is this person at the back end handling this desert. And then there's a place where they explain that this data can be accessed by anyone who has been given permission to run this wildcoy. So if you are somebody who is IT conscious, you're like, nope, red flag, not gonna sign in. Did you catch that as well? Yeah, exactly. So something when it's come to, like let's say a basic website, first of all, what we need to make sure is data, whether the user is entering the data that is being taken in by the website, our securities. So depending on the nature of the data, let's say like somebody is inputting his password under username. So depending on which, let's say, which a website is this, you have to put in mechanisms, like from the user side on the back end. And you also make sure that from the user on the back end, there are firewalls that are preventing, maybe the user can inject some data into your system. Are you gonna submit some data or consume without information? Yes. And when it comes to giving out your data, you have also to be very conscious of what are you giving and who are you giving? And at what time are you giving? Like in the example of Gwadalcoyne, people are giving their IRAs. But you find that what really pushed Kenya into giving their IRAs, which so many Kenyans are not concerned about their data, but they're concerned about their stomachs. So that's why when they were lower deemed by, it was around $7,000 or $6,000 around that. Yeah, $58 years. So that's why they were just giving their data anyhow. And this guy who is the owner of the OpenAI, what is his name? I don't really, but he's the owner of OpenAI. And OpenAI is the one creating just GPT. So maybe they want to create a system that there's a motive behind taking data. But they should not be very conscious about their data they are giving. Right. Do you think they're using Kenya as a guinea pig for their prototype project? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You feel so? Yeah, they are using Kenya and also because they think that we are easy targets. So, but they need for the government to increase social awareness about data. Data protection and privacy. Then they are also this case from Sudan Anonymous. They are taking our internet into... They're trying to hack into the Kenyan. So what could have possibly happened maybe in an IT analysis? Cause in this case, you're a doctor and you're trying to give a diagnosis of what could have happened before this patient got into this mess. So from your understanding, what was your feedback on it? I think maybe as you see from this case, I actually managed to, I saw they were saying that they are doing... Okay, they denied doing the DDoS attacks, but basically that was what they were doing. Like, they were feeding our system. Yeah, the system cannot handle that much. And though as the minister of ICT said, they didn't take any data, they were just doing DDoS attacks. So I think that was it. But you can't know the extent at which they did the attacks. And maybe the government can't reveal to us what they did, but we trust that whatever they did didn't cause so much harm. Not successful. Stay back to your company, Hakim. Maybe how can people plug in and get to know your services? Do you also guys have like a website? Is there, which is also the most consistent service that you guys are offering for your clients? That you'd say this one keeps them coming back since you say you're coming as an entrepreneur part. Yeah, so majorly we do softwares and systems. Softwares and systems. For companies. But recently we introduced another service, whereby we are helping companies do digital migration. For example, the hybridization, the remote working. We've helped one company. Remote working. Have you heard something called IWACA? You've ever heard of IWACA? Yeah. Nice. So apparently we're helping companies move or migrate to remote working or hybrid working and help them meet together the challenges they're facing and adapt. Yeah, so our major focus is building the systems and websites. Do you have a physical location? Where you're best and maybe the building? Yeah, in Thika. In Thika, Mama Jimmy. Yeah. Still on that customer relations experience, interacting with different people makes you learn the mindsets. When people tell you their stories and when somebody presents a problem to you, you're able to assess it and learn this person is coming from a place of need. How do you differentiate between, let's say, a genuine customer and maybe just someone who's up to an attack on Pujari but then at least appear. And if at all it's true, have you ever met clients who just, they poke and then they disappear and there's that one who is intentionally and genuinely seeking your service and you finally even seal a deal, you deliver, get the money and say, God bless your heart. Yeah, so the funny thing, most of the serious people pay before the work is done. Those are serious clients. Yeah, but... How do you quote the figure? Because the quoting, the figure is also cool. Yeah, cool. People believe that there is a, let's say, a standard figure for everything, but every figure comes in terms of the problem or solution we're offering. Some require very little work done. Like what task could completely just require like one, two, three done? Building a landing page. Building a landing? A landing page. A landing? Landing. Landing picture. Page, page. All right. That's so basic. But most of our people, let's say the youth, are wishing or eager to join the business world, but they're not in the capacity. So most of them, someone will wake up in maybe one morning and will feel like, I want to start a business. I want to start the first builder website. Then he'll come to your site and ask, or call you and ask for quotation, then disappear, maybe because they don't have the capacity. They're just hoping one day they'll be in a position, which is okay. So how do you get them back? It's done and dusted, like sharing and evil. Let's pick it up next time we'll get bigger. Most of them come back because when you promise them the solution, they'll come back for the solution. That's what they came for. Yeah, the fact that they don't have the muscle or potential to chip or buy a product at the moment doesn't mean they're not the right