 From The Conversation, this is Don't Call Me Resilient. I'm Vanita Srivastava. Folks don't understand how nuanced this phenomenon is. They don't understand how complex it is. And they don't understand the impending crisis if we don't get this right. We have to get this right and there is no margin for error. It was 15 years ago. Police officers flooded CW Jeffries Collegiate in Northwest Toronto. Outside, hundreds of anxious parents stood waiting for answers. The news that police delivered, as we now know, was tragic. 15-year-old Jordan Manners had been killed. It was the first time anyone had been shot inside a Toronto school. Jordan's death stunned his community and the nation. And for many, it punctured the illusion of safety in Canadian schools. Since then, we've seen a slew of reports and funds directed at anti-violence projects. But youth violence hasn't let up in Toronto, Canada's largest city. In fact, it's getting worse. In the Toronto District School Board, the number of physical assaults has risen by 174% in the last eight years. And the number of incidents involving the use of a weapon by a student has risen by 60%. On Valentine's Day, a student was fatally shot inside a Toronto high school. And last month, another shooting happened outside a school. Why is gun violence increasing? And can we slow it down? Devon Jones has spent the past 15 years tackling these questions. He's a teacher and a well-recognized youth worker in the Jane Finch community, where Jordan Manners was killed. It has been described as Toronto's most dangerous area to be a kid. Devon has seen many students who have lost their lives to violence over the years. But he has also saved many lives through programs like YACE, an organization he founded in 2007 that focuses on basketball and academics. One of the former volunteers of Devon's organization is Artavan Azadarad. Artavan is now the executive director of YACE. He is also an assistant professor in the Faculty of Education at Wilfrid Laurier University. And he's written about the root causes of gun violence. Thanks for coming on the pod, both of you. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Artavan, how old were you when you met Devon and how did you meet? I was a teenager. I was about 16, 17 years old playing competitive basketball. I would see Devon in the gym when YACE played. And I think that's the time when I was really developing a passion for social justice and equity due to some of the things I was experiencing, some of the friends I was losing to death, the gun violence, the incarceration. And so I think it started as an informal conversation. I also got into officiating at a young age. And so I know Devon would ask me if I was available to officiate some games. And during those interactions, we would talk about community work, we would talk about issues impacting racialized communities. I was grown up in Scarborough, but traveling to Jane and Finch and the other neighborhoods to play competitive basketball. And I was looking for summer employment. I requested to work with Devon and be with YACE. And that was the spark of us becoming deeper friends. And that work has really just grown since, as I went on to Teachers College, I went to York University, and I remember being in the basement of Devon's house and he was writing me a reference letter to get into Teachers College. And so, you know, for me, he's become a, he was a mentor, he still is, and it's an honor to continue to work with him and to do the community work we really believe in together. And Devon, why is sports such an integral part of this program for you? Well, when we started, the objective was to use sports as a way to galvanize polarized community, meaning that there were, there were two factions in Jane and Finch, the kids North, North of Finch, the kids South of Finch, they almost never, ever coexisted. And there was a history of reprisal and reciprocal shootings between both communities. So I met a coach who had the ability to get the kids together. We felt that would be a good way to unify the community using sports. Also sports would allow for what we call expanded opportunities. A lot of the kids of this neighborhood didn't have access to structured recreation that was local, they're traveling hours to other communities. So we figured that it was a win-win, get the kids together, provide them with expanded opportunities, provide them with a positive outlet, and that way we could make meaningful change in a community with kids who almost never, believe it or not, the kids are from across the street and they almost never, ever coexisted. So we figured that would be a great way to bridge the divide in Jane and Finch. That divide, was that like a, you know, don't cross the street kind of thing? Finch is not the dividing factor, but even deeper than the street, they're real, just theoretical, political, social divisions. You know, so there's a physical street, but there is the history of tragedy and life, loss of life and friends that were killed by the other faction across the street. So the street politics is deep as relates to that level of division and that level of, there's always an eminent reality that there could be, there could be some side, some sort of negative reciprocity around violence. So that's always undercurrent to this day that's very much so pervasive in this community. You mentioned that the children that you work with are vulnerable to violence. How vulnerable to gun violence are the kids and the teens that you work with? Yeah, so this is the way C violence, C violence is one, it's an infectious disease. You look at the way you treat an infectious disease, the way it spreads, the way it decimates, the way it permeates. So what concerns us most also is just at times, just the randomness of this violence, the culture of reprisal and reciprocal shootings. And at times these kids are all lumped into the same schools. So you could imagine how toxic that environment could be where you're in a building, an institution of learning where you have to pretty much, you're negotiating your mortality every single day. We have folks on the ground, we have folks monitoring social media so we can always get some sort of intelligence as it relates to what's taking place in community. And we're also vigilant in being proactive as opposed to being reactive to this phenomenon. And what makes it even more disturbing is the fact that