 Good afternoon everybody. This is Mike Morno from Learning Times. We'll be starting in just a moment. Just letting people settle into the Zoom room. While you're doing that, please note that there is closed captioning enabled for today's webcast. And so you should see it by default along the bottom of your screen. If you do not and wish to make use of the captioning, please click the live transcript button or the CC live transcript button at the bottom of your screen. Depending on your Zoom version, it may appear under the more option and then select show subtitles. If you wish to hide the captioning, just select hide subtitles. I will be your producer for today's session and so if you have any issues or technical concerns with the Zoom platform, please feel free to reach out to me via the chat tool at the bottom of your screen, and I will assist you. You'll see at the bottom of the screen, there's also an option to select Q&A. And so we invite all our participants to please submit questions for our panel via the Q&A. Instead of asking a question via the chat, please, it just helps us keep on top of the questions. And so without further delay, I'll go ahead and pass things off to your host, Robin Bauer, who will go. Please go ahead. Hi everyone. My name is Robin Bauer-Killville and I want to welcome you to our next C2C Care webinar approaching collections that evoke trauma. Before we start, I would like to acknowledge that this webinar is being moderated on the traditional lands of the Mikasuki Inseminable People and their ancestors, and I pay my respect to elders both past and present. Also in today's webinar, we will be covering events that may evoke trauma if we use a listener and for the communities and staff and presenters of the subjects covered. We appreciate the time and effort our presenters have taken in preparing and presenting this material and ask that our audience consider all questions and comments with thoughtfulness and respect to the subjects presented. Well, I want to welcome everyone to this next C2C Care webinar. I'm going to go through a couple of really quick intro slides, and then we're going to hand this over to our presenters because it's a great program and I'm really excited for it. And I think it's going to be a great time. So, and it's a thoughtful time too, which I really appreciate. So, let me start. You're here for approaching collections that evoke trauma as we spoke about. My name is Robin Bauer Kilgoe. You just saw Mike Morneau. He is our senior producer at Learning Times. Again, if you have any questions with tech things, just go ahead and talk to us in the chat. We'll be here the entire time and we're here to help. This is our home on the web, connecting to collections.org. On this website, you will see a lot of different information about our program, including upcoming events, webinars, courses, when we start those up again most likely in the fall. Also, you can get links to our archives of a lot of free webinars we've done since for over 10 years now. You can also get a link to our moderated community and to our curated resources. So I encourage you to go to our website if you've never been there before. Currently we have one upcoming webinar in April open for registration right now it is collections intake in a remote work environment which many of us have had to deal with over the past couple years. This is a free webinar so I would encourage you to go and register for it if you are interested in the subject. We also have some upcoming webinars happening for May and FAIC and AICs annual May Day programming which really feature emergency planning. Those webinars are probably going to be launched for registration, probably in the next couple weeks but we're going to be doing one at the beginning of the month about just basically tools that small and mid-sized institutions can use for emergency planning and one at the end of the month where we're going to talk about sustainability and emergency planning. So we're pretty excited by that so I would encourage you to go to our website to register for those once they are open. We also do announcements on our Facebook and Twitter feed so again if you are interested go follow us or like us over there and you'll get notifications whenever we do new programming there as well. As Mike said you have two ways to communicate with our presenters today. We have our chat box which you guys are already doing a great job at so I don't think everything to describe that. But if you want to say where you're located from or even what the weather is even though I think you know what is a little crazy right now I think a lot of us are warming up. So if you want to say hello you're more than welcome to do that there. Please remember that there are two different drop downs at the top of the chat box there's one that says all audience and one that says hosts and panelists you want to make sure you're talking to the right person. Q&A box is for questions and answers so if you have a question for our presenters at any point during the program please use that Q&A box it's a little easier for us to track them throughout the program so I encourage you to use that as well. So we have three speakers today and we are excited to have them all here. We have Dr. Renee Anderson who's collections manager at the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture. Dr. Bonnie Clark who's a professor at the University of Denver's Anthropology Department and Lydia Fourhorns who is from Kea Consulting they're all going to be speaking on our subject. Without further ado I'm going to go ahead and hand control over to Renee our first speaker and we will see you at the end of the Q&A period. Thanks and we will talk to you all soon. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Welcome to all of you from wherever you are. Thank you for joining us. I will be speaking about the acquisition of the Emmett Till Casket. And the steps that we have taken at the National Museum of African American History and Culture to ensure staff contractors and visitors were well prepared and supported when working with the object and in planning for its exhibition, also while visiting the gallery. The image on this slide includes an interior atrium image from the second floor of the museum from the east side. I have the joy of being a person who gets to focus on special projects with collections, media interactions, council collections support, NMAAHC, Treasures National Community Program, and as a representative for the Mellon Foundation, Smithsonian Institution, Pan Institutional Undergraduate Conservation Internship Program for Underrepresented Groups at NMAAHC. On this slide there is an image of an African American woman with medium dark complexion, brown hair, and brown eyes. I am wearing a lavender colored scarf and it's a frontal view. I would like to remind you to please be mindful when you're joining our webinar today, because there are potentially some speech texts and images related to racial violence and trauma, including recent events. This slide includes an image which is a decorative image of the National Museum of African American History and Cultures Contemplative Court. There's a circular waterfall under blit with persons facing right, taking a picture and two other persons out of focus, but also in this picture. There is a quote on the back wall and it says, we are determined to work and fight until justice runs down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream. Martin Luther King Jr. 1955 collections, please consider jotting down your questions for the end of the webinar. And here are some considerations of the impact of collections. This slide contains a graphic what's in your collection. There's a header text. There's also three sawtooth edged graphic elements with colors that fade to a lighter rendition and overlap. Far left, there's a medium dark blue oval with sensitive and black text. In the middle, there is a sawtooth edged crimson, excuse me, green colored oval with the word sacred in the center. On the far right, there is a crimson colored sawtooth edged graphic with the word special in the center. And so let us say when an object or collection becomes accessioned at the Smithsonian, they become national treasures. Our collections may contain sacred objects, sensitive objects, and special objects. How well do you know your collection and the objects that you are charged with caring for during your time and your tenure at whatever entity you work at. The National Museum of African American History and Culture and going forward, I'm just going to use the letters NMAHC when I refer to my museum. We have a collection management policy that specifies guidelines for the acquisition care and storage of sacred objects, culturally sensitive objects, and objects associated with ritual or religious practice. It also addresses digital assets of sensitive materials. Hopefully you have a collections management plan, which provides guidance for these types of objects. What would you do if you found collections containing sensitive language or imagery and recordings at NMAHC. When we consider sensitive collections, there could be materials such as human remains, funerary objects, objects of cultural patrimony, sacred and or ceremonial objects, and or collection items, objects and archival material is under this category that are associated with hate groups, organizations and movements and or sex of violence depicting stereotypical or racist imagery and containing sensitive language or sensitive imagery and recordings in the museum. We may classify an object that is one of a kind as special. So consider the impact on staff and community, and your community