customers for you. At a time, they'll come and they'll come back with the amount of money they need, of which we are so cheap. Apparently, we are so affordable. You're sure you're affordable and accessible? Unaccessible, yeah. So you'll tell us more about how people can access your budget towards the end. And then also, in terms of, every business has competition. There's also clients that go and come back. So what is the feedback that you guys get from return clients? There's somebody here in InterVidi said, she said half of her clients are return clients who have also referred other clients and now it's like a whole client base that's just centered on that business. So how do you guys maintain that return and referral base for clients? What we've come to learn over time, whenever you solve someone's problem perfectly, he'll always come back. Because he'll have trust in you. He'll be sure whenever he wants. It's like a barber. When you go to your barber and he does your hair cut the way you want it, you'll always go there. You'll pass very many barber shops. But later you can go to Thika and you stay in Kilimani for that one barber. In short, trust and delivery. Delivering perfectly. We focus mainly on doing our work based on what the customers want, not what we want. We try to focus most on your... So you listen to the needs of the client. Exactly. You know, like developing is more of art. Right. And when it comes to art, different kinds of types of art appeal differently to different people. So when you get to understand someone's type of art, you can easily deliver what they want perfectly. And you're sure they'll come back. So how do you keep customer care relations? Because now, since you're the entrepreneur, a part-ender as well, though you double up on the other duties, how do you keep that relationship fluid? Because you know, sometimes, yes, you've done and sealed the deal, but you don't want to keep in touch with the person because that was working and it's done. But then there's always a need for business to keep a relationship with its clients. It comes off sometimes as PR, but then it can even extend to even passenger relationship, especially now in remote working areas. Yeah. To some, we offer them after-sale services for free. We help them do some maintenance according to what they want done. But again, you know, starting, we were the technicians and the entrepreneurs. We did a lot of the communication and all that. It was one hell of a job. Sometimes you're frustrated, then a customer is calling. Also frustrated. It's hard to maintain a good rapport in such an environment. We decided to have someone basically in charge of communication and relations with our clients to avoid that issue of technicians interacting directly with their customers. Nice, excellent. Back to you. What are some, maybe some of the trends in this tech space that you'd point out and now that we have chat GPT and many others. In fact, some of the things that are happening to chat GPT is the loudest here. Are there some that you've noticed in the coding space or also in the AI space? There are so many. Actually, chat GPT, it was even there from, I think, 2018, 2017. But it was there as open AI. The same thing that the chat GPT is doing now. It was there. What open AI was doing. What do you think made it prominent? I think because it's now more responsive and then it works like a chat. It's like you are communicating, hey, open AI, can you help me with that list of this? Then it populates. So that's what made it so popular. Then there are so many. Now these people are even, you see maybe you want to communicate with somebody the way that you can integrate the GPT into your system so that if somebody wants to order maybe something, it's able to give real-time information on what is available at what price. And at what time maybe it's their delivery and everything. So now we are moving into chat boards. We want to reduce the number of customer care relations. So you have to train, like we are starting a program where if your market, maybe you train our board, you train the board so that you can be able to chat with the customers around what is on the website. Let's say these are e-commerce websites. Let's say use for an example, Tumia. So somebody can chat with this chat board and it's able to get him whatever he wants without having to search. So that's what we are working on right now. So that in fact, we want to reduce the time somebody is going to spend on the website. See, people are very busy. Or even on social media, have you seen this example where I once did a voiceover for BlueBand and so we went on the Instagram inbox and I said, hey, have you received the ad? And then those consistent information, hi, Brian, blah, blah, blah, but these are already keyed in commands. It's not like there's somebody operating it at the back end. Is that an example of it? Yeah, that's what we are working on right now. And then we want even to, in fact, to move it from the website to WhatsApp so that this dedicated chat board that it's able to access, you can query whatever you want from this chat board on WhatsApp, then it's able to look up into your website and give real-time information on what is on the website. But is it not a little bit boring for a person who has an intense need to get feedback from a real person, especially if you're aware, now that I know it's a chat board, I'll be like, let me not just text, let me find a number so that they get, don't you feel like it's bridging that gap between a human and just now a chat board, a tech? You see, sometimes, as you said, there are commands. It's like it's asking you, hey, Brian, you want these press two and three, but you want to make it so easier that, if you want to say, let's say I want a laptop, Core i5 and these, then it's able to populate you everything that is available. And then, as long as we're improving technology, there's need for humans. We can't do away with the humans. But you want to make sure that whatever the human is able to handle, like, these repetitive tasks, like you call, hey, do you have these? We want to reduce these repetitive tasks to surrender them to the AI so that humans can handle the most creative and innovative ideas that they can give out. All right. When it