after these homicides, folks will go on social media and they will troll. You know, they'll make fun of the disease. We see, for example, that the perpetrators of gun violence, particularly in Toronto, are getting younger. The number of daylight robberies and shootings have increased and it's creating this atmosphere of unease. We're starting to see more shootings on school properties. We've had multiple deaths of 15-year-olds. When we look at the report done by Dr. Tania Sharp, you know, 75% of Canadian homicide victims are African-Caribbean or from Black communities. And there's an overrepresentation. So I think what we need to do is really break it down. What are the risk factors that drive someone towards violence, whether that's gun violence or other forms of violence? And what are the protective factors? Access to quality programs, access to mentors, providing services in a social or reflective way that values and recognizes the traumas, racialized, Black, Indigenous people of color experience. These helps push people away from gravitating towards violence and then connecting them with social support services, helping them with employment, housing. Devan, I've heard you talk about this a lot and you get really passionate about it, which is, you know, we are talking about children. What is it that happens to children? They go from like 13 years old to turning into sort of these kind of almost adult-like people who are carrying weapons. How would you sort of characterize that gun problem that we're talking about? That's a great question, actually, because, you know, for folks like myself and Ardevan, the perpetrators of violence that we're looking at, there aren't kids that we're reading about in a book. Some of these individuals we taught, we quote, we've been around them since they were, you know, nine, 10, even younger, right? And then to end up to seeing the final product or seeing that level of moral decay, where the concept of life or death does not mean much to them. For me, it's the million-dollar question. It's like not so much what's wrong with you, but understanding what has happened to you, you know, and that is why we have a, you know, we have a psychologist on the team who is helping us understand, you know, what leads to that. So a lot of time people are punitive. They are, they think they can lock these kids away, but I'm like, now let's try and make sense of it. Let's make sense of the 400 homicides since Jordan minus that in a TDSB school. There's been 400 homicides as school-age kids, 21 and under, right in the GTA. That's an astounding number, isn't it? You know, so let's try and make sense of who are these young people. Let's try and make sense of the demographic data. Let's try and make sense of, you know, what postal court are these young people from? What were their achievement levels in school? What did they have access to? And let's look at it, let's look at the qualitative or qualitative variables that would contribute, like I said earlier, to that level of moral decays. Artavan, you said something about good kids and bad kids. You wrote an article about this, too. Is it bad kids or bad places? Where is all the violence originating from? Why did you feel it was an important question to ask? Let me tell you the backstory of how I wrote that paper was, one day I picked up the newspaper in front of it in big bold letters. It said, why are all the good kids dying? And it was at a time when three 15-year-olds had died within the span of six weeks in Toronto. And I kind of really sat with that headline, like what if, quote unquote, they were bad kids? Would they make the fun page of the news? Would their story matter? Would their stories be heard? And whether we label them as good or bad kids, does anybody really deserve to die? So for me, it was this entry point of that question itself and that entry point of looking at gun violence or the level of violence impacting the community is actually detrimental because it actually perpetuates stereotypes. And so I think when it comes to gun violence, we need to work with communities. We need to value the lived experiences. We have to acknowledge the intergenerational trauma, the colonial history, the white supremacy that has impacted institutional policies and practices and particularly where they failed. I think, since George Floyd, we are in a bit of a more world culture, but change is still slow. It could still be performative and this checklist approach. And so we always have to measure, where were we 30 years ago? Where were we 15 years ago since Jordan Manners? And has a whole lot changed because this year alone, we've had three incidents of 15 year old shootings or deaths on school property, right? And so when I think about the 1982 race relations report by Stephen Lewis, which happened after the Young Street uprisings, there really a whole lot hasn't changed in 30 years. It's becoming like a broken record of cycles of up and down, a bit of quiet, then the violence happens and it's not simply about accessing a gun because I can tell you, it's very easy to access a gun for many people but many people choose not to do it because of the other protective factors like what they got too much to lose, they make good choices, they have access to a mentor. So we have to kind of focus on, what are the protective factors to actually get people away from the vulnerable circumstances or the risk factors they're exposed to? You said you looked at the headline and the way that it was, talked about these good kids. But race is such a big factor there where we can talk about the 2005 incident with Jane Creba, whose death was tragic, but media focused on that killing quite a bit and this idea of innocence, the innocent death. So I think what stands out is the level of commitment from the institutions to try to seek justice for Jane Creba. We see an extensive amount of policing, wiretapping the amount of police officers that were assigned to the case. And it's not to say the death of Jane Creba wasn't important, but from an equity lens, we ask are all cases treated with such priority, particularly when the victims are black and are coming from racialized communities? It's easy to say, oh, well, they were getting involved or they were a bad kid. So therefore, it was bound to happen. That's what we need to disrupt. And if we're not willing to support folks who are exposed to the most risk factors