can be local, national or international. I ask you to picture a sensitive object in your collection, jot it down and consider that object in the context of what I will be sharing today. This slide contains all text, understanding the collection is critical to telling an informed moment in history. There are objects which may make you feel as if I was punched in my soul. You may find yourself asking the following critical collection questions. But how did it come into the collection. Why was this collected. Should we have it. Wait, help me understand. What is the background. It may or may not clarify why the object is in the collection. Beware of being judgmental. Can you repeat what was just said. These are all questions that can be asked multiple times by the staff at the museum as this collection grows. So consider the acquisition of the object, which can be just as compelling as the object itself. Give yourself time to sit with your new game knowledge. The stories we tell. What stories are you telling. Can we make this right. Can you do justice to the object and the story. Be honest. There may not be a story you can tell well, your entity your collection or your museum may make these critical choices. Do you need a partner or partners. I cannot give definitive answers for you. I can only ask you to consider the vision, the mission, the purpose and the focus of your cultural entity collection or museum. Any of these can and may have changed over time. NMAHC is a new museum. The founding vision, mission, purpose and focus is relevant. For care and context, I will share some words from director Kevin Young. Let the people see what they did to my boy, commemorating Emmett Till for future generations. July 27 2021, a Mellon Foundation program. Some of the words he shared include understanding the past is a way of understanding now, and also changing the future. What should be considered remember how we remember. And at the museum, we have a reflective space for people. We have context. There is a link in the resources for this program that you can watch in its entirety. I invite you to visit. We should also respect the object. The collection. There are critical collection considerations. I had the opportunity to meet a descendant of Harriet Tubman in 2010. And I want to share something she shared with me. The truth is always enough. So don't rush rushing can be a problem. You can have mistakes or mistakes by rushing to be relevant wrestle until you get it right. There is critical dialogue required. What is the purpose of telling this story. Can you add to the truth of history by sharing this object. The object and the collection enough to do the diligent research required to share the object or collection with respect. When you think of staff, consider all staff. By that I mean, what about your facilities persons who may not be a part of the planning team. However, they may be exposed to that object. They react to the object or collections. How did we ensure staff and contractors and visitors were protected and supported when accessing objects that could evoke trauma. The museum provides safety and respite before, during and after access to objects. The team before access for what will be encountered should be a standard step or process. Consider using database warnings, such as caution handling caution sensitive restricted use. This translates to do not handle or use record information without explicit instruction and permission from curator of collections. Those are standard processes that we employ at the museum. The database contain the background information for the objects or collections, provide time and space for preparation before and recovery after access. Can you offer safe dialogue after access empathy is critical. Do you have an education team. Can you ask your education team for support. I have never had interest in the movie series involving museum vignettes and objects that come to life. That is not for me. I have spent extensive hours working in large storage areas alone. I typically don't listen to music. I'm in there quietly with the object. Consider using signage. This slide has an image with a rectangular sign with black background with red borders and small red square in the center. Warning in all caps with red text above the smaller square. White text is below the smaller square which reads images outlined in red may not be suitable for younger or more sensitive visitors. Signage is used to prepare visitors for difficult images and upcoming gallery spaces. Do you have experience in using these alerts for your exhibitions. Consider the team. And the need to know your team for this process should contain a select community. I recommend a filter for need to know when the team has been formed leave no one behind don't have partial dialogue. When discussions and decisions are made include the entire team. Practice transparency. This practice enforces the need to not leave out team members so select your team wisely. And I consider myself never alone. I'm not here by myself. I can and have called on others for input for this presentation. I have opportunities to see input from the director and senior management curatorial collections, public affairs, education advancement, even project management, our digitization team. Security security and facilities. I recommend you diligently consider the makeup of your team. If you get the story wrong, who will have to answer. Don't blindside management. Consider who can provide support if things do not go well. And I want to talk about the amazing role of educators. They are amazing special team members, they're charged with thinking about the visitor experience and how knowledge and understanding are formed. Consideration includes trauma informed principles, exhibitions events, community interactions and communications. Questions slash considerations that the educators examine when the museum. Has trauma collections that are part of the story. Age appropriateness, how can our young visitors encounter and engage with stories that contain sensitive history or potentially traumatic history is the story appropriate for your younger visitor. What supports might accompanying adults need to support their young children or child. What does it mean before encountering sensitive objects, what notifications or advisories to visit visitors need, or should have before encountering the traumatic object. During the encounter, what is the space like around the traumatic object. Does it allow for reflection, and the visitors potential emotional journey. Will there be a place for visitors to dialogue or reflect in a tangible way. What will happen if a visitor becomes emotional and needs organizational support context, gallery digital or paper resource. What is the historical context around the object in question. What does it reflect the African American experience. Does the context provide visitors with a foundational understanding of the story before and after the traumatic event or object can enough context be given in the space or product to determine how to firmly contextualize the object. Educators develop our answers to these above questions, and or they can provide potential solutions needed for using experiences and knowledge informed by the field of child development research research based information about how people learn and trauma informed when events are planned reach out to your educators, consider their insight. And now I'm going to share with you information and images pertaining to a sensitive collection object at NMAHC, the Emmett Till Cascade. Context, that was August 1955 when 14 year old Emmett Till from Chicago was kidnapped tortured and murdered by white men in Mississippi. Till's mother, Mamie Till Mobley, declined an offer for her son's body to be touched up for the service. She also decided to have an open casket funeral. Nearly 100,000 people visited his glass topped casket during a four day public viewing in Chicago. Images of Till in the casket were published in Jet Magazine and carried around the world by the news media. The brutal murder became a catalyst for the civil rights movement. The slide contains an image. In the description, black and white photographic print of Emmett Till, age 12 to 14 and his mother Mamie Till Mobley. Till sitting on the left wears a white shirt with tie and looks straight ahead. His mother sitting on the right is in a dark dress with a light colored ruffled collar and sleeves of a sheer fabric. His mother has her right arm around his shoulders. They are both smiling. Text description. Emmett Till collection of the Smithsonian National Museum of African American history and culture gift of the Mamie Till Mobley family. This image is shared in the Emmett Till Memorial Gallery at the museum. This is a circa 1953 to 1955 image of Till with his mother. The next image is a bronze colored casket with lid open sitting on pallets against a partial brick wall. Casket is dirty, shows signs of rust and broken and missing external areas. Light colored fabric is stained and detached in areas along the lid exposing padding and support materials. Emmett Till casket collection of the Smithsonian National Museum of African American history and culture in memory of Emmett Till and his mother Mamie Till Mobley. How did this object become available? Additional context. In 2004, the FBI reopened the Emmett Till cask case. As a part of the case, the FBI exhumed Till's body to perform an autopsy. The body was reinterred in a new casket as required by law. The case ended in 2007 with no new convictions. The glass topped coffin was placed in a storage shed on the cemetery grounds of Burr Oak Cemetery in Alsup, Illinois. And during a police