 I'm considered doing a, thanks Jordan, have you ever considered doing a book on art that reflects mystical experience, like Bernini's Piercing of St. Teresa of Avila or Blessed Ludovica in Ecstasy? I have, I mean really that's my field, Bernini is very much my, Baroque is my field and I have a lot of ideas about how the age of Galileo and the possibility of empowering the human eye to see beyond the mortal realm, very inspirational to artists like Bernini who grow very interested in representing mystics but really helping the viewer to see the mystical vision. I think they are very much correlated the two events and so yeah I do have a lot of thoughts on the subject. We could do an awesome webinar with that, with a lot of visuals, you know. Yeah I love the topic, I really do, I think it's fascinating that they really, the 17th century is really in the face of an incredibly empirical world reminding people that there are people, there are the privileged saints who see things that other people can't see. Sorry. Yeah, yeah awesome, awesome. Alright well hey friends you're watching behind the scenes Divine Intimacy Radio and we have an exciting show with Dr. Elizabeth Lev and about St. Joseph in art to end, it's a great way to end the year of St. Joseph to draw our hearts once again to him and his great work. So why don't we go ahead and jump into the show, you ready Steph? I'm ready. Okay, and your mark gets set, go. This is Dan Stephanie Burke, welcome to Divine Intimacy Radio, your radio haven of rest. Your hermitage of the heart. Your monastery of the mind, we lift our hearts and minds to heaven, to the wisdom of the saints. And today, to great art, to help us to see what we didn't necessarily see in the time that it existed but certainly to help us to better understand through the work of art and I think inspired art how it is that we can draw near to those whom God has given us to lead us to heaven. Yeah, I mean in a very important way that I've drawn a lot of people into the church, into the faith, the fullness of the faith. Father John Bartunek converted in great, great, his study of it brought him all the way into the bosom of the church and he's doing incredible work there. Right. So you want to introduce Liz and share, tell folks a little bit about her background and we're going to jump into her book. Okay. The book is called A Silent Night, St. Josephine Art and so it's my honor to introduce Liz Love. Dr. Elizabeth Love received her undergraduate degree in art history from the University of Chicago and her doctorate from University of Bologna specializing in the art of the counter-reformation. She has lived in Rome since 1997 and has taught art history for Duquesne University's Italian campus since 2002. She is also taught at the Pontifical University of Thomas Aquinas. She is a didactic consultant for the Vatican Museums and her articles have appeared in First Things, Magnificat and the Sacred Art Journal. Her books include How Catholic Art Saved the Faith and A Body for Glory. She has lectured worldwide and her TED Talk on the Sistine Chapel has garnered over 1.8 million views. That's fascinating. That's awesome. Welcome, Liz. Thank you. Very happy to be here. It's good to have you back, Liz. You know, I'm fascinated, you know, I'm a convert so I came, I was very much rooted theologically in the Reformation in Calvinist theology before the Lord wrestled me into a deeper understanding of the history of the church. How important, just curious because of your specialization in counter-reformation art, how important was art in the counter-reformation? What was the central role it played? I think the church really relied very heavily on art during the counter-reformation period or, better yet, the period of a Catholic restoration because after the tearing down and the tearing down of teachings, the prestige of the papacy, the role of the saints, the church really needed to build up. And dogmen, doctrine are not things that work well in sound bites. So the Protestants had really mastered the ability to use the newly discovered or the newly reinforced power of the printing press. You know, it's very difficult, these point-by-point answers that need to be so careful. It's not really good reading, right? So what the church relied on was something that it has been engaged with for, you know, since the 2nd century AD, which is art. And so they commissioned artists, they commissioned a great deal of art, they encouraged lay people to commission art that would reinforce teachings. So you would see above an altarpiece something that would draw the mind and the heart to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Awesome. So was there a central, like in terms of counter-reformation art, was it predominantly focused on the Eucharist or was it just more broadly themed? I think there are many, many different aspects of the Catholic faith. So there was a lot of art that was meant to reinforce the Eucharist and also the other sacraments. But there was also a fair amount of art to hold up examples of saints, to really think about people who were leaders and guides towards holiness and to try to make them very accessible and very sort of powerful persuaders to live a life of holiness. There's also biblical stories that explored virtue and vice. I mean, they really, it was a full court press so that people who love images would be able to enjoy the beauty of images, but at the same time take away the teaching, take away the sense of an ancient church, a church that is rooted in an apostolic tradition. I mean, really across the board art was very much, if