 Donald Trump announced yesterday that America will be pulling out of the Paris climate accords. But... Kathy Griffin is the one who has to apologize. Yeah, that makes sense. It's Friday, 3 a.m. June 2nd, 2017. I'm David Feldman. We have a lot of shows, so let's get right to it. On today's show, comic Tamer Catan. My childhood hero Bert Ross is back. Comedian Tom McCaffrey and constitutional law professor Corey Bretschneider. You're listening to the David Feldman radio program. You said pathetic hump. Trump City's pulling out of the climate accord because it's a threat to the economy. You know what else is a threat to the economy? The polar ice cap's melting. Welcome to the broadcast. I'm David Feldman. DavidFeldmanshow.com. Please friend me on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter. Please do all your Amazon shopping via the David Feldman show website. We get a small percentage of everything you purchase. It does not cost you more money. Just go to DavidFeldmanshow.com. You'll see some Amazon banners. Click on them. You'll be taken to Amazon. Shop away. That shopping session, we get a small percentage of everything you purchase. It helps keep the lights on. And I promise you, every penny you spend goes towards keeping this show going. Another way to support this show is by going to DavidFeldmanshow.com. And for $5 a month, you can gain access to all our premium content for only $5 a month. Or if you want to give more. And once again, every penny you give, every penny you donate goes towards keeping us going. The David Feldman radio program is made possible by listeners like you. You sad pathetic humps. We have a great show today. Comic Tamer Catan as Back Tamer began his comedy career in Los Angeles and New York. But very quickly, he's begun to tour internationally. He's performed in Afghanistan for our troops. He's performed at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian Revolution. He has an interesting story to tell us about that. He's performed at Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. And he is the winner of the 2015 World Series of Comedy, his TV and radio credits, are international in their scope, BBC, Sky TV, as well as locally here in the United States, Fox, Hulu, HGTV and TruTV. Then my childhood hero, one of our greatest Americans, Bert Ross, is back. Many of you know his story. He hasn't been here for a while. If you're new, we have some new listeners. When you hear Bert's story, you're going to be amazed at how disrespectful I am towards him. He's a pretty remarkable fella. It's even more remarkable how I treat this man, considering that when I was growing up, my mother and father spoke of him as though he was the second coming. Speaking of the second coming, Professor Corey Bret Schneider is back. And this time I prepared. I did. We're going to be, we're much more organized in our constitutional law class this week. And then we wrap it up with comedian Tom McCaffrey, who you've seen on Comedy Central and movies like Swap, Adrenaline Junkie, and a movie he wrote and directed, Adventures in Comedy. Tom has been doing stand-up since 1999. You will recognize him from Best Week Ever, Comedy Central's premium blend, and his full-length comedy CD. I love the title of this. Lou Diamond Phillips. Lou Diamond Phillips. It's got a question mark at the end. A few years back, Punchline Magazine named Lou Diamond Phillips, I'm sorry, Lou Diamond Phillips, as one of the top 10 comedy CDs. Say with us, we have a lot of show. You're listening to the David Feldman radio program. Use sad, pathetic hump. You're listening to the David Feldman radio program. Use sad, pathetic hump. Joining us is Tamer Katan. Yes, sir. And you are on the streets of Manhattan because things have gone really bad for you. No, you're waiting to go on. We just did John Fugelsang's show for Sirius XM, and I asked you to do my show. You said you had to go do a set. I said, why don't I talk to you before you go on? So you're on the streets of Manhattan. I'm back in the studio. Let me give you an introduction. Tamer Katan began his comedy career in Los Angeles and New York. He has performed everywhere for our troops in Afghanistan. You've performed at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian Revolution. My daughter, my daughter was there. We talked about that. My daughter was, yes. You've been at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland, where you received three four-star reviews from the international press. You lived in London for a year, and you were most recently featured on Seth Rogen's Solarity for Charity event with Todd Glass, Hannibal Barris, and you won the 2015 World Series of Comedy. Yes, sir. And now you're on the David Feldman show. And I'm more excited than anything else. I've been such a big fan of yours even before we met. So it's a real for me that we've become friends. Yes, and you were great today on the John Fugelsang show. And surprisingly, you have been raised Christian, Muslim, and Jewish. You identify as what? Episcopal, right? You know what's funny? I don't, I am not a religious person. I do believe in God, but I don't believe in human beings. So I just don't, you know? I believe in God the way I used to believe I was going to win the lottery and the office pool. Like because everybody was contributing a dollar, I'm like, ah, what's going to hurt? Here's a buck, but I'm not going to give you a 10. So I have like a dollar's worth of beliefs. I'm not an atheist because I just don't think we're smart enough to know for sure. But I, but I, boy, do I not, a boy am I not a fan of organized religions. We'll get to Donald Trump in a second because he just withdrew from the Paris climate accords. And I know you're very happy about this because you're, you're not a fan of the planet, right? Oh God. It's even, it's sarcasm is even hard with this guy. You know what I mean? It's, it's so tough. I, I, it's the craziest thing is normally when I hate somebody, I have a very specific reason why. And I know some people like hates a big word. No, it's the right size word for him. I, I think the stuff that he's doing, it's almost like a Greek tragedy. I, this really is one man who is so selfish, so hate filled that he's willing to let innocent people die, children die, poor people die, women's rights taken away, gay people in immigrant's lives become exponentially more dangerous. All because he didn't, doesn't have enough character to take a joke. I think Obama made fun of him and, and I think that Trump went insane. And I think all of this goes back to one thing and it's all a revenge. It's all revenge. All right, wait a second. What do you mean Obama made fun of him? Obama made fun of him at the, at the White House press event. And he, he, he went up and made those series of jokes about the birther, the BS birther claims that Trump tried to make himself famous again with. And, and then Obama had an amazing speech, a hilarious speech and a good portion of it, the whole, the whole middle of it actually, was making fun of Donald Trump saying, you know, you know, hey, Donald Trump, I even have a, not only do I have a birth certificate, I even have the video of my birth. They made, made fun of him, made fun of Fox News. And then compared his job to Trump's and he said, you know, Trump, you did this amazing thing when you were, what leadership skills you have, deciding between little John and Gary Busey and Gary Busey. Yeah, it's so funny. And I saw an entire room laughing and the core of the earth, which is his orange head. It was like watching a teapot bubble. He, he just, he cannot take a joke. He was shaking back and forth like he was standing in front of the wailing wall. It was, it was as if he had autism or some kind of disorder where he was rocking back and forth from the, from the anger that was, that was filling his body. I'd never seen anything like it. He's a sick, sick man and it's, it's dangerous. And, and yet we're so involved in our process that we can't just say, you know what, this is bullshit. This guy's obviously hurting the country. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, it doesn't matter. He's hurting the country and he's putting people, people's lives in danger and we need to put a stop to this immediately. And it's just, it's insane to me that it's happening, especially as an Egyptian, because I left a country that imploded. You know, I see a clear distinction between Egypt and Egyptians. Egyptians are good people. The Egyptian government was garbage and it, and it chewed its people up and spit its people out, but people forget. Egypt is not just a homeless man. It's a homeless man that used to be a CEO. Egypt used to say we're number one and the whole world agreed. In America used to be able to say we're number one. I think the Egyptians invented the number one. You are correct. You are absolutely correct. Well, it's heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking to see this happening here, especially in a place where so many people invested dreams. Right, right. Yeah, I hear you. I agree with you, except I don't think he decided to run for president because Obama made fun of him. I think he runs for president. I think he appears in public for the same reason most comedians do. And it's, we're so dead inside. The only time we feel alive is when we're getting a reaction from people. Sure. And I think there's a lot of self loathing and loneliness. And he needs some kind of reaffirmation. I'm not so sure a vendetta against Obama, as he would pronounce it, is enough of a motivation. I don't know. But it's just, I guess I'm just trying to find the rationale behind the decision. Yeah. And it's tough. It's a really hard thing to understand any logic behind what he's doing outside of intentionally trying to hurt people. Yeah. Well, there's no excuse for domestic abuse. That's what they say. And this is domestic and foreign abuse because he's just pulled out of the Paris climate accord. How do you, that I want to understand. We were talking about that with Fugl saying today. And you said it's an act of terrorism. And I think I literally, I do think it, the definition of terrorism is to scare people and make them feel unsafe. Yeah, exactly. He is a, he is a terrorist because he knows terrorism is a good business. What do you mean? He's, he's an opportunist. He puts money before lives. And I think that he sees terrorism as a form of control. Like even when I was a kid and I had a friend who had this really well trained dog, everybody was watching this dog do every trick his, his, his owner told him to do. And all the other kids were impressed. I was looking at this dog going, don't stop it. You're a beautiful, majestic animal. Stop doing what you're told all the time just for him to handle you a couple pieces of bacon. And I feel like that's the way I feel like with these people that have this blind devotion to this man, like the Republican party reminds me of a battered wife where I'm like, why you deserve better than this. You know, he's not, he's not on your side. He doesn't like you. He's just hurting you and beating you and they keep making excuses for it. Like, oh, it was my fault. The meatloaf was cold. It's, it's, it's, it's like a group illness. Well, maybe we shouldn't make cold meatloaf. Maybe we should, maybe we can placate him. It's our fault for not making dinner while wearing a miniskirt and pine yields. Yeah, I agree with you. I think there's nothing you can do to get somebody to stop hitting you. And he just wants to smack you. And I think Hillary, when Bill was president, got that. She understood that. What's going on? I agree. What's going on? Sorry, Siren's going by. Sorry, it's the, the, the Sonic branding of New York City is the Siren. Oh, it's great. It's like the Nokia ringtone of New York City. Sorry, I knew that was going to happen. Now you were born in Egypt. Yes sir. And Cairo. You were born in Cairo. I'm going to assume Nasser was already dead when you were born? Yes. Sedat was in, Sedat was the president at the time. And do you remember his assassination? I do. And where were you? Very much so. It was, I was in America. We'd come to America at that point. And I remember I cried for the first time. It was the first time I cried for a stranger. I remember I had, I had a lot of pride. It's funny because we always talk about in America, we're so progressive. We talked about having a black president, like it was a really big deal. And we had a black president in Egypt when I was four. So I remember I was really proud, not just because he was a black man, that was the leader of Egypt, but because he was a black man and we had a British wife who was a white woman. And it was just like this really, it was a time of such national pride. You know, I mean, after, we haven't had shit since the pyramids, besides sex on the city flavor to hookup flavors. And then in comes, you know, Sada and he wins the Nobel Peace Prize. He makes peace with Israel. He starts to make connections with the West. He starts to disengage with the corrupt Russian government that was using Egypt as a shield against the US in a lot of ways, or fighting Israel for Russia. It was just I was really proud. It made me feel like here is this man who really was somebody. He did what Trump claims to do. He really was someone who came in not as a politician, but for the people. And it was I was so proud of him, even as a kid. I had a lot of pride for him. Yeah. And then he was replaced by Mubarak, who was kind of arrested. He was living in detention home. What do they call that? Not homeschooling. House arrest. House arrest. And now he's out. Now Mubarak is out among the people, right? Yeah. It's a really interesting thing because a lot of people say, how did Egypt go from such a liberal environment with Sadat to almost a monarchy with Mubarak? And people forget that Mubarak was sitting right next to Sadat when he got shot. So Mubarak was sitting right next to him. So he watched him get assassinated. And he immediately became he became a scared leader. And that's what changed everything. When you have a man that's full of fear, back to your first point about fear, ruling by fear is a very dangerous thing for any country. And especially in America when that doesn't have to be the case. Do we know who shot Sadat? Was there some link between the people who shot Sadat and the Muslim Brotherhood? 100 percent. It was the Muslim Brotherhood. But here's the thing, when that happened, Mubarak kicked the Muslim Brotherhood out of government. They were no longer allowed in government. So what they did is then they went grassroots and guerrilla marketed and they went to all these really small impoverished and literate communities around Egypt to guerrilla market for the Muslim Brotherhood. So then when the Egyptian government collapsed and there wasn't strong forms of communication, guess who was ideally positioned to build a political party? It was the Muslim Brotherhood. Morsi. They were like the Morsi, exactly. So the Muslim Brotherhood actually turned their weakness into a strength because they were sent away as outcasts. And when they were outcast, they campaigned in a guerrilla marketing style. And that's how come they were able to thrive in a post-revolutionary environment. Now let me ask you about the Muslim Brotherhood when they were outcast. When they were outcast, did they shake it like a Polaroid picture? I'm sorry. I'm just an a-hole. They shook it like a hieroglyphic. So, but what's his name? The ophthalmologist or the doctor who was Osama bin Laden's right-hand man? Oh, yeah. I didn't see season three of terrorism. So I'm not sure of the name. But his name is Alawali or whatever. He's still alive. Yes. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And he, the Muslim Brotherhood, was the precursor to Al-Qaeda? So didn't Osama bin Laden take a lot of his learning from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Well, since you're not sure, and you don't have a computer in front of you, yes, he did. I think Muhammad Atav was from Egypt, too, right? Yeah. I think that, yeah, there was a- He flew one of the planes into the- There was, yeah, there was too many Egyptians involved. Well, I mean, mathematically, you have to remember, there's 90 million people in Egypt. So when people say there were eight people, or seven people from Egypt involved, okay, it was simple. But there were 89 million, 993,000 people that were. Do you go back there at all? No. You know, I went during the revolution, and I had sort of a scary experience, to be honest. You had a what? And so I haven't been back since. What kind of experience? Yeah, so I was performing at the American University in Cairo, literally has the word American in it. And it was a famous theater that's been there for years. And when the show started, about the middle of my set, I started to feel really comfortable. People were laughing at some of my tester jokes, where I was kind of getting a feel for the audience and seeing how far I could go. And then when I started talking about having a Muslim dad and Jewish mom, I noticed a guy in the front row, the only guy that wasn't laughing. And he had this thing on his forehead, that in Egypt we call a zibiba. And zibiba means raisin. So if you're a fundamentalist Muslim, sometimes you'll bang your head into the ground when you pray, so you get like a little scar. And it makes you look more pious. Like you pray so much that you have a scar on your forehead. So he had one of these things. And at one point down my set, he stood up and tried to come towards the stage and security grabbed him. And he made like a bunch of noise and was yelling and screaming. And I actually went up to him at the end of the show when security was grabbing him. Sorry. And I said, I said, hey, listen, how about educate me? Tell me what it is that I did that was wrong. And he said, no, you're fine. You don't know any better. You're American. And I go, no. Educate me so I know how to not upset you because that's not my goal. My goal was not to come here to upset you. My goal was to make you laugh. And I go, I mean that. And he goes, and I could tell, like I really took him in my back because he only knew how to fight. And when I wasn't fighting, it confused him. And then he said, you can't joke about culture anymore. And he walked out and I was like, culture. And then as he's walking out and yelling out, I'm like, culture is too big. Wow. Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock think American colleges are politically correct. Right? Yeah. Let them play. How are you being received in America? I would think you self identify on stage as Muslim. Yes. And I would assume that as long as you stay in the North Easter above the Mason-Dixon line, you're doing swell. You're correct. I've had two death threats both from Oklahoma when I was on the road in the South. What's that like to get a death threat? You want to hear something? Well, they believe, excuse me for one second, Oklahoma actually believes that Sharia law is being set up in Oklahoma, right? Oklahoma where the only terrorist attack that ever happened was done by a white military man. Yeah. Tim. Yeah. What was that? And they, they, Timothy McVeigh. Wasn't that Timothy McVeigh? Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So it just, it boggles my mind and it shows you what fear does. Rationally, they should be afraid of white military men or people with too much gun, too many guns. But instead, somehow they were manipulated to believe that Arabs are the enemy when no Arab has ever done anything in Oklahoma on a level of, something that could be qualified as terrorists, a terrorist act, but a white military man had. And it's just, it's just fear. Fear creates tribes and those tribes is what makes that dog obey. Right. Its identity is the strongest human drive is the drive to belong. And I think that's the real danger. I think, I think the biggest piece of fake news is when politicians convinced Americans that white was a race. There is no such thing as the white race, but it was a way for rich white people to convince poor white people that they were the same so they would stop revolting against them for dying without owning any land. That's, that's the real lie is that white is a race. Well, what do you tell these Jacksonian conservatives who voted for Donald Trump? They're starving for an identity. They look around and they, they see gays and Muslims and Mexicans and everybody has their own identity. Everybody's an aggrieved party. What would you tell somebody who thinks they're white in Oklahoma? They're out of work. Their kid is addicted to meth. They feel like they're an aggrieved party. Yeah. What is their identity? Well, the thing that I tell, the thing is that I would tell them is a thing that I say to any immigrant that I've met that's come to American was worried about losing their identity. And it's that you, like I have, my family to me is not just the family I was given. It's also the family that I've chosen and the combination of the two makes me feel like a complete person. It makes me happy. And I think that's what I learned very early on in my youth is that I was neither Egyptian or American. I was just thinking the middle and I wasn't an Arab American. I'm an American Arab and I get to choose to have that identity. And I didn't need to lose anything in order to embrace something new. And I think the same thing has to happen right now. I think if you're feeling like you're not a part of America anymore, then that's on you. Like there are things that are happening in this country that do not have to do with race and culture and color. They're just made to feel that way because that's what politics has made us believe. Why does politics do that to the Caucasian? What do you call this aggrieved hillbilly? It's the opposite of what the country is about, right? The word united is when citizens have power over government. And I don't think anybody on either side would disagree that we're not the most close to the most divided we have ever been. And I think part of that reason is because politicians now have more power than they, you know, they're taking more power than they ever had. And the reason why they're taking power is because we're more divided. We have a vested interest to be united because it protects us from power-hungry mongers. It's united as our secret sauce. So it's up to all of us, even people that are on the liberal side, it's up to all of us to reach across the table and find common ground and look for people that serve both sides of this country well. We can't be divided like this anymore because it'll ruin the country. Right. Let me push back a little just because this is a show and there always has to be a little conflict. Without conflict, we can't do a show. You described this fanatic watching you at the American University in Cairo. He had a, what's it called, a beta on his head? Zibiba is an Arabic word. It means raisin. And that was his identity. Yeah, he has this little black mark on his forehead from almost like a callus on your hand. They get a callus on their foreheads from banging their head on the ground. So people all have an identity and I would assume at some point you, like Barack Obama, President Obama, struggled with finding out what your identity was because you were born in Egypt, your mother is Jewish, your father is Muslim, so you, like Obama, had to make a decision as to what your identity was, right? Yeah, correct. And I'll tell you, here's the funny thing. Racists believe that the country is more in danger because there are foreigners coming in and they don't really love the country. They didn't treat them better. Do you know what I mean? Like I became very American. I have, I really, I've been on three military tours now to Afghanistan. I have tons of friends that are in the military now. Guys that email me from war zones, probably twice a month, and I'm very much in contact with. Being racist to someone doesn't make them love your common country more. It creates hate. It's that racism creates terrorism. That's what it, I spoke to this old man in Egypt and I said, what do you think causes terrorism? And he said, he said, oh my God, what was this language? It was, it was about belonging, right? He said they would rather, it's, oh, here's what it was. It's scarier to be alone than it is to die. That these kids, they would rather die and feel like they're a part of something than live and feel alone. Right. So we all want to be loved. We, some of us want to be married. We want to be in a relationship. Yeah. We want to be part of a team, part of something that's bigger than we are. We want to get out of ourself. I have a friend who's going through a crisis right now and I keep saying, get out of yourself. And being part of, being part of a tribe helps you get out of yourself. 