 Welcome to Breeder Syndicate 2.0, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene. Researching everything from cannabis strain history, old smuggling tales from the first person perspective, to breeding science and news on current subculture. I'm your host, Matthew, and I'll occasionally be joined by my homey, not so dumb, Breeder and Grower from Mendicino, to speak on these subjects and sometimes interview other participants. Our goal is to document this history before it's written by corporations and others who just weren't there. Let's start writing some wrongs. Welcome to the Underground. Hey, what's up, everyone? Welcome to Breeder Syndicate. I'm Matthew, here with my co-host, Thousand Fold, and today we are going to talk... Voila! And off we go. So today we are continuing our series on breeding, and I'd like to thank Quasio for suggesting this one. We are going to be going over some of the quote-unquote building blocks of modern cannabis. Some of the plants and lines that still feature in much of modern work today. We're going to go over each of these and talk about how they will breed and how they will work in breeding projects. Yeah, that's all I had to say there. All right. Yeah, this is an easy one. We've covered it briefly in another episode, but I wanted to go more in-depth and more in detail on a few of them, because I think it definitely needs to be done. So yeah, without further ado... Yeah, okay. So I guess we'll first launch into some of the golden generation. So Hayes, Skunk 1, Northern Lights. Yes, sir. Poison Afghani No. 1, Blueberry. So we can start with Hayes, Matt. So for Hayes, being one of the main baselines, a lot of Dutch still to this day use Hayes as one of their main baselines that's in most everything. A lot of it was Hayes crossed to Skunk 1. But, you know, like as the Dutch and Neville and all them were over there developing these lines, Sam the Skunk Man in America, according to history or as it's told, I should say, and Rob Clark obviously was a part of that as we learned later on. The development of things like Hayes and Skunk 1 took place in California originally. They weren't Dutch specific. But when Sam the Skunk Man went over to Amsterdam, he took a few of these lines with him. And they worked so well. And things like Skunk 1 had a very specific structure that bred well into other lines. Whereas things like Hayes, I mean, supposedly, trying to find these versions of Hayes, I haven't quite experienced yet. But supposedly they had the ultimate high, according to Neville. And a lot of the work done over in Amsterdam was to try to capture that Hayes high in a faster, faster, better structured, more resinous form. Essentially an easier growing form for indoor. Hayes is one of the baselines. There is debate about what is in Hayes. It sounds like some of what Sam gave to Neville and whoever else ended up with it, because there's some quotes from others saying they got Hayes from Sam too. But it sounds like some of these different batches were different versions worked by this, whatever group was in Santa Cruz making the Hayes. And some had Indian in it later on, some had Thai. But it sounds like what we're seeing is mostly a combination of Colombian gold, things like Acapulco gold. And maybe Thai in there from the original stuff being combined. And those took it a lot of different directions and obviously were very long flowering, since there was no addition of Afghani at that point in any of this. So it itself was a work line from, the history says Santa Cruz, so I'm going to go with that. And yeah, it is constructed of what I would also consider older baselines. But they're not baselines that I can fully speak on since I wasn't really alive when Colombian gold, Panama red, Acapulco gold, you know, any of those, Zacatecas purple, any of those were around being, you know, smoked, I just wasn't there. So I can't really comment on those fully, but we do know that the basis for things like Skunk One as well were Acapulco gold and Colombian gold was a mafia according to Sam the Skunk Man. So while the baselines, we were talking about baselines, I did want to have a quick nod to the baselines that existed before the lines that we commonly use, because technically people could take it back to the Acapulco gold, the Colombian gold and things like that. But realistically, what we are working with today are modern versions of things like the Hayes, the Skunk One, the Northern Lights, One, Two, Fire, you know. I mean, this is also the kind of limit of, you know, roughly the limits of what we know as well. Exactly. If we go back further, we just don't have that information. It's really hard with information going back further. I mean, like I've been trying to allude to just calling them stories or, you know, whatever, because we have really one man's perspective of Skunk One, how it was created, who created it and when. And, you know, that's just one man's take on it, one man's story. And not to call it any of that into question, but that's what we have. And that's what I'm repeating, but it doesn't necessarily make it fact. You know what I mean? Like it's, because I'm sure there were other people involved with different perspectives. And I definitely don't want to ignore that, because things change over time. What if one of these guys comes out and speaks and is very legit? And, yeah, so I don't want to, I don't want to nail this into stone necessarily on who brought what where at what time. But we do know that Sam did bring, you know, the Hayes and the Skunk One over. We do know that for a fact, but who was involved with making these and what their makeup was. We are taking that from a story. Yeah. And I think Hayes in particular out of this whole list is probably like our broadest term in the sense of like, it's hard to point at, you know, particular lines or particular clones and say like they that definitely represents all of Hayes. Absolutely. Quite a lot of fragmentation there. Like trying to refer to Hayes as a single line to me is really incorrect. If you go back and look at the history, it seems like it was several lines that were made by a specific group or work by a specific group. And in that case, you know, like one is a hybrid of the other. Would you call it the same name? Would that be the same line? Technically probably not. Like it could be very different from the last one. You know what I mean? But yeah, during that time, there wasn't all the name game. There wasn't all the marketing involved. So the Hayes brothers and the Hayes crew were some of the first to do any type of marketing and putting their names out there. And when they did, they called it like, let's see. It was the magenta, silver, blue and another one. And they did denote that there were different versions of this Hayes out there, but they were just called by color names. And that was it at the time. Okay. So we might have to broad stroke this one a little bit. Yeah. And I did want to ask here. So in general, broadly speaking, what, and I think you already mentioned this, but what traits do you want to see passed from a Hayes type plant? So I'm only going to speak on what Neville would talk about because he was the one most vocal and had the most experience with breeding original Hayes. If I were to try to speak out on myself, I mean my populations were small and I tried different seed lines of original Hayes. And I just don't know how similar those were to what was being seen in Amsterdam at the time. So I'll talk about from Neville's experience what he was looking for. He wanted to find the high of Hayes and the flavors and the sweetness of Mexican and all the other things like that. And in a shorter flowering time, he wanted to use Indica's and Afghani's as he put it to shorten the flowering time, but he did not want the high from any of those to overtake the Hayes high. That was his ultimate goal. And in the end, he is like the one thing I remember most of him talking about Hayes was that he decided that the Hayes females really weren't worth breeding with. And he found that the males carried much more of what he wanted genetically and passed on more genetically than the females. And obviously he wasn't doing like marker assisted breeding, you know, but from experience I found like, you know, that really does play into a point. And Neville really did know his plants. I can I can attest to that. So, yeah, what what was seen in Amsterdam is is typically agreed to be like the Colombian dominant Hayes. What Neville got seems to have been very Colombian gold dominant, according to Neville and others, his old partner. And there are other versions of Hayes out there that are more, quote unquote, Thai dominant or Southeast Asian, whatever a different, slightly different direction. So there are different groups of people that have different theories about which directions they should take this original haze line, original haze seed line. Some feel that, you know, the real high of Hayes is in the Southeast Asian direction, Vietnamese, Thai, whatever was really used. And some people are very adamant that Colombian is the way to find the traits that people want, the Colombian direction. I don't know enough about pure Colombian or pure Southeast Asian from that era to even comment on it. But that's essentially what I've taken from the conversation. Yep. And so you mentioned the high. And you mentioned breeding it with indicators to shorten flowering time. I imagine improved structure as well. Yes. Yields. All of it. Okay. Okay. Do you have a sense of what traits tended to pass, like an actuality? So an actuality. How often did that high get passed down? It doesn't sound like the high was, it sounds like the thing that one thing everybody chases, almost like looking for that skunks in it, you know, like the high of Hayes is this mystical thing that a lot of people really, I mean, there are people have really good Hayes examples, like Hayes hybrid examples that with really great highs that are just blow your head off. As far as in pure Hayes, it seems like it's been a long chase, a very long chase and not a lot of clonal examples kept in past, if that makes sense. A lot of the hybrids been great. Yeah, what are good examples of hybrids? First and foremost, like the first thing comes to my mind is super silver Hayes, which is a combination of the skunk one and all five or like five, which we will discuss a little bit, but we've gone into deep like so much detail in northern lights. I don't really know what much more we could cover on other than to say, you know, it was the other than whatever Afghani was used in super skunk. It was probably one of the more common Afghanis used like the NL one by by Neville and them and all five as well was used pretty heavily, but NL one was usually used as the male in lines. They do it out cross to things like Hayes. What else do we have? Super silver Hayes though is the first thing comes to mind a combination of northern lights five skunk one and Hayes and different, you know, combinations. I remember I think skunk ones on both sides. It's been a while. Things like mango Hayes, Neville Hayes, all great examples, but super silver Hayes seems to be the one that has been the oft most repeated and renamed in my opinion. What's the relation to amnesia Hayes? I know they're close, right? It's, you know, I've tried to get the answer out of people, but it sounds like amnesia is just a individual from an individual from super silver Hayes. Yeah, okay. I mean, they're very similar, very, very similar. But for some reason, amnesia, whether it was the name