 Do you ever get blank stares and confused faces when you try to explain what you do? Well, in this episode, you're going to learn how to turn those blank stares into a haas. Here's the guess for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Leon Hovenation. This is the service design show and this is episode 103. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the service design show. Here on this show, we empower you with the most effective skills and strategies so you can design services that win the hearts of people and business. And the guest of this episode knows exactly how to do that. Leon Hovenation is a business designer, business strategist, but he started out in the craft space of design as a visual artist, a graphic artist. In this episode, he shares his journey, his transformation and the challenges he had to overcome to actually get to the point where he is. We'll be talking about identity. We'll be talking about how to get accepted as a hybrid, somebody who's both from the design space and the business space. How do you get people to understand what it is that you actually do and the value that you bring? I think a thing we in the service design community still struggle a lot with. And by the end of this episode, if you remember one thing from this episode, it will be the power of the phrase, show me what you do. Remember that phrase. If you're looking for inspiring stories and practical advice that will help to make you a better service designer, make sure you click that subscribe button and that bell icon because we bring a new video at least once a week here on this channel. So that's it for the intro. And now let's quickly jump into the chat with Leon Hovenation. Welcome to the show, Leon. Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me here. Awesome to have you on. It's going to be a great story. This is the prototype of the new service design show format. So I'm excited to see how this turns out. Leon, for the people who don't know who you are, could you give like a brief introduction? Sure. I'm Leon Hovenation. I'm an innovation strategist. I work at the intersection of business strategy, human-centered design, technology. And in that intersection, there's a lot that happens. I spend a lot of my time doing service design, innovation strategy, the fuzzy front end, where to play, how to win, all the way down to launching new services in market that are either physical, digital and everything in between. I think we're going to talk a lot about identity so I'll leave it a little bit. We will, yeah, yeah. So this question, to give an introduction, it's already like a challenging one. We have a new section here in the show, Leon, which is a 60-second rapid fire to get to know a little bit more about you. Are you ready to do it? I have to cheat the first time. Are you ready? I'm ready, let's do it. Let's do it, let's do it. What's the thing that's always in your fridge? Almond milk. Almond milk. Which books are you reading right now? I have been endlessly picking up and putting down good strategy, bad strategy. What superpower would you like to have? Which what? Superpower. Oh, man, I am a huge science fiction, comic book, superhero fan. You can't ask me that question. If I had the pick one, I think it would be infinite knowledge. Infinite knowledge, awesome. And this one, what did you want to become when you were a kid? What did you want to become? Oh, wow. I think my earliest memory what I wanted to become when I was a kid was a Disney animator. I wanted to draw the Disney animations. Yeah, that was the earliest. Final question. And then the 60 seconds will be over. What is your first memory of service design? My first memory of service design was taking a service design course in my graduate program, which to me did not feel distinctly different than anything else I had been doing. And I was waiting to do the service blueprint and I didn't do it. And that was my first encounter of what is service design trying to define it. Cool, thanks for this introduction. I'll try to add more questions to the list for future episodes. Leon, we had a little bit of preparation for this chat and this is going to be about your journey. And let's start this journey with the destination. So where are you heading? Could you paint us a little bit? The picture of your final destination? Yeah, that's a great question, especially for me. And so far, my destination is, as we've talked about, trying to stitch and knit together all of the experiences that I've been that I've had in design and strategy, consulting the business world, the social sector, nonprofit and figure out how to be a effective design leader without losing the design along the way of becoming a leader, which is tough. And I know others are struggling with this and I'm trying to figure that out as I'm moving in that direction. So how would you say the final state looks? What is the ideal? What is the dream situation? Yeah, the dream situation is tough because I see examples or exemplars or heroes out there who might be close to it, but I haven't quite found the perfect fit for that. So I think the example is a truly design-led culture, a truly design-led organization that does all the things that we talk about design without having to substitute it for other