 I noticed that some people actually thought that I had been using clickbait. I'm not, I'm not using clickbait at all. You all know my stance when it comes to salvation, when it comes to terms of security. And I was sent an email by a viewer, and let me just go ahead and read a little bit of it. His name is Louis Ward, who believes that my understanding is incorrect and believe I won't read it all. Let's see, says I would like to challenge you on your one-saved-always-safe false teaching. However, I want this to be under two conditions. I won't go over the conditions, but he's all, well, I'll tell you in a second. He says, you agree to be a godly man and to admit you are wrong on the spot, which I will. If I am incorrect, then I will do so. And so we're going to deal with this assertion that I've made from John 10, 28, as well as other passages as well. But John 10, 28 is the one that I've staked my claim on. That, if I can be proven wrong, then I'll admit it. If my understanding, my assertion, my Greek exegesis of John 10, 28, or my application of the particular rule is correct. Now, someone did even tell me today, and I kind of went back and forth with the person, when I said to them, when I said to them that, speaking about the Greek text and so forth, the person made the mention of the Hebrew text and that the Hebrew texts are, there was an earlier Hebrew text, but there is no early Hebrew text. And so the Greek text is the text that takes preeminence over any text. The earliest Hebrew texts of the New Testament happened in the fourth, I think fourth, the latter part of the fourth century, which is the Pesheta. We don't have any that predate the Greek New Text, the Greek New Testament texts. So that being the case, now, I see someone who says this, what is a school for the prophet says you won't, let's see what he says, you won't admit you are wrong. Not a lot of people will admit when they are wrong, will you, will you, that the invitation's open to anyone, anyone where they have a channel or not. I believe if I'm correct, you do, you are more than welcome to come on board and do what this brother's gonna do as well. Now, if you think I'm wrong, all you gotta do is prove it. You can't tell me I'm wrong and then have me go with that, right? Now, I've answered every passage that people have thrown my way. This passage, not even you, sir, school for prophets have answered. Now, if you think you can, then you are more than welcome to come on board and to have at it. But with that being said, I want to bring on my guest, Mr., make sure I said the last thing correctly. Yeah, Louis Ward, who believes I'm incorrect. So, Brother Louis, how are you doing today, brother? I'm doing just fine, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Okay, okay. Wait a second, too much prove me wrong attitude. It's not a prove me wrong attitude. Wait, I'll look at this guy one last time. It's not a prove me wrong attitude that you made the assertion, brother. And so, I'm sorry that I have a set of beliefs. I have a set of beliefs that I should not be forced to move from unless you prove I'm wrong. That's just normal adult thinking. Do you believe that water is wet? Yes, you do, until someone proves you wrong. That's how this works. So, that being said, again, you are more than welcome to come on. If not, please, I'll just ask you graciously, remain silent. How about that? Now, that being stated. I had to get that out of the way. That being stated, brother Louis is also in Texas. I got to ask you one question before we start. Are you a Cowboys fan? Oh, no, man, I'm a 49ers fan. Okay, I was gonna- rough Sunday. It felt a little bit better with the Cowboys losing as well. So, no one can give me a hard time at work. You all right with me? Okay, so now. All right, okay. I'll go ahead and let you start. I'm gonna go ahead and pull back in a little bit, but you believe that my understanding of John 1028 is invalid or you will invalidate it. How so? Yes, sir. Okay, so I believe in my premises not that you are interpreting John 1028 incorrectly. I believe that you're applying it to the wrong discussion. So, I believe that always save, one save would always save and eternal security are two different discussions. They're two different questions. And I believe eternal security is talking about Christians. And I believe one save, always save is talking about being a Christian and not being a Christian. So, those are two different discussions. And I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. If I were to ask you what your favorite flavor ice cream is and you told me vanilla, and then I said, well, why don't you like chocolate? Well, you didn't tell me you didn't like chocolate. I didn't ask you if you didn't like chocolate. I just assumed you didn't like chocolate. So, I'm asking the wrong question if I wanted to know why you didn't like chocolate. So, I'll just go ahead and go to the scripture if you don't mind. And I'll break down the scripture and then maybe we can come to an understanding about a little bit closer to what I'm talking about. You're okay. So, okay, very good. Okay, so John chapter 10 verse 28. And what I think is important to do in this situation is to back up a little bit and go to verse 27. And it says, my sheep listened to my voice, says I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand. So, I'm not a genius, but I'm pretty good with English. And I know this is Greek as well. I'm sure Greek follows a lot of the same rules. When we break down a sentence, we ask questions. And that's how we get to what information we're getting out of the sentence. So, the topic of the sentence that the pronouns cover is sheep. Sheep are Christians. So, if we input Christian into any place we find they or them, then we start to get some information. So, if we back up to 27 and we say my sheep listened to my voice, what do sheep do? They listen to my voice. Then we go and it says, I know sheep. I know the Christians, I know them. And Christians follow me. I give Christians eternal life and Christians shall never perish. No one can snatch Christians out of my hand. Now, we just answered all those questions right there. The one question that's not talked about there is can a Christian stop being a Christian? Can a sheep stop being a sheep? It was never asked, it was never implied. I didn't care if, I didn't ask you if you didn't like chocolate ice cream. I asked you what your favorite ice cream was. And so, I think this is a perfect scripture for eternal security. Yes, what do Christians get they get eternal life? Christians hear his voice. Christians, they follow him. Christians can't be plucked out of their, out of his hand but nowhere in there does it discuss can a sheep stop being a sheep? And it's just not implied in this. And I think if we imply it in this scripture, I think we're not staying with the spirit of what the questions that are being answered with the scripture are. So that's my issue with this. It's not that you're wrong about it being eternal security. It's just eternal security in one safe, always safe. They're really two different questions with two different results. So let me get, let's see if I can catch you straight. You're saying as long as a person is a Christian then they'll always be safe. But if they stop being a Christian then they won't be safe. That's correct. That's what the question would be about. One safe, always safe, that is the question. Now, I think that that's exactly what we've been saying. I think that that might, you make a difference that I don't think very many people do, but fine. Well, I can go with that. And so the question is, do Christians ever stop being Christians? Do sheep ever stop being sheep? I even covered this a few days ago when I just kind of played around with it. Us sheep is says we always sheep is says. We all, we all would, once a sheep always a sheep according to the scripture. We're gonna look at that in a second. The issue is does a Christian ever stop believing? Now, we'll come back to this text in just a little bit, but I wanna ask you a couple of questions. I wanna ask you a couple of questions. In the last day, God is going to open a book, this book of life. What is he going to see? I'm asking you, and I'm going somewhere with this. He's either gonna see our name or he's gonna see a name that's blotted out. Okay, okay, we'll get to the blotted out part, but he's gonna look and find names. The names that are in that book, where did the, when were those names put in that book? That's a good question. I can't answer that question, to be honest with you, but I do agree there'll be names there. I'm sorry? Does the Bible answer that question? I misunderstood. I'm saying, does the Bible answer that question? I'm not aware of that. I would be open to hear that. Okay, in two passages, especially John 13, I mean, John writes in Revelation 13, 8, as well as Revelation 17. Now, let's put it on the screen. And he says, and all who dwell on the earth will worship it, speaking of worshiping the beast, and everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Very good. So here we have a password that tells us that these names were written before the foundation of the world. Then we go to chapter 17, verse eight. The same thing is repeated. The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction and dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast. And so the issue is not what they're talking about there, it's just the fact that it makes mention that these names will have been written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. But then you say that he'll see two things. He'll see names that were written in and names that were blotted out. Is there a passage that tells us that names will be blotted out? We have a warning about not having our name blotted out. Where? And I believe the revel, when we're talking about the message to the seven churches. John three five. Let me turn revelation, revelation three five. Let me revelation three five. Yeah, I'm sorry, I keep saying John. He wrote it, but. That's all right. Okay, so let's put that on here. Okay. Can you see it? I wanna make sure you can see it as well. Yes, sir. Okay, so he says the one who conquers or overcomes, depending on your translation, will be clothed thus in white garments. And he says, I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my father and before his angel. So now you say that that tells us that that's a warning that our names will be blotted out? No, actually, I think you just made a good point. I didn't read it that way before. And that that's a strong point. You win that definitely win that point because he doesn't say about that almost seems like it matches your eternal security point, which it still doesn't deal with, it still doesn't deal with one save always save, but it does strengthen the eternal security argument, which we don't agree, we don't disagree with that. We both agree on eternal security. We're actually getting there. We're getting there. So the names we agree the names in the book of life that he's gonna read off, that he's gonna find were written before the world began, before the foundation of the world. So I don't mean to stop your point because I know you're going somewhere and I'm gonna let you keep going there, but are you a Calvinist? No, no. Okay, cause a lot of Calvinists believe in free, free destination. That's why I'm asking. Cause it almost sounds like that's where you're going. Calvinists aren't the only ones that believe in predestination or election. Calvinists believe that Jesus Christ, Calvinists believe that Jesus Christ out on the cross. And so there are a lot of things that I'll agree with with Calvinists. I'll agree with Armenians and so forth. I'll agree with Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians. A lot of things that we're gonna agree with. And so there are a few areas that I disagree with Calvinism or even the reform group as a whole. But on this, I think we all do agree. And so we agree that when he opens a book, he's gonna see names that were written in the book of life from the beginning of the earth. Right? And that here it says that he will never block their names out. Okay? Now, you brought it up. So let's go there. What do you think about predestination? What is your understanding of predestination? I don't have an opinion on predestination. I actually believe that there's, I believe that sometimes man can know a little bit too much and I think we should just have faith and just and trust God. And I don't believe one way or another on predestination. I believe if we love him and we obey him, we will be saved. Whether we predestined before birth to be saved and it's locked in or whether or not it's our choice, I really don't, I don't think that's really that important to me. I understand it's a discussion, but I don't think it's something that we have to divide over and it's something that I just don't take an opinion on. Well, here's the reason why I think it's important. The main reason why I think it's important is because in the Bible, and so it's there for our benefit, our understanding. And so we have to deal with it because he makes some statements about it that if one understanding of predestination is correct, then there cannot be a loss of salvation. Now, there's another understanding of predestination that people believe that I also think they don't realize that also backs up my point. And so let's go to Romans 8, 29. And now I'll read it off. You tell me what you think and I'll let the audience also say what they think. And I'll give you all my opinion as well. It says verse 29, for those who, as a matter of fact, let's back up a little bit. Let's start verse 26. Likewise, the spirit helps us, that's us believers in our weaknesses, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought. But the spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches the heart knows what is the mind of the spirit because the spirit intercedes for the saints, that's us, according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for the good, for those who are called, and that's interesting where I won't harp on that, that I'll take this discussion for another hour, according to his purpose. For those, we already know who those are, the saints, for those whom he foreknew, and this is an issue that people have an issue with or make a problem out of this issue of foreknew, but we'll come back to that in a second. For those he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the first among many brothers. And he says, in those whom he predestined, he also called. So he calls those who are predestined, and those whom he called, he justified. So the people that ultimately get justified are those who are predestined. They were justified, they were called, they were predestined, predestined to be called to be justified, and those whom he justified, he glorified. And the word justified simply means to be declared right and treated as such. So my question is, do you have an understanding of what do you think that means when he says those whom he foreknew, he predestined, then he says he predestined us to be called and then called to be justified? Well, when I said a few minutes ago that I didn't have an opinion, I have to be honest, I do lean one a little bit further away from predestination, so I have to kind of retract that. I'll have to say that, well, I believe God is all-knowing, not all-doing. And the reason I say that is I believe he gives