100%. So let me get back to the- And having hope. Having hope. Believing that you have some control over your destiny. What do you say to the Trump supporter? Don't they need an identity? They do need an identity. Here's what I said. And I said this to one of my friends who said that she's a gal from the South and she's anti-feminism quote unquote. And I said, how can you be? It's just about equality. And she said, you know what though? It's just that the people that are representative of feminism are people who make me feel like I'm not as good as they are for choosing to be a state of mom. And I said, I don't know how real that is, but I acknowledge your feelings. And I don't know how you got to that conclusion, but acknowledge that feeling. And I think we just need to, as we evolve as a culture, we need to leave room for people that are going to evolve slower than us to not necessarily punish them, but to help them to pull them along with us and to show them how this is better for the- We need to do what John F. Kennedy told us to do. We're all much more selfish than we were when he said, ask not what this country can do for you. Ask what you can do for the country. The best thing I think any of us can do for the country is to not hate our neighbors. Have you met my neighbors? Easier said than it did. Let's plug some gigs before your battery dies on you. Where are you going to be? I am at Broadway Comedy Club tonight. This Saturday I'm at Gotham at 11 o'clock at the Late Night Show and the Ring Down Stairs. And then my website and Twitter are the best places to go, Tamerkatan on Twitter and tamerkatan.com online anyway. Great. Come back. Thank you, sir. I will. Thanks so much for having me on. You're the best. You're the best. I'm such a big fan of yours. If you have any posters, I'd like one from my bedroom, please. But is it going to be right next to the Keith Garrett one? I want you to do your best Bert Reynolds. Okay. From Cosmopolitan. You got it, pal. Exactly. Exactly. All right, buddy. I'll see you soon. Thank you. Thanks, David. See you soon. Bye-bye. Bye. Please do all your Amazon shopping via the David Feldman Show website. We get a small percentage of everything you purchase. It does not cost you more money. Just go to davidfeldmanshow.com. You'll see some Amazon banners. Click on them. You'll be taken to Amazon. Shop away. That shopping session, we get a small percentage of everything you purchase and helps keep the lights on. And I promise you, every penny you spend goes towards keeping this show going. You're listening to the David Feldman radio program. You said pathetic hump. The link. We're recording. Now we're recording. I'm the same if we're recording or not recording. I was told by your producer, Alex, who tells me he's only 28. That, by the way, was the age I was elected mayor. But it was plugging that. Anyway, he tells me that you won an award, a writer's award, for something to do with that dog triumph. And that triumphant dog whom I happen to like. Partly because I like dogs and partly because I like cigars. So when you combine a cigar smoking dog, you're there. And he told me, he promised me, your producer, the condition of my appearing on this show was that he would send me the link and I have not received it. The link to what? To that show for which you won an award. Well, we don't need to talk about me right now. When we're done, we'll talk about my. Am I going to get a link? You'll get a link? You'll get a link, some sausages. We can proceed and talk. Go ahead. Thank you. How are you, David? It's great to hear your voice, sir. It really is. It can't be that great. Or you could have called me a year ago. You have a telephone. It's like an old girlfriend. Oh, I was longing to hear from you. Pick up a phone. It's true. Here's what I'm going to do to my listeners. Because I have a lot of. That's what you're going to do to your listeners. I'm going to talk to you for a little while. And then I'm going to tell them who you are. We're just going to talk. And then we're going to peel it back a little. And when they find out who you are. And what your story is, their jaws are going to drop. This has been happening lately. Their jaws or their drawers? This is an important distinction because I'm out of here. I'm hanging up in a minute of their drawers. I don't think it was that kind of a show, really. All right. This is very upsetting. I'm not going to give you the usual introduction because you haven't done the show in a while. By the way, I wonder why that is. The producer was looking down. They had a spare half hour. We're under the odds. Jeffrey Ross wasn't available, but it was very raw. I know how this works. By the way, the fact that somebody cannot be defined by a story or by what somebody did, that's not who I am. That's not the essence of the person. I know. You would know that. You're back in New York. You don't know that. I know that. You've become a Malibu. You know, we'll talk about you, but you're now this touch. I am a Malibu. The word? We have a word for it. Malibuite. I call you Malibujwazi. That's who you are. We have no idea what's happening outside our borders, nor do we want to. No interest. To me, I always am jealous of people who've never seen the Godfather because it's going to be brand new and they're fresh. It's a tabla rasa, as pretentious people say. And I am jealous of my listeners. We have new listeners, and I'm jealous of the new listeners who don't know who you are. And we're going to talk for a little while, and then- Do they know who you are? No, I don't even know who I am. We're going to talk for a little while, and then they're going to go, oh my God. Then they're going to drop their drawers and I'm out of here. Tell me about avocado season. I have the most beautiful avocado tree. It's maybe, I've been told, what do I know? I'm a Jew from Jersey, just like you. 17, 18 years old. And it takes a pause. It sleeps for about a year, and then for about a year and a half, it produces hundreds. There's a guy named Steven Goldstein who was the head of the Gay Alliance in New Jersey a few years ago. Now he heads the Anne Frank Institute in New York Foundation. And Steven was here, and he picked a couple of avocados. Hang on, hang on, hang on for one second. So he went from the closet to the attic. Well, you're talking about climbing the ladder to pick avocados as the attic? No, I'm saying. Oh, Anne Frank, Anne Frank attic. He was a Gay Alliance. Then he started working for Anne Frank. Look, you're doing exactly what I have to do with most of my jokes. You don't have to explain the joke. By the way, this whole show is about me explaining a joke because nobody gets my jokes. So this whole show is me. I can relate to that, David. He's up there and he picks an avocado and he turns around and says, this is the most rural thing I have ever done. Steven was played by Steven Carell in a movie, The Name of Which Escapes Me. The Big Short. About, no, different movie. Bruce O'Miley. Is he God? Steve Goldstein? You have to stop this now. There was a movie with Julianne Moore. She played a dying lesbian police officer in New Jersey and she was denied. Her partner was denied all the rights to inherit or to visit and Steven Carell played Steven Goldstein who was head of the gay alliance and who went wild and protested. The New York Times apparently, I didn't read it, but I was told, reviewed that Steven Carell's portrayal of Steven Goldstein was too over the top. And when you meet Steven Goldstein, you realize he underplayed it. Steven Goldstein is out there. Anyway, how did you meet Steven Goldstein? Which part? Through my, no, don't, no. Not that there's anything wrong with it. My dear friend Loretta Weinberg who is either president or majority leader of the New Jersey Senate who is an absolutely fabulous human being and has been the biggest thorn in Governor Christie's ample side. I have a question about that. Didn't she remove a thorn from Bill Christie's foot and they became friends? Because he's an elephant? I never, I never met Bill Christie. Bill Christie? Chris Christie, Chris Christie. Chris Christie never met him. I'm doing a joke about a mouse removing the thorn from the elephant's foot. It was a bad joke. I apologize. I'm going to show up. You know, there was a Saturday night live thing where I forgot his name, but for the hearing impaired, the news would be perfect. The news would be broadcast and then he would shout it louder. And that's like what you have to do with your jokes. They have to tell the joke, then you do an interpretive period. Okay. I apologize. I'm just so excited to hear your voice. I'm so excited. I have too much coffee. Go ahead. I'm so excited to hear your voice and it's been too long. So, Goldstein and he was portrayed by Steve Carell in a movie. And how did you meet Mr. Goldstein? As I just said, through the red of Weinberg, my dear friend, who is the majority leader of the New Jersey Senate, who is a fabulous liberal who really was responsible for the uncovering of Bridgegate and has been, she's been on 16 minutes of Face the Nation. She's been for gay rights and for some reasonable kind of gun control, something where you might at least have the opportunity to buy a gun with your, where you have your fingerprints analyzed so that only you can operate the gun might be a good idea, you know, if you have children in the house. So she's just been fabulous. But she's also a wonderful person with a great sense of humor. Would she come on this show? Would she come on the show? I can't imagine she wouldn't. And you'll have your producer, your people will talk to my people. We're the same people. I know. And Stephen Goldstein was head of the gay alliance. So she and Loretta became very close because Loretta very much believes in marriage equality, which she fought for her. And so she had him out to Malibu. She's actually originally from Beverly Hills, too much about Loretta. Loretta can talk about herself. Sweet Loretta, sweet Loretta moved from Beverly Hills to New Jersey. You moved from New Jersey to Malibu. They were about 50 years in between. Yeah. But Loretta's daughter and grandchildren live in Culver City, which your New York listeners have no idea what that means. It's where Sony is headquartered. I have no idea. You know so much more about California than I do. Pay attention, new listeners, because Bert Ross just mentioned New Jersey. And we're going to, we'll circle back to New Jersey because we'll tell the, his New Jersey story in a little while. And when we do, you're going to say, my God, the David Feldman show is the most fascinating, most surprising podcast in the history of the medium. Because when they hear you realize that after all the times I've been on your show, I still haven't a clue what a podcast is either to my listeners. And if they ever find out, they're going to listen to Mark Marin. I heard, I heard a rumor. Yeah. That you, you're one of your sponsors, this oval thing. And I want to tell you that is great because I love chocolate milk. I, I used to believe that chocolate milk came from, from brown cows. I mean, I was a little naive. Where, where are most of your listeners from? Do you have any idea? Is there a geographic, is there a geographic analysis? Uh, the bottom of their class that I know. That's wonderful. My God, you give the man a lob and he just knocks it over the neck. Now you're living in Malibu. You used to live in New Jersey. Let's brag about your daughter. Don't give her name. Don't do it. You have a, a magnificent daughter. Don't you? I shouldn't mention her name because I'm, if you're ashamed of somebody, if my daughter had been in prison, I wouldn't use her name. Okay. But she's a pediatrician saving children's lives. Again, what are you wanting when I talk? Okay. Did you say something? Go ahead. Did you say something about your daughter? I'm sorry. What does she do? What, what does she do? I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. I moved, I moved to California. Both of my children lived in LA. And now one of my son has moved back several years ago. My daughter's moving back to New York. I, I don't know whether that says anything about their feelings towards their parents. I don't know. I have to go to an hour, an analysis. Look up in the sky. Do you see a ton of bricks about to fall on you? No, I see. Actually was very rare in here in town is a very light rain. One day I said to a woman, boy, that was some rain. She said it didn't rain. I said, what do you mean it didn't rain? She said that was ocean mist. So how can you tell the difference between rain and ocean mist? And she said, when your intermittent wipers aren't enough, that's rain. So that's, that's what happens in Malibu. I'm sure everybody took notes on that. Yes. Ocean mist. That's a great name. Sounds like a, doesn't that sound like a cranberry juice or something? Yeah. Or it sounds like something, a female product. Does it? So it's how your daughter is a pediatrician. Yes, that's exactly. She actually has been working in the hospital with UCLA. So when a pediatrician works in a hospital, why are you asking the questions? I'm going to give you from here on in, Buster. Hey, you got the shovel and you're digging the grave. From here on in, I'm going to give you one word answers. See how you like that, big fella. We'll see who you are. So you're, all right, so your daughter's a pediatrician. Yes. Big whoop. Tony Soprano's eyes are welling up. That's what he wanted for Meadow, for her to, that's what every father wants for his daughter. That's for her pediatrician, right? Yes, right. You are a perfect human being. You, you really are. And my listeners who are going way back know that, but you really are a perfect human being. And what people who are just joining this nonsense need to know is that growing up, you and Ralph Nader were my heroes. Oh, God. And by the way, I just got off, I swear to God, I just got off the phone with Ralph Nader. By the way, I just got off the phone with Ralph Nader. Growing up, my father, who said to me, By the way, you then, if you're a correct number of the tribe, after you say your father, you say, may he rest in peace. Right. But he's still alive. So he's taking a nap. He's still alive. Well, we haven't, well, he's dead, but I haven't gotten around to burying him yet. No, he actually. Is your dad alive? No, no, he passed away. Actually, he passed away two decades ago this time of year. Yeah, that's what you had told me. I didn't know. So growing up, so growing up, my mother is alive. My mother is very much alive. And how old is she? Well, I'm not allowed to talk about her age, but she looks great. She really does. I've told that when you want a vacation, you go and be with her. I spend a lot of time with my mother. Yes, I do. And you call that vacation? Let's move on. You know, yes, I do. If you're going to you on, when you ask me about my daughter, and I answer, you get the gloves on, buddy. I can handle it. You have a daughter who's a pediatrician. Yes. I mean, that's, you're done. You're done. Just, you know, let's, let's, you go to a party and you go, I got a daughter. She's a pediatrician. Game set match. What else is there to discuss? Apparently not much. I bet that you don't get blowback from Ralph like this. I would never talk to Ralph the way I talk to you, but let me, let me just introduce him with more respect. If it makes you feel uncomfortable. Yes, I do. Because growing up. By the way, it's only that you answer that yes, because it makes me uncomfortable. If it made me comfortable, you would probably come up with a different answer. I would never talk to Ralph Nader and show him the disrespect that I go out of my way to show Bert Ross. Because Ralph Nader doesn't have a sense of humor. He's humorless. It's, it's the closest thing to eating Wonder Bread. Like he would ever eat Wonder Bread. Are you kidding? No, probably not. Growing up, there were two moments that I remember vividly. And this is the God's honest truth. And I'm going to say one nice thing about Bert Ross. And I'm going to get back to disrespecting him. Because by the way, it drives my mother crazy that I don't show you respect. And your mother is a great woman and she probably doesn't listen to your podcast. No, she does. Well then, the Mrs. Feldman, I love you. You are so perceptive and you should absolutely tell David to show some more. Not more respect, but a modicum of respect wouldn't be fair. Look, I'm still doing things. I don't rest on the laurels of coming up with seatbelts. The fact that he saved 30 million lives, that's old news. What has he done for us lately? Oh, you know, Occupational Safety and Hazard Administration, the Clean Water Act, the EPA, Bert Ross, the EPA. It's clean water. Clean water is overrated. You know, when I go to a restaurant, they say, would you like followed what I said? I'd like some dirty water. Fresh from the wherever. Okay. Growing up, two vivid memories. One is, I'm eating ice cream in my parents' bedroom. We're watching Channel 5 News. Ralph Nader is- Excuse me. They allowed you to eat ice cream in the bedroom? Yeah. Mrs. Feldman. I'm sorry. At least I hope it wasn't with me. Let's go on. Let's go on. Shellfish flavored ice cream from Ben and Jerry's. So I'm watching the news and Ralph Nader is testifying. And I go, who's this guy? And my father, greatest generation, loses it. Who's this guy? And he stands in front of the television. He goes, that's your hero. And I said, what are you talking about? I don't know who this guy- He says, if you call Ralph Nader this guy, I'm going to take that ice cream away from you. That is your hero. Find out who he is. And he bought me Unsafe At Any Speed. I was like nine years old. And I had to read Unsafe At Any Speed. And my father commanded that Ralph Nader be my hero. At the same time, like a couple of years later, I'm not going to tell the audience why. But the Bergen record used to come. The newspaper every morning. And Burt Ross. Burt Ross. And my father would say now, that's a Jew. This is, if you had half the integrity of Burt Ross. Wait a minute. One guy's a hero and one guy's a Jew. That's it? The whole God's from a killer. He could go to Shul and say, you're the bunch of Jews. What kind of what is this? This is very upsetting. Go ahead. And not only that, but sexy. The women in my house. The women. Don't tell. Can I say the name of your lovely wife? Joan. Joan. My sister. My sister. Your sister and your mother. Okay. And their friends. And there were pictures of Burt Ross and the newspaper on the cover of New York magazine. David, I have one question. Yes. Did any, did these women, when they saw Ralph Nader, when you were reading ice cream, did your mother or your sister or their friend say what, what a sexy guy? Answer the question, please. You were the, the Eddie Fisher of my generation. Every Jewish girl wanted Burt Ross. I'm telling you that. And no gentiles wanted me. I'm telling you Burt Ross, that's just in my house, but you were treated, when your name was mentioned, the angel sang, I could hear the harps. So we'll get to you in a little. I have to interrupt because there's a short story, which really I loved. When I was in college, I looked a lot like Omar Sharif, except for the space missing between the two teeth. And this was after Dr. Javago came out. And so I wore the Russian hat and the Russian coat. And women would come up to me and I was having a very nice time. Now we move forward 40 something years. I go to a Yankee game in Camden yards. I decided Yankee stadium was too much tumult. And I thought I was very creative and unique. And as I'm going down to New Jersey, turnpike to Baltimore and I stopped at a gas station. Everybody there is wearing the Yankee hat anyway. I go to Camden yards and I'm with my wife. And behind me is a woman probably in her late 40s. And she gets all excited. I figure, you know, Omar Sharif. And she said, oh my God, you look like you look like. And she thinks in this is Abe Vagoda. Now, my mind, my computer is going full speed because I know it can't be who she said it is. I said, you don't mean the guy who played fish. She said, yeah. So my mind stood up. The guy in the Godfather, yeah. I don't get it. And I don't see Abe Vagoda. Abe Vagoda. Don't see it. Didn't, in deference to Abe who departed in his mid 90s a year ago, even his mother didn't like the way he looked. He wouldn't even look in the mirror. I couldn't believe it. I said to the woman, you're very lucky. They have gun control in Baltimore. I would have just shot you and sat down. And it was like, so you realize what happens in 40 years from Omar Sharif to Abe Vagoda does not get worse. No, it doesn't. No, that's a great, I love that. So women are apparently no longer other than my wife, thank God, coming on. Tell me about your humor column. You write a weekly humor column for the Malibu Times. It's a strange thing. I write, when I first came to Malibu, I went to their couple of papers here and I said, I would like to write a kind of a humor column pretty much based on an Easterner's view of the new country. Like to fill the fish out of water. Exactly. And one of the publishers said, wait a minute, you've been here eight days and you want to do this? I said, no, no, no. You don't understand it. It's not a historical perspective like Alexis Tocqueville coming to America from France. This is more a comedy, a humor column. So finally after two years, I wrote for what's called the Malibu Patch and then I started to write for the Malibu Times, which is the major newspaper here. And I was supposed to write every other week. And I've now submitted eight or nine columns in a row and I don't think they figured out, as they do it every week, that it has switched to a weekly column. But they've allowed me to write almost anything I want to. There's been almost no censorship. It's been a wonderful experience because like you, it's almost like we have glasses that we wear and we see things through this humor filter. So all day long, I'm writing things down because I just see the humor in things, which I guess helps me get through life. But I really enjoy it. It's cathartic. Is it online? Yes, if you were to go to, it starts as a blog on Monday afternoons, they post the new ones and then Thursday the paper comes out and then it's in the paper. So it's a blog and online and then it's a column in the paper. It's the same thing. If you go online to the Malibu Times and you search Bert Ross, you'll see all the columns or you'll go to, when you go to the Malibu Times online under opinion, you click opinion and then below it is blogs and then you'll see all my blogs. So the first time you and I ever talked, you don't remember this. Yes, I do. I very much do. You're wrong, but go ahead. The first time we talked was at Dwight Morrow High School. 