or just a slightly faster, better version of a lot of the super silver Hayes examples, it stuck around pretty heavily in Amsterdam and still passed around in clone form pretty wide. Yeah, still big in Europe for sure. Massive. Okay. Well, for me, the last question on Hayes. Are there weird possibilities? I mean, this is probably more true of this one than a lot of the others. Are there weird possibilities or paths that you can see with Hayes that people haven't really taken yet? It's really a hard question for this one. You know, I think with the original Hayes line as Sam used to sell it and like I've seen examples from different people of the current original Hayes line from Sam. And it's like got dense bud and resonance. That's nothing like I've seen in original Hayes in the past or history or any of that. Like it's pretty well documented to not look like that. With that said, I've seen some pretty amazing stuff that only like one person's done where like crossing deep chunk to Hayes makes something very modern, beautiful resonance at ticks all the boxes. I think Hayes has a lot of potential being crossed to some of these base Afghanis that kind of float around like, you know, like we're seeing a lot more Afghanis be imported and different Afghanis accessible. All those make potential potential great partners to Hayes and you can see a lot of unique directions just coming from using different modern Afghanis, you know, I think that you think in 2023 it's still worth trying. People have access to these things. Mendo perps Hayes, like an old purple Afghani like that crossed the Hayes I think would be pretty amazing. But like you have to consider like the reason a lot of these people wanted to use Hayes in the first place was the high and crossing the Afghanis and hoping to keep that high seems to be the hardest part. Nice. So it the partner will matter for sure but there's all kinds of directions you could go with it to bring it into the modern times, modern era where, you know, like little dad kids could enjoy it when they see it on Instagram. Dang bro, I can't smell it, but it looks dang whatever that means. Anything else you'd like to say about Hayes. It's still, it's still somewhat of a mystery on its past. It's something that I've been chasing down a long time, be it trying to figure out who the Hayes brothers were, if they're still around, were they always the original creators of Hayes. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those mysteries and cannabis that that I'd like to solve before I'm done, you know, I don't know that I will. I don't know, I think it's one of the most interesting mysteries and cannabis and I wish more people would jump in on it like serious serious researchers and see how far they can get. Did someone like, because those are great conversations but did someone like magic encounter Hayes. Not that I'm aware. I wasn't mentioning skunk one and that like that story about Rob Clark and the briefcase and all that, but I don't think he was growing. He was growing a lot of other stuff like long flowering like Mexicans and Colombians and stuff but those were not those are like his own accessions that he had gotten over the years from I don't, I don't think Rob brought Hayes. He did bring Afghani one, though, and skunk one for sure. And I think in the looking at the maps and the different stuff that I have for mad Jag. There's also Polly Anna in there, which to me, you know, like it's one of them. I can't call it a baseline because how much did early pearl and silver pearl really pass into modern lines. But at the same time, like, it's a baseline that I'm interested in because I'm so fascinated by the pearl group, but overall I don't think it's as important to cannabis history, as it is important to me to, you know, to research and discuss. Yeah, fair enough. Okay, well, we can move on to skunk one. All right, let's do skunk one. What should we start on. So, I guess the first thing is, again, this is a, this is a, it's a line. It's not a, it's not an individual plan. Correct. So how, how wide or narrow, which you consider this line at this point in 2023. In 2023, I mean, skunk one, I've seen so many different examples of skunk one nowadays that are supposedly from pure lines. You have some skunk one that's super dense and and smells bland and and earthy. You have skunk one that's resonance looks more narrow leaf smells cheesy foot funky all the way to berry and fruit like in the same clone. Yeah, skunk one seems to be all over the place to me. Yeah, you can find still different examples, rape, still variable. Yeah. Okay. So, as always, this is a quite a subjective question, but for you, Matt, what would you, what traits do you like to see being passed. One of my favorite examples of skunk one is probably the green crack. Like, we don't know what's in green crack necessarily but all the traits kind of mount up to be skunk one dominant, like it looks like a great example of skunk one. It's very heavy mango smelling. It's offspring is very purple and I like that because I like purple for aesthetic beauty. It's dense. It's a great commercial producer. It's resonance enough. I mean, today in today's modern market green crack might not do as well because people like to see leaf resin a lot, which most people just cut off, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's one of my favorite examples. A lot of people's favorite examples are cheese. And I've talked about that clone a bunch being one of the clones that I've learned most about the plasticity of cannabis. And I meant to give a definition because I mentioned it a few times. And I, you know, like, I didn't know if I was kind of making shit up like we're calling it plastic, because it's like made mostly with, you know, rubber would be probably better. It's a correct term, I think. But plant plasticity refers to a plant's ability and this is from plant plasticity.ku.dk. First to a plant's ability to adapt and to cope with changes in its environment in contrast animals which are able to actively move away to avoid challenges such as predators or changing climate. Plants have acquired the ability to biosynthesize an unprecedented array of structurally complex bioactive natural compounds and specialized roles in order to cope with environmental challenges. So that's what plasticity overall is in a plant. When I refer to it in skunk one, when you have a single clone that when you change the medium or how you feed it and it can go from something as extreme as like, that's a good example, like Gouda cheese smelling or like Toefunk cheese all the way to a sweet berry in the same clone. That is super not common to see something that plastic and versatile in a single clone. So you can imagine breeding with something like this, you're going to see a lot of different examples come out of it because it'll have that whole range in it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't know if I answered the question, but. No, you did, you did. Okay, what traits I guess the converse is what traits would you not like to see being passed from skunk one. That bland oh man like I saw all of this like without naming any names, a few people released skunk one in the past, you know, five years. And a lot of that was all bland, bland oh earthy and that's got plenty of that bro. There's so much of that and all of today's modern lines. That come from skunk. Oh my God, dude. Blando Clarision has to be my next. That's a good one. I mean, yeah, it's everywhere. It's in it's in every line, even in cookies and wedding cake, all that stuff you can run into that bland oh skunk one banana og has it very heavy, you know, and it's out crosses. It's what I try to avoid most from skunk one myself. I mean, maybe some people like it maybe they like the high from bland oh, I do not like the high from that. Okay. Any anything else that that can be passed down from skunk one that's that you can think of that's not desirable. Was that the main the main thing? I mean, other than like, depending on what your project is, if you want to breed something very uniform and less plastic, like that would be an undesirable trait if you're going for uniformity right. So that's another thing I would say. Yeah. So as always, you know what you'd like to see pass should be relative to your goals. Counterpoint though. S ones of green crack were like, I mean, other than the fact that most of them were purple looking like they all look like like green crack. Exactly. So there is ways to find skunk one examples that are more true breeding than others. But like how pure skunk one it is, I don't know. You know what I mean. So, okay, it may be skunk one s three. You know what I mean. Like maybe that's why it's a uniform. Yeah, exactly. Okay, and to round skunk one out. Are there still weird possibilities that people haven't explored in your opinion, or have we seen enough of it that like we've more or less seen the range to you. Man, that is a tough one. That is a tough one. Maybe another way of framing it is like, what's, have you seen anything really strange to come out of skunk one, apart from say cheese, as you mentioned already an outlier. I haven't seen anything that I would consider amazing, wondrous unique examples out of skunk one that I haven't seen prior. But like I said, like there's some stuff I think that is worth bringing with like the green crack that you can take different directions and do new novel things with. But I mean, I think it would be more like trying to find those already excellent examples that exist as opposed to trying to do seat hunts of what's left of skunk one or is being presented as skunk one. Because it really feels like it's all been worked in a very specific direction and a far cry from what it once was. Yeah, yeah, and we have told that story a few times so we won't get into that. Okay, so we can move on to something you already mentioned, Northern Lights. Okay, Northern Lights. Yeah, it's a family. I don't know which, which one we're going to, you know, talk about or how we broad stroke this one. Um, yeah, I don't even know where to start. Most of the NL that anybody's ever seen is NL one, and I'll to rental five. It's a quick way to broad brush stroke it a lot of what was used in hybrids were the NL five. However, never also use the NL one a lot and now to got used briefly. And all two is supposed to be the more cushy Hindu Kush one and all one supposedly like Baba, you know, like his best people can kind of break apart. And NL five was a hybrid supposedly of a Hawaiian and Afghani. So it was supposed to be more hybrid, like narrow leaf mixed in with the broad leaf and never tended to like his, his selections with the NL five across the haze over like save NL one or any other ones. Okay, so come back to this whole question. Would you consider it to be wide quote unquote when narrow in terms of variability still. So going through the NL five that we got from from what's his name, I'm going to say his name, but the person who supposedly originated the line. It was quite variable, quite variable, but there was a lot of like the earthy chocolate in it, you know that I would expect from the Steve Murphy Afghani based on like the NL one and all two. There's a lot of that in there. But there's a it's it's pretty wide invariant. I mean, but it was it was open pollinated. And I think the one before that was open pollinated as well. So that also could be why it's really hard to say to really speak on knowing that I've seen a perfect excellent example of NL five while I'm confident. That's what we got. I cannot factually