 everyone. Think Taekwondo. Thursday afternoon, February 24th, 2022. Welcome back afternoon for those of you in Hawaii evening or maybe even morning for those of you in other places. We have the very, very special good luck and blessing of having with us today. A really long admired and valued friend and colleague David Louie, former attorney general, partner at major Hawaii law firm Kawayashi Sugita and Gota and also an extraordinary woodworker. It's crafted bowls and other works of wood art and we only have a half an hour but David, what in your background and experience wound you up as attorney general for the state of Hawaii? Hey, thanks for having me on your show check. It's really a pleasure to be here. So, you know, my background to become the attorney general was, you know, it was a meandering path. I never really planned on it but there's a long tradition of public service in my family. My father was a minister and then he worked for the county of Los Angeles as a human relations consultant for 20 years. My mother was a nurse and when I was in law school, I had a lot of friends who pursued public service careers, you know, doing all kinds of things, become judges. One of my roommates became the mayor of San Francisco. So, there were a lot of people that provided role models for me. You know, I just was a lawyer. I just did, you know, litigation, fighting over money and, but I always had an interest in issues and in organizations and in leadership issues. And so, I, you know, served with the Hawaii State Bar Association as the board of directors and president. I worked on some national organizations, the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association as a regional governor. I worked with the judiciary and I served in state government as a, I forget what they called this. I was a board member on the Aloha Tower Development Corporation for eight years, appointed by Ben Caetano and then later by Governor Lingle. And so, having that kind of experience gave me the preparation for assuming the job of the attorney general. It wasn't, you know, you can never be prepared for taking on a job like that fully. But it gave me a lot of good background and my litigation background gave me a lot of good background. And so, I was fortunate to do that. And, you know, it's opportunity is said when preparation meets chance. And, you know, it just came along and it was by chance that I knew Governor Abacrombi and I knew Bill Canneco, who was Governor Abacrombi's campaign chair. And Bill suggested that I apply and I thought about it and eventually I did apply and then eventually I was selected by the governor, which was really grateful to him for putting his faith and trust in me. And I'm sure the gratitude from Governor Abacrombi was at least as large, if not larger, going back toward you for the roles and challenges you took on. So, we'll get to some successes and achievements in a minute, but what were some of the hardest things, biggest challenges and obstacles when you came in? Well, you know, the major challenge, I think, was the lack of money when we first came into the picture. You know, government is always at this point in time at a crossroads. You can either pay people salaries or you can try and do progressive things and try and fund programs, but you cannot do both really well. I mean, you know, you try and do as much as you can. It's a balancing act. The legislature has to handle it. So, one of the biggest challenges was lack of money. We were underwater. We were coming in. This was the national mortgage crisis was full blown then in 2011. There was recession. And so that was that was really a difficulty. And then the other thing was just, you know, learning the job. That was it was a very steep learning curve that the job of Attorney General is a big job. There's a lot of stuff there. There's a lot of legal issues and a lot of responsibilities. And I was fortunate to have really great people at the EG's office to help guide me along the way and teach me what I needed to know and help me make decisions and move the thing forward. So those were some of the tough, tough things that came along. And along the way, there are always challenges, you know, there's always challenges, people, people trying to push you around, people trying to get their way. I've always thought of government as, you know, and it's an apt analogy of like in Hawaii, because we used to have Kiku TV with the sumo wrestling. And I've always thought of government as a sumo match. You know, you have half naked and naked interests pushing and shoving each other around a ring seeking dominance, authority, money, influence, and power. And, you know, it's not for the faint of heart. That's a great way to put it. And in fact, you're an artisan in other respects as well. But so what are some of the successes and achievements that mean the most to you for your legacy looking back? Yeah, well, thanks for asking, you know, the most important issues that that we handled. I think there's about five or six of them that I'm the most proud of. And the first one is is same sex marriage. We with the leadership of Governor Abercrombie and the legislative leaders, the Senate president and the House Speaker, we brought forward the legislation to legalize same sex marriage, which was, I think, a big deal. Yeah, I mean, this was on the heels of the US Supreme Court ruling in seminal cases that it was unconstitutional and illegal under the federal