 Professor at Michigan State University, yes we did when you guys from outside of the state did for this, so be nice to us and throw it down for this week. So Bo, why don't you go and go? Luckily I'm not a big, well I shouldn't say big fan, but I don't know much about college sports and so forth, so I won't bring any of that up. So my name is Bo Norby, I'll give you just a short background of who I am and what I've been doing and so forth originally. Most of my life I lived in Denmark but I came to the US in 1995 and I spent like three years in California. And then I went to Michigan State and did my graduate work there. There I worked on bowline tuberculosis because I was right after that, that broke in Michigan. And then I had the pleasure of spending seven years in College Station, Texas at my first, I'm not my first real job, but after I got my education at least. So I was there for seven years and then a little over two years ago I got back to Michigan State so I've been there since then. For the last ten years or so I've been working mainly on antimicrobial resistance, so primarily foodborne pathogens that can be transmitted from farm animals through the food to humans. And I've been working a little bit of bowline leukosis virus too and a little bit of transition cow diseases. So doing this work on antimicrobial resistance and it all started with actually comparing resistance in bacteria from organic and conventional farms. And we did it in pigs but there are a couple of groups at Michigan State that did it in organic dairies and conventional dairies. So we learned a little bit about treatment options and the different production systems have. And when I got back to Michigan State I talked to my old advisor and we thought that there aren't really a lot of treatment options. There are at least treatment options that have been evaluated and so forth for treating clinical mastitis in cows on organic dairy farms. So there's some information on some products that might be efficacious. So at least in respect to killing, so non-antibiotic compounds or substances that might be able to kill bacteria that we thought we'd look into. So all of you dairy people? No? What do you do? If you don't mind me asking, how are you? How do you grow beef? I saw a lot of beef cows in Texas for sure. I'm sorry? You do have dairy goats. Most of you organic producers? Hopefully. I'm not a mastitis expert for sure and I'm certainly not an organic expert either but we learned a little bit along the way with this project that we've been going on. So I just want to briefly thank, first of all, Sarah, for funding the project. And as Beth said, I mean it is heavily on research but kind of during the whole project we had interactions with producers and organic organizations and so forth. And so kind of helps tie everything together and as Beth said in the introduction, I mean I'm certainly here to learn as well. So if you have any good insight I would definitely like to hear it and of course for letting me speak down here today. I just want three peoples that I'm working with that I would like to thank for their help. And then John Rawcliffe, he's the general manager I think of Unique Manuka Honey Factor Association in New Zealand and that's the product we've been working with thus far. So a quick overview. I'll talk a little bit about milk quality and mastitis and some of the current options for mastitis treatment focused on organic. Some new potential options and a little bit of concluding remarks in the end. What do you guys see as the main health issues with your cows, if you don't mind me asking? Mastitis you think? Well so it seems to be still the main issue on both conditional, I'm sorry, conventional and organic dairies. There are a lot of cost estimates but clinical mastitis at least have been estimated to cost $150 to $200 per episode. So that includes treatments, loss of milk, added labor and so forth. So one estimate of medication costs for clinical mastitis would seem to be about twice as much on conventional dairies than it is on organic dairies. But in general comparing between the two types of production systems can be quite difficult because management is a huge thing and it's something that's really hard to control for when you're comparing between production systems. It definitely costs the US dairy industry whether it's conventional or organic, a lot of money every year. So for the organic as you know I mean you don't have the antibiotic treatment options. So herd health I guess in general are based much more on preventive measures and management and so forth. Both on conventional and organic production I mean reducing the occurrence and severity of mastitis is prevention, promote health, vaccinations, good nutrition and particularly much less stress perhaps on the organic than on a conventional farm. And cows are really like consistency so that's important. So on conventional dairies at least antibiotics are typically used for treatment of clinical cases of mastitis or new cases but also very much used as dry cow treatment so when you dry the cows off. So as you know those are not allowed on organic farms and I'll get back to that a little bit later. In respect to milk quality on organic and conventional farms I mean it seems like