 Thanks for joining us on ThinkTech. Time for responsible change. Welcome, whatever time of day and maybe for you when you're watching this. And we have the good fortune to have with us today, Jeff Bortnoy, not only one of Hawaii's leading and most experienced and respected civil attorneys, partner at the Cade Shuddy firm, but also a leading constitutional and first amendment authority here in Hawaii and well beyond. So, Jeff, going local for today, what do you see ahead for the next four years for Hawaii with the upcoming elections, which we can all probably pretty well predict? Did you or I run off everybody else? Probably me because of the time change. Nobody wanted to do 5pm on Wednesday afternoon. You know, I just got through doing about an hour interview with a professor at Georgetown who's doing a study on democracy in Hawaii. It was fascinating. It's done a lot of work. They're apparently going to have a big conference here in a couple of weeks with Pacific Island nations about democracy and what it means. But my big mantra, and it kind of plays into your question, nothing is going to change because we have a dominating one party system that's been in place for six decades, except for some brief periods of time. And it's not just the people that get elected. It's all the people they appoint. It's the thousands of bureaucrats who have had their jobs for five decades. And then people want to know why nothing gets done or there's too much bureaucracy or you can't get an answer, where there's no transparency, where there's no responsibility. And now over the last couple of years, leading politicians are being indicted left and right. I mean, the answer's in large part because you've got no loyal opposition. You've got all the hens and the chickens and you don't have a wolf anywhere near them. So you know, you and I have talked about the Republican Party and you know, I don't agree with 98% of their positions, but we are like the South in the 60s. We've got a dominating party and no outlook, no reasonable outlook that that's going to change over the next 40 years, let alone four years. There is my answer. Okay, fair enough. So I take it that Josh Green and Sylvia Luke are likely to be the leadership pair? Well, I mean, I have to make an admission. Josh is a friend of mine and I don't know Sylvia Luke at all, except when she was at the legislature and when I was a regent, we had our differing views. But I think Josh, you know, I don't think it's the governor that's the problem. I don't think this present governor is the problem. The problem sits with the legislature. I mean, you know, when you have total domination decade after decade after decade, it leads to the kinds of things we're seeing, unfortunately. And, you know, not just the legislative positions, but prosecuting attorneys and, you know, we can go down the list. It's just not a good thing. I don't care what your political beliefs are, unless you're a democrat and believes that's all that matters. And then if you talk to them, they'll go, well, you know, we have divisions within our party. Yeah, sure, you have real divisions. So yeah, I see it. So I think Josh is going to be great as a governor. I don't have any problems with the present governor. He's not the most interesting human being I've ever met. But I don't think he's been involved in any of the, you know, the issues. I think Rick Blangiardi, who is another friend of mine, I'm making an admission, I think brought a breath of fresh air to that position, not being a career politician. I think Mike Victorino on Maui, another friend, has brought a breath of fresh air, not being a career politician. But look at the legislature. I guess the only thing you might say is that there are a couple of very young, new elected people who are representing some constituencies that haven't had appropriate representation in the past. So you got a couple of Hawaiians, which I think is great. But I said a couple. And, you know, there's some, you know, other ethnic groups who have representatives. But you got nobody guarding the chicken coop. And interestingly, Governor Igay, who had an eight-year tenure, came out of decades in the legislature and yet had a far less than harmonious relationship with them. Well, and I think they'll point to that to say, see, we're not all, we don't all have the same stripes. You know, some of us have dots. I mean, you know, we have leopards and tigers, so we're all, we're okay. You know, we eat each other. They're still all cats. So, I mean, you know, get a few dogs in there and see what happens. Okay. Well, Sylvia Luke comes out of many years in positions of considerable authority in the legislature. Any chance that she's going to make a positive favorable difference for Josh Dream's relationship with alleged? Not as lieutenant governor. I mean, that's been a place where people go to die. You know, politicians go to die. I mean, I don't know Sylvia Luke at all, so I really can't comment. But, you know, Josh says he's going to give the lieutenant governor lots of things to do. Who's the vice president of the United States? I think most people will have forgotten. I don't think we've seen Kamala Harris in about two and a half years. So, I mean, you know, I hope they have a good symbiotic relationship. I hope she speaks her mind like Josh Green did when he disagrees with the governor. I think that's good. You know, we saw that with COVID. But, you know, when you say you're going to see any, what change do you think we're going