 Good day my lovely listeners. You are listening to The Forty Autie Podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive headfirst into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalizing tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello everybody and welcome back to The Forty Autie Podcast. It's very sunny and I'm very happy that it's sunny because when it's all gloomy and dark it's it's very depressing and with all the isolation stuff that's going on as I'm as we're recording this it can be a little bit sort of dark and gloomy anyway but it's nice to have a little bit of sunshine and today we're going to be talking about autism and gender stereotypes which is something that I've been wanting to talk about for a while now and basically I got in contact with the National Autistic Society following the release of my documentary and we sort of did a little bit of a video interview, a little bit of a blog post about the documentary and sort of my time filming it and during isolation and I was introduced to the very lovely Hermione Cameron from the National Autistic Society. How are you doing Hermione? I'm alright, I'm pretty good. I've been recently sorting out my new room that I'm moving into so I spent yesterday just scraping glue off the the floors of... because there used to be a carpet and stuff and we never really got... it's now a wooden floor and we had sort of like... I was basically on my hands and knees scraping it off with a butter knife for a long time last night so my hands are very sore and my girlfriend's hands are a little bit stingy from all the chemicals that we're using. We'll probably use some gloves or something. That sounds productive anyhow. Yeah it is. I'm just happy that we're getting to it now. So yeah yeah we we met on that sort of video interview that we did and we had a little bit of a blog post that we did. Yeah stories from the spectrum. Yeah I guess I just just sort of wanted to... because obviously I don't really have much of an opportunity to talk to people from the National Autistic Society and considering it's I think quite widely regarded as a good sort of nice and safe space for autistic people it's nice to be able to chat from somebody who is quite quite a key worker in terms of the social media side. What is your job title? Are you like the the content producer? My job title is content officer brackets copy. So I kind of... I guess it's mostly editing really a lot of editing and copywriting and assisting the senior editor with things like so I've yeah I've kind of taken on the stories from the spectrum role which is what we interviewed you for which is our kind of series of interviews and blogs like that sort of where we chat to autistic people and kind of get a sense of their day-to-day lives and like maybe we'll talk about something they've done like a cool project like with your documentary or and yeah just kind of get trying to get an in-depth perspective from autistic people and their families and I also so I don't know if you've read the spectrum magazine. I have seen it yeah. It was called Asperg United and it's edited by yeah a guy on the content team called The Goth who's very nice man who's on the spectrum himself and he's been editing it for quite a while now and our team were kind of about a year ago or so we kind of sort of took on uploading it online and kind of so I kind of handle the sort of online version of it and I sometimes I try and do fun things like I recently put together an archive of articles and artwork and poems from previous editions which like relating to the theme of home and I try and do it like we had one before on them aliens which is quite fun animals and aliens yeah there is some yeah well someone wrote an article about this theory that people on the autistic spectrum might have like alien DNA which is actually very interesting in depth was quite in depth and I think we just thought oh that's a very interesting theme and it's often obviously it's not a metaphor that a lot of autistic people will like or relate to but it's often a lot of people talk about this feeling that they're sort of from like they're on the wrong planet kind of thing kind of theme so we sort of went for that and kind of collected a lot of a lot of people like talks about doctor who and how they relate a lot to the doctor yeah so yeah doing I mean doing things like that I guess that's that's kind of the part of my job that I like the most and because I mean I'm a writer myself so I mainly do poetry so yeah I just enjoy reading other people's work and wow how do you yeah I also work on like kind of sorry carry on how did you get how did you get involved with the National Artistic Society like what was the process like of getting on the team I actually started there as a volunteer and at the time I was doing a bit of sort of freelance work outside of for a different place and what I'd always kind of wanted to work for a cause that you know I really cared about or I always wanted to work for a charity so I was volunteering there for a while and then yeah eventually they took me on because I just kind of kept coming back so they couldn't really get rid of me so it's kind of volunteering on and off and then started temporarily and then eventually moved to a permanent position wow I definitely um I definitely empathize with the the whole working for for a cause that you um feel quite deeply because I think one of one of the issues with most people in their jobs is that I think most most people try and focus too much about like the money aspects or the like the reputation aspects and I was a little bit on that kind of side when I went to uni because I did a course in in biomedical sciences which is it's basically the main prerequisite for sort of clinical research and you know of diseases and and different sort of neuroscience related things and I I very much sort of idolized that since I was um before I started A Levels and it's now that I'm older I sort of realized that although it would be nice to do research and and sort of add to the sort of archive of scientific discoveries it's it's nice just to focus on something that's quite like close to your heart it gives you a lot of like motivation to get up and and continue working would you say that that's something that that you you relate to quite a lot yeah definitely I mean I'm I'm extremely lucky really that I'm able to do that because I have done you know kind of previous work which isn't something that you know you might enjoy it but I I think I'm very lucky to do something that I feel is so personal to me like to get yeah and to get paid for that is yeah I'm fortunate that it's not just a job like it really sort of means the world to me really because this wasn't you know it wasn't being on the autistic spectrum wasn't really even something that I like my close friends and family knew obviously but wasn't something that I spoke about openly until I started volunteering initially and then work in national autistic society and kind of thought well now that I work there I sort of got to talk about it I can't really know um so yeah it's really sort of changed things for me what were you doing before before you saw when you were doing like all that volunteering and stuff I did like I did various things um Ashie it's quite funny whilst I was doing the volunteering I was uh got through a friend he used to work for the um dating site buddy and bumble and I was doing some online moderation for them which was interesting um but it was very yeah it was very like random really but that sounds like a cool job anyway like it's not something that most people are involved with yeah again it wasn't something that I thought that I really would get into but you know I was lucky I guess I had a friend who worked for them so he could kind of help me get involved that and I also well because my degree was um English with creative writing so I kind of worked in bookshops and stuff just like as a tent jealous that sort of thing yeah it's good again I I was sort of lucky to be able to do that um but yeah I think at the same time having a sort of creative arts degree or like a sort of humanities degree is not as useful as doing something maybe more practical but again I was very lucky that I was able to study what I what I love really yeah and I suppose having that um well I think I think the difference between sort of like you know humanities and sort of like science based or like practical degrees is that it's it's very sort of limited in it leads to a job like the um sort of practical side of things but it doesn't give you much of a a new angle on things whereas I think like degrees like humanity in the sort of humanities and things such as your degree give you a little bit of a would you say like a like a personal sort of more um well-rounded view on things maybe a little