state that obviously like that would be too hard to do. And there's always some faith in it, you know, you're always taking someone's word at some point. Yeah. Okay, and as far as you can generalize this again, what traits tend to be favorable in it and that people like to see past. Okay, so just in general what I'll say is NL one. I mean, it looks like Bubba and it looks like that's just what Bubba might be. And if that's the case, Bubba has so many amazing traits and it's why it's still used as one of the modern lines constantly by people who love it and have kept it for years. So, I mean, like that soapy earthy chocolate, just really dense perfect for growing indoor is like NL one and all two is very similar, maybe a little more stretchy. I'm trying to think of good examples. Neville thought that OG Kush was an NL two base. Kush for NL two was Neville's prediction, if I remember correctly, and he was positive at least on the NL two. That's all I remember him talking about when we would discuss OG Kush, you'd say, that's my NL two. That's my NL two. I'm sure. So by looking at it, he thought OG Kush was a great example of NL two, which like as far as traits go, people have consistently bred towards OG Kush type plants. Over the past 20 years, and that's why we ended up in this cookies direction, in my opinion. You know, like, so it is a desirable trait to have things like OG Kush, but like, you know, desirable traits get compounded over time, then it gets a lot less desirable, in my opinion. Yeah. Oh, undesirable. I don't know enough about him for undesirables. I only know a few examples to compare them to of the NL one and two. NL five there. I could talk about all kinds of undesirables in that and there's some booth in there. It's it's another one where back in the day when we talk about a high ceiling, low floor, it's a great example of it. It's a great example of an 80s hybrid where you can find some really, really nice stuff in it. That like some of the chocolatey stuff in there is just phenomenal. And chocolate is not a common thing to see. I did cut you off as you were about to talk about NL five desirable. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, the chocolate is very desirable, but there's a lot of a lot of like again, earthy, low flavor, low potency, not very resonance kind of loose butted stuff in NL five. It's all in there. Yeah, everything from both sides. How variable was was in terms of structure? Um, it, you know, I mean, it had a pretty wide ranging structure. It's a hybrid. So, you know, it definitely did have a wide ranging structure, but there was a lot of it wasn't so wide that you would think, Oh, fuck, does that have haze in it? You know, like it was it was a manageable indoor structure. Everything we saw. Okay. So are there things that you saw reliably past or like tended to pass more frequently than other things? Hard question again. Yeah, not enough data yet. Not enough data to answer that correctly. All right. And then last one, as always, are there weird things that people haven't seen tried considered yet? Again, not enough data yet. I mean, considering NL five was most people know new NL five is a clone, you know, that Neville had selected. And we were given an NL five seedline that supposedly predated anything Neville touched with because Neville modified nor lights each one in Amsterdam himself. And none of that was just pure from Greg, even though he gets upset when I say that it's true. It's just he modified everything and NL five was no different. So the NL five that people are used to and accustomed to that came from Amsterdam over here will be different than the NL five that stayed in the States. So there's also that and I and we have a lot more data on NL five and hybrids and all five proper being the clone that Neville used. However, the NL five seedline is still pretty fresh to everyone, you know, only been around a few years being passed around. Okay, well, since we we have talked about haze and we have talked about Northern Lights, is it worth going into NL five haze? I mean, considering it's it's a hybrid of two of the baselines. I don't really think so other than to say, you know, it's a fine example of an F one, you know, roughly. And it tends to be what spit out a lot of the keepers during the 90s is the NL five haze. A lot of people kept a lot of stuff from that. So again, when I refer to the high ceiling low floor, that's another one where you could get, you know, five packs and find nothing that you like and someone can grab one and find just this killer example. Very, very much luck of the dice on that one. Yeah, yeah. And I imagine the NL five haze keepers that we still have kind of varied enough that it's hard to draw a line through them or generalize about them. Yeah, okay. I agree. Okay, so we can move on to the Durban. So just to clarify here, what is this Durban poison that people talk about? I mean, you know, I don't know what it was originally called. I think that the name attributed to it. I got to look at the old catalog from Sam. But I want to say Durban poison when we refer to Durban poison proper is what South Africa was producing is their commercial, but at the time that was being grown down there. And it was brought over by a few different people. Mel Frank had some and introduced it to the population as trying to think of who else. SSSC claims that they had a different accession completely different. And I would believe that those tended to be more tropinoline leaning whereas Mel Franks was notoriously more like aniseed, like black licorice, you know. But yeah, it was just a commercial African strain that made its way over here. And you know, I mean, it's still around still being used. So because of that, I definitely consider the baseline because it's just never gone away even though it's not necessarily known to be in a ton of stuff. It's still kept still past, you know, in clone forms and seed lines. I mean, people still, you know, bring seed lines over from South Africa granted, I doubt they're very similar to what they were in the past as far as like being a pure Durban poison. Dutch passions got very famous and that was like a Durban poison scum one. And that went around as Durban poison as well, which would be a Durban poison hybrid. So a lot of people have different ideas of Durban poison. So speaking to the version that you know, what traits are favorable? The version that I'm most familiar with is the tropinoline one. It's very potent. It, to me, it adds a lot of flavor to stuff, but the flavor also comes with that smell of witch hazel is the best way to put it. If you can go grab a bottle of witch hazel and smell it, that's typically what you'll smell with the Durban that I'm used to working with. And I'm not even sure that's pure Durban, but it's the one, the clone that runs around California the most. It's very resinous, very potent, adds flavor, those are the positive traits, yields very well, good density, finishes fast enough to be run up north. As far as breeding, like it's very unpredictable on what you will cross it with, because sometimes it will just completely dominate and it'll be seed versions of itself mostly, you know, at least smell and taste. So it takes the right partner. It's all I could say on that, like, I like, I like the tropinoline and berry combinations a lot, because I feel like it accentuates the berry. I like the tropinoline and bubblegum flavors because I bubblegum smells because I believe it brings out the flavor of the bubblegum a lot. So those would be good examples of things to bring about. Oh, that sounds really nice. Yeah, I have a bunch of the Durban bubblegums and bubblegum Durbans from CSI that he did it both ways that we're going to run. Oh, okay. I'm excited to see that. Yeah. What's not good from it that can come out? Tropinoline gives, like I said, it just dominates the gift purse. Yeah. And like, whenever we used to talk about tropinoline, he would refer to it as cat piss because some people smell like that witch hazel smell. It smells cat pissy or ammonia to them. And to me, it doesn't. It smells just like witch hazel. I don't smell piss. But he referred to it as the cat pissy thing in haze that is like literally the gift that keeps on giving that you can't chase away. It's really hard to breed away from it in haze. But it's not just haze. I mean, it's in a lot of different lines. I've seen it pop up in Afghani lines, in Pakistani pure lines, all kinds of different lines have that tropinoline trait. But it's most often associated with Jack, Harrow, Trainwreck, Durban, things like that. Yep. Okay. And again, to round this one out, there are weird possibilities with it that people haven't tried seeing considered. I mean, you mentioned the bubblegum classes. That's an interesting take on it. Yeah. I like that. I really wanted to do, so I had what we called the 95 cent C star bubblegum expression. And it was supposed to be, it was super star from Delta 9 Labs, but it's very tropinoline and super pink bubblegum. And that was the first time I'd seen the combination of those two like scents and flavors together. And it was just full on. You could taste pink bubblegum all through it. And the main complaint with the Indiana bubblegum cut is it has great smell. The flavor doesn't translate. It's just earthy, like there's, or hashy. You know what I mean? Like just in translation. But I'm pretty confident because what I've seen with the, with tropinoline and bubblegum terps in the past, that the ticket's right there in those, in those seed lines. That's wicked. Yeah. So pairing you can imagine that could be cool that you might speculate about. So with the Durban bonnet, one thing I'll say is I expected a lot of stuff like Blue Dream. And that's why I made it. I wanted some more like tropinoline. Wait, you did that? I didn't even know you did that. Yeah. Yeah. It's called trademark Chad. And oh, that's the one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's had a few different names. I had to change it because someone got mad and said that it was their name first. I changed it to trademark Chad because he said he was going to trademark it or trademarked it. So he's a Chad. So I named after him. But yeah, no, it's, it's, I, what I expected was Blue Dream type stuff. What I got was all over the place. There's even some skunky stuff in there, which I definitely did not expect from combining tropinoline and hard, like blueberry juice, you know. So there are unique things that can be done with it that are unexpected that I would not predict even in lines that I feel like I know real well. So there, I think there's still things that can be done with it. It's just really hard to, to like think about things that can be done well with tropinoline and not just automatically assume it's going to be ultra-pinoline based on having used that Durban a bunch in the past. So, but there, there is things that can be done, you know, like, so it's not something to give up on. It's kind of like Deep Chunk too. A lot of people like don't see much value in Deep Chunk. This is the line from Tom Hill. It's very earthy. It's kind of like earthy dirt, derps, like just not really great, but very resinous. It does have a decent high to it. And the, the terms people just don't like the Terps on it. It's so dense. A lot of people don't like breeding with it. But it's, it's one of those lines where if you find the right partner for it, the Terps kind of set aside themselves and let the, well, I shouldn't say terms, but what would you call it? Canobinoids. Canobinoids, everything passed through, you know. And yeah, it's, you wouldn't expect it, but it's cool when it happens, you know. And that told me that maybe there are more novel things can be done with Deep Chunk that people haven't really thought of, you know. So I think we'll be doing more stuff with that in the future too. All right. A little shout out to Deep Chunk there. Yeah. Okay. So the purple, purple, purple prints, Tom Hill, King of purples. There you go. Okay, so we're moving on to Afghani number one. Yeah, Afghani number one. Who introduced that? Is that another Mel Frank one? It might be. I don't want to get that wrong. It's been a minute. But Afghani one is an old quote unquote pre-Soviet Afghani. It's supposed to be pure, acrid ammonia. And then I've heard people say green apple all the way to green apple. Like I, all the Afghani one I saw was all acrid ammonia. Some was more loose-budded. And I didn't really expect that it's, it's the Afghani one seed lines very not uniform. But it is what I expect now, knowing older Afghanis. Like it's not all like super dense, frosty, dank. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot, there's a very low selling in Afghani one, but there was some really cool shit in there too. Okay. So in terms of like what you wouldn't want to see coming out of it? What I wouldn't want to see in Afghani one, the smokes very harsh. That's one thing I remember most about like the cut that we ran was that it was very harsh. A lot of people didn't like smoking it. It wasn't a pleasant smoke. It would make everyone cough. It hurt to smoke it. It wasn't because of bad gross. It was just a very harsh. I don't know if it's because of the oils or whatever. Yeah, it was always super harsh. Very hashy. A lot of what I crossed it to just looked like itself. So unless you really loved that plant, it wasn't super desirable. I remember Neville's quotes about it was that it was like an uninspiring, boring high. He thought it was very bland, but he was like I said, he was into the haze type. The speedy, like very, very different type of high than like a narcotic numbing, dumbing down of Afghani one. So in the over the years, like if you look at old high times too, it wasn't just Neville. There's other people that talk about Afghani one and just weren't really interested in it. Some people like are the connoisseur thought Afghanis were going to be the end of cannabis as we know it with that being at the spearhead. So there are some undesirable traits, desirable traits though, like resin production. That dumbed down narcotic high could be used and modified to be something more complex, you know, combined with something hazy. There's so many different directions you could take Afghani one. And I don't know that all of them have been done per se, but I don't know that there's really any good seed lines that represent Afghani one still. And that's also an issue. What is your earloom Afghani? So that was from a guy named bite me off of the Mr. Nice forums. He was a dude that was a smuggler back in Florida during the late 80s, early 90s. And he'd handed me a bunch of different bags of seed and only a few had actual labels on what they were. Like we had Afghani, we had this one called God, and it was it was predated God, but so I had nothing to do with God, but that was one of the first things I asked when I saw. We had a Korean Afghani. I've been one more and then there was like numbers one through 14. And it was just big bags of old bag seed. And basically it was all the seeds he had kept as a smuggler that he thought was good weed, you know, and that's where it came from. He didn't have a lot of info on it. Best I can gather is like some kind of super skunk hybrid because it lines up with that really well. But it also has very narrow leaves and a lot of outcrosses. So I just don't know what that is. Interesting. Yeah, it's a totally fascinating one to me, but it's also very like sexually unstable, you know, usually the skunkier stuff is more sexually unstable. And I can see why people would have right away from that because it was so sexually unstable. But yeah, it's one of those lines that I felt was really, really special and kind of like a little time capsule. Yeah, but I assume you wouldn't necessarily relate it to Afghani number one, right? It's just for it, or do you think you could still. So there are some theories out there that the Afghan tea used in Maple Leaf Indica was actually Afghani one. That is a legitimate theory. In saying that, it would also be saying that Neville may not have been so honest about what he used in Afghan tea, but by the time or in Maple Leaf Indica and Super Skunk as the Afghan tea. But during that time he wasn't even, he didn't like Sam the Skunk Man by that point. And I don't see his ego letting him attribute anything to Sam if he did use it. That accurate nature is definitely in the heirloom Afghani. That's in Afghani one. Yeah. There is a similarity there. Now it doesn't mean that it had Afghani one in it. It could have been a similar type Afghani for sure. Yeah. But it's in there. So yeah, it's hard to say. Okay. Okay. In terms of the Afghani number one, again, are there weird parts that people haven't taken yet? I would say so. But like I said, I don't know if the seed line is out there to be gotten pure anymore. Seeds have been selling it for a long time, but it slowly drifted away from what most people knew as Afghani one and nobody was really happy with what they were getting there, which it could just be taking it in a bad direction over the years and be the same line. But yeah, it's one of those ones where I don't know, I don't know if it's still possible to even get a pure seed line like that that represents what it was. Okay. Well, it's a good one to cover off. Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to say about that one? No, I think that's that's about it. All right. Well, we can move on to a favorite old school blueberry. So we had a little debate on whether they should go into old school or modern. Yeah. I really do think it belongs just like at that mid 90s to late 90s period kind of pushes it back into that Dutch era of being old school. Yeah, I mean, I could wax poet about blueberry forever. All right. I'll start with the basic question. So how wide or narrow do you think it is? Okay. Blueberry proper more narrow than most lines now. Yeah. Because of DJ's approach. I think so is the wacky reading approach. And I say that with a lot of love. Wacky crossing two different completely different opposite types over several generations will make for some weird shit. Yeah. So basically he he kept widening and didn't do very much narrowing. He kept widening and inbreeding. Okay. Yeah. Like the two like, I don't even know how. That's like the opposite intention. Like, like from a reading perspective, like thinking about that way, I would like if I tried to rationalize that, I would be like, okay, well, that doesn't make any sense. I'm doing the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve. You know, like, am I trying to widen it or am I trying to make it totally inbred? These are two different directions. And by doing like crossing using roughly two or three plants and crossing sativa looking to indica looking in the same line multiple generations is literally doing opposite work. Yeah, I see. I see what you mean now. Yeah. I see what you mean. So he it's inbreeding in the sense that he's kept it within the family, so to speak. Yes. He wasn't using similar individuals within the family. Correct. He was using, yeah, divergent kind of, yeah. Interesting. Okay. It's a very interesting artistic approach to the breeding for sure. Okay. Well, what traits do you like seeing past? So I like seeing actual berry smells past because the high to that is what like I always associate with anti-anxiety high for myself. And that doesn't necessarily ring true for everyone on earth. So please don't apply it to yourself. Some people will smoke blueberry and fucking hate it and like make make some flip out. So I definitely don't want to insinuate that it works away for everyone. But for me, if I have blueberry scents like blueberry jam type scents or even blueberry muffin type scents, I know that generally speaking, it's going to be a mild happy ride for me. It's not going to do it's not going to yank me to a place that like all of a sudden I'm like in the corner going fuck. Oh, I messed up today. We shouldn't you know, like it doesn't do that. And that's what I appreciate about it. And that's why I love it so much. That's a trait that I love is that Berry scent because of how it affects me. As far as other traits, there's beautiful purples in there. In my opinion, DJ has some of the most beautiful unique looking work that's ever existed. So yeah, there's a lot of me does seem to have a fairly distinctive look. Yes, it does. I can spot it in anything like I really can. I've worked with all of it enough to where I can spot blueberry in anything. Very distinctive. And yeah, like I said, there's so many different families of blueberry, but they're all the same family like DJ took it like there's a blue moonshine direction in the old time moonshine direction. There was there was flow, which isn't even the Berry selection, but it's like two of the three parents as opposed to all three parents. It's a completely separate line, but still related, which, you know, still causes some inbreeding issues. What else is there? Vanna Luna, which is like the blueberry sativa direction. There's F 13, which is also another attempt at the blueberry sativa direction. And his modern blueberry like to me is more like a little squad Afghani type, which, you know, a lot of people typically think of blueberry sativa. You're a modern DJ blueberry. You're not going to get stuff very close to what a lot of people expect from blueberry sativa back in the day. Yeah. Nice. Good summary. What would you not like to see past? Okay. So a lot of trouble I've had with blueberry has been when I breed with it inside itself and don't outcross it all and have no outcrosses anywhere in it. There's a lot of mutations. There's albinism, which is a horrible trait, in my opinion, where, you know, the leaves grow out white and you can't, there's no energy for the plant. Can't reflect light, right? So, yeah, there's a lot of really negative mutations and recessive traits and blueberry that exist. And what I've noticed is with a single outcross, if you use the right male or female from the blue line and outcross. Those mutations almost immediately disappear. And you can get a lot of the great traits that blueberry brings in hybrids, which is why its popularity, in my opinion, took off when people were making hybrids with it. Some of the most famous lines out there like the blue dream or what else is a good blueberry? Bubbleberry, the original bubbleberry, things like that are so beloved. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, a question is very close to you. Are there other directions or parts that you can see still remain to be taken? Hmm. I tried to cover all the bases. Yeah. But yeah, like one thing I didn't expect when crossing it to like triangle was a bunch of Chinese food terms. Like, there are a lot of different savoury. Yeah, berry savoury. Yeah. Extremely savoury with no berry. Yeah. There's a lot of different directions and unique directions. You can take a good, like really good selection of blueberry that don't even necessitate having berry smells or any of it. You know what I mean? So it's a good line for pretty much anything. Exploration. At least the blue bonnet line is. Yeah. For exploration. I don't want to, I mean like referring to DJ's lines proper. I would say in hybrids is their best. It's hard to say low ceiling high floor because there aren't a lot of blueberry clones caps that are like specifically from DJ's lines that people are like, this is my DJ short blueberry cut. It rocks. It rocks the house. I'm passing it around and it's made it around. That didn't happen a lot. We have DJ's 98 selection from his F4 line that he selected that's passed around a lot. There's different blueberry clones out there with no real good provenance. Like Dabney blue is one. What's another one? Even my right Brio G the original blueberry muffin cut was the provenance was we don't know that it was directly from DJ's. There's a lot of blueberry cuts out there that are like that. Yeah. Okay. It's kind of it's cool to know though that the presumably then that the blueberry scent profile isn't confined to that family necessarily that like it's possible to see it crop up in other places. Man, there was a sour diesel crossed Irene and like I cannot prove that Irene doesn't have blueberry in it in my but if not that sour diesel Irene was some of the most blueberry cereal blueberry muffin type stuff that I've ever smoked. It's amazing. Absolutely phenomenal. And it pops up fairly regularly in that hybrid. So when you think of diesel and Irene, would you think that that was a possibility or is that a complete surprise? It was a complete surprise. I mean, OG Kush some some expressions of it you can get are almost like sweet cereal. So that part I can see like almost like a trick cereal. Having it a sour diesel and Irene like burnt rubber and Irene, I would think would pull it more towards like this burnt rubber like harsh OG tones. OG Kush type tones, but it's not. I mean, they're there in some of those expressions, but like that expression was full on blueberry. It's we call it the sourine 16 is phenomenal. Phenomenal. Some of us keep it still. Amazing. Yeah. Sounds like a very cool plot. People getting blueberry from things like Big Bud. So there's also that, you know, like it's out there. There's different things putting out berry towns for sure. Nice. Okay. Anything else on the blueberry map? Just that I own JD short soul. That's about it. That's about it. I think that rounds out our coverage of like the older generation. Yeah. And I think we can move on to what we would consider some of the more modern building blocks. And you just mentioned it, but we can start with the OG Kush, I think. OG Kush. So it's best we know this traces back to the triangle Kush as best we know. And as far as triangle Kush, a lot of people think it's related to Kim 91 could be. Might just be similar. We just don't know yet. There's no like facts there yet. But triangle Kush seems to be the origin point for OG Kush. It's the best way to describe OG Kush in a roundabout way. It has a very specific bud structure. Does very low calyx leaf ratio. I think that's where it goes lower high. I always forget that how that goes. But there's not a lot of stuff to trim on an OG Kush. And that's why one of the reasons that people loved it so much. Very dense, cushy, some, you know, like it depends on the cut you have and how you grow it. It could be really soapy, piney. It can be fuel-y, gassy. It can be earthy as fuck if it's grown real mid-Z. But yeah, and then there's also sweet version of OG. It's very potent. And I think for me, the high, like the best way to equate it would be the most well-rounded high of any of the clones that I've run. Or plants or lines or any of it. Like it seems to have the best of the Afghani type highs that people most associate with Afghanis being narcotic or whatever. It's also very cerebral and it gets people twisted. Like it'll make it so you can't drive if you smoke a good OG and like get twisted on it. So that's major components. It breeds really well. A lot of the reasons I think OG took off was because it was during the early days of the collectives. And it was a clone that you could hybridize and it routinely give you over 25% THC. And because collectives were so driven at THC numbers, I think it was almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy that OG Kush got used so much. Because it was the one thing reliably passing those THC numbers. What were bad things or bad? What were less favorable traits to come out of it? The lank, bro. Nobody likes the OG lank. Nobody likes to have to stock their plants or stake it and like net it and all that shit. I don't like having to do that. I've almost lost my eye a thousand times on stakes because of OG Kush. But yeah, I'd say that is the main bad trait for OG Kush. There's not a lot of bad that comes from OG Kush to be honest. So OG Kush may cause blindness. Yeah, right? It may. I have so many friends that have had their eyes permit scars by their eyes from getting hit with stakes. But yeah, the flop, the lank, that's the most undesirable trait in OG Kush. In my opinion, I'm trying to think of any other undesirable trait and there really isn't. And it's a remark. It's super consistent, right? That structure. Because even in hybrids that I've grown in the US ones, you definitely see it all the time. Yeah, it's very consistent for the structure, the high, the smell, the potency. And I really think just because it made everyone look like a professional breeder once you had it. You know what I mean? Once you have OG Kush, every single seed line that you're kicking out crossed with it is upwards of 23% THC if grown. Okay. You know what I mean? If grown mid-Z, it'll be about 23% plus. So it made a lot of people really look more effective and knowledgeable and just effective at breeding because they were using OG. But then we saw what happened with that. Everybody did the same thing and got the same idea and realized the same thing. Yeah. In a sense, you could call it a family, but really it's like a collection of different cuts that people have kept over time. It's like a collection of different bag seeds of one cut, you know what I mean? Or a bag seed of a bag seed of one cut that constantly kept that expression going out. Yeah. I wanted to try this question for this one because it does tend to be cuts. Yeah. How would you go about making this into a regular line? So I saw one person try to make an OG Kush seed line using an Afghani out cross. The Afghani out cross that he used was autoflowering and kind of hermaphroditic. But I think he had the right idea in using an Afghani type because that'll help pull down some of that link. I think Urkel has made excellent out crosses. So maybe an Urkel regular seed line makes excellent out crosses to OG. But for just keeping OG like OG, I would recommend a Bubba back cross seed line. Yeah. So you get some of the structure back of Bubba. Bubba Kush already has OG Kush in it. So you're reinforcing a lot of the OG Kush traits while bringing in some of that structure. I like Bubba. Bubba is very different to the OG. It's squat, slow. Sometimes. You can grow Bubba lanky too, almost like OG. But for the most part it has way better structure than Bubba if you're growing it well. I've seen Bubba grow lanky and be quite lanky in poor situations. I think that's a good call though on how that's a good approach for attempting a regular line with the OG. There's plenty of Bubba BX seed lines out there that are regular seed lines using Bubba. We have one with the out cross being the heirloom Afghani. And it just crossed with Bubba extremely well, made for a true reading Bubba. Everything looked like Bubba and it smelled like Bubba from the line. Maybe a little bit skunkier, but it was pretty Bubba. And that would make for an excellent out cross. Any kind of mail from that would be an excellent out cross to make an OG Kush seed line. Okay, so last question which I think for this group of plants is a funny one. Are there possibilities that we haven't seen yet with the OG? Fuck no. Yeah, we've seen it all. I've seen everything with that motherfucker. I can't really think of anything off hand that could be done with OG better. But yeah, that's definitely one that I can't really think of anything that needs to be done. Fair enough. I thought maybe we may as well cover up Bubba since you've already mentioned it a bunch of times. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it is kind of a baseline. It's not in everything. It's not as popular as it once was. But like you have stuff like Cushmans, I think that has Bubba in it, right? Yeah, I mean it's just. So the basic thing is I guess like, what would you like to see passed from the Bubba and what would you not? I'd like to see everything passed from Bubba, but I'm a Bubba freak, you know? So I like Bubba as is. Some people don't like Bubba. I like Bubba a lot. So I like seeing Bubba pure. We had a really great clone that we kept. We called Bubba Sativa. It came out of Bubba S1s that were likely pollen contaminated because this was such an outlier. And I haven't seen it in Bubba S1s again in either a CSI. But it had a big, what would be traditionally more like something people associate more as quote unquote Sativa structure. Big huge colas with the big pyramid shape at the top. But it smelled like Bubba. It had like the high of OG Cush, which Bubba doesn't necessarily have on its own. And it was just so fucking good and smelled so good like a amped up, turped Bubba. I've been chasing it ever since. I've been looking for that ever since. And since I can't find an S1s, it just has to be a product of pollen contamination, which means who knows what it was. But I would really like to find something very similar again. So in terms of the high, like you were saying, I imagine, sorry, I imagine what you're trying to say is that the high was a better rounded high than the normal Bubba. Yeah, it wasn't just narcotic. I mean, Bubba does have a well rounded high for the most part. This was what I would call a no-sealing high where you can keep smoking it and getting more and more high and higher. But it just didn't have any of the anxiety effects that I get with stuff that usually is like that, the no-sealing high. So it was cool. It was really cool and unique. Okay. So I guess we're kind of in this zone already. But are there many paths that you see are still untrodden when it comes to Bubba? Yeah. Bubba Sativa itself was so rare that like the fact that that could be created from Bubba, even from a pollen contamination tells me that there's other stuff out there that definitely could be. We did a Bubba rose flow, which was a old Dutch passion flow release, really early release of DJ Shorts flow. And we crossed that. And on its own, that rose flow was not ideal. It was very sparse, not good density, little to no resin production. It was so inbred. It was so fucking inbred. It was horrible. Like every plant looked pretty identical. It had the leaf cannibalism thing. They were all bright red and beautiful that way in color. But the rest of it was just not right. But we crossed it to Bubba and it immediately took all the best. Like I haven't found a bad plant in that Bubba rose flow at all. So taking something that was like that I wouldn't normally use or kept. I was really interested to see how it would go with Bubba and a few other things just because it is so wild. And Bubba tamed it. Bubba tamed it really well. So yeah, I mean, it was a complete like insensi, like really like Nag Champa incense Bubba. Like you don't see that a lot. So there's definitely unique novel directories to take it. I think. Is that called Red Menace? Yes. What is