search in 2009, it was discovered. The search occurred due to the arrest of cemetery employees accused of digging up more than 300 graves and reselling the plots. Please note Emmett Till's grave site was not disturbed. We understand that there were future plans for the casket, including a till memorial, which never moved forward. Remember when I said I felt as if I had been punched in my soul. Fencing the importance of the casket to American history, Till's relatives decided to deed Emmett Till's casket to the National Museum of African American History and Culture, so that it could be displayed in the inaugural exhibits. This was an excerpt from an August 27 2009 press release. The original glass topped casket that held the battered body of Emmett Till, the 14 year old African American boy brutally murdered in Mississippi in 1955 will be given to the National Museum of African American History and Culture. The donation will be announced prior to a memorial service at the Roberts Temple Church of God in Christ, the site of the 1955 funeral on Friday, August 28, the 54th anniversary of Till's death. This next slide contains an image. The description. Left side of a photo image of Emmett Till in dress shirt pants and leaning against the television. A headline with a white banner with black text in all caps. A nation shocked about action and lynching of Chicago youth copies of the jet magazine on display at the bottom of the case. And in large photo of many till Mowgli in a light colored coat with a brooch is in the far right of the display case on the far right side of the image is the entrance to Emmett Till Memorial. A pale gray brown wall with medium brown text reads Emmett Till Memorial, followed by let the people see what I have seen. I think everybody needs to know what happened to Emmett Till. The casket was installed in the history gallery for the inaugural exhibition defending freedom defining freedom, the era of segregation 1876 to 1968 in August 2016. The special gallery consisting of a set off area titled Emmett Till Memorial was designed to examine the till casket. The security guard is assigned to this space when the museum is open to the public imagery of the Emmett Till Memorial area of the museum is not available. No media shots have been to have been produced, nor allowed. No photography is allowed in the gallery. I can say this object is respectfully displayed the fully restored bronze colored casket with accents and cream colored lining that is heat pressed in geometric geometric pattern. The casket sits behind a rail on a platform covered with a machine sewn and hand him black velvet trade. I invite you to visit the museum to see this object. Sometimes more than a mouth a label and a link is required. All who were approached were eager to be a part of this project. I can ask for special accommodations to help ensure the respect of the object non disclosure agreements were used with all persons attending meetings and participating in the exhibition preparation of the object. The persons and companies working on the object complied with our non disclosure requests. The museum contracted an exclusive shuttle for transport of the casket. Metal work was completed off site. The manufacturer, which created the casket is still in business and agreed to replace the internal fabric in the refurbished casket. The company was able to locate original pattern blocks to be used to replace the internal fabric for the casket. This pattern is no longer used by the company. The company also shut down their workspace for three days while working on the casket to ensure our requested anonymity. For communications pertaining to the object considered the timeline 2009 to 2016. During this time, no additional public communications were conducted nor images made available pertaining to this object. And so I ask you, do you have an object or collection which requires special hand one. Please consider flagging your database and collections files, your storage containers, your cabinetry and shelving gallery entrances and exhibition spaces. Is there a community discussion which needs to occur. How helpful would additional information support your decision to exhibit the object. And finally here is a photograph street level northeast evening image of the National Museum of African American history and culture building. I would like to thank you for your time and attendance. I also would like to thank you for your attention, but please hold your questions until the end of the webinar. Thank you Renee Bonnie feel free to start whenever you're ready. Okay, wonderful thank you so much. I'm still chewing on all the wonderful questions that Renee has posed for us. So, I'm really pleased today to be able to share with you some of the struggles and the successes of the University of Denver, or do you a machi project, which is dedicated to researching interpreting and preserving the tangible remains of a machi which is Colorado's World War two Japanese American incarceration camp. And to do that through a combination of both archaeological research and museology. And so today I'm going to begin with a brief overview of the history behind our work. And then I'll highlight some issues that we confront such as fraught terminology and working across generational and cultural differences, and some successful avenues we've had for engagement, namely co curation, and the incorporation of poetry. And with a little bit of a reflection on how community collaboration has built a broader coalition for the preservation of this site of trauma. Machi is located in the high plains of Southeast Colorado, and it was occupied between 1942 and 1945 over 10,000 people would for at least a time make it their unwilling home. Those confined at a machi were among the 120,000 Americans of Japanese ancestry who were moved from their West Coast homes and held in facilities not knowing when, or if they would be able to leave singled out because of their race, following the arrival of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese military. The Japanese Americans of the US West Coast were among the most prominent of internal exiles in the allied countries during World War two, but they were not by no means the only. Canada also confined their Japanese population during the war, while in Britain refugees and sometimes their children were interned or transplanted transported excuse me to the far reaches of the empire. Particularly invidious form of negative heritage, a personal or generational connection to World War two incarceration has been largely muted, both within families and with society as a whole. As we collectively struggle with the tangible and intangible heritage of the global configuration that was World War two, we need to be confronting the legacy of various forms of internment. The presence of Japanese American former in carceries and discussing this traumatic time in their lives is definitely a coping mechanism. Yeah, the collective consequence is that the largest US population displacement during the 20th century has often been treated as something like a family secret. And the pattern in the UK is similar with few associated with the community of internees they're engaging in memory work around this history. So, and when moving forward out from these affected groups, I think the knowledge of and dialogue around this internment becomes even more muted. So providing a variety of forums for full fighting this collective amnesia through its tangible history has been one of the driving motivations behind the DU Amachi project. The centerpiece of the project is a field school in historical archaeology and museum studies that's held every other summer at the site of Amachi and the Amachi Museum in Grenada, Colorado, which is image that you see here on the slide. In this slide we also have several of our community members survivors and students working together with photographs of the museum. And although the engaged element of this project has involved over time a critical aspect from the beginning has been enabling students to work with members of the key stakeholder groups, especially former Amachi in carceries their families, and the American community. Inspired by the synergy of our in field collaborative process I worked with my colleague Dr Christina Krebs and the staff of the DU Museum of anthropology to create a second life for archaeological items collected during our research. And in particular I want to acknowledge the work of Anna Mati, who serves as the museum coordinator for the project and was my co author for a journal article, from which much of this presentation has been drawn, and to which a link is included in the resources for this webinar. As with the field school the co curated exhibit, connecting the pieces dialogues on the Amachi archaeology collection and the photograph shows that the entrance to that exhibit would spring from pedagogy, but provide a platform for engaging different stakeholders in the history. I was also inspired by a UNESCO project called museums as places for intercultural dialogue, and sort of inspired by the case studies in that work. I wanted what we did to be explicitly multi vocal. Except for the introductory panel, each exhibit portion as this shows one exhibit here would be contributed by named co curators. And it started out as a single intervention, but the success of connecting the pieces has led to actually three exhibit iterations, as well as a traveling and virtual exhibit. So a key issue that we had to confront from the outset was the terminology to be used in the exhibit. And there's many ways to talk about this experience, and almost all of them are fraught. And that's in part because