bit of a different angle I think so yeah it sort of gives you time to kind of think and reflect and yeah I consider things from a different perspective like my my undergraduate degree in particular that was um which was at Falmouth University which I loved um yeah I sort of liked it because we didn't kind of study just like canon you know that sort of I guess typically as people would say sort of dead white males kind of literature we sort of looked at a variety of writers from like around the world and you just see things from a perspective that you would never have considered before well that I for me that you know I wouldn't have considered before because I wouldn't have been exposed to it yeah and um with your with your poetry like have you is that I think I think I do remember you saying something about like competitions that you've entered and all that um my I had a collection published actually um by was actually um yeah a small company called Ampersand Publishing and my house I was very lucky because my housemate decided to set up his own publishing company and he managed to do it which was like a massive achievement and he published my collection which is called recipe for being a woman as well as a short sci-fi sort of short fiction which is called um welcome to earth unfortunately they closed they had to close down but yeah it's still like a really something that I really enjoyed and I was very proud of and yeah one of my poems in there um which is called not always grey was shortlisted for the britport prize which yeah I was very proud of I think that's probably sort of my kind of proudest one of the proudest moments of my life I guess wow I'm just I just had a little google search of your um recipe for being a woman that I like it looks really cool like is it is it oh thank you I've um I'm looking at this this website called foul writing is that oh right yeah there's a review on I think that's um somebody from foulmuss university did a review of the book um and yeah I was illustrated by um Louise Bar-Michelou who um was a children's illustrator and she did these like really beautiful black and white like quite simple black and white illustrations which worked really well so I was yeah I was very lucky with that um I know it was like it was really very exciting time I think and that and that came out definitely like and it was being a published author and stuff that's that's like one of the things that I I definitely want to do in my life yeah yeah there is a little sort of quote that that's in there it says um I'm assuming this is from you like many of the poems in the collection it illustrates the commonness of mental illness and how debilitating it can be is mental illness quite a big um player in the book like do you talk about it a lot within the poems I think there are a few like there are a few poems in there I think that I actually was a bit hesitant when I was kind of going through it with a publisher and I was like oh I don't know if you know I should include that like is that a bit dark or is that um but he was very you know insistent that I did include them and I was very glad that I did um but yeah it does sort of talks about um yeah grief mental illness kind of self-image um some elements of sort of self-harm and that like there's one particular poem in there which is called um the other side which is kind of about I get yeah I guess sort of suicidal ideation yeah having a moment when you yeah I'm very much I'm very much like like artistic sort of um things to do with you would you say that poetry's I would say that poetry's like word art like it's definitely it's definitely a form of art in my mind sort of try to play with that there's one poem that I did um which you'll see us in like the shape of a fingerprint what I did and it is called yeah it's supposed to be it's called IED it's supposed to be yeah kind of around yeah I suppose the literal theme of identity but yeah I think you know I agree with you that because you have to be so every word matters so much that it is sort of like painting with fine brushes yeah I think I definitely think that any sort of like creative writing is um a form of art because I I'm very much of the the view that art is sort of a a more efficient way of translating emotions to other people right and I feel like um writing and and poetry and creative writing is a very good sort of avenue for blending blending the two together so blending the emotion and the and the sort of um experiences and the communication together so I find that like creative writing and poetry is is something that I'm particularly interested in like it's it's very cool I will definitely have to have the read of this yeah no I mean I'm happy to give you a copy ooh could you sign it for me as well I can yeah yeah awesome yeah I know I know we haven't um I haven't sort of highlighted it in in the questions that I've put together but is mental illness something that's that's quite a big part of your life like you don't have to answer if you if you don't feel comfortable I definitely have always struggled with anxiety and depression and um you know particularly as as a teenager um I think it's had a really difficult year when it's 12 13 which I guess is like sort of peak puberty time which might be where I just sort of felt I don't know just like this sort of darkness and I didn't know what depression was at the time and I probably like behave yeah I think I just behaved really horribly because I didn't know like what was going on and I just kind of well I just in the sense I just sort of isolated myself I think yeah and it's it's very difficult like I feel like uh being being on the spectrum and having mental health difficulties can be like a because even like the combination between like there are these like uh what they describe in psychology vicious cycles so anxiety has its own vicious cycle and depression has its own vicious cycle basically like cycles that you go through that keep you in the in the sort of mental headspace of whatever condition that is and I feel like that the combination of those two and autism just makes life just a mess especially like in teenager I've definitely found that yeah because I guess as well when you're on the spectrum it's kind of like I mean they use the word anxiety a lot but I wasn't entirely sure what that meant um but it's kind of like oh it's because you have an autism diagnosis that you're experiencing this and it's almost like mental health issues can get missed because of that like people don't kind of realize that you can have been more than one thing at once yeah and I think that there is sort of a so with with the documentary that I that I produced it was it was basically trying to highlight sort of like the the mental the mental health issues in the autistic community and I feel like one of the reasons why these like statistics aren't really talked about is is that that most people would sort of assume that because you're autistic your life isn't as good if that makes sense yeah which I don't think is I don't think it's a good representation of what most autistic people feel or think from my experience like I know I know autistic people who don't have any mental health conditions and they're they're really happy just to live in their own life and you know going about whatever they want to do and it only seems really to be a problem when there are those aspects of mental health included and I do I do I am of the the view that as much that talking about it as much as possible is is the the best way to get it get it seen by like the mainstream media and stuff like that because that's really what we need in order to have like a change and stuff yeah definitely I like that you've you've included those those aspects in your in your book I think that's a a great thing and even even with things like you know like self harm and stuff like I when I was sort of in it in my teenage hood there's kind of like yourself which is why I laughed I I developed some quite severe mental health difficulties you know like with the typical depression anxiety couple of dissociative conditions and I I was I I self harm self harm for about three or four years and so it's it's something that I don't think it's something that that people would think of me looking at me now but like it is it's it is something that you know happens and it happens more and like seems to happen more in the the autistic community I think when I um yeah when I went through this like very sort of dark periods it yeah like I said I just didn't really because I mean people are talking about it more now but I think at the time it was something that people were aware of but it wasn't something that sort of talked about in the mainstream and so I just didn't really know what it was I kind of felt like I mean quite fittingly I'm like very very big like