 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you're hailing from welcome to another edition of in the clouds here on open shift TV I am Chris short the host of most shows. I'm here on open shift TV Also the executive producer. I am joined today by the one and only Cornelia Davis of we've works Cornelia How are you today? I am doing quite well. Thank you Chris. How are you? I am I am doing quite well as well I'm figuring out thermodynamics here in my tiny little office this morning. So yeah It's a warm day here in Michigan. So I can't complain. Yeah, we had snow yesterday. Oh fun I'm sitting in central, Oregon, and I'm looking outside and there's like Nickel-sized snowflakes, you know that like spring that spring where it's it's just Like barely barely cold enough to for snow and so as the flakes fall They kind of start to stick together and you end up with these huge snowflakes. Yeah I was like, come on mama earth. It's it's May Well, I will say it did snow here the first week of May like yeah enough to cover the ground here in Michigan. Yeah So so we are friends obviously we have an interaction outside of work Would you like to tell folks what you do at we've works? Absolutely. So thanks so much for having me on today. It's always a pleasure. I am the CTO at we've works I've been here for about a year and a half And prior to that I was at Pivotal and so I've spent about the last 10 years working on platforms working on Depops platforms really application developer platforms and I kind of hesitate a little bit to say application developer platforms because while We really are Motivated to serve the application developer so that they can release more frequently and get value out to customers more easily and But with security and compliance and all of that stuff It's as much of an operational role as it is kind of a pure development role So that's why I typically like to say we serve the application teams not the developer And so I've been working in in application developer platforms for about 10 years. So yeah That's awesome. Well, thank you for joining us today. Really appreciate it today We're gonna be talking about the business value of get ops, right? There's a lot of buzzer in the term get ops there's a lot of You know fud to as well with that buzz right like like anything in tech it's the inevitable But before we dive into that I have a very important question for you It's something we ask everybody that joins us including CMAC. Thank you for tuning in. I'm sure you were in a meeting and thank you Let so see a Mac please introduce yourself for everybody if you don't mind Hello, everyone apologies for being late a little bit. It's exactly like I said was stuck in a meeting was trying to drop off My name is CMAC. I'm a product manager at Red Hat's part of the cloud platforms team I'll look after everything CI CD on open shift that includes things like Argo Argo CD in the get-off space Openshift pipelines and Tecton within the like CI ecosystem and other related bits Awesome. Thank you for joining us. So here I'll ask the question of both of you and we can discuss There's no wrong answer here Cake or pie is cheesecake a cake or a pie? What do you think? Do you see a Mac do you even eat cheesecake for that matter right like I feel like there might be some dietary restrictions maybe for Okay, so so I am gonna pull a James T. Kirk here and say there is no or There is always there is always a way out So first of all, why would you have to choose? Because cheesecake is so delightful. It is definitely one of my faves and I am a cook and so I can tell you that I have made cheesecakes that have flour in them Mm-hmm, and I have made cheesecakes without flour and so one You know one you might say is a little closer to cake when you might say is a little closer to pie But honestly, I don't believe in an or world Strict or world, so I'm gonna say it's and nice. It's cake and pie. I like that a lot. See I'm like, how about you? Well, I think like she gave the most politically correct answer I don't know how to how to top that but To me cheesecake is a is a is a postmodern pie, you know, okay, you it's it's a it's an artistic pie done. Well But regardless I love cheesecakes passion fruit cheesecake is definitely my favorite Yeah, that's a good one Wouldn't it Yeah, I've I've done guava. I've also done kiwi. Oh, yeah. Wow. Oh good. Mm-hmm. Okay. Good to know I got stuff up my cheesecake game So Cornelia, let's start with you. I'm asking you specifically because we've worked actually We've worked coined the phrase get ops. What was the genesis, right? Like how did we get to where we are today? Yeah, so so the the Like many other kind of open source tools and I'll talk a little bit about how we we what that journey was It started with us doing our own work So we've works wasn't a company that started out as the get ops company. It's been around for quite a number of years It kind of started out as network Networking for container networking and then it moved into kind of you know more squarely into the Kubernetes space and started Dealing with observability. So we had a SaaS offering that we call we've cloud which offered essentially Prometheus as a service so you could register your cluster and And then you could go and get dashboards and all of that stuff and see what was going on when your Kubernetes clusters And we're running that SaaS service and we had an outage and We were able to it like a complete outage like total meltdown. That's never and we were But the happy story is that we were able to bring the the entire system back up online in like 45 minutes Wow, okay. Yeah, the whole thing the whole SaaS system top to bottom and our CEO Alexis Richardson who actually coined the term get ops said How did you do that? And the engineers the SREs Described that what they had done in the whole system was built on Kubernetes and and those principles that They said well, we have everything we have all of our declarative configurations stored in a get repository And all we needed to do was we needed to point, you know, a new infrastructure You know blank infrastructure to the get repositories and all of our automation is convergent automation So all we needed to do was point