to see in the next four years? Maybe we'll have a rail that goes five miles. That might happen in the next four years. You can take it from, I don't know, Eva to the stadium, although people say you'll be able to take it to the federal courthouse. We'll see. Yeah, I remember when that route first came out and the federal judges all signed the letters saying, yeah, don't put that thing there. Yeah, I guess the landowners may have had a different view. The ones that are going to benefit when there's a stop there. I mean, you know, look, I think things will remain essentially the way they are. I mean, we have had a bad period with legislators convicted of taking bribes and prosecuting attorneys being indicted and police chiefs in jail. It's, you know, we're making Chicago look good. They're jealous of us. So are there any people that you anticipate might be part of the new leadership that might bring something different to the table? I mean, Sylvia Luke is out of the legislature, so is that going to change the dynamics there? You know, I don't think we're going to see a change in the speaker. I don't think we're going to, even though he only, he almost lost, that's pretty amazing. Twice. Yeah, so I guess the Democrats will point, the Democrats will point to that as one of the three contested elections in the primary. You know, we're not going to get a change in the president of the Senate. Yeah, I'm not suggesting we should. I'm just saying we're not going to. No one's losing their job in state government unless they get indicted or they resign like the planning commissioner did today for the city and county, probably two steps ahead of whatever is coming out of that department. How many people have been indicted already? Six? You know, I think the real question is why didn't our local people, our local attorney general, our local US attorney, our local prosecutor, why didn't they indict any of these people? That's an interesting question. Well, as to the prosecutor, we kind of know the answer to that. I mean, he can't indict himself. I don't get it. Right. Yeah, case on a bit of a hot seat. Where do you see that going? I have no idea. You know, I mean, they're pretty, they're pretty tight lipped about what information they have on them. And then the other three, you know, the former court counsel has been indicted along with the primary lobbyist and the mayor's second hand, a second in command. I mean, you know, they may get acquitted, but the fact that they've been indicted is just not a good sign. I mean, it's just, but as I, you know, I just think we've had a bad period. Yeah, we've had some bad apples before, but they have been relatively few and far between. Now we have a tsunami. Yeah, before it was usually just driving under the influence now. Right. Or falling down in the street in New Orleans or whatever. I mean, bring back the good old days. So any bright spots on the Hawaii horizon? Can you see? I don't know. I mean, we've got a lot of problems. Are they going to get fixed? I mean, are the Hawaiians going to get their homes? Are they going to get their land back? Are we going to see rail starting up? Are we going to get a plan for a new stadium? Are we going to be able to deal with the homeless? Are we going to deal with our taxes, rising house prices? Are we going to deal with another 10 million tourists? There was all that talk. Remember during COVID? Wow, we got a chance to breathe now and use our parks and save our surf and the reefs are coming back and we can't allow that many tourists. They had more tourists the last three months than they ever had. So I mean, there's a lot of talk and zero action on the part of the people who control us. So, you know, is there a reason to be optimistic? I'm optimistic about Josh. I'm optimistic about Rick. I have no optimism at all about the legislature or about some of the people in the private community who have benefited quite well from tourism, construction, and related industries. Yeah, and you're right. We're headed back toward the 10 million a year or more visitors with more coming. Is there anywhere where you see some bright signs of possible change in any of the sectors? I'll turn the question around. Do you? That is a challenge. That is a challenge. In homelessness, affordable housing, in education, we're just not seeing it in healthcare, in transportation, whether it be street or rail. I mean, we're not falling apart. You know, I mean, we're not falling into the sea, at least not yet, not during our lifetime. But I mean, you asked whether I see a lot of improvement in the next four years or whatever words you use. And I say, what is there that leads me to think we're going to see a lot of difference? We'll have new leaders. That could be the difference. But we have the same legislature. Nobody, you know, what is there? Two new people? I mean, what is there? Three Republicans? I mean, same city council. Yeah. I mean, you know, so, hey, I've lived here 50 years. I'm not moving. Lots of other people are. I mean, the cost of living is what we've all become used to, you know, we just now have inflation on top of it. So it's anybody who thinks they can predict where we're going to be in four years, I think is on a fool's errand. I think you hope that the people you're putting in place and places of leadership like the governor can can get some things done. I'm hopeful. But if you asked me four years ago, have you seen a lot of change in the last four years? So, Jeff, you've been around for a while. Are