 Hey folks had a great chat with a lady called Benjamina Bolag today She's co-founder and CEO of a very cool company called Hire Stakes that basically makes meat in the lab They use state-of-the-art cell culture techniques They take a little bit of blood from an animal without hurting them without killing them and then grow the meat in the lab for human consumption Which is like super cool She's trying to revolutionise the way we can see meat Solving some of the world's most pressing problems, right? So we get loads of antibiotics in meat at the moment. There's climate change issues animal welfare So really cool and we have a chat around all of that good stuff and also how she's found being a young scientist pioneering and setting up a business trying to raise funding and all of that stuff So I hope you enjoy the podcast as much as I did Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast Enjoy our conversations anytime anywhere Cool. All right, and we're live. How you doing? I'm great. How are you? Really good. Thank you very much for coming in Thank you. Pleasure pleasure. So what is your background? So yeah, I'm Benjamina. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Hire Stakes I have a background in chemical engineering. I did my master's at Imperial Did some work in 3d printing in for instance. I bring that's a marketing work With PepsiCo some software development and startups. Nice. That was all off to university. Yeah. Um, no Some of it was any university and some after and then started my own company. We were basically Doing marketing and distribution around portable chargers to large hotel chains was working pretty well But I wanted to do something more impactful and also more scientific and engineering So I then joined an accelerator called entrepreneur first that takes you pre-id and pre-team. And this is in in the UK Yes, so they have it in the UK, but I also have it in Berlin in Paris in Hong Kong And you're from Switzerland exactly. Yeah, and then you came to the UK to study exactly Exactly. And so while I was there I was exploring ideas and came across the concept of cell waste me and for me it was Fascinating in terms of the impact we could have and at the same time I felt like all my past experience really fit well into that Especially I could see a real lack of engineering skills in the field So that's kind of how I got and when was this this was Around a year and a bit ago. So November 2017. Brilliant. So you met someone in the in the incubator. No After okay, so first started working with David Hay who's our scientific director? Okay, and the chair of the tissue engineering department at the University of Edinburgh and after the incubator I met Stephanie Who has a PhD modeling Alzheimer's disease and using the same type of cells that we're using Also, that's a work in biotech start. And is she your co-founder? Yes, she is brilliant. And did you know her before? No, I didn't really I went for a long month of recruiting interview loads of people Every possible way. I mean events contacts Contacts of contacts and Stephanie I found her by reaching out to her and LinkedIn and did lots of interviewing and That's really cool. Really cool. And then how come you decided to base the company in the UK? I mean, I was already here. Yeah, it made sense to kind of start here Yeah, but I have a couple of times thought, okay, do we want to move this? But it made a lot of sense. I think the talent in the UK is amazing Scientific talent. Yeah, exactly. So we have some of the best kind of research institutes for well research groups for first times our science for by processing for material science and all of the elements we need to create this Also, there's a lot of great companies that kind of we can work with And lots of grant opportunities from the government. Exactly. Exactly. So in Europe in general So it made a lot of sense to kind of stay here great and get this started here And so did the does the UK government offer incentives this like biotech companies to start here? Yeah, so we have There's something called the R&D tax credit. So you get about 33% back of everything you spend on R&D Which is nice when most of your spending Yeah, pretty much 90% of what we spend is kind of accountable for that and then there's also things like innovative UK that are really helpful Nice and then so where are you actually based? So I'm based in London, but our labs are based in Bristol. So Stephanie Is based in Bristol and is that within the university there? No, so it's a church to University of West England But it's a lab called future space Which has excellent facilities Really cheap rent nice So you rent you rent the lab space with all the equipment I mean most of the equipment that we need Great. It's just like a service office for labs. Exactly. Love it. Love it And so and so what problem did you want to solve when you started thinking about this? So there's a couple of problems. So maybe it's easier if I run through quickly how cell-based meat is made So that then I can talk about the problems without so The reasons the concept of cell-based meat was really started Is to address some of the biggest challenge from the meat industry address some of the environmental impacts it has like CO2 emissions land usage water usage address the antibiotic issue so 70% of antibiotics are used on animals Which is quite a lot Even in Europe where you know, there's less antibiotic use than in the US. There's still a huge amount address some of the issues around food foodborne diseases so things like salmonella mad cow disease African swine flu All of those And animal welfare. So improve the conditions Of animals and in our case, we don't need to kill any. Yeah. So those this is kind of what meant made the field grow But why we started is because there's a lot of kind of We wanted to address those issues, but there were a lot of technical challenges Still in the field before it can