 Hey there and welcome to the Fedora podcast. My name is Eric the IT guy Hendricks, and this is episode number 25 today We're going to be talking about the Fedora website overhaul projects project 3.0 in fact and to do so I brought in a couple of friends and Want to bring them on and introduce them to you and we'll get started today If my thing will click there we go All right. So welcome welcome. So why don't we go around the horn here and do some introductions? And then we'll talk about the Fedora project website Well, you want to go first? Sure. I'm Mo. I'm a UX designer at Red Hat I've been with Red Hat for a very long time and I've worked with the Fedora and the Fedora design team for a very long time and I Designed the new Fedora logo and that was sort of part of the impetus for this whole project getting kicked off So that's kind of my background And we're we're trying to set a precedent here. So what do you do for your day job? What do you do for Fedora and then what do you do for fun? So for my day job, I'm a UX designer at Red Hat currently doing a lot of work on Plotman desktop and For fun I like to learn languages. So I've been learning Irish Gaelic for the past few years And I am also I I restored my great-uncle's fiddle and I'm trying to learn Irish fiddle. So awesome We won't ask you to break it out and and play live on the air I'm in the office. Anyway, it's not here. So you're spared Ashlyn, how about you? Yeah, so I'm Ashlyn a developer UI researcher or UX researcher anyone say it and UI designer I do a little bit of all things front-end and a bit of back-end with a strong focus on Jamstack So that's kind of some stuff I do For work. I'm also now recently a scrum master at a teaching place or at a learning place I can really talk today Words are difficult. Oh my god. Yeah, anyway, so what I do for work I design websites I code websites and I run user tests and I teach and Then what I do for Fedora lately not very much Because I've been kind of switching up some of my my jobs after a couple contracts that I had with Red Hat ended up But when I am working with them, I'm mostly working on websites and stuff like that and then for fun I really like skateboarding and longboarding especially longboarding. That's become a big passion of mine recently and I I used to be a musician like because I still am but I the professional drummer for quite a few years And I still play a little bit and along with your Fiddle playing I can play mandolin sometimes. So you can play the Irish washer woman together Yeah, I like video games Yeah, I had to I Imagine our live audience is going to be light today just because properly everyone is out playing Diablo 4 I Will admit there's I have plans this evening. So but yeah big gamer big Not so much a musician, but I did the lighting design for a number of years before I had kids So that was that was a lot of fun But I'm feeling like the next flock we should like put together a fedora band and between All of us nerds and musicians and whatnot. We probably have quite quite the production we could put put together Well, the next block is in Cork, Ireland. So Hey, well, there you go. You're learning Irish music. So this is this is great Actually mode before we dive into our topic Do you want to talk a little bit about a little bit about flock before we get Get going Sure, so I think I might have the dates not exactly memorized. It's the first week of August in Cork, Ireland It's a free event multiple days The call for papers just recently opened. So if you go to flock to fedora.org I believe you can get all the information And I believe on the fedora community blog. It's a community blog dot fedora project org Either today or very soon Justin is going to post an update with a lot of information about the venue and things like that So it's definitely a good conference to go to it's been a long time since I've been able to go in person because of Babies, so I'm very excited about the possibility. I might go I might not go we'll find out Awesome. So, yeah, that that is the in-person Contributor conference and that's coming up here and just well kind of it feels like just a few weeks Funny enough, I just got back last week from Red Hat Summit and that already feels like it was an eternity ago So time is moving by very quickly And speaking of things that are have been have been flying by quickly It seems like just a few days ago or a few years ago I'm not sure which fedora linux 38 dropped and so it was the latest iteration of our beloved fedora linux and Along with that we had an additional surprise. I don't know that many people knew this was coming, but it's uh, I knew because I was I was planning this episode, but But along with fedora linux 38 we actually dropped a whole bunch of updates to our web properties and So I want to talk a little bit today about what was involved what all changed. What are we hoping to accomplish moving forward? So why don't in fact, I've I happen to have it here so Mo Ashlyn you you want to talk a little bit about what what changed and and what we're looking at Do you want to go Ashlyn or should I? Well, you can take it okay, so I Can say because I was partially responsible for it that the the old setup of the websites was a bit of a mess with the sub-domains And apparently that's not good for search engine optimization and other reasons And it was getting kind of confusing There was an effort. I will say there was intent there that was you know, I Don't know it was not dumb to try to Kind of have an area that was aimed at users on our web properties And then have an area that was aimed at contributors because we would get feedback that All of our web properties were