constitution to discriminate against people for same sex marriage. But still, it was a fractious, contentious kind of issue. Very people very passionate on both sides of the issue. It was a special session, and it was long and arduous and demonstrations every day and very noisy. But I was very pleased to be part of it because it was a social justice issue. It was a matter of equality of opportunity and equality of marriage. And when Governor Abercrombie held the ceremony to sign the bill into law, he read this letter from a personal friend of his that said, thank you. You know, we were invisible before, and now we are seen. And you know, that was really moving. I was very impressed on that. And then, you know, the other signature issues that I was involved in were the national mortgage crisis. We got $70 million for Hawaii out of the national mortgage settlement. I worked with the AGS of all 50 states as well as the federal government to change mortgage foreclosure procedures and get a bunch of money to help people because of the problems. And then we settled the number of cases. We settled the OHA. There was a dispute with OHA that had been lingering for 30 years over back due revenues from seeded lands. I noticed on a feed this morning, there's a bill up in front of the legislature to try and figure out this going forward. But we were able to resolve a claim that had been festering for 30 years and get that done. And I thought that was important because, you know, native Hawaiians have not done as well in their own homeland as many of the other people who live here, the Caucasians, the Asians, the Japanese, the Chinese. And so there's been a sense of disenfranchisement and not doing as well. So it's important that we recognize that and help resolve some of these issues with native Hawaiians. And then I was really proud that we were able to get a conservation easement on 665 acres up at Turtle Bay to prevent hotels and houses and things like that and keep the country country. So we got a question from a viewer asking, what do you think is in the way of Ahoy being able to work something out with its cannabis industry to overcome the obstacles posed by the federal legislation and restrictions? And that's a great question and a very interesting question. You know, federal law is at odds with state law. State law allows medical marijuana here. There's a number of states that allow recreational marijuana. And we have legalized this, but because we're an island, you cannot transport, under federal law, you cannot transport marijuana over the water and you cannot do it by air. It violates federal law. And so it would be good if the legislature can enable some kind of legislation that will allow that. And then we still have to work with the federal government because it's, you know, if you're still subject to federal criminal penalties, that's not a good thing. So up in Alaska, they allow transport by airplane, but it's kind of a wink and nod kind of a thing that the feds don't ask and nobody tells. And so they do that. I'm not sure that that would occur here in Hawaii, but we need to do something to make marijuana available to people for medical needs as they want. And, you know, it's not the demon drug that would lead to a life of debauchery or, you know, worthlessness. That was the common wisdom back when you and I were in college, Chuck, but that's not the truth. So some of the major things that you were able to be instrumental in helping to resolve during your time as AG have been out there for a long time. What do you think got those over the top? You know, that's interesting. And I'm not gonna, I can't possibly take credit for these things. I got to march in the parade and actually in some ways lead the parade, but quite frankly, the issues that we resolve, the Oha settlement, the same-sex marriage, the Turtle Bay conservation easement, many people were laboring in the trenches long before I stepped in and they were helping push the ball forward. You know, people come together and they try and make change happen and you do that. One of the things that I have always thought was important was cut the deal. Okay, cut the deal. So like on the conservation thing, the conservation easement, there was a bunch of talk, it was complicated, but there was no deal and I came in and I sat down and worked with the parties and we cut a deal. We were able to cut the deal. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't everything we wanted. Nothing ever is, but you know, I've always taken the example if you read Lyndon Johnson's biographies by Robert Carroll, that Lyndon Johnson prided himself on being able to cut the deal as opposed to somebody who was speech-ifying and he had a certain disdain and contempt for Hubert Humphrey who gave great speeches but couldn't get the legislation passed and Lyndon Johnson, yeah, his speeches weren't great and a lot of people criticized him and a lot of people didn't like him but he could get the deal done. And so I think it's always, you know, politics is the art of the possible. You know, so it's always important to make the deal. Don't walk away. I'm very disappointed in some of the people nationally who think that purity of thought is better than having a deal. So I'm more of a pragmatist. So that's a great insight, David, is that the results that are sustainable and pervasive are not litigated determinations. They're negotiated determinations. What enables you, what people and