us free will. And I think he knows the end from the beginning, he knows what we're gonna do, but he doesn't control us to do it. He'll help us, he'll guide us, he'll strengthen us, but I don't believe that in the end he forces us to do his will, that wouldn't be love. So I have to say I disagree on that point about the predestination argument. What do you mean? The predestination argument, I believe he has a destination for us, but at the same time, I don't think that he forces us to take that destination. Okay, do you think when it says he foreknew us, those who foreknew, he also predestined? The word predestined just means what it is, it means to destined ahead of time, to destined. That's him doing it. Now, some will say that that must mean that who disagree with election, that he sees, he foresees ahead of time what we will do and then predestines us. Some say that he foreknows or foreordains us ahead of time to be predestined. That's the only, there's only two places you really can go with that. And so it sounds like you might lean on that he foresees ahead of time, because you said he's all seen, we're not all doing, that he sees what we're going to do. And then based on that, he predestines us. Sorry to interrupt you. If we look at examples, and I think we can both agree that God never changes. I believe that we're playing under a different set of rules because either the sun died for us, but I believe his is the way he responds to sin, and the way he responds with free will has never changed. If we look back in the Old Testament, I'm not gonna go into the scriptures, but I'm just gonna give you the stories that just bolster my argument. We look at King Saul, and we look at the fact that he called Saul. And he repented, as he called Saul. He was upset that he had made him King because Saul sinned against him. God knew Saul was gonna sin against him, but he still said, hey, I had a destination for you. You could have had your kingdom could have lasted this long or that long, and you did this, and I'm removing it from you. I'm giving it to another. So I believe that God has intentions for us all. And if we fulfill those intentions, I believe that is up to us. I believe it is our decisions that go that direction. Okay, the only thing about Saul, I would say, is that even before there was a Saul, and before Saul did anything good or bad, God had already determined that the scepter should not depart from Judah, and Saul is out of the tribe of Benjamin. And so he had already determined ahead of time that the scepter, that the kingdom would go through Judah. And so Saul was not going to be, it was not gonna go against what God had already determined way back in the early parts or the middle part of Genesis when Jacob tells his sons that the scepter should not depart Judah, but that being stated. So you're saying with regards to predestination that he sees what we're going to do, and then based on that, God then predestines us, right? No, I'm saying God gives us a destination, and he's, but at the same time, he also sees what we're going to do. So I'm saying the predestination part comes first, but the allowance of free will is, we can veer off the course. He gives us the map and says, here's your map. This is what I expect from you, and we can go right or left based on our own free will that he gives us, which is it's actually grace and mercy that gives us free will at the same, it's love to be able to allow his creation to have free will. Okay, so on what basis though, are you saying that God destines us? Is it based on? That I can't answer? Well, cause it's, cause it's what, we might be stuck. He's got a basis destination, his destiny of us either on our will, what we do, or him determining we'll do this. Well, I think, I don't think we can answer that question fairly. I think what we have to do is we have to go to examples of how God operates. So when we look through the scriptures, and we see how God operates, and we see where he gives people missions and decisions, and then he has to go them into doing things, like making Jonah end up in a well. You know, he wanted them to go to Nineveh, but he didn't want to go. So he said, all right, I'm gonna make this storm, and I'm gonna make them throw you off the ship, and then you're gonna end up in a well, and then you're gonna figure it out eventually. So I believe God, he has a plan, he has a plan, and we either have to go by that plan, or he'll, don't get me wrong, for his purpose, he pushes us, he disciplines us. I get disciplined when I sin all the time, and I look up, I say, okay, Lord, all right, I get it. That didn't work out of my favor, because I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I think he does that to the people he loves, the people that are believers. But we gotta figure out this word, though, Louis. We have to figure out this word, this word, predestination. I agree. And so if the word, as a matter of fact, let's put it on the screen again, as a matter of fact, let's even do a quick little study over that particular word, this word, predestination. This is the word pro-racian. And so let's see what the word means. Let's go to, let's go to the B-DAG, which is kind of the authority on this. And so this word, let me make it big enough for you guys to see if it's over here. This word, where is it? Okay, it means, if y'all can see over to the left-hand side, it says to decide beforehand. Predetermine, okay? So now, so this word means that God decided, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't put it on the screen. I'm sorry, guys, I thought I had it on the screen. I'm sorry, let me undo all of that that I just did so you guys can see what I just did. I'm sorry, guys, I'm sorry. So the word that we're looking at is, uh-oh, I went to the wrong one, is this word here, pro-racian, pro-racian, I'm sorry. Let's click on it and let's go to the B-DAG. Let's open it up and let's just see what the word means. If y'all look over to the left-hand side, it says to decide upon beforehand. To predetermine, okay? That's what the word means. Now, some are gonna come back and say though, because on what basis did God decide beforehand? And on what basis did God predetermine us to be conformed into the image of the sun? On what basis did God predetermine that, what was the passage, that we should be justified? On what basis did he do that? Was it because he looked forward and saw something that we were going to do? Or irrespective of what he saw, he chose us to become saved? In other words, did he see that we were gonna be saved? And then, or did he see that we were gonna choose him? And then he determined that we would be Christians? He saw we would choose him, then he chose us, or did he choose us before we chose him? I would contend, let's just take for example, somebody that's on a street corner right now, somebody that's in drugs, somebody that's out there sinning. How do we know that he didn't predestine them for something great? They didn't make a left instead of a right. How do we know that he didn't predestine everyone to see his glory and for everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth and their decisions didn't keep them from doing it? I mean, we're talking like we're the only ones just because we know the truth. But once again, I think we're missing one thing here. And I think the fact is if we can show in the scriptures that it's possible for people to go against what is predestined for them, we'll use, we'll go down that road with predestination. If we can, first of all, predestination isn't an action based on the person, in this particular instance, based on the person that's predestined. God is predestined, like say, if I say, Cory, I'm predestining you to be at this place at this time on this day, that you need to be at this location. That doesn't mean you have to go there, okay? I'm just saying, I'm selecting you and I'm calling you out to meet me here and I'm gonna give you a million dollars. If you meet me here at this time, congratulations. You've been selected and predestined to be a millionaire. If you don't go there and get your million dollars, you turned away, you turned left, you didn't turn right. So while I agree that God predestines us, he knows us when we were created in the womb, before the foundation of the world, I disagree that we don't have a say so on this. It wouldn't make any sense for us to be judged if he already knew who was gonna do right and wrong, or if he already made it to where we were gonna do right and wrong before we even knew we could do it or not. Okay, with the only problem- So that's the reason why I disagree. The only problem with that is that the word predestination means to predetermine, to determine ahead of time what will be. And so there is no, as a matter of fact, there's no such example in the Bible where God has predetermined something to happen and it did not happen. I'm not one of these people that are determinists who believe that God has determined every sin, like he determined that I would wear this maroon sweater or that he determined that I'd have these, or that you'd have on blue day. That's not what I believe. Do I believe that there is some volition in us, the ability to move and choose? Sure, but in terms of who he has determined, who he has sovereignly chosen, by the way, interestingly enough, immediately after this chapter in Romans 8, he starts talking about somebody that he has determined who he has chosen ahead of time. He speaks about Isaac and Jacob, I'm not Isaac and Jacob, Jacob and Esau. He speaks about Israel. He speaks about us as believers. And so he does determine the issue because your question was, is there anybody that we can find that he determined to do something and they did not do it? Now, but now the question, the argument, the counter argument would be, well, yeah, he determines only after he sees what we're going to do. There's only two options available. He determines what we're going to be based on seeing what we're going to do or he determines it and then we become what he determines. There's only two options. I would like, I would love to come back to this part of the discussion. What I'm going to do is I'm going to give this to you, that let's say God, let's just go to push it forward. Let's say God does predetermine and there's predetermination. How exactly does that go, walk me through how that becomes all, one save, always save. That's what I would like to see. Now, I'm going down this track for a particular reason, and with these questions in mind. And as a matter of fact, it would not have mattered which way you would have answered. Let's say if a person would have said that no, God chooses based on what the word for knowledge means is that he sees ahead of time, he foresees what you're going to do and then based off of what you've done, then he predetermines or he predestines you. Okay, so then my question is then, because you've answered, and everyone else answers this question pretty much the same way, that he can also blot us out of the book. Then my question is, if our names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, but then we say that he predestines us based on seeing that we will choose him, how does he then turn around and blot us out of the book if we stop choosing and if we stop believing, if he saw that we were going to believe in him in the first place? That meant that God's view, his sight, his omniscience only went so far. It only went so far to see that we trusted in him one time, but he didn't see far enough to see that we were going to stop believing in him, which is why he had to come back up, oh, take his eraser and blot our names out of the book. It would contradict someone's understanding of predestination. Now, my understanding of predestination, which is what the word, there's no getting around what the word means. The word means to determine in advance, to determine before anything that's done. And we know this happens before the world even existed, according to what we read in Revelation as well as Ephesians. And so we know that he is determining ahead of time. God has that right. God has the ability to do what God, this is what I believe. God believes that we all have a choice. Some folks keep saying that I don't believe that we have a will. I believe we've got the ability to make choices. I really do. However, I also believe that given the opportunity, we will never choose Christ. You know how I know that? Because he says, there are none that seek after me. He says, we didn't choose him, but he chose us. We loved him only after he first loved us. And then if we go and look and see what God says, the remedy for this heart issue that the children of Israel had, as well as everyone else is there, our hearts are wrong. And so what does he have to do? He regenerates, he gives us a brand new heart and thereby giving us a new disposition. And then we choose him. And he says, so therefore all of us that are born of him were not born in John, not born according to our will, of flesh or blood, but according to God's will. Now, if that means that we were predetermined ahead of time to, let's put the passage back on the screen. If we were predetermined or predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, that means we were predestined to become believers. In order that, here's the important part, that he, that's Jesus, might be the first born among many brethren. I'm sorry, I don't have it on screen. So he says that he predestined us to be conformed to the image of his son. In order that we might be the first born among many brethren. In order to be the first born as we find out that Jesus is the first born of the first fruits of the dead, meaning that he's the first to be raised from the dead and then to ascend to heaven. No one preceded Jesus in heaven. That's why he said in John 3, speaking Nicodemus, no one's in heaven. Not even Enoch, not even Elijah. They were taken up without into heaven. He said, so no one has gone there yet. And so after his death, their resurrection and then subsequent ascension, the entire body of believers who are dead in Christ, they rise. Are you with me? And so he becomes the first born, but look what else he says. He says that, and those whom he predestined, that's us, he also called and those whom he called, he also justified and then also glorified. This word justified means to be declared right and treated as such. And so how then does he justify as he predestined us to be justified, but then turns around and unjustifies us? Well, why would you justify us in the first place? Are you with me? And so that proves also that we cannot lose our salvation. Now, the next question I did want to ask is this, if a person can be a Christian and then stop being a Christian, if a person can be a believer and stop being a believer, what was the Holy Spirit doing in that believer during that entire time? Well, we've been warned about quenching, about suppressing the Holy Spirit and grieving the Holy Spirit. So, I mean, that's a warning that was made. You know, so I think we have to heed that warning, right? I believe so too. I believe so too. But does that mean also though that if we quench the Holy Spirit, if we grieve the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit kicks us out? I mean, can't we disappoint God and still be children of God? I'm glad you brought that up. I don't want to leave where you're at because I think the discussion where you're at is really good. I'm actually learning a lot, seeing it from