be commercialized. Okay So if I can maybe run through the process, it would be easier to explain those So depending on the cells that you're working with You'll get a sample from the animal In our case, we can take a tiny blood sample from the animal And you can then extract the cells that you want from it In our case working with induced lipid and stem cells, we reprogram them in a way that's non-genetically modified So stem cells you're taking? Well, we're first taking just a tiny blood sample and from there you can reprogram those cells To become induced lipid and stem cells that are similar basically to embryonic stem cells And those cells basically you can expand them infinitely And how long does it take? So it depends the animal So the larger the animal the longer it takes and the smaller the animal So it'll be different if you're working with let's say chicken then with cows And so you first expand them and you can then differentiate it So get it to like muscle get it to fat And tells the cells what you become and you do that in something called the medium And that medium is basically the nutrients for those cells that help it to grow and become those animals And what's the medium made from? So it'll be sugars, vitamins, proteins And everything basically it's trying to mimic a bit the blood So it's trying to mimic what's happening in the body So the whole field you're basically trying to do outside of the body What naturally happens in your body and animals body And there's no like animals involved in the media because I've heard some other similar companies use animal based media and So eventually the whole industry will get to a stage where we're not using fetal bovine serum We're in our labs already fetal bovine serum. What's it called? Fetal? Fetal bovine serum Which is basically extracted from the fetus Oh, okay, right. So it's not um, it's not the problem is not only it's not ethical um, but also There's not enough of it in the world to actually Produce this at large scale right and it's not consistent. So you want something That's more and more consistent if you want your kind of production to be very consistent Um, so I believe that all the companies will stop using it eventually And and so you use that from the start already. Yeah, so we already started um, we started with protocols Um that were taken from the university of minnesota That already worked without um fetal bovine serum Nice. And so where do you have like a manufacturing plant that you're doing this? Not yet. Um, so we expect to have our pilot plant Yeah, um, which is the step kind of if you want a mini manufacturing plant Yeah, um in about a year and a half Um, and have a proper plant in the next kind of three four years And so how big do the plants have to be to produce? I don't know like a ton of meat or like what are the plans? So today it's still very estimate. So yeah, now I'm working to get really like kind of precise um figures on that But it's estimated that about 15 meter cube Bioreactor can get you about 7,500 Kilograms of meat, but that's a very ambitious figure Um, and there's other things that will have to come kind of around those bioreactors Okay, and then you'll do that in the uk Um, we're still determining. Oh, okay, fine. We're determining where exactly we want to do. I think once Um, we're now looking to create kind of the plans for that plan Yeah, um, and once we have that we can really work on the techno economic assessments Um to look, you know, where is the best place to do that? Fine. So the moment you're Developing the process exactly exactly. So where are you at exactly with? So if you made your first piece of meat not yet Um, yeah, so we expect to do that by July. Okay. Um, the reason we're really working From the start with scalable technologies and we're making sure Yeah, as you mentioned the feed up event serum working without that means that our processes take slightly longer. Okay, right We want to be the first ones to really um to do a prototype with um poor sign induced lipid and stem cells um by Yeah in the next six months. Cool. And then what meat did you start with or have you? So we started with pork. Okay. Um, a couple of reasons for that. There is a lot of processed products with pork Um, a huge amount of the antibiotic use is um in pork Um, also, there's a lot of foodborne diseases. So there's the african swine um few that fluid that's A huge problem now in china Um, the growth of the market is really huge. Um, and at the moment, we're the only ones doing it We're up. Oh, okay. Fine. So so the african swine flu is like only in pig Is that yeah swine is Yeah, okay. Fine. Yeah shame my bad science knowledge Um, and then the pork consumption is going up in china. Yeah, it's going up globally Okay, right Fine good place to start. Yeah, and you're gonna do others as time goes on as well, or eventually. Yeah So we're now working on our really More having a deeper dive on our marketing plan on exactly when you want to move to species Because you have to consider that every species that we'll do we'll have to we go through kind of regulations With that. So the technologies that we're building Are more of like a platform type of technology where they work for really any species But it's more around regulations and around the manufacturing and everything that comes with that That that is the challenge when moving from Yeah And do you see this as being more sustainable and eco friendly and like for sure the future of how we're going to consume Yes, otherwise I wouldn't be doing this But I think there are some challenges that we need We need to address the The good thing that we have is that we're starting from scratch. So when we develop our plans We can develop it to make sure that it's really in a made in a sustainable way That we think exactly, you know, do we want to maybe put it The location of the plant is somewhere where it makes sense for the water users