things along the way, right? So there are great examples of design leaders who have reached the top of organizations, businesses and they sometimes just blend into tapestry. So how do we keep that unique little thread? They compromise, yeah, exactly. And you see it all the time. Take us back to the moment where this journey started. When did you get interested in this topic? When did it become relevant for you? Yeah, so way back, I started off in the world of design. I think what is sometimes unfortunate called design with a lowercase d. I think the design that we practice is designed with the uppercase d. I don't know if you've heard this. It comes from the external world trying to bucket what we do. But that is more traditional design as craft. Traditional design is connected to art, right? Visual communication, drawing, making. And I discovered early on that I was a bit of a hybrid person that I had more to bring to the table than just my craft or being a hired gun who could draw really well. And it's been a blessing and a sin since I was little that I could draw really well, better than most. If you put me in any room, I was always the best drawer. And it was just something I did, I enjoyed. It wasn't a thing to showcase. It also wasn't a tool to professionalize, right? I just enjoyed doing it. And I think as we've talked about, people would always say, oh, but you're also so smart. And it made me think are people who are creative, not smart in your mind, those tensions are interesting. And I think I began to discover that I could do more than just provide my craft and provide my thinking. And so hence, design thinking at another term, which I'm not particularly fond of, that sometimes I get bucketed under. So I decided I'd rather lend my thinking than my output as a crafter tool. Yeah, or at least both would be nice, I guess, right? Yeah. So what do you feel is at stake here? Why is this important to you? Why is this important is identity is a big deal. I think that's the theme. And being hybrid is a big deal. So a little bit personal about me. I'm really a hybrid person in that I do this design thing. I also do this business strategy thing. I've got depth and credibility in both. But as a person, I'm a hybrid person, right? People always ask, oh, your name, where are you from? What's your background? You know, my mother is Cuban. She was born in Cuba, moved to the US and she was a little girl. My dad is Armenian, so I have that name. So I'm this hybrid person who has these two distinct backgrounds. And then people want to ask me about either. I'm like, you know, I'm both, but I'm either. I'm something new and it's tough, it's tough. And I feel the same is an inflection point with design. You know, design is not the things that have come before. When I meet people who have no idea what I do, they say, oh, so you like interior design? You go, no, no, no, it's not that. And then you're in the business world, they take another presumption. So I have to craft a new identity and others I think are like me in that space. Yeah, that's always challenging. Like if you're defining a new category rather than, I don't know, sort of describing an old category with a different twist. It, that's like, I feel that that's the point you're making. It's like, it's not a different old category with a new twist, but by blending two things together it becomes something new. And then you have to, there's a lot of explanation to do. Exactly. And I find that I function for a long time as a business designer and strategist. That's yet another fuzzy territory that we could possibly talk about. But I have found when I'm doing that work with strategy, with clients and my coworkers, I find the tools that I use and the thinking that I use is not distinctly different from traditional strategies. Where to play, how to win, right? That kind of approach and tools they would use, we just use it in a slightly different way, a more effective way that makes them go, oh, wow. Like two questions here. Why do you feel that we aren't in this situation yet that you described where we have fully designed that organizations without compromise? Like what are the things, first could you describe the gap between that situation and right now and what is the big struggle for us? The big struggle is a lot of it is cultural. So, and there are some examples of design-led organizations that I think are a few that are making an impact like Airbnb, right? And this is a great company that I feel strongly about because it arose from my graduate, sorry, my undergrad. There was a couple of Rhode Island School of Design grads who went out there and maintained their ethos all the way up. Even in this COVID time, they had to release a bunch of people and I don't know if you noticed that the CEO, Brian Chesky, wrote a very heartfelt empathetic message that has resonated throughout the business community saying this is what empathy looks like. So we as designers in the business world are synonymous with empathy and maintaining that empathy to answer your question is hard when you get to the top of that system because it's business and business is not always empathetic, right? That's not the heritage of business. That's not the way we think about business. Exactly and I think we, exactly. And I