 Okay, we know that the core elements of good governance usually would include transparency, integrity, accountability, responsiveness, you know, absence of corruption as well, and from all of these indicators, I mean we don't need to say too much about what's happening in Nigeria to define if we're actually experiencing bad governance or good governance. But then I'm happy that we have Mr Deli Farruti with us here today to discuss and we know that his amount of many words that we definitely cannot wait to hear from him as well. So yes, I would love to hear from you. What should take on this sir? How do you think it is? It's pretty interesting. I saw some of your graphic run through your screen just then and I saw that at the base of good governance. You've got a good justice system, then you've got a rule of law. You know, when we drop all these precepts and concepts in Nigeria, we talk about there as though there is a standard for the whole world and not a standard for we Nigerians. So this simply cannot be. We must understand that each and every one of these are global concepts. Democracy is global in nature. Good governance. Each and every one of them are global concepts. So when we talk about building a sustainable governance structure, we must understand very quickly that we can't wish this into existence. We have to consciously work towards the establishment of a society where we can actually have a sustainable governance structure. But how do we do this? Citizens build states. But our country is a very interesting place. It's a country that has refused to evolve citizenship. And even when I say this, you look to your passport and you begin to wonder what that mad lawyer is saying, but beyond the semantics, when you go to the root of the issue, you'll find very quickly that once you are members of the Nigerian state, you are not citizens. You cannot have citizenship in a place that is not ruled by law. When you do not have equality of persons who live in a particular space, then you cannot call the people living in that space citizens. And you also cannot build a sustainable society in the absence of the rule of law because you cannot have justice in a place that is equally unruled by law. So everything goes back to the very basis of the existence of any state. I think it's the French philosopher, I believe he was Montesquieu, who spoke about the social contract theory. The general thinking in Europe is that the state came into being as a function of the readiness of citizens to give up their rights in order to build an overarching engine that now takes care of everybody, protects their interests. That is the very first of his duties, the protection of the interest. And then as that society evolved, they came to the point where you had stuff like the Magna Carta, which sought to curtail the powers of kings and authentics, to the point where they evolved the concept of citizenship. Even the Christian ideology itself is found on the equality of persons. All this suggests that you must have the law ruling that is stronger than the strongest person in the society and thus guarantees the right of everybody. Unfortunately, Nigeria is not a place ruled by law. In the absence of law, we have been ruled by impunity. So it becomes impossible to have a society that is sustained because our society is not governed by law. So I'm sorry, even the Labour Party or Mr. Peter Gregory Rubin, however well-intentioned they might be, in the absence of a decision by the Nigerian collective to build a society that is governed by law, not by strong men, who begins to dictate to everyone else, not governed by magicians in the guise of supreme court justices who impose their own will in the place of law. That is not a place that you can build sustainably. We as a collective come to the understanding that we cannot build a society if we do not build one that is anchored to the rule of law. Without the rule of law, you cannot have justice. Without justice, you cannot have equality. Without equality, you cannot have citizenship and that is why we are a mess that needs serious fixing in five days' time, beginning in five days' time. But right now, we do not have anything to speak of. We can only begin to imagine a hope that we, having discovered ourselves and installed the government that we desire, will then begin the journey to rectitude, to build in a country that will be ruled by law where everybody can be sure that they will find justice, whether they are rich or poor, high or low. That is the only way you can build a sustainable society. Sorry, can I comment? I would like to ask a question because now before you said it is a bit scary. It is a bit scary in the sense that what you have just said, if the vote comes, because we know that the votes will come in 20, 30 of February, we will vote to decide who will elect as our president and also the national representative. Now tell me this, if you say that there is no rule of law, that whatever it is, that the majority of Nigeria, if this decision may be filled towards what the majority wants, which is the youth, and then eventually that is not what the controller, what do you call them nowadays? The owners of Nigeria. The owners of Nigeria, it is not what they want. So what then guarantees that this will stand? What guarantees that? Because now you are even making me a lot more scared. I thought I had votes in my PVC, but now what you're saying is just almost like negating everything. I am not a prophet of doom, but I speak the truth as I see it. It is for my hearers to determine whether what I have said resonates with what they know in their own spirit or if I have merely spoken and joined the sound of my own voice, what has been backwards and cacophonous. Here is the thing, you don't need me to tell you that Nigeria is not governed by law. You are the ones who have willfully hypnotized yourselves into believing the lie that you know to be the lies. A country ruled by law would not have space for the massacre, so pretended by the Nigerian army. I am not even talking to the one at Legito Gate yet. I am talking to the ones who pretended by burratized guards. Specifically, I think that was in, was that Kaduna Ozaria? I am not sure exactly where in the north. The Shia were having their procession. I believe it was 430 of them that were pronounced murdered by the judicial panel of enquiry set up by the Kaduna state government. Wrap your brains around that in their own country because they were proceeding and they blocked the road. They were summarily executed and nobody, not one person has been held responsible for their death until today. 