what's available in the literature at least that they are pretty comparable. But most of the information now is from Europe and at least looking at the information from Europe it's important to remember that there they can use antibiotics limited they have longer withdrawal times and so forth but there can be limited use of antibiotics. So at least a measure of overall health status in respect to mastitis and so bulk tank somatic cell count seem to be relatively similar between conventional and organic herds but there was one dangerous study that identified that the longer herds have been organic the lower the bulk tank somatic cell counts were. So one thing to be a little bit careful about trying to compare information from different countries across different production systems as I just mentioned before is that management is very different and also requirements in respect to recording health incidents and so forth might be different. Particularly recording of treatments and so forth so quite often or at least in the EU I mean there's a lot of recording required in respect to using antibiotics for mastitis treatment but there aren't any requirements in respect to. Non antibiotic treatments for mastitis so if you're basing studies based on treatments rather than actually occurrences of disease there might be some differences between them so. This is just from from a study that was actually led by MSU in in the late 90s and early 2000s where they looked at bulk tank somatic cell counts on 99 conventional farms and 32 organic farms so. These are just the categories of bulk tank somatic cell counts and you see they're relatively similar that seem to be a little bit higher. Bulk tank somatic cell counts in organic but this is just one study if you take all the studies across most of. Countries and so forth it some studies will find that it seemed to be a little bit higher on organic farms some find some will find that it's higher on conventional farms so it kind of goes both ways. So going back to to the antimicrobial resistant for just a second so when it comes to to conventional farms I mean there's been a lot of pressure from from the government different consumer and. Organizations and so forth in respect to reducing the use of antibiotics on on any type of livestock production so. That is one reason why. Alternatives to to antibiotics for actually direct treatment of mastitis. Might be a venue and and that's what we thought there's. Also a decrease in the market incentives for developing new drugs and then of course as you know I mean the organic industry is growing there's more milk produced more cows and so. And then there are really few tested alternatives products for treatment of mastitis I mean I've only been able to find one. Of a product that's available in the US there's some other studies that have been done other places in in the world. Skip that one okay so I'll talk a little bit about mastitis I said I'm not a mastitis expert but. Maybe here we can have a little bit of of discussion of what you are doing both to prevent mastitis and what you might do when you have clinical cases and so forth I definitely. Like to hear that. Mastitis and and the public prevention of mastitis some of the treatment options that are available for organic producers right now and and I'll finish with. A little bit of information on the research project that's that we are that we are doing. Have to about. 20 past or something like that. Okay okay. I'll keep an eye on it I guess. Oh that's okay yeah. Inflammation of the mammary gland plant mastitis so it doesn't necessarily have to be an infection caused by bacteria, algae or protozoa but that's definitely the most common cause of of mastitis. Most of the economic losses. So whether it's treatment costs or loss of milk and so forth are due to. Staffler cocci stricter cocci and coliform mastitis but. I think that's probably close to a hundred organisms that have been. Identified as as having a course in mastitis so but these are the most common ones. And then they are typically split up into environmental pathogens and contagious pathogens and then kind of the opportunistic bacteria that. Quaggulase negative streptococci. You have to be a little bit careful because everything is not black and white right so just because we call them a contagious mastitis pathogen doesn't mean that. They can't infect the cow through the environment I mean if if a cow has a staff infection and she's leaking. In one of the stalls or something like that another cow comes in lies down and it can certainly be spread that way as well so through the environment but they're considered contagious. And then same thing for the environmental bacteria causing mastitis you can have a cow that. That had an environmental bacterial but. Other infection and if you're not clean between milkings and so forth they can certainly be spread that way as well but most of that the environmental spread. Is from the environment. Clinical mastitis typically just. Define as having some sort of visible abnormalities so whether it's to the bag or whether it's to the milk. Cows produce lip. Less milk as I mentioned earlier with mastitis so typically they'll be either. On the heat it'll be sensitive to the top so might be some smell swelling