that one? Okay. Yeah, that's a Bubba rose flow. Cool. Okay. Anything else you'd like to say about the Bubba before we move on? Just the rocks and it like it sucks it and not more people use it or as or are as familiar with it as they were in the 90s. Because for a while it held its own kind of like OG Kush like Bubba was in you'd see like all these Bubba hybrids and collectives that you could buy and smoke. I remember Bubba wreck was big back in the day. There's all kinds of Bubba hybrids. But nowadays it's kind of it's not used as much. It's still there. But like I would like to see it injected more into the culture because it's different than OG Kush. It's different than Coaches. You know, I like it. On a personal note, when I was still flailing around in my first couple of years of growing, I grew out some Bubba as ones and they were the best things that I'd ever grown at that point. And maybe my first real encounter with growing really good wheat myself. So I think it will always hold a spot for me. So there's also some stuff that me and CSI talk about or CSI talks about with me, I should say, in going through his Bubba S1 populations. There's one that he found that he loves. And it calls it like Lemonhead Candy Bubba. And I don't see a lot of lemon in Bubba, but this was an outlier that does pop up. And there's other things that are more darker colored and blue colored in Bubba that he refers to as the blue indica. And so there's a lot of stuff in those Bubba S1. A lot of people think Bubba is just Bubba. But if you go through those S1s and go through enough of them, you'll see some wild variances that stand out and are completely unique to anything else that we have out there. I mean, we have Lemonheads Candy stuff, but the high to it is supposed to be phenomenal. And then we have things like the bomb threat Bubba and other different expressions of Bubba that are like, you know, slightly lemony and really potent. Yeah. Yeah, that's nice. Get yourself a pack of Bubba S1s. Don't be stupid people. There you go. Yeah, and I think CSI is doing a round of he's doing another round of Bubba S1. It's coming back. It's coming back. Yes, sir. Okay, so I think we can move on to another favorite, the Chem91. Yes. I already know the answer to some of these questions, but let's just go over it. How wide or narrow would you consider the 91? Narrow. I would consider it very narrow. Yeah. And we've mentioned it many times, but there is plenty of circulation that it is itself in S1. That is correct. Yeah. There's a lot of speculation on that, but you know, who knows. It's very hard to prove at this point. All right. What traits would you like to see passed and what traits would you not like to see passed in the 91? Typically with 91, the traits that people want to pass are the potency. I've smelled 91 turned up to like a 30 volume as far as Terpsco in a regular seed line based on Chem91. So if I could get those Terps fast at a Chem91, that would be phenomenal, but I don't often see that. Because like when you can see, when you get to smell what probably Chem91 smelled like as a clone, like originally before it was all beat up, like it was phenomenal. And I can see why it was kept around because it was so unique. Yeah. It's phenomenal. Do you have words for it? Because not many people I think have hazarded like an account of its smell before, I feel like. Ooh, I'll try. I'll try. So immediately when I think of Chem91 and trying to list the smell, I go for the ammonia acrid similar to Afghani one. Ammonia acrid is in there. But there is something else in there that I, curry is not right. But it's not. There's like a meatiness. Is there something? Some kind of savory there. And then Chem91, ChemDI 95 that I was referring to from Madelie that was like a, like Chem91 turned up to a 30. That was almost more prevalent than the ammonia or any of that stuff. And that's when I was like, oh my God, this is so freaking unique. And I had smelled that smell in Chem91, but never to that volume, you know. Yeah. It's hard to say like calling it a curry isn't quite accurate, but it's savory in there. There's ammonia. There's burnt tennis ball rubber. I think that's the way most people would describe it first. And in the clone as it is now, that's the most apparent smell is like that tennis ball, burnt rubber. But there are other smells in Chem91 that can be coaxed out of it for sure. And some of those are some of my favorite smells from her. Yeah. And again, another personal anecdote and I'm no authority on this. I've only grown a few S ones, but one of the things that I did smell in my favorite one was this kind of like. What I call like a, quite a dark smell, like a charred meat kind of smell. Interesting. I wonder if you're describing what I'm talking about. It's very likely it's, it's, it is so hard to describe that smell. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as always, we're just talking in impressions. So yeah. Yeah. And another thing that I, I recently saw from the Chem91 that I had never seen before was a very soapy expression that reminded me of OG Kush. It wasn't exactly like OG Kush. But I see why people are like, Oh, that smells like OG Kush. You know what I mean? Like they would, it was a scent in that direction of OG Kush, but I don't think it was the same thing. But I see why people are like, Oh, I can smell why that's related to OG if they come across that expression in the 91 S one. Yep. And again, from my part, you know, home growers impression. Yeah. I did run TKS ones and 91 S ones in the same run. And I did see some quite interesting or like smell would taste some interesting overlaps. So yeah, I can also see it from my very fragmentary experience. What traits would you not like to see past from the 91? So, so 91 has the, the lovely trait of forever throwing white hairs. Long past its maturation date, like long past when you should harvest it will keep kicking them. I don't like that trait. Some people just ignore it and don't even notice it, which blows my mind that some people don't notice that trait, but it's very apparent trait to it. The other trait is the leaf cannibalistic trait where instead of going through some essence and just no fading out slowly, its leaves start just crumbling off and like it's a leaf necrosis that happens as it fades. That's not a good look. That's not, that's not a good look at all. It's really hard to get beautiful pictures of Kim 91 and flower. Like, no, exactly. That's what I'm trying to say. Like, for people who are used to seeing modern cookie type weed, and that's their like mark benchmark for what we should look like. Kim 91 would look very ugly. Right. Like, it would look very ugly to most people. I think it's ugly to me. It's ugly as fuck. I think it's an ugly aspect. Yeah. Like, ugly as fuck. Kim 91 ugly as fuck. Has great traits, has great breeding traits. Whereas the fuck I think has nothing, but yeah. Kim 91 for sure has some good breeding traits. I think that's a generally, that's a commonly shared opinion, I think. Anybody in our crew who is going to fuck all shares that fucking opinion with me too. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, in terms of the frequency of these things passing, that is also really consistent. Right. The potency is consistent. The leaf necrosis is consistent as well. Yeah. And Kim 91 dominance. Like, I mean, it tends to make stuff look like Kim 91 for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, because again, this is a clone, I'm going to ask that question. How would you think you would approach making it into a regular line? Afghani one, like using the old Afghani one seed line, not a modern one, but like all that. The old one that the La AFI clone that we had came from, I would go with that, find a regular male in there and use it. Kim 91 is so Afghani dominant that I think taking it any other direction would be pointless. Yeah. If you were... If you don't have access to something like that, I imagine a common one is like an RG type. Yeah, I just think that that would just take it in one specific direction that would muddle it up with OG. But to keep it Kimi, well, you know, Matt did great using the Kimdi I-95, which I wouldn't have thought to use because it was such a polyhybrid. I remember when he told me about it, I was kind of not interested as much because of the polyhybrid nature, the Kimdi and I-95 is a legend, triangle and a star dog. If I remember correctly is the I-95. Right. So there's a lot in there. And I was thinking, well, if you're trying to find Kim91, why are you using all this stuff that's potentially all over the place? But Matt knew his shit and he nailed it, man. So for a regular seed line, I'd say, and it probably is accessible for some people. What do you call it? Resurrection is what he called it. The seed line. Phenomenal. Nothing better. I'd use that all day, every day for Kim91. That should have been my first thought, to be honest. But yeah. Going from scratch, I'd use like an acrid Afghani. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything else you want to say on the 91? Just that if not, so we're here, he would be trying to argue how beautiful it is. And he can't right now. I mean, okay. I think if you're a bit more of a contrarian, I can see it though. You kind of get tired of seeing the Instagram stuff and the ugly stuff starts to look bitter in a way. I think it's just because it's been in his life for so long, like it's like talking about one of his kids call it ugly. He's like, wait, man, it's not ugly. You know, you can't do that. Oh yeah. I've seen a couple of times when he obviously got triggered by you saying that. I think the last time we spoke about it, I said, watch, I'm going to make you triggered on this. And then I did it and made him get triggered. I love it though. I love the predictability of it. Well, we can move on to an adjacent one, which is another big, big, big favorite, sour diesel. Yeah. Again, as we know, there are multiple cuts, but we'll do our best. Okay, how narrow or wide? Depending on which cut you're using. Let's say, when I'm referring to sour, I'm going to refer to ECSD, Chaco, the one that most of us hold. I'm going to refer to that cut. And that one itself, I, you know, there is some variance in super skunk. It was a skunk one, Afghan tea. However, like sour seems to breed pretty true to sour. Like in my experience, as long as you're not crossing into crazy polyhybrids that are bringing in tons of other stuff. Like if you're crossing it, like for example, the blueberry or something very, very true breeding for, for a few traits. Sour can be very, very, very uniform. Predictable. Okay. So within that uniformity, what are the traits that people like to see? Or that you like to see? In sour. So I've talked about this a lot. Specifically the dog tongue trait is what we call it. And that's so hard to describe. Like I put up pictures of it and circled the dog tongues and people still miss it. Or they, they don't get that I'm referring to a very rounded type leaf, not a pointed leaf, not just any small leaf in the bud. And the way that the pattern of arrangement of these dog tongue leaves is one of the traits of sour. And it's how, to me, how sour is easily identifiable, these specific traits. And those traits are carried from super skunk as well. Scent trait, burnt rubber, skunky all day to me. More burnt rubber than skunky, definitely. But what if it's other major traits is that it has this wonderful like thing at least on your palate, almost like thick oils on your tongue that you can taste and go after you