10 years ago and you were wrong, but go ahead. You're saying we talked before that. Yeah, but go ahead, tell what happened. And you performed. There were a bunch of people performed and I thought you were terrific and I had no idea. I mean, here are here are guys from the class performing and you did, I would say something like 10 minutes of original material and it seemed to me to be a very professional level. I had no idea who you were or what your background was. And I was like, hang on for one second. Hang on for one second. One of the Isley brothers, this was a benefit for Dwight Morrow High School. He was very good too. One of the Isley brothers was there and played, right? The Star Spangled Banner, in a way you could only play if you're on drugs. It was terrific. Because Jimi Hendrix used to play with the Isley brothers. I didn't know that. Yeah. So in honor of Jimi Hendrix, one of the, I can't remember the name of, I don't want to do a disservice to him, but he played and then he did very well. But there was also a comic. There was also a guy who was an absolute, I don't know, there was a guy who started off for one of the first performers who did some comedy and it was, it was horrific. It was beyond amateurish. But then we had, but then we had Richard Lewis and Rick Overton. No, no, no, Richard Lewis wasn't there. Richard Lewis said hello from that on a tape from a remote location probably here in LA. Okay. As you recall, Richard Lewis's father, Bill Lewis, may he rest in peace, owned Ambassador Caterers and you could not be Jewish and get Bar Mitzvah if Bill didn't do your Bar Mitzvah. Then you were a Christian. And Jeff Ross's parents owned the number one catering house in Newark, New Jersey. I did not know that. They catered the riots in 16. Jeff has been doing very well. Yes, he has. I wish I was talking to him right now instead of you. Nice, but I don't play, as a matter of fact, I would rather be talking to Jeff now than you. Jeff did something, I think it was Jeff, so correct me if I'm wrong. He did some material where he went into a penitentiary. Yes, unfortunately he got out. They let him out, unfortunately. Well, I taught when I was at college in a couple of different prisons. And all I can tell you is that is gut's ball. That is something, you know, you're a comedian and you know a tough audience. And what he did was not only go in there and do his regular shtick, he did like a Don Rickles kind of material with that audience. And that is, and he pulled it off. Yeah, I helped him, I helped him with it. Well, I tell you, whatever was done, that is, that's courageous. You're a comedian, I have to ask you a question. Hey, let me talk about prisons for a second. Hold that, put a pin in that. There's a great comedian named Rick Reynolds who tells a legendary story about me and him and a guy named Jose Simone playing Santorita Prison. I think it's called a level five. I mean, just like the maximum security prison for Christmas. I can't do it justice, but if you Google it, just Google Rick Reynolds' prison story. To be a favor, when this show is over, have Alex send me, Alex is your 28-year-old producer, the link for that and the link for the dog with the cigar. This is what I remember. I saw it performed. I had an anxiety attack. Did you take them on like Jeff did? No, Rick Reynolds did. But I'll tell you what happened to me. Yeah, I went up and I start, I go, good evening, ladies in, oh, I do that first. Oh, God, oh, God. And I did it by accident. I just went, good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Oh, so I think there are, I think that other than the correspondents dinner, where practically every single comic is bombed, I think going into a prison and doing Don Rickles' kind of material has got to be one of the most challenging jobs for a comedian. Yeah, well, hopefully the next one has course marks. I read Steve Martin's autobiography. And these are in the early days and he's up in San Francisco. And they give him a Monday night, which is absolutely, you know, the worst night. And he comes out and they're, they tell him, it's big night that we have, the place is full, standing room only. He doesn't understand it. He comes out and they're all Japanese tourists. And they don't speak English. And I would have, if I had been a comedian, I would have passed out. They would have had ENP people doing, you know, helping me breathe. And he starts juggling and doing all the other things he can do and pulled it off. And that to me is whenever I aspire to being a comedian and I look at somebody who can do that, I realize I could, I should stay home. Well, the advantage that I have over Steve Martin is my act is received exactly the same way between Japanese businessmen and people who speak English. I get the same reaction. It's universal. I can go anywhere and get the same response. I remember speaking to you one time from Reno, I forget the audience that you just had, but boy, you were, you were breathing heavily. Did you come see me in Reno? No, I wish, I wish you had once in your life told me where you're performing. I, you know, remotely near where I live because I'd love to come and hear you. I mean, it's an invasion of my privacy. So people who are listening, people who are listening to this show, if there's still any left, he really is a good comedian. And if you can get a chance to, to watch him do stand up, it's worth it. By the way, that's a plug. I'm plugging that in oval thing. Thank you. He's like, I like you, but I oval thing is it milk. You've got to be the drink milk without oval thing is Do they even make oval teen anymore? I thought it was your sponsor. I don't have sponsors. Did Alex lie to me? Wait a second. I think we may we're debating whether we've been asked to have a sponsor, but we're debating. Yeah, it alienates my listeners. Somebody wants to run a commercial. And every time I run a commercial, my listeners get pissed off. So I can why am I promoting oval thing here? Did he lie to you and say we have a we're sponsored by oval thing? I asked him, are you making money with this podcast? He said, yes. I said, how do you do that? He says, we have sponsors. Okay. Okay, what? We don't have sponsors. So how do you make money? We very interesting that you would bring that up. Bert Ross. Yes. I mean, we are in a capitalistic society. We ask people to become monthly subscribers. Ah. And for $5 a month or more, if they want to give more, they can gain access to our premium content. And then they can do all their Amazon shopping by going to David Feldman show website. The David Feldman show website. There's an Amazon banner and you click on that and you go to Amazon. And then if you shop and buy something, I get a small percentage of everything you purchase. So if I'll promote Amazon, the stock went to 1000. It's a great company. And Jeff owns, not Jeff Ross, owns the Washington Post. Jeff Bezos. Strange name. What kind of name is that? Cuban. No. Yeah. Get out of here. He's a Cuban, yeah. Born there? No. No, but his father, stepfather was Cuban. He could buy Cuban. He could buy. No, they don't forget the embargo. He could just buy Cuban. It would be a part of Amazon. The Washington Post is, since he took it over, he has turned it into a premier newspaper, one of the all-time great new, right? Yes. Absolutely. The other great thing is because of Amazon, because of Jeff Bezos, remember what it was like to walk around small town America? He'd be, oh, there's a bookstore. Oh, there's a used record store. Because of Jeff, there is no retail stores anymore. Thank God. Brick and mortar is out. Malls will be all movies and restaurants. The Garden State Plaza in New Jersey will end up with 340 restaurants. Who needs bookstores? Thank you for getting here. Who needs, who needs kitchens? Do you realize that my kids haven't cooked a meal in three years? I don't even know why. They need a refrigerator in order to keep things fresh, because they may not eat the entire meal. But everything is either they go out to eat or they order in. Now, the first time I spoke to you was not at Dwight Morrow High School. When you were terrific and I went up to you, okay, who cares? When was the first time? Okay, so you walked up to me at Dwight Morrow. And I said, I really, this was at the Dwight Morrow reunion. I said, you were fabulous and you saw my name tag, which had my name on it and you got all excited and called over your sister and went into my history. When was the first time we talked? I was a cub reporter for the Hudson Dispatch. While I was going to college, I spent two summers working as a police reporter at the Hudson Dispatch in New Jersey, Jersey City. I remember the Hudson Dispatch. They covered me. Yes, and you were the energy czar of New Jersey. Governor Byrne of New Jersey, a Democrat, appointed Burt Ross to be the energy czar of New Jersey. And I- You remember him? Okay, yes, go ahead. And I called to interview you to talk about New Jersey's energy policy. And I think- Did we have one? Well, I think because of you, New Jersey is the only state in the union where they don't have self-service gasoline stations. No, that has nothing to do with me. Really? When I was appointed by the governor to be the energy czar of New Jersey, the record wrote a kind of an interesting editorial, which it said that I was very charismatic and would probably be a very good leader. But I didn't know anything about energy. I probably didn't even know what an home was. So I wrote a letter to the editor. I said, Dear editor, I thank you so much for your supportive editorial. As far as my not knowing what an home is, you are 100% correct. And so I looked it up in Webster's dictionary. It defines an home as a measure of electrical resistance. I must confess, I still don't have a clue what an home is. Having graduated college in the 1960s, I always thought an home was something you hummed while meditating. I got a call from the governor laughing. My major accomplishment in that two-year stint was a right turn on red light. And well, that actually was a fairly significant accomplishment. And wait a second, seriously, seriously, is that true? Yes. And why is that good? Why is that good for our energy policy? Well, first of all, you're not stopping unnecessarily while you burn up gas. And it's also environmentally positive because for the same reason. And from the other standpoint, of course, why would you wait when you can make a right turn? You can save a time on your trip. So it's good on every level. So every time people make a right turn, they should think of Bert Ross every time you make a right turn at a red light. If you make a left turn, I don't give a rat's ass, whether you think of me or not. And now as I make a right turn, yeah. And do you get a cut? Do you get a royalty every time? Yes, I get a royalty, yes. So what was funny is I go to the governor with the idea. Really? And he says, well, there were other states that were doing it. And so I said, governor, this is really a terrific idea. And he said, you know, I don't think the attorney general, Bill Highland likes it. So I go to Bill Highland. I said, general Highland, what you're viewing is fine by me. I go back to the governor. The governor says, I don't think Bill Highland likes it. I said, wait a minute. I spoke to him. He likes it. He says, OK, I had a push for something which is the dream of everybody in politics. It is almost impossible to pass legislation or to propose legislation that 99.9% of the population wants. It is just absolutely a gift to a politician and almost nobody opposes. So finally it passed, I think, unanimously, but it was a bit of a fight to get them to realize that this is a win-win-win win. Nobody, the idle lobby, isn't there a lobby for people who like to idle? Apparently not. That was exactly it. Well, we should call it a BERT. We're in New Jersey. You can pull a BERT if you want to. It's legal. I'm from now on because actually my mother lives in New Jersey. I live in New York. Did she still live in Teaneck? She doesn't live in Teaneck, but I don't want to tell what city, but... You are so famous that people will start to... Paparazzi will be appearing at Mrs. Feldman's door. It would be the Mamarazzi. Mrs. Feldman, this is what he's protecting you. Hang on, I just made a joke. He's protecting you, Mrs. Feldman. What a son. I made a joke and you missed it. I made a great joke. It would be the mama's lobby. The Mamarazzi. It wouldn't be the Paparazzi. It would be the Mamarazzi. I didn't hear it. The lobby. Mama, that is funny. I feel embarrassed when you have a good one to walk over. This is a chander on me. The Mamarazzi. Wait a minute. I don't know about you, but there's a busy life here in Malibu. Haven't we talked for three hours yet? It just feels like that. Before we tell... Don't your listeners have to do something else? You know what? I'm not going to tell your story, but hang on for one second. Hang on for one second. Before you go, I talked to you about the energy crisis back then. I talked to you. I interviewed you about the Paley report. And everybody was saying what a genius Bill Paley was because he issued a report about oil reserves in the 50s and warned us that we were going to run out of oil in the 70s. Do you remember this? No. Everybody celebrated Bill Paley, who was the founder... Not really, but he owned CBS. He didn't really found CBS. That wasn't Bill Paley. That was another name. No, it was Bill Paley. Bill Paley. Bill Paley. Bill Paley. William Paley. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I interviewed you about this, Bert. I... wait a minute. I don't... Bill Paley. It just sounds... Do you remember the... Do you remember the Paley report? The A.I.L.E.Y. Do you remember the Paley report? Bill Paley. You are right. You are right. Of course. Son of a... Of course I'm right. And I talked to the energy czar of New Jersey. A guy named Bert Ross, who spoke to me about the Paley report. And he said that Bill Paley, the chairman of the board of CBS, was asked by Eisenhower to do a study of our oil reserves. You know, at times like this, I'm not happy I made it to 74. You're the same age as the energy crisis. It was 1974. And Bill Paley issued this report that the world's oil reserves will be barren by 1974. And everybody said... This... this... this program is getting barren. I mean, what are you... Are you serious? And... We're talking about the Bill Paley report about the oil going to be barred in 1970. Who are you... What is the age of your listeners? Death. They're deaf. Deaf and in the bottom of their... I get it. All right, so... Even your mother's hanging up at this point. She's saying, oh my god, I can't believe that my son does this for a living. So, you were raving about the Paley report and how we have to... You're back to that? Yes, because you were the energy czar of New Jersey. And I want you... I have had... I have had an amazing life. And you are picking a part of it that I don't even remember or care to remember. Well, I think you need to issue a retraction because the Paley report was wrong. Would you please do it in my name? There is plenty of oil. I have... there are avocados to pick. What's wrong with you? What? But you owe me an apology because it turns out... I apologize. Bill Paley... I don't even know what you're talking about. I apologize if it can move this interview forward. Bill Paley... Hey, Vang. Hey, let me... let's just... then we'll move on and I'll say goodbye. But Bill Paley was wrong. He canceled the Smothers Brothers and put on the Beverly Hill Billies, which wasn't so bad. And he's... This interview is now turning onto a rant to Bill Paley. We're back in the 1960s. The Smothers Brothers... can you explain to... is your audience all 90? I have been... How old is this? I've been... Do you realize that people 45 years old have no idea of anything we're talking about? No, because... They don't know Bill Paley. They don't know... they don't know Dr. King for Christ's sake. You met Dr. King, right? I have a picture of me and him where I'm a little taller than he is. I would say better-looking, but he looks better than a Bogota. You know that... You know that I have a theory about people who call Martin Luther King, Dr. King, that they're secretly racist. They go... it's... it's... it's... What are you supposed to call them? Martin? Marty? I've had people who go, oh, Dr. King, then it's Dr. Cosby, Dr. Mandela, Dr. Jackie Robinson, Dr. Harriet Tubman... No, no, no. I... by the way, I met Jackie twice. Kennedy? Jackie Robinson. Jackie Robinson was married to JFK? No, no, no. Your headcruiser's father assassinated JFK. No. What a guy. Jeff... no, Jeff Bezos. We have things to talk about. The next time... Jeff Bezos... I've had enough of this interview. I think the next time we need to talk about our president and his most recent tweet of this morning which is, the state of our union was... Dot, dot, dot... Kafe. C-O-V-F-E-F-E. I couldn't have said it better. The state of our union was... Kafe. This is our president. Can't... can't beat that. I hope your listeners think about that and we can all come up with a... I think you should have a little like segment where people email you or tweet you or whatever to help people do today and they come up with the definition of what they think he meant. What could Kafefe mean? The state... No, this morning it's in the papers. He wrote at 3.30 in the morning or something. I don't know. Some... he doesn't sleep. The state of our union was... Dot, dot, dot... C-O-V-F-E-F-E. Kafe. I'm not making this up. My wife told it to me this morning. I see this now. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So ask your readers. It's a great... it's a great opportunity to participate and have them email or tweet or whatever what they think that could possibly mean. Before you go. I want to go, but yes. I know you want to go, but we're not done yet. Have things to do. Miles to go before I sleep. Robert Frost, thank you. Port, did you know Robert Frost too? I cannot believe. I'm a freshman at Harvard and there's an English, basic English class I'm taking. And the only time I cut class, I think in four years, was the English class, big lecture hall. I come the next day, they said, how did you like Robert Frost? I thought he was talking about it. He was a special guest, a surprise guest. Really? Yeah. That's my story of my life. David, it's been nice talking to you. Nice talking to you. You'll come back and then we'll tell your boring story of why you're my hero. Well, we can talk about what the president meant by the state of the Union was, Kofefi, because I agree. Third Ross. We'll talk to you soon. Be well, David. Thank you. Stay on the line for one second. It's Friday. So you know what that means? Time once again for Tuesdays with Corey. Tuesdays with Corey. Corey Bret Schneider is a constitutional law professor at Brown. He has a law degree from Stanford, a PhD in political science from Princeton, a master's in philosophy from Cambridge. His book is called When the State Speaks. He's been published in The New York Times and countless law journals. He co-wrote the amicus brief that was referred to by the Fourth Circuit Court last week when it struck down Trump's travel ban. But I think if you ask Corey what he's most proud of, it's that I, David Feldman, gave him my private phone number. The brass ring of academia, David Feldman's landline. Welcome back to the show. And please, you don't need to thank me, Corey. I don't think I have the private landline. I think I have Skype. Well, I'm waving that in front of you. I see. That's the incentive. That's the incentive. Ten shows. After ten shows, you get the landline. You get the prefix. You get the first three numbers. But the suffix you got to earn. Now, don't be intimidated by me, Professor. I'm just like everyone else. I put my sweater on one head at a time. Great. Is that funny? I'm happy to be here and I'm not feeling intimidated yet. Is that funny? I put my sweater on one head at a time. Good. I haven't heard that. Yeah, I think. Sometimes I come up with something. I got a Mr. Rogers image, too. You know, it's part again. The head part. This is strange, Jim. All right. This is what we're going to talk about today. We are going to talk about federal funding for sanctuary cities. We're going to talk about Kathy Griffin getting fired by CNN. And whether or not freedom of speech, the First Amendment protects her right to say things and not get fired by her corporate paymasters. We're going to talk about Jeremy Joseph Christian who was accused of stabbing to death two men on a train, how he screamed freedom of speech, freedom of speech during his arraignment. We're going to talk about the mayor of Portland wanting to cancel a march against Sharia. We're going to talk about maybe briefly Sharia law. We're going to talk about Attorney General Jeff Sessions releasing his new budget and how it reveals that he's not interested in prosecuting the legal use of force by police. Then we're going to talk about Charlie Chaplin and the travel ban and how it relates to Charlie Chaplin. So, Professor, the executive order Donald Trump signed, promising to deny federal funding to sanctuary cities. What is a sanctuary city? Can the president deny federal funding? Or is that the role of Congress? And where are we with that executive order? Thanks for the question. To begin with, your first question. Sanctuary cities, David, aren't a technical term and cities don't often use that label to describe themselves. But there are some cities around the country and some localities that have declared that they are not going to cooperate with the federal government in all its demands when it comes to the president's goal of deporting undocumented people who are in the United States. So, for instance, some localities have said that they won't hold those who were detained, say, on a traffic ticket in order to give ICE enough time to come and deport them. Now, the president, through this executive order with the support of his attorney general, have declared that if you are not going to cooperate with the federal government in their pretty broad plans to deport, to conduct a mass deportation as they put it, then the penalty will be revocation and they are blunt about this, of a city's entire federal expenditure, the federal funds that go to a city. Now, two localities in California, I believe it's San Francisco and Santa Clara, have brought a lawsuit in the northern district of San Francisco and federal court saying that this is a violation of the 10th Amendment. The 10th Amendment says those powers not granted to the federal government are reserved to the states. And the claim in the lawsuit is that although you can threaten, sorry, you can revoke specific grants that are tailored to a particular purpose, this blunt force of basically denying the entirety of federal funds to a locality is a violation of the 10th Amendment. That's the kind of argument that was pioneered by conservatives in the so-called Rehnquist Revolution or the New Federalist Court of Justice Rehnquist, but it's now being used by progressives, including in California, to fight back against Donald Trump's threat. Is this a separation of powers issue as well because it seems to me the Congress controls the purse strings. Don't they determine where the money goes? I think the lawsuit from what I've seen doesn't focus on separation of powers. I mean, the basic idea is that there have been funds for a variety of purposes that are allocated to the executive branch, which then distributes them. So the way that Trump can get around congressional action in defense of his policy is to use an executive order about his discretionary funds, I guess, in a variety of areas. So that's at least the government's claim and the focus of the suit is not separation of powers but the right of the states to resist coercion from the federal government in certain areas. I remember reading about John Ehrlichman before he had a resign from the Nixon administration. He was the domestic advisor and one of the things I think it was he, he invented this thing called impounding funds because they couldn't control Congress's spending so that the executive branch would just impound the spending. He refused to spend basically, right? Refusing to spend. And I believe that was deemed unconstitutional. What about ICE? ICE is part of the immigration department, I believe, and they're running around cities, especially Los Angeles, terrorizing children. They follow school kids home. Yeah, I've seen that story. What in the Constitution prevents a national police force? How big could the FBI, how big could the Secret Service get under a Trump administration? And are there constitutional protections? