 Good afternoon, I'm Patrick Madden, the Executive Director of the National Archives Foundation, and happy July 4th. Thank you for spending part of your holiday with us today. We have had a full day of programs. We're not quite done. We've got one more special one for you. We really appreciate all the viewers who have been watching throughout the day from across the country, and we really are excited to finish our day before the big reading ceremony. In a minute, we will meet our guest, but before that, we want to make sure this is interactive. So jump into the YouTube chat and give us your hometown and state, and I'll give you a shout-out later on. I see we've got some of our regulars in there who have already jumped in. We love to know where folks are watching from, so please do that. Betsy Ross will be taking your questions later, so don't wait till the Q&A. Feel free to put in your questions at any time you want. Well, let's jump right to it. Now you will have one of the world's best-known seamstresses, Betsy Ross. You probably know her from her famous work with our flag, but her story and insights are fascinating. So please, Betsy, are you with us? Happy July 4th. Well, now am I indeed with everyone? It seems to me I am crossing the centuries to be with thee today, and these contrivances I have very little understanding, but they seem to allow me to be heard and to be seen, so I will trust that all is well. And I know not exactly what thy expectations of me might be today, so perhaps it is best if I begin by asking the question that thou shall probably be asking thyself. Who am I? Yes, it seems thou would probably know me best by the name Betsy Ross, but I shall confess to everyone. That is the name that I used when I was a much, much younger woman. I was 24 years old when I was called the name Betsy Ross, and is it not evident to everyone? I am ever so much more than 24 now, and truth be told, my full name is Elizabeth Griscum Ross Ashburn Claypore. A few more names than a woman names, but I shall explain today how I've been come to have this great number of names that I'm known by. I was certainly given the name Elizabeth Griscum. My family named Griscum when I was born just across the river from the city of Philadelphia in the first day of the year of 1752. Now, although my parents gave me the name Elizabeth, I have always used the nickname of Betsy. So as a child, I was Betsy Griscum. Now, when I married, I most certainly took my husband's last name, Ross. But very sadly, after only two years of marriage, my husband John died very suddenly, and I found myself as a young widow, 24 years old, known of the name Betsy Ross. But I was young, and so I expected to find love again, and I did. I married a second time and assumed a new last name. I became Betsy Ashburn. But quite unfortunately, my second husband also died. Now, Joseph was a privateer during the war. And as a privateer, he was to capture British ships, but his own ship was captured at sea. And Joseph, he was taken to prison outside of London, Old Mill Prison. And he languished and died of an illness. I did not know of his passing for quite a long time. But Joseph's death in prison had been recorded in the memorandum book of another prisoner. And at war's end, this fellow prisoner returned to Philadelphia. And he sought me out. And reading from his journal, this man gave me the assurance that Joseph had borne his illness with amazing fortitude, retaining his senses until the last moment of his life. This gave me some comfort. As did the kindness of the man who delivered the sad news to me. That man's name was John Claypool. And John's visits became a little bit more frequent. And to soon how I came to have a third husband. I've been known as Betsy Claypool, my name now. I have been Betsy Ashburn. And it appears most know me best by my first husband's name as Betsy Ross. It is easiest just to call me Betsy. Now I've explained my name. So I must explain my faith. Perhaps I was noticed the plainness of my speech. The thou and thy. Yes, I am a birthright Quaker, having been born into the faith of the Quakers. And we have a preference for that plain language as opposed to you and your thee thou and thy. But although born into the faith, by choice I have joined with the free Quakers. Those disassociated from the faith for various reasons. I myself had been read out of the Quaker meeting when I married my first husband, John Ross. John was of the Church of England, Anglican. And I, being a Quaker, it was prohibited for me to marry out of unity. But we were young. We were in love. So we eloped across the river, went to New Jersey and were married in a tavern. And when the women of the Quaker meeting discovered what I had done, they wished that I would stand before the Assembly and I would repent of the error of my ways. I refused. I could see no reason to repent of the man I loved. And consequently, I was read out of the Quaker meeting. And I worshipped with John, John Ross, at Christchurch in Philadelphia. But with my third husband, John Clay Paul, we have both felt our pull back to our heritage as Quakers. And as I have said, many were disassociated. And so those of us who were no longer a part of the Quakers, we banded together and became free Quakers, making it assured that no one would ever be read out of our meeting. So if someone shall marry outside of the faith, follow the light within. And if one shall choose to pick up arms to defend our country, follow the light within. We call ourselves free, but many will call us fighting Quakers. So be it. I am a fighting Quaker. And I shall be so until the day I die. Now I've explained