to a get repository and the automation would say got it from here Thanks, and it would re re-establish the system And so here was something that we had used as an internal practice kind of like, you know, Google using Borg and then open source in Kubernetes and That was an aha moment where we said this would likely be valuable to a lot of other people What is the tooling that supports these practices that we just did and that was the the genesis of creating the flux Open-source project which provides some set of that convergent automation Not all of it, but some set of that convergent automation It basically handles delivering things from github into your Etsy D and kubernetes That's to a large extent what what flux is focused on. So that's the genesis That's pretty crazy and also a very common pattern too at the same time, but like the story of hey, everything's down and Just blow it away You know, that's amazing Absolutely amazing The and here we go We have some folks on the line here Satjam and so forth. So if feel free to ask questions folks if you have them about, you know, get ops and how to implement it and so forth on How does get ops differ from that traditional or other CI CD models in in y'all's minds, right like get ups takes things a different route Yeah, so I'm happy to jump in again as well. So I think the first thing that I would say is that I I'm not a big fan of CI CD as one word and I'm not suggesting that you used it as one word He very likely used it as too, but CI is something that we as an industry have have really kind of mastered We've been working on it for better. No 15 20 years or something like that The tooling has matured a lot the understanding of the practices have matured a lot And so we we've been doing CI and then we kind of extended that a bit and said, okay Well, we'll extend that CI out to delivery And so that's why we often hear CI CD is because CD is kind of it really it is Representative of the way that a lot of folks do it is they kind of tack on CD is the last step in CI What we do with get ops is actually we start With CD we start with the continuous delivery. We're not trying to disrupt those mature CI processes But we start with CD But we take it further than CD So I like to say that get ops is continuous delivery. So CD and co continuous operations So get ops remember it's get ops. It's not get delivery. It's get ops And so it's all about linking what you're doing in good in using get as the interface Not for delivery, but using get as the interface for operations. So we want to link all the way out to Hey, this thing has deployed How is it working? Is there are there any adjustments that need to be made etc etc? So so that's that's I think one of the the first fundamental differences is that we see get ops as CD and then beyond And then I already hinted at some other things which is Uh convergence so we are pretty adamant that Get ops is modern cloud native operations And the only way that you're going to be able to do that is if you have a diventially consistent system And that your automation is built in such a way that it's convergent And I think we'll talk a lot a lot more about what that means as we go along But I want to give C. I'm back a chance to go ahead take a step in as well That's pieces exactly I wanted to say like that that piece is extremely important because like one of some of the comments that I get When I talk to like customers and unfortunately not much conferences to go these days to get connected with the community in better ways but In a conversation that come up is that well, this is We have we always have had our stuff in get so this this is nothing new or infrastructure as code is really Is one of the dev ops principle that has been around for a long time So it's like Why do you treat get ops as as a new new thing? But that that's exactly where This flavor of ci cd that we're talking about is is is different from how traditionally People have been using git and declarative conflicts and infrastructure as code that is is not truly sufficient that we have declared everything in any git repo and Push that to a certain environment forget about it That's really the main differentiator of what we talk about git ops compared to just using git and declarative config and isc is that The work is not done By fire and forget that you're constantly in this loop of monitoring the state of their application The goal is that application keeps running and it's in the state that you You expect that not just application like this is something that I sometimes struggle with that git ops quite often becomes reduced to Just being a part of the ci cd flow or application delivery But it's really a way of operation right it it applies to specifically kubernetes operation a lot and in my experience a major a great majority of teams organizations that Start adopting git ops practices. They first actually do it for cluster Operations cluster configurations rather than delivering application. It's the platform owners That start with it and then when when they feel comfortable using that and see the value They start thinking of how could I offer this to my Def teams now app teams that to use the same workflow for for the application So that that monitoring declare that continuous operation that currently I was just talking about in my mind That's really a huge differentiator compared to yes. These are the practices that exist but the reason that the collection of these practices have have a new name is that It's a different angle perspective in in the way that these practices are used together with an extension of The way that we used to work. So it's so that's really a core of it for me at least That's awesome so it's it is kind of a paradigm shift, right like you have to think of things as Well, no wait. Don't touch it. It'll fix itself, right like right that is something that people like you get a page and you just kind of Wait until reconciliation happens, right? Like you don't necessarily have to engage the system Other than to make sure the system is doing what it's supposed to do Yeah, absolutely. This is this is actually a little like funny anecdote that this before this like this mind shift something comes as a