and then usually defined as as mild moderate or severe in in their presentation so. The most severe ones are the ones that have a really sudden onset pretty much just watery milk and typically the cow is systemically affected as well I mean she might. You'll be able to see it on her behavior. Detection do most of you do for stripping when when you milk I assume you you'll be doing that right so. Do you strip into a cup or on a boot on the floor to check. For anything in the milk. In the gutter right right. Exactly and that's that's what most people do the only thing to be careful about it's not the only thing one thing to be careful about when when you do the for stripping and so forth is not to contaminate your hands and. And also the area in which you're working I mean so if you can't do it in the gutter or something like that I mean you should try to to get it. Removed I mean lost in the way or flushed away so so you don't have the contamination from from cow to cow. Subclinical mastitis no visible changes in the order of milk. But there is an infectious agent in there it's just not so severe an infection that that it actually changes the appearance of the milk. And those can definitely be a source of infections of other cows because. It's something that you're not aware of and so we'll get back to that a little bit later in in respect to some things that you can do I mean I'm sure that that a lot of you. If you know that you have cows with for instance contain contagious mastitis pathogen it could be a staff or something like that do many of you milk them later in or last or. Something like that usually. Okay so milk in a pale and disinfect what you use. How do most of you do most of you do regular checks for subclinical mastitis like using a California mastitis test or. Any of you on D. H. I. testing you are so once a month you'll you'll get somatic cell counts on individual cows and so forth do they do any culturing for you as well. They will they will if you requested if you want to you know see exactly what. Organism you're dealing with culture test right and also some other independent labs do like Eastern labs up in the Zyna Ohio. Sometimes right do any of you have any plans for sit in place for for culturing of of cows or. But you know about a Nikki Bear and we did it and started trying right and we've also once a year paid the extension. The New York team comes will come through and check right and equipment and culture every cow for it. And we're looking to see if we can get quicker. So you do some or at least did some culturing on your culture data that are over the years. Okay I mean one thing is that sometimes with. If you have cows that are maybe high somatic cell counts over a couple of test days or something that might be some to potentially pull out and and get culture so you have an idea about. What what it might be be causing it any of you have your bulk tank milk cultured. Or just general bacterial counts or. Call form test I'm not okay excellent so yeah those are definitely some of. Some of the options available so typically as inflammation increases the somatic cell count will be increases increase as well and and. You know the California mastitis test is relatively easy and and a good measure of whether you have some some issues in a quarter or or not. Of course the DSA testing and some places will just have conductivity or something like that that are being measured every day. On the cows just as a measure of how many cells are in the milk and so forth so that can be an indication. I just wanted to say a couple of things about my status and you and and. And the public just just in general I definitely don't mean to preach here but all of you know that that. Mastitis decrease in productivity decrease in the quality of the milk and so forth. Seems like pasteurization at least have been taken care of most of the issues of transmission of pathogens and. Tsunotic pathogens of pathogens that are spread between humans and animals. But there seem to be an increased market for for raw milk and and at least raw milk products. It's much more common I think in in Europe than it is here so. In that respect there certainly are some possibilities for for spread of diseases. I'm not sure if if most of the bacteria that are causing my status is necessarily a huge public health issue. I mean except when they're there in really really high numbers. I mean enough bacteria no matter which one it is high enough numbers I think it can make us sick right so. But that's that's definitely something to take into consideration and then there's also the animal welfare issue. I mean if you just look at look at ourselves I mean we feel crappy when we are when we are sick. So there's an issue about keeping keeping animals healthy as well. And you know the more healthy they are the the fewer days where they aren't feeling well they have. Milking and prevention of my status is really a huge topic and and I get a little bit of information here from from some other sources. No stress is really key to to having a good milking so both in respect to to melt let down and so forth. I mean if cows are stressed some of the hormones that are released might have felt effect milk let down. Check the milk as we talked about by by pre