my name and my faith. I must certainly explain my trade. Yes, yes, I understand. Friends want to call me a seamstress. Isn't it true? I make my living by sewing. But it is not exactly what my trade is. I shall not be making clothing for people. Rather, I shall be making items for a home. I am by trade and training an upholsterer, or an upholder, as we might call it. And my first husband, John and I, we were upholsterers together, meeting in the shop of John Webster in Philadelphia. And truly, there is a division of labor in the upholstery trade where men perform the arduous tasks of stuffing a chair with a sofa, a settee, and a woman in the upholstery trade as all her hands can be filled with with needlework, making lovely curtains and bed hangings. But I also recognize today that I have not been invited to speak with you on this illustrious occasion of our independence because I make bed curtains. No, everyone knows me for making flags. And specifically, friends know me for making a flag for George Washington. And they might wonder, they might wonder, well, why would Washington ever ask me to sew a flag? How would he have known who a young widow was in the city of Philadelphia? I shall have them know that Washington was well aware of who John and Betsy Ross were. For when Washington had been attending the first of the Continental Congresses in the fall of 1774, he had come to the shop that my husband John and I had upon Chestnut Street in Philadelphia. It appears that Mr. Washington had dined with Benjamin True. Benjamin True was an important man in Philadelphia, and it happened that John and I were making furnishings for his daughter who was getting married. Mr. True must have given a good recommendation to Washington for the next day, Washington was in the shop of John Willis, ordering for himself the women's work in the upholstery trade, the making of bed hangings and beds, which he took back with him to Virginia with the knowledge of whom Betsy Ross was. So therefore, it is not surprising that he would seek me out again in the spring of 1776, when I as a widow had a shop upon Arch Street and he desired that I would sew a flag. Mind they, it was not something I had thought to do before, although many widows in the city were indeed making flags, such as Rebecca Young and Cornelia Bridges. But I was eager to make this flag. My husband John had been a supporter of the cause of independence. He had died before he could have served in that continental army. This would be a way for me to honor his memory to make a flag. But I want to make it clear when Washington came to my shop and coming with two important men, of course, with George Ross, my late husband's uncle, and Robert Morris, the financier of our revolution, both men who would soon sign that declaration. When they came, the three of them together, they did not come depending upon me to design the flag. Let that be quite clear to everyone. I have never laid a claim to having designed the flag. Washington came bringing a drawing of what he desired for me to sew. And I certainly recognized the stripes on that flag. Already there were many, many flags with stripes upon them, representing the 13 United Colonies, why Washington himself had raised such a flag with 13 stripes. The very first month of 1776, all the way up in Cambridge, but in the corner were still the colors of the king. When Washington came to my shop, he had recognized that there was a difficulty with identifying the American army with a flag that had England's flag upon it, Great Britain's flag. And so when he brought that drawing, I understood that there would be no changes to the stripes that were on his drawing. But instead of the crosses of the king, Washington had a new element, stars. Not again, I had not chosen the stars. But by all appearances, they would be a logical choice. For Washington's own standard, the flag that he used to identify himself at the headquarters, it had stars upon it. And those stars representing the commander in chief. Why, of course, we would be the 13 United Colonies represented by the stripes, but we would be under the command of George Washington, represented by his stars and not the king's colors. But I will be honest, I am a bit of a bold woman. And when I looked upon the stars, they to my eye appeared very scattered. And so boldly, as a young widow, I recommended to Washington that those stars should be put into that circle, a symbol of unity. And then once again, I recognized that those stars upon the general standard, they each had six points. I had a practical solution. I told Washington that I remembered a small sewing trick that I had learned when I was just a child. And that I thought that rather than making his six pointed stars, that I would be able to take a bit of cloth. Just in the manner, as I am taking this small bit of paper here, and that I would be able to fold the cloth several times, all with the purpose of creating only a single point. And when completed, I would merely take my scissors to the cloth. I would cut, and yet one small snip would be all that I would be needing to create a five pointed star. Might I say, it appears that Washington was duly impressed as I see many flags now with five pointed stars upon them. But again, it is not a design of the flag. It is for me, a matter of production. I make my flags faster, because I make my stars faster. But trends oftentimes wonder, was it the first flag that I made for Washington? I cannot imagine such a thing. Again, Washington had already raised a flag. But I wonder, I wonder that in that spring of 1776, that perhaps that flag I made for Washington might have been