 Hi, I'm Mary Harrell for Tan Books. Beauty Will Save the World. Dostoevsky famously wrote that. And if you're a Catholic, there's great news. You are already part of a rich and beautiful faith tradition that has been literally saving the world for the past 2,000 years. So for centuries, the Catholic Church has served as a principal patron of the arts. And many of the world's most admired and treasured masterpieces are Christian in their theme and their origin, and even their location. Here to tell us more about it today is Dr. Jem Sullivan. She's the author of her new book, Sacred Art Every Catholic Should Know. Dr. Sullivan, thanks for joining us. Thank you so much, Mary, for having me. And thank you for the invitation to join you on this feast of the birth of Mary, a perfect day to speak about the beauty of faith expressed in sacred art, because Mary is the most beautiful of all creatures. One of the titles given in praise of Mary in the early church by the early church fathers is Tota Pulcara S, which is Mary who is truly and totally beautiful. Why? Because Mary is the one that God chose to bear his divine son, Jesus, into the world. And so I'm delighted to share some thoughts on the book, on this feast of the birth of Mary, and to dedicate my reflections to Mary and to St. Joseph. Wonderful. That's a wonderful way to kick this off. I love it. Jem, what makes the difference? If we were going to start just at the beginning, what makes the difference when you're discerning art from sacred art? Is it just religious content that makes the difference, or is there something else that takes it to the next level of the sacred? You know, that's a great question to start with, because what do we mean by these terms art and religious art and sacred art? So generally speaking, art is an expression of human creativity and skill that engages the senses. So what we see, hear, touch, feel. Now sacred art is a very specific form of art in that its purpose is to guide us into the mystery of the Eucharist. So sacred art is created almost exclusively solely for the purpose of leading the faithful, us, to a deeper participation in the mysteries of faith as they are celebrated in the Eucharist. So sacred art is a very specific form of art in that its purpose is to guide us into the mystery of Jesus who was made present in the Eucharist. So the whole purpose of sacred art is to serve the sacred liturgy of the mass. Sacred art is art created specifically for the context of the liturgy. And if I may just quote from the Catechism, because it gives a definition of sacred art. It says, sacred art evokes and glorifies the transcendent mystery of God, the surpassing invisible beauty of truth and love made visible in Jesus Christ. And then it says, genuine sacred art draws us in adoration and in prayer to greater love of God and love of one another. And that's from the Catechism 2502. Jim, that was one of the things I loved about your book, how richly you have sourced the Catechism on many of the pages and discussing these beautiful masterpieces that you bring in the literature from the church to support what you're saying that is being expressed in the masterpiece. And on that note, you're a noted college professor. You teach at the Catholic University of America out there in Washington, DC. And your specialty has largely been in Catechesis, with the Catechism. So tell us how did you make this jump to a book on sacred art? And would you say that art does have something like a catechetical value to it? Sure, Mary. You know, for years, I've been kind of speaking about researching, writing about sacred art and the catechetical value of it. The Catechism tells us that beauty is the visible form of truth and goodness. So if we seek truth and if we seek goodness, beauty is the visible form of that. There's never been a time in the church's 2,000 year old history that we do not have some expression of sacred art. Why? Because sacred art was a means of catechesis and evangelization for centuries. So it wasn't just simply to decorate our church buildings and make them look beautiful and add an aesthetic sort of quality to the buildings, but it was actually a means of instructing and forming the faithful in the faith. If I may just kind of offer an example from the Middle Ages of those magnificent Gothic cathedrals, right, of the Middle Ages that were places of pilgrimage and prayer and shrines. For instance, Chard Cathedral in France, a well-known one. We do not know the names of the countless artists and craftsmen who built and decorated Chard Cathedral. They didn't sign their names on the walls of the cathedral. Artists and craftsmen really remained anonymous for the most part in the Middle Ages. But what we do know is that these cathedrals quickly became catechisms in stone and stained glass. Why? Because when the faithful gathered to pray in these churches each week, as they worshiped the Lord, they were surrounded by the beauty of faith. They saw the faith of the church represented on the walls and the windows, the sculpture, the stained glass, the mosaic, the painting, the architecture of the church, and also the sacred music that they heard. So the same faith that they were professing, praying in the words of the creed, that same faith now took the form of the beautiful in the sacred art and architecture that they were contemplating with the eyes of faith. So in this way, the Gothic cathedral was not only a beautiful building with some amazing art and architecture. It was a sacred space that was telling the story of salvation history through the beauty of the images all around them. And the pilgrims, the faithful who came to pray in these churches would read, so to speak, the walls of the cathedral as if they were reading the pages of the Bible. And remember, in the Middle Ages, the people were largely illiterate. So