think maintaining that empathy like you might see an Airbnb in other companies is rare and doesn't happen often because of the constraints and pressures. It's cultural is the answer. There are a lot of pressures there with people who think differently and it's hard to shift that. Yeah, mental models, things that have become ingrained in education, in news, right? That's, I'm curious. Yeah, you have so much experience and you've worked with so many people. You're on a mission, you're on a journey to get to that destination but if you look back at the years and the road that you've traveled before, what were some of the challenges that you had to overcome or that you had to overcome that helped you to close this gap a little bit? Yeah, so the challenges are when you make these leaps over these gaps and chasms in your life when you're shifting from one thing to the next. It can be a career level. It can be a discipline level. It can be within design. So we know a lot of people who start off as an industrial designer. I see a lot in your show they become a service designer. A graphic designer becomes this. In my case, I started off on the visual communication side as an illustrator, right? So my pedigree was going down storyboarding and comic books and they found out- That was your career path, the destined career path. Early on, early on, yeah. And then people keep telling me how important storytelling is in business. I said, I've been telling, that's my job as a storyteller but how do you not just become the storyteller? So I find the gap is bringing forward your skill, what makes you useful in that situation to work with others? But not getting pigeonholed in their mind by being able to do that one thing. And also not over-explaining. I'm guilty of over-explaining and keeping it simple is a big deal. And I think you demonstrate more with actions and with words sometimes. And you can tell them you can do this other thing but often just doing it. And they say, wow, can you show me how to do that? Then you're on the path of learning. And learning is the path of understanding and empathy. And empathy is the part of fabric of culture. So to dig into this point, you said it's about showing, not over-explaining at the start. Any examples or stories that you think were this, yeah, were this sort of demonstrated or materialized in your own practice? Yeah. So I was, as a business designer in my previous firm, so currently I'm an innovation strategist with Dublin, which has a tremendous heritage and innovation of obviously with the 10 types and whatnot. But before that, I was at Fjord and got to work with really amazing people including Robert Bow, who you've had on this show. And the space of business design, even in there was a bit murky. People would say, so even in the group we were at, what is business design? So I had to demonstrate what was business design and it meant having to roll up my sleeves and explain with models and examples and on projects demonstrate, this is how you frame the value. This is how you create a measurement strategy and bringing others in. So they say, oh, wow, so it's like this. You say yes, and then you step back and they get it, the client likes it and then it's happening. So it's literally having to sit down with people and walk them through it. Any examples of aha moments that happened both for you and the people you were explaining to? Because I guess you also must have had some enlightened moments that you were like, oh, if I show them this or if I explain it in that way, then it suddenly clicks. So I had piloted a workshop in my last firm, which was a business design 101 and it was an immersive half-day experience to show them what does it really, really do. And I think it was having to turn these things into tangible experiences. So people get very freaked out if you take them outside their swim lane. Please forgive the pun. If they haven't done service design, they're very confused. What is a blueprint? How do you make it happen? If they're service designers, they're very confused. What are you doing as a business designer? How does this work with us? So I think my experience in these sort of things like in a workshop is just make it tangible and real. So if we have a case study and it's this company and they wanna be this thing, what would you be doing as a service designer? They would explain and say, okay, so as a business designer, we're doing a very similar thing. We're working with you. We do this thing and we bring them over and we show how that connects the dots. I think the aha moment was turning it into more of a narrative and just getting away from the titles, right? It's no longer about the thing. It's just here's something you should be doing as well with me, but we could be doing it together. So it's from what I hear you're saying, it's grabbing a generic concept or a phrase and then actually giving it meaning. And you use the word narrative, building a story around it. It's a story that happens in somebody's head, right? Innovation, designer, it can mean anything, but let's build a shared understanding of what it is and is that how it worked for you? Very often, yes. What is the story that we're sharing around this that people can tell? And then it comes back around and you say, that sounds