stripping. Any of you do routinely washing and pre dipping of of others and teats before milking. Yeah I love you do OK. It's important to to give the disinfectant some some time to work before you you wipe it off. But all of these things help to milk let down so much smoother milking and a faster milking. And then after you know everybody had their routines when they're doing these things but but the machines should be put on within. One and a half to two minutes after you finish your pre pre milking routine. Adjustment of the unit as somebody mentioned at least once a year or twice a year. Have it tested make sure that that everything works as it is and as it should. It's important to detect the unit without vacuum on it and not over milking the cows because that affects teeth and in the teeth canal and may make them more open for bacteria to be able to come into them. Post dipping probably most of you do as well and I'm sure I was just going to say one thing in the winter and you may be doing it already. But so you don't send cows out with with wet teeth. So you shouldn't be sitting out with cows with wet teeth. I mean they can get frost damage and so forth. So at least let the posted work for for 30 seconds or so and then wipe them off so they're not wet when they when they go out. 90 seconds every day is that standard protocol that the hormone leaves takes about 90 seconds. I mean so it's from the start of when you start doing everything. So if you count the time from when you start stripping. Well it's not necessarily from the start but I mean you start stripping and you do the pre dipping and and so forth. And then after you finish that. Yeah I mean the most common reference that I see is about 90 seconds and so forth because it does take a little bit of time for for everything to just a couple of things for for therapeutic and just choices and and milk quality in in in general. So some of the things that you can do with getting somatic cell counts of individual cows and and culturing and so forth is strategically pull out the cows that consistently have high somatic cell counts and have mastitis again and again and and so forth. Whether cows have it in just one quarter or whether they have it in multiple quarter and then also if if the pathogens that are associated with it are some of those bacteria or other organisms that that typically we can't really treat for. This is mainly in respect to antibiotics but there are just some of them that become chronic and they're really difficult to deal with. I just put this on here and it's it's associated a little bit with with the advantages of of culturing if you can and and have an interest in it because even on on conventional there is where antibiotics can be used. There are at least some organisms that is questionable whether it's actually does any good to to use antibiotics and particularly coliform mastitis is there are a couple of products now that that have shown that they have some effect. But one of the neat things about it is also that, you know, for instance, a big dairy that's associated with with the university started culturing all the cows and they made treatment decision based on these cultures and they were able to reduce their antibiotic use but about by about 50%. So from a public perception cost and so forth I mean there there certainly is some some value if if you can do it. And then the last thing I think I'm going to say about milk quality in particular or specifically is is how you how you deal with it. I mean, how many of you guys milk all by yourself or do you have people that help milking people that help milking. I mean, right. So teamwork is is really important. I took this from Dr. Ron Ersk and something that he wrote for the National Mastitis Council in MC recently. He is a Mastitis expert but right now they actually have a USDA grant as well looking at Mastitis but rather than treatments and how to prevent it because I think the general thought is we have pretty good handle on that. Now we need to deal with with the people that are actually doing it. It's actually quite a common thread in a lot of research that are being doing now and Sarah has been leading it that that there's a huge sociologic psychological component of how we deal with diseases and so forth. So when it comes to to treatment and protocols and so forth, I mean, it's human nature to drift away from from things that we are doing. I mean, and most most commonly we just not we don't do it conscientiously. I mean, it's consciously we just drift away from from what we are doing. So it's important they found to have regular scheduled meetings where you just go over the the protocols for in this example, Mastitis prevention, milking treatments and so forth. And also important is that people that are working, whatever it is that we are doing that we know why we are doing it, not just you have to do this. It's very important to also inform people why they are doing it. And then his analogy is and I thought I thought of many more analogies, I guess, but the analogy is basketball coach is not just going to show up on on the first date and tell people how to position for a rebound. He does it over and over again through a season and so forth. And the same when it comes to when it comes to to