of a history of misinformation that began during the war. So for example, historic proclamations like the one that I'm showing here on the slide, use the term non alien, rather than citizen. The legal removal of these citizens and legal aliens was called evacuation, as if they were being facing a natural rather than a social disaster. And we constantly face the question of what are the people caught up in this process to be called, are they evacuees, are they internees are they prisoners, and the camps themselves, historically they were called relocation centers. And in parlance they are known as internment camps, but that's actually a misuse of a term that has a very specific legal meaning internees are supposed to get a hearing, but most Japanese Americans did not. So technically speaking, these are best considered concentration camps, where a resident population are rounded up by their government because of a particular identity, and then they're held internally without trial. And the Japanese American individuals and organizations use that term. However, for the general public that is term is kind of forever fused with the death camps, especially the Nazi death camps. And I have found that calling them concentration camps tends to shut down dialogue, and can alienate important stakeholders, and in particular the children of Caucasians who worked in the camp, who we've been honored to have be part of our project. So the introductory material, and in student exhibits, we have chosen middle ground terms. In the early years of the project we use the terms internment and internee, unless we were incorporating historic materials like this gentleman here who is an Amaci descendant, who was pointing to where his family lived on this historic map. And at the base of the map, it is the label is called Grenada relocation center, which was the historic name. And this language evolves and spurred by conversations with community members, and also reactionary political narratives. We've shifted primarily to terms that have a little bit more of an edge incarceration camp and incarceraries for the people who were within them. But one of the beauties of having multi vocal forums with identified curatorial authors and exhibits is that we can let different choices around terminology stand. And community curators use the term either internment or concentration camp to describe Amaci we don't change that. In fact, we try to edit community contributions very lightly, instead preferring to work with more with our student labors, if we need to create better coherency. From the outset on the exhibit was resigned designed to bring students and community members together which is what you see here on this slide what's represented here, knowing that they would have different types of expertise and experience. The students were enrolled in a course where they were learning how to analyze and interpret the material history of the United States, while community members were a self selected group who could draw from their personal family or professional history to reflect on these objects. In a brilliant move suggested by graduate students, rather than arbitrarily making the teams we had all the curators, make a list of three items with which they'd be interested in working. And so we provided to them a PowerPoint slide PowerPoint with all these objects and a short description and I'm showing you one image of that which is a small cracker jack toy that was collected from camp. So this allowed the teams to have a shared interest upon which they could build their collaboration. And although in the end some students were sort of more arbitrarily assigned an object because of community member interest, most teams were based on a shared preference. So the team meetings took place several weeks into the term to allow time for students to build some expertise and object analysis. And it also followed class content where we prepared them to deal with this potentially sort of traumatic history by learning more about it, about the research of the field school to talk about exhibit label writing, and what it means to work as a student with members. So the first real engagement with the artifacts actually took place at these team meetings we didn't let the students have access to them first we wanted everybody to have fresh eyes when they came together. And they were encouraged to handle their object looking closely at it which is something that is exhibited in the photograph taken in our archaeology lab of community curator and a student curator together holding a marble. They were also provided with information regarding where and how these objects were recovered from Machi and also our basic analysis of the object. The team meetings were scaffolded with a series of questions that are laid out on this slide. And they started with the object itself. For example, what interests you about this object, why did you choose it. And then it moved out to the greater significance, you know what does this tell us about American history how can it help us share the the history of internment, and then also focused on exhibit planning for example. What is, are there any aspects of this object that you would like to make sure are are highlighted in the exhibit. And what we found is that the engagements were very often quite animated, and they led to some of the more difficult conversations that we would hope they would. Why did this happen. What was its long term impact, what is the legacy for us now, but the object itself provided the grounding and the commitment to tell its story, and that gave the team a shared goal. So introductory panels on framed the labels as the beginning of a conversation, one in which visitors were encouraged to continue through interactives. And for the first exhibit the rear wall was labeled join the conversation and what the slideshow is showing you is what that rear wall on look like as well as a gentleman who is getting prepared to add his sticky note and and pen, pens that were there for people to write on those sticky notes. And some of the questions were what do these objects say to you. What does it mean to be American. And where was your family during World War two. All of these elicited multiple responses from exhibit visitors. However, during the second iteration of the exhibit, we took a different approach. And the dramatic histories involves not just the mind, but the whole person, and especially emotions. And this is particularly true for people who have a personal or family connection to camp like the gentleman who is shown in this. This slide which also shows him looking at a reconstruction of a of a go board. We have discovered a number of go tokens. A traditional Japanese game. So our second time around we hope to better engage the emotions of exhibit visitors in a way that was both safe and productive. And I was quite fortunate to meet poet and former Amachi internee Lawson and nada, and an Amachi pilgrimage and inspired by his poetry written about the camp experience. I invited him to participate in the second iteration of the Amachi exhibit. So, and nada led students and community members in a hike who writing workshop and that's what this slide is exhibiting within the gallery just before the day of the of the exhibit opening. And he named this group the Amachi haiku society, and all of the workshop participants added their contributions to a haiku tree that was at the back of the exhibit. The tree remained in place throughout the exhibit and visitors were encouraged to add high to their own. It was a very popular interaction. And we collected at the end over 50 of these haiku that were written. They were inspired both by specific objects, as well as the bigger things that are addressed in the exhibit. The fact that embodied actors engage with objects and places through multi sensory channels is often cited as one of the reasons why the tangible and thralls us. But in museums, the engagement with objects is often only through one sense vision. Yet the imaginative experience of writing poetry helped participants draw on their own multi sensory experiences to fill in the gaps. And a great example is this haiku which is also on the slide, accompanying a picture of a piece of cut abalone shell that was recovered from the camp. This haiku reads abalone, hard to chew, but tastes like home. Mini haiku also reflected on the embodied experience of Amachi incarceraries in the harsh high desert landscape of the camp. Sand grit in my eyes, my hair, a dust storm of emotion. The connection between those whose used objects and those who encounter them in an exhibit is often one of our primary museological goals. By drawing on embodied imagination, these engagements track back and forth in time across that barrier. And this is probably one of the most dominant themes in the haiku that were written by visitors to the Amachi exhibit. And so I'm just going to share a few examples. One, referring back to the object that was on this prior slide, the iridescent shell shimmering brightly under the lights reflecting back on a culture not forgotten. And this haiku which is on the slide accompanying a picture of a marble that is actually still embedded in the soil at Amachi. This is one of Live's lost ghosts rise from Amachi's dusty remains. Since the closing of the exhibit, I was invited to participate in a panel at the American Anthropological Association about the power of pragmatic imagination from museums. So the concept, which comes from the writings of philosopher Thomas Alexander, provides a framework for seeing imagination as an indispensable component of human understanding. This is an overview of embodied beings in a world of