Harry Potter nerd I guess and I kind of I kind of felt like you know the way that she describes Jacob Rowling describes dementors how the sort of sucking trait you feel is so all that you're happy you'll never be happy again and all the your positive thoughts are drained from you and am I right in thinking that the the dementors are were supposed to be like a a metaphor for depression so I think I've read that before yeah absolutely because I think at the time she was very depressed and was on like was completely broke and like as a single mother and yeah and I I just thought yeah that that was very sort of accurate representation of how it felt and that's I didn't really describe it any I mean I remember saying to my mum that I felt as though I sort of fall spiraling into a black hole yeah that was just yeah just very very strange but I think now that I know what it is it's easier to deal with when it those feelings arise which they do from time to time I think one of the difficulties I've been on the spectrum is yes something that's quite common is that um alexifamia which is like the um it's it's sort of like the medical sort of scientific term for not being able to notice and understand your own emotions yeah I've heard of that yeah yeah well I felt I feel like that that that's one of the things that adds a whole new dimension to the struggles in teenagehood and espouses struggles with like mental health and stuff it's it's quite hard to deal with something when you're not sure when you're dealing with it and what causes it and all of that it's very much like a investigative process to try and get over these conditions I think especially autistic is that a sort of like that kind of hollowness that you sort of feel yeah it's it's I think I think one of the misconceptions is that like depression feels the same as being sad because I don't I don't think it is the same as being sad it's it's very it's very novel it's very separate from sadness like typical sort of sadness you know you'll feel that welling up behind your heads you'll feel the need to sort of connect to other people whereas depression is sort of that dull hollow meaningless feeling in the back of you back of your head that sort of consumes anything like like a dark cloud that just is that that only only you can see and it highlights all of the the negative things you know the negative things are more bright and positive things are a little bit more hidden and difficult to notice yeah I do think it is different yeah it's all about that feeling that because when you're sad when you're sad I guess you you kind of know that it will pass in a way often and it feels quite cathartic there's like depression yeah you like a release yeah it's like depression you kind of lose or from my experience I kind of lose all sort of sense of time and yeah I do feel that sort of you know soul suck it like I'll never be happy again yeah it's taken a very lovely lovely turn this podcast apologies first no no it's my it's um it's it's it's good to talk to um talk talk to talk about so we should we talk a little bit about autism yeah let's what's your what's your experience with it like when were you diagnosed and what sort of journey did you go on post diagnosis um well I was diagnosed when I was very young I think it was like just before my fifth birthday and um it's actually funny the thing that you said about when you mentioned that uh your mom took you to mcdonald's like just after your this that diagnosis um actually I recently like my mom my mom was telling to me about it and apparently my dad was there as well so I've just been like telling people this story and my mom took me to mcdonald's but my dad was actually there as well okay that's nice that adds a new dimension to that story um but yeah I yeah I just have this I don't remember but I think my mom took me to London um my dad was on holiday like um I think it was like a wedding actually in South Africa but yeah anyway it was his brother's but that's irrelevant yeah she took me to the assessment centre in London and I think I was assessed by um Gillian Bird who was like quite a pioneer in autism yeah as the diagnosis was Asperger's syndrome time and apparently she said to my mom like oh I can already tell that her main struggle is going to be anxiety which was quite um quite a lot of force I I guess for her because she was right um and yeah like I said I don't I remember being at mcdonald's afterwards with my um my mom my grandfather and his wife at the time um and but I I don't connect I didn't connect that day to my assessment I guess we're just so young and then um I think when I yeah when I was I really struggled at school um and I just I think I came home one day and I said to my mama so I think there's something wrong with my personality and that like really upset her um and she gave me this book called the blue bottle mystery which is a story about by Kathy Hoop and I think it's the author and it's about this boy called Ben who gets it's kind of a I think though yeah there is like a sort of detective element to it as far as I remember and he gets diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome and I read it and I was like oh my gosh that sounds like me and I went and told my mom and she's like well my parents and they were like yes you're right you know and I felt really relieved what kind of age were you were you when you were reading that um eight I think then I remember going to school the next day and like telling my best friend that I I had a problem with my brain um and she reacts in a way that was like really sweet that's like oh you know it's okay am I need like I've got a friend who's got a problem with her eye like you know it's fine and especially when I was a teenager I just just felt very like embarrassed by it and they didn't really want to whenever I told a friend about it I would like always kind of tell them like oh I got this and that you know even when I was at university and stuff I'd be like I've got this really big secret um and they sort of like often cry when I told them and you know they'd be like it's fine they usually wouldn't really know a lot about autism or what that meant um but they were always like accepting um yeah and I kind of just really yeah I mean there were some people who were like you know kind of thought that I was sort of using it as an excuse which kind of annoyed me because I tried so hard like not to use it as an excuse yeah it's like it's it's it's very sort of ironic isn't it but it's it's actually something autistic people have a whole sort of name for hiding autism like masking and stuff like we try very hard not to attribute it to autism as much as possible like it's it's a bit weird that people see it that way yeah yeah I just like I think I just like just did not want to be different or I wanted to be like like acceptably weird in a way I think that's often sort of how people saw me as being like oh but you're like quirky or whatever I don't know um but oh yeah I always had a lot of like emotional problems I can cry a lot which is quite embarrassing and I kind of started telling more yeah I wasn't until I started volunteering and working at the NAS that I kind of came out say to speak as being on the spectrum so it's it from from like the the story that you're telling me because it's it's not off I mean unsurprisingly it's not often that I I talked to someone who's um being diagnosed young as well I mean I was diagnosed when I was 10 okay but that but there is sort of around around the sort of end of primary school you do start to feel a little bit strange and weird and like some of the things that the other kids say yeah or how they act just don't really feel right like you don't understand that you sort of feel like they're they're sort of the aliens yeah but you feel like a weirdo um and especially for me like um I was I was very into the this whole sort of romantic sort of side to to life so I was I was you know like I would sort of go up to girls that I liked and and sort of try to you know have so connection connection connect with them yeah have a connection with them and obviously that that led led to a lot of embarrassment I think one time I wanted to change schools because I sent like a a really heartfelt letter to one of them and I know it was tragic but it was okay it was the it was near to the end of primary school so it wasn't too bad but I definitely advise for that that aspect of things but I I never really I never really looked into autism or or tried to understand autism until I sort of started reaching the end of high school like it's it's kind of I think I I didn't like autism at the time because I attributed all the mental health difficulties and the anxiety and depression to my autism yeah at the time since I started to grow up and get a bit older that I made the just the