 We are back with some Queens Vans Day on why in the morning my name is Barry Moses or it's by morning every social media platform. I know you're wondering why I'm branded different but this is something special for anybody out there who experienced bullying or was going through bullying right now. So bullying is a reality of the world right now and that's why I brought Catherine aka Kai who's the country manager for FaceUp to shed some light in this. I'm Santisana Barry. Alright your camera is number four. I like to give everyone an opportunity to say all their aka's and all their achievements and all their titles before we can start. Yeah okay my name is official name is Catherine McElwain but popularly known as Kai Allianda but I also have several names actually I've got like seven names aka's. aka's yeah but I like Kai Allianda so basically my journey to here to in the studio today has been a long one I've been around a couple of times I've been around the block many times I started my career as a high school teacher I used to teach French and English second language and then I've done events presentation I've done events organization and then I went back to school believe it or not at a ripe old age and I did a third degree and that degree I studied psychology so at the moment I'm practicing psychology and then I'm pursuing a master's as well in community psychology which is a way of working with mental health but at a grassroots community level rather than with individuals and then one of the things that I do it's not just promoting bullying but it's not bullying but promoting anti-bullying campaigns but rather it's to work with mental health from a holistic perspective and this is just one of the things that I do face up so face up is one of the products that I am using to to work towards improving our communities and as Barry said earlier that I'm the country manager for Kenya it's a product that's developed by students for students students who actually experience bullying themselves and the founders of this organization are actually teenagers they're still teenagers and right now founders of them yes they're still teenagers because it started as a high school project and then they turned it into a social innovation and at the same time a business opportunity so currently in Africa we have presence in South Africa in Nigeria and Kenya so far yes so far and we are seeking to grow and in Eswatini as well former Swaziland and then we also is it's now Eswatini love to date now yeah there you go yeah and then India South America North America and it originated from Europe in Republic of Czech all right so you see the reason I have that particular segment where you just look at the viewers and talk to them because I wouldn't have captured all that so you have a lot that you have done and you have a lot that you want to do as well so enough about your profile when did you start working with face up face up for me the journey started last year actually when I attended a meeting and somebody else was presenting on it and I got interested so I went to their website and I see that they're looking for partners so they're looking to expand in different countries of Africa so I got in touch with them and they were very quick I guess being young guys they all work through technology so immediately they came back and then we started working on a strategy on how we can partner so as the country manager I've been involved from around about October of last year and right now we are looking to put our footprint in schools and institutions in Kenya so we are looking to interest schools to sign up for the app and they can start using the the product all right so you've incorporated technology in this course that you have yeah all right that is very wonderful because we are living in that age as we speak but something got my attention when you're introducing yourself you're working with mental mental health mental health holistically so is mental illness a prerequisite for for bullying no it's not a prerequisite in the sense that you don't need to be mentally ill to bully people but bullying can lead to a lot of mental issues because especially with the victims they end up suffering low self-esteem productivity is reduced you find that they carry some of the scars they're damaged for life some it's irreversible so it is something that can then lead to mental mental disease and then also with the perpetrators often you find that they themselves have some sort of emotional distress that leads them to bully so it does then fall within the realm of mental health all right so we know it's very prevalent within our schools in fact Kenya is actually one of the most highest in terms of internationally compared to other countries we have the highest bullying rate yeah wow we'll get into into the stats we'll get into the into the stats later but Kenya what does that tell about a society basically what it says when when you see a society that where bullying is so prevalent probably it's just a culture that is is there and it's not going away it's also a matter of people not accepting that it happens because I can almost guarantee you that if I went into any national school or private school and asked do you have bullying they will deny it yes so nobody wants to be a snitch yeah and nobody wants to look like they have bullying so we have to kind of like sugarcoat it and not call it bullying and call it other things that is also a problem that is the problem the stigma of your institution being labeled is that it's got bullying and then also I think I mean just a quick example on my way here to the studio the amount of stress on the roads we are quite a stressed city everyone's stressed to get somewhere people are aggressive people