 What's happening with human resting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii in Moana, New York, Kaya. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper. And the title of today's episode is World Indigenous Peoples' Day, Hope Visit, the Doctrine of Discovery to the UN SIRD Review. I'm very fortunate to be joined by amazing advocates, elders, academics, and activists who are very involved to make sure that the world understands the real purpose of World Indigenous Peoples' Day that really does celebrate the resilience and resistance as well as the recognized human rights and public international law. Thank you all for joining and making time to share your story about how you were involved with the Pope's visit, as well as other important aspects of World Indigenous Peoples' Day. Kenneth. Hi, how are you, Josh? Thank you for inviting me. It's wonderful to be here. And it's also a good way to commemorate the world's Indigenous UN Day, but the world's Indigenous peoples or whatever it's called. And it sounds good to celebrate that. Cheryl, thank you for joining us from the other side of Canada and sharing with us your perspective. Thank you, Josh. It's a pleasure to be joining you and my fellow panelists today. Thank you for the invitation. And thank you as well, Michelle, for making time from your busy schedule to be able to participate and discuss the amazing work that you did in preparing for this visit. Thank you, Josh. It's a real honor to be here today. And so as the world knew and focused on what was happening, the visit of the Pope to Canada really did capture global attention. Kenneth, could you maybe share why that was so important and what were some of the highlights of that visit and the deeper message, of course, and long-term strategy going forward? That's a lot to do. First of all, the Pope's visit to Canada was a long time coming. It wasn't something that was, I just, you know, this didn't come out of thin air. There's been a long campaign for the Pope to apologize for the residential schools in Canada. You know, there's been a lot of litigation for decades about the victims of the Canadian government's policy of assimilation through the residential schools. And a lot of those schools were run by Christian organizations and most of them were run by the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church has never really apologized for its role in the assimilation of indigenous peoples. Other churches have apologized and they have also paid money to make a settlement. But the Catholic Church was resistant to that. So there was a call for the Catholic Church to apologize for the Pope to apologize. And finally, last spring, a delegation of indigenous peoples went to Rome to meet with the Pope, invited by the Pope, organized by the Canadian Catholic of Catholic Bishops. And there the Pope made a half an apology, I would say. And the people wanted more and he promised to come to Canada. So he came, finally came to Canada last month. And he went to three places, Edmonton, Black City and another community up north. And what was significant about that, I think that was different, was at least the Pope made a stronger apology. At first he was apologizing in Rome for individuals in the Catholic organization that may have done some wrong and which was really inadequate. This time he was a bit more taking up, saying that there were certain institutions inside Canada that were responsible for the tragedy of residential schools. But he still did not take responsibility for the whole church, the whole church's responsibility for residential schools. So that left, so that was a big shortcoming in his, his apology was a lot better than the one he did in Rome. And he did say he asked for people's forgiveness and he was a lot more sincere. The, I think the wording in Rome was more written by a lawyer. This time a little less lawyer, a little bit more Pope Francis. And what still didn't go quite far enough. However, many of the residential school survivors were waiting for this apology and many of them accepted it and they felt it makes them feel good and fine it's good for them. And on the other extreme, there are some people who would not accept the apology. And for some people, it doesn't matter what the Pope would say, they would never accept it. So there was a broad range, everything in between in his visit was the reaction in Canada. And it was worldwide news. Our part of this though, why we were involved was that the Haudenosaunee, we weren't looking for an apology, we were there to talk about the revocation of the papal bulls that make up the doctrine of discovery. And that's the fundamental edicts that I took away the sovereignty of it. Well, it didn't take away our sovereignty, we still have our sovereignty, but what it made European monarchs think that they had sovereignty over our land and the conflict and the dispossession and the disempowerment of indigenous peoples that took place from the, since Columbus came all the way to the present. And the church, we had to make the church realize that those papal bulls are still being used today by states to dispossess indigenous people. So that was our part of the visit. We weren't there looking for an apology, we were there. An apology without action doesn't mean anything. So we need action with any kind of an apology. Thank you, Kenneth. And that of course really looks at the legal underpinnings where the doctrine of discovery in those papal bulls, then in the minds of those doing the colonizing provided the framework to then continue the dispossession as well as the taking of lands and all the other human rights violations that were outlined in his visit that he was making the apology for. That's right. And there's a lot more to it. Well, one of the things about the, we've been on a campaign for many, many years to have the Pope, the Vatican revoked the papal bulls and going back to the permanent forum and many, many years ago, all the way up today and we weren't getting a lot of attention but with the Pope's coming to Canada, it was national news. The doctor of discovery was in the major newspapers across Canada and it really brought forward the issue. And I think that was one of the most significant things that the Pope did in his visit brought that whole idea of the basis of colonialism. And the Pope, when he was in Quebec City made very strong words about the evils of colonialism. And so that's what the papal bulls started. The discovery of new lands and claiming that land for