like the story I'd like to hear about what we're doing, let's say in business design. So how on projects, if we're working together and we're working to client, can we be the voice of the business in all the things we're doing, but be relentlessly human-centered? What does that look like? And they say, oh, okay, so you're part of what we're doing, absolutely. And then we go in and then we start giving the stories and examples. It's kind of like writing a value prop. Is it? Yeah. Why do you feel the way? So, that's a great example. Value propositions are often these tools of business that, well, let's let the business people craft them. But all we're doing is crafting a story. Why are we doing this? Who are the people that we'd like to work with? What value are we giving with them? And if we're doing this right, co-creating with them, how are we doing it? What, that's it. Yeah, which problems are we solving? Identify, maybe identifying the problem first and then pointing out that that's an area of expertise where people like you, I, us, collaborate to create solutions, something like that. You inspired me actually to remember a big part of what we would do if you're an innovation space or a strategist. I think services owners should be doing this who are in the strategic end is reframing the problem, right? An exciting part of what we do all the time. In certain organizations that might just be the domain of business design or an innovation strategist or a service strategist, right? That's a new title that differentiates from service design. Reframing the problem is exciting and it's instead of just diving into mapping it out, first let's flip the orthodoxy, right? If the problem is people are having a hard time getting access to food or meals, well, how do we flip that? How do we get the meals to come to them? Simple and it's like, well, okay, I haven't been thinking about that. Step one, and then what's the story around that? Step two, then step three, we can get in all the other stuff. Sure. If we go back to your journey and the quest for getting this new hybrid identity accepted as something unique and valuable. Any other challenges, stories that come to your mind, challenges that you had to overcome? How did you do it? Yeah, so from the context of professional life, it's you being associated with the front end of the problem and implementation are two separate identities. Service design is supposed to be this promise that bridges it, very difficult to have that identity to say I can reframe your problem, but I can also deliver something real and in market. And those two groups, whether it's in design, whether it's in business, whether it's in technology are usually very far apart and trying to bring them together has been a lot of talk about it. That's also becomes a cultural problem, like we said at the beginning, but is a very, very difficult thing to do. And once again, I come from a background of making things. I know how to make things and I have made things, both a little illustration or an entire digital service. You can also think about the problem. And do you, is one of the two ways harder? Like, is it harder to get accepted as a strategist coming from a craft background or is it harder to get accepted as somebody who's also doing implementation when you're seen as the strategy guide, girl? So as someone who does both and has done both, I think the reframe of your question is it's not, it's not harder to get accepted in. It's hard to get out, if that makes sense. So I have found, yeah, which of these two? Yeah, which of these two is harder? I honestly think that they are both equally hard in different ways. And I know it's a nuanced question because I think life is less about absolutes but more of shades of gray. Of course. But I think if you asked me in my experience, I actually believe, I used to think it was harder to move from the craft side, the delivery side, implementation side to the strategy side. And now that I'm firmly on the strategy side currently, I have found people raise an eyebrow and say, yeah, but can you actually make things real? And you go, oh God, it's back to the beginning, right? If you're a craft person who draws, what business do you have being in business? Once you get in business. So I think they both have their challenges but I would say from my point of view, right now shifting back to delivery of an implementation and creation right now for me feels a bit harder because people have their domains and they want to know they can trust you to make something. And have you been in a project or a situation where this was actually happening where a client was pushing you back on this? And if so, what did you do? Yes, I have. And the best thing to do, I think in those circumstances is to not over explain, keep it simple. And if you have that experience, walk them through what it looks like. And this is where collaboration and co-creation is so crucially important. I don't think it's always important for you to claim your identity at all times. So if you have another person in there who does that, then let them step up to bat and take that hit. Go ahead. Yeah, like how? The second person, what would they do? So working with people who are on the delivery side who create the digital technology, they're