funny moment to a lot of the teams and and and customers that Like you need to get to this understanding of I'm not supposed to Manually doing anything on the cluster anymore. So this is not this doesn't come naturally and It happens often with teams are starting that they do something that they see it doesn't It doesn't work like they they applies they do this They make this change on the cluster, but the change is not there Like they feel there's a box somewhere in an open shift or On the cli or something something is wrong. I I did this but it's not there. I do it again It's not there. So this this mindset of like you're There's someone in the middle that makes sure that There is no one manipulating in the middle unless that thing is in in the git repos, right? So that that mindset definitely something that is new and even for teams that are actually actively Like adopting these practices. It does take a little bit of time to come to this mindset of Yes, I I'm not supposed to touch the cluster directly Yeah, and you know, I used a phrase earlier that I'm going to keep re-emphasizing which is Git is the interface for operations. It's not just the place that we store our declarative infrastructures code or anything like that. It is in fact the interface for operations So chris if we go back to the scenario, you just painted Something's gone wrong. I get the pager and I'm tempted to I want to go in and fix it Well, what is your interface for operations? Well, let's get So what are you going to do in git? well Actually the declarative configuration for how I want my system to look it's still there There's nothing for me to do in git. It's it's already there And so it does it does put onus on the right kind of automation So it's that convergent automation In order to allow you to make git be the interface for operations because you were just changing I mean just because something went down doesn't mean you need to change your declarative configuration Actually, my declarative configuration was right. I just need my automation to run again Exactly, you just want that reconciliation loop to reoccur and put things back in its state Yeah, but you know known good state Exactly, but but i'm going to take your scenario and i'm going to extend it just slightly so you get a page Something goes wrong and and you investigate and you actually find that my application which is running an aws us west one Is down because us west one is down And so you you could wait for a while and it won't come back And so if your operations operational, you know, your runbook now says well if one region goes down Point to a different region What is your your operational task now you've been paged your operational task is what well remember Git is the interface for operations. What's my operational task? I'm going to go into github and I'm going to say Oh, yeah, I was running in us west one. I now want to run in us east two So you make a change in git that says actually I want to run this in us east two And then the convergent automation says oh Oh, okay, you don't want to be in west one anymore. You want to go on east two great got it Take it from here and and then so it's that scenario of you know disaster recovery is one of those huge benefits of github Mm-hmm That right there is like a selling point for me, right? Like right I can do dr Just by changing, you know east to west, right? Yep, you know vice versa That's pretty powerful stuff like and the next Question I have is like what makes get ups a better practice and I say practice intentionally But that is right there one of those reasons why It all it takes is just one commit and your application your application and infrastructure is getting deployed elsewhere Off it goes So sorry for the spamming and chat. I'm we're hammering that out folks. So apologies there What is like How does an org start is get up journey and I say that because You know, there's lots of different ways to slice this What are the things they have to have in place to get up and running? see a mac do you think Or sorry cornelia either one either one either one I was giving making sure that I wasn't always the first one to go but I'll I'll go again so um So we've been talking a lot about this convergent This this convergence this concept of convergence and how central it is to get ops And so my recommendation to people who are starting and this doesn't it doesn't preclude just about anybody because I think we found that 90 percent of all enterprises are already Somewhere on their kubernetes journey Is because convergent Because the mechanisms for convergent automation are an inherent part of kubernetes That is a great place to start now see a mac is right that we do see people who are You know dealing with their clusters um adopting get ops as well, but for somebody who Really, I mean delivering value to your end customer So enabling those app teams kind of the platform teams that the platform that the developers that are using the platform Is a really great place to start because they are likely already They've already got their yaml that is their declarative configuration They've probably created some scripts to apply that yaml Or they might be applying that yaml from within the ci system, for example um, or they're doing a kubectl apply and so linking together that Now taking that declarative configuration that they already have and now using get ops practices to manage it in a get repository To manage that, you know your folder structure to decide who your axis What's the axis control that you're going to layer around it? Who are the people? What are the kind of approval cycles that you're going to put into get? Layering all of that around this declarative configuration and then adding a You know a convergent Delivery mechanism like flux or argo cd to link that get repository over into the kubernetes cluster Is a really there's very little that you have to do you basically have to start source code controlling Your yaml configurations and installing some a utility or two And then you can start to get some practice at get ops So I think that that is a really great place to start is with kubernetes based workloads because you already have several of the ingredients in place