education and communication with with people that are doing different tasks on your on your dairies. There's a lot of very good information available on setting up health plans and improving working with milk quality and Mastitis and so forth. And I meant to look up but I'm sure that OSU actually has some information and there's definitely a lot of information from Cornell University, the milk quality lab and from from Wisconsin as well. And I don't mean to leave anybody out on on purpose here. These are red Danish cows. A very traditional milk breed in in Denmark, but they are they are also seem like more and more are going to hosting hosting fridges. I actually, my neighbor had red cows. So they're very nice cows anyway. I'm sorry. You have red cows. Okay. I actually my significant other her grandfather imported some red cows to to Michigan, but I think they just kind of been deluded out now. These are eight points out of the 10 points about from NMC and respect to practical other health plans. So what Linda Tyskovsky from Cornell as he's at least yours at Cornell at the time just took eight of those 10 out because the others were related to treatment of with antibiotics and so forth. I'm not going to go into them in in detail where time at the end. I mean, we can talk a little bit more about it, but there is a lot of of good information in there. Okay, so on to some of the substances. I've been able to find a little bit of of information about because sometimes prevention just isn't enough and you end up with mastitis, right? So there's very little information available to what organic producers use in the US. There's a little bit more information from the EU disclaimer up front here just because I put something on here doesn't mean that you should do it. It's a survey of what people reported that they were doing and particularly putting anything into the quarter had to be very, very careful about because most instances it's illegal because it's considered an adulteration of the milk which is illegal. But in the EU it seemed like homeopathy and particularly other other liniments like peppermint and mint ointments rocked on the others were used a lot also frequent milking. Very little story. I never read James Harriet actually until I was done with with vet school. But there was one one story that he was telling there was a guy he came out to a cow had mastitis and he had told him, you know, strip it out frequently or keep milking it. And he came back the next morning and the guy was sitting sleeping with his head up against the cow because he'd been out there and he's just been milking milking the cow pretty much all night and the mastitis was gone. So it probably helps. I'm an epidemiologist. I work with animals in populations. That's kind of my specialty. That's an N of one or a sample size of one for two months. But but definitely frequent milking does work. Some used aloe infusions in the others. Don't do that. From the US. There's been a few studies that looked at what at least would be used on organic farms and there were some things that were used into memory. I wouldn't do that. But other treatments systemic use of way products or injection garlic tincture aspirin with vegetable oils electrolytes and vitamin B's and so forth. And I'm going to get back to Hubert Karman later. He's a veterinarian in Pennsylvania that is really the expert on on treatment of organic dairy cows. He has. There's a lot of information. There's a lot of good information in in respect to just herd health and diseases on dairy farms. 50 minutes. What was I going to say? That's okay. It's not your fault. Anyway. I'll just move on to that. Let me just go back once. What are the most common things that that you use for for cows with mastitis if if you don't mind sharing as treatment? He puts a peppermint oil on the bag. Right. I haven't put anything. Peppermint oil? Yeah. I've never put anything in it. Integral. Right. Which is organic. Right. My opinion on the stripping I'm going to just say so. Right. We don't strip. Opinion on stripping. It's much more important and our milk was 15 to 20 units and the milkers are busy and it's much more occasionally one won't milk out. And my opinion is it's much more better to make sure you don't miss anything at the end rather than the beginning. If you're squirting, your gloves get dirty. If there's, we do have staff in our herd. Right. And we've gotten rid of that mostly just by calling. Right. And just it's just awful rare. Milk 100 cows mostly. It's rare to see a clinical case. It's all subclinical that we generally deal with. Right. Opinion on stripping. Not doing it because it's a way of reducing potential contamination of yourself at least. We don't feel it's needed. Don't feel it's needed. Okay. We're not taking, we're not going to treat an animal if we identify her with a bad milk. Right. If maybe a couple times a year we find a hard, hot quarter you're going to find it by putting your hands on the udder rather than looking at it. You'll see it. Right. And do you have any issues in bulk tanks on that Excel account? No, we strive for, we don't always hit the best bonus, but we usually, it's rare to go above 150,000. Okay. We check every left, every low. So yours is about 150,000? Yeah, last, don't