 If you listen to this podcast and see the video, I think Marc and I, we touch upon some amazing journeys, if you will, from stories around the world, whether we are going to Uganda, to New York, where we're happening in Europe, where we live both, we live both in the same city, we have similar thoughts, but I really learned a lot from your inspiring questions and from I wish the listeners have the time to spend, to, you know, engage and see their potential and take a little bit more like mood shots and learn about butterflies and how a metamorphosis of our world can basically lift us all up. Today I have a very special guest, Harold Nighthark. He's a curator and CEO of Future I.O. Institute, which I'm also a faculty member of and we've been friends for a long time, so I don't know how much depth and substance I'm going to get into as biography because it's absolutely very long, but Harold is passionate about meaning and technology, the future of exponential technologies and its opportunities for society, economy and entrepreneurs, especially in Europe. Together with a select group of inspiring futurists, faculty, leading innovators and creative minds, he has launched the Future I.O. Institute as a new platform and community for European innovation leaders to help co-create a vision for desirable futures, very near and dear and passionate to my heart. He also founded and started M.Love as created an unconventional event series that brings together innovators and inspiring events at amazing locations around the world, mainly Europe, since 2009 and throughout his career he has been a digital pioneer, a serial startup founder in Europe and in the United States. He's published two books, one I have here, Moonshots for Europe. I'm also in this book, a fabulous book and we'll touch a little bit on the story of that and Lifestyles of Mobility and Harold has a copy there, he can hold up as well. Yeah, beautiful white book, Lifestyle of Mobility, written together with acclaimed innovators and change makers. Harold is a Singularity University alumni and has spoken on innovation at events all around the world including KEDEX, Hong Kong, Hamburg, Marrakesh, spoken at South by Southwest Austin, Texas, Singularity U Summit in Netherlands and in Germany, wired the next Mobile World Congress in four years from now in Barcelona and as a speaker at numerous corporate and executive events all around the world. Harold is an advisor to the United Nations Climate Change Secretariat on Resilient Frontiers. He also as well as Future Iowa Institute helped usher in some amazing things with resilience frontiers and Moonshot thinking and modeling and is also a member of the Digital Economy Work Group of the World Economic Forum and Davos. So I probably have left some things out, but it's kind of like for me as well, there's a lot to go into, we're not young youngsters anymore, we've been around the block and seen our fair share. Did I leave anything out? First of all, thank you so much Mark for having me. It's a pleasure and being part of your world has been a tremendous ride for me. You have helped me and the Institute in having amazing introductions to especially the UN and some of your friends there, so it's just a privilege to hang out with you. Thank you, Harold. You're a good friend and I do it because I believe in you and I believe in future IO and your visions of what you create, so I'm glad to have you along. It's a lot funner journey when we can do it together with people you trust and you love and who you can create beautiful things with. So I thank you. That kind of leads into we do have a history together. I think we're going on 10 years now that we've known each other and last four years we've been doing some active events and things together, trying to work more and more together. The UN and World Economic Forum obviously are two big ones, but we had a great ride in 2019 was it or 2018? We went to Songdo. 2019 we went to Songdo in the first quarter of the year for the National Adaptation Plan Expo and Resilience Frontiers Workshop. Tell us a little bit about what your experience was, that your viewpoint being drawn into that experience and how it was and what your thoughts even about resilience frontiers. I don't think a lot of people know what it is or where it's going. I think that is a tremendous topic. We all should spend more time on this. Obviously there's sustainability, United Nations sustainability goals and well from your connections and we could invite some speakers of the UN to our future events. We had meetings in Bonn where actually the world headquarter of the fight against climate change is in Bonn, Germany. So who would have thought? It's probably a group of I would figure less than 500 people and I could go on about that like well isn't that like the best 20,000 scientists in the world all hanging out together and doing good things? Well it's 500 people but from those there's amazing people in there who help the global dialogue and so they helped invite us, you, me and a couple of our friends from the faculty for facilitation as well as a futurist who is in Korea from our group Benjamin and we could spend a week there on the Global Adaptation Week where people from especially member states, so politicians, policymakers, but especially in our group we had about 100, 100 plus people which spent a whole week on mootrot thinking and what was so striking is well first of all they invited us to lead this workshop together with people from the University of Hoeningen and the Netherlands on basically mootrot thinking and a slash over to future literacy if you will and it was so fascinating to see how they say oh innovation is a cool thing it's not only for nerds there's something new about you know thinking around different corners cross-pollinating ideas and maybe we should apply that also to policy making and you know you would think as let's say a citizen isn't that what people do since 20 years I mean we all know these trilogists and you know there's institutes for future thinking also around the world since a couple of times especially in Silicon Valley but you know we were very privileged in that sense to really have sort of a first time that they kind of opened up to us and a group of these you know hundred people from around the world which were invited very diverse from architects to you know artists or rainforest warriors let's say in a good sense meaning replantation and it was just an amazing view to see how we could you know enlighten basically a room but basically let the group figure out where they want to go what are different ideas learn from each other and that for me is always the magic if you give some people insights so you are amazing keynote talk to steer them up and you know kind of rattle the cage and there were other people skip insights but most of all we help you know we guide them through a workshop and thinking on another level on another level a little bit higher and a little bit more crazy or dashes if you will not crazy but what if this would happen and most people don't really see so far still let's say the impact of technology and how some of the things which I heard this since 10 years nothing is happening and then within a year or so all of a sudden stuff explodes so that's exponential curve as you know is something that is very foreign to a lot of people so once you but once you put them in a room and say well this is the room where all of this is allowed all of a sudden you see that like this room literally expands and you know it's part of a center of the universe for at least that week and it was really rewarding that this was a beginning of the journey so the resilient frontiers so you can also look it up at the UNFCCC website is a new journey which the climate change secretariat and bond is going on and basically say well we are already on a journey for the 10 year solving the you know STGs and can we solve climate crisis in 2030 well there is a little bit of a let's say potential that we might not reach them so how can we start a policy process and getting insights to these policymakers that well what is the program after 2030 well you know if we either not achieve it or if we reach a state which is hopefully has a you know fruitful way of going from there now to the next level well what is the next level and these discussions take time the opinions shape shaping takes time bringing people and opinions in is a long process and then if you have an opinion then you have to you know go inside the UN up and down then you have to go to all the member states up and down so all that process when you know maybe there's a new COP I don't know 35 or so in 10 years from now when a new idea is ratified all this process maybe takes five to ten years so we are in this process and we've been invited to continue some of these discussions and well you know COP 26 in Glasgow is not happening this year so we're looking forward to next year and hopefully it gives us even us and everybody the world basically more time to say well let's make it more meaningful because we have seen that everybody knows the Paris agreement but after that there was it's not every year that you have like this oh amazing breakthrough and now everybody's doing it they say oh we sign it and then there's three years of well I didn't know that we had to start right away it's somehow sometime down the row yeah exactly so and the citizen it's sometime frustrating like why you know it's happening so it's very rewarding to say okay there's a little bit of a foot in the door to help shape this process and have you know a humble insights of you know what technology and even behavioral shifts and new business models can maybe can we adapt that in a positive way towards you know desirable futures including the sustainability goals for you know our kids basically and you know the rest of our lifetime on this beautiful planet that is so nicely depicted behind you yeah it's been depicted behind us both so your strong focus is Europe my strong focus is the over look of overview effect or the cosmic perspective I believe you know this is our World Bank it's not some physical location it's what you see behind me and behind you that's where we get all our resources from that that was so eloquently said and and I really need to kind of hone in and you normally you don't even discuss maybe we we might not make it because the the premises of the sustainable development goals and resilience frontiers is actually