right I do I do agree with that. I think like the answer is a little bit This is one of those like it depends questions as well that there are There are some factors also to to consider on on the organizations maturity or the need for for control I think a hundred percent agree with cornelia that the app teams from Uh the declarative aspect, they are much more ready often than and platform operation teams are because if you are on kubernetes, you have already gone through This mindset shift or have to really deal with everything declarative. So you're you're past that burden Um on on the platform operations teams. They still like their clicky clicky interfaces, right? Right they there are still like huge law for python scripts and batch scripts and there are different types of scripts or even Using declarative tools in a non declarative manner when it comes to ansible and then pop it and things like that so there is there is there's there's a lot of What tendencies to that way you're working Which is which makes it more difficult to start with get up because you really have to read you all of that and Figure out a way to that you can declare these kind of things From a different perspective, I think it's easier for So they speak this is where it becomes very specific to an organization of what they need right and from multi tenancy perspective Platform ops teams haven't have less concerns because they often own the clusters and they don't need to care much about Are we authorized to make this changes through git who is going to approve it? They are the ones approving it, you know, they are the one owning it. So they have Less of a concern on access control and how they have to fit that into the git ops model Does do they have to rely on the git provider access model or Can they how should the git repo structure look like if they want to reconcile the app teams with The cluster config and things like that. So there are other questions become come into the picture so Depending on which side of this is stronger for a particular organization I think they might Like be more inclined to in one direction or other right if if a platform team has been extremely imperative Like doesn't matter. They don't have to think about a multi tenancy It becomes a huge hurdle for them to be able to get on the Get on this workflow But on the other hand if they have been on a kubernetes straw or they have been already like thinking themselves even declaratively It becomes much simpler because they have less of a hurdle on the multi tenancy part Or maybe there now we are seeing this is a I think actually this is one of the drivers actually to be honest that git ops is Taking a lot more traction over the last year because git ops is again It's not like a new cornelo talk about this that the thing if you work coin coin the word even a couple of years back It's nothing that has just recently raised But I see a lot of attention on it just recently and I My own interpretation of this is that this has to do also with the maturity of most organizations that are operating kubernetes They they are having more and more of it getting more comfortable with it So they are they are coming to the day two challenges of Having kubernetes is that they they weren't aware of these challenges yet three years ago four years ago in the beginning of their their journey so They're they're there are organizations that get to a level that they are giving a cluster to each application team And and for those ones the model a cornelo described fits perfectly because there is no multi tenancy concern at all I am the owner of this cluster and I have everything declaratively It's a really low barrier to to start with a git ops process Combined with my ci So you have different like different potentials of different the receivability in different organizations, let's say That's awesome So i'm gonna no go ahead. I I wanted to circle back because um you you Talked a little bit about you briefly mentioned before we got under this latest thread About, you know, what makes git ops better, you know, some of these kind of business values And that's kind of the title of our of our session here I wanted to highlight Another one that I think is really interesting. Um that really kind of dovetails two things together And that is um, you know, I'm a big fan You've seen me do talks before i'm a big fan of the the work that dora has done In the dora metrics And so what we talked about before with disaster recovery Well, the dora metric that's tied to that is mean time to recovery. So how quickly can you recover a system? But there's another one that i'm a big fan of which is very squarely in kind of the operation space Which is the change change failure rate? yeah, and One of the things that's super interesting about git ops is that it allows you You know again going back to this notion of git is the interface for operations Is that before we had a collaborative a really like a tool that was designed around collaboration around change control The way that change control typically worked was we did all of this work and then kind of the last step before we push Things out into production. We had this elaborate ceremony Where some change control person would come along and say okay now you have to prove all these things And they would have their checklist. Yep, exactly They'd have their checklist and all of that stuff And one of the things that we talked about and I was just in my my dev ops enterprise summit session earlier today Was we talk about shifting left? Yeah, and so What git ops allows you to do is it allows you to shift that control that change control left So now you are doing these checks on your your storing now Configuration changes for your production system. You're storing those in git And so now you can have all of the people who have the best context as Approvers in that git repository And you can set it up so that you have to have three approvers You have to have this Approver is required in these other two two of the other five. You know that type of thing And so there's this notion of collaboration. So get git ops supports collaboration around change control So broad visibility lots of different eyeballs. It's not so