distinction between the two mental health I think another aspect is that mental health definitely was the focal point of my life uh you know since the age of about 13 to about 20 21 22 like a year ago so it's it's um it was sort of a little bit of a barrier for me sort of learning about myself and all that yeah I I feel a lot of what sort of story that you're telling me I feel definitely sort of reflects um on my life um quite a lot the things that you're saying I do I do think at one point when I started doing the YouTubing stuff like nowadays I I'm very inclined to just tell people straight to the face that I'm autistic like it's it's it's not like I'll go up to someone say hi my name's Tom I've got autism yeah yeah it's it's it's more like we'll have a chat about stuff and then it'll come up in a way so like we'll be we'll be it's it's usually when we're talk some reason people like to talk about politics when they get to like parties and stuff so it's whenever we start talking about politics and and sort of um different different views on the world and stuff and then my autism becomes um something that I can mention too and it's it's never a thing that I feel ashamed of talking about anymore because I feel I'm very aware of how it makes me different and I'm also very sort of proud in in a in a weird way like it's it's nice to feel comfortable in your own skin yeah I found myself like talking about it at parties quite a lot and I often find that people have like a connection to it or work with autistic people or have a family member and um yeah it's mad isn't it sometimes I get you know that's slightly sort of well meaning but you know quite sort of unintentionally slightly offensive response it's like oh but don't worry I'd never know and I'm like oh thank god like um and people I think are generally because my fear was always that people be like you know thinking that you're a freak you're a weird you know all these things that you sort of felt as a child that I sort of felt as a child that you know sort of people would sort of see it like because there is still a lot of stigma around neurological conditions and mental health conditions but I found people you know who either reacted like really amazingly or like kindly but slightly ignorantly yeah yeah I think you can kind of talk to them about it and then they learn something which is always good I'm usually quite I'm quite an extroverted sort of social person when I know that I'm going to an event that's social so it's it's always it's always nice to sort of give give people a taste for the social skills and the and all that to let them build a picture of me without the autism and then introduce it because it's it's it's more like profound in that way to other people yeah it's obviously it's something that just immediately crushes your view not crushes that's very aggressive but immediately um makes people think and and I found that started doing it in that way people are very interested because it's like they've already built that connection with you without that sort of group separating aspects and then once you've built that connection then you tell them about it then the very sort of interest and see what life's like for an autistic person which is always nice because it's not something that I had a lot when I was younger like it's nice for people to ask what life is like for me rather than you know just assuming what life is like for me I guess yeah yeah that's true so um we're here today to talk about autism gender stereotypes what does what does stereotype mean like what are gender stereotypes and what are the most common stereotypes around autism that you've picked upon I mean for me I sort of feel like it ties into I had this word like neurosexism quite recently and that's something that I do kind of identify with quite a lot and that um there's this sort of idea of I mean I'm not a scientist by any means but you know that's sort of idea of like the male brain and the female brain and that's something that I personally I don't believe like I'm quite against it just because I feel like it's quite destructive for a lot of people in particular often like women and non-binary people or people who don't fit and I was sort of I think that kind of comes into play with assumptions about autism this um this idea that for some reason we see it as like a male thing and I think that's I think a lot of it is because when people talk about it they often don't really think of like the historical context of it where women are kind of it's only like being quite recently that I suppose women and I mean obviously there are a lot places in the world where women still don't have like the same rights as men at all so they're not going to have that same access to education or you know diagnosis and stuff that um men I suppose especially like straight men might have I don't know I mean I do know but yeah I think um there there is because I know that there are there have been some some papers where autism has been referred to as like the extreme male brain which I think is absolutely absurd like yeah it's so I mean from because I I'm I'm one of those those people that I'm willing to talk about about anything with with anybody and I I obviously have quite a lot of a sort of like scientific backgrounds and stuff and it's it's I feel like it's it's always nice to chat about things that that are in in the world but then and they're not specifically scientific in in a way and it's not really something that you can that we've researched extensively so I think it's it's nice to to chat about things like this because I did like a literature review for my documentary and from like the research that I've done around autism like um in terms in terms of the science scientific angle there seems to be um some neurological hormonal you know type type differences in in autistic people I think things to do with like the the bonding hormone oxytocin seems to be the receptors in the the body for that sort of hormone is um lacking I guess to a certain extent it's not very it's not a very researched area and a lot of the research I've found is to do with the problems I guess you know like the treat treating of um equitation mark symptoms and and all of that kind of stuff um and then and then I suppose from when we're thinking about like the male and female brain there are I think one of one of the the difficulties with um science and and research and all of that is that it can it can appear quite certain yeah quite black and white I think yeah I yeah I definitely agree and I I do think that there are some again talking about sort of generalities there are differences in the the structure like we've we've shown that there are differences in the structure of the male and typical male and female brain um in terms of you know like hormones and you know like females tend to be a bit more intelligent than men but don't particularly show a lot of variation in in the level of intelligence so it's like there's more there's more men who are stupid sort of at the extremes of of the male brain there seems to be a lot of variation whereas females in on average tend to be a lot more intelligent and I guess I'm more emotionally in tune as well females tend to have a lot more in general of course um a lot more white matter which is associated with like connectivity of different brain regions um associated more with ability to sort of cross over between topics of thought um and then I guess guys have more of that large amount of gray matter rather than white matter which is sort of associated with cognition in specific areas so like there's not much crossing over between sort of thought patterns and stuff I do I do think there are some stereotypes and I think although there are differences in in the structure of um brains the way that that's expressed in the way that the the person is doesn't always line up with that train of thought if that makes sense yeah and especially as you know we're living in a world where you know people are starting to sort of realise like kind of how fluid gender is and particularly within the autistic community um I think and I'd like to do more research into why that may be and I think my issue kind of is really that when people say things kind of make sort of blanket statements like women are better at masking their autistic traits or whatever but they don't really explain why that because I feel or I certainly felt this growing up that because you know and being I guess sort of yeah like as a young child being kind of picked on at school and a lot of that was kind of sort of related to gender I felt like it was very yeah I definitely I definitely think there is there there is more harassment for for women especially in the school environment it's it's horrendous like some you know like those typical groups of boys at high school