a different point of view because I never really thought, like I told you before, I didn't have much opinion on predestination. I'm seeing that that's probably something I need to dive into in order to have more of this discussion. I think I disagree on you about how in depth the predestination is. I believe the predestination is God's purpose for us, not necessarily our action. So, he says, I've called you Moses to do this and do that and Moses had a choice. And I think the same thing is happening with us today. But what I believe is, and like I said, you're making value arguments, you're making great arguments. It's a solid argument. It's one that I can't just say it's wrong. So, it's debatable and it's something that I would have to dig further into. But what I believe is if we can show situations or we can show examples of Christ himself taking Christians, actual Christians and their believers and telling them that they might not be believers anymore, do you think that would be pretty strong evidence? That it's quite a possibility? Yeah, you know what you're absolutely right. Not even a group of believers. If we could just find one, then that would be pretty strong proof. Let me lay out one of my arguments. I won't jump around. I'm just gonna go to one script. I had a bunch of scriptures, but I agree with you. I don't wanna jump around. I wanna go to my strongest argument and lay it out. Let's go to Revelation chapter two, verse four. Two, verse four. Okay. And he's talking to the churches of Asia and he's talking to, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I think I told you wrong there. Give me one second here. No, I was right, I'm sorry about that. Okay, so he's talking to the church of Ephesus and can we agree that the church of Ephesus, these are a body of believers. Is that possible to agree on that? This is a body of believers, this is a church, yes. Okay, so these are Christians. These are believers, these are people. Okay, now let's look at the words of our Lord and let's go straight to verse four. We'll go ahead and read the whole thing because I think it's important. To the angel, the angel of the church of Ephesus, right? These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, which is something you do for, I appreciate that. Let me jump back in there. And have found them false, you have persevered and have endured hardships for my name and have not grown weary. He says, yet I hold this against you. You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height which you have fallen. Repent and do the things you did at first. If you don't repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from his place. That sounds pretty serious. There's only seven churches with lampstands and he's talking about coming and taking it. Now I can't misrepresent this and say that this is their salvation but it sounds pretty serious to me and it sounds like he's doing a serious judgment against them and these are Christians and these are believers and he said they left their first love and it says they have fallen. And I don't know the Greek on this. It says to repent to your first works which means they were doing something at first now they're not. And he says, but they don't go back to doing what they were doing before. He's gonna come and take their lampstand. He says to repent. So what if they don't repent? He's giving them the option here. He's not saying you're predestined. He said, hey, if you don't do this, I'm gonna do that. What do you think about that? What happens to a believer who is supposed to be light who's supposed to show love which they clearly have fallen from their first love? What happens to them? Well, the question we gotta figure out is what is meant by lampstand? What is meant by lampstand? Good question. There's another passage that I'm thinking of that Jesus also speaks of when he says that we are the light of the world and that as a light, what do we do with a light? It's to be put on a lampstand above to shine light. They're not doing this, right? And so what did Jesus say he's gonna do? Put the light out, no, remove their lampstand. As a body, as a church, you will cease to exist. Here's the question. This church is the church where? Where church is this? In Ephesus. Is that church around? Was that church around shortly after? No, no, no. But to be fair, the other seven churches aren't either and one of them he gave some high praises to and I don't think they're around anymore. I'm just, they might be, but I don't think they are. He says, but I have this against you that you have abandoned your first love. Now, I don't take this as them losing their salvation. I'm taking them as them living life as what Jesus called a good for nothing Christian. A good for nothing Christian is a person. I'm sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I was gonna stop you at that point so I didn't forget where we were at there. Can you guarantee this isn't them losing their salvation? Is this a guarantee of yours? And I know this is unfair, Corey, because I've listened to you for over a year and I've heard your arguments and I'm dropping this on, you probably haven't heard, anybody uses argument yet. And so it's unfair to you for you just to come out of nowhere with an answer, but I'm asking you just off. Yeah, I'm just asking you, obviously you haven't had time to do any, I'm just saying you haven't had any time to do any research on this particular argument I'm making. Is it possible they're losing it? Anybody in that church is losing their salvation. Is that possible? I don't see. Based on what you just read. Let's do this, let's do this real quick. Matter of fact, I haven't done this, but I believe we can go ahead and do this anyway. Let me type in something. Alrighty. And let's just see. There's only one other time that the word lampstand is used. And that is, that's an actual, a literal lampstand, okay? That's the only time that that is used. Now, what most believe, I won't say all because everyone disagrees that it's on something, but what most believe is that the lampstand is just them being this vessel to hold them as a light, which is the church, the actual gathering, okay? And he says, I will come and take it from you. Jesus calls people, the only other time that Jesus uses this term, this lampstand, this phrase is when Jesus is speaking about Christians who are not being a light to the world. And he says, you are worthless or good for nothing and you should be thrown out and thrown on the foot by men, not that they're not Christians, but you're not doing your job. And so if you're not doing your job, then, and this is just me, my vernacular, you're just taking up space, goodbye. And so that would be the same thing. Otherwise, what use are you other than like we have today, just a big building, big edifice, nice choir, nice vans and buses and so forth, but that's it. No gospel, no safe, no gospel not to save people. And that's what we see here. He says, I know you have this. He says, so I meant, let's put it back on the screen. I know your works are tall and your patience. And so verse three, I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake and have not grown. So he says, I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, but I have this against you, that you have abandoned your first love, the love you had at first, which is that what we are commanded to do, I believe to be a light and to share the gospel says, but remember therefore where you have abandoned or you have left, okay? And I don't think that he said, notice what they have left, not salvation, but their first love, what they were supposed to be doing, repent and do the works, do the works you did at first. So there are some works that they were doing at first, right? So clearly he says- But then he gave up- Then you warned him of a judgment. I'm sorry, but then he gave them a judgment that would happen if they didn't. So I don't think it was just how you're not doing what you're supposed to do. There's actually a judge. There's some other churches that got some pretty severe judgments. Like I'll spew you out of your mouth for being lukewarm. Those sound pretty serious. They are serious. Corey. They are serious. He says, look, he says, he goes on to say, he who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says to the churches to the one who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in paradise. The question is, will they conquer? Well, they're caught. Now this word for conquer is the word Nikon, or in this case, Nikon T, which is to the one that's going to overcome. But what does he go on to say that we do or that they do or that believers do? That they end up, that they are conquering. They are overcoming. He calls us not just- Let me like- I'm sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was gonna lay out a real quick argument, just real quick, and I was just gonna use an analogy, and then I was gonna- There's a gentleman I listened to named Michael Criswell. I listened to you. I listened to Michael Criswell. And he has a really nice video about One Save Always Safe. And he brought up a really interesting point, and I'll get to that point just a second. But if you and I were stuck on a deserted island, we'd be really lonely, obviously. But if you went around to the other side of the island, and you walked around, I say, I'm gonna go do a survey. I'm gonna walk around this island and you came back. Man, there's no trees on this island anywhere. We're just on here. And I said, well, next time you go around, make sure you don't get hit in the head with a coconut. Just keep your eyes open. Make sure you don't get hit with a coconut. And you said, dude, I just told you there's no trees over there. It would be an insane, it would be a totally insane thing to keep warning you about the coconuts falling when there's no trees on the other side of the island. Michael Criswell brought up a really good point in one of his videos. He said that, and this is just his information, he said that 80 times, or over 80 times in the New Testament, we're warned about enduring and about working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We're warned about our salvation. Why do you think he would warn us so many times about the opportunity, about making sure you stay in the faith like John chapter two verse four through five, I'm sorry, John chapter 15 verse five through seven, Christ warns about enduring and staying and if you do this and if you don't do this, you'll be like branches that are withered off that thrown into the fire. Why would he warn us so many times if we go on other side of the island there's no coconuts that can fall? Okay, here's why. First of all, there are no 80 times where we're warned, but let me ask you this question. How many people who call themselves Christians are actually Christians? Only God knows that. Okay, let me ask you a question. If you had to give it to us. And I'm just real quick, and the reason I say that only God knows that is we can't tell if God has saved that person or not. So it's unfair to say if they leave the church, it's unfair to say that they weren't saved and then now they're not. We can't really tell that. So the question I'm asking is there are about in his dropdown, but about 67% of people in America call themselves Christian. Do you believe that 60 to 70% of Americans are actual Christians? Absolutely not. Okay, you go to church? Yes. Okay, do you believe that 100% of the people that go to your church are actual Christians? Absolutely not. Okay, now, so let's just go ahead and put aside the people who are in the world, the Kanye West of the world, the Oprah Winfrey's of the world, the Steve Harvey's who called themselves Christian. Let's put them to the side. We know they're not. But the people who just regular Joe Blow, who goes to my church, who goes to your church or their church, we know that 100% of them are not Christian. Now, are there any of those people? Let's just take, so let's just say half. We don't know that to be true, but let's just say half, just to work with something. Half of the people that go to church today aren't saved, the other half are. So let's take this hat, the people that aren't saved but they say they're saved, they say they're Christian. Is it possible that any of them will actually become Christians later? Yes. How do you tell them? How do you get them to do so? Well, plant the seed and let the Lord water it. But wait a second, they already know the gospel. They go to church. How do you get them who think that they are saved to actually take an actual step to actually have faith in Christ? How do we get them to actually do that? Because they already think that they're Christian. Huh? That's a heck of an argument, Corey. I can give it to you right there, man. That is a strong argument. It's a strong argument. Because what does Jesus do? That's a good one. What does Jesus do? He says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord. And then he goes on to say, I used to know y'all. Matter of fact, one time I knew you, no. He says, I never knew you. And then Paul, he's the one that gives most of the warnings to say that make sure, as a matter of fact, and he tells the church of Corinth, he says, let every man examine himself to make sure all you guys calling yourself, because he's writing a letter to the church. He doesn't know that everybody in the church is a believer. And we saw yesterday on the broadcast yesterday that we even seen where people who are called brothers who aren't brothers. But you call these people a part of the body who are there, we don't know. So he says, warning, as a matter of fact, if you all were, we wouldn't see what we're saying now. We wouldn't see the disunity. We wouldn't see the confusion, the fighting and so forth. So if you are, okay, fine. He says, make sure there are these warnings. How do we know that you are saved? He says, the enduring ones are the ones that will be saved. That passage that he that endured to the end, it's not a warning, it's an affirmation of those of us who are believing will endure to the end. That's what that passage is saying. Then, not only is he giving a warning, he said, listen, there's ways you can find out. There are things that you can do to test and see, okay? So that's the reason why he gives his warning. Now people always go to John 15, but they don't keep reading. He says clearly, listen, you gotta bear fruit. I believe that wholeheartedly. You gotta abide. If you don't abide in Christ, if you don't bear fruit, if you don't keep believing, if you don't keep, or having faith, however you wanna call it, if you don't keep following Christ, you will go to hell. That's a fact. The question is, do we do all those things? He says, later in John 15, because now remember guys, I had the same struggle. I believe that you could lose your salvation. I fought it, you all should have seen it. Here I am, one of the associate pastors at a church and they were working with me patiently. I said, I believe everything else. I said, I just believe that you could still lose it. I still believe that there's something that you can do in the future that can cause you to not be saved. I really believe that. Now the folks who are against me, even the folks in the chat who have an issue with me, they would've loved me 20 years ago. They would've loved me then because I was on this side. Here's a person, this guy's worked his way through the scriptures and understanding and he's got it right. But