checklist based. It's in context Which I think is really important Right, but then there's the other part which also Lends to this lowering the change failure rate, which is Okay We now have we've just made a change I'm going to roll this change out I start rolling this change out and I on the first sign of something going wrong Before a whole bunch of my users are affected I recognize uh-oh And I might even have automation like flagger or something that is helping me with this progressive delivery At the first sign of trouble we go. Oh never mind. Let me go back to the previous version And so that those two things in combination collaboration get-based collaboration And the fact that I can just Snap back to an earlier part in my version history And I have a complete representation of what that looked like so I can you know go back to that state That is a game changer for Change failure rate reducing change failure rate. So that's another just perfect example of how get ops changes This whole dev ops scene. I mean the state of the dev ops report has been around for longer than the term get ops has been But it really get ops really Supports the whole dev ops agenda in a really particularly compelling way Awesome That's the actually what I usually point out when I talk to customers and they they have this question of Like they haven't been too involved in in this space If it is get ops like what comes after dev ops or what how is that like related? But this is this is exactly like the the relationship is So the core of dev ops is almost a cliche now that that is the collaboration. I did the you've seen hundreds of Presentation that started this slide of collaboration Uh, which is like useful information to have the next question is that most customers ask this guy But okay, how I do want to collaborate more But what am I supposed to do? Is it like have weekly calls now? But with infosec and qe and like everyone has a half an hour every week One of them in every team or how am I gonna What how are we gonna collaborate more like give give me the recipe right? This is the this is the question like I think that that has been one of the like challenges of the ops that I see that it From the value to the practice is that there's a big gap of how do I realize that right was left a lot to imagination and interpretations and Get ops really like gives gives that product comes with a prescriptive process for that that realizes those values, right, so this is Like I think that in in adoption care Most organizations in any any type of like any any new process new technology new way of work in the beginning Most organizations are not at the maturity level that they can consume a couple of different ways of doing that and decide Like actively with with sufficient awareness, which one fits them. It's rather they they want something uh a lot more prescriptive and instructive of how they need to do things and then get to the maturity level that they can modify that process or change it in ways that fits them and and and this is what I see as one of the really extremely important values of githops that makes Adopting those DevOps practices extremely accessible. Like it really breaks it down into the the type of like workflows that frankly most organizations already have like When was the last time you talked to a team that is not using uh git so a large portion of these workflows are known and it connects certain dots for them that Was not this this visible so that that's how I um There's one of the big values that I see out of like really putting this together and like going back to Like the the term I do think that even though these practices Are not new I do see a lot of benefit in in in the term Thanks to we've worked for for calling the term because it brings attention to the packaging of these practices in a new way and how they relate to each other how they're Used together it helps a lot with uh with that perspective in my opinion This I mean this literally takes us to our next question and I'm gonna toot my own hoarder in here for a second because no one else will um Back in may of 2018. I was on a Uh podcast on the new stack uh the folks over there invited me on and I actually said to me GitOps is the holy grail of DevOps right like It becomes a way To force some of those DevOps practices onto an organization that might not realize that they need to right so GitOps is in my opinion an implementation of DevOps and You can build a lot more Taking that GitOps approach in your organization culturally By doing it this way. I mean is is that kind of You know it has cultural changes You know occurred as a result of folks embracing GitOps from your perspectives I can't start with that one. So it is There are like varying degrees of that Uh that they can see like frankly. I can't say I've seen Like total shift of culture across the entire organization But I do see especially like talking with the same teams over Like different quarters you can you can see the changes and the the level of collaboration how it increases especially like I said like in within the enterprise Contacts and customers a type of customer the red hat has and we we talk to very often We do see that it comes from this control environment and gradually they get losing up to bring in more the app teams and other Other teams to collaborate. So The type of questions that we get and type of like problems that customers have in this space does point out out that The the roadmap of visions that that organizations are building toward how they can share the responsibilities more How they can let go of some of the controls that a lot of these organizations have that the lower levels of infrastructure and It it's difficult for me to judge if GitOps is the reason for that or that was the reason they adopted get us But they they go hand in hand a lot in in in many of the conversations we have with these people amazing Yeah, and and I would concur with that. I I I'm not sure that GitOps is has been the forcing function and I'm I'm right there with you chris that GitOps again It serves the dev ops agenda particularly well But I think that the dev ops agenda Is the thing that has been forcing the cultural change more than more than