and are in vulnerable conditions, how can we then expect these cycles and in many cases, this intergenerational cycles of poverty and violence to be disrupted? If somebody whose mother or father is incarcerated, they're more likely to gravitate towards violence because of a lack of a mentor, a lack of a support system at home. How do we support the person, but also the family unit and also the community? Yeah, I guess you're talking about some of the reasons why some of the children and the young people that we're talking about are vulnerable to the effects of gun violence. Why are some children more vulnerable than others? Yeah, a 2018 report by People for Education found that province-wide, the average ratio for guidance counselors was 396 students for every counselor. How can that happen within a community who is impacted by violence, whose students may be grieving the death of a student they know? It's impossible to do it effectively. So this is where we mean we need to funnel and decide where do we put the resources to actually be preventative versus reactionary. Just because we have a few deaths, we'll say, well, let's invest more money in policing. But we know that has been historically and continues to be a failed strategy. We actually need to invest in creating access and affordability to those programs and social support services, which will reduce risk factors and increase protective factors. Tell me about this project. You both partnered with the City of Toronto and this Towards Peace and Anti-Violence Project. Maybe, Devon, you could start. What are you hoping to do with this project? It's a unique initiative because it seeks to target those who are at the centre of producing violence and ensuring that every step of the way we surround them with folks, with lived experiences that can somewhat mitigate what's taking place. So, you know, oftentimes, I find communities are reacting to what's taking place, but it's understanding what's taking place and ensuring that there are folks on the ground that can disrupt, that can interrupt, and that can walk folks off the ledge when they need to. Provide them with meaningful options to implement education, mentorship, and positive alternatives. So, Towards Peace, it's a great initiative. It's ran well in places like Sacramento, Chicago, and so on, and we've modified it in a sense to make sure the Toronto Virgin Acid works or it's engaging those or the core of producing violence. Hmm. We often hear about and focus our attention on gun violence when we're talking about it. It's in the U.S. over incidences in Canada. Can we even compare the two situations? We're worried about some of those trends from the U.S. setting a route if we don't put meaningful infrastructure in place to disrupt some of this earlier. With every shooting, the issue becomes more complex. The more we pretend this is not happening, it intensifies because you're talking about unresolved or unaddressed issues. So in a sense, yes, if there's a lot, we can learn from the U.S. about the mistakes they have made and we can act accordingly. And if we don't act accordingly, if we're not proactive, then we're going to deal with some of the highest escalation in places like Chicago and so on that we see taking place there. What happens a lot of times is we think the level of violence is so much worse in the United States, but we actually try to dismiss how racialized communities are impacted by violence here in Canada. And that's very detrimental and harmful. So we can compare to the United States around what are some best practices? What are some programs that work? And so there are some things we can take, but a copy and paste approach will not work for Canada because the diversity of people are different. You look at neighborhood histories and how violence has escalated, it's very different. So we can take some good things and also learn from mistakes such as investing in more policing. It doesn't solve the problem. How do we not just focus on the high profile situations? We kind of have to go back to once again, what are the basic risk factors? If we look at the review of the Roots of Violence that came out a year after the death of Jordan Manor, we look at the report, the TSP report that was done by external stakeholders around some of the recommendations. They've all been identified, but we are not moving on the actions fast enough where we're losing more lives, right? We need to start enacting it. We don't need another study to tell us what are the problems and what are the solutions. What we need is more resources, more funding, more synergy across the institutions and the sectors to actually do the work and involve community with it. So one of the great things about Two Words Peace and New Narrative, the Violence Prevention Interruption and Intervention Programs at YASES, community is with us at every step of the way, right? We value residents' voices. It is community driven and it uses that public health approach which is proactive. You said public health approach and I think that might be a little confusing. If you could take a few minutes just to describe what do you mean by public health approach? So let's say the Act here is an act of violence. Somebody checks into the hospital and they've been stabbed or shot, okay? Well, we're not just gonna focus on the wound. We're going to say where was this person before they arrived? Who did they interact with? What is their family situation like? What kind of support services did they have access to or they couldn't access? And how did all of these factors contribute to this tragic incident of a stabbing or a shooting, all right? And so that's kind of an example of the public health approach. It's very data driven in terms of identifying those trends and then how do you mitigate it and how do you track that over time? So for example, With Two Words Peace and New Narrative on the case management we provide to clients, we track them through this idea of a life map of what are their goals in employment and housing? How are we supporting them? Where are they three months from now? Where are they six months from now? Where are they one year from now? How do we support them if they now are incarcerated a while we were supporting them? How do we support them while they get incarcerated? And we're working with the MCCS Youth Justice Division and Ministry of Solicitor General to talk about how do we