with that in mind we have achieved all 17 sustainable development goals the the 2030 agenda and then there's a nice infrastructure or springboard so to say to to 2050 to spring off into this resilient frontiers this resilient desirable futures which was really the moonshot or vision we we tried to instill that everyone there let's reach this let's start to plan and and it was it was a real big success and in November at COP 25 in Madrid which was also a very chaotic COP because at first it was supposed to be in Santiago chili we're going to do something there then it got cancelled because of all sorts of reasons and moved to Madrid and it was like put on last minute and kind of didn't turn out that good but right beforehand there was the turnover to all the interagency's of resilience frontiers to all the UN interagency's to to take it over for the next years and for us to escort and accompany them on this process and then they launched at the COP 25 this resilience lab which is was one of the coolest boosts and and things at the COP 25 which was it was a real real neat thing and yeah and I spoke there and I think you you you also since then have had a couple meetings with UNF triple C and and also with our contacts there as well so there's some wonderful things going on there but that's not I mean that that's just one of many projects kind of humanitarian yeah I have to jump in because you know just the last couple of days I saw a graph and you know why is it so important to work on these things and I mean we have been around we have seen the greens you know and and the demonstrations I don't know 20 years ago in the 80s and so on so forth so but it has been very silent the last 20 years it almost felt that we have been going down the let's say oh it's a good life you know capitalism is great and so on we all grow up and we don't have to really look at the at nature and and future thinking so much in regards to the impact but I think if you I saw this graph and this really struck me that if we don't do anything we will probably end up in a four degree world in 2100 basically in 80 years from now and 2100 if you like 2100 that like so sci-fi it sounds Star Trek it sounds like well that is like at least maybe you know five generations from me because this is so unimaginable but if you look at this number and and I looked at the chart so basically your chart behind you and all of Spain here behind me Spain Southern France and Italy is basically already part of the Sahara in 80 years from now if we don't do anything this is a Sahara in I mean we both live in Hamburg we never meet in Hamburg but we both live here so it's like you know eight hours down by drive you will be on the edge of the Sahara excuse me and that means that um you know it's unlivable in 80 years from now 80 years from now that means I mean my daughters are 22 and 25 they will still be alive and my future grandkids and your grandkids my grandkids yes they will live already in the world which is inhabitable in a lot of nice places where we want to go and you know vacation right now I wish this year I could go but well this year is not in the cars with other reasons so it's so I mean it's the mind works perfectly in basically pushing all of these knowledge aside and it's very hard to grasp you know future thinking the the idea of well what's beyond the next 18 months you know we obviously we see that we can be surprised within a week or two from you know life-changing events we touch upon maybe that later how you know in the world we live in right now but it's you know most people have is like oh my future is well next year I finally will go on vacation because this year is not and maybe the lease of the car is off and maybe you know there's a family event a wedding of the you know aunt or the daughter or something like that and that's sort of the times when then well and then if I you know basically stop working you know I'm retirement then that's another life but everything in between is sort of you know GUI if you will and I think we have to all be futurists you know and we are all futurists we are all futurists with every decision we make as a consumer every decision we make as a citizen to vote and every you know decision we make whether we spend five minutes more on that letter or request in a corporate environment like oh you know somebody claimed we should be better in you know sustainability and maybe our the smoke from our tower up there should be not diesel should be something else so you can either push it aside and say yeah let's do it next year or you say well no okay I think this is the time the time is clicking ticking and that's I mean what I love about your talk so much that you make this very vivid in the big pictures and videos and atomic bombs going off but literally something which has to strike much more and that's I mean I think we also have to become all more political if you will we have to discuss this not only at our you know France tables but we have to engage more and I mean we see what's happening if we vote for politicians who are maybe on the western side in the Americas right now not doing a good job and people are more complacent and you know should I vote or not nothing is happening well no your vote counts and well I can go on and on but I felt you know obviously this little addition of thinking sustainable has been part of my life a long time but it has not been so explicit like now as part of the future Institute and with you know again the friendships I owe you and the introductions to this world because I think we can you know technology people have been driving the whole way for the last you know two decades or three since 30 years and say okay faster higher better cheaper and so on and so forth and we have to bring this back in the balance and you know that's basically what my passion is we really have to just put it no that's fine we I'm glad you did so there I don't want to do the doom and gloom and we're behind that we're behind the eight ball we're behind on on some actions in some respects but also at the beginning of this year as you were also on the the road to Davos and did DoD and things and we we we kind of saw that now we've taken some steps and placed our feet firmly on this exponential roadmap to achieving the goals and that really hasn't ended it's only continued and there's been some real positive things that you know that I wanted to touch on as well I wanted to go more into some of the other projects because the UN isn't the only one that you do you do a lot of other really positive projects around the world one is a promise hub and you've done some some others with your container project a while back and so you you've always been in this direction one where the other to help and get back into to ease global suffering and kind of help solve our global grand challenges in one way or another which I I think is very noble because you've you've kind of went into we've got to act in that I'm going to throw this is a perfect time to throw in some things that we've just discussed before that is important for for our listeners I think I think you know that you know if we're wondering if sustainability or environmental social governance or the sustainable development goals are a better business model or if that's the future that that gets us to 2030 then really during this pause all's we have to do is look towards some really indicators if you're talking to a board if you're talking to your clients who you advise it's always comes down to profits and money what do you tell the shareholders what are we going to say and well the proof is in this look towards the new york stock has changed the nasdaq the s and p 500 the s and p global stocks europe 600 benchmark collar capital the niki index the goldman sacks and hb hs bc research reports and i could probably go on for many many more not only the last quarter of last year the first quarter of this year and moving into the next quarter um sustainable index funds lost less than convention conventional index funds seven out of ten sustainability sustainable equity funds finished in the top halves of their conventional index funds um also in the top half of their morning star categories and 24 out of 26 environmental social and governance titled index funds outperform their closest conventional counterparts the proof is in the money public publicly traded companies who have taken this divestment or sustainability seriously seem to significantly outperform markets across various geographies fossil fuels are truly stranded assets and golden sacks says the only other commodity looking as precarious as oil is livestock so esg risk factors leave companies really exposed and vulnerable and so um it's nice that we have warm hearts and ethics and we can see the future that is sustainable but really i don't know if you agree to this doesn't have always come down to our clients or those who we consult or we work with is do they have the budget is there a return for them immediately or quickly by doing this um here's the proof right and just just just one respect um one one other one that you will probably mention that i want to ask you about have you ever heard earth overshoot day or me speak about that at all so there there's the biggest proof uh coming up in another week or so no last year it was july 29th was earth overshoot day the day we went beyond our finite resources and because of this pause this great reset this this thought that got moved up to august 22nd so we almost gained 32 something days unbelievable right so so um there's proof all all around us and um you know i i really didn't want to get into that that quickly but that that that was where you're going and the positive results that we're seeing from that that everybody's been waiting for where can we see it now okay that we've had enough excuses we've seen the results it's a better business system let's do it and going back now to to to what i was asking you is tell us about promise hub or maybe some of these other projects you you've been working on and the positive things that have happened over the years and then we're going to get into a little bit more the the the great pause and reset that we've had and what what you've experienced um i'd love to delve into these aspects i think there's a i have to start zooming back please please do that for 12 years yeah because in 2008 i was the first time at burning man and whoever was at burning man knows exactly if you were there