creative technologists, let's say, right? And for all intents and purposes, the only thing that the client sees in the moment is that title, they don't know them. They don't know what your history, I could have been that person if brought in at that moment, right? But you bring them in and you let them support the proposition and say, yeah, this can get built. First, let me open up my credentials. Let me show you my weapons. And they're like, oh, those are impressive weapons. Great, and then you send them out. And then I think as the conversation evolves, the trust gets there, they also see you as part of that journey. So you might need them to open the door for you. Yeah, so it is splitting out the roles into different characters is one of these, it's not even a strategy, it's really a tactical thing. And then maybe what at some point happens is that a client starts to see you as a team rather than individuals and then as a team who can do both strategy and delivery. Is that something that happens? Yes. Is that the transition? That is a transition. It's also a really great embodiment, I think of what I am tackling is because when you're being a design leader means really removing yourself from being siloed as part of these groups, you have to be able to be seen as all. And you have to be able to communicate with all of these groups and these individuals. So you have to bring the trust, the credibility, we also need to in yourself, except you know what, I can be all these things, but none of them. So how do I maintain that integrity and pave the way forward? So it is the teamwork and it's co-creation. It's the ability for, if not one person's gonna do this. Have you seen examples where this sort of gigantically failed? Where, I don't know, circumstances just prevented you from sort of putting forward this new hybrid identity? Yeah, so some circumstances around that is number one, the credibility issue. People wanna see certain things in your bulleted resume or whatever is ahead of you that qualifies you for that thing. And if you don't have that thing, if you can't demonstrate it, you're not gonna be able to do it. So that's on a personal level. I would say on sort of a team level, it breaks down when you, being a hybrid is great. You know, the famous T-shaped person, right? IDEO gave us this thing that we talked about for a long time. It works well, but there are certain areas that you don't have expertise as well. And I think it's in that moment that you kind of shut up and you step back. Because I think if you do a lot of things, you also are in danger of feeling you could do everything. And you can't. And you go ahead. Yeah, well, yeah, I'm just curious if this is something really practical that people can actually do. And the thing is making a list of things where you're not good at. And just also stating that like, these are the challenges I can help you with, but don't call me for these challenges. Or I don't know, have a two by two matrix where you plot yourself in a one area and just say, okay, I'm really good at this, but these areas I need to collaborate with someone just to show that you know what the limitations are of your own skillset. Question one. A SWOT analysis, a two by two. I make those every day, unfortunately. But I actually think that's smart. And I think you can create trajectories on that because there are things even within your realm you don't do. So for example, I have certain limitations to my quant capability, either bringing in analyzing data or the depth of which I can craft a business case. Business models all day. Business case, certain degree, but I'm not a finance guy. So there comes a point where I should really say, who is another hybrid like me who actually comes from a finance background and we can connect and that becomes, so there comes a point where I'll set up the Excel, do something, but you know, I'm visually oriented. So I see numbers, but I don't calculate them in my head as natural or intuitively as them. So that's a moment. And do I wanna become native with that? Well, I have to put time into it. So where is it worth stretching down and going in that other direction? If you look back on your journey so far, is there anything, any piece of advice that you give could give people with, what can we do on a maybe even daily practice that would help us to accelerate the path towards this ideal destination? Something small, daily basis, a muscle that we can flex? So I think first, having a sense of what is the identity you're drifting towards. In my case, I look towards design leaders who are doing a similar thing and I try to pull that back, right? So instead of trying to push our current reality into the future, try to pull the future back into our current reality and say, well, what are the ingredients in that? That's a framework into itself. So for me- Reverse engineering, yeah. Right, back casting, right. What does it look like if I bring it to here? And I know we do this with our teams, we do it with our clients, we do it with our work, but you can do this with yourself and there's a self-improvement aspect to it. So I think there are little things. In my case, it's having to learn the balance between being these things that I've developed excellence in and also being a broader thing