their minor action, this possession, the indigenous people and dominating the indigenous people is what colonialism was all about. Very true. And I remember here in Hawaii, of course, we always had the papal bulls burning for Indigenous People's Day in October. And it's really important to show the resistance that has always been there and to challenge those concepts of Terinolius as well. And Michelle, you had done an amazing aspect to sort of plant the seeds and make sure that this event actually happened. Did you share your involvement earlier? Sure. I had received an invitation to attend with the First Nations delegation that traveled to the Vatican earlier this spring. And it was to serve in the position of as a female spiritual advisor to compliment the male spiritual advisor that was part of this delegation. And the invitation first came by way to one of our Mohawk clan mothers from Akwasasini. She was unable to attend. And so myself and another Mohawk sister, Gadji Juni Fox, we both attended, but I'm the one that went in and spoke and gave, I didn't give, but I presented a cradleboard to the Pope. So I was in this private audience. There were 15 of us delegates altogether, which consisted of chiefs and elders, mostly all survivors and also two youth delegates to present all of the issues and outlining all of the historical traumas, all of the current requests that are being made in order to try to make things right. And then voices from the young people talking about the future and what are the things that they would like to see. And then I closed it out with just like an overview to the Pope of kind of like all of the issues and really speaking to family and speaking to how this doctrine of discovery, these papal bulls that make up the doctrine of discovery, how they've impacted our people throughout time and continues to lead to the dispossession of our lands and our children even to this day. And with that, I presented a empty cradleboard that was sent over by our clan mother to represent all of the children who never came home from residential schools. And in addition to think about all the impacts that have happened to our people because of the schools, but ultimately leading it back to the source of these papal bulls and doctrine of discovery and recognizing how that this doctrine of discovery is still used in law today. And as a matter of fact, I live on the state side and it was cited by the Supreme Court in 2005 by Ruth Bader Ginsburg in the Sheryl versus United Nation case, which I'm a member of. And so for me, it was really very meaningful to be able to travel right to the Vatican to the source of where these papal bulls came from and to address the Pope on the doctrine of discovery and asking for the revocation of these papal bulls. And so with that, when I returned, I continued to be able to advocate for our Haudenosaunee External Relations Committee for which Kenneth is a member of, to be able to meet with the Pope when he came here to Canada to be able to address these papal bulls and also with the Catholic bishops. In addition to that, I had been invited by the Assembly of First Nations to continue to provide cultural guidance in regard to this people visit and all of the different places he would be stopping but I had a special emphasis in Quebec City. So I was part of that delegation that traveled with Kenneth from our Haudenosaunee Confederacy to be able to go and to meet with him. But unfortunately, there was a lot of resistance in the sense of the indigenous nations would create their agenda and whatever was sent back by the Vatican, there was sort of like this, I don't know, a real clear sense that indigenous peoples' voices were not really prioritized and hearing from indigenous nation leaders was also not prioritized. So we did not get to have that moment to address the Pope, but for sure he knew that we were there and the media also knew that we were there and our reason for going as well. And that really frames the world indigenous peoples' day because we can explore the recent Pope Francis visit to Canada and the formal apology as well as though what happened last month, the 15th expert mechanism on the rights of indigenous peoples' session and the current UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination happening in Geneva now. Maybe we could talk a little bit, Kenneth, about last month at the 15th session, there were some fireworks even before the first opening session happened. What was going on related to indigenous peoples' rights that really did capture the world's attention and made people stand up and really be in solidarity together? Well, thanks, I thought that was a month ago. Hey, boy, it feels a whole lot longer. Like forever. The expert mechanism is always an interesting meeting to attend and I encourage people to go there if you ever get a chance. And there was a really good agenda on treaties, for instance, between states and indigenous peoples that was on the agenda and violence against indigenous women and there was a lot of good stuff on the agenda. And the first day of the meeting after we did our traditional opening, we had some people from industry from Mexico and Haudenosaunee and Pasquora, a gentleman, do the opening. And then we had the first agenda item, it was about treaties. And while our speaker was, just before our speaker, there was an indigenous woman from Russia who spoke and was talking about the difficulties that the indigenous people were having in Russia. And while she was talking or just after she's talking, the representative of the Russian Federation started yelling at her and demanding, saying that she was spreading propaganda. And he was yelling these things, oh, wow. And then he went out and he stood up in front of her and demanding to know her name. So he was intimidating her. And it was all the buzz in the room wondering what can we do about it. She started crying. She was so intimidated that she started crying. So people went up to her to sort of console her, defend her. I went up to myself to talk to her and I talked to other people and we say, we can't let this stand. We gotta say something. So I had permission, I went up to the podium. I talked to the chairman and to the secretary and I said, we gotta say something. Now, I wanna know if I could take the floor. And they said, okay, we'll give you the floor at 10 to one. And it was 1230. So we went back on my way back to my chair. I gathered a group of friends. I dictated what I want to say to Ghazali. And he typed