somewhere where it makes sense for electricity To get to it In a sustainable way. So we have the chance to Think about all this and we have a lot more flexibility around that You would have with So we talked about no animals are killed. Yeah, no animals are harmed during the process No, so I mean you've made you've had a blood check, right? Yeah, it's you need less blood. It kills it kills So it's just that no animals are harmed and then as you mentioned water and electricity and so forth. Yeah, so compared to like Killing meat and etc We can't say so there's been some studies that have been made that estimated around 90 reduction Um in co2 emissions in water usage Um, and I think for um an inland usage and electricity was about 45 percent, but those studies Were very general and we're you know, we're made using pharmaceutical processes Different companies will have different. Um, so it's called a life cycle assessment where basically you kind of Look at each element that you putting through in your process And what's the environmental footprint of that? Okay, and so no one's like more advanced than you yet? Um people are but no one is yet selling. Um, okay, fine. Yeah, okay And why is it better for your health? Um, so there's no antibiotics. There's um on the antibiotics and so how does a lot get into the Into the animal. Yeah Well, some animals are produced without antibiotics, but a lot of them are so yeah, and that eventually you get that there's Um, no kind of we screen for everything like salmonella all of the foodborne diseases So obviously if you leave your meat for like five weeks outside, like you won't get foodborne diseases But you have a lot because it's made in a clean environment. You have a lot less chances of that Um, now the one thing we can work on is having for example, like healthier fats But it's a really play between Between what the consumer wants so if they want really kind of greasy bacon Then obviously it won't be healthy. But if they want, you know pure pretty much muscle Then we can do something that's much healthier. Um, we can you know, incorporate more vitamins we can Um, I had for example omega-3 is rated in trans fats and crazy So you can actually make it however you want. Yeah And what's the taste like? Um, I mean it tastes the same Exactly the same. Yeah, I mean depends what you're doing. So obviously today we're around kind of sausages and Burgers, so it's like Was that what people are? Yeah, so more processed meats. Yeah. Um, so it's easier to mimic the taste. Okay Wacky beef Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we will be able eventually to do that, but The industry is not there yet. Okay. So that like the texture and taste of a steak You'd be able to tell difference. Um today. Yes, because today You haven't white to have to like exactly but in in theory, you know Okay, because like because I guess normally as an animal gets older the muscles get worked and the meat changes The muscle so the muscle you can work in a lab. You can do electric simulation You can do mechanical stimulation. So you can work the muscle. That's not the problem Because if you look at your steak, there's lots of different You know cells cell types in it. There's your blood vessels I mean all the things you don't want to think about But there's a lot of kind of complexity and different types of cells that come into place. Um And that's the the really the difficulty and in create we mimicking that and the marbling and amazing But that's not too far away from No, um, but a few years away Okay. And do you think vegans or vegetarians or both would end up eating it? Well depends why you're vegan. Um, if you're vegan or vegetarian Because of ethical concerns Um, then most likely yes, because you're not Harrowing any animals. Um, but some people just don't like the taste and some people haven't eaten, you know Meat for 40 years. So going back to me feels just weird For them, but for us our kind of primary target market is more meat eaters. Yeah, fine And then halal kosher Well with pork, um Pork's not kosher anyway. I mean there's been one rabbi. Um that has said that it is but I mean it's With pork, it will be a lot more disputed. I think Um Very unlikely. Um, but when you're talking about you're more typical So with chicken with beef, then yes Interesting. Well, so the rapper has said yeah, yeah, quite a few. Um, actually with halal there's been more dispute. Um, but With with that you kind of want to look at it in a way So either um, you can really take the cells once it's um, once it's slaughtered But it's still kind of debatable, but you kind of want to look at it as it's not meat Which great news would you would you mean? So you kind of want to look at it that it's not So you're selling in a way a different story where you're considering this as not being meat. So being if you want Um, the same as like bread or things like that, which means for yeah in jewish tradition. You can eat it with milk Which is great. Oh, what you do think you'll be able to eat it with milk Interesting. Wait, so how so why do they regard it as not meat because the animal hasn't been killed? Exactly. So the cells, um, yeah because The cells are not living anymore when you're really eating it and it's Yeah, well, even though like they're cells from an animal Yeah, grain in the grain in the lab. They regard it more as what they call it para for yeah Yeah, interesting And then what about uh for halal then? Um, I mean it's similar Similar to kosher. It's just there's been a bit more dispute about that Yeah, um, if people are still yeah working on interesting If the animal was killed in a halal way and then they and then you take the cells. Yeah Is that um, it should be yeah, maybe it should be but it's better usually to work with um With life cells with yeah, fine How have you found um running a startup? I mean it's difficult but no matter what you do really it's difficult, right? Yeah, yeah