not a handmaiden, but really an ally to the church. Awesome. So you talked about sacred art being a way to make saints accessible to us and these stories of biblical stories, the important truths of the faith. So keeping that in mind, why did you write this book, this beautiful book on our Silent Night, St. Joseph and Art? How does his art make him accessible or art of him make him accessible to us? The fascinating thing about St. Joseph, he does not show up in art for the first 400 years. So the Christians start making art in the late second century and he doesn't show up in the early lineup. He doesn't really show up until 431. So here is someone who, you know, they're questions about, is he a saint? How does he fit into the story? Should he even be in the story? And then as the centuries progressed, particularly from the turn of the first millennium, the images of Joseph not only start to proliferate, but they start to transform so that you can put up five different images of Joseph. And it's hard to tell that they're the same person because one's old, one's young, one is goofy looking, one is regal looking. And you put them all side by side and you wouldn't really be able to know that they were all Joseph because they don't look alike. And that is the really remarkable thing about St. Joseph is that he because of this ability to take on many guises is able to address different problems that the church has faced over the course of a thousand years. Fascinating, fascinating. So in essence, when we talk about being able to address different issues, so for instance, St. Joseph, the worker, of course, has a specific focus for those who are in manual labor and things like that, right? Is that what you're talking about? Well, I'm talking, I mean, there are so, for example, things I did not know. There was a whole period that sort of starts in the 1300s and you can still find traces of it into the 1600s where you cannot tell St. Joseph and St. Peter apart. They look like the same. They're the same person. And this is addressing a very serious issue that has come up in the church in this period. And that problem is it starts when we have a papacy that moves to Avignon, a papacy that then splits into three different popes. And the idea of someone who will truly espouse the church and be a custodian of the church, the the thinkers at the time, people like Jean-Guerçon and the Franciscan, Jean-Pierre-Olivi, they're thinking in terms of, wait, Joseph. Joseph was a good husband. That's the person that should be an inspiration to the successor of St. Peter. And that's just one example. In terms of all of the images that you've seen before the show, I was able to show you the one one that I love. My preference for Joseph is a strong, younger-ish, you know, forties or so man. My favorite movie image that we talked about before the show was the Nativity. The Nativity movie was created by Protestants, but it was it was more focused on Joseph and his character than Mary. And of course, that makes sense for a Protestant movie about the Nativity in a sense, right, because of extraordinary. But he was exceptional. The acting, the strength, this character, even representing, in many ways, the silence, you know, the quietness, but strong. Do you have a favorite painting of Joseph that really, as you were doing all of this, moved you? Well, so I just addressed these these this film, which I was really struck with. I remember seeing that film and being very struck with that Joseph and the Italians actually made a movie about Joseph. And again, they portrayed him as a young and handsome man. I mean, this is that type of imagery of the viral Joseph who is really a figure of self mastery. I think that's a very important thing about this this making Joseph useful. Youthful is a reflection. It's a theological reflection on the chastity of Joseph. The Joseph has always been a chaste man. He has an example of self mastery. And so you don't need to make him an old, doddering man to, you know, make him make you think that he would never have been interested physically in the Virgin. But really a man who knows how to command himself. And that is really a beautiful example of virility. Insofar as my favorite and this is this is there are there are images of Joseph that I find intellectually very stimulating. I find them quite attractive. But I think the one that my mind always goes to one because I really love the painter. I'm a specialist in the Baroque and his name is Guido Rainey. And he did many, many, many of these images. And they were meant for private homes. They're not meant for, you know, alter pieces. And I I he has a lovely older Joseph dressed like Saint Peter. So he looks like that he's wearing the blue and gold robes that are traditionally the robes of Saint Peter. He's holding the infant Jesus. He's got this big, gray, fluffy beard. And his face is completely absorbed in the child. And so for me, it's not so much that I'm noticing that he looks like an older man instead of a young, virile man. But it's just the way that Rainey captures that absolute marvel and absorption in the in the child in front of him. And then the playful way that Jesus reaches up to play with to sort of touch his fluffy beard. There's just an intimacy in that that I could really see. It was one of the works that made me understand how important private art, art in people's homes, religious art in the home is. So waiting around to go to a museum, which, of course, takes a work of art out of its context and puts it in a sterile context. Or we are waiting around to look at a painting for two minutes