very There were a little too technical or a little too contributor oriented and it made it more difficult for somebody who hey I'm just a user here to be able to approach fedora and starting to use it So that kind of was the birth of the fedora brochure website is what we called it and that was get fedora Org and it basically just had like these are the fedora editions the downloads for each You know some basic information about using fedora and not too much on the community side The community side was basically well It was meant to be a Online collaborative platform that tied in together all of the various pieces of the fedora infrastructure That makes fedora go like The the package build service and the update service and chat and all these different things That project for various reasons actually never happened like we had made progress towards it But then we ended up kind of giving up on it So in essence fedora project org was pointing at the fedora project wiki and to be a Contributor in the fedora community. You would have to be aware of like all of these different properties You would have to be aware of the various infrastructure apps and they all have subdomains like bodied up for our project at org and coji That's our project that org you'd have to be aware of the chat system You'd have to be aware of the mailing list like there were a lot of different Things that you would just have to know and they weren't tied together like there was no one place and the wiki was a wiki So not not really the best place to start out if you're a new contributor and excited and the other issue that we Had is that the brochure site didn't have a lot of on ramps Into the contributor side. So, you know, hey, you're trying out fedora. It's great and hey, oh, I'd like to get involved There was no door for you to go through to do that so what we were trying to do is sort of bring the two sides back together And try to do it in a way that is we didn't want to be pushy like oh my god You have to be a contributor but just more like hey if you wanted to contribute You know, here's an idea of how you could do that and to have them in one sort of global menu The contributor side and the user side so that you could sort of see all of the resources that were available Say for contributors rather than have to memorize URLs or google for them So that was one aim of the project is basically to reunify all of these Properties that we had popping up every day like weeds on the web I feel like you want to weigh in it as well Yeah, totally And this this was a really big part of the the navigation revamp And that was something that I focused on quite a bit when we were still doing a lot of the design work And just trying to figure out how to way to build a nav bar That would be like quick enough to move through and still have all the content that would Be able to help people be able to get around that was a really key objective there And then in the long run to be able to build a version of it that can be exported to sites that aren't Hosted on this in the same repo as the fedora websites are So we actually had a question here in chat that that it's a beautiful segue into Into what I want to ask next but let's let's bring up je's question here Is it developing room zero or has a does it have a cms beside it? I'm curious about what developing from zero means does that mean just like starting from scratch? So here's my thought back when I started in it websites were Were html that's that's all you had html css and so you got to write every single border every single line of text All from scratch and that would be absolutely miserable with as gorgeous and as complicated And I mean that in a positive way as websites are today Um So is is this something that the fedora community has built from the ground up? Or is there some open source projects that are are running underneath? Kind of a complicated answer so the fedora websites were built using nux js and that's nux three So they they had released the newer version of nux which is built on view three Shortly before we started laying down code the stable version of that came out So we jumped on that to be able to use something that would Still feel similar to html writing interview isn't too far away from what a beginner web developer might be learning But it allows for hybrid rendering and things like that. So unlike just having a single page application, which isn't great for SEO readings and it's not awesome for people that have low bandwidth and stuff like that We kind of found this as a medium room That would allow us to be able to build the more complicated stuff that we may want to build and needed to with the current mock-ups While as well keeping System resources down It was built from the ground up, but it was also built with a cms. We ended up using It was previously called netlify cms and they had changed the branding on that shortly around when we deployed it I'm spacing on the name that they had switched us. We'll have to look that up But um, yeah, so what we we did is we didn't want to use a cms like wordpress. We could have used that headless uh, but then there we felt that there was going to be a lot of uh confusion between using wordpress just as a content editor and not having it in control of visual layout So instead we used this get based one which we also really liked because it kept the workflow Really close to what the developers and everyone on the team were already used to uh, so we didn't we didn't want to add any new Steps we wanted to reduce the amount of steps, but we still wanted to make it so people who had very low tech knowledge Would be able to edit things like the pictures and