the first time in the desert like eight hours off of san francisco somewhere in nevada it is such an amazing feeling of a community of you know culture of art of it's a different world for one week you were you know in 2008 it was literally also you're offline you're in the desert nothing happens there they actually had to have their own rig for communication and so now it's instagram all over the world so that the it's a little bit different but it changed so much my life that i basically started em love as a community for you know innovation within my industry which was mobile by the time and this was going on a you know exponential curve but i felt well we have to have some sort of community sense in our industry that we can exchange ideas and be more you know vulnerable if you will but more open in a way so i started that uh whether it was really some good friends and who nudged me say now why don't you do it you know you know so many people and so it started small always in nice locations that's castles um i have a thing for castle i do too and the first time uh basically i so i gathered some friends from a mobile industry and i said well i think we should do something different here at the castle there's actually not a good wi-fi there's you know an electricity was even spotty it's south of berlin now it's really nice but um it was early day so in i was in basalona speaking to a friend and said i wish i had a container was like a solar panel and we can bring you know power in and show how mobile really not only our cell phones are but how mobile the world is you said yeah actually i own part of shares of a company like that why don't we bring a container so on the very first amlav um confestival was a mix between let's say festival ideas and a little bit of burning man and a conference um so we had this container running our wi-fi with solar panels and the wind turbine and uh so from that moment on containers became sort of a theme and um a year two years later we had an empty container and we said well you know what if we can develop a school in the box so this is an empty container an empty vessel for ideas so we had workshops running with you know i had um people visual artists from america imported which i met at south by and has been a fantastic group of people which is so rewarding to be part of um so we had this school in the box idea and a friend of mine arpa um he shares the same hair dresser from finnberg i'm building um you know a school in a box basically on a mobile phone his company funsy is amazing with uh and very engaging in africa in uh you know e-learning mobile learning idea and um so we had some of these ideas and they became sort of you know part of a back burner i was like yeah one of those days okay so this then a couple of years later 2015 all of a sudden well first of all you know part of this container idea we brought a container to a fair in basalona which we helped start four years from now and advising the fair of basalona and the catalonian government so to say it was a very good ride as well and um so we had always containers in basalona we had a cool booth it was nice and i always dreamt about a campus of saying well why don't we have a couple of containers ideally south of basalona in the sun and have sort of a you know hippie collective of people now we would call it co-working state and um so doing that we had this in our mind and then um we actually started to build instead of basalona we built it in hamburg so 2015 part of a smart city initiative we started to build a container campus it was like 33 containers with some startups you know mobility started and um then you know summer of 2014 the climate crisis basically became the migration crisis became a lot of refugees running towards north and also hanging out in hamburg and with a friend from cisco we basically so kind of long story short said okay like why don't we build a container and a container clinic because one of the things people need is health you know checking of the dehydrated i mean some had you know wounds from different dramas from either from syria and so on so we said okay let's enable a container within two weeks um let's say no it was it was actually six weeks but four weeks we had to wait for the physical container once a physical container was there within two weeks we built a clinic in there and then it was gifted to the city of hamburg and the university clinic and one of the clues was to bring in not only let's say all the hygiene and you know the furniture but also a terminal where we could have more than 50 languages within a video terminal so telemedicine if you will five years ago and it was great impact what this first container actually found its way to samos where we brought it to a refugee camp there which is often unfortunately in in tv when it's burning or overflowing um another one is in libanon where i had the privilege to walk into you know a refugee camp which is a hundred million people sorry one million people uh beka valley you know i don't know 20 miles from syria very i don't know another story um but there's like two containers at least there which are active and there's has been then 10 donated uh for hamburg so now the container has been in there and uh through a friend uh when i was at singularity global summit in the u.s we could present an idea of the clinic and then a friend now friend and then said uh you know davie approached me and said hey can we not do a school in a container i said ah school in a box well there was this whole idea of course we can do it um so sometimes i think that's a little bit of a learning you have an idea and it's a marathon you know yes sometimes ideas are quick and you can do lean and sprint and you know within two weeks amazing stuff sometimes it takes just five years or more and um so he was amazed by the idea and he helped um you know co-fund an initiative which is called promise up because of you know there's a whole story why the name because we met a girl uh in libanon called promise um which was in the camp so we built a school and looked for a location where we want to build the first pilot school and uh we found through a friend mike in nakibale which is one of the oldest refugee camps in uganda i think uh it's more than 50 years old and um there's a hundred thousand people there um we built this house first we said oh we bring in containers it's going to be fast but um they said no containers no good because if you have a hook that means you can bring it in fast but you can also take it away and we want to have a real building so um through um our lovely project manager um and let's say lady impresario of of project Diana um she helped um you know basically talk with a with our local friends and they said well we want something physical and um there was a house from plastic bottles and they said well what is that yeah this is uh you know we can build this so basically look it up promise hub dot com it's a um a round house it's the largest uh bottle house built from recycled plastic bottles so you put some sand in it and this becomes the building bricks actually of the house um so not only couldn't we recycle for the local team but also kind of build something which everybody could contribute because all of a sudden became their house everybody had their hand on some of the plastic bottles to build it and now it's beautifully designed and and painted and inside there's a couple of rooms 120 square meters and um you know we brought in computers and wi-fi and um so the amazing thing is that it's not a school that we teach it's actually a center for entrepreneurs where they define and find their own passion and we encourage them so we basically give them tools and encouragement tools meaning access to digital you know learning as well as digital platforms like payments and and so on but it's more or less the encouragement you know checks a couple of youtube videos if you know there's maybe a passion you have and can you make this into a job and um we have seen especially now in this um you know COVID crisis also that their entrepreneurial minds also you know they're doing masks and they're developing soap for you know hand hygiene and if you speak with our friends they're they're like a walking TED talk they're like yeah we don't have to do this and this and it's amazing how you know knowledge spreads and if you combine that with passion and enable some of these that's entrepreneurial minds to meet all of a sudden you have a community and you build it and that kind of grows and so we have started this journey I think now two years ago um was finding the place and then building the house and um it's just an amazing journey and we hope we can find more partners to kind of spread this around the world and that looks quite good right now so an amazing team and it's again so rewarding to see from you know your life's journey there's like one event here which leads to this which has some ideas and then ideas evolves almost like a Rubik's cube some of the ideas have been there and some of the some of the parts of it but sometimes you have to turn it and then all of a sudden you see it and then it's manifested in a you know school of all things so yeah it's it's beautiful because what happens is it's the promise hub you've given them a promise but through that they get empowered and they create something so originally like you said it was supposed to be a container then it evolves into this beautiful big bottle house with uh all sorts of um a mecca hub spot around it of not only entrepreneurs and makers and crafts and art and um music and dance and giving people a promise and a hope and empowerment to create it themselves and I watched the journey I'm also an advisor thanks to you um so we we help each other on different projects but how where it starts out you can see through the videos and the initial experiences where these people are like what is this going to be a sounds great a promise and I'm not sure if I have the skills or knowledge but then you see them flower and just create amazing things and and turn into this like like you said uh the walking ted talks they're running around after a few months saying this is unbelievable this is the best thing and it's created new new promise and hope for the future which is such a beautiful thing uh we could go on with the other projects probably for hours I just wanted to let our listeners know that uh you've been doing this a long time where we're both kind of been old