then I changed and now I'm an enemy. Okay, that didn't really make sense. And that's fine. A level of maturity has to go out to people who disagree and don't see things the way you see it. And so for that reason, I don't treat people who disagree with me as though they are going to hell. That being said, I used to use that pastor in John 15. And then the pastor said, wait a second Corey, does your Bible cut off in John 15 somewhere? Does it cut off in verse six, verse seven, verse eight? No, it doesn't, no, sir. He says, why don't you keep reading? So I kept reading and it says, but I have appointed you to remain and to bear fruit. Oh, okay, so I will bear fruit, I will remain. Amen, because, and we'll get to John 10 in just a second, but he tells us that we're going to follow him, that we're gonna hear. So that's the reason for these warning passages. We have to have these warning passages. And I asked that question earlier about the Holy Spirit, what does he do for us? Well, the Bible tells us as a matter of fact, where do I have this? I thought I typed it in, so there it is. Let me put this on the screen. Where Paul tells us just exactly what the Holy Spirit is gonna do. Now I believe you seem like a person that probably knows how to take care of his money. At least you had some money. Have you ever had any money in your life? A little bit. I'm assuming that. Have you ever taken a trip? I don't go on trips, I don't waste money. But have you ever gone on one though in the past? I go back and forth home. I'm up from Texas, so I go back to Kansas from time to time. I'm from Kansas. Do you drive or do you fly? You ever fly? Yeah, yeah I do. All right, we're getting somewhere. As a matter of fact, so you fly and I bet you have a car too. You have a car? I do. Okay, now I don't know if you live in an apartment or condo or a house, you live in a house? Yes. Okay, cool, cool, cool. You are gonna agree with me and there's no debate about this. When you purchased your ticket, what did you do to purchase your ticket? What's the first thing you did? After you called them up and found out that there was an enable flight, what did you do? I had to make sure I had money in the bank. What did you do with your money? I can't pay if I don't have the money. Oh, so you gave them some money? I purchased a ticket. Okay, and that secured your flight. Okay, when you bought a car, did you pay for it all in cash? Yeah, I don't make payments. Okay, so you've never put it down, payment down? Oh no, I buy everything in cash, man. Including your house? No, come on now. You wanna imagine, okay, we're going somewhere. No, no, no, I'm like, it's not like that, man. I'm like, T.D. Jakes are nobody like that. When you bought your house, you put a down payment on your house? That's correct. Okay, so at closing, the house was yours? Yes. What guarantee that house would be yours? That was a down payment. There you go. Let's see, let's see. I'm waiting for the point. I'm gonna wait for the point on this one. Okay, cool, because guess what God gave us until we get to heaven, a down payment. Let's look at it. Ephesians 1.14, he says, man, let's start in verse, let's 13, in him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believe in him, you were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. So we were given Holy Spirit when we believed. Who is what? The guarantee of our inheritance. This word, our bone, it's a deposit. As a matter of fact, you look at the bottom left-hand corner, it's a deposit or down payment. He was our down payment of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory. Now, that title company, that real estate company is not gonna withhold the property that you put a down payment on. You gave an earnest money deposit, just like God gave us a deposit until we reached the ultimate inheritance. He's not gonna renege on that. We've seen people renege. This is what God has done. He's given us Holy Spirit. And until such time while we're walking, the Holy Spirit is going to move in us. He says, he who began a good work in us, he will complete it. Well, how's he gonna do that? Well, because the Holy Spirit, that's why he says greater is he, the Holy Spirit that's in us, than he that's in the world. Now, I got a couple more places to go. Are you familiar with it? If you wanna interrupt, go ahead. I don't wanna just, I don't wanna keep going without giving you a chance to come in. Oh, no, no, no, you're making, you just made that last one you made was a really good point. That was, that's pretty good. Now, I still slightly disagree, but it was a good point. Okay, listen, I'm like, Erkl, I'm wearing you down. I'm moving, so let's go, let's see. I wanna see, are you familiar with the atonement, the Old Testament atonement? Yes. Okay, so for those people- Slightly, I'm not gonna say I'm- Okay, that's fine. For other people who haven't, who aren't familiar with it, the way it worked was, once a year, there was a day that their sins were atoned for. And what God would do was, because they couldn't do it, God determined that blood would be the payment for a debt that's owed. And so what he would do is, he would have a priest to go before God, to intercede between the people and God, and to make atonement. And how he would do so is one, because God could not have their sins before him, so all the sins of the people would be confessed on the Lamb on the scapegoat. And that scapegoat, that Lamb would be sent out of the camp into the wilderness, where those sins are not before the Lord. Then they would slaughter the animal, and the blood would be shed on the cross as a propitiation or a payment for the debt that God says is owed. God determined that the debt that would be paid would be paid by blood. Now, all the people had to do, because God will then, once it's done, God will accept that offer that's mediated between man and God, he would accept that blood-bought payment, that debt, that payment for debt. At that moment, and the people believe, trust that what God's, God accepting that payment, that then, that their sins are atoned for, for one year, they are in right standing. They are just, according to the Old Covenant, they are justified for one year, right? Then they have to come back and do it again, year after year after year, right? Are you with me? So? Yes, sir. So every year, there's a possibility that you can stand with your sins atoned for every year, but there's also the possibility that this year, you stand with your sins atoned for, but the following year, you might not, because you didn't show up, you didn't go through even the rituals before then, you just didn't trust, you didn't care, hey, listen, I know y'all got this atonement been going, but listen, I got about seven, eight concubines back at the tent, the crib, waiting, can y'all hear this thing alone? Well, that person's sins not gonna be atoned for, even though he showed up, are you with me? So that person, though he might've showed up in faith last year, this year, who knows? His sins are not, he's not justified. Now, but everyone else, their sins are. Let me ask you a question. If that person dies between this day of atonement and the next day of atonement, will they, will that person face eternal wrath? No, you're referring to the New Testament, not the Old Testament. No, no, no, no, no, what's an Old Testament? What's an Old Testament? Oh, you are, you're going back to the Old, what was going back in the Old Testament? Yeah. Yeah, back then, yes, back then they would. Back then they would face wrath if they weren't in this tent. I'm saying the person, the person had their sins atoned for on this day of atonement, and let's say five months later, they died. There's a, I apologize for not having the scripture, but it says that if a righteous man were to do wicked, will that man not die? So I can't remember exactly, I'm out in front of my computer right now, so I can't just like Google it and I don't remember exactly what's going on, but there is a scripture that says it. Is it 18? Yes, yes, absolutely, yes, yes, sir. We'll cover that, we'll cover that, we'll cover that, but if a person has had their sins atoned for, and if your sins are atoned for, you are justified, you are in right standing, and you died there shortly, will that person suffer an eternal wrath later on? Oh, so you're talking about today? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, under the old covenant. In the new covenant? No, under the old covenant. I'm not sure about that. Well, they, no, they would, I'll be honest, I'm not sure about that. They would stand, they would stand, they would die, they would have died justified. Are you with me? They would have died justified. That's the whole point of the atonement. There'd be no point to have a person atoned for if they weren't atoned for. So if their sins were atoned for, and that means they are now declared right. Cause remember, they're making atonement for their souls. Right? Not atonement for anything else, but for their soul. And since their souls have been atoned for, they are in right standing before the Lord if they die. Now, the reason why I bring that up is because what does Jesus do? Jesus plays the part of all of them, the part of the priest, the mediator, he plays a part of the scapegoat. Remember, John says, look y'all, the Lamb of God, who takes away sins. So he plays a part of the scapegoat, all the sins, he who no sin became sin, all the sins of the world, of those who have faith, are on him, and he takes them away. Then third, and just as importantly, he becomes the perpetuation, he becomes the payment, he becomes the blood sacrifice. The difference is though, unlike the old covenant where they had to do this year, after year, after year, it was done once, and final after that. And so now there is no longer the chance for a person to be atoned for this year, and then next year not. No, that's what John 3.16 says. He says that he gave his son in order that the believing ones shall never, ever perish. That's what John 3.16 mean. John 3.16 is not introducing atonement for the first time. He's not saying that salvation has come to the Jews, or to the world, no, not even to that. He says that salvation has come to the world permanently. If salvation can be forfeited, if there's a possibility to be atoned for this year, and the next year, the next month, the next decade, not, well then we have the exact same system that we had under the old covenant. And if that's the case, why did Jesus have to get on the cross and die if it only to create the exact same system? He wouldn't do that. That's why he has a, that's why the writer of Hebrew says we have a better sacrifice. And he says he did it once and he sat down. And what he said also, remember, Hebrews is written to these Jews who are now believing that Christ is Messiah. But they're in their mind thinking, but don't we have to keep doing this day of atoning thing over and over and over again? Because I'm saying that it bothered me. Well, the reason why it bothered you is because you have this Holy Spirit. And that Holy Spirit is bothered when you do wrong. That's why. But no, you don't have to go back and do it over and over again. But if I don't do it again, then I won't be atoned for. And so he makes this statement. The writer says, well, if you think that after having tasted the goodness of the Lord, after having engaged with the Holy Spirit, if you think that you can fall away, it's impossible, impossible, according to Hebrews 6, to come back. So if someone thinks you can lose your salvation, according to Hebrews 6, it's impossible to get it back. But he goes on to give them comfort that no, that's not going to happen. Now, if someone is living continual sin, they're living a lifestyle of sin and there is no sacrifice for that person. But he goes on to say that that's not you guys. You guys aren't that way. So even he even affirms him, the person that's living in this sin, that ain't you. So now, the reason why I bring that up is because what Jesus did on the cross was one to end the old covenant, to perfect to end it, and then to start anew, and then to save others by the blood. Now, the reason why I wanted to go over all of that is because I need to make sure, guys, that we understood that there is a debt that I owed, that Lewis owed, that everyone else owed, even the folks who don't like me because I believe you can't lose your salvation. I still love you folks in the chat who can't stand me. I love you folks who are gonna make another video about me about this that I still love you. But you and I, all of us, we had a debt that's owed. We couldn't pay the debt. Once the debt was paid, is there anybody? As a matter of fact, let's put it on the screen. I've got to put this on the screen because I think this is one of my favorite verses. There's two, well, two of my favorite verses. Let's go ahead and before, listen, and I haven't even gotten to the strongest verse possible, but before we get there, let's go ahead and put this on the screen. Oh, that verse I'm waiting for, but I know where you're gonna go. I know where you're going with that. We were owed, I mean, he was owed a debt. God was owed a debt. What did God say the debt was gonna be? Blood. And he comes to pay the debt. And look what he says in Colossians 2.14, he says, let's put it on the screen. He says, and you were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. God made a life together with him. Look what he says, having forgiven our trespasses, which is our sin, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, this he set aside, he set aside what? The debt, how? By nailing it to the cross. So there is no more debt that is owed. Are you with me? And so that was the, now Jesus makes a statement. Jesus makes a wonderful statement that we gloss over and I cover this every year, at least two or three times a year, this particular statement that he makes. This is Jesus on the cross. He says, verse 30 of chapter 19 in John, he says, now when Jesus received the sour wine, he said, it is finished. And he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. He said, it is finished. If you all look to the right hand side, this word here in the Greek is to tell a story. The word to tell a story is, it means it's the perfect tense in Greeks, which means it's a completed task in the past. It's a past completed task. Well, wait a second. So you're not talking about right now was finished Jesus? No, I'm saying Jesus said it's been finished, completed way in the past. Well, when? When he determined that he would give his life as a ransom. This word to tell a story, if you go back and unearthed bills of sales, deeds, things like that, from that time you'll see a lot of the things on their staff to tell a story written to tell a story. To tell a story means it's canceled. There's nothing old. There's no longer a debt. So my question is, if Paul says the debt was nailed to the cross, the one that we owe, Jesus says it's finished. Do we ever incur a new debt? So let me ask you this question. Do you think if the debt was paid, would we ever incur a new debt? Yeah, well, I think when we go with the example given by Jesus of the wicked servant where the servant's debt was canceled by the king and then he went out and he wouldn't forgive one of his fellow servants. The king demanded him to come back and pay his debt in full after the fact. He judged him after that because of the fact. And we're warned that if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. So