the text strings and stuff like that so what this cms is is a really simple web-based interface where you can Edit strings we've set up all of the yaml fields and whatnot that feed into the website So yeah, someone can change up the information there and that'll edit all the yaml files Which stores the page content which could also be edited manually. So we also tried to avoid Encuring too much tech tech debt. So if the cms system itself goes That's fine. We have all the yaml files with all the key value pairs of the information in it And that's kind of why we put together this sort of variation of a jam stack architecture for the websites And it's really nice how when you make a change to the text in the cms And you have no idea really this is going on under the under the covers But you're going into the ui you're updating text or updating image in the background It's filing a pull request on our git lab And so everything is trackable and like you said ashlyn if the cms goes away Everything can just be done with git Yep That's awesome. And you you weren't kidding the very complicated answer But I mean this this pulled in a lot of the about pages A lot of the download pages. I mean there there wasn't much that this this particular property update didn't touch So I imagine a process this complicated Took quite a bit of time All in all, how long would you say it took to get to uh to fedora website 3.0 It's that like a year and a half years And that's that's for implementation. I think the the design was a twinkle in my eye over two years ago Right And who who all was on involved obviously you had graphic designers You had to have infrastructure teams that are managing all of this who all had their hands in uh and I'm managing the upgrade You want to start with maybe the the pre coding phases and then I'll jump into the the coding and on phases Yeah, okay. It's fair enough. So I guess the things kicked off when we had the new fedora logo And um, I kind of I think things started off with a discussion with matthew miller. Who's the fedora project leader? Um and sort of like We were changing up how we wanted to position fedora Um, you might see a slogan on like the bottom of the pages or in some areas fedora It's your os and you see on the front splash. It'll say like it's your It's like has an animated thing and the idea about it is why would you use fedora? Because you can contribute back and you can have some ownership of it. It's you know an open open source project So we wanted to sort of change the branding to reflect that and we wanted to change the branding and the look to reflect the new logo It's a one color logo Unlike our other logo slightly brighter colors So we were kind of going for that kind of bright and clean and minimal kind of branding look Um, so I just started doing mock-ups. I started with the workstation mock-up, which I could show If you wanted to share that Yeah, so that's this one was the first one Oh, I said I clicked something wrong. Sorry Think you click it and it decided to refresh Yeah, it's like it's rude um Yeah, if you're watching a lot, feel free to to put some questions into chat or We'll we'll talk a little bit about how you can get involved here If you're watching this after the fact, please put your questions into comp into the comments below. We'll uh We'll we'll make sure that we check those and and share uh share some answers to your questions So I don't think it likes me, but it's this one right here. This is our this is our pen pot site We used pen pot to manage a lot of the the ux design assets for this project. Um, pen pot is a open source um online UI design tool, which is it's just incredible and it it came out around the timeline We were starting this process So we kind of started at ground zero with pen pot and as it's been updating and getting new features We've been using them but it's been a great way to manage a collaborative open source design project because You know, I could invite people into this space and they could see the designs that were pre-existing and import components From designs that had already been made to use them for their own designs So we were able to sort of divvy up the website that way and do the design work that way. So like you'll see here I started with the workstation design and then um Emma kidney who's a member of my team She picked up the core os and she picked up a lot of these actually the iot and um server So, um, you know, there was a lot of Collaboration on the actual visuals, but I would say that in the early pre implementation stages We really kind of started with the workstation as sort of because that's I would say I think fairly that's probably our most um popular Edition of fedora. So we started with that and once implementation got started on that we started Working with other groups within fedora to get information on their particular editions to design their their mock-ups So then ashlyn, do you want to cover sort of what that handoff to development look like? For sure And that that was a really exciting time for the website synapse team because we were pretty new as far as fedora teams go And we were kind of getting our bearings and understanding what our objectives were and whatnot But the fedora web and apps team uh jumped on top of this and we had contributors From all over a lot of people were really new We had some people that had some experience with design and we're just starting out with web development few folks who had come from Just different areas of development and hadn't done too much web stuff in a while And it was really cool because we were able to get some of the designers to be able to Put there some of their first