yeah they can they can be absolutely terrorising for for anybody but you know like they're sort of off-handed um sexual comments that you're supposed to just I guess deal with yeah which I think is a very it's it's not really acceptable in my in my eyes and I know that I've always had that that opinion yeah I mean I think it's just this idea that if you don't kind of fit these sort of and no one really does I mean no one really does even the people who are kind of like bully somebody for that's probably because they're insecure about their masculinity or femininity or whatever um yeah it's just a sort of idea that if you don't fit this very sort of rigid construct of what your gender is supposed to be that that makes you less or that makes you because I think we're not sort of used to when I think I do often feel that men are sort of allowed to kind of use their brains and use their intellect in a way that we're starting to see women be able to do more now but it's I suppose that kind of comes into media representations it's often portrayed in this like very sort of straightforward way rather than being a woman being sort of like yeah like a kind of Sherlock type in a way yeah that's kind of the best way I can describe it where I don't really like the word eccentric but I suppose eccentric is the best you know you don't I feel as though we don't see that portrayed enough like a woman that's kind of a bit odd um in the nicest way possible you know I like I like odd odd weird and strange I would definitely consider them it's like the women that doesn't or women that doesn't like sort of get social keys and stuff and where I sort of feel as though women are from a very young age kind of raised to be accommodating and I think I think that the tendency of some some particular guys like you know those sort of high high narcissism kind of men who you know their life revolves around relationships with attractive women you know that those kind of ones that like like money in cars and and all that I think those particular men can be quite harmful like they can they can do a lot of damage to people yeah and I mean women can be awful as you know I guess all people can be awful that sort of kind of representing that sort of unhelpful messages really I mean we're all guilty of it I guess there's often like you know I suppose those sort of quite narcissistic people are probably so insecure about their own self-image that that's you know they feel like that's the most important thing and you kind of just want to like shake them and be like it's okay like you don't have to you don't have to kind of breathe yourself all the time it's quite but yeah I think we're all we all sort of play into it without realising it it's hard yeah as you said I think there there are some basically me growing up in in high school I was harassed by sort of you know like the popular girls at school like that most most of my friends my good friends are female so it's I hear it heard a lot about so the way that the toxic side to sort of girls at school in terms of not all girls just those particular narcissistic ones that are hassles I think like groups of women often get like pitted against each other I think that's the problem yeah it's I read them I read something recently about like the difference between male and female bullying it's like male bullying tends to be more on the aggressive physical side whereas in the sort of female bullying is more about like defaming and sort of isolating people off from groups and spreading rumours and stuff like that yeah do you feel like that's something that you have experienced at school like because I um I think to be honest I can feel like men can be just as sort of manipulative as women yeah and I think yeah I think all I mean I went to a girl's school for the Catholic girl's school for a bit and that was very a lot of people came away from that like kind of with sorts of their emotional issues and I think maybe it does come from this constant like pressure that we have to be more beautiful or to be more whatever than the women next to you rather than just like being alongside them yeah that's sort of my theory really because I think people are too quick to sort of be like oh men just punch each other and get on with it but it's like we shouldn't we shouldn't be accepting that either I know maybe that's easy to say but no I agree with you I agree with you and men are sort of encouraged to do that as well I think like why is it normal say for a man to like go on a night out and pick a fight with someone like that shouldn't be excused or normalized um but I don't I mean I haven't you know I'm not really one to talk about that but it's just sort of what I've heard from my yeah like my male friends and my brother and cousins and stuff not that they do that I definitely have seen a lot of that especially on nights out in Manchester like yeah it does it does seem to be a trend I've never seen two girls fight in a club I've seen a lot of guys throw punches and stuff but yeah I think it's that whole sort of our ancestry with like dominance and all of that I think there's a lot of aspects of men trying to sort of climb their social ladder if I suppose and a lot of them go a little bit more primal than start you know typically take the more physical and aggressive side to to to doing that yeah I guess I guess that's well I mean it is a problem I I think that it's it's violence in any sort of form is ridiculous and unnecessary um oh there was something that I wanted to oh what's going to say um I've lost it I do I do think that there are we do have a tendency with signs to I think some people who can be a little bit more rigid in their approach to people um you know the the whole thing with science is that it it is done in a in a lens of generality like it's a general sort of statement and I think it it can come across as quite harsh and now reminded when people just err ratter on about um what what the science or statistics show or anything like that I think there should there should always be an aspect of talking to people and and sort of getting other people's views because not everybody lies on that generality especially autistic people I suppose and I think the people who tend to say that often tend to be the ones that benefit from it and it's like well that might be easy for you to say but you're suffering I mean I mean I'm probably you know guilty of that as well it's like like it's like you're not if you're in a sort of privileged group you're not suffering with the consequences of making those kind of statements does that make sense yeah so be like if I made it you know like I guess I was like a straight white person for instance if I made a comment about LGBTQ plus people that was sort of very generalized but I yeah really I haven't got a clue and I'm not going to suffer the consequences of those remarks because I'm I'm not in that minority group yeah about you know somebody of a different race or that might be I don't know something that a theory that someone has that I think I think that there is there is a problem with the way that we communicate and in our society as it is it seems to be all you seem to see on news is statements and and contrary opinions but you never sort of see that those conversations that that sort of analyze it and bring in those post those personal and emotional angles to things and I think that's one of the reasons one of the ways that we are sort of failing in a little bit in terms of moving forward in social change right people want to hear that they want to hear their side to things but they yeah but they never really see the contrast in those opinions and whenever those contrasts occur it seems to be quite inflammatory due to the nature of you know media glorifying drama because of those if like this sort of status quote works for you or if you think it works for you you're going to defend it you're going to be like oh well that's just the way things are well it doesn't work which it doesn't work for most people I think you're gonna be like well that might be okay for you to say that but for me it's that's not good enough so um I suppose that's a good this is a good sort of segue into the the next question which is you know what what are the problems of stereotyping and what why are they a problem in terms of autism I guess yeah just sort of the idea that I don't know for me the main thing I've been seeing is that kind of the only have been more kind of representations of autism like in TV and stuff and that's amazing but sort of all male question sorry it's all male yeah it's like male straight and white and um nothing wrong with you know nothing wrong with that but like it's always that kind of storyline which is like oh it's a guy you know trying to get a girlfriend and that is very relatable and something that we can all kind of