it up on his laptop and then he emailed it to me when I sat down. They told me, Mr. Dewey, you're on in two minutes. And just as the chairman was giving me the floor, Russia, the Russian British asked for a right of reply. And the chairman was trying to explain to him that you don't have a right of reply. And in the end, we have our own rules here. Everybody insisted to know what was the name of that woman. I want to know the name of that woman. Nobody wants to tell me the name of that woman. We have a right to know who speaks. And when he finally kept quiet, the chairman gave me the floor. So the first thing I said was thanking him for the floor. And I'm speaking on behalf of the Indigenous Peoples Preparatory Meeting, which I was the chairman. I said, my name is Kenneth Deere. I don't, if anybody wants to know. And everybody applauded because I wanted to demonstrate to Russia that I was not being intimidated by them. Let them know my name. And then I went on to say that the behavior of a certain government, I never mentioned Russia. I never mentioned the name of Russia, I said. That a certain government here was, behavior was unacceptable. It was intimidating, an Indigenous woman. And that Indigenous people have every right to speak truth to power here in this room. And the United Nations should not be free to allow people to speak freely and also particularly in bodies that are specific for Indigenous peoples. And that I said that if that person belonged to an NGO, we could pull that person's badge. But because it's a state, we can't. So we asked the Bureau, which is the committee that oversees the Human Rights Council to take action against that government. And then I got a standing ovation after with that statement. So to stand up for an Indigenous woman who has been intimidated by a state. So that's how it works. That was the first session, the morning session on Monday morning. And it said a tone, I guess, or maybe not a tone, but there was some tension in the room for the rest of the week. Because every now and again, there was something Russia would respond in. Somebody else would respond. A group of states respond the next day criticizing Russia by name that they were against the, they admonished of the Russian Federation for the behavior. So it was a thousand times. And it was, it reminded me of years ago, when you, I was giving an intervention on Tibet and the Panchen Lama, when we're focusing on children's rights. And I'll never forget, you told me, if they silence one of us, they silence all of us. So don't worry about them saying they'll end the meeting. Everyone should always speak. And it's great to see nothing has changed. It was great to see Guatemala and the coalition of states speak up as well. And I was just today at the International Service for Human Rights, and they're investigating as a formal reprisal as well. So the issue is not over yet. And it's, and we really appreciate you speaking. Cheryl, could you share as vice chair in the North American member of EMRIP, what were some of the results of that important five day meeting and the exciting next steps that'll be happening as well? Well, thanks, Josh. And thanks, Kenneth, for giving us a recap of our adventurous first session on that very first morning. I just want to take a moment to mention that reprisals and concern about reprisals has always been there with UN work and with people speaking on the floor. And what's new here is that it was actually happening in the room. There have always been concerns about people returning home and feeling safe or even reprisals happening out in the hallway or the coffee shop. But this was unprecedented and really a deep and serious concern to the secretariat and the human rights council and everyone who was aware of what was happening. And as EMRIP members, we felt so strongly about what had happened in the room and what is also going on relatedly around the world. We made two of our nine recommendations for the year all about reprisals against mandate holders, those speaking on the floor and also any human rights defenders around the world because we've seen such an increase in violence and reprisals against them. So at the end of the EMRIP session, as Kenneth mentioned, we had a full agenda. We had a packed agenda all week covering so many important issues like treaties, constructive arrangements, violence against indigenous women. The international decade on indigenous languages. We had a session on that. We had a coordinating session with the other mechanisms. We had so much, it was a packed agenda for five days. I can't believe how much work we've covered. And at the end, EMRIP together sits down and creates, we had nine proposals this year that go forward to the human rights council. And like I said, two of them, proposals three and four were all concerning reprisals and the deep level of concern that we all have and encouraging the human rights council to take special attention and care of that this year. And we also are encouraging more states to get involved because what we noticed was not many member states in the room this year. And so one of my own concerns was that inappropriate behavior by one state kind of took up too much space and threatened to get in the way of all of the important work that we were doing. So we want to encourage other states to participate in all of this as well. And speaking of participation, I think this is one of the biggest outcomes from the EMRIP meeting that I'm really happy to report this year is a call to continue to work on the area of enhancing and expanding the participation possibilities for an indigenous people within the human rights council. And coming forward from that is a workshop that will be taking place in November in Geneva. And I believe it's four or five days workshop. I can't remember which shot the top of my head, but it's in late November and that will be four days, Kenneth is reminding, four days that we'll be looking deeper into the participation question and how to enhance that so that eventually indigenous peoples can appear at the United Nations as themselves, as their own representative institutions that they don't have to either show up as an NGO or as a member of a state delegation that they'll have the right to participate and speak on their own and in their own right as themselves. So I'm seeing some movement in that area that's very exciting. It's very true and it goes back to what we originally talked about that it's not having to go under a NGO status and non-governmental, but