circumstances made it possible for you to become a master negotiator and you're now one of poise-leading mediators using that master negotiating skill? Well, you know, that's nice of you to say that. Basically, I've been toiling in the trenches. You know, I've tried a lot of cases. I've mediated a lot of cases. I've been in a lot of settlements, conferences, and a lot of mediations. But part of the thing is, is that I've always been willing to get my hands dirty, jump down into the trench and fight it out. And quite frankly, it's that, you know, you get in there and you're a trench fighter. And once you know that and you understand what the push points are for the other side, what your own push points are, and then you try and figure out, can we cut a deal? You know, that's the whole point. And avoid all the fighting or avoid most of the fighting or some of the fighting and get a deal done. I mean, a lot of this is leverage. People are just pushing and shoving and seeing who can, you know, create leverage. And at some point, you just got to relax and try and say, okay, what's the best deal we can get? So in your book, one of the things authors can do and you do well is share stories. Good friend of ours, Peter Adler, read your book and he said, it's terrific. So here's a public endorsement of it. But in addition to that, there are lessons learned that certainly you took pains to share with people. What are some of those that your book tries to get out there and share? You know, and thanks for asking about the book. You know, writing a book is always both an exercise in vanity and a labor of love and an attempt to make sense of what happened. You know, just trying to put it all into perspective and figure out, well, what the heck happened here? And so that was a good exercise for me and I enjoyed that. I think, you know, in terms of the best advice that was given to me and the lessons learned, one of the things that I got from a US retired judge, Charles Breyer, the brother of Stephen Breyer, the Supreme Court judge. But Charles Breyer told me this story about this legendary, I want to say fixer because that back 50 years ago, that's what they were. They were fixers. They were consigliaries, but they could make things happen. And there was this legendary guy who was a confidant of Pat Brown, Governor Pat Brown of California, National Figures. And he carried a little small paper notebook in his pocket. And when people would ask him for a favor, he would write it down. And then, but then the secret was, he always tried to do something immediately. So that if somebody asked him for a favor, if they had gone out of their way to ask him for a favor, he knew that if you immediately acted on that, that and in fact, if you've got a result, if you picked up the phone, you called somebody and then you got a result right there, that person would think you were a magician. Okay. And they would be forever grateful that you had taken the time out of your day to do something for them. And it got an immediate result. And even if you didn't get an immediate result, the fact that you were willing to try was very important to them. But if you waited a day, a week, a month, even if you got a great result, the curve of gratitude goes down with time, you know, and then they, you know, and if the person had to call you up again, and say, Hey, what about my thing? You know, it just wouldn't be as good. And part of the thing is, is that, and I always like to say this when I became a GI says, well, be nice to all the people on your way up because you really hope that they'll be nice to you on the way down. And, and it's really all about the people. I mean, that's how a lot of things get done is people do things for people, for people who are their friends or people that they like, or now they won't go out of their way and we're not talking about doing things illegally and doing things immorally or unethical. But people do like more back in those days, you could do that stuff. But, but you know, people do like to, to assist people who are friendly. And so that was the that was an important piece of advice I got. And the other important piece of advice I got from was from John Radcliffe, who said, put yourself out there, just put yourself out there. People if you people are thinking about trying to serve in government or be a leader or even in an organization, just put yourself out there and volunteer, get skills, get, get experience, working a nonprofit. And, and the thing that John said was is that he ran for Congress, he went for a Congress and, and he got clobbered. He said, he said it was terrible. But when he picked himself up after after losing badly, he said, people came up to him and said, you know, I really appreciated that you were willing to speak up that you had the guts and that to go out there and try and put yourself out there. And people respected that. And his career took off, you know, and he was working in and he got a lot of positive feedback from a lot of people. John was one of the most successful union people in this state ever, and one of the most successful lobbyists in this state ever. And may he rest in peace. You know, he passed away, but he was great man. You know, and John did something that you and few others have managed to do, which is to build respect, admiration and appreciation among really diverse sectors of people. And that's a gift. I'm not sure you can teach it. But in your years in key state