on your way out of Mass on Sunday. That's not living with art. And many of the works that we see in these museums that we pay money for, that we stand in line for, are works that were actually originally meant to be in people's homes. And it was part of their daily cornice. Get up in the morning and you have your coffee. And there you have in front of you as your example for the day. I want to be like this man or this woman or I identify with this situation. And we've really, we've lost that. Amen. I well, and I'm grateful that this year has given us a focus to be able to, you know, revisit and reexamine the life of St. Joseph. Of course, as you know, someone we both admire. Father Callaway, who created the devotion to St. Joseph, but we were so moved by it that our whole community took it up this year and did the consecration to St. Joseph. What I think is beautiful about your book is it'll give us, you know, as the years roll on, as we can go back to the, the consecration to St. Joseph, we have the ability to look at a silent night, St. Joseph and art and really rekindle and find those images that mean the most to us. And then what do what I did, which or Stephanie and I did together, which was we purchased a beautiful, large painting of St. Joseph that has all of the characteristics that are meaningful to me and to us that help us in our devotion. But we're going to head to a break. We're with Dr. Liz Lev talking about her book on St. Joseph and art, A Silent Night, and we'll be back right after the break. OK, very good. So you want to go to number two? Sure. OK. All right. Very good. On your mark, get set, go. This is Dan and Stephanie Burke with Divine Intimacy Radio, your radio Haven of Rest. And we're talking with Dr. Liz Lev about her new book, Silent Night, St. Joseph and Art. It's the conclusion of the year of St. Joseph. We're coming to a conclusion anyway. And it's been a beautiful year with we talked, I mentioned before the break, Father Calloway and his book Consecration to St. Joseph, which we've all in this studio have done and in our community has done. And I've really appreciated Liz, his resurrecting the manly kind of version of Joseph. He's got a beautiful painting of St. Joseph, Terror of Demons. How do you what's your take on some of the work he's commissioned? I have a tremendous admiration for Father Calloway, who I have not yet met. I'm just feeling really left out here. I'm sort of running around behind him from interview to interview. But I haven't yet met him. And he actually and the way I discovered him was that when I was really looking to the problem of Joseph today, because when you look at the landscape of art regarding Joseph today, yes, he's in every church. He's now your fixture in every church. But these sort of resin, blah, pastel statues, they look like you can't help it. It's supposed to be on top of a wedding cake. Or, you know, they don't they don't really inspire. And then you have, of course, Joseph is a house kit to sell your house, which is just embarrassing. Yeah, embarrassing is a good word. And then I could cite the Vatican nativity scene from last year, but I think it's best. Yeah, God, someone's going to have to talk to Joseph about that some day. Anyway, the point being, we don't really have much of a landscape out there for Josephine art. And I very, very, very much appreciate what Father Calloway is doing because this is what must be done. Thinking about what Joseph would mean to us today, what he means to our society today and how to represent that by engaging artists today. And there are several artists who have really produced very beautiful images of Joseph, but that's only a beginning. I mean, it really needs in order for us to really find the imagery, the way that it comes out in this book. I mean, what I found out in this research is he really drastically changes because at times when the church is dealing with the problem of whether marriage is defined by consent or consummation, they turn to Joseph and then suddenly we have all these pictures of Joseph in this, in marrying the Virgin. Or when the church finds itself trying to relate to this beautiful strain of Northern art, where we try to relate to the immensity of the holiness of the incarnation. Just imagine us there. Like, what would it be like to. So there's Mary and she's giving birth to God and there's some angels. And what should I do? What are you going to do? And so there's a whole strain of art where Joseph is off doing something kind of goofy because he's trying to help. But, you know, he's like the little guy in the group. And that's a really, really beautiful way for us to enter into these huge events, this huge event, and to make us feel like we are, we have a role and we just kind of watch Joseph. It's these are in their endless numbers. I mean, again, the book is got totally out of hand. I thought it was going to be like this little bitty, like hundred pager and just kept going because I kept finding more veins of this goldmine of Josephine imagery. You know, what's fascinating about it is we look at Joseph and especially for the men, right? Because as women, we can look to him to be our protector and spiritual father and such. But for men, he really provides a model for behavior. And, you know, how how do these different? How can there be such a variety of images of St. Joseph when there were no words for him? None recorded in scripture. So, you know, what do we do? What do the men do? So I'd like the so 15 mentions, no lines. And he's out by chapter two of Matthew and Lou. So and I think that's his secret. Because he's