are short fused and short tempered so the rains make it worse the rains make it worse and everyone wants to be there at the same time so then you find that yeah we generally live in this sort of like very stressful society which then can really bring on things like bullying all right yeah another thing I experienced in school most of the of the bullies had issues that they were not dealing with me either at home or some personal issues do you think judging a bully's parent is something is the right thing to do okay like in our profession we never judge we work with what we have yes you you can call it out but the problem with calling out then people get defensive so you just need to work with say with the perpetrators not so much as blaming them or judging them or calling them out but you want to work with them in a way that helps them understand that it's not their fault that they are bullying but it's not the way they should be behaving and I think if you approach it from that sort of way then it's it's going to work better than um because most of the times when when you have bullies the perpetrators they're usually suspended from school or they're punished or they're taken somewhere where they can be taught adabuki dogo so this is not the way to deal with them no not from my opinion all right as a psychologist what do you think is the right approach one of the best approaches I believe um in handling mental health issues within society is preventative not curative because you don't wait for the fire to start and then start you know running for buckets of water to put it off but if we as a society first of all acknowledge that we have this kind of problem and within our schools within our communities we have we create an awareness that bullying and violence is not the way to solve issues let's say at the workplace how do we help people manage conflict how do we help people manage disagreements okay I disagreed with you but that doesn't mean I should punch you you know I need to respect your point of view I need to understand where you're coming from so psycho education from a preventative point of view is one of the key things let's put out the fires before they start happening and then also within the schools if we can have peer learning trainings where we mentor youngsters to work as counselors between themselves so that if somebody has a problem somebody is experiencing bullying or any other depression stress related emotional related issues they have people they can go to as say first responders before they can get to professionals all right people assume that uh the bullying can only happen uh let's say in a school setting from a student to student but uh they forget that people in authority can also bully the people who are not in authority all right so how does how do you go about this as a as a normal student in school you mean uh you mean bullying in the workspace or within the school because within the workspace like you said it's it's power differential and often people abuse power I mean just because I wear a uniform or because I have a title or because I have more education I can bully you because I have more power so to speak so within the workspace it's really about having the right policies that guide that organization how to treat each other and obviously people being able and feeling free enough to report these incidences because a lot of the time people are scared that if they report they might lose their job they might get revictimized there's always a backlash and for the gentleman they might look weak they might especially for the gentleman and if your boss is a lady oh you're going to suffer quietly that's the truth of the matter because yeah like you say men it's even they're double disadvantaged because you're supposed to be this strong guy or society also works sometimes we see the women as the victims and not the men so nobody really believes always the case always the case either gender can be subject to bullying yeah all right so uh as a as a gentleman going going to school uh when we were finishing primary school head into high school uh so parents are so obsessed with hardening their kids let's take them to boarding school so they can be tough let's take them to this and this school so they can be tough uh so people assume this a little boolean will toughen up the child do you believe this is true with man you up yes the thing is what is a little mine little is the line because we've heard of horror stories where uh monos i think they're called in in boarding school they're made to sleep on graves they pushed into swimming pools some are beaten up so what is enough so i i rather would just not go with this toughening up thing because you never know where it leads to and you never know what that bully maybe that guy was experienced such trauma himself and now he's avenging and tripling the revenge so so passing the trauma yes and also now thinking okay i went through this now i was hit five times i'm gonna hit you ten times and where does it stop where does it stop but the reality of life it's uh is that uh it's doggie doggie world and uh school is to prepare you for the real world and uh in the real world uh it's not uh it's not a fairy tale out there so maybe to some sense it prepares you for for for the bullying in the real world and that's what i said like when you asked about how do you then explain it in a society as ours then we are creating that culture and if that's the culture you want to keep pushing then this is the direction you will go but surely just as there is bullying and there's violence there's also calmness and peace so what message do you want to preach what kind of society do you want to live in do you want to live in do you want to live in what did