the first flag that joined together stars and stripes. But I shall never know. And to understand, though, nevertheless, it is indeed the flag that we now have, the flag with stars and stripes upon it. And I have continued to make flags. Gracious, I'm not a young woman. I did not just make one flag for Washington of my age now. And of my name, Betsy Claypool, Elizabeth Claypool, I am enjoying my most prolific years of flag making orders have come in sometimes for 50 flags at a time. But I always remember the first flag that I made for Washington. And I have told my story to my children. And I'll tell my story to my grandchildren. But I shall forever wonder who might my grandchildren someday tell of what I have accomplished. Well, friends, that has been so kind to listen to an old woman today. And I certainly recognize that there might be questions that I would like to ask of me. And I must ask Mr. Madden, who's been so very kind to invite me today, if he would find out if there was anyone at all who would like to ask a question of me, Mr. Madden. Yes, indeed. And as you can tell, I'm a fan of the five pointed star myself. We do have we have a wonderful group of people who are watching and learning about your life. We have folks from the Washington DC area, Virginia, Maryland, where are you, Florida? They've been with us all day, Buffalo, New York, Green, Ohio, Martinez, California, Fairbanks, Alaska, Monsignola, Indiana, Annapolis, Port Angeles, and Seattle, Washington, the country is well covered. So they're very curious about your story. And there are some questions that have come in. I do want to encourage folks to use the chat function to add your questions to the ones that we already have. And so I guess before we get into some maybe specifics, can you talk a little bit about Philadelphia, about the time around the funding and what Philadelphia was like to live? Philadelphia was a city in great turmoil. It seems that everyone thinks that we all wanted to be free from England. And that is the furthest from the truth. We were divided. There were many, many who desired that we should still remain under the king. And so they were loyal to the crown. And then those rebels who wanted us to be free, well, of course, they were looked terribly at them. And then there were those like most of the Quakers who just wanted peace. And they did not want to have to take sides. They attempted neutrality. And so therefore, if I might say anything about Philadelphia, it was a city at the time when independence was to be declared that was adrift with many different kinds of opinions. It was not a peaceful city. But once our independence was declared, then people did have to make a choice. And there were some who left the city, the wealthy, and others, well, they learned to keep their opinions to their self. Always war is about power. Who is in power? Who is not in power? It is a difficult time. I hope that helps you to better understand. Very good. Thank you. The flag design, one of our viewers is asking about, you mentioned others who were making flags in Philadelphia. I think there's a question about the design of the flag. Obviously, Washington brought you a design. Francis Hopkinson. Can you talk about Israel? I know he did other designs. They might understand that Mr. Hopkinson is a well-known man. Mr. Hopkinson is a man of many great talents. And yes, I have most certainly heard that he put into Congress for his services for making the flag of the United States of America. Now, mind the first time that he put it in, it was for the flag of the United States of America. But then when he submitted it to Congress again for his services, he corrected himself. And he said, for the great naval flag of America. And then he had other items that he was charging for. As everyone shall know, Mr. Hopkinson designed seals. And the charges for the seals, well, they could be eight, nine pounds and such. And yet when it came to designing the flag, he made a similar charge. Now, let us all think together. How could one make the charge for a device with all kinds of emblems in it at the same charge as a simple flag that had nothing more than stars and stripes? Oh, come, dear friends, I am quite most certain that whatever Mr. Hopkinson had designed, it was not one with merely stars and stripes upon it. It must have been, as he corrected himself and said, the great naval flag of the United States. What did it look like? I have never seen. But I am well assured that even Congress realized something was a miss. Mr. Hopkinson desired as his payment from Congress a quarter cast of the public wine, which be considered a merely token gift. And yet Congress refused his request with the words saying of the sort others had a hand in the design. And with that, I believe that's probably all that I can say about Mr. Hopkinson. Very talented, but exactly what flag he meant, I think is quite questionable, the naval flag, whatever it might have been. Thank you for letting me explain that. Very good. Did you have the opportunity to meet George Washington later in life after or did you do more work for him? Certainly during these years when he is the president, everyone will see Mr. Washington about in the city of Philadelphia riding and such. But I am a humble upholsterer. He has chosen for the furnishings in the president's house some of the better known upholsterers in the city. But nevertheless, as upholsterers, we will work together many times. And when someone has too much work to do, they will contract with another upholsterer. So perhaps I cannot rightly say that I have had many other times when I have met Washington. Nevertheless, I