commits of code into the website as well as system administrators who hadn't done Website stuff since uh, I think the one guy was saying html3 or html2 I can relate so it was really really exciting the team Kind of grew quite a bit during this process and we had react developers We had yeah just people all over the place that were getting in and learning about the framework that we were using and developing it so the the websites and apps team Was the main contributor But this is also Like there was a stronger connection built between the design team And then the web and apps team who were I feel like a little bit more separated And then we started being at each other's meetings and engaging with each other's work. So This effort really brought you guys are those two teams in particular and also Connected us with other like the additions groups that you were talking about that uh We were getting feedback from on what their new pages were going to look like so Yeah, there's the the the main core teams that worked on it our community based user testers that we invited for some sessions when we were testing and building out the the new cms as well as User testers from we were testing the navigation. So yeah, we had testers We had coders and then we we had designers and then we had the Community members that were representing the various sites that we made Huge huge under taking very very involved and over over a year and a half to two years and and uh, I mean is the the The website looks amazing It's it's clean. It's sleek It's easier to navigate Of course being the guy who used to use google search as his bookmark manager I I've kind of been retraining myself to use the menu system because it is so much easier than Jumping back out to a search engine to now. How do I get to that page again? Okay. Well the search engine knows But I mean the menus it it all flows really really well Uh ashland, I there's a question here. It's probably for you Uh, were there any challenges that came up because you're trying to stick to free and open source software or are there proprietary bits in the new site? From what I know, there's nothing proprietary um, there might be some like proprietary or not fully open source We didn't even really use a lot of libraries. We've tried to keep it pretty limited So as far as I know and at the time that I left, no, we kept it as close to a fos principle project And on the design side too the tooling that we use is 100 open source as the fedora design team always does and it's never been an issue It's actually a massive asset because you know We'll have volunteers from the community coming to try to learn design by joining our team or they just want to help out And you know, maybe they don't have money for a creative cloud license They don't need it because we're using free and open source tools. So it actually makes it more It makes it so that people can more easily join the team and participate using the same tools Yeah, there's nothing like being able to uh to download an entire suite of tools and and just know that it's open source And and get started especially uh like moe when when we're getting ready to launch the video aspect of this podcast you you sent me like screenshots and a couple of videos that you recorded that kind of walked me through the steps to build the banners for the fedora podcast page and And it's it's like there's no way that I would go out and spend hundreds of dollars or 15 dollars a month Or whatever it is nowadays to to make the one or To make the two or three banners a month that I would need to make But it's it's so nice to be able to use the same tool sets and to not have to go out and spend that money Just to get that functionality So of course like like all all things fedora. It's it's it's fos first and uh, and hopefully all others never Yeah, and I just just to jump in there I just quickly double-checked and yeah next j s is mit and it's d-cap cms That's what netlify's cms became and that's also mit license Which is pretty common for for web development licensing But yeah, all of our tools that we were using were open Yeah, be sure to throw your questions in chat. Um, definitely keeps the conversation going and and keeps keeps our guests on their toes so what So I I have one answer to this to this next question, but uh, you know, what's coming up What's what's new and while you while you formulate your answers I know one thing that I'm excited about is there's a ticket on On the fedora git lab About getting the fedora podcast moved over to the new sites uh, we we had a wordpress site that fell out of maintenance and So instead of trying to either fix it or replace it We're actually going to just move all the fedora content For fedora podcast content over to the fedora project website So that'll be integrated soon. We've got a ticket open on that and So I'm excited to see what podcast at fedora project dot org will have here in the near future Um, and then we had another question come in and then we'll then we'll jump back to to what's coming up um, so what percentage of contributors were employees Uh in part to work on the new site versus were volunteer contributors Maybe 50 50 I don't know Yeah, there was a few like there was a few red hatters in there I was on contract and doing an internship with red hat at the beginning of when we started actually laying down code so various stages I was getting paid um But the majority of the web and apps team that was writing the code I believe were volunteers We had yeah, there was there's you're right like 50 50 to 60 40 paid to unpaid contributions Is what I'm gonna guesstimate that Hey sounds good I hear that 67 of all statistics are made