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. There is unfortunately the possibility that he could just build ICE and build the FBI into as large an organization as he wants. And that would give him the ability to potentially conduct even more of these removals. But I think the reality is that local police are closer to the ground. The federal government has to have some basis for detaining people. So you can't just go up to somebody on the street and ask for their papers without some kind of cause. So the localities do things like traffic stops. That's certainly within their portfolio. And that's why cooperation with the localities is so important to the Trump administration in carrying out these deportations. So really these, in my opinion, local heroes who are standing up to the Attorney General and to the President and saying, we're not going to cooperate are really throwing a wrench into the plans of how to actually carry out these deportations because they're on the ground in a way that ICE is not. But I think the truth is, to be blunt in answering your question, there could be a way, he can enforce federal immigration law. There are constitutional limits on how you go about that, certainly due process limits. But the more he expands ICE, the more he can do. But this is an important way to stop him and I think really throws a wrench into those plans, as I said. And it also partly is a way of slowing down these deportations, but it's also sending a message that says, we're not going to stand for this. We also have a constitutional role. It's within the right, certainly, of ICE to deport people who are in the country illegally. But there are a lot of constitutional issues about how the process is conducted. I mean, you have a due process right to not just be suspected of a crime if you've done nothing. And federal immigration can't just come up to you on the street and demand your papers. Define due process. The Fifth Amendment and the Fourth Amendment give various due process rights. The Fourth Amendment gives a right against search and seizure, for instance. And so what those rights entitle us to is to not just be locked up without a reason. The government needs a reason for doing so. And even for a search, there has to be a reasonable suspicion that you've done something wrong. You can't just be approached on the street. And what you certainly can't do, and the recent cases about stopping for us made this clear, is racially profile people in order to determine whether or not you're going to stop them. That's a separate clause, but also that protects us against racial profiling, basically. And I think there's a danger that ICE is doing all those things. Right. That was the Arizona ruling, where they said you can't stop somebody because you think they might be an undocumented Mexican. But as I remember, it was nebulous. You can, in the course of an arrest, you can check to see if the person is in this country. Right. Legally. Right. Well, but here's a question that's raised by this lawsuit. I mean, it brings huge issues. Say that a local police force decides that the federal government is being so aggressive and really using race or using national origin in a way it shouldn't deporting people who have been in the country for 30 years without reason, failing to recognize the importance of keeping families together. If a locality, and I think this is what's happening in this lawsuit, decides, you know what, the federal government's policy is so troubling constitutionally that we're just not going to aid them. So we're not going to tell them, or we're not going to hold people in order to cooperate. That's the kind of thing that's raised by this suit. I think this, this case in particular is about holding people into tension in order to keep them for ice. But I think I would like to see there's no reason why a locality has to share information with the federal government about an arrest, especially in the absence of the conviction. There's no law on the books that forces a local municipality to cooperate with the FBI or ICE. Put it this way, I think that constitutionally, and these are the issues that are now being litigated, so they're complicated, and I don't want to claim it's an easy case. But in my opinion, if a locality decided that they did not want to share information about immigration status with ICE, that is their constitutional right to do so under the 10th Amendment. What about a consent decree? I know that the Los Angeles Police Department was operating under a consent decree because the cops couldn't stop beating up African-Americans. Hmm, that's interesting. What is a consent decree? It was, I believe, issued by the Justice Department. Right. What is a consent decree? And doesn't that violate the 10th Amendment? That's a great question. One of the most... And then let's move on. As long as it was a great one. Yeah. No. No. That's all I wanted to hear. They're going, you go deep in the weeds, which I love and ask questions that are challenging, but this one is particularly good not to take away too much. But I often do say that when I am just pausing to think about that. Like when your wife says, do you love me? That's a great question. That's a great question. Really? Okay. We were going to focus. Let's say focus. Okay. So a consent... It is a great question for real. And here's why. You know, one of the huge objections to what I'm saying, and I think a lot of your listeners and I think you in an earlier conversation raised this is, you know, why is this progressive, self-described progressive constitutional scholar saying that we should look at the 10th Amendment, which is after all the way that civil rights laws were resisted under the banner of states' rights in the 1960s? And your question really gets to the heart of that. The 14th Amendment says that no person in any locality can be denied equal protection of the laws. And what that means is that there are just certain rights that even though the 10th Amendment grants lots of powers to the states, that no state, no locality can deny. I mean, the phrase of the 14th Amendment is no state. So I do think that, yes, there are lots of 10th Amendment rights to resist policies of the federal government. But here's what they really cannot do. They cannot resist civil rights enforcement and they cannot engage in discrimination because that itself would be a constitutional violation. Right. So the basic idea is, yes, defer to the states. They have lots of power and they can resist the federal government. They can't be commandeered except when it comes to rights themselves guaranteed to every individual in the Constitution. And that is the obligation of the federal government to do that. And I don't know if this Attorney General will carry out that obligation, but he is obligated to protect the civil rights of every person in this country regardless of what locality they live in. On previous shows, we've talked about how important the 14th Amendment is, that it should be called something else. What is the 14th Amendment and why should everybody take the time to read it? It's one of the three amendments, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments that were passed after the Civil War to guarantee all people, including formerly enslaved persons, the guarantee of equal protection of the law and the full rights of the Constitution, including, as I said before, due process. So the 13th abolished slavery, the 14th guarantees equal protection and due process, and the 15th guaranteed, tempted to guarantee equal voting rights. There are two executive orders going through the courts. One is the travel ban, which you've been very active with and we'll get to that in a second. And the other one is sanctuary cities. Sanctuary cities is more than just a municipality's right to stand up to the federal government. It's really about who can be thrown out of America. The travel ban is who can visit, who can get in here, and the sanctuary city executive order is who can be thrown out of this country. Do tourists and undocumented workers have the same rights as American citizens? Does a tourist or an undocumented worker who may be in this country quote unquote illegally, are they entitled to the same due process as I am, and I'm going to assume you're a citizen? I am, yeah. Okay. Please tell me that's a great question. They are you a citizen? I was a little taken back by it. It's like the kind of thing that in Trump's America, I hope that they don't start, the government doesn't start feeling entitled to ask everyone. The answer to that is that you have lots of rights, even if you're not a citizen. You obviously don't have all of them. So for instance, you don't have the right to vote by definition if you're not a citizen. But it's a mistake that I've heard repeated by Tea Party types a lot and others to suggest that the Constitution only protects citizens. The 14th Amendment, for instance, talks about persons, not citizens. And so due processes, I think clearly guaranteed to persons, not citizens. And in a case, for instance, about the right of undocumented people in the United States, non-citizens, to send their kids to public schools, the Supreme Court made it clear that that was a basic right. And in general, there are lots of constitutional protections, including Fourth Amendment and due process rights. What is the Fourth Amendment again? Either right against illegal searches and seizures. Now what there's not a right to is the right to remain in the country if you're here without proper documentation. And I think that that's a policy matter that should be resolved, that we need to really do immigration reform. But yes, ultimately ICE does have the legal right to remove people from the country. But along the way, I guess is what I'm saying. There are lots of rights, even of certainly non-citizens and even of undocumented people. Is it fair to say that the due process extended to undocumented workers is different than say the due process for American citizens? Correct. Yes, that's right. It's not the same level of protection. So for instance, if you're a citizen, you have a right to never have your citizenship revoked. That's an absolute right under our Constitution. You can't have it revoked as punishment. You can give it up and voluntarily renounce it, but you can't have it taken from you. Now obviously, if you're a non-citizen, you don't have that right. The same is true of forced deportation. You can't be deported if you're an American citizen, but you can be if you're an undocumented person in the country. If you're undocumented and you're rounded up by ICE and you're separated from your children, you're taken to a different type of court. You have a lawyer if you want one, but you're like 100 miles away, you're being held in usually a private prison and you don't have access to a lawyer usually, or a public defender, or a public defender. Well, a lot of the process is regarded as an administrative procedure under our immigration law. And so that's right. There are, as a matter of fact, just fewer protections. Now I guess sometimes we're talking about what's actually happening and sometimes we're talking about aspirations. I think that the process that we use to remove people from this country lacks a lot of the constitutional and legal protections that it should have. So it shouldn't be a solely administrative procedure. And I think that there are a lot of cases that need to be brought about, as in the travel ban case, it's what's related, equal protection concerns. So if it turns out that ICE is targeting Mexicans, but not lots of other people who are in the country illegally, then that's a constitutional concern. If they're approaching people on the street and without any reasonable suspicion rounding them up, that's a due process concern. And so the ACLU and other organizations like it, I think are doing lots to stop ICE from violating the Constitution. If you're an undocumented worker and somebody pounds on your door, you have a right to say show me your warrant. You know, I have to look into that. According to the ACLU, I did look this up. That sounds right to me. Yeah. They have to show you, I believe they have to show you a warrant. I know they have to show you your ID. If you're an undocumented worker and you're injured on the job, do you have access to our courts? Can you sue the slaughterhouse where you work because they're violating labor rules or endangering you? You slip and fall and crack your neck. Can you, as an undocumented worker, sue Hormel? Yes. I mean, there's no requirement in our federal courts that you be a United States citizen in order to bring a lawsuit. So for instance, if you have a contract claim that was executed in the United States, even if you're not a citizen, you certainly have the right to do so. And a lot of labor claims are like that as well. So even people who have been removed, yes, I think to bring lawsuits. If you're a victim of wage, theft, you... I mean, one thing to say about all this is part of the problem is that, so yes, you have a right to bring these suits. But people are often afraid to do so because they lack the basic status of being here. And so the lack of security, I think, probably prevents a lot of these lawsuits that should be brought by people who are undocumented. So people like Wilbur Ross, the Commerce Secretary, they're very slippery when it comes to undocumented workers and what they call illegal immigration because they really do want undocumented workers working for them because they're so compliant. They're so frightened. Yeah, I mean, that's the problem with our immigration policy is that we continue to want cheap labor to do jobs that lots of people don't want to do, including picking and farm work. And yet we refuse to extend the rights that should come with the hard labor that these people are putting in. And so that's... I don't know that that's something that could be corrected by courts. It really is the Congress that would need to do something. And unfortunately, there was a time when that was a bipartisan commitment. And I just think that's disappeared with the rise of nationalism and in some cases, white nationalism throughout the country. Right. You know, Sonny Bono had a brother named Quibono. And hello? Who benefits? Quibono, right? Doesn't that mean who benefits? I don't. It's a Latin expression. I think it's used in the law. But if you look at who benefits from undocumented workers, it's corporations and how we treat our undocumented workers is how we treat each other. We start torturing overseas and then we bring it here. How we treat the children of undocumented workers is how we eventually treat ourselves. Yeah. And, you know, one worry about the... I mean, I love doing the constitutional discussion. You could get a lot of principles. You could get a lot out of that field. But one thing that's worrying about it is that sometimes, you know, there are boundaries to the ability to use the Constitution to protect rights. But human rights extend beyond the Constitution. And so, you know, that's just frightening when the administration starts to look for these things that they can do that clearly involve human rights violations, that even if they're not constitutional violations are moral wrongs. And so that's why it's so important, you know, and I was just... That was prompted by your comment about torturing abroad. It might be right that you can't bring an Eighth Amendment claim against a president that conducts torture outside the boundaries against non-citizens. You know, there's good argument for why that's not true. What is the Eighth Amendment again? It prevents torture, basically, cruel and unusual punishments. And one kind of thing that's raised by your comments is, you know, put somebody outside the country bring an Eighth Amendment claim, bring an action against the federal government to prevent torture. And my point is, you know, there's an argument that you can't, but it's still obviously a human rights violation. So I definitely wouldn't want to, in any of these discussions, suggest that just because the Constitution doesn't protect a right, that it's not an important human right. So people from Breitbart always talk about the natural laws, that there are laws that supersede the Constitution. Are you taking their argument? Are you saying there are natural laws handed down by God or handed down by the United Nations? The One World Government? What do you mean by natural laws? Well, I think I didn't use the phrase natural laws. I used the phrase human rights and that might sound like natural laws, but they're importantly different. But first, a caveat, if it's something that Breitbart said or is usually, I'm pretty sure, you know, even without reading that website, I know enough to know that I, that's not for me. So I actually will admit, I've never read The Fountainhead, but I'm sure that I disagree with the author. So going back to the question though, there are rights that are guaranteed as moral principles throughout the world and that are not just natural or based in reason, they're based in human rights documents that we are parties to. So there are a variety of conventions that extend human rights to all people in the world. And one of those covenants guarantees the rights of people not to be tortured period. And so even if we're not violating a specific provision, so for instance, the Geneva Convention, some people say prohibit torture against foreign armies. And one argument that was made is, well, Al Qaeda is not a foreign government or foreign army, so torture is okay in that regard. But my point is these kind of broad protections, including the human right to not be tortured, extend to all regardless of which locality or what location you're in. So the Constitution protects rights, international treaties protect rights, but there also are broad human rights that are protected regardless of what government we're talking about or what location we find ourselves in the world. Great. We should move on because there are other issues that have come up this week. But very quickly, the Sanctuary City Executive Order, where are we on that now? The federal court in San Francisco has said that there is enough concern about the potential violation of the 10th Amendment that they've suspended basically the executive order. So no city can, while this case is pending, can have its federal funds revoked, even if it's declared to be in violation of that executive order. And like the travel ban, we'll now go to this next step in the Ninth Circuit. We'll hear the case eventually and we'll see if this trial level judge, this district court judge, was right. I think he was. I think he, you know, look, the thing that is stopping the assault on sanctuary cities, on Muslims through the travel ban, repeatedly have been the federal courts. They have been the heroes in this drama that we've been in over the last few months. And also the people bringing these suits, the ACLU, the local officials in Santa Clara and then San Francisco that brought this suit. So this is a great moment where the district court did the right thing and now we're gonna wait to see if it's affirmed by the Ninth Circuit and eventually it too. This case might go to the Supreme Court. I think sessions probably will fight any ruling against them in the Ninth Circuit. We were talking about your appearance last week. Some friends and I were talking about you saying or teaching me or whatever, my teaching you. That getting rid of Trump is really a political act. That it's kind of nabulous, although some people disagree, but it's really a political act. The takeaway from last week's session was you have to stay on top of Trump. Even if you're not getting rid of him, you're wearing him down. Yes. The purpose of the courts is not just to prosecute and convict and throw the guy out. It's just to use the system to debilitate him. Absolutely. I mean, wow, I couldn't have said that better. The idea is... That's all you need to say then. Move on. Yeah. I guess to add to that, the idea is to teach him. And how do you teach somebody like that? You don't just say things to him. He's not gonna respond to that. You stop him repeatedly. He wants to do this. No, actually, you can't do that. He doesn't understand that the basic role of the office of the presidency is limited. He's not a dictator. He's certainly not a king. That was the idea of the presidency is to grant some powers to the executive and to make the executive strong but limited. And one thing the executive can't do is violate the free exercise clause or in the case that we're talking about in the travel ban case or the case that we're talking about or the establishment clause or in the case that we're talking about involving sanctuary cities, violate the 10th Amendment. Just not allowed to do that. And I don't think he, I'm sure he had never heard of the 10th Amendment before the last couple of months and now he's learning about it. So that's a good thing. I'm just spitballing an idea about a muscular approach towards fighting Trump. The same way a cat plays with a mouse, instead of getting rid of Trump, keep him, keep his presidency alive but bat it around for the next three and a half years in a way that says, no, no, you're, you're, look, this mouse is still alive. Look, look, he's still there but look what we've done to him. This three and a half year process of humiliation and degradation might be more valuable than, hey, there's a smoking gun, now he's got to go to, maybe we can embrace the idea that Trump always survives but he always fails and we're just going to humiliate him and teach him and the citizenry, of course, in the rule of law. Yeah, there was an article, I think it was in the New York Times. I don't want to take credit for this way of phrasing it because it was so good and the idea was that he is about to, maybe already but certainly should be put in the kind of receivership where he's there but, you know, as in bankruptcy, you have a lot of limitations on what you can do and I like that metaphor. I mean, you know, he's shown himself really hostile to the basic principles of the Constitution and by the way, you know, over the summer during the campaign in July I wrote a piece called Trump versus the Constitution about this hostility and I'm not surprised it's come out in the way that he's governed and so this is just who he is. He doesn't get it. He doesn't care and he's in his fundamental disposition, hostile to the principles of the Constitution so there's nothing to do if he's not impeached but to keep him in a kind of receivership and that's what these federal courts have been doing but that said, you know, we have to wait and see what happens as we talked about in depth last week with the Russia story and others so the possibility of impeachment I think also has to be there. Yeah, the other problem is he's a mortal threat to the planet. That's the other problem. Well, you know, there is no constitutional check on the ability to push the nuclear trigger. And climate change getting out of the Paris Accords. Let me ask you about that my reading of the Constitution is that only the Senate can approve a treaty but the Paris Climate Accords that Obama signed on to were not officially a treaty. They were an executive something something. Yeah. And you know, during the Obama Administration a lot of conservatives spoke out repeatedly about the worry that the President was doing too much through executive orders and that the constitutional obligation was to make treaties and agreements with other countries involving the Senate. And that executive orders generally weren't a good way to go. That legislation was the appropriate way to go. And, you know, he had reasons for doing what he did that he certainly didn't have a cooperative Congress through much of his time in office. But you know, the result of that is that now that we've got this President who is in a deep way hostile to the Constitution he can do reverse a lot of gains through executive order. So, including, it looks like the Paris Agreement. You know, Kathy Griffin was the one who had to apologize this week. Not Donald Trump. Not Donald Trump. Kathy Griffin was fired by CNN this week after she released a photo of her holding the decapitated bloody head of Donald Trump. Probably something she shouldn't have done. But CNN fired her. Now, one of the things you always hear is, well, what about her First Amendment rights? Did CNN violate her First Amendment rights by firing her for something she said or did? And more importantly, did they violate her First Amendment rights for firing her for something she said or did that had nothing to do with her? Do with CNN. I guess the short answer is no. The First