both actuality and potentiality. And I've come to think that the poetic intervention interventions with the Amachi collection are a great example of a productive engagement of both of those things, imagination and action. So this is a concept that you're interested in. I'd encourage you to keep out your eye out for an upcoming edited volume that's that came from this panel at the at the anthropological meetings, and it includes a reflection on the Amachi exhibit and other case studies. And the title is a pragmatic imagination and the museum anthropology, and it should be coming out in the next year or so from Routledge Press. I would encourage you to come away from this presentation thinking that every interaction related to these exhibits was easy or definitively positive. During the third iteration, the interactive had visitors respond to photographs and that's what's being shown on the slide here with the graduate student who put this interactive together and at the top it says what do these images say to you. So, again, with sticky notes, we had students, we had visitors interact with these and under a picture of incarcerates working with a guard tower in the background. One visitor wrote USA is and continues to be a fascist nation, which was signed and American, and then another visitor crossed out fascist and wrote in all caps, free, and still another visitor inserted sad in front of American. Some of the co curator meetings were also difficult, including one between a student and a community curator who was a toddler when her family was confined in Arkansas. The community curator had no personal memories of her time and can't because she was so young, and when asked by the student what she had learned about the experience from her family the partner fell silent. She then shared with a student that her parents like so many who had experienced internment refused to talk about it. So although this was uncomfortable it was a very powerful teaching moment. The student involved reflected on how this exchange made it so clear to her just how difficult this history remains for those whose lives were forever changed by it and what the role of an exhibit like this could play and healing. And despite that awkward moment. This was a positive overall experience for the community curator involved. She came back and participated in all of the other iterations of the exhibit, and each time she involved a different grandchild and sometimes to in her exhibit team. The exhibit process connected curators to people who were different from themselves in both age and often in ethnicity. Together they explored critical topics about a shared past and a collective future. And that was a goal we had for the exhibit from the outset. But another effect was a commitment on the part of this broad series of stakeholders to preserve these objects and the site from which they came. And as with the community arch archaeology project that we do onsite the much exhibits contribute to the kind of broad coalition that you need for historic preservation. For example, an Amachi descendant and community curator responded to a survey about their involvement in the exhibit this way. Quote, now having been involved with this project. I don't feel the need to keep a low profile. And I would like everybody to know about this history unquote. That desire is now a step closer to reality. The Amachi Historic Site Act was just signed as of not quite two weeks ago by President Biden. As a future unit of the National Park Service, the site, these objects came from, and the collections themselves will not only be preserved in perpetuity, they will reach an even larger audience. They will continue to do the work of helping a community heal from trauma. A management goal noted in a community forum by Secretary of the Interior, Deb Haaland who is shown on this slide, along with an Amachi survivor at this just this last February onsite at Amachi. Not every exhibit will contribute to a new National Park Service unit. But done thoughtfully, engagements with objects related to trauma can contribute to a more civil and just society. I'd like to acknowledge all of the community members who entrusted their stories to us, and to the students and staff who spent so much time to make this exhibit a reality. To honor them, I'd like to invite you all to visit the online version of Connecting the Pieces, and also to consider bringing our little traveling exhibit to your museum, which is shown here on the slide. It comes either with or without its objects, but it will pop up panels. And we'll help you to do both of those things are here on screen, and we're included in the resources shared with webinar participants. There you'll also find references to the article about the exhibit, and to the museums as places for intercultural dialogue publication. And I'd like to thank you so much, and I look forward to continuing the conversation in our Q&A. And I appreciate that. Okay, Lydia, whenever you're ready, feel free to share your screen. Hello, my relatives, I greet you with a good hand and with an heart. My name is Good Voice, and I'm speaking to you from the ancestral homelands, a mini-saltem approach, a land of the Dakota Anishinae people. With humility and humbleness, I present this account of the journey of my relative doing halloween bears accomplishments to reclaim this great grandfather, chief halloween bears tradition. I thought of this journey as it is close to my heart and personal strength and heritage as a September La Cota and my early experiences in the museum field. My experiences specifically with working with tribal nations and the Smithsonian's National Museum, American Indian and MAI, left an impression on me and the profound duties and obligations as an Indigenous person to continue work that connects us to our culture, our history, and healthy processes. In collections management, I was able to host, assist, and observe tribal delegations and the saturation visits, which significantly impacted me and the motivation it takes to conduct these visits. Later, through my involvement in tribal planning and development, I also had the opportunity to negotiate a long-term travel loan with NMAI to help facilitate, develop, and build the Cultural Center Museum. Lydia, I hate to interrupt you. It looks like we're only seeing a portion of your screen right now, so could you possibly stop the share and then reshare it for us real quick? Can you see it now? Yeah, that's looking better. Thank you. With my first hand in knowledge of the enormity of the costs and the tedious living negotiations of maneuvering through magpies, I also knew how difficult it was, how difficult repatriation endeavors were, and the emotional undertaking that this could be personally. I could only imagine how challenging and heart-wrenching this could be for family members. Born in 1850 in the Nebraska Territory, Chief Hollowam Bear fought the battle of Little Buccon in the son of Chief Iron Shelf. The chief had died from pneumonia in Washington, D.C. in 1913 during his travels to attend the Woodwell Wilson and Agu Parade and served as a tribal representative during the dedication of the National American Indian Memorial. One time after learning about the repatriation of the shirt, I visited the Queen Hollowam Bear to listen to his thoughts surrounding the circumstances of the shirt. Please listen to the audio exit from our conversation. The shirt of our great grandfather, Hollowam Bear, when I first learned of it, being in Vietnam, it was on that $10 military payment certificate. And then coming home and listening to elders talk about our great grandfather, but a story started to emerge that his trip to Washington, D.C. in 1913, and when he died out there and when his body was returned home, my grandfather raised me, says he wanted to cough and opened up, but the discouragement was there saying, No, we wouldn't recommend it because he's been dead a long time coming back by train from Washington to Chicago to Omaha, back here and by horse-drawn wagon back up to Hollowam Bear Flats out there. And it won't be a good sight, but they insisted. And when the coffin was finally opened, the regalia that he wore was all gone. It was all missing. And he was dressed like a missionary. Now, that had to be traumatic for his children, I can imagine. And the only way that, and you couldn't ask questions, you couldn't, I can feel the trauma of my grandfather when he was told to just let it go. I'm pretty sure that's the language. Leave it alone. Let it go. He's dead. He's gone now. We don't know what happened to it. It's best if it's in the museum, you know, and those kinds of language are probably presented to him. And when you, in my grandfather's time, when you pushed on these things, and he asked too many questions, and they are holding the bread and butter that you need. And when you're asking too many questions and pushing too hard, that bread and butter was withheld from you, and you couldn't feed your families and your children. And so I guess they learned to don't ask questions if you want to eat. So we can imagine a lot of things that they didn't want to talk about. It's sad that there were times when I used to see my grandpa, you know, his mind would be far off somewhere when he'd be sitting there. You can see that far away. Gaze in his eyes. He used to sit there and twiddle his thumbs. I just think he's, he's going back in memory. And probably remembering things, but he was probably afraid for us to say something at school that the missionaries might hear. And they would be probably questioning, where did you hear that? Who's talking to you about this? And it would go back to probably my grandfather. They