it's being able to represent indigenous peoples, their nations as part of the solution. And Kenneth gave one of the strongest presentations I believe when Kenneth, you were sharing about why indigenous peoples are at the end to remind the world about the environment that they just can't seem to get. Although we see now with the record heat, it's hotter in Geneva than it is in Hawaii this week. And so it really to remind people, think of the Mother Earth, but also of all the species as well. And it was a quite a powerful meeting to bring everyone together and to think about the next steps and show you really did put it to, but remind to be of the one of the committees, the Sea Dog, the Committee on the Elimination and Discrimination Against Women participated, but also this week, we now have CERD on racial discrimination. And that was the first treaty after the Universal Declaration of Human Rights where they said, if you look at racism and xenophobia, that's the start of the scourge of war. So maybe Kenneth, you could share, why is it important to go to these treaty bodies such as CERD and what have been some of the gains of the times you have gone forward as the U.S. begins its review on Thursday and Friday? I think the treaty bodies are really important. Those of our listeners, what a treaty body is in the United Nations is where international law is supposed to be enforced or at least put pressure on states to listen to the obligations that all the states have signed on to. So in this case, the United States has to report on its behavior in upholding the Declaration of Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. And in this committee meeting called the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, indigenous peoples and other peoples can bring up complaints about racial discrimination that take place inside the United States. So if you can document really serious instances of racial discrimination, you can bring it to the United Nations, to the CERD committee, and the CERD committee can listen to your complaint and they can investigate that complaint and they can make recommendations to the state and they can condemn the state for certain behaviors. And as you know, there's a lot of racial discrimination in the United States and in other countries, you know, Canada and others, as indigenous people, we know what racial discrimination is about and how serious it is. And I always tell like to tell the story of what the Durban Declaration in 2001, there was a world conference against racism, racial discrimination and xenophobia. And in that, this is 2001, remember, and we were still fighting for our own declaration states were still fighting against indigenous people. So they, so in the declaration, there were some good language, you know, indigenous peoples should be free of racial discrimination and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So really good, really good paragraphs and they were using a term indigenous peoples, but if you look at paragraph 24, paragraph 24 says the term indigenous peoples in this declaration does not imply rights under international law. So here it was a declaration against racism, was racially discrimination, discriminating against indigenous people, saying that we were not people. So that's the depth of the racism and the discrimination indigenous peoples were fighting against in the United Nations. That was 2001, that's the 21st century, states were saying that. And the only time they could stop saying that is after the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples was passed in 2007, which said that indigenous peoples are peoples and therefore have a right to self determination and the protections of international human rights law. And that's what's important about CEDAW and CERD and all of these international treaties is that indigenous peoples are now, since 2007 are subjects of international law and we have to take advantage of that. Thank you and Cheryl, maybe you could share how it's been positive as well on why these instruments, these 10 treaty bodies are so valuable, including the subcommittee against torture and those all together as a package, as a space. Absolutely, Josh. And I will share my observation. Now I've only been on emirate for two years, but I've been watching as an academic for a significantly longer time than that. We won't mention years, but what I have noticed over time, and if we take a step back, I think we all have heard erroneously that the UN declaration is said to be not legally binding or non-binding instrument. Well, that's not exactly true because what we are seeing increasingly is all of these treaty bodies, whether it's CERD, CEDAW, the Human Rights Committee are increasingly and sometimes exponentially increasingly year after year, how they're using the UN declaration as a unique lens to interpret the conventions and the treaties. So that makes it binding in many respects and we can see this increase, like I say year after year. And I commented about that on the floor of the emirate this year because just in the two years that I've been on emirate and meeting with the treaty bodies annually, I've seen a notable increase and broadening of scope in how they are using the UN declaration to interpret their own work on the treaties. And so I think this is very encouraging. I'm pleased to see it. And I would hope that when the United States is reviewed this time around, that the UN declaration is brought into those considerations and those conversations as well. So I encourage that to keep moving forward. Thank you. And one I can say is there's already 20 indigenous peoples in the room that'll be speaking tomorrow at the briefing of the members. US has not done as many optional protocols and doesn't have as good a case law as what has happened in Canada. We do have the early warning urgent action and Hawaii has the Mauna Kea case and also on the Iwi Kapuna of the elders and the digging up of the bones and the ancestral remains. So we'll be raising those. We really do thank you all for joining us and we have to definitely continue this conversation. Of course, World Indigenous Peoples Day was named after the August 9th when we had the first working group on indigenous populations which has now been replaced with the M-Rip and we look forward to continuous conversation every day and so excited about all the gains that have happened so far and all the work everyone does on a daily basis. Mahalo. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.