leadership, decision making seated the C suite table in state government, looking at where we are now, what's out there right now that most concerns you that deserves the highest priorities in your view? Yeah, you know, there's so many issues, so many critical issues on the table. It was I was thinking about this concept the other day. And there's this song from Hamilton, the musical that that I love. It's called something I forget. Anyway, the wording of the song is look around, look around how lucky we are to be alive today. And that was true, you know, back in the Revolutionary War, but it's true today. You look around, look at all the advances in technology, look at all the advances in social justice, look at all the great things that are happening that, you know, and the opportunities that people have now that they didn't have 30, 40, 50 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago. And yet, paradoxically, we also have forces of evil and darkness of Mr. Putin declaring war in Ukraine. Yeah, you have the January 6 insurrectionists trying to drag this country back into the 1800s, where they could discriminate against people of color. You have people vying for dominance and to trying to subjugate other people and to trying to deprive them of their rights. And, and, you know, it's terrible. So there's all kinds of terrible things out there, but there's all kinds of fabulous great things out there. And so there are opportunities so as far as what I think for this state, for Hawaii, I think, you know, Hawaii is a really special place. Hawaii has been very, very good to me. And Hawaii is a unique place because we, we have this culture of acceptance of, you know, mediators actually do very well here because there's this, it's a larger community culture of treating people with dignity and respect. And, and trying to be inclusive. And I think part of that comes from the native Hawaiian culture. And part of that comes from just the fact that there are all these amalgamated communities, the Chinese, the Japanese Americans who came to work on the plantations, the Filipinos who came and then settled here to have families and the fact that there's been all this intermarriage. And so people treat each other with respect in Hawaii, which is not always the case in a lot of places on the mainland. If you don't look like you're one of the majority culture. And so it's really important in my mind that Hawaii maintain and preserve that, that cultural aspect of treating people with respect. There's all kinds of problems, whether it's climate change or Red Hill or, or, you know, highways, you know, there's always going to be problems. But how we approach the problems, how we try to solve the problem so that we all live together in harmony going forward, those are, those are the important things to me. And that raises the question in these times, is that harder now than it was when we were younger? Yeah, you know, I think it's harder and easier. It's a, it's a paradox kind of a thing and sometimes harder, sometimes easier. Both. We, we face some tremendously huge problems today, tremendously huge problems that really only concerted government action and private action can solve. And hopefully we'll continue to be able to do that. That's really my hope and my wish that we'll be able to do that. You know, there's a lot of forces trying to drag us all down, trying to separate us, trying to, trying to smash that, that consensus and the idea of a shared future together. But I think there's enough people out there that they believe in it that we can persevere. Fantastic. So, David, with your decades of experience, what's your vision? Where do you see us going? What's it going to take to get there? In a way? You know, that and that's that's the $64,000 question or the $64 million question these days is $1,000 doesn't buy you as much anymore. How are we going to solve these problems? Are we going to solve climate change? I mean, there's global forces and things that happen outside of the shores of Hawaii. But the thing that, you know, you can only control what you can control, right? And, and so we're all we're going to have to adapt. We're all we don't know what's going to come. We don't know what's going to happen with climate change. I think, fortunately, war is not on our doorstep, like it is on the people of Ukraine. And, and fortunately, you know, we still have, you know, some good things going for us. Tourism is a very good engine. The military is a very good engine. Some people don't like either, but, but they really help. And so I come back to how do you approach the problems? How do you approach getting solutions that are negotiated solutions that everybody can live with and live for over the long haul over the long term, not just a zero sum game of I win today and you lose, but we both win. We both win together. That's a great response. We're out of time for today, but thanks, David, Louis, and for bringing us. If there's not an answer, there's at least a direction. If we're going to get to that vision, it's going to be together. It's going to be collaboratively. And I think you've brought out in ways that those of us who have known you for a long time can appreciate it. It has to be the Hawaiian way in the truest sense of Aloha. David, thank you for all your work, all your service, your thoughts, your insights. Thank you, folks, for joining us. Come back and see us again next time. Thank you so much, Chuck. Aloha. Pleasure.