you call it doggie dog doggie doggie doggie world if you want that kind of work then sure toughen up your people but if you want harmonious you know mutually respectful community then you're going to look for another way to to man up people and to toughen up people not to get them punched and beaten up i think there was a case probably last year where uh a high school learner was beaten up to the point that i think he lost his um mental capacity because he was hit repeatedly on the head so yeah and and then now you've got a vegetable of a son at home then what yes and leading to compass the uh they get into more trouble more trouble then not the workspace more trouble then you're releasing you're creating a whole society of of troubled violent people because that's the way they know it so i think that's the question you need to ask yourself as a person you heard the question you need to ask yourself what type of society would you like to live in and bring your kids up in uh so this is strength of a woman uh our social media handle is always right there below the screen chat with us interact with us we'll appreciate that for sure uh as genius as the name is yes face up face and you guys have an app as well yes we have an how does this up uh work and can we get it on google play and uh absolutely yes you can get it on the app store you download it but the way it works it's not like if you bury has the app it works you have to be within an institution so like let's say um state house which is the closest school to here i'll use that as an example so let's say they sign up for this app the institution signs up because then what happens is there is a dedicated team of people who will handle mental health issues and especially bullying so it's not like it's not like you can just take the app and then report because where will you be reporting unless now your organization should you channelize exactly so that the situation is um addressed because the point is you might have you might report bullying but if nothing is done about it then there was no reason to do it yeah so like i said originally it was an app that was developed by high school students started off as a project and then they turned it into a reality so it started within schools and um they're looking to expand into institutions like universities and even workplaces so how it works is that a school signs up and then a team of people is agreed upon like who will handle the matters when they're reported and then these people can either be in schools which are fortunate enough to have a psychologist or counselors or can be some dedicated teacher or the principal they get the report so all these things you're saying are as a privilege in this country as we speak schools don't have psychology schools don't have the guides that you were talking about these are things that are challenges i see them as challenges and i think that it's a good place to start realizing that these are some of the things that we need within our schools okay so the school doesn't have a psychologist or counselor fair enough so we as the team can then work with some of the teachers who are designated for this particular reason we work with them and if they need help on say a child reports that so and so is being called names or is being body shamed or is being abused so and so reports someone is overeating whatever reason then guilty as charged are you guilty of that so then those are some of the things if they feel it's not within their capacity they can then refer to us because to remember that that is my area and actually one of the things that i really want to achieve in my lifetime is to make that was supposed to be the last question but thank you for bringing it out should i pack it no no no so one of the things i'd really like to do is make an impact in the mental health sphere because i realize that there's very little that's being done and honestly if you have a sibling a friend a parent a child who needs mental health care it's a big problem because first of all when you think of mental institutions i'm not sure how many we have but i can think of only two major ones in the country if you look at the rate of mental illness it's it's massive it's massive so the question is where do these people go yes and if you look at the private ones to associate with mental institutions like i that's someone does him people don't appreciate that it's something that can be taken care of and the fact that you've lost your senses doesn't mean that you're useless and you can't be helped and you should be discarded but the question is where do they go where do people like these go all right yeah so i would really like to start to make a footprint that is something i feel needs a lot of attention and i want to really embark on that if you like because you're nothing without your mental exactly you can be physically fit you're walking good-looking guy like you well thank you but without your senses all right nothing or if you're stressed nothing wonderful wonderful impact that you want to leave but the big question is it's nice that you're incorporating technology but are you dealing with the fact that mobile phones are illegal in public schools like the one i went to that's the thing because i when an innovation starts say from a western perspective it starts with from the default point that these things are available then you come to developing countries and you realize oops doesn't work so again it's a challenge for the developers now they need to sit back and say okay this is what's happening in Africa we people don't have access to wi-fi just like that they don't have smartphones they're not allowed phones so how do they repackage so currently we will have to maybe work with institutions