would follow up on that and him and my grandma and them would get punished materialistically. Even in ceremonially, if they knew you participated in things they, they call that almost excommunication. Communion. They wouldn't allow you to come to their church anymore. Those things that those tactics that they used. And you wanted, you had to go, maybe you didn't want to go, but you had to go. And they would, they see you there. Okay, he's being a good Indian. Go ahead and let him have his food. Through this account, one must understand that this garment represents the empowerment of leadership, resilience, family and the true embodiment of traditional of both the values and still the deep symbolic meaning and particular purpose. And the values and color and the careful understanding of each bead to be attached castles of hair that to be contained from family members. This shirt solidifies the picture of our luck with the past that remains in our present. As Mr. Halleholder has stated, that most of them traumatic to see the absence of his grandfather sure she's holding removed and replaced with the typical colonizer garments, and no explanation of where his belongings have been taken to. These acts inflict the traumatic feelings and emotions of ongoing while disrespecting culture, and they keep this way of life. It is also of interest as to the mystery of how the collective requires a fire the shirt and the amount of money made by the acquisition, none of which was information provided or compensated to the family. It was clear the subject on on just act essentially robbing the family of their inherent rights to retain their father grandfather husband's personal belongings were never immediate resolve and built the foundation of mistrust and feelings of despair. Therefore, it is this as a museum professional and the museum field to keep empathy in mind and profound reflection decolonization practices within the museum field need to continue to make significant strides to educate and exemplify the critical importance of culturally appropriate Although these practices range vastly incorporating indigenous viewpoints on proper handling, storage exhibition in the field that is long overdue to adhere to diversity and successes. Traditional indigenous material and trigger thoughts and feelings of tragedy and loss. The consequences of our historical trauma, which has been detrimental to every generation. Yet even with the passing of so much time, these items resonates with your power and survival to indigenous people. It's only through it, although it's only one account of the distressing, distressing painful history. I understood deeply. When I was told, she followed her shirt pointed away towards healing and forgiveness. The repatriation of the On behalf of well culture and museum stands for ethical and a more act that should be a standard for all professionals and practices in the museum. Thank you for listening to me. That was great and thank you for fixing the screen for us we appreciate it. It happens. Why didn't my mom decide to just stop working with this time. It happens. I do want to note to everyone that I put links in the chat before we start the Q&A with the links to presentations and resource list link for this webinar and also the survey link for c2c care just in case people need to dip out a little earlier. I would also encourage you now to start going ahead and putting any questions you might have for our speakers in the Q&A box. We already have some so I'm going to go ahead and dive right in just so we can kind of start going through them. It looks like this first one kind of goes more towards Renee but I want to hear from the rest of you as well. Could you further discuss the use of trigger warning signage and what is appropriate signage language for preparing visitors and their support. Well I can say we have the great fortune to work with a team of educators that always help with that. And typically what we will do with our warning labels, there is signage that is at the beginning of the gallery right at the entrance. And then we will also use a red outline on the label for the object. We want to prepare them before they come into the gallery. If they have children with them or they determine, you know, the visitors determine that they don't want to go into the space. And there are ways that they can still maneuver through the museum without having to go through that specific area, follow a particular path. And so we do that for photography we also do it for objects. So we lean heavily on the expertise of our educators. And I think that you know most of our museum experience is that a collaborative, right. It's like you never want to just work on your own. No, you never go alone. Right, don't work in your silo ask someone else. So we have, we pretty much have it's almost like standard language, but it is always reviewed by an educator because we have educators decide assigned to every exhibition team. This one I think it's more towards Bonnie it says could you share more about the decision behind the use of middle language where survivors they kind of related just kind of what were the survivors feelings on that decision or kind of how did you guys end up falling into that. It really, I mean, the wonderful thing about doing collaborative work is that, especially doing archaeology is we spend a lot of time together and so the decisions that we made for them for the exhibit were really shaped by long conversations we had in the field. And about these issues and that, although there were a kind of, you know, so for example that the Japanese American Citizens League has has taken a specific stance to call all of these camps to call them the concentration camps and, and yet, when we would have especially our older survivor community members would come and they would say that many of them are not comfortable with that terminology they're also not comfortable being being called prisoners because of the, the sort of the baggage that that carries to and so in talking about this. It really seemed like a sort of middle ground was the compromise position, and especially when we talked about the fact that we really want to be able to work with the people who live with us in their backyard, and they are the site stewards, and, and, and especially people whose parents, or grandparents worked in the camp. And you know, and so, and so we've tried to create a space that's welcoming for them. And so, but, but again, I understand that compromise, and that's the thing about compromise right everybody has to give a little. And so we talk about this as a compromise position. And, and then, and, and just as Renee said, you know we don't make these decisions on our own. So all of these, you know, our museum labels or when I do publications. We, we vet this with our community members who have been partners with us to make sure that that we've come with just to something that we can all be comfortable with. Thank you. Someone asked are there better practices published by formal bodies that outline how institutions should best catalog and exhibit collections of conscientious cultural histories. Are there standardized ways common challenges are dealt with in collections management policies. What has been all of your experiences with that without our experience with forming our collections management policy. We reviewed it, you know, what is standard within the Smithsonian. And then we started talking to our colleagues. We went to NMAI and had dialogues with how do you, what is your language that you're using for your care use and handling of sensitive objects of sacred objects. We had a number of conversations with others at the Smithsonian to, you know, what, what are you doing, what's working for you, does that language work for you, well we adopt the same language, do we need to change it do we need to tweak it. We didn't sit in a room by ourselves and come up with our collections management policy, we also took into consideration, what are the standard practices, but also what's the impact on our communities what do we have to be extra sensitive to. And so it was a collaborative effort, you know we may say it's our collections management policy but it was in dialogue with other other units. What is your experience or there's some resources that you tend to go to towards these types of things. Um, actually, my experience is stem from when NMAI was first developing traditional care policy back years ago. It was, it was a new concept because there are very, there are very different and unique needs that that need to occur based on tribal groups. So, when you have an institution such as large as NMAI with the, with a variety of regions represented. It's important that everybody's voice is heard. But there's also, you know, one of the situations that I had come into where it as as through the respective elders it wasn't anything that needed to be written down. So, it was something that was verbally, verbally informed though, and that had to be part of our policy to, to enforce that, you know, this is what was said and this is, you know, you were you confirmed. And that's why I've mentioned, you know, it's important that the communication of these practices are done in a in a culturally appropriate way for all parties. Thank you. Bonnie, do you have any sources that you guys you ended up using outside of ones we've already mentioned. Well, someone has already put that in the words matter resource from the JCL. And so we definitely have looked at that and had conversations with people about that. We have a kind of almost, and we, we in fact, at the museum down in Grenada, which is associated with the site, we help them produce