GitOps as a practice in specific Absolutely. Um, it's become rarer and rarer. I mean back in my earlier pivotal days It most organizations still had a very kind of traditional It structure where they had the app developers were super siloed from and they threw things over the wall And there was an operations team and the operations team wasn't operating You know just infrastructure. They were operating infrastructure and the applications Despite the fact that they didn't have the context of the applications And so that bifurcation of developers just do development. They don't do operations And operations just as operations. They don't do development and by the way they do operations at the entire stack That was still quite prevalent. I would say six seven years ago What I'm finding now is this this Realization of a platform team and CMAC earlier you use platform owner This notion of platform and platform team has become pretty darn common Um, now I will say that there's still kubernetes Has taken that so you take this concept of a platform team And there's a very closely related concept which is self-service Now self-service has come through the cloud and all of these things. So when we think about enterprise platform teams What I see a lot of happening right now and CMAC you talked about it earlier in in one of your use cases Which is the thing that they self serve as they self serve kubernetes clusters And now it's still very common for me to talk to to somebody in the enterprise organization who says Yeah, but now the problem we have Is that we have to beg them to make sure that they keep it all up to date That they you know that they update kubernetes versions that they update the software You know the version of prometheus that's running on there. And so what they've done is they've self-served infrastructure Essentially by giving a full kubernetes cluster with you talked about at CMAC No multi-tenancy there. So you can do anything you want on it Meaning you could do good things you could do bad things with great power comes great responsibility Exactly um and so Where git ops is it continues to support that and it's not only I wouldn't say that git ops is the thing That's the forcing function is that git ops is I keep emphasizing this It is Get as the interface for operations and CMAC you just said it as well Which is you got to give up the fact that you're not going to get the entire cluster But you can use git ops to this is this is something where git ops didn't Isn't really the the the thing that's solving this it's kubernetes that is kubernetes allows you to apply things into the cluster at so many different layers That you can apply declarative configuration into the cluster. That's not a workload It's a configuration of the cluster And so the platform team could then be responsible for those configurations and git ops in those configurations so that They're serving to the application team The ability for them to operate their own applications Not the infrastructure itself. They're self-serving operations not self-serving infrastructure. Yes the the That all right there is worth it to me right like yep If i'm looking at this from my business is it has lots of stuff going on and there's a whole bunch going on and this team is running All kubernetes from my entire organization I'm gonna sit there and be like they have to be struggling because kubernetes the advancement of change is just rapid and then You know people say kubernetes. They don't just mean The upstream project kubernetes. They mean like kubernetes and all the bits and pieces like we ship with open shift Right like it's not just kubernetes. It's prometheus It's it's all the bits and pieces fluent d a whole nine yards that you have to consider and think about and say all right Like these need to be updated or updatable at any given moment due to potential vulnerabilities or whatever You know organizational mandate You know Compliance whatever the reason may be um, which kind of dovetails Kind of slightly into like what is the audit trail like with get ops right like I always like showing people like hey, you know You made all these changes Oh, what are the auditors going to see? You know like there's always that concern about letting go like cmax said right like What do I lose by doing this? Well, you actually gain something pretty awesome uh by doing get ops What is that audit trail like for folks because I feel for that poor person that's about to go through an audit The kubernetes clusters like all kinds of everybody's in it kind of deal So, I mean we can start with the high level marketing Buzz around get ops and auditing we go. Oh, it's easy So this is the the marketing. It's easy part which says hey everything's in get And everything's recorded and get it's the only interface to operations So every single change made to your your environment is You can see who made it who approved it And it's in in in a get repository somewhere Okay, it's in a get repository Somewhere right and we just talked about how the platform team has responsibilities for part some layers in the system And the application teams have responsibility for some layers in the system And so this is an area where yes, the data storage is there It's the storage All of this stuff is recorded in get Um, this is something that early get ops adopters and practitioners have then Hit squarely and said, okay. Well, it's all recorded in there. How on earth to my auditors navigate that And this is an opportunity. Um, this is an opportunity for all of us to build kind of A certain set of tooling that allows that serves the auditor well So that allows them to for example, see that Well, if something went wrong here, let's trace or if something went right, let's trace What were all of the different, you know, commits that Came that played a role in the way that this runtime environment Was operating in the end. It doesn't come from it's not that the entire thing from your cluster configuration Or your cluster definition cluster configuration Infrastructure definition All the way up through the workload is in the single get repository and I can just navigate the version history there I have to stitch these things together and that's someplace