up anyway, so there you go. I can go So mo what's what's coming up for the uh for the website team? So one of the efforts that I know is going on but I'm not involved with but emma is is um expanding the the content to include spins And so um emma has developed a template for spins and I know I saw some works in progress There was discussions about um silver blue getting a website, you know under the same You know everything in the nav and using the same templates and everything Um, I think there were some discussions about keenoite, but I'm I'm not following them super closely But the idea is that any spin that wants could pick up this template And use it and fill in their own content or work with the website naps team to have it Set up for them and then they could start using the cms to keep it updated and everything So that's that's definitely like the next stage is getting the spins all listed in in the new format Yeah, I think from what I understand too. I'm only going to be just getting back into a connection with the team in the next week or so here um, but what I'm really excited to do is work on taking that nav and building a version of it that can be used on all the apps that that it is currently linking to but Right now it doesn't have anything. That's not it doesn't have access to That navigation flow. So my goal is to build a low maintenance version of it that can be exported and added to the other apps and sites Without costing anybody more headaches than Is that possible? well, maybe it's my my my personal mission is to make this and make it like Work well for others and not like me and that individual teams have to work on me maintaining it I really want to make a version where we maintain it in one place And then everyone just has access to it. So that's like what I really want to undertake It's also just seems like a really exciting challenge to me That's awesome. Um, I mean the website looks gorgeous the the uh some of the future plans look amazing Selfishly, I cannot wait to see what the podcast site looks like. I saw some some rough mock up mock-ups the other day So that was that was really great to see Um, but any any other thoughts about the the web properties that we want to we want to discuss I mean, we're always open for new contributors if you um pop into actually pre-show We had a question about getting uh getting involved mo you want to talk about what, uh Yeah, sure. So we have um process looks like Yeah, there's the websites and apps channel on our matrix server, which is um chat dot fedora project.org You don't need to have an account on the fedora matrix server because it's matrix You could just use matrix.org or whatever you have but yeah, so the websites and apps Chat is probably the best place to get started. Um, you'll see people talking through You know discussions and what what they're working on. Um, if you want to work on the design You might also want to join the fedora design team channel We usually if we're talking about fedora website design we'll do it in the website channel But sometimes we'll come back to the fedora design channel too If you're in the fedora design channel, um, and if you'd like an invite to our pen pot So you can access like our our design assets for the website, you know, we're happy to do that Um, turn anything is there anything else? I'm I'm forgetting nashlin for somebody who's looking to get on boarded Yeah, I think just showing up at a a meeting or jumping into the chat either or those are really good ways to to do it So they're really really friendly teams and especially with the amount of growth that they both saw over the past couple years I think everyone's pretty good for like chatting with new people and that kind of engagement So here's a here's a good question. We didn't uh, we didn't put into the into the show notes But what was your favorite thing to see get left behind from the old site? Uh, n.a. says mine was finally seeing silver blue integrated A lack of dark mode. We left behind no dark mode That's a good one I guess I would just say the the sub domain craziness Very happy to leave some of that behind and continue to get rid of all the crazy sub domains that we had Um, and one thing I will say that I am sad that we left behind although we left it behind a couple iterations ago We used to have a really fun 500 error and 404 error that involved the beefy miracle shooting a panda And it's just I'm sorry. It's just ridiculous. It was it was like a little animation. I I don't We had like a geiger counter And the geiger counter had the error code. So it's like 404 It would say 500 or whatever and the hot dog had like an old timey 1950s sci-fi ray gun and he was shooting the panda and the panda was like glowing It was just the most ridiculous thing But it was so funny because you wouldn't expect it and then when you got the error, you're like So I feel like about the error Yeah, like I'm just astounded. Wow. Um, I think we need More 404 and 500 fun errors, you know, we need to bring that back Let's definitely get some comedy and to that side of things And recently actually because this is something I've been doing on podman desktop. Um, I came up with an animation SVG based animation using this tool It's an open source tool called clax animate and I might be pronouncing it terrible. Sorry, but it is a very nice tool You can use it to produce latte files to if you're familiar with that format But we used it to produce like this animation of a little seal writing a rocket that is like a little loader screen animation And so I feel like this is a good tool that we could use to make really cool looking and very they're they're very, um They're well compressed