identify with I think it's like feeling inadequate or feeling weird or whatever but yeah it's kind of sort of sad and a shame considering the fact that I have spoken to you and work with so many autistic people of different like gender sexualities and like ethnicities and to not see that represented in 2020 is quite sad really that you know you and me I think a sort of stereotype I guess example of stereotype that I find quite challenging is um the big bang theory uh Sheldon Cooper um yeah because it's just like this complete sort of you know and stereotype of what people imagine autism and I I used to watch the show quite a lot I haven't watched it in a while so I don't really know the nuances that to be of it so I don't know if it's kind of improved since then but um it's just being sad that it does sort of feel like his autistic tendencies are played for laughs yeah and it's kind of like suggesting that that makes him an asshole if that makes sense yeah that makes him sexist and that makes him it's like yeah you do get autistic people who are assholes like yeah yeah definitely you know but it's kind of like suggesting that those traits make him an asshole because he's like that sort of stereotype of a genius who again is always a man like um but we actually I had a podcast with one of the the girls in the documentary as as me and she uh yeah yeah oh yeah she was cool I liked her and um she uh we were talking about the big bang theory in that podcast actually and then she told me that the actual the guy who plays Sheldon Cooper is quite was was very keen to to give a good representation of um Aspergers because he he did a lot of sort of reading around it and he um talked to um I think a particular um person with with Aspergers and he sort of obviously developed a relationship with them and and sort of understood a little bit more about what autism was about and the the writers of the show obviously are searching for those relatable laughs as as you said about um traits and and stuff and basically sort of amplifying the what what people think autism is like I guess but I guess to to be honest like he does do he does do a good a good job in in some respects with some of the the more typical traits but you know I think again he he is not like most autistic people no that's just my yeah that's just my opinion but no I I agree sort of yeah it gets a bit sort of boring after a while when you're just like why are they laughing why are we laughing at him he's just saying something and yeah so like yeah like long science word you know yeah I just like to sort of see more I mean one that I again wonder who I quite like who is in some ways very stereotypical but also sort of fleshed out is an arbed from community I haven't seen community yeah it's really like I to say kind of he is sort of stereotypical initially but the he is also like quite a sort of well-developed character and because he kind of tries to understand the world by imagining that he's in a tv show which is very meta because he is it is a tv show and um they do yeah some of it is very sort of like touching and I do quite like the fact that he's not white I know that's like only a small thing but it's sort of just seeing yeah people of different or various backgrounds that are on the spectrum so it isn't it isn't something that's kind of fine to be in male and and being white like most most a lot of people in the autistic community that online Instagram and stuff it just it just seemed seemed that the the majority of like the the the Instagram sort of advocates and stuff seem seem to be female which is obviously is obviously great and we've got a lot of people who are from different backgrounds and a lot of people from different opinions and places in the world you know some one person in stuff in you in in you eat section of canada yeah it's got asper girl she's she's great she does like comedy sketches and stuff I think that we do we do need a lot more realistic content on asper just and we and we also need to include people who are autistic as the actors like what it's like it's it's so much easier just to have an autistic actor acting autistic rather than trying to get someone who has to read over stuff and and may not always grasp the point of it or the the nuances and and all that I had to look for um I said Ahmed Abed yeah he's made by non-autistic actors but do you think he did a good job then I do feel like he yeah it's like his mannerism so very like stereotypical but he um yeah I think just in the way that they sort of the other characters respect him it's good he's not just like played for loss but I also look at looking on this this article um apparently there is a new Muppet called Julia who's not who's an autistic Muppet on Sesame Street oh yeah that's awesome I saw that yeah that's that's really cool so like kids can learn about I think that's that's an important way of normalizing autism like from a young age yeah yeah and with a girl yeah you're definitely yeah um you know like stories from the spectrum we're trying to get more people with more complex needs I think um so I guess maybe yeah that's something that needs maybe to be represented more in a way that's realistic tasteful I suppose yeah yeah not rain man no but I understand that sort of it's of it rain man like at the time would have been incredibly progressive and forward thinking yeah I enjoy it not gonna lie like yeah I thought it was a really good film yeah I feel like he did play play the role quite well I think just the the story around it was just a little bit unreal well it is incredibly unrealistic to an extent like not many people not many autistic people have anywhere near the the skills that he has in that show I know it's sort of this idea oh it's this idea that if you're gonna be different you have to be like useful if that makes sense yeah I never thought about it like yeah like oh you have to like contribute in some way and then we'll forgive your like you have to be special and outstanding so when we talk about you know stereotype and stuff I know we've chatted a little little bit about it but where do we draw the line between sort of inaccurate or maybe unrealistic stereotyping and sort of talking about things in in terms of generality right how would how would you draw that line where would you draw it I guess I sort of to to sort of do that in a way that's kind of gives people dignity is by worth doing your talking to people and finding out their experiences because I think you can know you can research something you can like talk you can know sort of what that's like but you're never going to really be able to feel what it's like unless you've walked in those person's shoes so I guess it's maybe just about yeah making sure that if you are like a I don't know the scientists or I don't know how they do it like writing something about autistic people that you actually involve autistic people or if you're writing about autistic women or like autistic people or ethnic minorities you like involve those people in it if you're not of that group yourself and I don't know if that answers the question no that's in terms of like media and things in the public eye yeah I think I agree with you yeah you've got to have you've always got to have that aspect of personal emotional side to things when when you're talking about anything to do with science for a sort of mainstream audience it needs it needs to always have those aspects within it because if they're not included then it sort of propagates those quite ironic black and white views of autism yeah yeah I know it's slightly ironic isn't it because you know it's often like autistic people are sort of accused of seeing things in black and white and yet often autism will be described by non-autistic people in these very black and white terms and I think I don't know I guess saying things like because I always found the for ages I thought you know somebody gave me a compliment on like my social skills or whatever I'd be like no I'm not like I'm not good at that just because I've read things about autism that kind of suggested like they have impaired social skills and I think so now I sort of try to say like autistic people might not socialize in a way that is considered sort of like traditional yeah it's different isn't it like they might yeah it's just like different I think that needs to be explained more clearly because otherwise you get people like me looking it up and thinking that you're just a sort of kind of very damaged human unappealing person yeah like someone of people just don't I think one of we kind of go on the media kind of goes on about like charm and charisma too much without actually talking about like being a good person like more so much emphasis that's gone slightly off topic is put on like being likable it's quite unquite likable and they're not enough is put