where we still have to do a lot of innovation And get up space. I mean Stephen Nemo here in chat just mentioned like socks Separation or responsibility, right? Like that separation can still exist But it can converge in a get repo Into a pull request kind of thing, right? Like that's definitely The christian hernan is is in chat and says someone needs to write a tool that turns get log into a report for auditors That's a good. That's a good idea Exactly Exactly There are like other sources of influence well, like I wouldn't say that I would say this that this is definitely Like provides easier access to audit than not having A trail of changes in in gets like if you don't have that you you have much bigger problem Frank, right? But there is a gap. I agree. There is a gap that So there like it is a great place At this multiple repos perhaps is Distributed you you also have we talked about Prometheus. You also have perhaps alters in In our manager there do you have kubernetes events of the cluster that has been the target of these deployments and There there there is usually get ops tool also in place that has also a trail of changes that has applied so There is definitely an opportunity there for Like new new tooling really to appear to to close this gap of correlation of data How do you correlate all these different events that I have in different systems? so Everything is documented but how do I how can I look at a window of time and Put all this on on a timeline that can help me Not not just for audit purposes to be honest, but even for Like root cause analysis and reducing the like failure time the metrics that we're talking about it So there are The current situation is better than like without relying on gets but there are improvements in my opinion that that can be made so Yeah, absolutely So I wanted to talk about the event you two just keynoted for a little bit Get ops con was Day zero or day one whatever we call it now event at cube con eu a couple weeks ago What were your big takeaways from that event? Right? Like there's a lot of interest and we had a lot of people speak Both of you included. Uh, well Did you pick up anything along the way during that conference that you'd like to share with anyone else? From my perspective, I go first on this one from my perspective Uh, like the the very fact that uh, it was so well received even though There are like this year there are multiple get ops events really in a very short time frame for each other and and the fact that it was so well received such a high level of participation and At cube con of of any event which is there are a lot a lot of different events that are really competing for attention uh What that uh, my conclusion was that this is this is definitely a challenging area for for many of Like people in the kubernetes ecosystem. These are Uh, these are not pain points that are like unique to um It it a small segment of organization that Perhaps are further in their DevOps journey or they have scale problems or have multiple hundreds of Like kubernetes cluster and they're thinking about what it tells me that this is a very actual problem that Uh, a lot of teams with with various shapes and sizes in in different Calls and different maturity levels are are dealing with and they're looking at get ops as Uh a possible workflow that could help them address these these challenges. So it has been um, it was great to see but also, uh shows like, uh How much more aware we need to be across these these different type of use cases and uh, how much more conversations like we need to have with this With these teams our organization to understand how their cases are different and how their requirements or challenges might be different and other other flavors of this process or other changes that Uh might be unique to A particular vertical for example, this this is something that I took away at this from the event Nice. Yeah And and to put to put a metric against some of the things that you just said We had 900 people over the course of the day join Get ops con it was amazing phenomenal Um when we first, you know put put the event on and it was an event that was uh cosponsored by we've works and red hat When we first came up with this idea of hey, do we do a zero day event around get ops and All of that stuff. I think I don't know about you chris But I was thinking man if we got two three four hundred people registered that'd be pretty cool My thing was like 500, right? Like you can get 500 people to show up for anything. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah And we Yeah, we smashed it. I mean from a registration perspective. We were up in the thousands which yeah for a free event It's typical to but even there. I think we had 27 hundred registrants and 900 people showed up. So 30 percent Is it pretty high success rate when it comes to a virtual event these days? Absolutely For virtual events. Yeah to to give another metric most of those people spent more than three hours in the event Right, which is absolutely like telling about yeah, how Interested people are in this space. So yeah, your teams that are working right now Probably just went to get ops con. They're probably going to get ops days in june I dropped the links to the playlist and get ops con and the link to get ops days But we're also planning get ops con north america for you know, october when cube con is hopefully going to occur in Los angeles We're in the works making these you know virtual or hybrid events You know, whatever they need to be and yeah, yeah, there is great interest amongst The industry for these things Now I want to plug a couple of sessions really quickly from there So for your listeners that didn't have a chance to attend. They're of course all the get ops con Videos are up on and and chris was the executive producer for that. So thank you chris for Providing all of your expertise in in doing that So chris and his team have made all of those things available on youtube There were a couple of talks that I found really great. I'm always really drawn to the end user So the success stories So one in particular was generally switzerland or switzerland generally. I think it was generally switzerland Um, and there was