help people transition back into community? Because we know the first 48 hours where they give you a bus ticket and say, okay, they're released, that's when folks are the most vulnerable to committing acts of violence or having health issues, depression, suicidal. So how do we make sure we more effectively reintegrate folks back into community? And this is why it just can't be a policing, a media or an education solution. All the stakeholders have to work together. Both of you are committed to the work that you do. And I know that Devon, you mentioned Jordan Manners and I've heard you mention that you used to teach him when he was probably in elementary school. How do you deal with the daily challenge of the work that you do? I know for me, the therapy is in the prevention. It's like you're trying to put a puzzle together of the 1,000 pieces. And every time you think you've made meaningful progress, you realize that there's a piece out of shape, out of place or there's a shape that's missing or something is not congruent. For me, the therapy is in the solving this equation. It's getting people to understand, it's getting government to understand, getting school board and stakeholders to understand. So the work is quite daunting. I told my team on Monday morning, if we can fix this problem and if we can provide Canada as a whole with meaningful alternative to this phenomenon, we are in so much trouble. Folks don't understand how nuanced this phenomenon is. They don't understand how complex it is and they don't understand the impending crisis if we don't get this right. We have to get this right and there is no margins for error. That's just the reality of it. I never thought when I started teaching school in 1999 as a 24 year old young man that I would eulogize a student or I would sit in a courtroom when a young person is convicted to a life sentence or I would see countless mothers mourn in the lot where my father's buried up the road at Beachwood. I got four students in that same lot who have lost their life under 18 years old. It's dealing with those personal situations and understanding that if we can't prevent this from occurring, if we can't prevent meaningful alternative or alternatives, then who can? And that's what, that's a driving force and that's the therapy for myself personally is ensuring that we solve this puzzle. We've heard a lot of people calling for defunding of the police or a reallocation of police budget. So based on what you've seen, where do you want that money to go? As I said, I've lost scores of young people and I have scores of young people who are institutionalized based on what is taking place in the communities around violence and it has nothing to do with policing. That's to do with the fact that for the most part, there were issues around access. There was issues around social infrastructures. There was issues around parenting. There were issues around a very violent subculture, a very violent ecosystem that was left unaddressed for too long. Jane Finch has the highest concentration of gangs, youth gangs. They have the lowest achieving schools in this province. They have some of the lowest income levels in this province. So obviously we need to look at that. I think if you ask five different people who use the phrase defund the police, there may be five different entry points and it's okay to not be on the same page. And my perspective, I don't think police are a non-factor, but I don't think they are the solution. If you ask me, defund the police, my take would be that I'm not saying to have zero policing, but we need to have policing that works with community and where possible some of those services that are offloaded to the police right now be provided by other professionals who have relationships with the community, such as healthcare services, mental health checks that can not only free up the police to perhaps invest their time and energy in alternative approaches that helps communities thrive. So I think for me, the policing is one aspect of, as Devan said, this thousand piece puzzle, it definitely policing as an institution in association with the justice system habits inequities and it does need to revamp in many ways because we know racialized communities are impacted from racial profiling to sentencing to the conditions within jails, but policing alone in the justice system is not gonna solve the issue if they don't work with the healthcare system, the education system, with folks with lived experiences in community, with post-secondary institutions and subject experts. I guess that's your violence disruptors that you're talking about are people with lived experience in the communities. Yes. Guys, it's been amazing to speak with you. Thank you guys so much. That's it for this episode of Don't Call Me Resilient. I hope you learned something. I know I did. Are you doing something in your community for youth? Do you want to get involved? If you're still there, write to us on Twitter. I'm at writevenita, that's W-R-I-T-E-V-I-N-I-T-A, and tag our producers at ConversationCA so they can join in. Use the hashtag, don't call me resilient. You can also find us on Instagram or Facebook, search for the Conversation Canada. If you'd like to read more about gun violence, go to theconversation.com. We have an article by today's guest, Artavan Izadarad, with links to additional stories and research. Finally, if you like what you heard today, please help spread the word about the pod, tell a friend about us, or leave a review on whatever podcast app you're using. Don't Call Me Resilient is a production of The Conversation Canada. This podcast was produced in partnership with the Journalism Innovation Lab. The lab is funded by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, and the series is produced and hosted by me, Benita Srivastava. The lead producers on this episode are myself and Danielle Piper. The consulting producer is Jennifer Morose. Our associate producer is Rithika Shanoi. Our assistant producer is journalism student Oli Nicholas. Remitula Sheikh is our audio editor. Ataka Kaki is our marketing and visual innovation consultant, and Scott White is the CEO of The Conversation Canada. And if you're wondering who wrote and performed the music we use on the pod, that's the amazing Zaki Ibrahim. The track is called Something in the Water. Maybe they buy something in the water. Maybe they buy something in the water.