into actually being like kind yeah and as it shouldn't matter much how you how you communicate with people as long as you're not really upsetting anyone or yeah but I think I think like one of the one of the way the things that I was trying to get from this question is that like I feel like in this day and age people do see they see life as snippets like they don't they'll watch maybe a three second for a three minute video online about which highlights some of the more some of the parts of you know fit things like for example with a podcast you know someone might chop chop up the podcast and isolate bits of information or something that someone said and then produce a blog or something about it but not many people will listen to it in full and get an idea of the context like I think that can sometimes come across as this person's an asshole for thinking this or talking about this rather than getting a full idea of of what they're about I guess this person this bit this person said that all females are not autistic they're just a bit strange that's now yeah this person hates women or whatever yeah like yeah I see that we all do that all the time with celebrities like I can't believe they tweeted that or they made that comment and really it's I mean I do that as well I'm guilty of being like I believe they said that but it's a bit unfair really because they're not really there to explain they can't yeah I mean I guess everyone's got to be allowed to express their opinion unless it kind of really hurts other people yeah or unless it like falls into like hate speech but yeah we do definitely like jump to conclusions and I guess the same goes for maybe me listening to someone saying something about autism that I just find you know like maybe a bit superficial and I'll immediately jump to a conclusion that that person is it doesn't care so we're all guilty of doing it yeah I agree with that I definitely if I see something said about autism especially Twitter like Twitter is the worst for it like if I see someone saying something that I don't agree with I have sort of an immediate sort of reaction that I want to tweet about it and and all that but then I guess I've sort of put a mental block on myself sort of give myself room to process it and figure out like do I do I really want to give this person more attention by tweeting about it or yeah that's true in terms of like that question in the context of a sort of casual discussion like someone that you meet at a party or a friend of a friend or a a relative or or something like that like how how would you go about talking about these type of things and expressing opinions without sort of inaccurately stereotyping or or anything like that I just I don't know I tend to in my kind of conversation style in general I I am I do have a tendency to sort of like self-censor and kind of edit myself a bit too much while I'm talking so I guess I kind of tend to do that a bit and where I kind of talk about things from my experience and my experience is very sort of relatively it's very sheltered I suppose compared to what a lot of autistic people have gone through so I guess I kind of try to say that and I sort of hate that therefore then they don't think that I'm just talking in stereotypes or suggesting that all autistic people are like me because they're not I think when you're expressing an opinion that maybe won't be fully agreed with you always as long as you consider it of the other person's opinion and you don't sort of shove it in the other person's face which obviously would lead to confrontation I think being being that way and being always very considerate of the environment that you're in you know and just just having a normal conversation with someone it's always good to try and hear people out and always fall back on that you know idea of just having a discussion rather than taking shots at each other I suppose yeah and I think there's too much like lots of like rhetoric in our in our culture is kind of people feel like they always have to win arguments and I like I don't want to get especially you know it's somebody else's life so for them it's not just like this fun debate that you know they're trying to win it's their experience and their life so I think I try not to go into you know I think it's good just to go into like have a discussion and learn something rather than like trying to win an argument I feel that a lot and definitely you know like I'm yeah you're not going to sort of lecturing somebody on something that you don't actually know a lot about or you don't know something but you haven't experienced yourself especially when it's so personal to somebody like even if even if you do feel like they're completely wrong you should always if whenever you're talking about someone's experiences or someone's life you should all you should always err on the the side of niceness respect respect yeah yeah you shouldn't like say well you're wrong because then they could be like well actually that like happened to me you know so that could raise on this day a week yeah I think this idea that yeah we people are sort of and that definitely comes from like social media as well like the comment section of people like trying to win an argument is it's very it's very unhelpful it's not everything has to be competitive it's like we're all trying to work towards the common goal of connecting connecting people and getting a good idea of people's opinions and weighing them up and and all of that I mean I think in terms of personal experiences talking about autism it either goes the bad experiences that you would sort of see would would even go one of two ways one is the the person thinking they know about autism and then when I say that I'm an autistic I'm an autistic person saying oh you shouldn't you shouldn't identify with your disability and all that so they try and take that nice angle on things but it because they're not listening to what I'm saying it it actually just comes off as very annoying and now reminded and then you've got the other side as well people you know just especially the older generation just saying well no that's just part of normal life you know especially with like mental health like well everyone gets a bit down everyone has that yeah that's very frustrating isn't it yeah but I always take the angle of humour you've got to laugh about it I think I find it hard when people are like a lot of people are like oh you should see it as a gift and they're being nice they're being genuine that's when I guess I would want to explain more about it but yeah when people are like oh everyone feels like that you sort of feel a bit like oh my gosh am I just making like a massive deal of nothing because I remember having that reaction from a friend in school and it was just like this anger because she was like I suppose she saw my life as kind of perfect because you know in a lot of ways I am really really fortunate but I was kind of not saying that I'm not fortunate but this is something that maybe is something that I struggle with that you might not struggle with and she yeah she just got so like very very angry because she was like everyone has that like yeah and that's quite hard to deal with because then you think am I just being a drama queen she's trying to be nice isn't it but it's coming from that narrow-minded angle of I know kind of this is why what I'm saying is right which is always going to be a difficulty when you're talking to someone who literally lives as an autistic person like I suppose yeah it's like because I don't have the struggles of I recognize I don't have the struggles of somebody with more complex needs and so I suppose somebody's when it's a sort of invisible condition yeah people just find it so hard to think outside the box and think well what are you complaining about yeah that's that's quite a common thing I would say but always always through through just I always try to talk to anybody who has that sort of narrow-minded stance on the things and I have had a lot of luck in my own in my own life with with sort of bringing bringing people around and explaining more and I guess I always see those opportunities as a chance to make people more aware I guess it's never an uncomfortable horrible experience for me but I guess that's probably due to my outlook on things but what do you think in terms of like the mainstream media and film and tv and stuff what changes do you think would I know you've you've mentioned of a few throughout but what main changes do you think would help to spell these stereotypes I think for a start just seeing kind of mainstream representations of not only autistic women and girls but yeah sort of anyone who's kind of not the norm like a straight white man I feel like I'm sounding like I'm hating straight white women not but it would just be sort of nice to see a