hands at this and that you have your hands and and many different things to better the world to better our future to create these resilient desirable futures one aspect of that is uh your your English is absolutely impeccables because you uh lived in uh New York and and as a German you you um you know speak German and maybe a couple other languages but you're uh very well versed but you are a global citizen and what I want to know in in some respects not only because you've lived in other places and you travel a lot and interact with those I want to know what your feelings and uh thoughts are about being a global citizen but how would you feel if that turned into a reality for every human being on earth if we remove the borders the walls the limitations what is your view and your understanding of this and is it something that we're moving towards is it something that's happening has it already occurred um yeah I mean uh we lived in New York actually physically our I had the rest of both worlds we lived in New York for seven years uh 98 to 2004 so we saw the height of the you know dot com and startup craze I had the privilege to have an office in Soho downtown you know on Green Street between Prince and spring I mean for European probably uh it's like the mecca of cool and nice stores and stories I mean you know all the old stories of Andy Warhol and all the artists and galleries which now are more Chanel boutiques probably boarded up right now still um so that was cool and I actually lived even in Connecticut so I had like a very amazing life we had maybe the smallest house there but still it was a cool cool cool time one of my daughters is born there and they both grown up so the language luckily is even better with them and that is I think what one thing we can yeah give teach kids teach ourselves and learn is the different perspective the longer you are away from your own home you see it with different eyes and um you know it was a long dream for me to spend time in the US which I could and was all of the you know some of the companies later I found it were also you know based there so it has been a great ride so global citizenship is something for example we in in Europe let's say on a limited scale part of a global idea we have the Erasmus program where students can exchange go to other you know universities to learn spend a semester or two um also there were some ideas which I would really love is if people once they you know enter school have a gap year and basically get a year you know free train ticket and say okay you can go wherever you want on the trains uh especially in Europe and and just have a different perspective go out you know you have to be alone you you know get get off your parents a couch sort of say make some adventures make new friends and have a much faster you know idea about that we all connected and that everybody has a different life and you can maybe combine it with some social work um so that you you actually have more not only a party life but do you also touch base uh with let's say some of the community where you are in southern France or Italy um I think in the US um we see especially now unfortunately that uh we could do more with education with having a global view I mean especially maybe let's call it more the presidency rather than the people because I have so many amazing friends which I miss and I just feel that right now is not the time first of all not the next two months anyway to just go and hang out in the US I mean it's one of the most beautiful countries it has much some of my really deepest friends uh which I knew since years and um now let's say the presidency and and this whole thing in Washington basically you got out of hand and I mean they're actually reframing from the COP and from the climate agreements they're getting out of the WHO and don't want to work on the health organization and not even say hey we need to rejuvenate and and let's say everybody can improve even the especially also the uh WHO but they just say no we're off I mean 21 we're we're signing off uh we the US um so there's not a lot of that overview effect and I think that at least had for me some spark um that the COVID crisis we're in right now is something as an overview effect because all of a sudden we had the one thing which everybody had in common the thing is that maybe even we see that the time shift now even both the Bolton Arrow has COVID and he was the biggest denier except for Trump so there's some irony in that and obviously hopefully he gets not sick from it but um we see that I mean this is a global effect and it trains a lot of smart people to say wow now we know that we have to better prepare for climate for some of these challenges even future pandemics but there's even more people on the let's say side of the deniers which say well you know it's just a virus it's just a flu and we'll go away and um I think I lack especially in the high times we let let uh lack some of the leadership actually on a global level the UN really was not like stepping in and say wow this is something we actually bring the blue helmets in now help the world to coordinate it was there was one picture which is like an empty you know room of the security council I mean this is a big security threat this is a health threat this is a global you know threat of ideas on the other hand there is this tiny chance as you so say with the overshoot day that that climate could actually learn from it well if we don't drive so much if trucks and chips and especially cruise ships and so on are driven less there's an effect we can see so this has to be also learning effect and so I feel that if you are already a global citizen you are just reinforced in your view and say wow this has to be even more as a feeling and as a you know data for everybody to see on the other hand it's so sad to see that I think we have to do so much more that giving that global perspective and and frame it at the same time I mean at the height of COVID almost Americans or it's a Elon and NASA Elon Musk shoot the new form of a space shuttle up there the dragon the dragon and this was also a good moment in a way it definitely brought some people in Tamil and people on YouTube I think streaming this seeing in the way a little bit of that global overview effect and but I think you know sometimes I feel that we need a new narrative on a global level and it right now the narrative only comes from politicians and if they are strong great if they are so so okay it becomes more like you know let's a tweet or some propaganda or a short video I think even the EU didn't really show a lot of leadership in the height of it you know it broke down into national states it even broke down into counties or states within countries and you know putting up borders I mean what's that so I think we could have done a better job at least within Europe and say hey if people have it in France and so on I mean you can have local lockdowns maybe like we see in a small town in Germany like and that's okay but there has to be a better cohesion on well how do we solve these things on a more regional multi-state level and that's you know still my hope we have to all go in and then see if we can influence some of the politicians and some of our people and partners to you know think more on a global level but I mean you and me we say hey it's all there exactly look we all see it we're all part of this we are the global citizens and we have to think and feel more and so I think we have the data we have to feel the future we have to feel that we are part of it and that we have a agency and that's you know in a way my mission or our mission to say can we spread the word and bring more people into feel that they've been part of that journey. The agency and empowerment to feel like a global citizen for a long time I know that the World Trade Organization and businesses really been acting as global citizens global players regardless of the nations and borders that we've built up and it's been functioning that way in many respects that you you you brought a sensitive subject that's kind of has a ripple effect to many others and that's the the COVID-19 the coronavirus we have a a mutual friend in in Helsinki Finland Mika Linonen and over the times many times you've said before you know to unify us as a world we need we need an alien invasion or we need an alien to kind of bring the humanity together to rally around the cause or solution and so we we didn't have an alien but we've had a virus which is really a spinoff of the seasonal flu and SARS and MERS and and this pushing forward of that it's and it's really the the root of it is is a climate issue that's created through humans encroaching on certain areas and bringing viruses out of the soils and we can see it's also it's very much tied to the seasonal flu it happens in a certain time and should go away eventually I don't want to go too much into the controversy of that because I believe it's truly a wonderful time to have a pause and a reset to get us on that new path and we have a plan for that I want to know how as a nomad as a futurist as someone who's thinking about this and doing moonshots how have you weathered during this time what has it been and I I think you know you also touched upon your time in New York there was something that happened there that that has maybe made you more resilient or are also giving you some learnings that you can take away and have applied during this time and I'd like to kind of get an update on how that's been and what your plan is going forward yeah well yeah you touched upon New York I mean not seeing only the high days or the heydays of the dot com but also the dot com bubble bursting but especially also 9 11 so I was in New York I was literally on 42nd street and 5th avenue seeing one of the towers crumble and that was really remarkable let's say in so many words and so many aspects of this we had a startup at the time we lost I don't know within the next 10 days we had I don't know we had 250,000 dollars in the books within 10 days after 9 11 all of that vanished you know there was effects coming in with sort of an axe into it and say sorry this man is no longer here the marketing person who signed it is off and so on so it was not only a financial you know disaster that was also in different aspects of health and so on so we stayed on in America but basically I had to change industry I mean personally we're like hey 9 11 I mean there was 2000 was nastic