430 of them citizens do not get killed like that. But that was in a far away northern Nigeria in Kaduna state. Right there, at Legito Gate, the old world knew exactly where and where my door continued to pretend that we do not know. But the panel itself returned his verdict. There is a country known as LCC. It was complicit in that multiple murders. Nothing has happened to it until then. The Nigerian Army, paid for by Nigerian citizens, has not been held responsible till date in spite of the clear attacks. There is a governor sitting in this state till date is still denying it in spite of the fact that over 100 million, specifically in two tranches of 50-50 million had been paid in cash to those who lost lives, families of those who lost lives and limbs in that place. So, when we talk about the lawlessness of Nigeria, these are practical, demonstrable, easily provable facts. What now happens as a function of our realisation of the putrefaction of our society and the readiness to walk away from it, is another ball game entirely. But we need to tell ourselves these basic truths. We are not a society ruled by law. We are a society where impunity is administered. It has been like that for ever. While it didn't start with Jonathan either. And we could even go as far as to say that it preceded of us or just come in 1999. Nigeria has always been ruled by impunity. The only thing is that for a change, we have a chance. Thirty years after the first time we had a chance. But we must be deliberate and intentional now about fighting what is in front of us. We need to understand that we can't continue like this. Our country is not ruled by law. We can pretend all we want. Our reality does not suggest that we are ruled by law. Thank you. I like the fact that you talked about the rule of law and everything around it. Because what on the street has it that Nigerians should be... Nigerians should be governed as though you are governing. You are establishing a business. Having a human resource manager. We talked a bit about that in the makeup room. A place where every election, every appointment is strictly based on competence. This perhaps is the reason why a majority of people out there are opting for one of the candidates that has a track record of successful business management. What do you have to say about that? For a long time, the ruiners of Nigeria got away with running riot. Because we refused to own Nigeria. We just abandoned Nigeria to the rulers of Nigeria. So they ran riot all over the place. But I guess the coming of Bwari has opened everybody's eyes to the fact that elections have consequences. The ruination that we've all witnessed. And the big teams of two varying degrees over the last seven and a half years. Has reconnected the people to their PVC, to the electoral process. A lot of people sacrificed their time and their resources to also work to bring us to where we are today. But the important thing is this. Nigerians are realizing that we cannot leave governance to the worst of us. And we cannot continue to believe that we can somehow continue to subsidize government in efficiency. So everybody, you know when they say breakfast will go round. Everybody have been well served. I think at this point, the largest victims, the largest pool of victims, the largest demography. The young ones who are having to vote with their feet and run out of Nigeria. But so many of them are running away. The tales coming out of Jagpa is not sounding so palatable. Less and less of them are interested in going anywhere. And they are realizing that maybe we all took a stand this time around. And just fight for Nigeria instead of leaving it for them to keep doing as they like with it. If you say it has no value to you. They will continue to abuse it. So we are all beginning to realize that we actually have nowhere else to go. And we just have to fix this place. So yeah, a lot of us are now looking at it. If I'm not going to hire a man to run my country. Why would I hire him to run my country? I'm a Yoruba man. The first question you ask when you meet someone new or when they meet you. When I was younger, they say, who is your father? So where is your home? Or in typical Yoruba parlance. Agbole poloti jagi. That means where is... What constant are you from? They want to determine your provenance. Who are you? I think we are getting to that point in our political history now, where people are now becoming interested in the provenance of the characters who are looking to run for office. So I think 2023 really is more of a reflection on our own capacities for deductive and inductive logic. And perhaps you would also tell how much we have learned from our experiences or if we are doomed participants to continue to roll this tone of the hill forever without achieving anything because it doesn't make sense. If we haven't learned by now, we can never learn. Thank you very much. Okay. So I mean, again, I like the fact that it's the rule of law. But I want to take the focus a bit away from, I mean, the expectations that we all have that, I mean, some form of magic is going to happen when we elect a new government. So I want to ask, I mean, true governance is a dual responsibility, the responsibility of the government and then the citizenry. So what do you think is the steps or are the steps that we need to take as citizens to be beneficiaries of not just the rule of law but an effective society where sustainable governance is achievable? Good. First thing first. The first thing you need to do, understand that in your current state, you are not a citizen. Your citizenship is an aspiration. It's only when you understand it to be an aspiration, something you want, you desire it. Only citizens hold rulers to account. Only citizens are protected by law. A policeman would not point a gun at the