an exhibit that talked about the different terminology and kind of unpacked it for people to sort of open that up. And sort of, and looking at, especially to sort of think about what these issues are that they have, especially legal terminology is to look at some of that. And in regards to generally speaking, dealing with a kind of these sorts of collections that that resource that I gave people in terms of museums as places for intercultural dialogue to think about how do we lay the groundwork to bring people a difference to talk and to have a kind of civic engagement. And I will say the some of the resources that the National Park Service has put together for for civic engagement, and especially using archaeological collections were powerful resources for us. I also, you know, draw from some of the ideas about the way that about about community curation and how and how to go from the sort of appropriate museology that's being that's happening at the at the level of, you know, when people hold these things in their houses, what do they call them, and how do they manage with them and how do they interact with them that that we can then use that as a kind of guide. Thank you. We have some, I don't want to call them nuts and bolts questions but like practical collections from people, a few people have asked Renee, why did the museum choose to refurbish the casket rather than letting its condition remain part of the story. Well, when we considered the acquisition of the casket. It's, it's not anything we look for. It's not anything we ever even contemplated that, you know, when you have a list of objects you'd like to collect. There was never on the list, but then because of what it happened. And then we had much dialogue and consideration in terms of what were we planning what could we do. And we said that the acquisition of objects sometimes the story of how and why it becomes available is also important that when that new story hit the reaction. Pretty much just across the United States was wait, they've disrespected families in what type of way. And then it came out that it was the same cemetery where Emmett Till was buried. And for that moment those four days when over 100,000 people viewed his body. That was pivotal, and that those photos were published. And so that's, that's what that's what we looked at. That's where we went with that. And how many new generations have come into existence since that event, and how many generations were as close to the story. The actuality of what happened. What did that look like so how did we help to fully tell the story in a respectful way. And that informed our decisions and you know it was like, wait, what, okay, meetings, you know, many, many meetings, and how are we going to how are we going to do this and taking the time to really decide how best to move forward. For Bonnie kind of that same line it said how did the museum respond to the uncomfortable response written on the interactive wall. Was anything censored removed and what kind of best practices were set ahead of time for that kind of possibility I mean audience interaction something we always crave for but when it's negative, how have you had to handle it by your institution. Well, and I will say, you know, at the, this was a university gallery. And so we have a pretty strong feeling about the fact that, you know, that we are that we're going to have conversations that make people uncomfortable. And, and so we let it be up there as a record of what had happened, you know, I think, if we had been if someone had been in the exhibit and and had actually seen someone to face someone else we would have stopped them from doing that, but it had happened without us being there. And so we left it up as a sort of reflection of the fact that that this is a fraught history in terms of how we interpreted and how we engage with it. And so, you know, I, but we also collect all of those so you know we we took pictures of them as they evolved. So we had a record of them, just like we kept all of the haiku. And so, you know, and I think that especially. And I will say that the timing of these is important too. So that interaction happened in 2017, and at a time when there was a lot of uncivil discourse going on, and so I think looking back maybe we would have put a little note to say, you know, please be respectful of other people's interactions. But, but, but I but I found the fact that they were in this place to be able to have this dialogue also in a way that I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't personally confrontational and I and my students talked about it being thought provoking for them so I mean, I'm glad it happened. But, you know, each time we do this it has it has been a little bit of an experiment and that's again being in a university setting. I mean there's been some publications about how we we kind of get it can get away with a little bit more. And, and so it's probably a place to sort of experiment with with what works and what doesn't. We've had a couple people ask questions about, I guess the mental health of the collection staff and how if any of your institutions provide resources or anything to the staff as they work on objects like that, like, you guys have described do you guys have any references or stories to talk about that side of the house at all. I can share that it had to do with another object, and it was a slave air object that had contractors coming in. And so, I always like to be clear with them and ask some questions and make sure that they understand before they even come in to a conversation with the objects, offer them opportunities to take breaks and would you like to go have a dialogue do you need you know and just being empathetic and being aware of there can be problems. And sometimes you know you can start the day and it's it's not going to be an issue but as the day goes on maybe it becomes more wearing. And at the Smithsonian we have a couple of departments and options that are available to staff that if they need help that's available. We're, we are mindful. We also would do something where we would ask, is there anything in the collection that you know like that bothers you we had someone that said, you know what I have a problem with that dolls. You know, open the door and the dolls are laying there those eyes are looking like I can't handle that and someone else said well that doesn't bother me. I don't like this, you know, and so they said, they agreed that with handling of objects that they would trade off. I had never thought of the doll didn't bother me, but I just had never thought so you know, giving people the space to say what makes them uncomfortable has been helpful in us nurturing the staff, but also being mindful of who's coming. You know, if, if they're coming in the check your age back system. Everybody in that room already knows what's on the table, but the facilities people are not they don't know what they're going to walk into. So greeting them at the door sharing some information and just, you know, getting a, you know, touching touching base with them to see are you okay with this and this is what it is that we're doing the same thing with. When the cleaning crew would come in, we're as responsible for them as we are for the collections staff also. I see you shaking your head. Do you have experience. Oh yeah, the maintenance staff, then environmental staff, they all had to be informed and like I said, you know, it's it depends on you know what you're working with because there was, it was under direction that some of these some of these protocols and some of these practices were done and communicated verbally. So they weren't things that were written down but you have to fix that one and one communication that you know that you're instilling trust in that other person coming into that space that we believe that they're going to respect that area and the items that are in that space. Sometimes it's, it's difficult because you get people that don't have that viewpoint. Have you had any experiences with that at all or I just, and I will say it is something that I talked to people about the fact that my students and our our collaborators that nobody wants to get up and talk about this every single day. And so that there are days that sometimes you just have to put the suitcase down, and that if it's just not a good day for you to be dealing with this then it's not a good day. And if you need to be outside, if you need to just, you know, go for a run or whatever if it's just that I want everyone to feel okay to step away. And also that, and the same thing to understand that when they're talking to someone if it like if it's my students and we're going to do an oral history. Again, we talk about all the issues that are around this and, and, and the fact that as part of the oral history training that that that if people you know we're always checking in, are you still okay to have this conversation do we need to stop. Is this an okay line of questioning, you know that that sort of sensitivity about that that that doesn't happen just in that sort of formal setting of the oral history but just in a kind of conversation. And, and so that is, you know, just empowering that and making making the spaces for that for everyone who's involved. And, and I think that's been and people do take take advantage, sometimes that they need to, again, to just kind of to walk away. And maybe giving them also space and time to prepare. Yeah, absolutely. That's I don't, you know, no one comes into this setting without having had a lot of time, you know, um, you know, even with so like each of those students. I work personally with them to kind of prep them for what