crash 9 11 was in 2001 so within a year or let's say 12 months you went from amazing internet goes all the way up and I was really at the you know frontier of that to well the internet was overrated in a way advertising is gone any kind of new ideas are gone so sorry I had to switch industry I was actually it was a fun part as well in the end but it was a two-year stint in raising an ice cream franchise from Europe in America but literally the idea on the understanding that well you are useless in your industry where at the you know just a week before you were at the forefront of new innovation we worked for procton gamble worldwide for museum of modern art we worked for amazing projects and then was a startup worked for all the big fragrance industries coty and you know Chanel and s.c. lorda I mean it was like in new york working for these prestigious brands it was sort of the top of the pops but within a week is like no that's all gone you need to you know go back in line and think about something new that in a way prepared me to be faster if you will I mean involuntarily and so when this crisis hit after the financial crisis 2008 it's something of a deja vu and the others say okay we have to the hardest part is to motivate yourself so that you can help motivate others and be a little bit of a flag and say well this is what we have to think about now and I you know try to coin it more like the metamorphosis rather than a transformation we have talked about digital transformation for the last I mean maybe five years and for me digital transformation is really only investment you know how do you say a lack of investment over the last 20 years I think I had my first email address I just thought in 85 so a lot of us have been digital for a long time and you feel like oh people talk about oh I think we have to do digital now it's the internet is not going away yes hello wake up so I think digital transformation is more or less you know a reaction and of not investing the last 10 or 20 years in small you know small bets and digital now all of a sudden you have to play catch up invest so much time change your organization you see it at Volkswagen we have to be in our software company and and find 5 000 people to build an operating system and all move to works works work which is you know nowhere what they want to live unless you just want to work and have a nice time it's a nice countryside but that's it so impossible job but I think COVID shows us that we have to think even more radical so we have to think about a butterfly and say well we have been a caterpillar we are in the state of goo right now in our cucumber cook on we actually literally have been in our cook on at home some of us had the chance to read all the books we ever wanted to read and so on as an entrepreneur you're never really on the side like maybe somebody is who are for learned you are actually was one foot always you know out of your company but it's like oh no what's in they have to switch the next industry and was one foot you're like hustling so my time has been a little bit more busy than than usually actually super busy was a zoom call today and I wish this is going same with me yeah that cocoon stage is the gooey stage it's almost a not only just a disruption but it's burning your bridges behind you and you're actually cannibalize yourself so that cocoon and that gooey transformation from cocoon to caterpillar cocoon to to butterfly is really where we're at there's no going back there's nothing to go back to yes and you know our mission is moonshots right moonshot thinking moonshots for Europe is sort of our main focus although we go more global in our approach now the idea of let's say moonshots is people understand in you know 69 50 years ago 51 years ago we touched you know the man on the moon actually on the 20s of july coming up my mom's birthday so the the a moonshot in a way it could be a very technical term and some people say yeah it's very american and you know it's not and it's only technical it doesn't have anything but if you combine the notion of this technical innovation steam we were writing literary the last decades especially on exponential technologies and you know computer power and now artificial intelligence nanotech biotech AI robotic all of these things are on this amazing curve which is so hard to grasp but that's the main driver and we see it on the stock market as you said earlier that the big winners are the googles and the amazon's and the apple and microsoft of the world and tesla so now if you combine the the technical notion with sort of this nature approach of a butterfly where the butterfly or the caterpillar has no dna structure so it doesn't even know that it becomes a butterfly and we are in that thing in the middle hopefully we can develop and a lot of us will i want to go back to be a caterpillar no we have to go through that heart stage we're in and i think literally for the next months we're in the covet but for the next probably you know a year or two we will be in another state where you know economic hardship will come as well as now new ideas a little bit harder because corporates cut the innovation budgets instead of just going the other way around i mean americans are showing us that doubling down amazon said hey we're investing four billion dollars in to make the most clean high-tech delivery stage um and and on the other same day you know some of the german automobile companies said oh we're cutting people we're cutting investment we are we're actually reframing to be a caterpillar we're not going the next way so i think we have to really open our minds to say we have what is our dream of being a caterpillar what's the dream of all desirable futures what is how do we want to live what's the future we want for our kids and then if you have that idea that north star that moonshot idea well how do we go around and say well what if we know where we are going what's our compass what's our north star well what is the steps the next two steps we can do the next two weeks and the next two years and we have to start with many steps towards that goal but if we don't have a goal rather than going back to the future back to the you know to whatever we were it's not happening so we have to develop this view to the future and i have gotten you know some calls you this time with some friends in the companies we work with and they have been active they have been you know oh let's do something i mean with some of our company partners we launched innovation for now a platform for where where other corporates help corporates it was you know special rebates going digital and so i'm just having that extra inch and so that was really cool to see you know what kind of energy is there and on the other hand people called me and say well i had to let go of my agencies but the one thing i keep is working on purpose because we know once we go through this we have to have a bigger purpose driven mission we know that as you say the capital markets are looking at it as well as especially our the war for talent for young people for the people who are in our company that the you know meaningful work and meaningful purpose of a company becomes even more important in the future to you know lead us into companies which now have to transform you know airbus some of our closest frenzy in hamber you know they have to let go of 5000 people in germany alone 20 000 worldwide and is airbus now becoming a metal shop and say well we can build other machines which help the world or will they become an electric you know plane manufacturer or will they just say oh we weather the storm and then you know hopefully in two years everybody buys the same airplanes again well that's probably not the case so i can go on and on and we i think getting yeah that's part of this uh transition and how you've weathered it i'm glad to hear that during this time you you had some some who i'm also familiar with uh clients and those who you advise have contacted you and said that this the moonshot workshops this finding the purpose and your vision for the future creating these resilient desirable futures that that's where that's what will give them the resilience as a company it's a new paradigm a new business model to get them to the future to weather storms like this this will not be the last uh we will experience others and you you know you talked about 21 200 but we're going to see a lot more up until that time with the airline industry i have family all over the world you have friends all over the world have business colleagues and that i will continue to work and travel around the world as well but i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt by 2025 our our aviation industry if has been working since 1945 48 something like that uh with the united nations there's a specific united nations agency that uh um corcia the carbon offsetting um the sustainable initiative agenda something like that uh it's a carbon offsetting scheme and proposal to transition to the future of flight and renewable flights and carbon offsetting that's been in place a long time but january 2019 for all airlines it was required that they do certain carbon offsetting delta was one that came in and and this january this year and said by march first we're going to be carbon neutral and do carbon offsetting and innovations so that future is coming regardless of we don't believe it we're worried we don't understand it and it's on an exponential curve and it needs to be because i'm not going to stand still and many others aren't either we're going to get cabin fever there is a way to enjoy the world and planet be global citizens but to do it sustainably to do it without impacting our environment and our planet and that has to do with the business models and this this analogy that you gave of having this metamorphosis from caterpillar to cocoon to to butterfly there is no going back and there are some that die in the cocoon stage but there's other who get that struggle to get out and through that struggle to get out of the cocoon is where they get their strength and and resilience to to live on and i really think that those companies that have heeded this transition for better business models and applying sustainability environmental social governance this esg into their business models who've listened to the workshops and and discussions that you had they're really going to fare a lot better the the question i have is is the the cocoon stage for me in