not fixed into a character, he becomes this enigmatic figure that we can impress. He's like, he's like putting and we can impress everything we need on it. And I want to go a little step further and say, you know, the devotion to Joseph. I think one of the great gifts of St. Teresa of Avila is that she taught women how to go to Joseph. Yeah. Because Joseph is a man who deals. And I really, I meditated a lot on this during the pandemic. And really, Joseph became a figure to me during the pandemic where Joseph is a little guy who's got a huge responsibility in the times that he cannot control. You have this crazy power mad king who wants to kill all the infants looking for yours. And then you have the Roman emperor who's like, you know, I need to tax people. I think I'm going to have a census. You have these huge global tectonic powers that are affecting your life and you can't do a thing about it. And Joseph does not whine and say, oh, hey, I hate these times. Joseph is like, OK, got to find a place for this woman to give birth. Got to find a way to get the family out of town. And he just quietly gets it done. And I, you know, I think as I was trying to put this book together, you know, in pandemic circumstances, under lockdown, no libraries open, trying to figure how many to get the research, how many to get the pictures. And I kept going to Joseph, like, yeah, man, it must have been hard. The resourcefulness. He's a very, very, very fascinating figure. Yeah, I know the other thing about St. Joseph in our time is there's this talk of toxic masculinity. And I think that we have the exact opposite problem. I think we have a toxic effeminacy in men. And I think it's it's one of the things that I really was, I don't know, moved by with Father Calloway's work. And of course, some of the artwork that he came out with. And some of what you have in the book is just recovering a holy masculinity, because masculinity in of itself is not problematic. It's the misuse of it, you know, but I think the biggest problem in our time is weakness among men, not strength. Yeah, and I think we have to consider that probably the most masculine, most important aspect of him was his obedience to God, the father, you know, his faithfulness, his docility to God, the father. And in that, he became the fullness of masculinity because he's completely given over to the father and then he gets up and he completes his duty according to the will of the father. There's no wrangling. There's no whining. There's no complaining. There's no giving all the excuses why this cannot happen because of the kings and the powers to be in all the things that Liz described. But rather, God, the father desires this, therefore, I will do it. Cumbent may, right, which is such a precursor to who Christ Jesus is. God, the father desires this. He wills it. Therefore, his will be done in all things, you know, even death on the cross. So such a beautiful example for men. Amen. Amen. So Liz, as you were doing this book, we're talking to Liz Lab. Just as a reminder, she's written a new book, Great Play on Words and the titles A Silent Night, K-N-I-G-H-T. I really like that, St. Joseph in Art. Liz, were there any surprises for you as you as you did this, like images that, you know, struck you in a way that you didn't expect or that renewed your your connection to him? The amount of surprises, it's incredible. The I found images in South American images from Cusco School, where you see Joseph taking in, taking on the positioning of Mary. So he, so these very old images of Mary of Mercy, who has this mantle that brings people together. Joseph suddenly starts to take that, take that, that type of imagery. And actually, it was very, very interesting. What was the timeframe of that? That's 18th century. OK. And there are also this strain of Northern European images where, you know, Joseph is like on his hands and knees, blowing out a fire, trying to get things warm in the cave in Bethlehem. Very, very interesting image and really interesting articles written about Joseph, where Joseph is working with a mousetrap. He's building a mousetrap and he's got them all around. And this kind of imagery talks about Joseph, who's like an ally of God in his work and with that. He's trying to fool the devil. He's the snare for the devil. So the devil's so busy going, well, that can't be it, because that's his father. That in the meantime, the project for salvation progresses. There is a little thing I wanted to I was just thinking about when you were talking about sort of this role of Joseph and Mary and the toxic masculinity. It's a really beautiful example of how complementarity can play out between men and women. Because in the beginning, it's, you know, Hail Mary, full of grace. You know, my soul magnifies the Lord and Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary. But after a while, angels only talk to Joseph. After after that enunciation and after like the the the John the Baptist jumping for joy at the visitation, there's really, you know, Mary just didn't know no more angelic communication. All goes to Joseph. Interesting. So, you know, I'm not a god here. How come nobody talks to me? So it's a really interesting way about how this couple works together. And by the way, every time Joseph has a dream, Mary's got to get up and run after him, right? So it's like, oh, no, time to go to Egypt. Oh, no, time to go back. I have a friend who said Mary at a certain point was probably just like plying Joseph with coffee. Please don't go to sleep. Please don't go to sleep. Please don't go to sleep. But but this this idea of