I think that warning is also easy. I don't think he's talking to him. Believe it or not, I think he's talking to believers. Well, is he? If you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. I think we're warned about that or we're not. So if a Christian doesn't forgive, is that person actually a Christian? I don't know. There would be the question, wouldn't it? He might be a disobedient Christian, but he might still be in the face because we don't know the hearts of men. If God requires a debt to be paid and the debt is blood, Jesus pays the debt. The debt is now imputed to us. I mean, the payment is imputed to us. The cancellation of that debt, the righteousness of Christ is now imputed to us. And our debt has been imputed to him. When does God now require a new debt to be paid? What's the new debt gonna be, more blood? And if it's more blood, who pays that more blood? I'm not saying it's taking a new debt. I'm saying if there's not acceptance of his grace, there's judgment. And I'm saying the debt was judgment and he cancels our judgment on the cross if we accept it. But if we don't forgive others, then we're gonna be held to our debt, our original debt. So he'll look at, we will be held to our original debt. We'll be held to our original debt and be condemned if we don't accept his debt and abide within him and forgive others. We have to forgive other people. And like I said, these letters from Paul are written to Christians. These aren't, these, no, I agree. They're brethren there that maybe aren't forgiven. We'll give you that. There might be some people there, but I believe the spirit of these debts, I'm sorry, forgive me. I just, we see if I'm wrong. I believe the spirit of these letters are written to believers on how to behave. And I think they're warning for us on how to endure and how to stay within the faith. Okay, so my question- But that's my opinion though. Okay. I'm sorry, I was actually pulling up that. I'm trying to decide do I want to go to that particular, that particular passage. Let's go, you know what? Yeah, let's go there, let's go there. Let's put it up over where I wanna put it up. Oh, there it is. Okay, let's put it up right here. Okay, let's go Luke 637. He says, judge not, and you will not be judged. Condemn not, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Given it will be forgiven to you. So now, if you do forgive, then you will be forgiven, right? That's correct. Okay, does that sound like salvation? Well, no, but I do think forgiving is part of salvation. We can't have our sins forgiven if we won't forgive others. Okay. It is a condition of our salvation. Okay, so now, so, but he says if you forgive and you- Have to stay in the faith. Forgiving, you will be forgiven. So if a person forgives, then they are forgiven by who? Yeah, I'm sorry, rephrase, I'm sorry. If I forgive someone that's against me, then he says then I will be forgiven, forgiven by who? By Christ, by our Lord. Is a condition of salvation ever told in the scripture, if, how shall we be saved by forgiving others? Is that what it's ever told? Are we ever told that? We're told if we don't forgive others and the love of the Father's not in us. We're literally told that. There you go. Now, is there ever a password where someone asks, we're getting there now, because is there ever a password where someone asks- I see where you're going. I see where you're going. Because it's implicit. If I'm a believer, I forgive it. So there's never a password that says, hey, how do we get saved? Well, you gotta forgive others. No, have faith, right? Well, in that, because the Spirit's in us, what are we gonna do? We are going to forgive. So we are having, we are seeing how this is meted out. By the way, he's not speaking to believers at the time anyway, but still, I think you could apply it to these believers later on, that when the Spirit comes in you, you are going to be forgiven. You have a repentance part. You see things, now does that mean you wanna stay around people who you have to forgive all the time? No. You know what, you did me wrong, I'm forgiving, moving on, but I think the best thing for me is to stay away from you. Right? So it's not forgiving others is how we get saved is putting our faith in Christ, the Spirit comes in and then guess what we end up doing? We end up forgiving people. Right? That's just kind of one of the things that goes along with it. Because we're never told that you gotta forgive and save. And then you went to the passage. So the deal is this, there's never a time where a new debt will be incurred because if a new debt is incurred, a matter of fact, even according to Hebrews, how is that debt going to be paid? Since it was originally paid by Jesus and his blood, well, what's the new debt gonna be paid? Well, it does say, and I can say, forgive me, I didn't write all these scriptures down, but just going off of memory. It's okay. It does say that if it does talk, in the New Testament, it does talk about not having a sacrifice left for you. You spoke of that scripture earlier if a person were to leave the faith. Now you're saying your belief is that it's impossible. And I believe, I think it was a Philippian, I believe, I'm not sure. You said it earlier, you said the scripture earlier that if you left the faith, there wouldn't be a sacrifice. And you tasted of the heavenly of the gifts and all those things that if you left, you couldn't come back. And you said, but if you continue to read, you find that that's not possible. So I see where you're coming from on that, and that's a good point that it's not possible. But let's take that scripture, for example. It says if you left, you couldn't come back. But what if people do leave and can't come back? Isn't it possible if people can actually leave and not come back? If you could leave, go throw a party. If you could leave, go get all the porn you can get, go get all the drugs you can get, go do all the stealing, the line to go live how you want to live. Cause you ain't, cause you're going the same place cause you can't come back. His point is- Well there are people I believe that do that. Well there are, but who do you know teaches that if you lose your salvation, you can't come back, very few. That you only get one bite of the apple. And so the point that the writer of Hebrews is writing cause he's writing to a Hebrew group of believers who understand this that you, though you could in the past, you can't now because there's no, because in the past, if you did something before, there was a sacrifice to pay for your transgression, no longer. The sacrifice has already been paid. And so there is no longer a need as a matter of fact, let's put it on the screen, Hebrews 10, 18. He says where there is forgiveness of these, of these sins, there is no longer an offering for sin. The reason for the offering of sin is because I've been sinning. Well, there is no more need, even though you didn't say you stopped sinning, there's just no more need for this offer for the sin because the offering, the payment has already been paid. And so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Now I'm on my way to my most emphatic, my strongest passage, okay? We hadn't gotten there yet, but we're getting there. Cause the earlier question was, you said that what if a Christian stops being a Christian? What if a Christian stops believing? What if that sheep stops believing? Well, here is something, I wanna read you guys something. There are about six times when the Bible refers to a believer in the past tense, ED. Six times, about three of those you really can't count because you have to grammatically put it in the past tense. The other 43 times, think about it. So we're really talking about 43 against three. The other 43 times that it talks about a believer, a believer is called someone who is believing, entered into one time a state of continual believing. John 3.16 in the Greek refers to us as believing ones. John 6, John 4, all throughout the scripture when we see them talk about someone who is a believer, someone believing, it's believing ones. That person has entered into a state of continual believing. And Jesus makes a statement in John 6.47 that truly I said to you that whoever believes, but the word says whoever is believing, whoever is one of the believing ones, that person at that very moment. So if you're believing at that moment, he says right now at that moment, verse 47, you have, 6.47, you have life forever. Well, and we're gonna get to this rule. So that means that if you're living forever, Jesus promised that if you're believing right now, then from now on, you're gonna keep living. Jesus can't make that statement if something happens and we stop, right? Now, I haven't gotten to, now let me ask you a question, because you said I just wanna hear it again because it did sound pretty sweet. Am I making, maybe not the most convincing, I haven't totally convinced you yet, but am I at least making a compelling case? I'll tell you right now, Corey, I disagree in a few areas, but I can't tell you you're wrong. I'll say that. I can't say, I can't discredit your argument. I'll say that you have some challenging points, but I can't say you're wrong. I can't say that. I'll say that I have to deal with some things that you've said. My mentor in the ministry did the same thing with me and I fought and fought and I was like, don't go in. And part of my issue, honestly, part of my issue was I was stubborn. Nope, nobody, nobody in the chats, no one wants to be wrong, nobody. If you say, Corey just doesn't want to be wrong, then you're a hypocrite because you don't want to be wrong either. No, if you want to be wrong, I want you to go to a drug counselor and tell him you've been taking some stuff because nobody wants to be wrong. Matter of fact, we all think that we're right. And because we think, that's why we believe what we believe. I believe what I believe is right until you show me. And that's how I was with him, Dr. Bolden. And it bothered me. I went back and just wrestled with it and wrestled with it and wrestled with it and wrestled with it. Yes, it was a cue. Yeah, I'm hard to believe that I'm stubborn. No, perish the thought. So, but yeah, I was stubborn, but for a good reason. By the way, guys, if you are a believer in this world and you're not stubborn, you will fall. Not necessarily fall out of salvation, but you're going to have a hard time because the world is coming against you. You are going to be in the minority. If you have sound doctrine, you're going to be in the minority. The world's going to tell you that boys can be girls. Girls can be boys. The world is going to tell you that being strict to the scriptures is wrong. It's outdated. You are on the wrong side of history. That's what's going to happen. So you better have some conviction. That being stated. One of the passages that just got to me was John 10, 28. Now, in John 10, 28, what did I have for? I've got some, oh, oh, I've got a passage. My last passage that I call the super duper clincher. Not even this passage I'm going to. But let's go to John 10, 28. We have already determined and discussed that he is talking to and about sheep. As I said before, he's talking to us sheepesses, right? All us children are sheepesses since we're in the South. So let's just go ahead and be Southern. Now, I know some of you guys are from the West Coast, East Coast, up North, Midwest. Some of you folks are in Africa, South Africa, in the Caribbean, in the UK all over. But let's just be good old down home Southern folk. Usesses are sheepesses that we call by Jesus. Jesus calls us sheep. Now, he's talking to two different sheep about two different sheep or sheepesses. I'm saying sheepesses just so you guys can know the plural form of the ghetto-fied sheep, right? Just so you know I'm talking about plural sheep. Some of you all do know who took English that sheep and sheep can mean singular and plural. I don't know which one I'm talking about, but we're talking about the plural sheep. So sheepesses we are. In John 10, Jesus tells us something about sheepesses. Sheeps, I'm saying sheep just to be funny. Keep you all awake. He says this about, as a matter of fact, let's go there so we can already know what sheep are and what they do. So us sheepesses, he says, in verse chapter 10, he says, let's start in verse, let's say, let's start in verse three. He says to him, the doorkeeper opens and the sheepesses, the sheep, plural. We know this is plural guys, the sheep, they do what? They hear his voice. Who's the voice they hear? That's Jesus's voice. And look what Jesus does. Jesus calls his own sheep by name. He says, phonicat onama, which is like, he calls them by name and he leads them. He leads his sheep. So we see, we're starting to see what dog on his sheep follow him. Verse four, when he puts forth all his own, so he's gonna bring out all of his own. We know that he says, hatan ta'idia apanta ekbale, which means he calls forth all of his own sheep. He's calling out to all of his own sheep. Who's sheep is he calling? His own. Are you with me so far everybody? He calls out his own verse four. He goes ahead of them and what does he say? The sheepesses, they're doing what? They're following akalufe, which is it's the present active indicative, which means the fact and they are doing it. It's a present action. They follow him. Well, why do they follow him? Because us sheepesses, we know his voice. I can't do it because I did it once and then got a copyright, not a strike, but a claim. Y'all seen it. Just go, just go type in shepherd, people calling sheep. It's all over Google. Many of you seen it. You type it in and you'll see these people going to this farm and they're calling these sheep. They know how to call them. And the sheep are just sitting there gracing, doing nothing when the people call them. They're ignoring the people. And he lets about three, four, five, six people go out and try it and the sheep, nothing. Then the shepherd, the farmer, whatever you want to call them, he goes out and he calls the exact same thing they did and they all stop what they're doing. Stick their head up and they start running. It is amazing. My sheep know my voice and when he calls them, what does he say? They follow him, his own sheep is what, so we find out, according to here, before we get 28, what sheep do? They hear his voice and they follow. Let's keep reading. He says, a stranger also, they simply will not follow. But what will they do with the stranger? They will flee from him because they don't know the stranger's voice. That's us sheep assist. Us sheep assist, us sheep. We will not follow a stranger. We don't know his voice. We won't follow. Not only will we not follow, he just says we will flee from him. So for someone to come back and say, yeah, but sheep will turn around and leave him. Why would they leave? He just, Jesus, this is why, this is the problem that we get. It's not like we're not listening to Jesus. We're listening to a preacher or someone else. We're not listening. Jesus says, his sheep will follow him. They'll follow him, they hear him. They will not listen to anyone else and they, as a matter of fact, if someone else calls them, his sheep will run away. Because sheep are scared. Dog got it. Dog got it. So that's what he says. So now let's keep going. Because I'm almost at the good part. I'm almost at the good orest part. Look what he says. He says, this is a figure of speech. Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what was being, what things were, which he had been saying. Any idea, any guess why they couldn't understand him because they weren't his sheep? And he says, he says, you don't understand me because you're not my sheep. Let's keep reading, though. Because somebody can say, what Jesus is just talking about them Jewish sheepesses. He's only, Jesus is only talking about Jewish sheepesses. What about us Gentile sheepesses? All right. I have created a new word on YouTube, sheepesses. What about us Gentile sheep? Let's look what he says. He says in verse 11, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. Didn't he do that? He absolutely did. He laid down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd who is not the owner of the sheep, he sees a wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he's a hired hand. Go down to verse 14, I am the good shepherd and I know my own and my own know me. Didn't he already say that? I know my own, the ones who live and laying down and they also know me. Look what he says. I know the father and I lay down my life for the sheep. The sheepesses. Now, is he only talking about the Jewish sheepesses? No, he's talking about us Gentile sheepesses too. How do I know? Cause look what he says in verse 16. He says, I have other sheepesses which are not of this fold. That's us. Look what he says. I must bring them also and they will. Guys, this is Akosusan, which is look down the bottom left-hand corner. This is a plural future active indicative, meaning they will in the future do this. What will they do in the future? They will hear my voice and they will become one flock with the shepherd. No longer are we gonna talk about someone not being sheepesses who start off, he says they will follow, they will never leave me. They'll keep walking with me. If someone comes after them, they'll turn around and flee cause they don't know that person's voice but they know my voice. They know mine because I am theirs and they are mine. Look what he says. Now let's go down to, let's move down to the gooder, the gooder-est part. I'm making up some bad English cause I want you all to feel this. I almost wish I was pentacostal so I can get an organ going and we can all speak in tongues but we'll do it later. Listen, listen. If what I'm saying to you cause you to speak in tongues, go ahead. Corey said speak in tongues, I think I'll speak in tongues. I wouldn't care if it's the wrong tongues. Go ahead and speak it. If you're gonna speak in tongues or anything, do it on this. Amen. Look what he says. He says verse, let's start in verse 25. He says, Jesus asked him, I told you and you don't believe me. The works I do in my father's name, these testify of me but you don't believe. Why? Because you're not of my sheepesses. But he reiterates, and this is the passage you brought up. He says my sheepesses hear my voice. Wajel, he already said that. And I know them and they what, what do his sheepesses do? They follow me. Akalu thusin, they follow me. Plural, present, active, indicative. Meaning that's what my sheepesses are doing. Now I'm gonna end up saying sheepesses over and over again. They keep following me. That's what they, that's what sheep do. Sheep don't go out and play football. Sheep don't go out and play baseball. Sheep don't get on the internet. Sheep don't go swimming. Sheep don't climb mountains. Sheep don't skydive. What do sheep do? Follow the shepherd. That's what the sheep do. That's what the sheep do. Sheepesses follow him. And then look what he says and here we go. He says, and I give them eternal life to them. Is that a true statement? He says, I give my sheepesses eternal life. Right? I agree. That's a correct statement. Who's the sheepesses? Yes. Everybody that's believing. They're following me. They won't stop following me cause we don't have any indication that sheep was to stop following. So he says in that passage, I give them eternal life. Clause B and they will never perish. And he says, no one will snatch them out of my hand. Now let me do a Clause C for a second. No one will snatch them out of my hand. He says verse 29, my father, which by the way, he says who has given them to me is greater than all. And no one is able to snatch them out of my father's hand. I have a father one. I'll go back to verse 28 again, but why does he bring it up in 29 and 30? Jesus is invoking to these Jews what God did in the Old Testament. He kept talking about the mighty hand of God bringing them out. And so he invokes that again here in John 10, 29 and 30. And look what he says. The sheepesses, where does Jesus get his sheepesses from? His sheep. Somebody's on clicking on right now, like what is this guy talking about? This guy calling the sheepesses. Where does Jesus get these sheep from? Well, he just said in verse 29, my father who has given them, who's a them, the sheep to me is greater than all. And no one is able to snatch them out of my hand. I'm gonna answer your question. Answer your second geo engineer asking you. So no one is able to snatch them out of my hand. Let's go back to Clause B and C of verse 28. So we dealt with Clause C, but someone's gonna say, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, here's what's gonna happen. You're right, no one can snatch them out of my hand, but I can leave, I can walk away on my own. And then I would say lovingly, knucklehead, did we not just finish reading the first and middle portions of chapter 10 where he said, she won't leave him. She were gonna keep following. She will not turn and walk away. We just, we just read that. So it would have to be a cognitive distance, just intentional to decide, yeah, but she can leave when Jesus just said they won't. Jesus just said, she will follow. And here's the kicker. He says in Clause B, and I've had people try to refute this. He says, and they will never perish. Now we don't have a contradiction because if they can walk away, then they could perish. If they can walk away, then they don't have a turn of life. So there's a contradiction if they could, but he says, and they will never perish. This is why this is one of the greatest passages in the history of the Bible. I know it's a big statement because of what it's saying. It is irrefutable. Irrefutable, I'm gonna get that in just a second. What he says in the Greek, he says, um, kai ume apalantai eston ionon. What does that mean? It says this word, ume apalantai. And this is the whole point of this conversation and others is that this in the Greek states, it is literally impossible for you to perish based on any future activity. Why do I say that? Because in Greek we have this, what's called an emphatic negation. Emphatic negation means it's a grammatical structure in Greek that states that if I have, what's called an emphatic negation in front of either a future active indicative or a subjunctive. Let me break that down. Emphatic negation is a ume. Ume is no not same as me. So I'm putting two negatives in front of a future active indicative or in front of a subjunctive. What is a subjunctive? A subjunctive is a word that conveys potential, possibility. You matter of fact, the word that's used here is may perish, you might perish. So does that mean it's a possibility of perishing? Not with a double negation in front of it because a double negation means that there is no possibility of it happening and the rule states not even by any future activity. Does Jesus know how to speak Greek? Yes, he does. Does John who's writing it know how to write Greek? Yes, he does. So the issue is, and I was told this now, I say it either as your understanding or Jesus' understanding of Greek or John's understanding of Greek. Who has it wrong? Because this Greek is clear. Now, let me give you an example of where this works. And you all tell me this is in Mark 518. I'll just read to you guys. He says, truly truly I say to you, until heaven and earth passes away, not the smallest letter or stroke shell pass from the law until all is accomplished. That's what he says. He also says it, where else? Mark, I had it written down. I don't, I can't even see it, forget it. I'll just go back up and I'll find another one. Mark 2435. He says, heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away. Here's the question guys who might disagree. Is it possible for anything in the future to cause Jesus' words to ever pass away? So I'll ask you that question, Lewis. Is it possible? No, no. Nothing. And the reason why he stays at is, let me put it on the screen for you guys to see it. Right here he says, oi lagoe mu ume paralethosin, which is, here's the duplication ume in front of the subjunctive. This word right here means to pass away. My words will never ever pass away. Meaning there's nothing that can happen in the bestest construct of that rule. So that rule applies to that. So therefore we understand that it is literally impossible for his words to pass away. That rule also is used in John 10, 28. In John 10, 28, he makes that statement. Let's put it back on the screen. He says, ume, here it is, oo and then may with the subjunctive, apple on time. By rule, Jesus is literally saying that it is impossible. And I've challenged folks, if you can find one Greek scholar, one Greek grammarian who disagrees, then let me know. Now, there is, by the way, one person who is a grammarian who slightly differs, but not in the way that will help anyone. Because geoengineering says that Mahler never came back with his scholar to disprove. He hasn't, no one can. This particular scholar has stated he doesn't think that it is necessarily the greatest way to emphatically deny something. He just says even the simple denial is good enough. So his point is, any way you deny it is good enough, right? Others scholars say this is the most emphatic way. So still there is no way to get past what Jesus is saying, even through any future acts. Now, let me give you all something that I think is just awesome. Can I get you all something that's just really awesome? I think this just, it just, it does something. Look what he says. In Hebrews 13.5, and I covered this before, but I didn't, y'all, I apologize. I didn't cover it the right way all the way. Let me say what it says. Y'all seen this passage before. He says verse 13, I'm chapter 13, verse five of Hebrews. He says, keep your life free from love of money and be content with what you have for he has said, I will never leave nor forsake you. I will never leave nor forsake you. We got some Greek in here that we need to cover. He says, I will never leave. Look over here, ume. This word, I know, means, are y'all ready for this? I'm almost giddy to explain to you what this word means, but I won't, I'll let you guys, so do me a favor, brother, look in the bottom. I don't know if you can see this. I'll make it bigger if y'all need me to. Look in the bottom left-hand corner to see what this Greek word, I know, means. Y'all ready? Here it is. He says, I will never leave nor forsake you. He says, ume, say, I know. Look what this word, I know, means. Let me make it bigger as a matter of fact. I want you guys to see this. Can y'all see that? It is a singular active, I'm sorry, the air is active, subjunctive. It means to send back, to throw up, to leave. So he says, I will never, ever, it's impossible for me to send you back. Then he says, he goes on to say, ume, say, and here's the word forsake you. This is where en and kana and lepo, and so this is where I will never forsake you. He said, it is impossible for me to send you back and it's impossible for me to desert you or to forsake you. He really says it twice. It's like a double emphatic negation. He says, it is impossible for me to send you back and it's impossible for me to forsake you. Now I'm going, I feel like, you know what? I'm gonna download somebody to shout and speak in tongues for me because that's where you do it all. He loved me so much, he called me to be his sheepessess and stated, you know what? Not cause you had to do it. You know why you never do it? Cause you ain't no good. You know good. It's almost like Joe Clark. I remember Joe Clark in lean on me. He said, I got down on my knees and cried, my God. And he said, Joe, you know, dang good. That's all of us. No good. We are no good. You know good. I know good. And let me just say this. I'm not being, I'm not playing a dozen, but your mom ain't no good. Your dad ain't no good. My mama, no good. All of us. All we like, she goes straight. From the moment we born, anybody got a one year old or two year old or three year old? Look at them. Your grandson, woo. Something else. But God does something. You know why? Cause he can't trust me. The passage you was speaking about earlier, Ezekiel 18 about if we can, if us that continue in this sin, what will he do? He won't forsake us. Yeah. Or he won't, he won't destroy us or punish us. Sure. But he has a remedy for it. His remedy occurs a few chapters later where he says, I am going to put my spirit in their heart. I'm going to give them a brand new heart, clean their heart, wash their heart with water and put my spirit in it and cause them to walk in my teachings. And we're also told we will never depart from them. So if the Holy Spirit is putting us and cause us to walk in them and never depart, then we never got to worry about departing. We never got to worry about not believing. That's what he did. And so because of that, I think it's crystal clear that we, if I'm wrong, if you can lose it, that we got a whole lot of content that we just covered today that shows that we can lose our salvation. Well, I'll say this. Show that we can lose our salvation. I'll say this. Matt, you did a great job laying out your point. And Corey, as always, man, I've listened to you for quite some time and it's impressive. You do a great job of laying out your argument. I think we disagree on a couple of areas. One of them is really critical. Actually, two of them are critical. The predestination argument, I think is a critical one. I think it kind of causes some problems for your argument. We disagree on that, but I think you made a good argument. And I think my point about the lampstand, I don't think there's a place in scripture that can just prove what a lampstand is signifying in that chapter. If it's salvation, is it just their place in the world? We don't know. We're just kind of speculating. It could be salvation. And that's kind of what I'm holding to He says to repent. So if he's talking about repenting, I'm thinking that they're sending pretty bad and that's something there. I can't disprove what you're saying, or I'll say this, about when you went back into chapter 10 and John and read a little further in, further than I was really looking at. When you start talking about the characteristics of sheep, I mean, that's a pretty strong argument. I still will say that John chapter 10 is talking about sheep and it never talks about can a sheep stop being a sheep. But I agree with you. Something I need to think about is were they a sheep to begin with? That's a strong argument. If a person is a sheep to begin with, because it says what sheep would do and if they don't do those things then they're probably not a sheep to begin with. I think that's a good point. Well, who brought him? Who brought him? Well, yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, if they haven't been called by him he tells us where the sheep came from. Who gave Jesus these sheep? He tells us God did. Sure. So, and then we found out that they were, that their names were written in that book