Amendment requires state action. So the first puzzle that we'd have to figure out if she were to claim a free speech violation, a constitutional free speech violation, is what the government action was. And I don't think there was any here. So no, I don't think she's got a First Amendment claim. I mean, she might have a sort of, you know, I don't know, an argument. And some people do say this, that to really have free speech, it's not enough to protect it from government intervention or government abridgment that it has to be, free speech has to be protected in workplace policies, for instance, throughout the workforce. And I guess the best argument for that is the one that you gave, which is when it comes to saying things that are really completely unrelated to the job, some people say there should be free speech protection. Otherwise, the workforce is really intruding into every aspect of our lives. Now, in her case, I got to say that, you know, she's a spokesman for CNN, she does the New Year's special. So the fact that they'd be concerned that somebody like this had represented herself in a way that was inconsistent with the value of deliberation and reason and really was outside the bounds, that doesn't frankly seem unreasonable to me. So think of Billy Bush, said this stuff with our current president and he was removed, is my understanding from being on air. And, you know, did I think that was an awful decision in the Billy Bush case? I'm probably not. So I don't, I'm worried that we, you know, I don't want to temper who are, sorry, guide who we defend as a matter of free speech by whether we like their politics in a deep way. It seems to me that what she did is probably pretty equivalent to what Billy Bush did. Let me understand the constitutional guardrails with Cathy Griffin. I saw her holding the severed head and I thought she was guessing on Anthony Bourdain's new show that he was going to cook something on CNN. So you're saying that the First Amendment only forbids the government from forbidding speech. Correct. I as a parent can tell my children not to curse yes and they cannot scream First Amendment. That is correct. You can take their allowance away. You can tell them not to do it. That you won't take them to an indoor water park. My daughter keeps asking to go to some indoor water park. That's how I mind that it's a governmental limit on what government can do. Yeah, I'll pin that thought. Okay. You don't want to go to a water park, do you? Yeah. Right? No. Oh, I'm looking for arguments. There's there's a new, first of all, tell your daughter Yeah. That it is an urban myth that they are able to put a chemical in pools to determine whether or not anybody's been urinating in that. Did you know that? They always say, oh, they have this new chemical. It'll turn the water blue if somebody is urinating. You've you've heard that, right? Yes, that follows you around. Everybody lives in fear of that. Doesn't exist, doesn't exist. Don't you think you're obligated, David, to not tell people though? Because if you advertise that, then you might see an increase in Well, yes, but it's also an argument to tell your kids there's no way to know how much urea is inside a water park. Water park. Okay, I'll try it. I'm sure it won't work. Nothing will deter her. It's not now she wants to go to Great Wolf Lodge. Now I've remembered the name. So tell her we're going to focus today. I know, but just hang on for one second. The way tell her the way to find out if somebody's urinating in the pool, the Canadians have discovered this, is measure the amount of artificial sweetener in the pool. Artificial sweetener is not processed by the human body and it only gets released through urine. And that's how you can measure the amount of urine in a water park by the amount of artificial sweetener. Okay, did I throw you off your game now? We began this and I thought you had nothing to teach me. Now I see. I'm stank corrected. Did I throw you off your game? No, just learning. Okay. Taking it all in. All right, so but I hope you've lost your train of thought. No, I'm good. No. The first amendment, the point was, there's not. Well, I can imagine what it was like to teach you in Columbia University. Go ahead. That kid, it's like, you know, who are the great teachers that you had? I'm sure it's like Vandoren. And, you know, I can see Vandoren saying, oh, Feldman. I kept trying to make this great point about literature. All he wanted to discuss was the urine in the pool. In Dwight Morrow High School, I was the class pundit. Not the class clown, the class pundit. Nice, I don't doubt it. Go ahead. All right, the first amendment, go ahead. There's no way you can remember. She's got no case basically on First Amendment grounds. The one kind of odd thing is, I guess it does involve criticism of the president. So if she could show that the president was pressuring CNN, and we have no evidence of that, that's the one thing I could come up with that might make it a First Amendment case. And before we move on to other First Amendment issues, specifically Portland, the government does restrict speech in the workplace. Yes. Oh, it can restrict its own. There's a whole, I mean, part of, in the book, I talk about this case. When the state speaks. Yes, called Kestra. And in Canada, there was a case involving a teacher that was fired for a lesson that was racist. I think it was a math teacher, and it was some racist lesson. But not only was the teacher fired, the teacher was put in prison under their hate speech laws in Canada. In the United States, you certainly couldn't put somebody in prison for teaching a lesson that was like that, that was racist. But what you could do is certainly fire them. And the idea is that, look, the government in its workplaces has certain things it's trying to accomplish. So the state is trying to teach the idea of equal protection or the idea of respect regardless of race. And if a teacher is undermining that through their math lesson, they have the ability to fire them. What if they go much further? That you can go to jail and here rightly, I think you cannot. But that seems right to me, that the government can promote its own message. But CNN is not the government. That's right. Yeah, but a similar logic. I mean, the reason why you can't bring a First Amendment case against CNN is because there's no government action and there's no First Amendment right in this country against private entities. If you post something on Facebook that embarrasses your future employer, they can fire you. They can go through your history. There was a comedy writer over Saturday Night Live who tweeted something and I think it was about Barron Trump. And she got fired this year for tweeting something about Barron Trump. It had nothing to do with the show. Who was that? I don't remember her name. I do know that she was then hired by Seth MacFarland. I believe Seth MacFarland hired her after she got fired by NBC. But it wasn't an official NBC Twitter account. She said something about Barron Trump being a future serial killer and it was deemed unacceptable by NBC and Saturday Night Live fired her. It's interesting, though, when Kathy Griffin got fired, one of the reasons was Trump tweeted that Barron saw that photo and started to scream that he thought it was true. So he uses Barron, but we're not allowed to. And if you have a kid who sees that photo and screams, was he screaming out of joy? That's the other issue. Let's go back to First Amendment issues. Jeremy Joseph Christian was arraigned. Right there, that joke? That's why we have the First Amendment. It protects you from Donald Trump coming after you for that joke. It's a good thing. I'm more concerned about somebody else coming after me for what I intimate in my jokes. But have you noticed I haven't brought it up? Very good. I have not mentioned it once. I have not mentioned it once. Jeremy Joseph Christian was accused of stabbing a death of two men on a train in Portland after Christian allegedly cursed and screamed epithets. I think she was a Muslim woman or she was wearing a head scarf. He has a long history of using the First Amendment to go on alt-right chat rooms and say horrible things about Muslims. During his arraignment, he screamed free speech America, free speech. And now the mayor of Portland is asking the courts to ban an alt-right march. I think in June, march against Sharia. I think it's been postponed. I think the march against Sharia is going to be held in Seattle. But freedom of speech issues. Are you allowed to be on a train and scream epithets at a Muslim woman without threatening her? No, absolutely not. I mean, that's one of the saddest. I mean, partly I wrote this book to give a third vision of free speech, which was that we should avoid just outlawing all hate speech and also avoid just protecting it. That there's this third way of protecting some things that are called hate speech. Generalize viewpoints, general expressions of ideas. We should protect them, I say, but also the government has a role in criticizing them. But we want to be clear on the kind of hate speech that is protected. What's protected is saying something at a rally, writing a book. What is absolutely not protected under our First Amendment, jurisprudence is a threat. And going up to somebody and assaulting them with words is not protected. And the court has made that clear about then its fighting words doctrine more recently in a case called Virginia versus Black where it distinguished between burning a cross on a field during a rally, during a clan rally, which is protected, the court said, because it's the expression of a general viewpoint. And what is not protected, which is burning the cross on a lawn of an African-American family in retaliation for a fight that had occurred earlier in the day. In that second case, the court said, look, what's going on is the use of words in order to communicate a threat to a particular individual. And in no way does our First Amendment protect that. In this case, the idea that this was free speech, that this guy was going up and really committing an assault against somebody who was just sitting there on a train, is absurd. I mean, it is beyond unreasonable to claim that that is about free speech. And it's really, as a free speech specialist, it's just one of the deepest insults when people try to claim the mantle of this fundamental right, this essential right to our Democratic Republic and to use it to justify a crime of assault. So no, there is nothing than what that guy is saying that is reasonable. Okay, I'm Jeremy Joseph Christian's lawyer. Right. Let's just pretend he was sitting on a train opposite a woman in a headscarf without getting up from his seat, without standing over her. He starts screaming horrible things at her, without getting up and threatening her. There was a, he's a cross, he's on the other side of the train. Is that protected by freedom of speech? If I start screaming, but I don't physically threaten them, if I say I'm not going to punch you, I'm not going to hit you, but I think you're blubbity, blubbity, blubbity. Is that protected by freedom, the First Amendment? I mean, the question of whether somebody has been threatened isn't whether you use the words like I'm going to come get you or I'm going to punch you. It's whether you're doing something that's a reasonable person would think is threatening. So in the cross-burning case that I talked about, I'm sure that the lawyers argued that burning a cross on somebody's lawn is the generalized expression of the idea of white supremacy and that's protected. But what the court said is give me a break. Burning it on somebody's lawn is directed at them with the message underneath implied very clearly that I'm going to come get you. So the words that you use, I think, don't matter. You can engage in threatening behavior without using the words directly that I'm going to come get you. So yeah, I think even in the cases that you're describing that that sounds like threatening behavior, certainly. So actually, remember, it's a closed-in train car which is really potentially very dangerous and threatening situation. You can't just get up and leave. The mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, went to the courts to block a permit for a march against Sharia. He said it wasn't the right time. We have a freedom to assemble. Is that the First Amendment freedom to assemble? There is a freedom of assembly in the First Amendment and related to that, certainly very closely, is the freedom of speech. But you can't have a spontaneous rally. I can't decide. I can't do a flash mob thing on my podcast and say everybody show up outside Corey Brettschneider's house to protest water parks. The courts have said that localities, municipalities, governments can regulate the time, place, and manner of assembly and speech. You know, for good reason that there's potentially danger in these things. They have to be able to be prepared to have a police presence to protect people at the rally. But that's very different than what's potentially an issue in the Portland case, which is discrimination in who gets the permit by opinion or viewpoint. That you can't do. And the government is certainly prohibited from engaging in viewpoint discrimination. So the police are well within their rights to break up a spontaneous rally or a mob. In other words, if you're gathering outside O.J.'s house, he's driving home, A.C. Collins is driving him home, and everybody's gathered around the Brettonwood estate. The police have every right to say break it up, go home. You need a permit. We'd have to look at the case, but in general, for mass rallies, permitting is a constitutional requirement that a municipality can have. They can demand for a mass rally that a group has a permit and they can disperse a crowd that refuses to go through that process. But the process of permitting can't just be an excuse for keeping people from conducting protests. And that the permit process itself and the denial of permits is something that the courts can review and will review looking at the First Amendment free speech and freedom of assembly protections. Now, that's not to say that the police can always just disperse you. So there's an interesting case about sidewalks and whether or not you can gather on the sidewalk outside an abortion clinic and whether or not some unpermitted protesting at these clinics are allowed. Now, that's a kind of hard case because you could see on the one hand the argument for why you don't want to have people feel harassed. And on the other side, people are saying, the protesters are saying, this isn't about harassment, it's about our general views about abortion. And so cases like that, the argument anyway of the protesters is when it comes to small crowds, it really isn't a need for a permit for picketing or for small protests. So, you know, the permit rationale is about stability and danger. And I think in the absence of that, it's not clear to me that you always need a permit for the First Amendment, right? We only have six minutes left. This was fantastic. And one of the reasons it was fantastic is I actually prepared. You did? Yeah, and I'm not having a conversation with you. It was presumptuous. The last time we did this, I was a little arrogant. I like that. I like conversation. Wow. You are a citizen and I am a citizen. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going to take up your time and my listener's time without proper preparation. Okay. But thank you. Especially since, yeah, and I was winging it and you could tell if you go back and listen to our last session. You want to talk about Charlie Chaplin? Exactly. You recently wrote The Travel Ban Appeals. The recent Travel Ban Appeals, The Acting Solicitor General relied largely on a case called Clinedanced v. Mandel to the showrunner for Veep Mandel to argue that those outside of the country are not protected by the Establishment Clause. So let me let me read that again. You recently wrote in the recent Travel Ban Appeals The Acting Solicitor General relied largely on a case called Clinedanced v. Mandel to argue that those outside the country are not protected by the Establishment Clause. So I want to get to Charlie Chaplin in a second because he was banned from coming into the country. He was never a United States citizen. What is a Solicitor General? We've been through this. Who is Solicitor General Jeffrey Wall? I think it's important for all of us to know who these players are. Yes. What is the Establishment Clause? The Animus Doctrine? The Rationality Doctrine? And can you... The big question is you're not allowed to remove or ban somebody from this country based on their religion. Are you allowed to ban them or remove them based on their ideology? Which I believe is why Charlie Chaplin who is not an American citizen believe that's why he wasn't allowed back in the country in 1952. Yeah. I mean I should say I certainly think you can't ban somebody because of their religion and that's why the travel ban is unconstitutional. And we've been talking about this for a long time and that was just my opinion I guess before but now that opinion has been affirmed by the Fourth and Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. So we could lose that case still in the Supreme Court but I am pretty firm ground to think that they're going to agree with the Fourth and Ninth Circuit Court that you cannot ban somebody because of their religion and that's what the executive order does. Now here's a counter argument because the case isn't over and Donald Trump has a very good lawyer the government and in this case the government is really Trump because it's about the federal government's executive order has a lawyer that argues on behalf of the president before the Supreme Court it's a special office called the office of the Solicitor General former Solicitor Generals are often I would say probably always major figures in the field of constitutional law so Justice Kagan was formally the Solicitor General of the United States in the Obama administration before she was appointed to the bench and what this Solicitor General argued that's who the person is that you mentioned is what did you say he is he's the acting Solicitor General now? Yeah he's the act yes. Right, yeah. In other words he's a trained thespian. He's an acting sorry. Right. I apologize. Yeah. Do I have to laugh at those jokes? No, no and by the way it's a part of the job description. This is why you have no idea how much delight I take in making horrible jokes around yeah go ahead go ahead. Pretty good I mean but I could have done that you're you won several Emmys yeah well okay so the Solicitor General has a very strong argument on his case. I mean I don't it's a losing argument but it's a strong argument and that's that there's a case called Mandel which you mentioned and what Mandel was about was the facts were there was a Marxist professor I think who wanted to come into the country and a non-citizen and was barred from doing so because of his Marxism because of the beliefs now common sense would say well wait a second the First Amendment protects against discrimination based on viewpoint but what the government said defending this exclusion was that's not true for people outside the country when it comes to the power of the president he or she has increased powers in regard to those who were involved in immigration matters non-citizens wanting to come in and so the Supreme Court actually found that barring the professor because of the ideology because of the Marxism was constitutional because of these special powers of the president now in the extreme what some defenders of presidential power have argued is that the reason why Mandel came out the way it did why the professor could be barred is because the president has absolute or plenary power in matters of immigration now what that would mean what would be coming back to our case is that the president can exclude people based on whatever he or she wants so if the president wants to exclude people because of their race that's fine because of their national origin that's fine or because of religion that's fine now what the courts have clarified is even though Mandel came down the way it did because it was about ideology that's different from religion or race and discriminating based on somebody's ideology might be reasonable but what's not reasonable is basically hating somebody for their religion or their ethnicity a more precise way to put it is that you can't be prejudice in your executive orders or in your immigration decisions even though you might discriminate based on ideology and I think I've read of a climate change proponent a professor who was saying the climate change is real I think I read recently that he was supposed to speak somewhere in Texas and the immigration department kind of said get out of the country well under Mandel it looks like that's constitutional but maybe it's time to rethink Mandel too I think if we really are proponents of the idea that we should be able to hear all viewpoints that maybe that should mean that First Amendment protections extend to matters of immigration too now I don't want to claim the courts have said that they have not they've said the opposite and I do think it for the purpose of argument it's important to see the common sense that says you know what ideology that's one kind of hard case but an easy case is don't engage in prejudice when you're picking who comes in and who comes out because that means us as American people and it also what I'm trying to say in this kind of complicated short piece on the take care blog is that the government always has to act rationally even when we're deferring to presidents and matters that they have lots of control in like immigration and what prejudice is is an irrational action and government action that's irrational never has a place in our constitutional order that's not just something that I'm saying it's I think part of the well not I think it is part of the holding in the Kumi that animus fails even the lowest level of review and in a case about gay rights which we've mentioned called Romer the court says the same thing that hatred or animus or prejudice is never a rational basis or legitimate basis for government action under our constitution great Cori Brett Schneider Professor Cori Brett Schneider is a constitutional law professor his book is when the state speaks and tell me about this website that you write on it's pretty great it's it's written for the layman I recommend it to all your readers who are interested in reading about the legal issues concerning Trump it's called take care blog it's just a great collection of constitutional lawyers almost entirely writing about the constitutional violations of Donald Trump and his administration it's takecareblog.com and the articles are short which for me is great yeah and I should say too it's uh... the publisher an owner is uh... Joshua Matz who was our attorney in the travel ban case and drafted that brief maybe I'll write for yeah good, I truly love it actually no, honestly no, no, no, no this was fantastic thank you thank you, pleasure stay on the line for once do you want to help out for only five dollars a month you can gain access to our premium content by going to davidfeldenshow.com hit the go premium button and sign up we accept all major credit cards and once again every penny you spend on this show goes towards keeping the lights on all right, I promise you this time it's gonna work I promise you Tom McCaffrey is a hysterical comedian he started doing it back in 1999 in Los Angeles his credits include multiple appearances on VH1's best week ever Comedy Central's premium blend Comedy Central's secret stash movie he's got a Comedy Central record called Invite Them Up he's been on the A-list he's got another comedy CD called I hope I'm saying this right Lou Diamond Phillips did I pronounce that right yeah, you did because it's Lou Diamond Phillips but with a question mark like a question you also yeah, you did it right you also directed the movie Adventures in Comedy and it's a pleasure to have you on sir thank you thank you for having me I'm glad to be here you in my apartment parking yeah, you're in Manhattan and where are you gonna be