all startups Are difficult. So I think um, I found it not harder to do what I'm doing now than my old startup, which was A lot simpler in a way um, so yeah, I mean the challenges we have are similar challenges than you know every Every startup is um, especially any other kind of biotech. Yeah. Yeah So you've always done startups, right? What would drive you to Just say I'm just gonna do something on my own. I'm not gonna get a normal job. I'm just gonna I think it's I'm more of a generalist person In a way, I like a lot getting to the stage where I know what I don't know But without needing to be really a specialist in one single field And that's one of the kind of drivers on top of the kind of impact drives Of running this business is that there are so many fields to think about you When I think about the science and the science is divided, you know by The cell science the engineering The materials, I mean there's and and more Looking at the legal aspect the consumer the marketing On top of like fundraising hiring and all of that. So all these aspects together Yeah, so you wanted to you wanted to be kind of at the kind of macro level Coordinating and not getting too deep into Being in the lab all day and exactly fine. So it's your first hire then was a scientist. So they could crack on with developing a Senior science Okay, and we're now recruiting if Anyone is listening is the biomaterial or bioprocess engineer We're recruiting cool. So how many do you have at the moment? Um, so at the moment, there's three of us full time David. Hey, that's part time. Okay. Um, and we actually And these are science roles. Yeah. Yeah, and we have two volunteers as well on the business side Nice. And what do they do? Um, so one of them is helping us Around the marketing. Okay. Um, sorority brussel and clary's She's also Helping a bit around the marketing a bit around recruiting also around the business and more Brilliant. She's got a really nice team around you. Yeah, and so from day one, you've got people around you with different skill sets to help Amazing advisors as well that have helped us be from day one. So these kind of like mentors exactly Have you found them useful? Yes, very. Um, some are more technical some are in business, but they've helped us a lot Great. So what they spend what they sit down with you every quarter or something and um, usually every month some Some more some less nice and then how's the funding and fundraising and Coming along. Yeah. So we've raised a hundred and fifty thousand great Up to date and I've put in money myself and we're now raising a larger seed round Um, which is coming along. We're getting some interesting attractions. Awesome. Yes. So that's the next that's soon. Yeah Oh, yeah, definitely. So if anyone's invest Cool. Um, so is that the major next hurdle now? So you've got it going. You've got the science Fine, so what are the other major? Um, so yeah, I'm recruiting and Now we want to do that prototypes of getting through Um to working and getting the poor sign cells to work properly Yeah, fine And so it's recruiting being a challenge to actually find people with the right background or attract them to a startup But what's been there? Yeah, I mean so the challenge is there is so many really good people Um, but because we're such a small team we need very kind of specific skills and there's no one to really train people Um, so we have less flexibility of saying, okay, you'll learn this when you know as you go along Um, and we need a lot more like, okay, you have to already know what you're doing Which makes it a bit more to someone experience exactly, but at the same time with the start of mindset and motivation Yeah, yeah happy to just get on unsupervised Exactly they could be working from anywhere, I guess No, they need to be Got to be done in in uh In bristol fine. What's the talent market like for scientists down in bristol? Um, so luckily as well a lot of scientists don't mind moving. Um, and bristol university has some great great talent as well So great hasn't been too much of a challenge from that perspective. Are you finding any any like europeans or Wanting to come. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we've had quite a few interviews Great all around here despite brexit and yeah Brilliant. Yeah, I mean people I think from as well around the world. We've had people interviewing from the us as well and from asia, so That hasn't been too much of a challenge. Yeah. Yeah, excellent. When when will I be able to eat a piece of your meat? So commercially, um, we're looking at three to four years From from now from now because we need to go through before we're able to do this commercially We have to go through regulations So that it should take about a year and a half To to get approved exactly and then you can start selling exactly and then you'll be selling to supermarkets So we'll start with restaurants right and later move to supermarkets. Okay. How come? Um, so restaurants requires well like smaller production It's easier to have control of kind of how it's cooked Um at the beginning so making sure that you know people are comfortable and it brings that image as well To start with high end restaurant and brings that image of kind of this is a high value product. Yeah Which helps and will the price be In the end the same Or you're gonna be slightly So we'll start with organic, um, organic kind of prices. Uh, and hopefully in the future We expect it to go lower than you Fine and so organic prices are what like 10 20 percent or something more? Um, then no more No nearly that double. I didn't mean double. Wow nearly Wow Okay, so you go high in restaurants Yeah, interesting. Well, good luck. Lovely to speak to you Um, and um, I look forward to watching your journey and getting you on the podcast again soon. Yes. Thank you very much Thank you so much Hey folks, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places