check we have all of them. Right. Every test was under 100,000. Right. Okay. So you don't get the formula anymore? We don't strip. We don't strip. I can't say that's what you should do, but. I actually quit stripping before I had two, the last week there's been some cold. If you're going to treat a sick cow and you, I do have some milk and then I supervise fairly carefully the other, the one person does the other half. So we don't have a whole crowd of people coming and going and we're not going to give in, but we're not going to treat a bad. You're not going to treat. We're just going to make sure it gets taken care of good. Right. So there's, I don't know, it's, we've got plenty to do and it seems like that stripping will take half the time of getting a cow ready to milk. So for you, it's mainly a time issue? Not mainly, but it just doesn't, it seems like a waste of time. I'll say it. It seems like a waste of time. I know everybody says to do it, but. Well, and I think that it also depends on, on what you'll be able to or willing to do if you find some, I mean, you know, the main thing from my perspective would probably be, I mean, that what might go into the milk supply that you, that you don't see, right? So chunky milk and so forth. It doesn't seem like you have an issue with it. Right. Right. I've used the different white products. Which are. Used way products? Injectable. Right. Since the early 1980s. And I think they definitely work and have a place. The way products. Recently we've used the garlic pankure. Using a six CC syringe and we put three CCs of garlic pankure or oil in there with three CCs of aloe vera juice. And that goes in the vulva. Right. Works better if you have a cannula or something so you can actually get it in there. Otherwise you kind of have to finish the vulva close until most of it's absorbed. But you can, you can smell the garlic on the cow's breath in about three or four minutes. So I know it's very systemic. Right. You know, it's, it's affecting the cow. Right. I haven't done anything with desk foil. I know a lot. I think it says IMM. Oh, into memory syringe. Right. Yeah. And I've gotten away from putting anything in the corner. I think anytime you do that, more than likely you're pushing something else up. Right. Well, and using vitamins, the vitamin is very effective. Right. Back in the 1980s there was a lot of research done with vitamin E and selenium and doing vitamin E and selenium three times a year. Every trimester has been shown to reduce incidence of mastitis 75%. So that's, that's easily worth doing. Right. Expensive and that will also help cows with, you know, eat. Right. And cycling properly. Right. But we do strip. And I've known some dairy farmers that just put the milk around the cow to make sure that the cow doesn't actually have any dairy on it. But they just put the milk on the cow. And we found with our cows, if you don't strip, you're sacrificing good milk let down. Right. And it just ends up taking longer for the milk if you don't have it let down. Right. So comment about stripping and milk let down and so forth. I mean, I think one thing that's important there, too, is that if you don't have let good milk let down, it takes longer. And then there's also more probability of damaging tea dens and so forth. Because it sits on there and sucks for longer time. And if there's nothing coming out, I mean, you're losing. So that's something to take into consideration. You talked about like a 50-50 mix of garlic, tincture and aloe vera, juice in the vulva. You can also do it in the mouth. Oh, in the mouth. Okay. Right. And you also mentioned you never put anything in the quarter of the cows. And I think that, I think it's a very, very good strategy to have just because there really isn't anything that's approved for use in the other. So you have to be very careful about. Well, one thing we noticed back when we used antibiotics, like right through the 80s, I followed the book. Right. We did dry cow treatments and everybody. And we always had mastitis that never seemed to get any better. Antibiotics never seemed to actually cure it. The mastitis would always come back. Right. 90% of the time it would come back. We've been more successful using homeopathic remedies and the treatments that you see up there than we ever were with antibiotics. Right. So you have better success in preventing mastitis now than you had when you had antibiotics available to you. Definitely. Then with antibiotics, you'd use one product for one or two years and then they'd say that one doesn't work anymore. Right. So now we're using this one to use that in a year or two. Right. They were always changing because the bacteria just become resistant so quickly. I was going to make one. Oh, yeah. So you'll see that in just a second. I'll talk about one product that Carmen has actually developed for intermemory use. And one of the things that they did was that they looked at how long could they detect one of the active ingredients in this phyto-suitical in the cows. And so one thing that I just want to say, I mean, anything that is not anything you use, I mean, it's not just what goes into the quarter, but anything that you inject and put in the in the vulva as well. You mentioned that you can smell the garlic breath