always have the memory of the time that I made him bed hangings and also when he came to my home and asked me to sew a flag. One of our viewers is asking if it's true that you distracted a certain Colonel and delayed his arrival to the Battle of Trenton? Say that one more time so I want to make clear that I've heard what has been said about me. Is it true that you distracted and delayed a Colonel and his arrival to the Battle of Trenton helping our cause? Such lies, such misunderstandings, I shall assure they I have not. I can equally assure they that the line of roses from which this story has come is not the same as my family. I am again pleased to be able to say that publicly to everyone, sometimes we get our lines mixed because rose is a common name. Whoever the widow of Trenton was, it was not the same rose that I was. A different Elizabeth Rose. Is that understood? Understood. Thank you for clearing that up. Yes. Very good. Well, we are coming towards the end of our time and I was just curious, do you have any any closing thoughts for our audience? We have now perhaps I do and perhaps a bit rather serious but as we are celebrating today perhaps it is important to say. I understand that when flags were first made and especially as I made them, they were made for identification purposes to know who was friend, who was foe for communication purposes to let us know who was again there and where our loyalties lie. These were important reasons for flags but more and more as our nation has grown, I have seen our flag become a more important symbol. A symbol of who we are as a people and for the freedom that we treasure so dearly and the values that are symbolized in our flag, they are not only our heritage but they are also our future. In these values, they must be instilled afresh in each generation through the strong and unbroken thread of unity as a nation so that we might learn to grow and to thrive together and so I shall hope that as the flags are raised and we shall shout our hazzars to the flag today that we allow it to symbolize ourselves. Never has it been set by Congress what the colors of the flag mean but commonly we consider them to be red for valor and bravery, white for innocence and purity and blue perseverance, honor, let our flag always be flown in honor for it was sown with great sacrifice. So thank you again for allowing me to visit and again happy 4th to everyone. Thank you sir. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of your day. I shall. Lovely having you. Thank you sir. Well as we come to the end of our our programming you might have noticed I've changed my jacket. Unfortunately this suit is not available at the National Archives store but we do have some other things related to our nation's history the records the holdings that are fun curious and stylish we also saw many of the founding documents that wouldn't surprise you and I've saved a few things for last year we have a terrific framed flag and honor that's a Ross program as well as some some great socks and fun from fun products for some of our younger female watchers and then of course we have this wonderful crystal archives model of the National Archives building in Washington DC and the historic building that is all available at thenationalarchivesstore.org so I hope you'll go and visit and help support the National Archives Foundation this weekend we have a 25 off sale on our patriotic collection please use represent 25 as the code that's the word represent and the number 25 to get your 25 off so I've just shown you a few things we have many other things on the on the e-store site that might catch your attention I want to thank our sponsors for today John Hancock ARP and Dicama without their support the July 4th at the National Archives program would not be possible and of course thank you to our members who support us throughout the year and all of our programs and civics outreach if you're not a member please visit archives foundation.org and don't forget to connect with us on social media July 4th there's still several more hours to share with us what you've been up to and use the hashtag archives July 4 show us a little patriotic love and follow us on social media I want to thank some folks who have made all these programs possible thank you to the National Archives Education staff in DC led by Nick Coddington of course Breon Robertson and Sarah Lyons Davis who provided some more of the educational programming today and production support Tom Nastic, Jamie Atkinson and John Hein and today's production partner figure agency and my team at the at the National Archives Foundation many of whom are down at the National Archives building today hosting a block party and family crafts and festivals so we've been prepping for months staying up late getting up early and I'm grateful for the teamwork and collaboration that made this all come together so thank you to Camille, Rebecca, Liana, Laura, Matt, Margaret, Steve, Jason, Angela, Sven, James, Brandon and Jim great job to everyone on behalf of the National Archives Foundation Board of Directors want to thank you for spending part of your day with us we've got an amazing program coming up at four o'clock it is the special presentation of the ceremony and reading of the Declaration of Independence by the National Archives whether this is your first July 4th as a citizen or generations of your family are coming together to celebrate it's a special day we hope to see you shortly for our last program until then remember what has passed as prologue wave your flags enjoy the day and happy July 4th from the National Archives Foundation okay we're clear