another and I can't remember off the top And I had the name of the company, but I would encourage you it was a it was single track conference So there's only about nine nine sessions or something up there So you'll be able to easily find the ones that are connected to That the practitioners the people who are putting these practices in place And who are inventing those along with all of us in the industry because it is in the early days I I would say that we're you know five ten percent of the way in on our get ops journey at the moment So we're still learning a lot about these like these practices So yeah, I would encourage everybody to go out and take a look. Especially. There's a couple of really great talks Yeah, there really are. I mean even the lightning talks are great. They're the The quality of what we got submission wise in such a short amount of time was really impressive Yeah, so if you're doing get ops out there, please, you know, let us know and you know We'll get you signed up for session at get ops con na or help you out with get ops days I want to wrap up here because our friends over on dev nation Are about to cure up at the top of the hour, but One last closing question for both of you What gets you up in the morning, right? Like There's all these challenges out there and it feels sometimes overwhelming even for me to help people solve them And what motivates you to just get out of bed and get going every day I can perhaps to start so and Like I really love talking to to customers and The the child so I'm like as you know, I'm within the Kubernetes space So I exclusive talk to most customers about like issues around Kubernetes and CICD on Kubernetes, but one side of this is like it's really rewarding when you talk to customers understand them and you can uh impact Like products at red hat in a way that addresses their challenges not on the same day, but in in a life cycle and In you can really like evolve the products and offering in red hat in a way that helps those customers and the consequent conversation That that's a very rewarding experience for me From from from the the process perspective and the other side of is really the community's space is extremely Exciting like we care passionately about developers about development process we talked about GitOps and A lot of that relies on that declarative ways of working that we talked about and Kubernetes as an ecosystem is such a such a live thing and the direction that it that is going in the way it's growing and I see things like The the Kubernetes the control plane that is detaching Kubernetes from that declarative everything and Growing the type of interaction with Kubernetes out of outside a cluster like you talk to Kubernetes as a way to Drive the other type of infrastructure outside Kubernetes or services like it's becoming really the center piece of declarative everything that And and and knowing like closely how GitOps can improve Operations of customers and how that can become in in a year or two when that part of the ecosystem of Kubernetes Expands and it's like at the very beginning of journey, but as we grow that part of the ecosystem I I get like really excited where This this will be in a little while and the type of conversation we'll be having with with users with Kubernetes like teams that are adopting Kubernetes of the the degrees of Like work ways of working The GitOps type of operation that can apply and how this can expand to things that is Is not really imaginable today for for most of these organizations and even for for ourselves because we were talking like very future looking I'm extremely excited about those pieces Awesome, that's great. Thank thank you both for being here today. I really appreciate you wait I get to answer the question. Sorry. Don't I yes And I promise I'll keep it short But I do want to take just a moment before I answer that question to emphasize something that chris said we do have an event We've works is putting on GitOps days. It's a two-day event june 9th and 10th My colleague tamo Nakahara Is a magician she runs our dx program. She is a magician when it Comes to putting on events like this. We will have a live dj between sessions. It's going to be super fun So, please do come but what gets me up in the morning is Exactly, I'm going to use the anecdote that you talked about chris Earlier specific as a specific example I wake up every morning thinking What is going to happen today that I just cannot even be anticipating that is going to have a lasting impact on my life and it doesn't There isn't something like that every day But you had that day in 2018 when you showed up on the new stack podcast That was just another day you woke up and we're going to be on a podcast And the context of the conversation Is what helped you make this really impactful statement That has had an impact on your life and other people's lives In the year since here it is three years later and it's still such a Or a moment of remembrance for you and you recognize the rippling effects that that moment has had That's what gets me up because I believe that every day has a possibility of having one of those Boulders in in the pond that causes these huge rippling effects and that's what I love about life. Wow. What an amazing I'm so glad that you were able to say that an amazing amazing finish to this episode. So thank you So much cmx. Thank you so much. Cornelia. I appreciate your time I appreciate all the efforts you're putting into the community You know at at at large for everyone Out there trying to make their lives better in general right like dev ops is essentially Making lives better in my opinion. So and using technology to do it. So thank you very much for coming on today And I really appreciate all the work you're doing out there. Thank you so much And thank you chris. Thanks for making this possible for us. No problem at all uh coming up next folks is the one and only sebi and he will be talking about uh, he has a special guest talking about corkas today So tune in they're going to do some stuff with doom The video game. So that should be fun. So again, thank you cornelia and cmx. Thank you audience And we will see you again soon All right, thanks everyone Thank you