performing this week well, tomorrow I'm doing a show down in the east village at this place called Black Cat it's at 8 p.m. I think it's on Stanton and then I'm supposed to do Broadway on Saturday the upstairs room and that's it for the weekend and then next week what's up well, one of the reasons I asked to be on the show is because not only are you a great comic you had a midlife crisis and decided not to stop doing comedy but to do something else what are you in the middle of right now well, I started making math so is that what you're talking about yeah I went to I enrolled in law school in 2015 so that was definitely a midlife crisis uh but I think it was a healthy one you know like midlife they can be worse than going back to school to get a law degree so now you were born in 1973 yes and you so I was 41 when I got into law school and was 42 when I started 42 when you started law school I just turned yet okay how many peers in law school are your age not many I found emotionally there's a lot that was definitely one of the like eye-opening experiences because I mean I didn't go in thinking that everyone would be my age but I it kind of made it kind of brought into focus just how old I was because I feel like in comedy you're around people who are older but no one acts their age everyone's very acting like they're not their age so when I was around like 23 year olds like they acted weird towards like me being in like my early 40s they made it be clear that it was like weird to them that I was like around them but in comedy I never had you know I mean like when you're in comedy you know I would be like 40 and I'd be like a 23-year-old girl who was a fan of comedy and you being 40s not a big deal to them but in law school like a girl who's in law school a 42-year-old guy that is a big deal to them and they're like they think it's weird and why isn't it weird? it is weird I guess I just did you know you know comedy and like showbiz it's like not a normal world so you're not really getting the real experience of the world you know what I mean the people you're around aren't a good kind of like you know representation of of the culture out there so it kind of was a wake-up call when I got there to how old I actually was I was like oh yeah like I'm not really young so are you older than are you are you older than any of your teachers any of your professors yeah definitely I think I I had a professor this semester who I'm not I think he's 40 so he's like a few years younger than me and uh that was weird because you know they get mad at you sometimes like the class you know so it's weird to be like being kind of like reprimanded by someone who's like eight years younger than you and they're they're younger but they're like older because they're they they're mature you know they're talking about the teachers you're talking about the teachers I'm talking about the professors yeah like they're 35 but they're like I'm a soft 40 I was a soft 42 I hadn't really I was very sheltered and being in comedy didn't you know didn't make me mature you know I mean that's kind of why I was doing it because I didn't want to grow up but then law school is definitely like an environment where you should be grown up kind of you know even though it's not like that I'm surrounded by millennials who are are not very mature but so the average I definitely go ahead go ahead the average I think they told me the day I got there the dean said the average age of the incoming class was 28 all right so I met there are people they're older than me there are some people they're older than me and there I would meet people who were like 30 who were like they would talk about how old they were you know like they'd be like ops I'm like one of the oldest people here and I'd be like oh shit how is the brain how is the brain holding up is it I would think just not that I would really good question I would never go to I wouldn't go to law school I would practice law until I got caught without a license right but I'm not yeah I'm not going to spend the money to go to law school but I will give legal advice however I think at my age I would have an advantage over a 28 year old in that I could be more focused I could put in the extra hours because I got nothing better I got nothing better to do and it's not like I've got hot and cold running women coming into my right my room so I it just mainly cold it just mainly cold women they start off hot they're hot when we start the okay yeah do you have fewer would you say you have fewer distractions than somebody who is 15 years younger than you were yeah I think that that's that's been the advantage I don't know if like right at it if I had thought about doing this in college it wasn't like complete I mean it is a midlife crisis but it wasn't like a thing where I was like well I guess I'm gonna do that I had always thought my dad was a lawyer I have a lot of lawyers my family my mom had always wanted me to be a lawyer and you know when I was young I was like whatever like I'm not gonna do that and then I like if I had done it out of college I do not think I would have had to focus or I mean you know a lot of these people who are in my class who are probably like 24 now because I'm about to go into my third year you know they're at that age where you you want to party like you you're you're going out this is when you're like you know you just you're just legal and up to drink you're out of college these are like your party years do you party because I remember do you party now I've been to a Christmas party with you you really when you said you party do you mean like like you do blow is that what you mean no I'm just kidding that's that's like that's like code for that whenever someone's like you party that means they want you to do cocaine well hang on for one second hang on for one second I'm so sheltered is that an actual thing I know this sounds naive but in your world do people actually you're breathing into the phone by the way I am yeah can you stop breathing sure yeah thank you much something I've been working on do people still do blow I mean is that an actual thing where they said do you want to party I mean if you wanted to score some cocaine you could I feel like blow is it's so ubiquitous now it's like back the millennials have embraced blow like this is 1984 again because I have been I'm offered cocaine all the time I'm a I see it all the time and I when I was in my 20s I never was offered cocaine I never was around cocaine I feel like we didn't when I was in my 20s our we didn't really do it it wasn't like our it wasn't cool to us or something but now it's that's another thing that's weird about law school like I I had to get back into school to see to be surrounded by drugs again like I see drugs everywhere now well we should mention that you're going to law school in Medellin Columbia so it's yeah yeah exactly where are you going to law school I go to New York law school okay you're at New York law school I don't want to get back uh yeah I don't want to get you into any trouble with the students I don't do right I don't do drugs I'm just saying like I've I've seen it more being back at school but I think it's because I'm around people that age who would do it you know what I mean like I and it's kind of like I just think it's ironic that you know you always I would always see these PSAs about like oh you can't do drugs and be in school you know and it's like I really like now that I'm back in school I feel like I see that's where the I'm seeing drugs again where do you see that where do you see them you're not in a dorm I would assume you're in an apartment um yeah I just you know you know like people will talk about it and you know we'll talk about doing them and kind of because they're stressed out I mean I would say the main one is like weed because like and and drinking a lot too you know it's it's very stressful so I think to release you know it does get the main thing about law school that I will say is like what you had asked before which I didn't really answer but I would like I feel like I'm I'm much more prepared for it now because I I take it more seriously now because I'm like closer to dying you know I was like when you're in your 20s you don't think you're gonna die for some reason but now I'm like when you're in your 40s you're like oh yeah I'm gonna die like I'm definitely gonna die like not that far from now and uh so you're like oh yeah I gotta I have to do well here I have to do this and also I'm you know gonna have to pay the loans back so I and I had to you know I have a scholarship so I can't really lose my scholarship because you have to keep a certain GPA so what I was in college I wasn't paying for it so I didn't it didn't seem like a real thing like you know it's like a thing almost my parents are forcing me to do and they were paying so you know it makes you a better student though so if you're working off a scholarship and you have to hit a certain certain threshold that does make you a better student right it does and I do have less distractions like I'm not as I am distracted but not like I think when I would have been when I was younger I'm I'm not I can focus better now and uh it still is really hard because you know I think it's because I hadn't I hadn't been at school for a while and it's a lot of reading and I I don't know that I was really are you reading at a time it's are you reading are you reading books or are you reading on a tablet I'm reading books and it's like hard reading it's it's kind of like learning a language you know like when you you look at a legal contract and you're like I don't because that's the whole thing with like why you need lawyers because you're like I don't understand this because someone else you read it so that you're reading that shit all the time and but you have to start understanding it that's what gets hard hard about it like you'll read something and you're like I don't know what that means and you have to read it three more times and because I was taking it so seriously because I was older and I had a lot more invested in it I would if I didn't understand something I really would put in the work to get it you know what I mean and I wouldn't just kind of blow it off now are you looking words up I would assume with a Kindle or a tablet you can just touch these Latin words and they pop up that would make going to law school so much easier you're not reading electronically now I there was one class where I had books on Kindle and I didn't like it I don't know why I just reading on a Kindle I don't like I feel like it's so easy to get distracted because you're on a device that you could just start looking up like corn on so you know I just I rather have the actual book in front of me so but I yeah I would have my iPhone and I would have to look up legal terms all the time I mean I still do to this even now so it's like how's your and your memory is still good um yeah yeah it's good it's pretty good is it getting better because you're going to law school I don't know I mean maybe because I I'm utilizing it more than I ever have because even in comedy I I would be lazy about memorizing like it's not my jokes but I would have like a set list a lot you know so like I don't know I feel like you know comedy I've worked hard at it but it it can kind of breed laziness a little bit I don't know but I was always kind of inherently yeah you agree with that oh yeah I I found it was a lot like if you know just being a comedian and not doing anything else was like being a boxer and eventually get a little punch drunk because of the repetition and I think for me it was brain damaging I found I found it was a little numbing to the brain because of the repetition but do you find yourself in conversations with people and suddenly you're more logical you're more persuasive or you're just a bigger a hole because that's what lawyers well that's a really interesting thing because it's something I've been discovered because you know that was always the thing the the cliche with lawyers is that their assholes and a lot of like people hate them you know because the old jokes where they're like what do you call like a million lawyers at the bottom of the ocean like a good start you know I just knew those jokes and then when I got into law school I started realizing I was like oh yeah like there's a personality type that is kind of hard to get along with so there were a lot of people and I mean I think part of it was too was that I was older so there was that gap but like but a lot of people weren't very like friendly or nice and I've grappled with that a little bit because I don't really like being an asshole I can be but sometimes I'm like I don't I feel like I might have to be like kind of an asshole a little bit when I'm a lawyer I think there's like a line you can like you know kind of walk a fine line where you don't have to be an out and out asshole but you know you just have to like assert yourself in certain situations that I do find that I had problems somewhat with that like setting boundaries in certain situations and now I think I'm better at it like sorry there's no and there's there's nothing about like defending yourself in a situation but there's a you can go you can go too far sometimes and that's kind of where you can go into the level being an asshole okay I want to ask you about the personality type because I may or may not know somebody who may or may not be me who is going through lawyers because he may or may not be getting a divorce and okay so let me ask you I have no idea yeah we don't we won't say who we're talking about would you say out of a hundred law students how many of them are capable of admitting they're wrong how many of them are capable of saying I made a mistake well law students might be a little different because they might be a little more open to admitting they're wrong because maybe they're still at a point of like oh I kind of don't know what I'm doing yet but I mean you know maybe like maybe like 30 which isn't bad but I think that's 30 out of 100 what 30 will admit they made a mistake or 30 can't admit they made yeah definitely I think law students definitely because I think law students are a little more open to you they're not as stubborn and they're they're a lot of them are younger so they might be a little more like oh yeah I can admit that I was wrong about that but that doesn't mean that they still don't have like a certain personality type that's kind of off-putting you know what I mean like I think what is just there's like a there's a competitive like when you when I walk in the building at times you can just kind of like feel something in the air that is like training a little like just like competition and people aren't there to like be your friend some people are very I've made friends there some people are very nice but you know I have a lot of interactions where I will know people and I talk to them and then I'll see them and they never acknowledge me again which is kind of my biggest pet pee in the world like when I know someone and then they just ignore me like after that I I really don't like and that happens to me all the time there like it's like your friendship expired or something you know what I mean my dealings with lawyers is they're not concerned about the truth they're not even concerned about winning they're not concerned about the client they're concerned about billable hours and they will fight just as hard for their right to bill you as they will the opposing council that there's no that's the other excuse me for yeah go ahead there's no score there's no scorecard because most lawsuits are settled so there's no one lost column you can't call a lawyer and say you know how many of you won how many of you lost because we've lost our right to sue in america so you really don't know how good a lawyer you're hiring because none of them really go to court they all go into some kind of mediation arbitration because they've taken away our constitutional right to a trial they've just made it so expensive is that fair to say that but what that last part that no one goes to court yeah I mean I haven't had much experience in that realm but I would assume yeah like it's a lot easier to settle than to go through an entire trial which is that you know I feel like I've I've learned a lot they say a lot you want to avoid going to trial as much as you can because it's just so much easier to settle and I don't know that that's like even a money thing I think it's just kind of like it'll be more of a pain in the ass in your clients it depends on and I was going to say with the lawyers you're talking about I depends on the type of law area because in certain areas I think there are going to be lawyers like that but I've come across a lot who at least at this point are not like are not focused on just making money and you know they don't care about winning or they just kind of about billing people and getting their money but are more kind of like did get into law to like help people and seek justice um but you know I don't know I think that's the nature of that business it's very competitive and a lot of people go into it specifically just to make money so well I don't mind I don't mind but here's the thing I don't mind the competition I want it to be competitive the problem is it's not the the lawyers compete with their own clients to prove that they're smarter than their clients and they can outwit their clients and charge them for things that they never did because they've privatized it's certainly in civil procedure they've privatized the procedure in this country so that it's just prohibitive to sue or when you're sued you you settle because you just do not want to go through it even so somebody can drag your name through the mud say whatever they want and because it's because they've privatized civil the civil lawsuits you have retired judges settling things so you never know how good a lawyer you have because he's not or she is not competing with opposing counsel you mean that you don't know because they never actually have to go into court and yeah do it and yeah and they don't but I do think settling is even like an art in itself you know like the negotiating of how they handle that I think that that's where I think that that being like assertive and having to be an asshole sometimes comes in but do they teach you how to settle we on my first year we had some like negotiating clinics where we you know we'd have to go in and do like we'd be going up against another set of attorneys for our client trying to get a deal so yeah we kind of we went through that but I have heard a lot they'll be like you want to settle I mean they don't like sit but they're just like it's sometimes it's an easier situation or scenario to just not to drag it out in court not to drag it out where you're talking I know I know it's not you that you're talking about no no no no I've never I've never met a lawyer with your would they like with the ones what if it is you would they like the ones you experience really shitty or something or really lie they were like adversarial to you I'm saying my friend his experience with all lawyers when it comes to civil litigation is they spend more time negotiating with their clients than they do opposing counsel they have they want to make a deal even if the deal is no good they want to make the deal so they can move on they do a cost benefit analysis of their time their money and they'll they don't do their homework they don't review the documents they say ah you know these are rounding errors let's just settle and my friend I think excuse me yeah your friend what my friend says these are rounding errors to you because you want to move on but my friend says I have to live with these rounding errors and then it becomes a back and forth and you say he says well why don't you go speak to opposing counsel and they'll go well that's going to cost you you don't want to spend that money and then he says well why don't you do your job I mean how do you sleep at night what do you take pride in and then they say well you're being very difficult to work with and since your retainer has almost been run down to zero we no longer want to work with you go find another lawyer and my friend then it's just a never-ending cycle of hell I would say well I would say what must happen and this is just from like experiencing it is like it's learning all this stuff is really difficult and it takes a lot of work and then when you are a lawyer that's kind of your leverage because your whole thing is you're banking on people who don't who get in situations where they need help and they don't understand anything so I think a lot of lawyers will take it obviously will take advantage of that and and what you're talking about with your friend is like they're kind of they're kind of relying on the fact that oh well they're never gonna be able to understand what I'm telling them you know what I mean because they don't know anything and then no one understands this language so when my friend asks a question and says what does this mean and why didn't you do such and such and he says it in this tone of voice I I thought you were going to do such and such you said you would they immediately say I don't like your tone of voice you're being difficult huh how am I yeah that kind of that old game sounds like your friend sounds like he's being difficult there really maybe it's that maybe it's that maybe it's the timbre of his voice because sometimes when he says I don't understand this maybe it's menacing but my friend is a really decent person well I you know when I dealt with lawyer I know your friend he's a fucking he's an asshole problem is my friend would agree with you that he's an asshole which is but he's still entitled to his day in court he's still entitled to getting an officer of the court who's going to no I know look out for him and they don't seem to care they only care about their trips well they should and the lawyer shouldn't be that way with the client they shouldn't be adversarial that's the whole thing is you're hiring them it's like hiring someone to be an asshole for you so you don't have to be the asshole so but they shouldn't do that to you but in my experience with lawyer this is like one of my last things that like finally pushed me over to wanting to be a lawyer was I when I made my movie I did this I did this distribution deal with this company and they just kind of ripped me off which I kind of was like anticipating because I just wanted to get it out there I didn't want to sit on it and um I just remember their lawyer called me and was like you know this is supposed to be a lawyer that's like representing the company that has like interested in my movie and they're you know so I have a product they want he was like strong arming me in the taking the deal and like signing it and I was like wow this this is amazing like this guy is he's just because he was doing that he was using tactics like he was like well you know what but if you don't do this like we're gonna we're gonna take it away and then like you can do whatever you want with your movie and like we'll find something else and uh and again like I didn't know anything I didn't understand contracts and I'd had a lawyer look at it but I mean I feel that happens a lot like lawyers they know that what they what they're holding over your head so they can straw they can scare you in the doing things or if you don't like some of you to understand it like they can kind of scare you and they're like backing off but they shouldn't be doing that if you're the if you're the client I mean sounds like you ran into some shitty lawyers and unfortunately in my experience in law school I've met a lot of people who I don't have um respectful skills but I think what it is is like it's a lot it's it attracts it to a personality it's kind of similar to comedy like it attracts a personality that is like narcissistic and has a big ego and doesn't know how to interact with people well and I think that that's part of the profession a lot of people don't kind of take for granted you know I mean where they're like well I don't need to like deal with people I mean but it's kind of like if you're going to deal with clients you know you