to move forward in that leadership side. But I would say, for example, if you are a service designer who's more interested in understanding the backend of the systems that you're designing because you work with developers who do a certain magic at a certain point because it's a black box because you don't code, I think what happens is you can do daily rituals to get around it. I have found if you ask people, show me what you do, they will sit with you for an hour and show you what you do. And you find tutorials and you do this every day. And what you find is that after a year, people start, you start demonstrating, they say, hey, can you code that for me? And you say, sure. And you say, when did I become that person? Sure, yeah. And sometimes it doesn't require a degree or formality, it requires just connecting to your network and doing the exercise. And I like that question, show me what you do because you can also reflect it on yourself. Like imagine, stand in front of a mirror and somebody asking you this question, show me what you do. What would you show? What would it be? And maybe like doing it as a mantra every day in and out, you sort of start to develop your narrative about what can you actually show, tell, let them experience about who you are. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I get a lot of requests to connect, to talk about, talk to me about what innovation is or services are. And it could be in my network, it can be from my friends, it's LinkedIn. It doesn't happen as much that I decided to reach out as well. And so it does work both ways. I think that's powerful because it lets it in. Just sort of really inspired me with this question, show me what you do. Because if you ask this question to other people, you'll see how they, what they show you and how they show you things, where they show you, what they show you. They will also inspire you to think about ways you can communicate your identity. Really, I really liked it. And you know what happened when I've done that, which has always made me laugh. And it's the aha moment. When someone says, when you ask someone to say, show me what you do, and they explain it, and you realize, oh, we're doing the same thing. It's just the name is different. And that gets back to the core of what we're talking about. It's like, oh my God, like we're doing 80% the same thing, except there's a name and label on top of it. And it's like, you know, it's the service design problem. When you work with a service designer and innovator, and they say, well, what do you do all day? And you realize you use the same methods, use the same techniques, you read the same books, you follow the same thought leaders, you read the same stuff. And it's like, oh, you've watched Mark's show too? And then you realize you're getting the same inputs. That's a moment. And to me, that's an aha moment back to one of the first questions you asked, is that the differences aren't as stark as they seem externally. We have to ask and go in to see. Yeah, you have to be curious to actually go beyond the titles. And maybe we need to find ways to make other people curious to go beyond the titles. Taking this last 30 minutes into account, what would you say is the moral of your story? The moral is you can only be reflective to a point, but don't waste time and don't be afraid to ask and keep it simple. I have found, for me, because I'm a bit of a thinker and I love to explore ideas and talk it out, that you can actually get lost with others and in your own head. Just keep it simple. If you go to people and say, hey, I come from this background, I wanna learn what you do in the listening and in the talking and in the connections, you'll find those boundaries. So I would say, don't waste time. Don't feel constrained by your current identity or the world that you live in. If you say you want to do this other thing, just say you'll do it. Go do it. And you'd be surprised. Look at the people who are experts in their field and you look backwards at their career. Some of them, you wonder how they even got there. It's because they've told people after a certain point, I'm an expert and then they demonstrate it and then they prove it and then they're an expert. So it begins somewhere, just do it and keep it simple and just run in that direction. And in your own practice in the last years, what is the thing that you could have kept simpler? Yeah, explanations, interpretations of things and goals. Goals with myself, goals with the teams I'm leading, goals with the clients, both mine or theirs, you'll find that your clients and teams will tell you exactly what they want at the beginning. And all you have to do is take it in and either reframe it with them or put it back out and the same with myself. This is exactly what I'm doing. There's a tendency to chase the horizon. That's a beautiful notion, but you'll keep running forever. So sometimes you have to put something down and say, that is my object I'm gonna run to. And that object is this. And just trust that the next object will be as valuable. You don't have to plan 10 years ahead, right? Right, so it's great to look 10 years ahead and say, who do I wanna be? But know that you're looking at direction but you're not paving the road. It's a compass, yeah, not a