 We're back from that commercial break. So we're hit, guys. And inadvertently, kind of the whole rest of the industry is now latched onto high intensity in some form or fashion as maybe defined differently than we would use it. But they're definitely calling it that. Rather than trying to find out how little can they work, they're trying to. And then now, the pendulum is swinging totally in the opposite direction. How much hard work can we do? Not just work, but how much really ridiculous hard work the crossfits, the insanity, these things. Why do you think all of a sudden hard work is in vogue? I mean, it's just this kind of brain sort of picking out a lot of wild. All of a sudden, those of us who've been attempting to just work really, really hard for a really long time, now all of a sudden, everybody else wants to work really, really hard too, even if they're defining it differently. Bill, I don't know. I just can't. I want to think there's a cultural light, guys. But I don't think there is. No, I think it's just the fetish nature of the exercise industry. I think it's just its turn. The next thing. It's just its turn. Now, in the literature side of things, the pendulum is really swung towards high intensity and finding out how brief and what the minimal effective dose is. So in the scientific field, they're really swinging our way. And they've swung so far our way, I'm just waiting for the backlash and the pendulum to swing in the other direction. Why all the hard, I think a lot of it probably spawns out a crossfit. It's done a beautiful job of tapping into the 30 to 40-year-old yuppie mentality of Johnny Quest and being the best that you can. They're not going to know what Johnny Quest is. No, they're not. No, this can't be that. That can't be it. That can't be it. But just that whole, you know, I'm special forces. That's the special forces. No, it's funny because Irwin McCore with his movement idea, I think he actually has something there as far as trying to change physical education in America or in anywhere for that matter. Because one of the things I picked up in graduate school was really interesting was that this idea of not being strong enough in your body to be useful in other things rather than just being a walking sculpture. And actually, in the physical education literature, there's a backlash against sports-based physical education because kids can opt out so early and they learn nothing about how to move. They don't even learn the game because if they can get tagged out in first thing, they're not comfortable on their bodies. They're just out. There's a big movement in the 50s and 60s that was very much like move-nath in elementary school physical education. I mean, I remember when I was in middle school, they even had a book about it called Toughin' Up. And it was all these kids, you know, monkey bars and doing the human flag and all this sort of stuff. Teaching the human flag to kids. Yeah. That's crazy. And that just gradually fell out of vogue. And now, well, I can't imagine. Yeah, I was taught, I mean, it was in my talk earlier when I was saying how, you know, we're in a highly stimulating environment. And so these kids are always clicking the dopamine button. It's no surprise that boys sit in class and they just go, oh my God, it is so boring. But I can remember, you know, 15 minutes of recess, twice, you know, you had your lunch recess and you had like two intermittent, I was eight, nine years old, 15 minute recess. I go out and scream like a kid, run around, and I could sit for the next two hours and pay attention. Like, that was all it took. And it just, you know, I just, hopefully it swings back in that other direction. Well, you know, when I was a kid, we had the president's physical fitness test twice here. That still existed when I was in high school, yeah. But I haven't heard anything of it now. They actually, in my kid's school, they had a presidential fitness award thing. Last year they did away with it because it was, you know, encouraging competitivism and wasn't fair to the kids that weren't as athletic and in turn that was discouraging the less athletic kids from participating. How do you tease out that data and be like, clearly it was the presidential fitness program that made this kid get a D in math, you know? There's no data. There's no data. Dude, it's just a, you know, it's just a- Now the political correctness gone wild. The high schools in my town, part of their gym, they have exercise machines, cardio machines. So it is more fitness-based than sports-based. But it's just like corporate fitness, right? If the top guy is a fitness guy, they can justify the corporate fitness center. Right. If that top guy leaves and the accounts come in, it's gone. Yeah, yeah. It's gone. What do we use the square footage for? Get rid of it. Right, yeah. So it's the top guy's, you know, preference, I guess. Well, you know, it's funny. You can see that in places you think should have, should actually be on board with this. Like we were as a company trying to get in with St. David's Hospital in Austin there. And we're trying and they built this beautiful like 2,000 square foot like fitness center for their people kind of adjunctive to their McKinsey physical therapy clinic. And the things like that cobwebs. Like nobody's using it at the rate that they thought it would be used. And it's, it always blows my mind how many times I'm driving across town and I drive past one of the hospitals and all the nurses are outside smoking. Oh yeah. Just like a litany. And then there's the guy of course with whose drug is IV out too. He's out there smoking. Yeah. It's just like, I don't know. One of the things that came away from my graduation about health education is like you can't just rationally present things to people. You can't just be like, here is the interpersonal, like dare, dare to keep kids off drugs, doesn't. Like drop the car from the crane. Now I remember what I was going to talk about. Here we go. Drop the car from the crane and it crashes. Like this is what happens if you're high and you get in a car wreck and all the kids go, cool. Yeah. They don't get excited about that. And health and fitness simultaneously, you have a whole slew of people who need it and they can't be reached rationally. They need like structural changes to their lifestyle or they need some amount of, some amount of, I'm gonna say community intervention is perhaps too strong a word but being able to facilitate getting over some of those hurdle excuses like you're talking about in a marketing sense. But we in the fitness industry kind of have, well not we necessarily in this room but the fitness industry in general, they have the sort of highest, shiniest fruit. I use this analogy I go, if you're under an apple tree and you're hungry, what do you do? You're reaching up and you grab an apple. But if you're in the fitness industry, what do you do? You try to climb to the top of the tree and get that apple. Like inherently it becomes this incredibly complex thing, overly complex thing right out of the gate for so many people and if they can start it, it's inherently