citizen and declare lightly how key you are not in warping. It's if the policeman in a society where there are citizens would not say that. It is only in a society where the police does not consent. But let's even break that down a little. Who is the policeman? The person whose job it is to enforce and uphold the law. When you now have a situation where it is the person whose duty it is by law to protect you, to uphold the law that is telling you and this is commonplace in Nigeria, I will kill you and nothing will happen. What the person is telling you is that he is affirming the reign of impunity over law. So first of all, understand that you are not a citizen. Your declaration of citizenship is at best an aspiration. It was the one dual and I am aspiring to one myself. Unlike you, I have not embraced the illusion of a citizenship that I know I am not obsessed. So now, if you are now desirous of citizenship you will now need to move beyond all of those things that have limited your capacity to become citizens. What are those things? The things that divide us as Nigerians because it is in our division that those who ruin this country have found validation for their powers. So religion is the first of those things. You must vote in the common elections forgetting religion. Even though the APC has sought to make religion an issue in this choice of candidates we must take a decision looking beyond religion. Secondly, we must look beyond ethnicity. I say this understanding that the basis of Nigerian nationality is actually the ethnic group, not the person because if we had citizenship we would engage Nigeria as citizens but we are unable to engage Nigeria as citizens because Nigeria has not allowed the law to rule. So we generally engage Nigeria as a Yoruba man is the town of Yoruba which is what parted the idiocy of every local. No, I am a people man or I am a full animal I am a nature man we are really anything we are always everything but Nigerian because Nigeria has not allowed for a common identity for those who should be called Nigerians. So first and first understand the aspirational nature of citizenship in Nigeria and then vote understanding that it is your vote that might if enough of us should have the sufficient brain to vote right we might then become citizens. If we don't become citizens we would have at least galvanized sufficient numbers of us to continue making that demand of the Nigerian state. However when we have now won the right to be citizens it doesn't end there if anything that is when the battle begins there are 77 trillions in debt amassed by this administration waiting for whoever is coming next those are not abstracts those are real figures and the fact that they have done a fantastic job of popularizing everyone they take away all of the cash all of us are now dependent on the banking system it means that you can hide your money they have to increase the tax rate they have to widen the tax ban so you will be paying taxes whether you are paying to those who will use the money productively or those who will use the money to further enrich elections have consequences whether these people will cut cost where they will be cut or whether they will be asking us to tighten our own burdens while their own burdens are sipping over their trousers those will be the decisions to be taken that is when your citizenship becomes a nation whether the federal government and the state government the rulers generally will continue their own enormous policies of borrowing to consume while demanding that the rest of us continue to bleed our substance to keep them in style these are the things that will determine the content of our citizenship I would prefer to be marching on the streets with a new big presidency in place I wouldn't want to be marching on the streets with a man who has already act what were they doing there those who were killed what were they doing there that is excusing murder and massacre I am not going to be marching on the streets because somebody who has no problem deleting a tweet condemning the agi us murder so as far as I am concerned my preference is that clear but these coming elections and the aftermath are going to be consequential for Nigeria and Nigerians and whilst Nigeria might deserve some of the evil looming over it Nigerians certainly do not deserve this evil and our hodja lovers hang yourselves with your PVC it doesn't end with even a victory for our preferred candidate speaking for myself it doesn't end there it only begins there because there are people whose interests are better guaranteed by keeping us the way we are and if he is going to succeed if he ever gets there it will be because we stood behind him and have refused to walk away and have insisted on him keeping his word and making sure that those who are the gatekeepers of power the national assembly the governors do the right thing even when we have done our part well said sir well said sir I like what he said about saying that even after you vote that is just the beginning we could go on listening to Mr. Delay Farotimi instead of giving us the guidance but then there is so much more to this conversation we will see you right after the break if you are just tuned in we are discussing the topic building a sustainable governance structure with Delay Farotimi remember you can join the conversation send us an SMS or WhatsApp 081 80384663 you could also tweet at us where is your Africa 1 with the hashtag okay so Mr. Farotimi was saying that it doesn't stop at you going to cast your votes I mean that is only just the beginning he also spoke about how the rule of law he spoke about how we are not citizens we should ask that was a shocker but then he made such a fantastic argument for it you are only protected when you are a citizen true if you are a true citizen nobody would say somebody in the executive office would not say I will shoot you when you can do nothing about it I mean after saying all of this I would like to ask I mean we have spoken about what the indicators of good governance are like rule of law accountability and integrity and all of that and then knowing that you are a spokesperson for the south west region of Labour Party I would like to ask how is