star. Yeah, right. And it's the same reason why companies don't make five-year, 10-year road maps anymore because you don't know exactly what's around the corner. Things are moving too fast. So just be adaptable, be flexible and just put that marker down. Is there a question that we haven't yet addressed that you feel we should have asked here? Yeah, when are we gonna stop using the word design, perhaps? This is a big one to me because I've noticed a lot of big companies have put an influx of design thinking into their strategy methods. And then I think what happens, you realize that they're basically the same thing at their core, just with a different mindset. So when does design get relabeled or renamed or reappropriated? Or when does business become design? When do these other things become design? That word is a tough one. And I found it's a very, minute you walk to someone you don't know and they say, what do you do? And you just say design that you are, you could easily just describe the last thing you did in action and result. And they say, that's great. Don't say the word design. And if you put the word design, really always. So I think the challenge is someone, someone should take that word back and or put it in its new context. That's a tough one. I hope that we're all adding to, changing the context around design at least. That's what I try to do. And therefore, a new perspective on design and the more realistic perspective on design, I guess. Yeah, you know, if design at its core is about solving problems or looking at problems differently, I think we're all doing the right thing. Hopefully, I think maybe 10 years from now, if we could actually fold that future back, we would be surprised at how the word design is being used and who's using it. Any recommended reading, any recommended videos for people who wanna dive into this topic? Mm-hmm. So I, in terms of design and strategy, I've actually really enjoyed that book that I've been trying to get through, Good Design, Good Strategy, Bad Strategy. It's a great one. Have you heard of it? No. In reading that book, I kept thinking the entire time, this is a book geared to the discipline of strategy. And all I kept thinking is this is design. This is what I do. The word design is used a billion times every chapter. I mean, they're talking about how broad strategies have been implemented, where the discipline comes from, who's using it, how you connect it to actually creating things in the real world, not just thinking about the problem. So I would recommend that as a good starting place to connect to all the other volumes of design books you may have. Sort of to start wrapping this episode up, I feel like sometimes we need a Trojan horse and strategy might be a Trojan horse to get people to understand design easier, right? To lower the threshold, to lower resistance, and then to work your magic from inside rather than having to convince people. Yes, yeah. I agree. If people wanna continue this conversation with you, what's the best way to get in touch? Many ways, so you can reach out to me via email. Also, I run a group in Chicago called the Chicago Business Designers, where we actually address these problems. It's a few hundred strong now. We have a lot of great programming and interviews. Robert Bow, as I mentioned, is part of this group, including others, so we bring in diverse perspectives. I would reach out to that group. We would love to hear you from you. Also, the Chicago Business Designers starts in Chicago, but it doesn't have to just be there. And I think the definitions that we're talking about are being debated there. So I would reach out to that group and we can get a link to that. We've got a Slack group, of course. We've got a mailing list. Everything will be in the show notes. Yep, absolutely. And also, we're doing online programming like this. So we're shifting, of course, to hosting our stuff online. Yes, of course. We'd love to see you. I'll try to add all the links over there. Leon, thanks for sharing your journey, your experience, your challenges. Really enjoyed. The thing I'll remember from this episode is show me what you do. That question is super powerful. So yeah, thanks for bringing it up. Absolutely. And it was great talking with you. I look forward to seeing your upcoming episodes as well. This show is a great resource, by the way. So I checked this routinely just to keep my thinking sharp. I'll add that to my testimonial list. Great. Thanks, Leon. If you're a regular listener of the show, you might have noticed that this is a different form than we did in the previous 102 episodes. Let me know what you think. What did you get out of this episode? What is your main takeaway? Leave a comment down below. Or just send me a message on LinkedIn. And if you found Leon's story inspiring and think that somebody else needs to hear it, grab the link and share this episode with them. That way, you'll help that other person and you'll help to grow the service design show family, which helps me to invite more inspiring guests for you like Leon. And if you wanna continue hearing stories about skills and strategies that help you to design services that win the hearts of people and business, make sure you check out this video because we're going to continue over there.