comes to organizations, for example, let me still use Y244 again. The data part really matters. So if you are, are you data savvy? Like, you're savvy with data handling as well, since it's part of IT. So if you were to maybe be employed here to do data preservation or to ensure that there's that docket of data protection, maybe what would you be offering for us? First of all, many companies prefer having their data kept maybe in Amazon somewhere there, but I prefer a company to store their own data so that you reduce that third party interactions. Accessibility. Then you also have to ensure that with accessing this data, let's say you have educated people. Like, the tech guys to handle the data and the most sensitive data to be handled with people who are responsible for that. And do not allow everyone to interact with their data. What about a server? Yeah, that's what I'm saying, like you have to have your data locally in your server because server is the home for our data. Okay. All right. We mentioned charity. How are you guys now branching into that and maybe what are the achievements that you've managed to fulfill for yourself before we exit in the next two minutes? Okay, so by charity, our way of charity is teaching other people how to code and preparing them for the entrepreneurial world. Mainly we are teaching the kids or guys from high school from the less fortunate communities. Why did you identify that as a target market? Basically it's not a market. It's a give back to the community. We feel like code is expensive to learn in Kenya. Most of the coding schools are expensive. But we have people out there who are willing and eager to learn code and are entrepreneurial. Once you can teach someone how to code or build something on his own and implement his ideas in accorded language, it's easy to build an entrepreneur who can help other people. So that's why in our system we get together kids from there, one or two, because we don't have a large capacity at the moment. How many people are you? Like in terms of size, how many people do you work with at Aban ISP? We're close to 30. Close to 30, that's a full circle company if it's a startup. The developers are many. The developers are many. So how are you sourcing them? From campus, anyone who's applied? I'm a referral. Mostly it's referrals. Because we major mostly on people who are so passionate about what they're doing. We are just more for community. Oh, it's a community. Yeah, so when we get people from these other communities, maybe the less fortunate, we get to bring them into our system, teach them how to code, teach them the basics of entrepreneurship, then allow them to build something from their own creativity. Then we support it. Sometimes we get funding on the projects. You get funding. You give them funding or you... We get, oh, you get funds. So you have partners and volunteers and volunteers. Volunteers come through in some instances. But at the moment we're not far, but we're hoping soon enough we'll have a capacity to grow that far. Right. Thanks. There's an interesting example of data work. There's a word you guys use in that space, in many a scale, but I'll find it, I'll find it. So the example is Itemia, IEBC, lectures were being done last year. We saw Jose Camago was the demigod in that conversation. Oh, Jose Camago entered, Oh, it seems like, and there are whole resets being printed in lorries bringing resets. What was your diagnosis of that? Because they're saying this on the side, the person who had the right to access that server is Jose or Jose Camago from wherever he was. What happened here? And the story of intellectual properties and rights and your limits as, of course, I believe us for us as Kenyans, we were on the user interface or the backend. Well, we were the user interface or the backend. You were the user interface, right? Yeah. I love the fact that it's now IT, now you will see. Please go ahead, go ahead. You know, as Kenyans, you could log in into your portal or onto the IEBC portal, what you'll see are figures that are presented. Whoever presents is at the backend. You can't control what he presents. So anybody who had access to the backend had access to what you'd see as a Kenyan. So could there be a possibility that they also have power to manipulate and change things? Yes or no? They have the rights. They have the rights to manipulate because they are... Are you saying the users saw the guys on the backend? Yeah. The users saw the guys on the backend? No, the guys on the backend. Of course, who is it to look at consumers? So the guys on the backend, as long as you have, you see the way database, let's say, the way the database is organized, you can give some rights to the certain folder. So depending on who you are, you can gain access. Okay, like in 2017, there is a very sensitive case, like the guy of Musando. He said that nobody is going to access what I have. I have the information, the password is my fingerprint. Then after a few days, it's found somewhere with no finger. So whatever you have, like the backend and the rights that you are given, let's say user X, that's what you can do to the rates that you have been given. All right, let's pause it from there. I think we'll have a part two. We'll have a part two, because I actually understand the time is up, so you can share how can people get you and if anybody wants to enroll at your organization and maybe seek your services, where is the number, where is the website, social media, very fast. Eight of you can say and then we go. Hakim or Calvin, are you ready? Okay, just to sum it up, the internet is a place with limited opportunities. Start dream big, but start small. So you can find out as urban ASP, then you can call contact us directly at 0726376277. That's it. Yeah, you can as well call on 0712698122. Yeah, we're also focusing on a partnership with another company. It's more for Marja. So in the coming days, we're likely to rebrand once that Marja goes through, hopefully. So all the best, we can't add more because we are two minutes out of our time. Thank you so much. With Delhi, Sakim and Calvin Kanegi for your time. Thank you. We appreciate it. So Saiyan, thank you for watching. We see you next time right here on Hashtag. Why in the morning? Have a fantastic Tuesday.