some respects i don't know if this is a far stretch of the of of analogy right now we're in the social distancing in the mask phase right we're got to wear masks out outside and and if we push this personal protection equipment which was usually left for hospitals or people in certain construction trades or things to to protect themselves for from air pollution or whatever it may be or in hospital scenarios but if we push that model out into the future what what does it look like you know um so i guess this is the point where i ask you the burning question wtf and and we both know it's not the swear word but what's the future if we push these current models out what's that going to look like or do you have a clearer vision of wtf well i think um i don't have a clear vision i think but i have a good feeling of um you know what what is there and it's so complex that it's really okay it's sort of a you know that the guy kawasaki who was a famous evangelist of apple basically coined the term when he built ecosystems and said ah we have to let a thousand flowers bloom i think mao said something like we have to had a million flowers bloom so it was sort of a i don't know acronym which jumped from capitalism to capitalism yeah but i think we there's so many let's say ideas and pockets and that's why it has also it's not what's the future what's desirable futures it hasn't asked it's a plural thing the future of people and hamburgers different from people in mumbai or chile we see that right now you know the world is already burning our house is burning and literally in australia in chile in california even in on the border of hamber i'd say germany to the netherlands a couple of months ago there was you know there's drought and it's it's literally there there so well but we see also amazing innovative um circles and communities if you will and we have to let all of them um bloom we have to bring in more ideas we have to encourage young entrepreneurs communities to you know live at the edge i mean that's what architects like buck meister fuller says well you cannot really change old systems you have to start a new and then you know that inspires people similar that what john hagel says with the center of the edge say well you have to have the innovation at the edge and jump to the next you know iteration if you will and then people will flock to these new ideas similar that steve jobs you know you had the lisa computer and let's say everybody on the company was working with that except these 10 guys over there in the secret thing which then became the macintosh so you know innovation of edge and you know disruptive ideas in mutual labs or you know like all friends at telephonica alpha or google x i think there's these pockets of innovation whether they're disruptive and or they are smaller in communities so um you know kibbutz in israel or you know especially the sort of startup nation in israel is like what in the desert let's say literally you know they come up with you know drip systems for agriculture or what you know desaltation plants they mankind and our ingenuous species we come up with new ideas all the time and the thing is that um i think our capitalistic system and economic system needs to adapt to not just like okay winner takes it all but we have to distribute this so it has to be more common more community based and i feel that we have to come back to some kind of um let's say collectives um where we see well you know a lot of people in the community of let's say maybe 150 people first of all it's you know something socially works well but if you can somehow control a virus in a village sort of say and it gives you more resilience if you work better as a community and it doesn't have to be all villages it can be in cities as well but i feel that um let's say you know i have we talked about smart cities and the cities we know in 2050 there's the you know the data that 70 percent of the people at least will live in cities and we know that every day we as a global citizens we're building a Manhattan uh let's i don't know if it's a day or it's a month but let's say imagine every month you built a new city with the size of Manhattan boom boom boom boom boom and um all of the cement going in and all of the energy and then the people and so on but all of the if if we have this one data yeah 70 of the people will live in cities well that means that most of this all of a sudden everybody puts all the energy in this rather than well couldn't we also not keep some people in villages let's say here in Hamburg um if you live an hour from now and you can do telecommuting which was you know IBM invented that I think 30 years ago which we're now living we're living in a work from home environment so well we could maybe stay also you know not only in a city but live in environments which are closer through the sea more in nature better connected to local food you know less supply supply chains and learning from each other and maybe you know exchanging acts against tomatoes or something so all of that is a feeling that I think we have to build go back to you know think as communities rather than corporates or you know capitalistic systems so there's something we have to try and say how do we get back to some of a new model some might say well we had that before yeah okay let let's rejuvenate that and what is sort of the 4.0 version of you know working together because we know and we can you know I don't want to start that but let's say if we all invent oh we have to catch up on AI AI and a lot of their robotic systems we will invest in will also mean a lot of free time for a lot of people because we don't need manual work anymore and we will not need let's say work which is just like putting one paper to the other or filling in forms online or something like that that's all going to be going to machines so we have to start now while you invest basically one dollar in AI research you have to invest at least another dollar and well what does it mean for our society and can we have preemptive policies to see what the world looked like in five years from now if we do that and how can we prepare the society our you know pension systems funds investments as well as our social contract towards these things and I think right now policy is just looking behind they're like slowing they're looking at pattern three years ago they're looking at KPIs and past performance indicators and looking at the past which is no good indicator of the future I mean you touched upon some things that are very very poignant we we need to move forward we need to go through this cocoon this butterfly effect this morphocyst that they've talked about and you know you're answering the question what's the future are we going to go go forward also in Sangdo we had this professor Chin that spoke to us about homosumbios the symbiotic earth kind of a new framework that we're interconnected with all other species and our planet kind of working and operating within our planetary boundaries your your your answer in the question what's the future now for future IO Institute what's the roadmap what do we have to look forward to I mean we at the beginning of our conversation we showed the two books and and that you came out for are you do you have a plan a roadmap for your advisors your the people to kind of give them that vision of the future I think that the idea of let's say convening is something which I think becomes even more precious so we literally have been in the let's say event industry if you will and that has been hit hard over the COVID crisis so we couldn't meet actually literally I think a week ago or two weeks ago in end of June we would have been an excellent now we moved that to October so we're still planning two meetings in October and one in December in blacks and then in X because I we we got some good feedback for people say no you know yes we have been in office and yes as has been you know good and rewarding and we have time to think but we need to meet I mean we are social people so we you live from cross-pollinating ideas you live from serendipity moments of people you meet of ideas you can exchange and we try to bring people in a you know outside of their daily lives outside of cities and more towards amazing locations like you know our friends from H farm in Italy which is close to Venice which is just an amazing example of how can you have innovation communities literally startups corporates and now a university of more than 3000 people they're building it's just a place on its own and once you're there you see that you know all of a sudden ideas are allowed and which and thinking is just like more natural in a green environment and and Italy having some good espresso with your ideas so I think that's for us essential you know with the faculty and the amazing people which we put the book together and mood you're thinking is something which is really helping to prepare for the next decades and thinking ahead and thinking more inclusive thinking about social impact ecological impact even financial impact of you know your initiative it's not only thinking on tech we need to understand technology exponential technology so that we can make informed decisions but we often have to double think on well what's the impact of what we're doing we don't want to just say hey the only reason is well look at Airbnb and Uber and some of these let's say companies which create jobs and billions for five people but then five dollar a job five dollar an hour job for the gig economy so that's not what we want it's it's really literally say well can we work with the german middle stand or the european hidden champions and say there's some companies which are amazing their transition like fist month for example it's a heating company and they've been around since more than 100 years so can we help company like those and their leadership in you know and celebrating their 200 year anniversary that would be amazing and that's a little bit more what we can learn from you know Asia where they're like more a long view on innovation and you know companies so on so the combination of long view plus innovation is something we want to foster but our you know hiatus in covid and our homework at kukun more has helped us accelerate this so we are working on a masterclass we are now sexually today and so you will be the first one to cover it and is having a masterclass on muntra thinking which you're part of it so that we bring our faculty parts which