there people that you see out in the community untapped high quality leadership potential people that you would like to see in positions of authority to be able to make change? Yeah, I'm an old man. I mean, all I know about young people is what we have in our firm and what I read in the magazines about Hawaii's top 40 women under 40 or, you know, I have no idea. I'm sure there are a lot of very competent people who are ready to take the rain. And, you know, is it more of the same? I don't know. It's a whole new generation, right? And I think COVID has changed the ground rules in a lot of ways. So, I'm hopeful, but I can't give you any evidence of it. Just I want to be hopeful. Hey, it's a good feeling to work from. Hey, knowing Josh Green as you do, do you sense that he may bring in more younger leadership people than past Governors have? I can't answer that. You know, I haven't talked to him about that. I don't think he cares what I think, but, you know, you know, he's shown a little bit of an independent streak. And so, you know, it's hard. It's hard. I mean, look what happened to Abercrombie. You know, you can debate whether his policies were good or bad, but you can't debate the fact that he spoke his mind and he antagonized a lot of the really entrenched unions, Democrats in the legislature, and others, and some guy nobody even knew about, couldn't even pronounce his name, beat him in the primary. I mean, it was astounding. I mean, so, you know, you step out of line in the power broker's view and you pay for it. So, you know, I don't know how Joshua will be able to walk that tightrope without falling off. It's a pretty difficult skill. You know, and that's a really valuable insight because in his first term, he's going to want a second term to be able to have a period of time sufficient to make any real difference. And in order to do that, he's going to need the stability and support that you talk about coming from people who have the ability to deliver that. First of all, people don't vote in Hawaii. And why would they? This doesn't make any difference. In a couple of races, yes. You know, I don't know what percentage of Democrats running in the primary were unopposed, more than half, way more than half, I believe. And of course, they're unopposed in the general election, even if there's a name next to R. So I mean, why vote? There's no competition. And so that's a real problem, right? I remember where we ranked now on voting percentage, but it's pretty low. You may know. Yeah, I think the primary, we were about 40%, maybe even less. Yeah, I don't know where that ranks in, you know, the nation. But it's certainly not something to be proud of. I can understand it, right? Right. I mean, your vote has to make a difference. If it doesn't make a difference, you're better off going to a barbecue. You know, and the Republicans have shown no ability to field rational human beings, even this time around with a few exceptions. I mean, I think their candidate for governor is about as moderate a Republican as you could possibly find, and that's not saying very much. But look at the candidate running for lieutenant governor. I mean, you know, they've been dominated by weirdos, in my humble opinion, and still are. And so with this benefit, you know, aberrations, I mean, Lingle managed to be governor for four years, they got rid of her, and they took all the power away. You know, when they thought, oh no, we got a Republican governor, we better make sure we put the power back in the legislature. I mean, they did. I can even talk about how you appoint Regents. They took that power away, you know, and set up a commission. You think they did that because they thought it was a better way to find UH Regents? No. They did it so that the governor had a list of that commission, which the governor and his allies nominated people for. So the governor had a list of people he or she had to pick from. That's just one example. So, you know, there are three branches. We've talked about this. I think our judiciary and our Supreme Court have saved us from what might otherwise be a very serious situation by finding against the legislature on more than one occasion, by finding that they haven't followed through on state as in, on various commitments. The governor, I guess you can look at who the governor is and whether he or she has been able to carve out an independent role, these mixed results. But then you have the legislature. And it's what it's been since I've been here. And I've been here 50 years. The names change, but the dominance doesn't. So, you know, what else is going to happen to make things different? That's all I'm asking you and everybody else. What is going to happen other than we have a new democratic, a new governor, probably, but we're gonna have a new governor. And it's about a 105 percent chance it's going to be Josh Green. What's going to change institutionally? I'm asking you the question now. Right. And you raise a really good point because a judiciary that has been totally dependent on the legislature for its institutional funding and authorization has nonetheless exercised a level of independence that we certainly haven't seen nationally. And I'm not sure we've really seen in any other state. And what's been the result? Their budget gets cut. That's what happens. Every time there's a decision the legislature doesn't like, not every time, but more than once, they cut the budget. We don't have enough judges. The judiciary doesn't have a legitimate budget. Yet