have to be able to deal with people yeah how do you it goes totally everyone yeah it goes back to how do you quantify the quality of a lawyer there's no way to tell there's like a reputation you know a comic you can you can see he's either bombing or killing and with a lawyer because they never go to trial you have no you don't know if they're winners or losers let me ask you this most of them do I yeah go ahead you know go ahead I mean I was just working for a farm as like a personal injury farm and I think that they had um they had a good success rate they weren't like going to court a lot but I remember when I when I interviewed there was a client there and he was like oh this he thought I was waiting to be like that I was going I was going to interview but he thought I was like going to maybe be a client he was like oh you should these guys are great like they've gotten me so much money yeah you look like you've been a victim of a slip and fall yeah I hear that a lot I don't know what does that look like is that like your face is that like a I don't know I don't know yeah um can you just is it safe to say that if I wanted to I could sue every day I could bring a lawsuit to a corporation and they'll just throw me money to settle to a corporation yeah you just sue them and they're just going to say it's not worth it I'm going to settle here's some money go away no because a lot of those corporations they they will they've had that happen and so they know that if they start settling for things that people will take advantage of it so they won't in fact I've I've seen cases where they will like fight someone all the way because they don't want other people to know that they can that they can do the same thing I mean it depends on what it if it's like a totally like unwinnable small thing that might first are wrapped and they just want to go away but if it's like the frivolous I think that they would be like we're not gonna I mean their lawyers are probably just destroy whoever the other lawyer was mm-hmm going back to the going back to the character of your peers I think it's safe to say that most Americans who vote Republican have this epiphany where they say hey I'm not a racist I'm not an ignoramus I'm a Republican and I think a lot of people say hey I'm not an a-hole I'm a lawyer and I think a lot of parents look at their their kid who doesn't take no for an answer who doesn't play well with others and they go haha he's a lawyer that's he you're gonna be a lawyer as though that's a good thing right well I mean so that's what I was saying before it is a thing I've thought about more than I've been in it because even before law school I was always like and this is like a comedian trait too where you know part of my what what drew me to comedy was just kind of I'm probably a lot of comedians like the world is very unfair and I feel like I wasn't heard in a certain way and I would see how people acted or looked at the world I didn't agree it felt very unfair to me there's a lot of unfairness they kind of drew me to to finally do comedy because there's justice and comedy that's what Jerry Seinfeld talks about there is justice in comedy if you were is that what he says yep if you work really hard and write the jokes properly and tell the jokes properly and perform them properly there will be justice there may not be success in money but there definitely will be justice so there was always an underlying thing about in like justice I was doing comedy to get just to get my point of view that I I felt like a lot of people were wrong about something and my point of view was right so I was and I'm very into what I would get into arguments like with people and they had like really stupid point you know their point of view was wrong and I would get very into like proving that they were wrong with logic and so there I'm actually I did a show with you once I think it was like a year ago was that Eastville I don't and like I did a joke about Caitlyn Jenner and I wasn't even making fun of Caitlyn Jenner I was just like commenting on it and then some other comedian there this girl was like 23 was came out just kind of started yelling at me about doing that joke and I kind of just started fighting back with her because she was so wrong and I was just like angry that she didn't understand how wrong she was and then I realized I was like this because she's like a 23-year-old girl like nothing I say is going to like convince her of anything so well so I guess the point of that was just I always had that mentality and like I was I always needed to prove I was right which I don't know that that's even a good mentality well I remember that incident I remember I remember that incident and I want you do oh yeah and I remember that that woman she is the quintessential millennial but I'm not going to mention her name she's attractive she gets up on stage and she is the poster child for millennial psychosis and millennial psychosis is my shit don't stink there's a breed of comics who actually believe they're killing and they tend to be millennials and they just keep going and going and going and telling telling these stories in comedy clubs not alt rooms but in comedy clubs and you want to stand up and say hey I get it I know I'm old I'm a dinosaur I don't belong in show business anymore because I'm painful on the eyes and you're not but these people who you're performing for you are boring them you are not entertaining you you are a dollar you don't get a trophy for this I don't know what kind of millennial psychosis is feeding your brain the notion that you're in show business this is not show business this is just self indulgence this is just everybody gets a trophy that's who she is and I remember she opened for me right after Trump won and nobody hates Trump more than I but when I watch her perform I'm glad Trump is president because she has this entitlement she knows what's best and I remember she walked up to you and lectured you about comedy she started lecturing me about and I was at first I was trying to be chill I was like hey look it's just a joke I'm not saying anything I'm not insulting it would annoyed me about what happened with that joke is that it people would get really mad and awkward and they weren't like it was nothing to do with the joke it was just mentioning Caitlyn Jenner people got mad immediately like I had the audacity to like even mention that like that was this horrible and I remember what started happening is I would do that joke and it would do badly because I could feel the touch and then I'd get mad at the credit and I would just say to them I'd be like well why are you mad like what is the problem with that joke like I would kind of try to engage what and then I think I did that that night and then she yeah she came up to me totally I didn't she just unprovoked she just walked up to me and started engaging you know with it and I don't know the thing is like I'm a comedian I'm doing comedy like we're supposed to talk about things you know what I mean like this is the place where you're gonna you're gonna attack someone for expressing something somebody's in a comedy club it's just kind of like it's like those those comedians when they attack them for telling jokes about like rape or something I'm it's just kind of like we're comedians and we're supposed to talk about things that maybe make people uncomfortable and I think what's important is you can tackle any subject as long as you're clever about it or have like a point of view on it so I don't like that like I can't mention Caitlyn Jenner and like not be looked at as some complete asshole like I don't I don't know how that something happened there's something that something happens in the zeitgeist when Chris Brown punched Rihanna it was remember that it was verboten to make fun of Chris Brown everyone decided it was to make fun of Chris Brown yeah yes at the time it was considered sad I knew feminists and they said ah it's sad it's just sad don't don't don't talk about it I go well he he pushed her head against the steering wheel and she was yeah but it's sad and it's private they made up their mind that there's they had a meeting and decided Chris Brown jokes were verboten and it turns out he's a supreme a-hole the edict came down from the Trilateral Commission and the Illuminati that run the the the Jewish banks which dictate the comedy writing rooms there was an edict that just came down you were not allowed to make jokes about Caitlyn Jenner off limits and and it it happened like literally felt like in like a matter like a month and she and Caitlyn Jenner she's a piece of shit she's a Trump support she's a she's a Trump supporter she's a Republican she's a piece of shit I mean I don't like and the thing is my joke wasn't saying it was just supposed to be a stupid joke I wasn't judging and I would say that the beginning I was like I'm not I think it's fine I just the joke was basically I'll try and do this past that it was it was commenting on his reason for doing it was like kind of annoyed me like he was like I just feel like God got it wrong making making me a man not making me a woman I feel like on the inside I was supposed to be a woman and I was like you know no one's completely happy with who they are sometimes I feel like I'm not happy with who I am completely but sometimes I feel like you just have to accept the hand you're down like you know like I'm not going to be like I feel like God got it wrong not making me Brad Pitt you know like I just feel like I should be Brad Pitt and but if I got plastic surgery look like Brad Pitt people would think I was an idiot but if I get plastic surgery to look like Angelina Jolie I'm a hero is that what she said is that what she said yeah that's the joke like I'm like I wish yeah I wish I was different too but I just kind of have to like you know I it's like if I was like I just feel like on the inside I'm supposed to be a professional basketball player but like I'm not good people would be like you're not good at basketball I'll be like I know but I feel like I should be and the thing is like is this a stupid joke and no it's actually a funny joke no it's fine but it's not like it's not politically correct it's not politically correct but it's funny and it's not but it's not like super mean it's just kind of saying how like you know I don't I it was more than it was wasn't making fun of him doing it it was I was like do it but don't like give these reasons that I think are kind of ridiculous like just say I wanted to do that like don't put it on God like oh yeah God blew it you know like you know God's like yeah no I don't don't bring me into this like I made you this like don't you want to do it just do it I think which is it it annoyed me that people like got so mad about it you know like and I would find myself and I stopped doing the joke I would get in like arguments after a show so I was like dude I'm just like doing these are just jokes I don't know what who's so there's like 30 people here so she wasn't the first one to complain to you about that joke she was like I think she was um like maybe the third or four and I started it was with her I felt like culminated I was like but there's something weird here I can't do this joke anymore it's kind of like you're right like something changed in like because I was doing it for like months and people it was doing fine and then like something happened where it became like you know almost like the equivalent of like races like that's how people were looking at it like I think I told you I think I told you that night she's a jerk but you probably shouldn't do the joke it's not worth fighting that battle I think I said that to you I do remember you said somebody like don't even like fight her and I was like yeah you're right I'm not going to get a fight with her I'm like 20 years older than her what a like what a white and that's another there's I've gotten older I've especially in comedy I'm I kind of turned a corner where I I you know I used to get so mad about doing badly or like if an audience didn't like me and then I kind of finally like was like you know I'd like if you don't like it I don't really know to tell you like you know sorry like this isn't for everybody interesting so I think hang on for one second because I asked you about the personality of your peers at law school you went toe to toe with that millennial criticizing your joke I want to dial in on the personality type your and then I banged her here I just had good so uh well she is attractive she is hot yeah yeah did you enjoy arguing with her we did you get off I'm challenging her debating her and trying to make her feel less than beyond I really did it I really did it because um be honest I am I didn't like it because um it felt like kind of it felt like a personal attack like I said it felt like I was being accused of racism or something and I think that's why I was trying to defend my position but then I was how long did you I kind of just gave how long did I I don't know maybe like five minutes I kind of what happened was one of those things were I had met her and she was nice to me and then all of a sudden she was like lecturing me and I kind of was like in a fight I was kind of in a conversation then then I kind of was realizing that I was being insulted and kind of like challenged and when you know there's so many comes if I get challenged especially someone who I isn't doesn't really know what they're talking about then I get very like defensive and but no I and defensive I because this is that kind of one hang on for one second because I'm trying to zero in on the personality type that goes to law school in their forties somebody who doesn't know what somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about so says you you get defensive so you lash out not lash out but you fight back you defend yourself right I defend my position yeah and I think comedy trains you to do that comedy trains you to do that or but before you said you went into comedy because you were seeking justice so you were it was and I think and I think comedy makes you it sharpens that skill like you become good at defending yourself because you immediately are you can you have like the tools to come back at people and and win a situation you know what I mean so you're going to be you're right so you're going to be a lawyer you got into this argument with this millennial it ended how I think I just kind of was like I just kind of gave up I was like yeah all right so you were willing to say you're kind of well you were willing to say you're not worth getting upset about yeah and I didn't say I just kind of was like look I don't I think I even said like look I'm not I don't know I I wasn't trying to be offensive I just I thought it was a funny joke like I and then it just kind of diffused from it like I wasn't defending my position anymore so when you do that it's kind of like there's not much for them to go up against anymore once they can kind of feel you're not resisting anymore it's like very zen once there's no resistance the person kind of gives up they're like and I think she just kind of walked I think she was hosting so she had to go back into it can I ask you a personal question and you don't have to answer it okay okay your father is a lawyer correct he was yeah is he still alive he's still alive he's not a lawyer growing up did he win all the arguments no he didn't really are he didn't really get no arguments a lot was he willing to admit he was wrong you don't have you don't have to answer that question yeah he was no he was okay I remember specific times he's like apologize for being wrong okay and did he sometimes grill you like there'd be a dent in the living room the plaster broke would he get to now no he was not like that at all never he wasn't a my mom was was more my mom was more like that I think when he got home he was just tired and didn't want to get out anymore you know like if you're arguing all day or that's true I don't even know like I don't think you know I just worked at a firm I don't think that a lot of the the lawyers at the firm I worked at were like my boss was like totally chill and like you know never I never see he never had I never saw him get a fight with anyone and he was like maybe the most chill boss I've ever had I don't think they're all I mean some of them can be like that and I'm not even saying like I'm not shitting on the people I go to school with I'm just I think it's a it's like comedy and it's not the same personality but there's a personality type that is attracted to it like it's usually people who you know want to be right and think that they're kind of smarter than people and are they competitive yeah are they smarter or I think some of them I'm making a sweeping generalization about lawyers I think most of them are intellectually lazy and go to law school so they'll never have to pick up a book again that they go this is the last time I'm going to crack a book and no matter what happens in the future I'll be able to talk my way in or out of something no matter what the subject is art or jaywalking yeah and I would say like I went I went out with like a couple of women from law school and they were not easy you know it's a you know certain it was one of the hardest personality it's a lot of just type a personality type women who are very like I went out on a date with a girl from law school and she was totally wrong in the situation and would not admit she's wrong like literally and it was it was literally like the inauguration thing of like we had bigger crowds you know where you can see the picture of not bigger crowds and I was just and I finally like said to her and this is funny this is finally like set her off like where she I go she wouldn't stop arguing and I go and I was trying not to argue because I just was like look I don't want to and I was like you're gonna be a really good lawyer someday and she got so mad at that which I thought was kind of a compliment but I mean it was me saying like you just want to argue about everything so I think that's what I mean like there's like when I've dealt with with women not all the women but like certain when that the interactions I've had with women or law students it's very type a women who they women you know kind of want to be right already so add that on top of it it's just like someone who now has the tools to be right you're like oh my god like now they can make good argument well my friend and I'm kind of the worst for that because that's why I've had problems in relationships because I'm good at making argument before law school and when I would get to fight with a woman I would like make the point that they were wrong and they didn't like that you know what I mean because I didn't realize with women it doesn't matter that they're wrong you have to just be like oh you're right mm-hmm I have that I had that conversation with someone recently I was like you know what she did this and she was wrong and they're like yeah but she's a woman you can't just have to that's the whole thing okay so let's I have a lot of female listeners and I have a lot of male listeners and the cliche the stereotype is that women refuse to admit they're wrong now that is right guys to do that guys do guys also refuse to admit they're wrong right but it seems to be the thing guys complain about the most in private they will say that women are constitutionally unable to admit they're wrong I have a theory about that what's your theory I think women do admit they're wrong they just don't admit they're wrong to guys who think women can't admit they're wrong because they don't want to make you feel good in other words there's a certain type of man who thinks women won't admit they're wrong and if you're in a relationship with them they're not and it's falling apart they don't want to give anything up and they know that more than anything else in the world I mean I would hire a prostitute to come to my house she could keep her clothes on and spend an hour admitting she's wrong right wow that sounds like a good service for married guys yeah but I I think the I think the women know they're wrong you do that as a joke no I just said this to you oh you should do that as a joke I don't know I don't want to piss off the women I have a lot of women listeners and I don't want to piss them off and I do think the same way a guy who gets caught cheating on his wife will lie and say no I'm not cheating and look her straight in the eye and say honey this is I don't know what you're talking about I don't know who this woman with her lips around my penis is this is right I have no I and they will with a straight face and a clear conscience they will lie right into a woman's eyes and I think when a woman refuses to admit she's wrong to a certain type of guy it's kind of the same thing they know they're wrong but they want to lie to you because you're the type of guy who would get off on a woman admitting she's wrong I think that's true and I think I have come across as that guy a lot and especially in that situation the woman was completely right and it wasn't like a woman I was like in a relationship but I was like I had just met her I mean we had just kind of started hanging out and I was just kind of like can't you just admit that this was what you did was wrong and she wouldn't I don't know I mean I've had that a relationship I think also the other thing is like a lot of women are you know they're different there's degrees like some are more stubborn than others some will that they're wrong those are the ones that are more you know better communicating and those are the ones you're going to have a better relationship with the ones who if they are wrong and they know it and they're remorseful they will one of the things I think one of the things I've noticed one of the things I've noticed in relationships new relationships and I guess it would be a problem being a lawyer dating another lawyer but I have noticed that part of the mating ritual I believe is a witty back and forth between the man and the woman and it mirrors bad movies bad cinema bad screenwriting where there's like this witty bi-play and I have found myself saying you know this is like a Nancy Meyers movie in about 20 minutes it's going to get really boring I don't get off what's a Nancy Meyers movie you know I don't want you know but the point is is like everybody's got a witty line and it's there's nice back and forth and I mean after 20 minutes it's like okay you know what is this about and that's the point I'm making is that I don't that kind of a relationship gets boring past I think topping one another and trying to prove the other person wrong there's that there's a playful teasing that is fun for a while but eventually you know you know it builds that can only go so far I was I dated a woman once and we had that it was kind of like we would kind of like fight all the time but about like not like little things and it was kind of funny but then like you know it gets after a while like the fights come they become real because someone gets really mad so before you get this pain before you go this has been really interesting this has been really interesting before you go do you like making people feel stupid I'm just curious honestly no but I I have taken pleasure in it when it's someone who's like challenging me I think it's like like human nature like if someone's coming at you I'm not confrontational but if someone confronts me I like to be able to beat that person and make them feel stupid it's like if you're in a doing a show and someone's heckling you you want to shut them down and make them feel stupid so in those situations yes and that's what I meant that you know before I always would be in situations where maybe you know people would try and make me embarrass me or make me feel stupid and then like comedy was like empowering myself and right it trained me and gave me the tools when I was in those situations to not be afraid and to win and I remember specifically the first time I was did you know like the whole thing you get in situations where someone says something like you and it's embarrassing and people are there and you don't know what to say because you're scared and then like three days later you think of something