your party intending to actually improve or build a sustainable structure of governance following all of these indicators that we have spoken about don't worry Tinello don't get despondent because I know that sometimes when we look at the bleakness of our reality it becomes very easy to despair but it is not my intention to depress anyone or give you cause to worry let me say that our situation is not irredeemable and whilst I speak for the OBDATI campaign I am not a member of the Labour Party I am a member of a very very which is part and parcel of the OB campaign but it is our own belief that the Labour Party of today is akin to the nadeco platform of the nineties which was formed essentially to get rid of the military the Labour Party of today is one where each and every one of us who believe that Nigeria deserves to be rescued and the Nigerians deserve to have a home that they can be proud of we all coalesced together and came behind the candidacy of Mr. Peter Gregory Obi and it is our firm believe that whilst many things are wrong with Nigeria the most important of them in my own view being our constitution I am also of the firm opinion that without the right leadership in place who understands we might disagree on policy and ideology but we can agree that where we are is not where we should be and we can also agree on where we should be headed so you find a whole lot of us working for Mr. Peter Obi and Mr. Datis ticket in the understanding that this is an important moment in Nigeria's history we are at an inflection point we are not looking to ideology we are just looking at one the need for the drastic change required by Nigeria second the need to have honest purposeful leadership now if we have honest purposeful leadership we might begin to have disagreements that are based on the pathways to achievement of strategic goals but it will not be because we are busy chasing ephemeral things that are not important to the people which is what has happened to Nigeria for the last few decades it is that we worry reality is that we have been on a long journey to nowhere because we have lost focus we have worked without purpose so it is our belief that Mr. Peter Obi's presidency would offer the necessary leadership and the sense of purpose that should uncall so that we can constrain our resources we are not poor people the tragedy of Nigeria is best if you will visit ita once you drive into ita you could be anywhere in the world beautiful place it could be paradise but the moment you come back outside you are back in the hell so within our own land paradise was built by those to whom we least land but we won't the land we continue to live in hell so this is essentially about the complete lack of leadership yes Peter Obi can do it on his own and I've said this ad not yet but at least we start somewhere so that's what this is about is about starting somewhere okay alright I think Wa has a question okay so I was just being asked when you were talking you talked about we're being pushed against religious lines division against tribalized and religious you cannot take away the fact that the principle of Peter Obi largely has huge support he's also a beneficiary from this religious what's it called division or whatever religious line because a lot of churches are fully you know back in the reason I'm throwing this throw in this is because again whether we like it or not this particular election will still write on those religions and tribal lines right or how do we move past those kinds of things for like future reference then speaking to the governorship I mean sorry to governors that would work hand in hand we are seeing what is happening currently with Air Roof 5 what's his name yes state citizens to go against the overruling of the supreme court if there's a lot of mess going on there by the presidency and state governors are saying go back to using the old currency there's just too many messiness there is no level of coordination so if someone like Peter Obi comes into power becomes president we are not seeing catastrophe happening because that is one of the the language that APC is saying that they might see some level of stability is saying they have majority for instance in the Senate and in the House of Representatives. So I'm trying to just squeeze in all my questions all at once but I think you get where I'm going. Let me start with Peter Albee and the religious politics of Nigeria. I wrote a book published about three years ago now, I believe that was the imperatives of the Nigerian Revolution and there is an entire section on the role of religion in Nigerian politics. I am not blind to what religion has done to us as a race and I am not blind to what religion has done to us as a country but I will say that in this particular election cycle it is the APC and its presidential ticket that has elevated religion into an issue in its own right in this election. Ordinarily religion is usually something that is used in which parts during elections in Nigeria and ordinarily it is one part it is usually it is both religion that have been quite adept at politicizing their interest and offering their support to adherence of their faith but in this particular election cycle a particular presidential candidate looked to the entire northern part of the country and saw no reason why he must balance the ticket when it comes to religion So you had a Muslim Muslim ticket from the governing party in the season when a lot of religious up evils have taken place in the country so they made religion an issue. Mr Peter Albee's religion is not something that started yesterday and is religiosity or if he is in any way shape or form declared to be religious is not something he acquired at the function of his ambition his older brother is a priest the older sister is a nun I am very sure that if the man had been able to deal with his canality he probably would have ended up a Catholic priest himself but I am sure the beautiful woman he married has assured that we at least have the opportunity to have a man who fears God and who is interested in the year after interested in governing our country so when it comes to religion, blame that not on Peter Albee that is the exclusive preserve