which have these facilities as we look to how to redesign because remember this is an innovation innovations evolve they have to serve the needs otherwise they're irrelevant in that society i like that you mentioned innovation and evolution because bullying has also evolved with innovation technological innovation and we're going to the days when we just see the physical bullying or the verbal bullying face-to-face and now people are taking it online people are body-shaming and women are the biggest victims of this cyberbullying i'm not saying men do not go through it but women bias suffers from this so is it also something you're trying to to to to work on as face-up yeah because yeah you're right bullying has evolved it's gone to another new level whereas before say you were in school you got bullied in the playground at break time and that was over and you could go home and you had some peace but now you go home you look at your phone it continues their abuse continues so it doesn't leave you so it's it's with us constantly in terms of face-up what i can say is that because you have the option to report anonymously there is some sort of it's we say that we give the bystanders a voice because often with bullying there's always bystanders but people are scared to do anything because the bully will target you next there's always a backlash but now because you can report anonymously people are being given a voice to speak out i think was it saying speak up they're being given you can report anonymously so you don't have to be scared that you can't speak about it um so i think that is one of the advantages that we have with the app in that sense all right and known anonymity yes it's very important because even at work for instance your colleague may notice that your boss is bullying you but they're too scared because they know if they say anything they become the target yeah so anonymity and people not wanting to be seen as antagonizing the bully is very important wonderful the schools just opened and a lot of head teachers and principals watch us by the way i'm pretty sure they're watching in the offices right now in the staff rooms how can they get to to work with face up if they're interesting okay so we do have them straight into the eyes right now i was looking at your eyes we do have a website and i can just give it to you so there is the general website page which is faceup.com and then with the canyon website it's www.faceup.ke and then you can get our phone numbers you can get our email there and you can ask for more information all right so from the website they can get the social media handles as well yes and yes just to paint a picture just for people to understand the kind of country they're living in what are some of the the stats pertaining to bullying in this country right now okay um i'll just pull that up for you very quickly as you pull that up remember we're on social media at y254 channel on twitter y254 underscore channel on instagram and y254 on facebook hashtag is why in the morning hashtag is queens wednesday and the topic of conversation is bullying and the hashtag is report bullying courtesy of face up the tiana face now okay so i was looking at some of the latest research and there's research done by professor and detay from university of Nairobi he conducted research um i think it was about three years ago on 17 schools in Nairobi he had a sample size of a thousand 12 students and out of these he found that the the rate of bullying ranges between 63 and 82 percent 63 and 82 percent and 82 percent whereas if you compare say to australia it's between it lies between 15 and 20 percent and the u s super nice sign australia we should move to australia but if you say we need to burn each other up it's burning other women so why not be the coolest place to be so then in the u.s the stats lie between 15 and 30 and in fact the kenya compares to one of the provinces in south africa the free state whereby their experience um 84 percent bullying rate 84 percent bullying so we are sort of like competing all right i'm a number i'm a numbers guy all right for bullying to to happen you need a perpetrator and you need a victim and you need bystanders and you need bystanders so 84 percent that means bullies are more than the the victims it's the incident which no which means that which means that say the one thousand twelve students that were interviewed the sample that was researched upon the 84 percent reported to have experienced bullying wow yeah not not that the bullies are okay i guess your point now i guess your point yeah all right so you might have one bully bullying meaning yes so so like say in this room there's 20 of us and you you do your research and you find 18 have been bullied wow yeah that is the kind of country you live in that is a kind of country you're raising your child that is the kind of schools we have in this country so to make a better Kenya let's work with face up closely and you can find them at www.faceup that is up with you yes face up dot to dot com all right dot com is the is the global one is but the kenyan one is ke the kenyan one is ke all right be sure to get help from there and without much further ado thank you very much for coming can i just ask you a question before we part where you have a bullet uh were you a bully i was bullied okay but i also bullied a little bit so uh are we going to your stats are you going to feed me into your statistics i could i could maybe do research about on people within this broadcast station who have been bullied yes but i regret my actions i hope i'm forgiven thank you very much for watching uh strength of a woman in the morning uh color me while it's coming up next with another hot topic you don't want to miss it thank you