these this man and this woman who are working together on this project and even though kind of the emphasis shifts, it's very, very interesting to see how they just think about how they work together. It's such an example for marriage. You know, if you talk about the intimacy of marriage and partnership and companionship and and emotional intimacy that they in themselves in that communication have such unity, such a beautiful depiction of what marriage should be working together, right? The husband leading spiritually. So, you know, what do you hope that your readers will take away from this after reading this book? I hope that readers will, first of all, see the wealth that St. Joseph has been to the church and to the faithful over over a thousand years. And I think Joseph and I think Father Kalloway feels the same way as patron of the Universal Church. He is perfectly poised to address many of our modern ills, whether it's the toxic masculinity lack of fatherhood or what I loved in Pope Francis's Patrice Corday, that word creative courage, finding solutions for problems in a creative way in what you have around you. That resourcefulness of Joseph. There's so much that he can give our age right now. And to help us understand that, I would really love to see a renaissance of art of Joseph. I would love to see people, as across the board, you know, people talk to me about why don't we have these beautiful artists any more? Well, we're not going to have beautiful artists if people don't commission it and people don't look at it and people don't learn to love it and to understand it. And so I'm hoping that this will be a wonderful occasion to start creating a Josephine imagery, whether it's in films like the Nativity or paintings or statues that make Joseph more present in our daily life and not that little plastic statue that we just kind of walk by as we take our place in the view. Amen to that, Dr. Elizabeth Lev, a silent night, St. Josephine art, you can find that once it's gets through the supply chain challenges, you can find that at EWTN's religious catalog, you can find it at Sophie Institute Press. Sophie is just producing greatest books on the planet. You can find it at spiritualdirection.com forward slash shop. So you don't have to worry about finding it it's a matter of when you'll get it. But I think it's a great Christmas gift if you get it before Christmas or a great gift afterwards anyway for those who are continuing their annual consecration to St. Joseph. So great to have you with us again, Liz, and thank you for your good work and resurrecting the beauty of the church and repurposing it to us to all of us who need it so desperately. OK, until next time. May the God of peace make you perfect in holiness. May he preserve you whole and entire. Spirit, soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our Lord. Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Keep us alive if you would. So thanks again, Liz. It's really appreciate you being on. I forgot to do some commercials, so I got to jump into that or some opportunities for formation for folks. But great to have you with us again. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Great conversation. Bye. Awesome. Take care. So hey, I just want to tell you guys we've got an advent webinar coming up for you. If you want to have a different kind of advent instead of kind of just rolling in and getting lost in all the junk, we have an amazing priest, and I don't say that lightly. He I've I discovered his goodness, holiness, I guess, at an event we're at when he was praying a particular prayer that surprised me at the event that is not known to a lot of people. But I knew what he was doing as he was walking around the sanctuary, both Stephanie and I did. And then so. But we found out later how extraordinary, how exceptional he is. His name is Father John Burns, and we're going to do an advent webinar with him. You can find that sign up for that's free spiritualdirection.com forward slash events. It's going to be Tuesday, November 23rd at 7 p.m. Central. So head out spiritualdirection.com forward slash events. You can sign up for that webinar. It's free and you'll be really, really blessed by him. He's doing some great work in the church. Three things for Christmas gifts that can help your loved ones be holier, which is we don't think about that for Christmas, but that's what it really should be about is getting holier, drawing near to Jesus. So three things I want to tell you about. There's a divine intimacy and marriage retreat in February. And there's a pilgrimage to the Holy Land at the end of May to June and the Avala Summit in July, which is going to be on spiritual warfare. All three of these events would be amazing Christmas gifts, Christmas gifts. Yeah, because so the retreat in February, obviously, if you're for the guys, you know, guys usually by this time of the year, running out of points in the inventory, you know, the secret guy points stuff. And if you want your wife to be really blessed and feel very loved and cared for and work on beautiful intimacy in your marriage, right? All of the right kinds of and we don't make guys do goofy stuff. And no, no, but retreat pilgrimage to the Holy Land. Of course, that stands without having to explain the value of that. May to June and then the Avala Summit in July and spiritual warfare with Father Chad Ripperger and many other exorcists. So help us understand how to fight the good fight in these tough times. spiritualdirection.com forward slash events. We hope to see you there. OK. All right. That's it. God bless. Take care.