particularly of the APC which made religion an issue Mr Peter Albee has not visited churches more than he usually do is not now that he started visiting churches is not now that he started giving and that he has visited churches that has not stopped him from visiting IDP camps that is his own way of life that is his own choice now when it comes to the governor and the way they have been acting running riot all over the place I need you to understand the desperation is real over a trillion naira remains outside of the banking system I am no economist but I dare say that the bulk of that money has touched all over the country waiting to be deployed in the services of the power demons next Thursday these five days from now but if this is the only thing worried would do right in eight years I don't know what motives he might have but I know that it will have the effect of reducing the effect of naira in this election I don't know what his own motives are he might just be collateral beneficiary of his own wickedness so be it the important thing is that on this election day that is coming in five days time money will not be a factor bullion vans are not going to be entering anybody's houses whether they trade there like stray dogs whether they went there to drop company's cash for salary for any company it doesn't matter bullion vans have been outlawed and even if they are not outlawed how many bullion vans can you deploy at this point in time so when you see the governors running riot understand that almost all of them have warehouses full of money that have not expired that is one second thing is that they are dealing with a lame dog president Bwari is at best a lame dog what can it do to anybody at this point the judiciary is hopelessly compromised even if it sets years it's your anybody after them they will purchase a judiciary they will procure a judicial pronouncement and free themselves of him until he leaves so they can treat him with the contents by which they are dealing with him now because they know that they are all the same all this one that is in last minute chakra it's just last minute chakra but to now relate this specifically to my own principal in the race Peter Albee was after governor in a state where all the house of assembly members were PDP yes they impeached him but because he was doing the will of the people and he stayed on the right side of the law he was reinstated and he stayed at Napgar governor for 8 years and he ruled the state and the people were behind him let me be clear we are about to go into an election the people will decide who goes to the houses of reps and who goes to the Senate those people will not be representing Togolese or Ghanians they will be representing Nigerians if Peter Gregory will be wins the presidency and becomes the president of Nigeria they wouldn't dare to go against the will of the Nigerian people and if they do will be on the streets matching and I assure you if the president is doing the will of the people and we are on the streets matching the senate president cannot order policemen to shoot us so the powers of the Nigerian president should never be underestimated that they are dealing with a lame talk president in a desperate gambit to redeem the money is more or less like under soldier imagine all those billions rendered useless you know when they don't shoot soldiers or let them be dead soldiers so you can see the desperation people are they are telling they are issuing draconian addicts and dictators they will ban this they will dissolve you of all they come on is the desperation the desperation is real I mean I know that we will be let you you can just go on and on and on and about this but let's take comments from our viewers this one says that my take on this topic is structures meant to drive leadership policies namely the legislative and judiciary including the civil service can actually slow things down advently or inadvertently truncate same why do I say that why do I say that supposing Trump was here in Nigeria he would have gotten away with this truncant poster to retain power here in Nigeria a president will make a broadcast on policy direction and of the governors will do his own to counter will do his own to counter even though Mr. President on his own was disobeying a supreme court order on the issue take a civil service there are a lot of them sabotaging policies what of legislative question question question question this is Austin from Delta thank you so much Austin oh you have a comment good evening my dear beautiful sister the word are you saying sustainable governance structure are you beautiful ladies brought the right person to do justice and conduct a post mortem on this topic we cannot build a sustainable governance structure when we are lawless we are easy to make laws but fail to implement it also our country is based on 100% falsehood whereby a particular thing happens and you come out publicly and lie that that thing did not happen a typical example is the leki tollgate massacre where people were killed and you said there was no killing and you even had your audacity to lie through this you cannot build a sustainable governance structure you cannot tell me to tighten up my belt while yours is still loose my name is Daniel Illo your way is regular fun thank you so much Daniel like Daniel I rightly said you brought the right person to actually conduct a post mortem on this topic thank you so much it was great having you on the shoot tonight thank you for having me thank you so much ladies as well looking at the beauty before we go do ensure you follow us on instagram at wayshowafrica you can also interact with us further drop a comment and most importantly follow all our social media engagement and remember to like, share, comment and invite your friends and family to watch us and follow us if you miss today's quotes here it is again today I always believe that ultimately if people start paying attention then we get good government and good leadership and when we get lazy as a democracy and civically start taking shortcuts then it results in bad government and politics this is by Barack Obama see you again tomorrow at 8pm as we bring another great conversation see you on screen bye