to say you're like oh I should have said that I remember I'd been doing comedy like two years and I had a situation like that where a girl I did a show and they didn't like it was like an open mic it's always a girl it's always a girl yeah well I was doing an open an open mic and I did a show I think I was making fun of someone who would gone on earlier who was like horrible like I was just making Joe and the woman who it was like these hippie-ish women running the open mic and they grabbed the mic for me they were like we don't like that and I was like what like you can't like not like I you can't like tell me not to you take make jokes about something and then um people were mad at me like in the audience that I sat down and this girl was like yelling clapping and she was like whatever and I was right next to her now she was like whatever he's not funny anyway and all my friends were there because they were at the show and I go what did you say and and she goes you're not funny and so now everyone in the room is staring at me and I turned and I you know I'm having that moment and I go well you're not attracted wow I think I gotta wow yeah and I'm not trying to be a jerk but I mean and everyone in the room died laughing when I said that and I go I go you know but I'm not just gonna say that to you unprovoked like that's really rude and again like she and she wasn't even that unattractive but that wasn't the point it was like I was in a situation that if I had not done stand-up and been in those like trenches I never would have been able to handle and so I've been in situations I mean you've probably had it too you get situations of people like just in the everyday world and they don't know that you're a comedian and they try and like challenge you and then you kind of like come back and they're like whoa that guy's fast well what she did is what you did is I have to say to you this I don't agree with you first I have three quick questions I want to ask you I don't agree with you by the way on some things however about that well yeah in a way because here's what I thought when you said that if a woman humiliated me in public and said you're not funny in the back of my mind my primal instinct is you telling me I'm not funny is as hurtful as me calling you ugly or fat that's the so when you said that I started laughing because that's where you know my my evil head went well if I want to get even with her I'll call her ugly because that's that's just as bad as saying I'm not funny I mean because they do you know you know and people know yeah yeah go ahead and I'm not different that's not like a really clever I'm not saying like I was I'm not defending it really but I will say like even because I've been doing comedy for a little while it wasn't like I just was like well you're ugly I turned it into like phrasing that she had used against me but in a in a you know a way to be mean you're not funny and I was like well you're not this you're not like and I'm not again like I'm just saying like something had happened where I wasn't afraid to defend myself and I you know I told the story to people like you really mean and I'm like look dude I didn't provoke this someone said something really insulting to me if they could have just not been rude and yelled at a stranger you know what I mean I mean like I feel like if you start yelling at strangers insults you're kind of opening yourself up to things yeah let me ask you a question I have I'm playing with an idea here let me ask you a question if you say to a woman I may be getting myself into trouble here I'm just thinking out loud okay it already sounds like trouble if you say to a woman I think you're hideous I think you're the ugliest person I've ever seen in my life that is one of the worst things especially now that a man could say to a woman right yeah I mean it's pretty it's horrible yeah and I think in this day and age it's even worse but if you said to the woman let me explain to you what I meant by your being hideous a humunculus somebody who I can't even look at because you're so grotesque your ugliness comes from within you are a seething cauldron of neuroses and bitterness and it just flows from your insides to your epidermis to your skin to your outer layers your ugliness is so dense and thick inside of you can't help but show itself through your personality it's just like on a first tender day or something and I but and I if you said you know if somebody saw a picture of you they wouldn't know how ugly you are because they didn't hear you talk she'd go oh is there ugly on the inside and she I have a feeling she'd go oh in that case then it's not an insult right it wouldn't be an insult because who cares what you're like on the inside that's not what anything right if you say now again I'm probably going to get a lot of pushback but if you told somebody they're ugly on the inside they'd be okay with it but if you say they're ugly on the outside you might as well be Robert Blake Phil Specker and OJ Simpson combined well it's kind of like that Seinfeld where I think some George finds out that his girlfriend like thinks he's ugly or something she's like oh I like George which looks aren't that important to me and they're like what does it matter like she doesn't think you're attractive she likes you he's like I'd rather she hated me I thought I was attracted and I mean that's a really good like because it's very true like that is how people think like it's kind of like they'd rather have people think they're attracted but like hated them you know what I mean because it doesn't really matter like when someone's like oh well they're you know it's like oh well they're really beautiful on the inside it's kind of like yeah big deal yeah but with that story with I guess the point of the story when I said to that that girl is like I was saying that like I had stand up and I had gotten better at like defending myself in situations where I'd been in the situations a lot where people said insulting things and I didn't you know I was too scared to say anything because it's a but all right so so answer some quick answer some quick questions here as a comedian on the road have you ever had a heckler who was heckling you and you were able to shut that person up and you won and they were embarrassed yeah I have and I and to be honest it didn't make me feel that good because I felt bad why because I like I don't like making people feel bad you know what I mean but I've done it if I've been in a situation where I'm cornered and someone's like challenging me but the only problem with that is I've done that but then like when you do that with hecklers and they lose they don't stop you know what I mean because they don't care that they lose now they feel like they have to like ruin the show you know even though they're not saying anything clever or you know it's very rare that someone heckles you and then you just okay hang on hang on so you're not answering my question so answer my questions okay okay I'm deposing you now okay yeah all right have you ever been in a situation on stage where somebody was heckling you and you got the best of that person you won and they were quiet for the rest of the show without management having to throw them out or they're making a scene or demanding their money back yeah yeah okay that's the answer were you able to then get back to your act and get laughs did you find that shutting up a heckler was more entertaining to the audience the blood sport of decapitating a heckler was more entertainment than your act now I feel like a lot of times the rest of the crowd just wants to hear your act okay you know they most of the time the hecklers don't I mean the rest of the crowd they don't like the hecklers they're just ruining it for everyone okay so you shut the heckler up and it felt good yeah I've had it where I've I've shut a heckler down but usually it's like a heckler that isn't like an evil person they're just maybe saying things and then you'll kind of say something that's funnier than them and it means to build up and then they kind of like accept it you know and then did it feel like justice did it feel like justice um it felt like uh being chat not I wouldn't say justice like being challenged and and stepping up to the plate and showing that you could like that you that they shouldn't have it's kind of like showing someone like you should not have messed with me which I like that feeling of power of like all right okay now being like oh wow that guy really is not someone to mess with yes okay have you ever had a female heckler yes uh yeah yeah have you ever bad have you ever won with a female heckler and by winning I mean you were being heckled by a woman in the audience you gave a couple of rejoinders the audience laughed because you were shutting her up and then she decided to sit quietly for the rest of the evening and not complain um yeah I've had I've had that like but but our female hecklers our female hecklers different than male I I've had one of the worst heckling experiences I ever have and it was um I didn't say I didn't say anything mean they just were like they were talking really loudly and I I kind of asked them not to talk and then they started getting really mad and I again this was like two years ago and I was trying not to get mad on stage like about things and the girl kept talking and and I was like why are you so angry I was like look you're like a good-looking woman like you should be you know you should be in a better mood and then she got really mad at that like that became an insult like that she said that she was like I can't believe you have I can't believe you just said I'm good-looking and I was like why is that a bad I don't know why that well that is bad I learned that the hard way but apparently but I was doing it only to like appease like I wanted to stop the situation but I didn't want to be like hey shut up you I was trying to be like hey like come on like yeah I was trying to be cool about it and then they just kept it was a thing where then they took that and ran with that I was being insulting oh I learned the hard way I learned the hard way you know that I'm a dinosaur and I better change I a couple years ago I'm ashamed to tell you this but somebody brought me up on stage I said how about a hand for Diane isn't she great and very pretty and I said you know you're very pretty and she said to me rather you think I'm funny and it was as though somebody it was like a gut punch and I couldn't I couldn't recover from it and I realized yeah it's kind of wrong it's it's it made it made me look old is what it did because it I'm from a generation where and I think you are too where telling a woman she's pretty is a compliment in many ways these women perceive it and rightfully so as patronizing as dominating them they don't care if you think they're pretty or not that's a form of control and I I get that and if I but in this situation it was it was women who were being insanely overtly rude in a situation where I was trying to like handle the situation in a very polite way and they were just over and over being rude it wasn't like I was just like hey baby you're really hot I was like hey like you know you're like a you're a traffic woman like you should know because she was like mad at me and like scowling at me yeah and I'm like why are you so angry like you know it's just you're I was like you're young attractive like you know just enjoy your life and uh it wasn't just I don't think well I would say as a feminist I get it as a feminist I would say you're young and attractive as a feminist I would say oh you're saying because in a few years I'll be old and unattractive I think I did finally get mad and say like that I finally go hey you know what like uh why don't you call it like you know you're gonna really uh things are really gonna change in about 15 years I think I started to get mean like you know because I you know people don't understand me when you know it like when you're up there it's like and people are attacking you I mean you come to a point you you you have to defend yourself you know like I see I never got I never had that in all honesty I've never had that problem because my I'm being serious my act is so horrific when people get upset I agree with them I have I think you have you're witty and my act is just my being a repulsive human being so when I cross a line and people let me know I go yeah I I kind of agree with you on that but I do find that when I was starting out female hecklers always got under my skin most comics if you ask them describe your worst show when you snapped and you couldn't finish it's usually a a female heckler who got under their skin for obvious reasons I think yeah I think the worst one I ever had was a male I had a guy start a fight with me and um a fist fight no but just like it got really bad like he started saying really insulting things and you know again I had this I had this with a guy once he was talking the whole time and he was like 24 he was a good looking guy and I said the same thing I'm like dude you're like he was like yelling on like dude you're like a young good looking guy like why are you so angry so like I would do with either so you know I mean I did it on both ends I wasn't like hey honey you're such a good pretty I was in both situations I was trying this is what I would do in the past is like and I started doing more I would kind of like try if someone was being shitty I would kind of like give them some chances and I would you know try not to be nice I try to be nice and then when they stopped I was like Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse where I was like just be nice until it's time not to be nice anymore you know like sometimes people just you kind of try to be nice and they won't let you be nice and then you have to like get me and the the unfortunate thing with me is like I could be really nice but I can be really mean if I and I think comedy trains you because you know in comedy you know how to size people up fast and you know what's going to hurt them so you know what I mean so I can get really mean and I don't like to but sometimes have you ever won have you ever won an argument have you ever been at a party and gotten into a political discussion or just a discussion and have you ever won an argument No I mean that the Louis C.K. has a bit about that right he's like you know whenever wins an argument no one's ever like okay yeah you're right that's the end of the argument you win like in my mind I'm like it's clear that I'm that I'm right and they aren't admitting it but and is that an American trait I thought it was just like a New York trade well I look at what's going on with Hillary and Trump and Stolen and nobody admits nobody ever admits that they're wrong and I know especially now not not him but but at least with the Kathy Griffin thing at least like the left and liberals were like owned up like well that was not she should not have done that you don't see that on the other end like whatever Trump did the right the right he's never like yeah he shouldn't have done that or it's like well what yeah that's fine at least with the Kathy Griffin thing she admitted it was wrong a lot of people on the left admitted it was wrong nobody like that that's so easy to just go after Kathy Griffin she held up his severed head with blood coming out so what that wasn't a death threat everybody it's so easy to say oh my god that's terrible she wasn't saying let's do that to Donald Trump she was making some kind of artistic point he's a despicable human being she wasn't calling for the guillotine she was just holding up his head and this it's an easy thing it's a knee jerk response she crossed a line we can all agree that that's crossing a line meanwhile he's pulling out of a the Paris climate accords no I agree I didn't like I wasn't angry at that at all I mean I I mean I kind of what annoyed me the most about it was how quickly she apologized so profusely I think that must have come from some kind of like government kind of scared her or like secret service or something because she apologized so fast it was a kabuki move it was a kabuki move we all really I'm curious because to me it was I'm so sorry I'm so sorry CNN just fired me I'm so sorry that they fired me maybe I can get my job back if I say I'm so sorry and we all watch knowing that she really wasn't sorry and she would do it again if she could but because it cost her money and it got the wrong reaction she's sorry but she's not sorry if she hurt Trump's feelings we all know that she's not a threat to Donald Trump we all know that that nobody is going to sneak over the fence with a guillotine and drag Donald Trump out of his office and behead him this is a kabuki move no and it was it was ridiculous that they were like oh my son thought it was really me I mean that was kind of like really your son thinks like that you got beheaded by this comedian second to last question and you don't have to answer this you don't have to answer this question have you ever body slammed another man have you ever punched another man you don't have to answer that question after the age of 18 have you ever punched a man after the because I was about to say when I was young like when I was younger I got into fights yeah I don't want to I don't want to answer that I got into like scuffles but you got into a cut I think really hard right I've got to like some scuffles you know like situations but nothing really hardcore were you do you think I feel like I've acted my way out of a lot of fights have you ever been in a fight a fist fight where it was a decisive victory for somebody in other words there was no you know somebody went down and it was Ali standing over sunny list and saying get up get up come on get up have you ever been in no no never I've never been in a fight where it's like oh that guy got his ass kicked or that guy kicked his ass so you've never been in a fight where you kick somebody's ass or you got your ass kicked no I can't say do you think there's any value I'm just throwing this out there because older generations have been in fist fights now everybody has a gun now you know the whole thing but is there any value to men getting into fist fights and there's a decisive victory well I think that's what the whole like like fight club was exploring that that notion because they that was kind of they were saying that that generation of men had never experienced had never gotten in a fight so it was a generation of men who had kind of all been emasculated and never really experienced something that that men had experienced for years as part of being a man you know so I think in fight club they were saying I need to get punched and punch because it's the only way I can feel alive the same way women cut themselves that's the only way they can feel alive right but it was it was commenting like the consumer culture where it was all about just men like buying things and they weren't really men they weren't truly men anymore before you go I don't know I don't know how much I agree with that I mean like I like that movie and I like that book but see I think there's a problem with millennials all getting this prize to show up where nobody loses so then if nobody loses nobody's wrong how are you going to win a debate how are you going to win an argument how are you going to have a relationship part of a relationship is forgiveness understanding saying I'm sorry I'm wrong if you are a millennial I'm not saying they're all like this I'm just saying the cliche is everybody gets a prize for showing up and don't damage this kid's ego yeah what everyone's a winner everybody's a winner well if everybody's a winner then how do you how do you succeed if everybody's a winner how do you arrive at a truth in a debate in a in a in a court room if everybody's right it's gonna be well I think what happens is they I think that's what's happening now they're growing they're getting a certain age where the world doesn't operate like that and they not all of them but some of them that have been raised that way don't know how to handle it so they they think they're preparing them for the world by building up their self-esteem but in in reality they've never dealt with adversity so the world is hard and you know they do kind of like there is a lot of times like winners and losers so when they're experiencing that after you know the real world they're kind of like why don't understand this doesn't make any sense to me because I mean I everyone experiences I experienced when I got in the world I had an idea of the world you know the world didn't care about my idea of what yeah I wanted the world to be I call it I call it millennial psychosis because when they came of age we had the great recession we had 9 11 9 you know the terrorist attack we had the war in Iraq they did grow up with a lot of adversity but somehow they were trained to believe that the world is gentle and and I call it the millennial psychosis where they don't see the horror that surrounds them and like that like that like that comic who criticized you she doesn't understand that the audience loathes her and then she's not entertaining it's psychotic that she can't hear the silence yeah well that also might be a young thing too no matter what because I remember we're gonna win up my you know generation X but we would we were in our 20s we were just I'm generation X targets oh okay generation X nice because I'm old see let everybody let's let's just pause acknowledge that I made that joke people now can roll their eyes and shake their head and bewilderment and continue so you're generation X before but I just remember we were when we were in our 20s we were kind of the target of you know the slackers and you what are you guys doing and but I feel like in in your 20s that's just kind of a a thing it's different for you know it changes because of like technology and what people experience but a lot of people in their 20s kind of get flack no matter what because they're turned to be kind of the whipping boys yeah of like because I remember Jenna it was I got Gen X guys what are you guys doing just so lazy and tiled and um I just so it just seems like that's what's happening with millennials and yeah yeah but they're just get it's just their turn to get it what kind of you know people just just yeah people are jealous they're young they're young yeah so what kind of law do you want to practice well I say I'm you know when I first went into I wanted to do intellectual property you know because I kind of wanted to maybe work in entertainment since I had worked in entertainment for so long so I'm still uh I'm still like on that path like trademark law next year I'm taking they have this like clinic for the whole year that I'm taking for trademark law so I'm interested in that right the only thing is those are kind of hard to get those jobs but we'll see all right working for the government I'm working for the this will be less I'm working for the government this summer and they have like a trademark department so maybe I'll do that well this has been fantastic it really has been it's been fun and it's has it's been interesting oh yeah well you're living my fantasy Tom McCaffrey is a comedian and a law school student and you're going to be performing at the Broadway where are you performing next tomorrow I'm at this place Black Cat it's this like place down in the east village on uh Ludlow I believe and then Broadway Saturday like in the upstairs room well you're a great comedian and I'll tell you what thank you here's what I'm going to do I'm going to rob a liquor store when you graduate from law school and pass the bar just to be your first client oh perfect and maybe I will maybe I'll even commit a hate crime just for you just to get you some business that'll be perfect this was great the tape will have to be destroyed is there anything such as comedian comedian client privilege I don't know thank you thank you so much now there isn't okay thanks a lot man thank you this was great come back come back come back yeah please thanks for having me thank you Tom bye man bye bye bye bye thanks for listening remember to friend me on facebook follow me on twitter do all 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