are especially you know working on muntra thinking like Pablo who was a founding CEO of telephonica alpha and some other brilliant minds to help in a you know global classroom if you will online and see if we can extend our reach which we had with you know cxos chief digital office such innovation officer mostly in european events and see if we can now scale this on a you know make it available globally so the workshop will launch in september and after that we plan to have a muntra on sustainability which we will collaborate on and you know some other ideas about more leadership on purpose so i think there's things which we will work on that help spread the word even for you know more people get more involved and see if we can spark part of a global community if you will we still have our european roots and this is where you know the heart is but i think we can learn much more from you know from china from asia from the americas but we can also maybe bring some of our values and say well you know we have to exchange we have to have this open dialogue and think in a more as you know as exactly you say in this overview effect we have to collaborate on a global level so this hopefully gives us some you know i also like the fact that you know that you have that you you say how important the communities are and and we need to think globally and act locally and build up these communities the european union is is a strong fabulous example in a great community a lot of super innovation so there's no harm in that i i think the master classes are really needed at this time so that companies and corporations organizations know how to do their sustainable reporting how to implement environmental social governance into their business models it's been around for a long time it started out as a you know health and safety and environment then it went to compliance then it went to corporate social responsibility and you know now it's then this sustainability and now into environmental social governance and really the sustainable development goals are so important no matter what your topic is if it's motivation if it's innovation if it's the environment if it's whatever the overarching plan that we have for everyone is is the Paris 2030 agenda the Paris agreement and the sustainable development goals and that the they are all a system they all need to be worked on together but but the one that really ties to the global citizen question and what you're talking about is a 17 partnership for the goals not only did 197 countries come together ratifying agree on the Paris agreement but before that the sustainable development goals in September 24th and 2015 and they agree that this is the roadmap to plan the goal you know we don't need to invent something new we've already got that world's first ever global moonshot in that roadmap that plan to get there we need the tools now so companies are struggling to understand how to do that and what that looks like and to give them to a master course a plan an action plan to implement it to help us make that transition as you've said it's a and as you've learned over the years it's a it's a resilient desirable futures better business model for your company it's a show you the way forward of what needs to be implemented so i i'm very hopeful because that kind of let's say moonshot thinking is something which is now being implemented in europe especially was a you know a hundred billion dollar fund or more it's probably trillions if you will call count everything in that horizon europe which is a new r&d program which starts next year as well as the green new deal and all the let's say packages to help the economy getting off their feet from this covert stop let's say or pause so i think all of a sudden if you tie in what mariana mazucato from the ucl so brilliantly kind of inspired the you to now implement is there actually purpose driven missions you know it's basically the the european translation for moonshot purpose driven missions and they will not just fund only like oh you need you know 100 million in r&d for ai okay next you get 105 million and that goes only to big research departments which live from that which is i mean has been a great streak of innovation but i think now it goes into goals which are more you know purpose driven for example there will be earmarked about seven billion in the goal can we have 100 climate neutral cities is it within the next 10 years by 2030 and the climate neutral cities if you get the funding that doesn't say ah you have to use now electric cars it might you know it's actually up to mayors or let's say local governments now to say well what do we need to achieve that goal and sometimes it might need you know more green paint to depict the bike lanes and inspire more people to go on bikes as the new reelected mayor hidago from from paris you know she said well i want to get rid of 60 000 parking spots in the heart of paris wow and i want to make it walkable so that it was in 50 minutes you have your hospital you have your work and you have you know all of the closes and croissants you need and meeting your friends i mean this is now very audacious similar the mayor of lisbon basically said we have to get rid of airbnb and we have to bring people and especially nurses and so on i have to make them affordable to you know come back to the center of the city and yes we live from tourism but we don't have to live only from tourism and we have to kind of have our own balance with a you know the better of citizens life sort of say so even if they are not successful within the next two years or so but this is the audacious goal this is sort of munter thinking this is unpopular and this is something which is like well it's better for us and me as a mayor i stand for this and i want to start it and we see in france that more you know green mayors have been elected and i think this is not only about a party but it shows hopefully a sign that something has shifted already towards you know beautiful moon shorts butterflies and a world where we actually can make these decisions and think a little bit harder about the positive effect so i think there's a lot of hope i think we can see and the green you deal if you call it like this or even in typical r&d and new funds which help help us again if you have this mission driven initiatives there's to be new correlation new cross-pollination and also you have to upskill leadership people whether that's you are mayor or corporate leader or you are head of r&d and that's where we hope we can contribute to a small part and you know help connect these leaders in thinking moon shorts you know parameters bringing them together with experts who have done this since a couple of years and startups and entrepreneurs who are eager to you know play their part in in all of this that's fabulous because it's so true i mean this this book moon shots for europe that came out last year we it was kind of a magnificent feat i don't know how many months less than two maybe three was produced and published and and a lot of collaborators are fabulous book but i like how you bring it for it but you and you did that's right you didn't kill a tree for it so there's a couple things we had a lot of help the innovators magazine and 1.5 media also helped us with editing and they're also helping us with editing this show and they also do a lot with the un and song dough and that and so we we have some great friends partners and leaders the the thing around this book is in order to give out a book at the world economic format davos they've had for numerous years a paperless policy that there's no paper allowed to be distributed this isn't paper this is rock paper this is crushed rock calcium carbonate so no tree was cut down trees you know produce oxygen capture carbon heal our soils they do all sorts of amazing things so we didn't cut those down and it was printed in a renewable printing facility with organic inks and it's a very environmentally friendly if you throw it away it's not going to be plastics are hurt or be a waste of resources in that respect and and it's it's waterproof it's there's so many wonderful things out of it so it's a new innovation but it's chocked full of tons of innovations from cover to cover it's a beautiful well well published and written a book from so many wonderful contributors that not only are we talking about the innovations and the moon moon shots for europe and the moon shots for the future globally but now we're giving people an innovation in their hands something that this is the 10th book in the world that's printed on rock paper fabulous thing and fabulous partners and collaborations i love how future i o i love how you are connected as an influencer and a leader to bring world leaders and people together to to see that new vision of the future the sustainable development goals is the exact same thing it's the plan it's the roadmap to 2030 it's it's our way it's our future it's ingrained in the green new deal it's ingrained in our plan globally from for most good leaders you know miracle and the EU and others to to help us get there and reach that we have talked about this before but in order to reach them we need six major transformations and you you mentioned in your discussion before that you know AI and emerging technologies the jobs of the future will be different and that we won't be doing maybe what we're doing now there are so many different transitions and infrastructures that need to be built you mentioned Volkswagen and how they've got to do a new operating system and they've got to convert to all electrical and hydrogen different types of things emerging and coming out but there are so many jobs in this transition to build that renewable infrastructure to build that's why it's called sustainable development development is developing infrastructures and countries communities and cities there are a lot of jobs available there's going to be a lot of gaps in industries to clean up all the metal scraps and how do they convert the airplanes into electrical planes or use a new jet fuel how do they do that how do they not strand those resources I mean you and I know it very well and remember that when the Berlin wall came down right at the border there was tons of trabis people would drive them to the border and then no more gas or they'd break down and they were just stranded there and they're you know for for years until they were they were cleaned up and and that can't be part of our