like they look great and the file size is really small So we could use something like that to do a really fun 404 error Well, that's fabulous. I I haven't used it You've said that So so what I'm hearing is if you're new to design that that's where you can jump in the the easiest is go in and And start making error code images that make people laugh and forget that they got an error code Yes, I will say the the important thing in design too, which is like the part of design That's not like you can't see it. So maybe you don't know as much about it It's just coming up with the concepts, you know, like how do these things fit together? How does the flow go from here to there? Like yeah, you're not going to have an asset or like a mock-up showing that but having the concept of how that works Is really important So if somebody can come up with like a really hilarious concept for like, you know The error message pages, please talk to us and if you need any help working on the animations or whatever, please contact us That would be such a fun project Yeah, definitely. You don't need to know how to design to come up with a cool idea like that Well, there you go. We just uh, we just created a new initiative right here on the podcast. I love it That's that's what we're here for Yeah, there's there's another thing I wanted to bring up and moe I chatted with about this with you like really briefly A few weeks ago But something I've been getting really interested in is user testing I actually have the school that I'm at right now I'm teaching a session on conducting user tests on this upcoming friday, which is Mostly based on the user tests that we did at flock 2022 Uh for the navigation in that its first iteration And then the user tests that we had done on the cms that we were building Around september october. I think we were doing that testing And so I've been doing a lot of reflecting on the work that we we did at that time As well as reading the book rocket surgery made easy by steve krug Which is a fabulous book if you're interested in ux design and ux research And uh, yeah something that I I wanted to do for myself And I've said this would be a really cool thing for fedora And for people that want to do ux design is to have like small ux just testing sessions So maybe once every couple weeks we can get together and if someone's got something that they want to test Whether it's something you built or it's just something that's inspiring you We could organize little test sessions and just run them fairly casually with a couple observers and stuff I think developing a culture Of user testing and not having it be this big leviathan of a task that you do close to the end of the project Where you get to learn that there's a whole bunch of core functionalities and features that you made months ago that are going to like Totally ruin things for users It's better to not have a big test at the end and to do smaller tests throughout But learning how to do that is kind of a challenge and I think that That's something that we could definitely grow in open source and it's something that's great because it doesn't require A high technological skill To be able to conduct these tests So that's something that i'm going to start trying to bring to fedora in the very new future here because I think it's Super cool and super useful to be able to engage that in the workflow Someone let ashlyn know that her scrum master is showing Right no, that's that would be awesome to have a have regular user testing I know folks that just cannot wait for each releases Hackdays or test days And and to do something like that with with the ui would be would be really great. I mean, I was I was working with the redhead enterprise linux image builder team right before summit And the ui designers had an idea of how someone might use the tool and it was kind of funny because The project manager and I that were preparing this this talk for summit Came across a couple of usability issues where it's like Yeah, I can see where you're going with that But kind of in the in the workflow that assist admin would use maybe we try these things and so We actually submitted like half a dozen bugs and feature requests before summit So I'm sure that uh, that the image builder team loved the fact that it's like Hey, we're giving a presentation to talk about your thing, but can you can you fix these things? Yeah For sure Yeah, it's fun when that stuff just sort of surprise comes and you're like, oh yay It's it's kind of bittersweet there because it's like oh, yes, this all makes the tool better, but oh, I was not expecting this pile of work Yeah, it's where it's better to get it in sooner Oh for sure for sure better than uh, then after a huge project has gone through uh months of development and planning and testing only to go Oh, wait the premise that we started working off of Not not gonna work Yeah, well and with the website nav that was something that we hit and I'm so grateful that we did that testing in uh at flock because we initially had this concept of a nav bar system that was um I took some inspiration from the context why I just described it as a context based navigation system That I saw being used um by microsoft Uh, so depending on which area whether you're dealing with stuff like their video game stuff with xbox or Office 365 that these different contexts and the main nav changes and you have access to a hero nav that gets you back to a global level And so because at the time we were really realizing about how Many apps and sites and how disparaged fedora's ecosystem was across the web um, we had thought that that kind of a system might be good for keeping a The user sort