unsustainable. They crash, they never go back. This is the New Year's resolution cycle. Well, and this is what we talked about eight years ago, 10 years ago, which was where HIT, if it is a phenomenon, say, dropped the ball was by emphasizing how hard and how brutal the workout was and how big you've been getting and how efficient. But that wasn't what the general public, that wasn't appealing to the general public. The general public would have found appealing half hour, once or twice a week. That, you know, the real, the real, go do all this other stuff you'd rather be doing. But the real, yes, yes. Early Nautilus marketing, and I don't even know if it was marketing at the time, was look how efficient we made strength training so we have more time to go practice, go do your martial arts, go do your sports. And then somehow it got turned into- You know, it really seemed to succeed in spite of itself because I don't know if it was like this for the Nautilus fitness centers for you, like it was for me back in the mid-70s when they just blew up everywhere. But what you got from the community that was just clamoring, like standing in line in the morning to get in, it was like a Nautilus center was like Studio 54 or something. You know, it was like a big dude with a velvet rope just to get in kind of thing. That was genuine though. That wasn't manufactured like nowadays. Right, but it didn't come out of their marketing. It came in spite of their marketing. It was just like, oh, these things are cool looking and it's different and all the beautiful people are doing it so everyone wants to do it. They have nothing to do with their actual marketing approach. It just happened organically. You think about how much Arthur made in spite of the fact he didn't like have non-competes with the people buying his equipment or like the, Darden could talk more about this, but like sell these lines of equipment and it was like the agreement was like two lines. It was like, it eros away. People could get out of it in a very reasonable way and go off and somehow not do the Nautilus methods and also put it in. That whole thing, I think, my opinion is it was a black swan. It was a magical time and place, mixed in with a handful of geeks like us that were reading all the magazines and frustrated with what our results were and the whole KC Theater thing. I mean, just in the personality it was just really a unique thing and ever since then people have been trying to recreate it. I don't think the circumstances will ever be there for it to happen. Well, and just there's so much information that you can have access to now that the ability to be paralyzed by analysis in that black swan instance is because you have a strong personality, a very unique piece of equipment that though he wasn't reinventing the wheel per se. I mean, who was at Xander with the old resistance training equipment in the late 1800s. I mean, he wasn't reinventing the wheel. It was like Paleo as a movement is not reinventing anything. I mean, Graham, maker of the Graham Cracker back in the turn of the 1800s with health food. And then I'm forgetting the name of some of the guys in the late 1800s with these like full-on, you're gonna be barefoot, you're gonna be naked, you're gonna be training. I'm a renormic fadden. Yeah, I'm a renormic fadden. That's right, that's right, the lion. And so that's exactly right. Who'd go off into the woods and eat various cash? Well, who's physical culture city is a town away from where my studio is. He lived to be 87. I mean, he totally could be luck, but that's, you know, of the time that's a really long lifespan. Now, you know, so that brings up an interesting thing because the Xander machines were late 1800s. Right. Okay, and then World War I pretty much destroyed most of them. And so you have few survived, but they were predominantly in Europe, World War I destroyed most of the work. But I got some reprinted books from the time. And the same arguments, three weights versus machines, body weight exercises versus machine exercises, it's the same arguments from the late 1800s to now. It's a 150 year old argument. And Xander's stuff, as far as biomechanics physiology goes, it's right there. Like Jones said, if I knew about the equipment, I would save myself a lot of time. Moment of exercise, I worked out the whole thing about the overlapping torque, it's there. He talks about Swan's law and how muscle torque varies over the range of a joint. And then he talks about varying the resistance by where it is under lever. And I was like, this is unbelievable. And the same, it's the same argument from then. But even more so impressive when you read his stuff was how prescient he was in terms of realizing the public health implications and the effects it had on mitigating against disease. Well, his advertising at the time, again, some of the stuff I find online, it's all health, you know, relieve these health conditions. It's all that. Now, in fairness though, he also had massage machines and tapping machines and body rolling machines, which, I don't know about. Yeah, that's right. I don't know, but it might've felt good. It was way from the quantify, because one of his arguments was, and it was an argument in the sense that we have these arguments today. There was more of an acceptance by the manual gymnastics people of his work. It was like an acceptance of each other's work, but just, you know. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, but yeah. So they published each other's stuff. But his thing was, look, if you're gonna have a person massage someone or do manual resistance, that person's fatigue is gonna interfere with how you chart that person's progress. The person delivering the massage whereas if you use a machine, you're quantifying what the massage is or the resistance. Well, in any sense of the physical culture, kind of wars of Europe of the time. Invariably, they all had a massage component. They all had, which is the weirdest thing. So late 1800s, you had the check method, the sweetest method where we get sweetest massage, and it was almost like physical culture Boy Scouts at a nationalist level. It was really kind of strange, but at the same time, we still do some of that stuff today. There's a great web article from, I think he's an engineer or scientist and XKCD is the web comic. The comic title I think is like the inevitable March of Time and it's arguments from 150 years ago about how nobody sits down to write a letter anymore, all communications entirely too fast, kids aren't listening to their parents. It's the same argument for 150 years about what we say about text messaging now. So, and with the inevitable March of Time, sort of as it is, we've come to the end of our hour. I hope you all have enjoyed it. Doug McGuff, we've got this guy over here who's told us all about wonderful, wonderful things. No, Bill, please, of course, I know who you are. But think about all you've learned today and all the lessons and you've fallen into the links. Dig even deeper and I think you'll come to appreciate even more of what these two have been able to tell you today. Take care.