transition we need to have repurposed those metals and those materials so there is plenty for us to do wonderful jobs wonderful opportunities to help us to reach that goal so it's a very hopeful and optimistic and it's not the doom and gloom you know that's why I asked you this question you know wtf are we going to go from from face masks to gas masks to oxygen masks to space suits no we're we're going to create resilient desirable futures to get us there and I believe we're totally aligned on those futures that we we present as probably the second to last question I have for you and it's a big one and I pre pre-warned you and you you mostly answered it in some way or the other during our conversation already what does a world that works for everyone look like for you I don't want to know what it looks like for me or anyone else I want to know what it looks like for you and it'd be nice if you could tell us how how we're going to get there well I mean of course we have I think maybe our own personal dreams of how we would spend more time I think we are living and and then there's sort of oh what's a systemic change for everybody I think the mix of that is is not an easy one it's something you know but I think you asked a question the right way because we all have to feel this agency and empowerment that well if we you know show something an example you know we might inspire others or we might inspire exactly the opposite which works for other people if it works for all at the same time and for our planet in a positive way there has to be sort of a lab of ideas and that's in a way my my vision is say well I think it works if you know we have first of all the planet in our you know co-living citizens and friends and neighbors in mind that that our impact that we generate was how we live is not hurting or disturbing anybody else but with in general we have sort of a positive effect whether you have a good relationship with your neighbors or your you know co2 footprint is positive if not you compensate and work on that you know you know reducing plastic in your house and these kind of things I think for me personally building a bridge between more let's say rural communities having a lab in nature where you can help contribute with you know planting trees maybe in a in some way or form and inviting people to give a space of innovation and learning and this kind of a living lab is something you know for me personally would be inspiring and you know desirable to spend time that we have right now we are we're working from home since four months almost right now and somehow it works yes we miss quality time and this becomes even more precious so if we go on an airplane and if we meet people we will make extra time to it so and hopefully in times and environments where we don't need the mask anymore soon but even that we have to be careful how we you know thread as a social animal if you will and seeking these connections which are healthy and not toxic to us as well as so once we have this kind of you know our level of friends our level of cooperation partners we work with I think this is something which we're inspired to and you know obviously do that in a city where maybe you live in a neighborhood which is more inclusive and which is more open and which is more cultural diverse which you know helps everybody to grow and and you know find their potential and I also feel I'm just you know fond of working together with young people you know my daughters are a fantastic age to you know learn from each other and I think we almost have to you know sidestep if you see you know the American election which like two 75 year old guys have to battle out and I mean this is not the world we you know really see this is futuristic so I think I rather want to see can we help you know everybody who is 25 to 35 right now and have an you know exponential step forward to leadership and have some kind of a working together where you know young and older people mentor each other from well this is the world we know and this is the world we want to dream and how can we help navigate together and this is sort of something I would love to explore more and you know continue to learn from other you know people around the world continue some travel in a meaningful way but also actually you know live in an environment where you know we can live a lab so our first camp and campus here in Hamburg as a kind of a work balance on the water in the harbor was a fantastic ride and now we find a new place and see if this is some maybe something we can do in an environment where you know maybe there's more sun or more ways to explore this in nature so that's great thank you that that is an important part to have this lab and experiment I want you to know on our listeners to know that unbeknownst to us or whether we we knew we were doing it we've been running a big lab and experiment with fossil fuels on our planet for a long time and so sometimes there's the question do we want to run a lab do we want to experiment we've been running a big experiment for a long time we're using fossil fuels and and many greenhouse gases which is affecting our planet which is turning out to be a very negative consequences for keeping us within the safe operating space of our planetary boundaries and so I believe that the way you conduct your labs and the way you conduct those future innovations there is sustainable innovation there is a way to do a clean and with a renewable and closed loop circular economy principles so that if it should fail if it's not a model that works well that you've still protected everybody and kept us in the safe confines of our planetary boundaries and operating space and so for the future it's really how we operate and how we produce that's really important are we producing efficiently and into the future as a parting thought for our guests and listeners is there any message if you could go up to each person individually and say this will change your life or this is what you need to hear from from herald what would it be um I think one of the most inspiring books and thoughts about books has been the last lecture and it's from a professor it just escapes me but we will put it in the link I will fabulous um and let's say if you think about the end of your time and this is what also Steve Jobs said uh that you know once he became more aware of his limited time not only when it was he was sick but just like from his um learnings and studies is that you have made you know once you know your time is limited on this planet you have to make it more meaningful and um you know we have you know I'm 50 plus now and uh you'll be soon so um that that means that you know half of our life and maybe more is already over so um I think this kind of notion of well make your time worthwhile and uh this is um something which I don't know struck me and I think if you have this idea plus well you can make a difference you are a futurist you are somebody who has to think in a way more collectively within your network your family your neighbors within your corporate you could be the one who's nagging in each meeting and say hey I think we should stop this plastic can we not innovate on our product and make it without plastic and can we not be you know in our town the one first factory which is co2 positive or you know so I think it all comes to everything we see around us it's made from people it's made from a designer it's made from somebody who had an idea it's made from a I don't know a light bulb with 1,355 times or more has been failing as an experiment and then the one time you know it changed our lives and for one person who was a light bulb and for everybody else's electricity and access to learning you can read a book and study at night and so on and so forth so each of our little steps have this you know in a way again butter for eye effect and have millions of butterflies bloom this is a world I want to see that that everybody has you know this beauty in mind you know Tim Lieberecht our friend says is also so well with this like beautiful romantic society and romantic business and it means like no it should be somehow you should feel good about what you do if you're good about the company you work with you feel good about the influence you have in the world and it has can be a small step it can be an act of kindness which our friend Diana is studying in her PhD study and you know a smile in the morning or you know an apple a day and you know less car driven miles every day this every little step helps and I think most people think oh it's only somebody above has a plan and you know the politicians run this and they have all the experts know I mean we are collective energy that's what we have to bring together and I just that's exactly if we meet with just a hundred some people in at age from or at the camp in in in Exxon-Provence this literally changes people's lives because you have all of a sudden you have the feeling you're not alone everybody has an impact in what they do and it can be more meaningful and if we push them that that impact has a little bit more daring effect all of us can benefit and so it's up to all of us and every one of us to be the change and you know that's only what I hope for and I see a lot of good signs and connecting with friends like you the faculty and people around the world giving feedback and you know calling in and doing a zoom call to check on each other that's I think what we have to live for is a community aspect and it can just start with one and one other person so like this conversation thank you very much for your time I mean this is just a quality time we need yeah the the Randy Poush the last lecture live every day as it was your last and every little step in action counts or make it count and that know that you are not too small to to have an effect because we are all crew members on this spaceship earth we're not passengers we're not just along for the ride where can actually steer and guide it and our future is the way we would like to have them be so I love you Harold you're a good friend and it was so great to see you and thank you so much for being here with me and and I'll put all the links in in the video below and I wish you all the best and we'll be seeing each other very soon for the master class exactly thanks so much Mark and all the listeners thanks for hanging in there for an hour plus you're fine that's what it's about the deep dive in substance thanks so much Harold take care