of focused on where they need to be, you know, we were taking some inspiration from gnome with that Uh without over and not overcrowding them giving them the information that's necessary, but still giving them a way out So we put a lot of our early development and design time Into figuring out what that was going to function like and when we tested it The uh aspects related to those contexts Ended up causing more questions than anything else did and so we had to scrap that entire system which was good because like Yeah, the the system that we ended up going with which takes a lot of emulation from I think the ibm's nav was one of the main points of inspiration there um It was once we came up with that system though the organizing the labels and how the different sites and pages were going to be grouped Which uh, if you look at the nav bar, you'll see like contributor Um community and some of those major headings those came out of that context-based approach But by layering them and hiding them Some of the power that from the system kind of fell apart and that we were able to evolve it into this newer system And i'm i'm really grateful that we did that testing because in that first phase We were able to figure out some terms that worked But in the second phase we were figure out we were able to figure out how to actually use them So people wouldn't hate navigating our site Hmm love it Well, I think we've exhausted uh the questions in uh Uh in our chats But any mo any closing thoughts and then ashlyn you as well well Let me think I mean I just I think it was an amazing open source team effort. I mean we had bread headers we had Community members we had volunteers we had folks who were seasoned experienced developers. We had people who are completely new and learning um, it was a really good mix of folks working on this and You know seeing it launch and life was just a huge thrill for me personally so um Energy that everybody brings to it and I also love just the commitment to being open Doing things upstream to doing things the open source way Hmm love it ashlyn. How about you For sure. Yeah, I remember earlier on in the process with some of our posts when we were When we were debating which framework and which tools we were going to use to do the site in And there was a lot of flack and a lot of like negativity that we were seeing coming through and which was good like we we took that feedback and we like worked with it a bit and I think we led to a really good place but watching the shift even on reddit go from like some of the I think was kind of unnecessary but the slagging to being like the really excited positive. Okay. The change is good We're liking this and seeing that that evolution of the feedback Once we like we're able to start building giving this vision seen through That was a really exciting thing for me too like the launch as well But just watching in real time like People's opinions of what we're doing going from oh no not another javascript framework something To being like what was that? I saw a comment from I think the manjaro team or someone related to manjaro's I think it was them saying that we're like now the website to beat It's gotta make you feel good And like the day fedora the linux 38 dropped along with the new web properties. I saw a comment I don't remember if it was in chat or out on the fedora discussions page or what it was but someone said Wait, did the did the website change? I went to go download the iso and it looks completely different. This looks awesome Right So if A set of Came up with we call it the fundamental theorem of loss and um, it's a little bit uh, sorry Maybe it's kind of funny too. Is that some of the pushback that we got fits into a lot of these categories But it's one of those things that if you stick it through you fall through with You know sometimes you get a positive result When ashlyn was explaining how that was going. I was just thinking yeah the fundamental theorem at work Totally Well, and if if it's not snarky, does it really have anywhere in in technology? Yeah All right, so definitely Yeah, you know heard heard a little bit of audio scrambling, but it seems to be better now but Definitely check out the new website if you haven't yet do some do some navigation feel free to jump on to The matrix channel or to the matrix I guess it's a server Everybody calls their thing something different but help under the matrix server join Some of the channels get involved in the conversation If you have ideas or if you have some some concepts, definitely jump into the design channels We'll have links to a lot of this in the show notes, but other than that Really appreciate you both jumping in and and letting me Uh pick your brains for for about an hour or so But this this was a great conversation really looking forward to To the next one which speaking of will be live again in two weeks same place same time Don't ask me what the topic is because we had a topic lined up And then we pushed that one off a little bit to to line up with some product announcements from one of our partners but Such as the life of of live streams, but we'll have a really awesome topic here in two weeks If not, i'll drag mo on here to to play the fiddle for us. So Let's hopefully find uh, let's hopefully find a topic there But thank you for joining us. This was episode 25 of the fedora prod uh fedora podcast Make sure to check out the show notes for links and additional resources pertaining to this episode And on behalf of mo ashlyn My guest today and myself erie the it guy hindricks. Thank you all for joining us and and of course on behalf of the entire Of fedora project community. We will see you next time