they were going to be encountering and, and to make sure that that then especially because it's part of a class. And if the students, you know, essentially I gave them the outline of the project and I said if this is not something that you're comfortable with this is not like you, this is not a good class for you to be in or we will find another project for you to do. Um, again, we didn't want to, to strong harm them and strong arm them and then when I'm in the, like everyone who's involved in the amachi project before we go in the field, because that's when we first encounter all of these objects. And this place that is that can be very difficult is that I is that everyone is inner, like we have a face to face interview about what their, that what their expectation, the expectation should be, as well as then of course they're reading a lot of material ahead of time. And unless I feel that people have like are personally prepared for it, and also have the cultural competency, then I, I, I, you know, respectfully they get to do something else. They don't have to be there. And I keep thinking about about how, even in the 1516 years I've been in the field how you've really seen the shift of people not only the preparation just respecting of if people need a break you give them a break I feel like the way I was raised it was like no you just got to keep pushing forward you know what I mean like just keep going and it's like no so might you have a step back and like realize you need that moment to just kind of understand what you're working with and obviously always be respectful with what you're working with. But I feel like it's just it's handled more consciously nowadays which I think is kind of a beautiful thing that people are really considering it and thinking about it before they walk into these situations, you know and I do see that as a positive swing in the past few years. I would, I would love to just to agree with you, but I, I've been shocked to see just a blatant disregard and to think that, you know, years ago, when any may I was just starting traditional care committees and having these discussions. And before they, they even moved to, to suit them that those disregard is still happening. Yeah, and when we're talking about, you know, the cultural competency, you know, I'm very, very forward, especially when bringing on new staff to let them know that this is you know one of the first in our line of questioning that this is, you're going to be around sensitive objects and this is you know what is your experience with this because it's, it's so important. It's so important to native people, because a lot of these items are aren't even within reach, I mean that was what this whole story that I brought forward. It's expensive, it's expensive to go to Germany and it's expensive to go, you know, wherever all these places that our items have ended up. So to have that to come back to and then to have people in our profession just disregard those those protocols and on, you know, those practices it's, it's still, it's crazy. Well, I'm, I'm sure it's still systemic. Like I need to say that but I like to hope that I see glimmers everyone so well and especially the people who are going through programs now compared to where I had it was all on the job training and me kind of coming to organizations, while working in the field going like this is messed up, I you know what I mean like we really have to step back and look at what we're dealing with, you know what I mean, especially because I started in a world of archaeology material culture, which was respectful but still it was just kind of end result. And now it's, I see, I see differences popping up here and there but you are completely right it is not perfect. That is for sure. Definitely. Yeah, well it's 230 there's still questions floating around in the q amp a, but I don't want to hold everyone up unless you guys have a few minutes to answer a few more but again if I want to be respectful of the time of our audience and our presenters as well. So would you guys like to answer maybe one more question or do we need to wrap up for the day and I can definitely forward the questions to you all take a look at afterwards. It's up to you guys. I'm available for one more. Okay. Okay, well one of them I think would be really interesting, which you guys might have advice from is do you have any advice on how to get senior leadership to understand the importance, I know, of addressing these types of collections. And just kind of what has your been your experience with that have you found support for it has it been something you've had the fight for or is it something that you know was kind of accepted as you walk into these collections and as you approach them. And my museum there was no, there was no, there was absolutely no problem, right, whatsoever at my but you know. And, you know, we had our founding directors, Lonnie G bunch, the third and our current director, Kevin young. So get it. So, you know, are available are in and are aware, and also are supportive of us being able to have dialogues and to help others understand because we realize not everybody gets it. We realize, as Lydia said, you know, the standard practice or the standard way of doing, let's just get this job done we've got a deadline. Oh, wait, wait, wait, we did anybody ask this question do we have the response to this question was this question that is not believe that we have all knowledge, because we've been doing this a long time. I can just and and I don't know if everyone can do this but certainly the way that I pitched this to sort of the people higher up who had to approve it was to really remind them about how working with these collections and working with them in a way that I felt like was appropriate in that sort of slow way and also the way that that you were not the only ones involved is that I really I pointed right back to the university's mission of education of community good and said these this fulfills both of these things but to do so, you know is going to take some resources and some time. And to get that support. And I think that that probably, again, if these, if you are if you have these items in your collection, obviously somebody thought it was part of your mission, right, they're there. So how can then they be. How can you work with them in such a way that you are enhancing the mission or again expanding your audience, or, or what you know about the things that you already have. As much as you can attempt to ground it and that way again, sometimes that's going to be obvious but I think for others I think to sort of look at and look at that and make those make those connections for people who might not see them. You know, for us it may be super obvious and for others, maybe not so much. Lydia do you have any thoughts on just have a Well, I think that from my standpoint, you know, there's a lot of a lot more tribal representation in the field. And with most tribes starting to build their own facilities of helping them to understand, you know that these. These are things that, you know that we need that need to be implemented and however way is the most appropriate, because like I said, you know some it in it was in my situation where it wasn't something that was written down. So we need to understand that, you know, through the, the wonderful maneuvering with HR. These policies need to be, they need to be followed and you know that this is kind of how this policy is going to be implemented and you know signed agreements and put on, you know every form that you have to fill out when you're, you know upon your entry into the into the into the whole. I really didn't have. I didn't have much of a problem with that at all. But that is coming from a tribal perspective. So, but other, other than that I, I've never had any issues. You could just a good thing. You could also share with senior management. I'm just wondering if we don't get this right. How will this play out. I mean, I think that's always, I always feel like one of my goals in life is just to make sure that someone 20 years down the road is not going to be like what were they thinking with any project that I was involved in like I always think that it's like a kind of a life goal. I just don't want that to be out there so you know I can totally appreciate that aspect for sure. Well, I want to go ahead and close out today's webinar. I want to say a huge thank you to all of you this was like these are tough subjects but to me it's really important that especially our audience is small and midsize groups know that they're not alone. And I know them know that they have objects like this within their collection and they might feel just, they don't know what to do with them or they don't want to make anyone angry and they, you know, they're going to say they're scared but it's just something that you know to know that there's other people out there that maybe they can reach out to and talk to about these things, and be aware of what's happening within the field, I think is incredibly important. So thank you all for participating today. And I also want to say a quick thank you to I'm a less for supporting this program if a IC and a IC, and to our producers at learning time, there are a ton of thank yous happening in the chat right now. So thank you to all of you. I'm also going to download the what's left of the Q&A and get it to our speakers, so they can take a look at it and we'll hopefully be posting this webinar to the YouTube channel probably within the next few days. Thank you everyone and I hope you have a good week and we hope you all will see you all in April. So thanks and talk to you all soon. Thank you. Thank you.