what they could not read on the pages of the Bible, they were able to read on the walls of the church in the beautiful art and sculpture and painting and altarpieces and sacred music that they heard. So that's, I think, art has always had a catechetical value in the church because it reaches us first on a human level, our senses just delight in the sheer beauty of the work of art, the skill of the artist. And then on a spiritual level, we're led to see, to gaze on, to contemplate some aspect of the mystery of God and the mystery of who we are in relationship to God. So sacred art has a catechetical value from the very beginning. And it is a distinct way of coming to know God. It leads us on the way of beauty, that's a phrase that Popes have used, the way of beauty from seeing to contemplation and from contemplation to praise and adoration and worship of God. So that's why we say that art is a path to God. Gem, what would you say are some of your favorite pieces that you've included in the book? That's not an easy question to answer, because they're all of my favorites. I mean, they're just a wonderful collection that we have in this beautiful book. But I would highlight a few that stand out for me. The first one is the Annunciation and Expulsion from Paradise by Giovanni DiPaolo, just a beautiful image from the National Gallery of Art that just allows us to enter into the mystery of this moment of the Annunciation. We see Mary receiving the message of the angel and those lines of the tile drawing our eye back into, not only into space, but into salvation history, because on the left, we see Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden. And the whole scene really brings us, allows us to see the Annunciation as that pivotal moment in salvation history, when all of God's desire to reconcile humanity to Him is now come together in this moment. The next one is the Dream of St. Joseph by Luca Giordano, just a wonderful way in which the artist parallels Mary's Annunciation, the Annunciation to Mary, and this moment when St. Joseph, he was concerned about what he's going to do, is given a message by the angel to take Mary as his wife and to welcome her into her home, and then she will be the one, that she will be the one to bear God's Son into the world. And you see that wonderful sense in which the Holy Trinity is present on the left. You see God the Father, you see the Holy Spirit, and you see Mary who is now receiving Jesus and bringing him into the world, and then St. Joseph, his role as the guardian of the Redeemer, the one who is to protect and guard and teach the young Jesus. The next one is Christ in the House of, I'm sorry, the next one is the Supper at Emmaus by Matthias Stam. This is just a wonderful image here that single candlelight in the center of the painting is radiating beautiful warm golden light onto the faces of the disciples who are in the presence of Jesus as he is breaking bread. We see Jesus breaking bread at the Supper at Emmaus, and we know from Luke's Gospel that this is the moment when their eyes were opened and they begin to experience this Eucharistic amazement at Jesus' presence. And so this painting really draws us into that same moment of Eucharistic amazement that we should have every time we are privileged to celebrate mass. And then the Return of the Prodigal Son by Muriel. This is one of my favorite paintings from the National Gallery of Art, where I used to serve as a docent for many years. But this painting really allows us to enter into that tender moment when the Father embraces the Son, expressing that love and mercy that God has for each one of us. Gem, how many of these masterpieces, just roughly, do you think you've seen in person? And when you see them in person, what does that add to your awe for the piece itself? Sure. You know, I used to be a docent at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, D.C. many years ago. And so in that capacity, I would be standing in front of many of these paintings that are featured in this book and just looking at them for hours sometimes because they're just so beautiful. But also leading tours of, you know, the public visitors coming to the National Gallery. I think that there's something about actually standing in front of a painting that allows you to just appreciate, especially these works that are works of sacred art, appreciate their original context, that they were really created for churches and chapels and side alters and beautiful places of prayer, shrines and places of pilgrimage. And so that's sort of, there's a certain immediacy there when you're standing in front of these works. And that brings up a great point. Most people think art and museums, those go together, just like you said, being a docent. But some of these pieces are just painted on the wall of a monastery, or I have a print of Titian of the presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in my dining room. And that's on a wall somewhere in Venice, I think. So what are some of the some of the favorite pieces in the book that, you know, they could be windows or sculpture that are not in museums, but instead sprinkled around Europe really? Sure. And that again takes us back to that sense of sacred art, right? Of that the original context is so important to understanding both the meaning of the paintings, but the intent of the artist and the patron who commissioned the work of art. Some examples of the calling of St. Matthew in the church of San Luigi, different, Jay-Z in Rome. It's just on a beautiful little side chapel on the wall. And it's just really, you enter into that moment when Jesus is calling Matthew and he follows him as his disciple. The ecstasy of St. Teresa by Bernini, which is a magnificent sculpture, also in a small church in Rome, well not small, but a beautiful church in Rome, is