on them very shortly after you use it. So it's just one thing to keep in mind, you know, withdrawal times. I mean, how long should I keep it back so you don't have any of those things getting into to potentially meat and milk. And one thing that that scared me a little bit about vegetable oils, if they are being being used to put into quarters would be an example would be peanut oil. For instance, you know, you want to make sure that some of that doesn't get into to the milk supply. I mean, just because of people that have, you know, allergies to peanuts, maybe not a good example, but it's an example of some things that could potentially happen and actually adulterate the milk. I know there's a lot of resistance among our milk inspectors with all of these treatments. Right. Simple because they haven't been approved by the FDA. Right. Right. So when they, we hide them. We don't leave them, you know, in the bathroom in the milk house. Right. But they work more effectively than antibiotics, which have been FDA approved. Right. Ever did. So, so at least the combination of what you use now with changes in management nutrition and other things. You think work much better for you now than when you did it more traditionally. If you were. We have a more consistent somatic cell count now. Okay. We strive to keep it under 200,000. Right. Usually. Well, the only thing I'm going to say from this slide here. So obviously, just because you don't have any data on efficacy doesn't mean that it doesn't work. But, but I think, I think there is room for, for studies to do. There's just very little money available to, to looking into someone. It wasn't a stab at you, Beth. So, but, but the main thing to me is be safe. Right. I mean, both when it comes to, to cow health, but also to the public that, that you're your, your product or you're selling your products to and. Okay. So onto the, the phyton mass. So Dr. Hubert Carmen has his, his own little, I shouldn't say little because I don't know if it is, but it's called bovinity health. And he has a product that can, that has been tested for its efficacy against mastitis and it's, it's an intramemory product. It's a plant based mastitis treatment. And it's actually approved for by the Ohio ecological food and farm association. So one thing that I just mentioned before was that, that when you put something into, to an animal, I mean, you may be able to, to detect it for a while afterwards. So whether it's bad for, for people that either drink the milk or, or eat the meat, but just as an example here, he has gone at least to some length to determine whether some of the active ingredients in, in this phytoceutical hangs around for a while afterwards. Workshop session three. They have, they have. Sorry. There was an announcement on the loud speakers here. They have, they have tested it. And basically what they did was they used it for three days. And then they evaluated for clinical cure after four days. And the ones that weren't cured at the time, I mean, they followed until they were cured. They also looked at somatic cell counts. Right. So time is one of, I didn't put them on here. You can find them in the book. You can just do us a search. I mean, it'll tell you there are three main products in, in that, my style is to, I should have put them on there. I apologize. There seemed to be a faster resolution of clinical, or with clinical cure in the cows that were treated where I got that information. There wasn't actually any information on what they used as a control. I had a feeling that it was just a negative control towards they, they didn't do anything. There wasn't any difference in somatic cell counts, but they also did some work in respect to using it as a dry cow treatment. So the data that's available on this product right now are not the end all be all. And, and it's not just glorious, but, but it's a, it's a good example that, that there are people that are, are working on alternative treatments for intermemory, or intermemory treatments of, of mastitis. So, let me just say two words. Is that okay? About what we are doing here. So we got this grant funded by, by Siri to actually look at non antibiotic alternatives to mastitis treatment. And the main thing that we looked at so far is Manuka honey. How many of you have heard of Manuka honey? Right. So it's from New Zealand produced by honey bees there. Honey has been known for a long time to have antibacterial properties. Most of it is contributed to a peroxide effect. But this honey, even when you take that peroxide effect away, it actually has antibacterial properties. So that was one that we wanted to look at. The next one we'll look at is probably going to be oregano oil because what we proposed initially, we just can't get in good enough quality. Okay. We can start. All right, right. Put this off. I know you're all interested in this. You're going to be a red note. Are you going to be around? Yeah, yeah. So if any questions about the research and I'll let you go, you have to get to other sessions. And just as a reminder, always check up your certifier before you use any products. Right. Very good point. From the person reading your files and writing you letters, please check with us. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.