smoke. And a lot of people really enjoy that. So that's another trait from sour. And the high, it is very potent. And I would equate it to something like maybe closer to the OG Kush high, but more of a traditionally quote unquote sativa type experience. More cerebral than just OG Kush. Yeah. Okay. For most people. It's also got that. Hate staying things. But alongside what you call the dog tongue leaves. It's also got those swollen bracts. Right. Yeah. The swollen bracts. Again, that's another thing from super skunk. You'll see it in G's old. You'll see it in all kinds of different super skunk plants. But yeah, the swollen bracts and the, the, the pattern of the dog tongue leaves. Like for me, that's the telltale signs of sour. Mm hmm. What are less favorable traits that you see sometimes come through stretch just like OG Kush. People hate the stretch of sour. Wanky as fuck. Um, it's okay. So another thing with sour is you can grow it, nail it. Perfect. And then lose all of it in the drying cure. It's very easy to get, to get midsy sour, like put all that time and effort in and just lose it in the cure really easy. Yeah. Even to people who are really experienced in good with curing and drying it can happen. So I think that's one of the traits with sour, like that burnt rubber can fade pretty fast and turned into just like musty, boofy smell over time. It dissipates pretty fast. So that's not a very desirable trait, but when it's first harvested and cured right like that, it's phenomenal. That smell. Yep. Okay. Okay. Because it is a clone. How would you go about making it into a regular line? Ooh, sour into a regular line. You know, some of the best seed lines of sour have been combinations of different OG Kush hybrids and sour. Yeah. Um, OG Kush combines really well with sour for whatever reason, like whether it's the high, the way it smells when they combine, but like it is different than just sour. It's very OG based when that happens. So if I'm going to make a regular seed line of sour, I would probably use one of the many regular diesel seed lines because that'll get you closer back to super skunk and double up on the super skunk trait, which we think is a double recessive and reinforce that in all the project. So yeah, I would choose a diesel regular seed line from anyone that has that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the other, obviously we just mentioned it, but what is your take on diesel money one like crosses? I mean, it, it all, like that's a hard one because I think it's great because it double reinforces a lot of traits, but that would also be presupposing that 91 has super skunk. But it does block in a lot of the same traits. So it's really hard to argue it plant wise. Yeah. Or I guess the other, the other quite popular theory is that if there's no super skunk in 91, there might still be 91 in the sour. Oh yeah. For sure. I think there's for sure. And anyone is sour. I don't think that's very debatable. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Are there weird possibilities with the sour that people haven't considered? I'm sure there is a lot of, like I said, most of what we've seen with sour tends to be in like a strawberry sour OG direction. People trying to remake headband as they, they have heard that it's made, you know, but I haven't seen a lot of novel sour stuff. I mean, CBF did his strawberry sour, which is one of my favorite lines of all time, the strawberry cough, strawberry cream, which is supposedly strawberry cough S1, the strawberry cream East Coast sour diesel is one of my favorite lines of all time. And it was because it was so unique, but taking, taking that strawberry burnt rubber type going strawberry jam type Terps on it, it's insane. It's wonderful. I think there's so many novel. Thorefton sour can be taken even like my blue sour. I love that. You didn't see a lot of blueberry sour out there. You know, there's a lot of different directions to take it that, that they just haven't yet. Okay. So actually more potential than I, than I thought for something as popular and as long held as that. Okay. That's cool. All right. Anything else on the sour map that you wanted to address? Just to say that like sour was probably a few different clones early on. So trying to find the original sour is kind of a loop point. What would be considered original if they were all kind of popped at the same time? You know? Yeah. Yeah. That's the only note I would make on that. Yep. Good point. Okay. Well, we move on to another favorite in this crowd, which is the purple oracle. Yeah. Oh, real quick before we exit sour, I just wanted to make a quick note for people in our Patreon. They are able to see a kind of a sour episode we did with cloth and it's available to be seen if you're part of the Patreon. It wasn't finished and it's not a like produced, well produced or edited. It's in its entirety. But if you're part of the Patreon, you can see that as well. Yeah. Definitely a very interesting piece of content still. Yeah. For the nerds. Okay. So the oracle. How wide or narrow? It's wide and narrow. At the same time, I would say like relative to a lot of lines, it's narrow. But when you explore oracle, like the oracle type is about 20%. Of what you'll see in self oracle, which means that there's a lot of variability in my opinion. You know, like if 20% look like oracle from S1s and there's pretty wide swath, even though comparatively to other lines, it's probably more narrow. Okay. Favorable and unfavorable traits. One of the best grapes ever. One of the best grapes ever. A lot of its outcrosses have beautiful purple colors. It's not necessarily consistent for outcrossing purple, despite its name. And even grown, there's been a lot of like green grows of oracle, that same clone where it just doesn't go purple. Grape. Grape extreme. Yeah. One of the best grapes. Period. What else? It doesn't, like it's leaf to calcium ratio kind of sucks. It's squat. I don't really like its branching. Short node, just like inter node spacing. Not desirable at all. And it does breed pretty well for that trait. Yeah. I think it's mostly grape. And it does well in outcrosses. Yeah. Yeah. You already mentioned the OG, pairing really well with it. I can see it from the point of view already of what you're saying about its structure. Yep. What, so you mentioned the grape, what's its potency like? I mentioned it's not one of the more potent ones. So this is a weird one, because testing wise, 18% THC, right? Okay. Some people, some people don't get any effect from oracle. Some people think it's just completely mild, worthless to smoke. Me, that shit gives me the fear every time. And it's not necessarily a potent thing. It's just a quality of the high, that just does not mix well with me. Anything is very oracle dominant. I just don't smoke anymore. It puts me in bad places every time. It's really reliable. Yeah. Okay. So potency is debatable. Very, very, very much depends on the individual. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good point. You mentioned it's kind of less, less ideal structure. Are there other things that are less, less than ideal about, about it or traits that it may pass? I mean, with the 20% being oracle types, you know, there's probably a good 60% that are just kind of midsy. Yeah. In the S1s. So, yeah, there's a lot of undesirable in it. Like, muted grape, just not really great high, not really resonance. You have the OGKB mutant type, which most people call like OGKB, but it's just basically, how do I explain that? This is not crinkle leafs and it's not webbed leaves. Like people refer to OGKB. That's not a correct way to describe it, but the leaves overlap on each other. Like there's three leaves to overlap on top and almost look like duck's foot type, but they're not wed to like a tree duck's foot from Wally Duck. But yeah, it has that weird leaf overlaying trait like that. And you'll see it a lot in oracle outcrosses and S1s. Yeah. And that's where like the OGKB type comes from. It's from a pure oracle mutation that can be considered undesirable looking at it. But, OGKB is an amazing stellar example. You know, like so, while it may look undesirable in the end, that's a desirable plan. Yeah. Apart from it pairing well with the OG, what are the pairings with the oracle that you've seen as successful? Let's see. Chem91 does well with oracle. Sour did well with oracle. Bubblegum did well with oracle. The white did amazing with oracle. The things that let that like 20% expression of oracle fly through real well like the white where it just turns up the resin production and lets oracle shine, or the oracle bubblegums, like all that shit was fire. It was good. That's a lot of, like Rascal did a lot of great shit with oracle. He's one of my, like other than CSI, who's done the most work with oracle. Yeah. Rascal's hybrids with oracle early on, which is phenomenal. That's what I constantly reference when I think about like awesome oracle hybrids, is Rascal's oracle. Does it still give you the fear in those outcrosses? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just so beautiful though, like the white oracle I love to grow just because it is so fucking beautiful. Just like picture oracle with like the resin of the white just cake, leaf tip to leaf. It was beautiful. Yeah. I didn't like smoking it just because it affected me very negatively. Well, everybody around me like smoking it, you know, but yeah, kind of ruined it for me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Again, because it's a clone, how would you go about trying to make it into a regular line? Hmm. What would be a good oracle outcross to maintain the grape skunk one? In my opinion, like, oracle is a combination of something crossed to skunk one, because in the oracle outcrosses, you can see a lot of the skunk one type Terps, oniony, cheesy and all that stuff's in there. So, maybe a skunk one type outcross that is leaning towards grape. Yeah. There was a good regular seed line that I had that was called Cush skunk that was super grapey and dense like oracle that I think is amazing, regular seed outcross. And I think that's still around, peak seeds, it's a Cush skunk. That's a good tip. Yeah. Okay. They're under hardcore, real quick, hardcore underrated company, peak seeds. They don't get a lot of mentions except from the old school dudes that ran it. They're still around. Their northern berry was great. They did a lot of berry work that was good. They're Cush skunk where it doesn't have like a fancy name. That's like kind of like Cush skunk. It was phenomenal. It was phenomenal. So, yeah. Shout out to them. Gotta give them their dues. You know, because I don't think they get, they didn't do a lot of advertising anywhere and they're a great company. All right. Any, any weird alternative paths that people haven't yet taken that you could see them taking? You know, one of my favorite was the Urkel Trey Dog from High on Lonesome. It made something that they called dog vaults and there was a cut from it called the poodle nuts that is still wholly unique to anything else in cannabis that I've seen. The structure, the scent, all of it. It's a phenomenal cut. It did have a similar structure to Urkel. Really tight, inter-node spacing, with the high, all of it made up for it. It had a little bit of a hermit trait. Like when you have something that's special and I could smoke it. Like it's one of a few Urkel hybrids I could smoke. We have something like that then, yeah. And again, all to say that that was a completely wholly unique expression for Urkel that I hadn't seen yet in a cross. I think there's a lot more out there that can be done like that if people think outside of the box. Like High on Lonesome did back then. What kind of flavor were you getting from that? You know, grapey a lot, except there was some skunkiness to it. But the one thing that I remember most about poodle nuts was when we took cuts of it in veg, it would stink up fucking, you know, a 3,000 square foot house, just taking cuts off one single mom. It smelled like skunk. Nothing smelled skunkier than veg material of poodle nuts ever. Nothing compares. Isn't that something you all have said about the Urkel as well in general? Yeah. You can get a lot of skunky smells out of it in veg. Yeah. No, even in flour, like the first four weeks of flour, it's super skunky. And then it just turns great all of a sudden. And it's kind of disappointing in that sense. But yeah, that's how she goes. Really interesting. I wonder if it's possible that that could be drawn out. I think it could be coaxed out. I definitely think it could. I think even in that tray dog, if you ran enough of that Urkel tray dog, I think you could have done it. I think you could find that now. And Heinlein's had made a bunch of it. I still have some old seeds of it, too, of Dog's Walt's original from him. Cool. Yeah. Okay. Anything else you'd like to say about the Urkel? I'd just shout out to CSI, High and Lonesome, Bodey, all the other people who inspired me to even be using Urkel in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, we move on to move on to cookies. To round out the modern building blocks. The modern building blocks, it would be very hard. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, the modern building blocks, it would be very hard to leave cookies out, despite it may be being a hybrid, you know, of Urkel types, OG types and whatever f1 derb is. It itself has become a very modern, very base line, because it's very hard to find any modern lines that do not have cookies in them. It used to be that way with OG, when cookies made its introduction, there was also a big boom of seed makers coming in. and like OG it was a plant where anybody could make crosses with it and it would look very decent on Instagram because it would all look like cookies and cookies is this very frosty dense purple black beautiful plants and yeah it was very it was it was it just made a lot of people look very talented because it was very easy to make photogenically pretty cookie stuff however there's not a lot of people who are like fuck I love smoking cookies you know ten years later it's not like OG Kush where people were that high still chased yeah yeah so I think I can also already say that it in the wide narrow question it's it's definitely on the narrow side right now definitely I mean like when you get down to the gelatoes there's not you know yep I mean I mean I shouldn't say that because some people love gelatoes right but once you've hit gelato and you try to make like gelato crosses you usually end up with more gelatoes unless it's a very severe outcross but most people are breeding towards more cookie looking stuff so you don't typically see like like when we did the chocolate tie forum cut we were trying to breed away from cookies into the the chocolate tie line we had and that's what made it unique but like when you breed it back to more cookies you're just getting more cookies and that's cookies okay so what are the best traits of cookies localx to leaf ratio consistent potency high-high-high resin production and an aesthetic beauty yeah yeah the worst yield actual oils in the resin glands that are so copious this it's not it's not that great like you can have a lot of stocks and stuff make something look very frosty but a very low oil content in the resin glands on the head so yeah yeah I mean you just see more cookies and more cookies more resinous stuff yeah wedding cakey stuff just all over the place all over the place cookies I don't mean I want to ask this question for cookies but I may as well because if we've been doing it for the others so because it's a cut how would you make into a regular line hmm realistically you're making an a regular line of cookies is pretty easy if you out crossed anything that is like a short squat little low yielding Afghani type you can pretty pretty typically like pick up a easy breeding cookies line in a few steps maybe and taking it to F2 or BX1 any of that stuff like that that's it would be pretty easy to make a cookies line just because it reads so true to itself yeah okay are there are there parts to take with cookies that we haven't seen yet ooh I mean I mean probably right yeah I mean probably like I don't think cookies is the end of cannabis but I think the like gelato is like I think that's the end result of cookies and I don't see much you could do a gelato to try to save it like crossing gelato to some like I don't know like a Burmese like a 21 week Burmese might be interesting baby we're like that it would be really hard to find something to do however with cookies I still think you could cross into stuff like that and find really interesting stuff yeah yeah so if you actually want to take it someplace different which it seems like maybe not that many people have have wanted that for whatever reason we're trying to do everyone's it seems like to me most of the cookie stuff is like oh gee crossed the cookies crossed oh gee crossed the cookies like that's 99% of it like people went one direction for the most part yeah yeah okay and anything else you want to say about cookies yeah there's one thing or is it I'm pretty sure if you if you do some research you'll find out that there's all kinds in cookies so there's that there you go there's a few times it has to happen at least once in episode right well it's just so classic and it it's definitely relevant to cookies yeah hashtag never forget yeah never get phenotype well that does take us to the end of our list of modern building blocks man boom and we're at 138 so what else we got I don't know did you want to shout out any other lines that didn't lines or plants didn't quite make it in to either of these sections just gesture towards them anything on top of your head I mean like that like I said there's stuff like Swazi really borrowed there's there's like Durban tie high flyer there was a tie that was used in that there's there's been random lines that have been used or or accessions from different land races that have been used and stayed for a while in lines but when we when we were talking about doing this this list it was really should mainly trying to find the lines that have carried on into modern times and and there's really only a few that really really made their mark and kept carrying on to modern modern times that we can identify like oh that's a skunk one that's that's a haze trade that's you seen a lot less haze traits in America and haze tight plants and and let it sativa tight plants that are people plants that people would typically call sativa in general yeah we've seen a lot of the Afghani explosion and it's kind of because of home growing situations and the legalities I think that it's it's typically gone that direction in the US so we don't have like the big haze culture that they do in Amsterdam where you know it's super silver haze and he's everything over here it's cookies everything and slowly we're seeing that invade over there so I don't know what we're going to see for the future with hazes but hopefully people yeah yeah I also thought I'd mentioned that we have talked about all these plants before or I should say Matt and not so have definitely talked about all of these plants and lines before so if you want to go for a deeper dive you can definitely find the episodes where they cover the respective plants or lines this is just meant to be a summary and overview on each of these but also with the particular lens of breeding with them or working with them whereas in in a lot of the previous episodes it's been a bit more about their provenance or sorry much more driven by by their history with some some aspects of this so yeah was there anything else that we wanted to add especially considering this is still part of our like breeding series with with any follow-ups to any of the previous episodes or anything like that nothing comes to mind directly were there any questions from anybody that we needed to run through no but I may just mention that like I saw some really cool conversations happening in the discord in and around those episodes like I know squirrels scientists and maybe crybaby we're having a discussion about the actual findings in terms of the occurrence of actual heterosis yeah in cannabis plants and that was really interesting there's obviously so much more beyond what we've outlined so you know definitely don't take our stopping point for the stopping point there's a lot going on out there like I think that's already mentioned before you know like whether whether you can find them in like journal articles or you know agricultural breeding textbooks there's so much knowledge out there that we are still you know very far from fully digesting in the cannabis world so yeah yeah yeah he's right you know like just remember everything is from certain perspectives like when I was tying the skunk one tail that was all done from someone else's perspective and cannabis is just a big conglomeration of different perspectives and it's the best we got so don't feel like he like he said don't feel like this is the endpoint this is the best we know currently but it doesn't mean someone can't dig up research that we haven't and find out things we haven't that we don't even know and I hope people are inspired to do that yeah for sure and I just to mention as well we're still trying to get high and low and some on we weren't able to get it going this week but hopefully soon yeah that'll be a great episode I need more stuff on this board bro you do we still we still haven't had the not so clips yet so no we got you plant seeds you number a seed one two three hundred or one through two yeah that one and then yes a gunk gunk and phenotypes I think that's all we got yeah I reckon we can afford yeah I think we can diversify the sound board but all right well then I guess other than that check out right seeds com for all your seed needs and then I spray we have our spray don't forget if you want to make your own feminine seeds at home it's an excellent way to do it we have the instructions on the site three different sizes available we have our patreon discord where we hang out all the time in exchange all kinds of ideas I think tonight I don't even know if you have time tonight but we may try to do like a group like horror video game type thing with a few of us yeah we're I don't know but it's great we're making all kinds of friends and not just like you know acquaintances like we're making lifelong friends there and people that have the same passions it's it's it's not just like awesome it's some of it's like life-changing you know and I think a lot of people feel that way so I'm stoked on it and it and I'm honored to even be a part of it oh yeah you've got anything no I'm happy thanks you're happy thousands happy we're done thanks for showing up and see you next week one second want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top-notch I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicategear.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old string history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope 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