another just a wonderful piece of sculpture that allows us to enter into the life of this St. Teresa and who in many ways the saints are God's masterpieces, right? They're God's work of art in the world because their holiness really reflects the face of Jesus into our world. Then the magnificent fresco cycles of the life of St. Francis, painted on the lateral walls of the great Basilica of St. Francis in Assisi. And we have one of the examples in the book of St. Francis preaching to the birds. But it's that beautiful sense in which the life of a saint really allows us to draw closer to Christ himself and allows us to be better disciples of Jesus. And then another example is Giotto's fresco paintings of the life of Jesus and the life of Mary on the walls of the Scroveini Chapel in Padua. And that again is a beautiful visual depiction just right in that church of these wonderful moments of our faith. Jim, you're bringing up so many of these wonderful masterpieces, but the table of contents of your book, it almost reads like a list of the decades of the rosary, the mysteries of the rosary. Like you said, you began with the annunciation and then of course there's the crucifixion, many depictions of that, the Last Supper, there's the baptism of our Lord. But then you also have pieces of art that are really culturally Catholic. You have the Angelus and like you said, the ecstasy of St. Teresa. So was it hard to narrow down this list for the book? You have 50 images of here of pieces of art. Was it hard? Was it like picking your favorite child, trying to narrow down the list of these beautiful pieces of art? That was certainly a challenge, Mary. And for the simple reason that the Catholic Church has given us but given the world such a rich treasury of sacred art over 2,000 years. And so it's almost an impossible task really to narrow down this list to 50 masterpieces, but we managed to do that, my excellent editor and the great team at 10 books. The list is not meant to be comprehensive, but rather to serve kind of as a good introduction to this immense treasure of sacred art by which the Catholic Church really contributes beauty to the world. These pieces of art are still admired and treasured even by people who are not of faith. That's very interesting. You see in many of the churches and museums in Europe, especially, you know, thousands of visitors and many of them are not people of faith, but they're just there to take in the beauty of these masterpieces of sacred art. And that's sort of I think our great contribution to the world. The pieces that are culturally Catholic remind us of the beauty of the many forms of Christian prayer. So as you mentioned, the Angelus, the contemplative prayer of the rosary, the lives of the saints, again, the saints who are living masterpieces of faith in God. You say this is sacred art that every Catholic should know. What does every Catholic, the big and the small, the young and the old, what do they gain from knowing about these pieces, praying with them, just sitting and looking at them and meditating on them? Thank you, you know, Mary, for that question, because that is my hope for the book. A Catholic reader is going to be able to enter more deeply into the mysteries of the faith by reflecting on these masterpieces of sacred art. So they're not just kind of to make us become somehow an expert in art or just sort of give us an aesthetic moment of appreciation of art. It's really meant to lead us more deeply into the great mysteries of faith that we are privileged to live every day. Because the art is meant to point us to, to lead us to the love of God revealed in Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to lead us to the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, whose birthday we celebrate today, the lives of the saints who are God's masterpieces, the biblical stories that these paintings tell, but sort of take, that help us to see our place in salvation history, that it's not something that's just taking place in the past, but that we are in fact, every day through the faith that we live, we are part of salvation history by which God is reconciling the world to himself. So that's what I hope the, the Catholic reader will take away from this book, an experience of the beauty of faith, most of all, of the beauty of our Catholic faith that leads us to a deeper love of God, love of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, a love of Mary, the saints, and the Word of God. If I may just end with a quote from Pope Benedict XVI, because I think he really captures the hope of this book as I was writing it, this is what he said, Pope Benedict said this, the only effective apology of a Christianity comes down to two arguments, namely the saints the church has produced and the art which has grown in her womb. Better witness, he says, is born to the Lord by the splendor of holiness and art which have arisen in community of believers. And then he says, can the church continue to transform and humanize the world? How can she do that? How can she dispense with beauty in her liturgies, that beauty which is so closely linked with love and the radiance of the resurrection? So he says, Christians must not be too easily satisfied. They must make their church into a place where beauty and hence truth is at home. Leave it to Papa Benny, good old B-16, to really put the exclamation point on it. That was beautiful. Thank you. Again, the book is sacred art every Catholic should know. You can find it right here on tanbooks.com or at your local Catholic bookseller. Dr. Sullivan, congratulations on this really beautiful project that would be at home in every Catholic family, in every Catholic home. Well done. Thank you for all your hard work on it and thanks for being with us today. Thank you so much, Mary, for the chance to speak with you today.