variety of autistic people because you do I have seen characters on tv that you know female character you know that have not gotten autism diagnosis but they're not the protagonist have a lot of those sort of yeah they'd be nice you know just because in my own life I I'd like to see the autistic people I know reflected yeah so I think that that would be a good start um sorry I've forgotten the rest of it okay no that's that's great like I think those are those are all things that would help combat these stereotypes and I think it is just down to exposure and I know it's sometimes it's hard when you know that there's a problem to view it in a very sort of slow progressive way but I guess this this whole acceptance and of autism and even even with things like race and sexuality and stuff it is always a slow gradual process I guess and the more that we can talk about and more that we can expose people to it the more that we'll start seeing some positive changes in the more concrete realm of policies and and and education and and stuff like that but it's a growing process and we are we are both contributing to it with this uh this little podcast I hope so yeah at least yeah I like to think so so what are the main three things that you want people to take away from this podcast like if you were to oh gosh if you were to have a little summary on on google you know like next to the the title what would it say um oh I guess yeah just that I mean it's quite an obvious but I guess that autism come you know autistic people can autism isn't sort of exclusive to one people of a certain background like or gender or you know you can get you get autistic people all over the world they just people might not know that they're autistic yet and um yeah it doesn't it doesn't exclude I guess it's what I want to say that um so I guess that's one kind of another one would be um yeah I just want people to be more open to talking about it and open to listening to people on the spectrum talk about and not sort of because I do sort of feel that people with yeah things like the people who have a diagnosis over autism and people also people with mental health issues can get quite easily sort of to use a buzz word I guess gas lighted so I suppose because people kind of you know you can easily say uh well you don't know what you're talking about because you have this condition so that skews your view on things but yeah I think I guess yeah the second thing would be to just encourage people to be taking interests um and I told you I told you don't you know don't panic I'd like I'd like people to take away as kind of the yeah not seeing autism as this one way of thinking I guess I haven't really spoken about that enough but not seeing seeing autism as not just sort of like yeah this black and white way of thinking but as yeah like creativity different way of thinking yeah I suppose actually sorry oh I guess maybe I think I'll change that to uh being aware of I want people to be more aware of like co-occurring mental health conditions and autism well you can include all both of those I think they're both yeah cool thank you very much for those I know that can be the most difficult part of the podcast because you start getting to that little flow of chatting about stuff and then um you're very in the present when you when you're chatting especially when you're just in front of a computer just looking into space like you get quite into the present that you it's hard to sort of bring yourself out and think about what you're talking about and yeah I'm like no wait that but also that you know I get that I know we got the last question which is one that I ask every person who has autistic um who comes onto the podcast what does autism mean to you I suppose for me it's I mean it's very hard to know because I haven't experienced life as a non-autistic person so um yeah for me I guess it it just means I guess a sort of different way of looking at things in in all its kind of positives and negatives um like I say I don't I don't necessarily see it as a gift I don't necessarily see it as a negative thing it's just sort of is it's an element of me I do find it's difficult to separate it from my personality and I guess yeah it's just another another part of who I am I guess I sort of have quite a neutral attitude to it I don't see it as a gift like I said I don't see it as a gift I don't see it as a curse I used to see it as a curse um but I've kind of come to terms with it awesome I do I do agree with that I'm very much on the the neutral side of life in in terms of my view of autism um it is sometimes difficult and it does make things hard but it also gives you a little bit of a a difference which is always welcome in all areas of life I think someone with a drastic difference or at least a notable difference in how they work and process and think I think all that is very helpful in all aspects of society but thank you very much for that Hermione do you want to give everybody some licks to things that you want them to see I know that you've you've got the recipe for being a woman your poetry book which we talked a little bit about you've got the blue bottle mystery the one that you read when you you're young it's sort of understands yourself a little bit better and then what was the other one I can't remember ab ab ad something ab dad ab ad ab ab ad yeah community the show tv show community which is on netflix if you have netflix um it's also on amazon prime I think very cool are there any links that you want to give to your uh like blog site and all that yeah so my blog is um the address is hermionecamronone.wordpress.com okay hermione it's h-e-r-m-i-o-n-e and then it's all lower case Cameron is c-a-m-e-r-o-n okay um and my yeah I put a lot of yeah on Instagram I'm my yeah my handle is Hermione one which is um h-e-r-m-i-r-o-n-y one it's going to be like all right yeah I like it um and my twist thank you my twitter's the same as well and I tend to place stuff I'm doing there I want to then you also have your stories on the spectrum section yeah stories from the spectrum I definitely recommend it's um so it's on the natural artistic society website and um which is www.autism.org.uk uh slash about slash stories and then there's also the spectrum magazine on the website which is um under on the nas website under about adult life resources spectrum very cool thank you very much for those um I will put all of those in the description and if there's anything else that you want me to put links to um I will also include them but thank you thank you very much for coming on to the podcast today to talk about um something I've always I've always wanted to have a little um chat about um these types of things and it's it's nice to finally um have someone on with you know is willing to have a nice nice and productive discussion about something that that may be sometimes a little bit inflammatory but I think with yeah I think we've done well yeah and I thank you very much for having me it's been been great have you enjoyed it I've really enjoyed it actually it's my first time doing something like this on the podcast so yeah I was a little bit nervous but actually yeah I've really enjoyed it it's just been like having a chat cool so thank you everybody for listening and tuning in to the 40-odd podcast you can always find the podcast on anchor spotify and apple podcasts under the 40-odd podcast of course and then there are my youtube channel there is my youtube channel rather asperger's growth which I post videos about autism and mental health and my documentary website that's recently aired it's called asperger's in society if you want to go um have a watch it's completely unmonetized and free to watch and if you want to learn a little bit more about the process of making it and maybe um see some more of like behind the scenes footage and interviews with people who um were on the documentary you can find that at www.asperger's in society.com other than that social medias on instagram facebook and twitter at asperger's growth very easy to find me and if you do want to donate um on patreon which is always very welcome because this this podcast is always ad-free and always unmonetized so any support in that sense would be amazing thank you very much for watching everybody listening rather or watching if you're on youtube I can never do these these altars very well I don't like to end up like summarized conversation it's it's very difficult to uh to do that but while I will leave you with is have a great day if you're in the midst of a day or have a great little sleep if you're uh have a nice relaxing time in the bath or uh whatever it's a bit weird for me to think about maybe don't don't do that and I'll see you in the next episode of the 4 to 30 podcast thank you very much see you later guys you can say bye as well bye stay hydrated