they're beholden. How about the legislature's control over the University of Hawaii, which is supposed to have constitutional autonomy. They have no autonomy. The legislature decides whether there'll be a school of education in West Oahu or in Hilo or whether what the University puts in their budget they want to approve. No, we'll cut this, but we'll put in 50 million for our pet projects for the University of Hawaii. Like they know, like they know what's necessary or not. I mean, that's the reality. It's a story that rarely gets told. But that's what happens when you have no opposition. I remember when I was on the region, how many times I was told privately, stop poking the bear. You're poking the bear. And I said, yep, stop poking the bear and one day the bear will come to your campsite and eat you and everything that's in it. And that's what's happening. So at some point, you got to poke the bear. No, can't poke the bear. Well, the bear controls. Remember the Lord of the Rings? Read it. There you go. And so what we're seeing and hearing is a state system unbalanced and dominated by by an exercise of legislative authority and power that doesn't seem to really be fulfilling the needs of the community rather than sheer power politics. Well, I mean, you know, on certain issues they're doing what the majority of people want. They've been in the forefront. I mean, you know, moral issues, social issues, same sex marriage, abortion. So everybody who believes in those things are thrilled, right? But it's everything else. It's the running of a government. It's it's being considered one of the most business unfriendly states in the world. It's a state which is allowing tourism to overwhelm environmental and related issues. It's a state that hasn't been able to come to grips with homelessness, which is a tough issue. Don't get me wrong. It's a state that doesn't serve the underserved populations in Leeward O'ahu and in Hilo and places like that. It's a state that has not recognized its failure to properly and legally fulfill its responsibilities to the Hawaiian community. And, you know, there are issues there on both sides, but, you know, it's a state that is consistently overpaying for projects by billions. And who's the recipient of those billions? Contractors? Landowners? It's not one project. And not only is it over by billions, it's delayed by years. One after another. Airports, roads, rail, stadium. I mean, we can go on and on. So I mean, is it institutional? Is it because we're an island? Is it a whole bunch of things? We can all come up with our own reasons, but we look at the facts. The facts are the facts. Whether it's age three, you know, we can go on and on. I mean, do these happen in other places? Yeah, probably more prominent here though, right? Because we're living on this rock. But it just seems that they continue to happen. So, in our last couple of minutes, Jeff, hey, if the governor and lieutenant governor came to you and said, look, hey, give us your top priorities, things we need to put at the top of the list, things that you believe we really need to keep in mind if we're going to do the best possible job the next four years and maybe beyond. What would you put out there? What would you like to see? That's a great question. I don't have a simple answer. I mean, you know, I don't have all the knowledge of what goes on internally. And, you know, I just see externally, you know. I don't know, Chuck. I mean, there are obviously lots of issues. And I just think to focus on a single issue or even a couple of issues really doesn't get to what I see as the problem. The problem is systemic. The problem is an institutional one, from my view. So, yeah, you can point to homelessness or you can point to high taxes. Those are something you can grasp. But those are results of what I think is the problem. And I come back to where I started. If you don't have a competitive political system, you're going to have domination by a group. And it doesn't take a social scientist to tell you that's bad. I mean, what's the difference? And I know people are going to say, wow, this is an overstatement. But what's the difference between an election in Russia and an election in Hawaii? There's none. There's none. They both have one party. You know, I mean, obviously one's a dictatorship or one's a democracy. I got it. So, I think that's a problem. And again, I wouldn't even vote for Republican. Not the ones that I've seen around here or a lot of the country. But that doesn't mean you have to have some opposition. I mean, look at England. Is it bad? If Boris Johnson didn't have any opposition, what would have happened to England? I'm not saying we should be Italy with 14 parties. Anyway, it's an interesting saying. And again, I've lived with it. I've learned to adapt to it. Doesn't mean that I don't think there are things that would make this place better. And I'm happy for who's running and who just got elected and the offices that affect me the most. But I just looked across the street to the legislative building and, you know, I have trouble being really optimistic about that. Fair enough. Thanks so much, Jeff Bortnoy. Insights and perspectives on challenges, obstacles, and maybe some reasons to hope that good people will do some good things in the next four years here. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us today. Think Tech Hawaii. Come back and see us again. We'll be back in a couple of weeks. Be good. Hope they don't raise my taxes. Hope so too.