from the beginning from the foundation of the world. And so, the sheep didn't come on their own because sheep go astray and so he went out and the father gave the sheep to us which is why we're called the bride and so that's why in John 6, he makes this statement. He says that all of the father gives to me and so the father gives us to him and that's where we have this picture of a wedding where just like today, the father gives the bride to the son. Well, who gave the bride, the church, the body, the believers to the son? The father did. And so... Well, let me ask you a question. I'm sorry, Corey. Let me ask you a question. I don't mean to interrupt you on that point. Just staying on the point of predestination. Just asking a little bit further about your personal belief with the lens of scripture. I'm not necessarily quoting scripture but in the lens of scripture, do you think it's fair for God to only predestine a certain amount of people to be saved? What do you think about that? No, I don't. Let me do that and just give me 14 and a half seconds. Go ahead and count now. Y'all do me a favor. Okay. Yeah, I ain't got a band, JP, but put it in time now. I don't wanna see or hear him today. He's insulting people because no one says mean and nasty ugly things like he does and because no one wants to hear him. And so, JP, go find your channel, go do what you're gonna do, go make another video, you disagree, that's fine. You're never going to agree. Maybe when you get older, maybe once you get past 30 or 35, maybe if nothing else, you'll stop being insulting. But not today, young brother. Now, you said all the last two people were, what'd you say, scrubs? Well, this started off with you. This started off with you on here and you were bothered by that. You went to your channel, came to your channel and you were bothered there. And so, from now on, do not worry. As a matter of fact, when we have this issue of eternal security, once he comes on, y'all immediately put him in timeout. He can talk about every other passage when we talk about tongues or anything else, but from now on, he's not banned from the channel but banned from this conversation because he doesn't know how to handle himself. This brother does. We disagree and how has he comported himself the way a believer should. Matter of fact, the way a mature believer should. When I went to someone else's channel, who they all disagree with me, I didn't go to calling their names. No, and so that's the issue. And so, JP, I would hope that you would just, if nothing else, you would learn to mature, to grow up. No one respects the way you handle things. Nobody, I'm pretty sure you're, I won't say that. I'm not gonna say what I was gonna say, but you don't want to listen to an older person. So, since you don't want to grow up, goodbye. Now, your question is, is it fair or unfair if he chooses certain people and not others? That's a great question. Oh, oh, oh, it's not, is it fair, but do you think it's fair? No, I don't have a problem with it, here's why. Okay. Matter of fact, Paul addresses this. Paul addresses this in Romans. When he says, he bases, is that fair? And Paul's point is, one, how shall we, who are the creative things, say to the creator? And we're the pot. And so the potter can do what he wants to. Now, here's the issue. No one in hell is going to be able to say, I'm in hell because of God. We're only gonna be able to say, I'm in hell because of what I've done. This is why I do not believe, this is where I also depart from Calvinists. I believe that you have the ability to choose God. I do. I also believe you will not choose God. I also believe God knows you will not choose him. And so because of that, what does God do? Since, all right, I gave you all a shot, you wouldn't do it. Now, I'm gonna do the choosing. Cause I know if there's been 15, 16 billion people on the planet that either are living now or have ever lived, not one of you are gonna choose me, which is why he says in Romans, there are none that seek after me. None of us choose him. None of us do. And so because of that, now he can choose and do so in a just and clear conscience in the clear fashion. Cause the people who have chosen. I don't want to interrupt you. I just want to stay on that point you just made right there. I'm just the clay. I'm not judging the potter. I'm just bringing it up for argument's sake. And you said that since everyone's gonna reject him and now he gets to do the choosing. Like I said, I'm not judging God. I'm not challenging him. I'm challenging what you think about. What you think about this, why is it just to pick you and I and not the person over in the bar right now that's drunk, that's sinning, that's doing the things they're doing? What's just about picking us and not them? Well, because it's just because none of us deserved it. Okay, when I went to prison, some of my some are just now joining, I went to prison for a charge that typically for most folks would have carried three, four, five months. I thought that I was going to get a year, two years, possibly even probation. That's what I thought. And I was pleading guilty. When you plead, you don't get the maximum. That's the whole point of pleading guilty because you are assisting the government. They don't have to put in as much time. And so when you plead guilty, they tend to try to get work with you. Not me. When I plead guilty, they gave me the max 20 years, 240 months. I'm shocked. Wait a second. Hold up. We got talking too. You couldn't be talking about me, sweet, lovable, adorable me. I don't, what? So I get 20 years. Now, the statute calls for up to 20 years. Do I have a leg to stand on to say that I don't deserve 20 years? No. Is that harsh? Sure. But that's what punishment is supposed to be, harsh. Now, I get 20 years, the guy before me who was three times convicted on drugs and all that sort of stuff. He gets, not only does the government ask, the government doesn't ask for departure, a downward departure, the judge on his own gives that guy a downward departure on his own. No one asked for it. He just gave it to him out of the goodness of his heart. Now I'm up next for sentencing and he hits me with the maximum. Wait a second. You gave this dude who'd been in and out of trouble. The matter of fact, this guy was illegal. He's across the border a bunch of time, sold drugs, gotten in trouble and so forth. He gets a downward departure, I think he gets like eight, nine years. I'm thinking, man, this judge is in a good mood. Did I get the max? Never been in trouble before with the law. Was that fair? Well, just looking at me, it was fair for me to get it. Is it fair in comparison for the next person? Well, no, but was the judge just in doing so? For it to be unjust, the judge would have to do something that he could not have done or should not have done. So he can show mercy on this other person. And he did. He's not unjust because it didn't show mercy on me. And so, no, that's not unjust, I'm sorry, go ahead. What'd you say? Now, I guess what my point is, I understand that you're talking about your situation, which makes sense. That's a good analogy, but I don't think it quite fits this because we're talking about eternal judgment and separation from God for a lot of people and then other people are called to be saved. And if he's the one that's making that decision and we're not making that, that stomps on free will and it's really not very loving. And I don't think he really does that. That's just, I think he loves us enough to give us the opportunity and he calls us and we can answer the call or we can not answer the call. And that's the reason why. He says that the people that have the mark of the beast and Book of Revelation, they wouldn't repent and they rejected him and there's those are choices. And so, to say that the decision was made for them is a pretty strong statement. That's where the predestination hang up is for me. I'm still trying to struggle to try to understand that. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. So, the unjust one would be, or the just way would be to what? Let nobody, cause there's three options. There's three options on the floor for God. One, choose some. Two, choose none. Three, choose everybody. Which option do you think makes God just? Man, if there was just two options, I would call it a false dichotomy. Or the reason why is because, but I'm saying if there was just two, I would say that was a false, I was a fallacy because literally I believe he allows us all to make the choice. Okay. And then it's whoever makes a decision. But no one will, we're already told that no one will. So we got a world of 16, 17, 18 million people that never will choose. So now what is that? I think if we take that, I think if scriptures like that, if not taken with other scriptures and with wisdom and with understanding of what it really means, I think it could be taken out of context. For example, you said a scripture earlier, and I'll say one right now where it said that all those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. And then there was another one where they said, Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons and then did we not prophesy in your name? So I think if you take the whole, the entire scripture and you use it all in the lens of the meaning of what it means, you could come up with a true understanding with wisdom. But if you just take one scripture by itself to say that no one will be able to choose, no one will be able to choose him, you chose him. Who did? According to what happened. Didn't you choose him? Well, could you have rejected him? After you chose me? I loved you. Oh, absolutely. But they say after he chose us, we chose him. After he chose us. But we did choose him after that. Yeah, but wait a minute, we chose him. What caused us to choose him, Lewis? What caused me to choose that he chose? That was him. He generated him. He called us. Right? Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. So now we've got scriptures that tell us that we're not gonna, now he tells us to choose. He calls us to choose. He's begging us to choose. All day long, I've stretched out in my hands, think of Israel to an unrighteous and adulterous generation. All day long, I've done that. Nobody's coming. What happens is we, man, listen, I chose him, you ought to choose him. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. Nothing good about you. Listen, I see you at night. Not me, but I see you at night. You was horrible. I see what you watched. Then you get them go to church and tell everybody to repent and live holy. I see you checking her out. I see you was watching this, that porn. I see what you got. I see, you won't get a filter. I see what you've done with your money. I see how much you give. I see what you think about people. I see how you act. I see all that stuff. Now, you mean to tell me you qualify for salvation? No, you don't. You deserve hell. That's what you deserve. Now, we got three choices. Knowing and seeing, because it's clear. Nobody is going to choose. Nobody, he's standing at the door knocking, but no one is saying, come on in. That's why he has to give us, God the Father has to give us to the Son. That's why, because otherwise we're not coming. We just ain't coming. Now, you got three options though, Lewis. Only three options to make God just or unjust. However you want to do it, does he choose some, choose none or choose all? Because we know he's choosing, because that's what the word election and predestination even means. So who does he choose in order for him to be just? So you tell me. Well, I agree with you that he is calling us, but I think he's calling everybody and only some of us respond. So how does Jesus say it? Many are called, but few are chosen. Yeah, but I think you're implying with chosen that we don't have a choice. No, no, no, no, no, I'm not implying that we don't have a choice. No, remember I said, we do have a choice. I'm implying, I'm stating that we have a choice we don't choose correctly. But he is the one that also has a choice. I'm implying that he has the ultimate choice and he chooses us. Do you think that he doesn't choose us or do you think that we choose him? I think we respond to him choosing us. There you go. And we choose him. He tells us first, he does something in us. It's like this. I agree. Because people want to say, well, wait a minute, Corey, if he chooses us and regenerates our heart and then that causes us to choose him, does that make us a robot? First of all, who cares? If you're saved. Second of all, y'all don't ever know anybody that's been in a hospital that's had pain killers and through no fault of their own, they become addicted and that has also influenced their decision making. Sure, that happens. Well, what happens if you have been infused, you have been through no fault of your own, been given the Holy Spirit? Does that affect your decision making? If your heart has been regenerated, does that affect, yes it does. Otherwise, we got a weak Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is powerful. Think about it. He literally takes the Holy Spirit and washes and regenerates our heart. Gives us a brand new heart. That's powerful. And so then we respond, but only after he does something. Ezekiel 36, he says, matter of fact, let's just put on screen. Let's put on screen. I said I was gonna go there. I mentioned it, but I didn't flesh it out thoroughly. So let's put it on screen. Ezekiel 36. There's a lot of folks that don't like this passage. There's a reason why. Those who believe you can lose your salvation. Here's why. Let's put on screen. Then he's speaking to these Jews who won't get their act right like us. He says then, and notice by the way, as we read this, Lewis, notice who's the active party and who's the passive party. Notice this. Then I, active, I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean. Pretty emphatic as a matter of fact. He's an active participant and he's saying what you, I'll make it bigger for you as well. Then he said what you actually will do. When he said I will do this and what you will do. So God is the active party in this. He says I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean. I, God will cleanse you from all your filthiness. How much of your filthiness? All of it. And from all your idols. Moreover, I, God will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I, God will do that. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh. Verse 27, and I will put my spirit within you and I will what cause you to walk in my statutes or my teachings and you will be careful to observe my ordinance. You will live in the land that I now, he's speaking of Israel, but he goes on to use this in relation to us in John as well. And so God is the eye that's doing it. We are the one that's being done too. And so if he says I will do this and then you will do that and I will cause you to walk in my statutes. If God says, Lewis, I will cause you to walk in my teachings. What will you do? Just what he says. You will walk in his teachings. And so what we do sometimes is we try to like, is that right or is that wrong? Let me give you the answer to the question. Do I think that makes God just whether he chooses some or not? God is just if he don't do anything. God is just just cause. Just cause God is just. He's just cause that's the nature of him. He's just because he is supreme. Now, if God were to, and I'll answer the question, he's got three choices. Choose some, choose none or choose all. If he chooses none, he's still just. If he chooses all, wait a second God, wait a second God, then your word don't mean anything. You're not punishing anybody. Everybody gets away with sin. Then what be the purpose of having Jesus coming down the cross for no good reason then? If you're gonna save everybody. But he wants to do two things. And Paul says this to what he wants to show his justness, his righteousness, as well as his love. Justice demands that sin be taken care of. And so some will do it. But love also dictates that he shows it some sort of way. And he shows the undeserving people. Who's the undeserving? Well, first of all, everybody's undeserving, but even the few that are, that he does choose. Well, goodbye with that. Don't take it with me, take it with God. That's literally what the, cause the problem is we can't get past what these words mean. That's the problem. The words literally state that he does the choosing not based on any merit. By the way, by the way, by the way, can I just make this other point? It's a Greek point. It's a Greek point. I wanna make this point in the Greek. Can I take you guys to Ephesians? I believe it's Ephesians. Is it Ephesians? Make sure it is. I think it's Ephesians. Yes, it is. Ephesians 2,8. You all know this passage. He says, for by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing. Let me make this a little bigger. And this is not your own doing. It is a gift of God. The question on the floor. The question on the floor is this. And this ought to just silly. For some folks, some folks, you know what? I don't care. And I had a guy tell me, I don't care what you say, I'm not gonna listen. Hey man. So you know what I told him? All right, let's go. What's up with him Cowboys in? Your team is horrible. Your team is horrible. Why are we gonna talk about this? If you say there's nothing I show you that's gonna change your mind? Well, then fine. Now what I also told him was give me your Bible since you don't need it anymore. You're perfect with it. So nothing in the Bible is gonna convince you. Okay, fine, you don't need it anymore. So if someone is dead set on hearing it, listen, I'm not gonna fight you. I'm not gonna beat you up and fight you to get you to see something that you don't wanna see. I'll let someone far better than me deal with it. That'd be God. So I want y'all to see this. And there's no getting around this as well. Matter of fact, let me put this on the screen because I think some folks are missing this. Can I go out? Y'all bear with me for a second. All right, I should've did it earlier. I should've did it earlier. I should've got the Greek warning out of the way. But I wanna give you all a real quick Greek lesson. Here it is. Going back to verse eight. He says, for by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing. It is a gift. Question is, what is the gift? What is the gift? It's not of yourselves, of God, the gift. So what is the gift? What do you think the gift is? Is the gift, there's only two things that's possible. Either salvation or the faith. Salvation. Not faith? You don't think faith? Oh, it's the ability to see the truth. The scales not being on your eyes? Yeah. Let me show you guys that it's not only a salvation gift, but also the faith that you have to believe is also a gift. Here it is in the Greek. In the Greek, we've got a couple of things happening here. He says, for the grace of your, I mean, it's been that you've been saved. Through faith. Now, this word right here, tuta. This word, tuta, is what does it? You don't even have to know Greek. But I want you all to look in the bottom left-hand corner, I wanna show you something. In Greek, words have to kinda match up with person, with gender, and number, right? What we have here, we have either masculine, feminine, or neuter. We could tell who the this, that that the gift is. We could tell who the gift belong or the gift is referring to if we could see that it also matches up with the other nouns, either salvation or faith. So if faith is in the masculine and then the this for the gift is in the masculine, then that's the gift. But if the this is in the feminine and another one's in the feminine, then that's also the gift. Are you with me? However, we got a problem here. I want to show you guys something. Let's put on the screen. Salvation, look in the bottom left. Let me make it bigger. I want you guys to see this. Let me hit it twice so it's gonna be really big. All right. Salvation that you've been saved. Look what it says. It's in the masculine. Y'all see that? The bottom left-hand corner, this faith, I mean, this salvation is in the masculine. Then though, the faith though, is in the feminine. Let me make it a little bit bigger. I want you guys to really see this. Then faith is in the feminine. So if we want to find out what is the gift, we need to see what gender is in it. If it's in the masculine, then salvation is the gift. If it's in the feminine, then faith is the gift. Are you with me? We got a problem, Houston. Because as we go to it, Tuta, with the bottom left-hand corner, it's not in the masculine and it's not in the feminine. It's in the neuter. Houston, dog owner, we got a problem. Because now we gotta figure this out. Well, here's the rule. The rule is if it's in the neuter and neither of the previous are in the masculine, I mean, are in the neuter. If they're in the masculine or the feminine, then the neuter governs the whole of it. So guess what faith is. I mean, guess what the gift is. The gift is faith. The gift is salvation. It's both. That's the rule of Greek and you cannot get around that. And so what is salvation? That's a gift, obviously, but so too is the faith. Which goes back to what we just read in Ezekiel. God is going to be the active party in our salvation. And so even the faith that you got, that was given to you by God. Disagree with it? That's fine. You can disagree with all you want to. Take it up with Greek. Take it up with God. I'll be here to talk with you, but you're not gonna win that point. Go find a Greek scholar and say, hey, Cory, I disagree with him. We'll have a conversation. Go find a Greek textbook. Go find, now listen, I'm not a Greek scholar. I'm still trudging through this thing, but that being said, that's the rule. And after me answering all of these questions, when I take, cause when you answer a question, I'll answer it, no one answers mine. No one says, all right, Cory, no, you're wrong. Here's why. They just say, okay, I see that. I see a point. But what about this passage? At some point in time, you gotta say, dog on it, Jesus loves me so much that I'm just gonna go with it. He loves me so much. He's giving me some down payment that has guaranteed my salvation. That is if I am indeed saved, cause he does have all these warning passers. If indeed you are saved. If indeed you are saved. I'll tell you right now, I'm gonna wrestle with a few things, but man, that's a good argument. Hey, I'll tell you right now, that's the best I've ever heard this argument. Well, thank you. I listen to debates online all the time and that's the best I've heard the argument. It leaves me in a position where I have to go back in retreat. Let me tell you this. I gotta go get behind my foxhole and figure out how to attack this. Let me tell you guys this. Let me tell you guys this. Corey, why did that man, why did that judge? I just thought of his name. I just thought of his name. Why did that man give you 240 months? Y'all know what it's like having a sentence of 240 months? You feel like, well, listen, I'm not a spring, now I wasn't 50 years old when he gave me the sentence, but I also wasn't 20. It's a long time, 20 years. Lord gave me some time to deal with myself. Gave me some time to deal with my character flaws. What was wrong with you, Corey? Here you are, you're a Christian. What's going on in your life that you gotta do something that's gonna cause you to get 240 months? Well, it's what God wanted to have happen to me. Corey, you need to do some more studying. You're not doing what you should have been doing. Well, guess what 240 months gives you? Time gives you time to one, work on what's in you, fixed, and also study and learn. And also deal with people who are going through, there's some rotten, listen, there's some rotten folks in prison, some rotten, listen. Y'all talk about some killers, I live with killers. You ever been with a guy that got eight life sentences? Yeah, I did. My celly had eight life sentences. Why do you give somebody eight life sentences? One is good enough, right? Eight life sentences. So how do you minister to somebody with eight life sentences? How do you minister to somebody who is a sex offender and can never see his children again? How do you minister to someone who his family just got shot up? How do you minister to that person? I'll tell you how, dawg, on it. Let me tell you how you minister to that person with the word, with the word. So you get time to study the word and how to apply the word and you got real life specimens to use it with in the show. And guess what? You don't do it in a condemning fashion. You know why? Cause I'm in the exact same boat as they are. Jesus makes a statement, says those who have been forgiven, little love, little, but those who have been forgiven much love much. I've been forgiven a whole lot and I thank God for it. The fact that you chose me for no good reason, I got a lot of reasons why guys should just kick me to the curb and had nothing else to do with me. But he loved me. Listen, I'm trying not to cry because I know what it, when the doors opened for me to leave prison, I had just lost my mother in prison. I had just lost, they had put me in the shoe, the shoe was solitary confinement. They just put me in the shoe, nothing, I hadn't done anything, just cuss. That happens sometimes in prison. So I'm in there by myself and then I get a letter from the government. Open it and read it like public enemy. I opened and read it and it said that my case, my legal case has been defeated, that I have no recourse. So, okay, Lord, now what? I have no way to even get out early. And then a few short months later, Corey, pack your bags, get your stuff, you're going home. I had already resolved that it's me and you God. I've been up and I've been, guys, I was literally, I was literally a millionaire. I'm not lying, I'm not lying. Literally, lost it all. A whole bunch of folks turned on me and walked away, amen. Amen. Folks who I never would have gotten rid of otherwise anyway. Amen. So I was resolved. Paul said I was up, I've been down, but I've learned that with every, whatever state I'm in, there will I be content. I learned how to be content in prison. I was cool. I'm a rock with you no matter what. Amen. Go home now. And so was he just in sending me away for 240 months? I didn't serve 24, just 13 years. That's just 13 years. Was he just, well, just cause he wanted to get something out of me. Was he just in having a great well, a great fish to come and swallow up Noah? I mean Noah. Jonah, yes he was. I got something for you to do. Was he, yeah, he's always just. And we will serve his purposes. We get it twisted. He ain't serving my purposes. We are serving his purposes. And I praise God just for that opportunity, just to serve his purposes. And if that means coming to the heart, understanding of a truth that I may not have done, if I was God, would I have done it this way? Nope, I'd have done it differently. If I was God, either all y'all be saved. If I was God, none of y'all going to heaven. That's just me, but I ain't God. So I don't have to apologize for it. I just have to just speak it, amen. So Brother Lewis, listen, Brother, I appreciate you. Coming on, I appreciate the cordial way that you handled yourself. It's my prayer. It's my prayer that Lewis like, you know what, I see it, because that's how I was. That's how I was. I had to, yeah, yeah, doc, I'm saying to the person I'm talking to, I see it. I think, yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I'm wrong. But it was okay. But it was okay. So anyway, you guys, any other words before we go ahead? I got things to wrestle with. Yeah, hey, you know, just to say, Corey, you know, you and I have gone back and forth a few times in the comment section. And I think we're both very much alike, like each other. We're very competitive. I can tell the competitors in you, but I think it's in good spirit. And that's the reason why I was pushing so hard and goading you into debating me. And you didn't let me down. I really, truly appreciate you. I appreciate you, man. I think that you're a really good guy. Your story moves me. And I know God's working with you. And I wanna thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to speak with me. I know it takes a big man to accept the challenge from somebody when they say that you're wrong. And I can't say you're wrong. I can't say you're wrong. I think there's a few points I disagree on, but that's something I have to wrestle with. And that's something that hopefully God will give me peace in my heart on those things. And I can't say that I won't come out and say I'm wrong some other time. Now, there is another thing I want to bait you on. Maybe in about six months or something, I'll reach out to you. You know, I still, I still, I let you whip your tail on the pre-tribulation rapture. I'm not done with you yet. Okay. Yeah, I believe I could beat you in that one, but the great thing is I think that you screwed a lot of truth tonight. And I think a lot of people were edified by that. And as well as myself and I really appreciate your time. Okay. Man, listen, I appreciate you listening. Anytime, brother, anytime. You have a good one. I'm gonna go ahead and get off. I gotta go take care of something with my wife in just a second anyway. So you guys, so you be blessed brother. I will talk to you on the other side. For everyone else, there's a question that said answer prodigal daughter's question. I think your question is, what is someone doubts salvation? Did they lose it? No, no, cause remember the writer of Hebrews is writing to Jews who are having some doubt. No, you don't lose your, you can't lose your salvation. And so you certainly can't lose it cause you doubt you've got it or you doubt or you think you can lose it. No, but what it does, the good part about the misunderstandings or the confusions or doubt or unsureness as relates to our walk is if you are really a believer, you know what's gonna cause you to do? It's gonna cause you to go back and check and look and just write. Christians go into the word even more and they go to God. So I don't think that that's the case. So anyway, it's a good thing if there's something that's causing some issues and you wonder about the Lord, someone says, yes, you can fall away. Give me the passage as you can fall away. Please don't tell me relations. Cause he says these are people who think that they are attaining salvation by their works. Please don't go to Hebrew six cause if you can then you can't get it back. Give me the passages to talk about this falling away. And I'll show you what it's saying. But anyway, that being case, guys, I thank you so much. I think this was wonderful. I think this is the way that we ought to conduct ourselves right or wrong. It went longer than I thought. I said originally an hour. I'm an hour over my hour estimate. So anyway, guys, God bless you and I will see you, what's the problem today? I will see you tomorrow. God bless you.