 Okay. Well, thank you everyone. I think we'll go ahead and get started. Appreciate all the participation here. We have an hour booked for this discussion. We've got a lot of folks I'm looking at that we've smiling faces here that have worked with in different contexts, different perspectives in the industry. Some really cool projects as well. So looking forward to this discussion. We're going to keep it pretty free flowing and just kind of roll with topics. We obviously wanted to focus on, you know, Firefly a bit and multi-party systems and why we think this could be really interesting and get your guys's input on that. And Sophia is going to join back in a second as well and she's participating. I'm going to be the moderator on this session. I think before we jump in, if we could just give everyone like a 20-second intro just to introduce yourself and I'll do the roll call starting with you, Tony. All right. We're one for one on the new button so far. It is a little hard. It is a little hard to find on the hop and platform. We'll go to John and come back to Tony in a sec. Great. John, I'm the CTO of Greenfence and that Greenfence has two sort of business verticals, if you will. One is consumer side, which is coupons rebates and collectibles in conjunction with retailers and the supply chain side, which is center around food safety. We've been a user of collateral technology for, gosh, a couple of years now. I think it's a couple of years at least. Maybe you guys can tell me better. And yeah, super enthusiastic too. I'm super excited to discuss the impact of the release of the suite of tools. Yeah. And so John wears those dual hats of more of the B2B side of things as well as the digital assets tokens platform. So really broad perspective. Tony, you ready to go? You're still on mute, Tony. Okay. We'll give you another minute. Gary. Yeah, so, yeah, I worked with a few of you characters in various capacities over the years. Currently, I actually currently work for Google, not related to blockchain, but, you know, where Google allows you to work on the open source stuff, especially if it's Apache licensed. So yeah, I was a been a maintainer and contributor for Hyperledger Fabric on Hyperledger TSC, ran blockchain at IBM for a bit. And yeah, excited about Firefly was one of the sponsors as you guys know for bringing it into Hyperledger. So glad to be here. Great. Peter. Thank you Steve. So I'm the head of engineering at Collido. And at Collido we've been focused on making all of this blockchain tech consumable for enterprise throughout our journey. Me personally as an engineer, I've lived pretty much all of the trains of multi-party system integration that came before blockchain messaging integration. I cut my teeth back on IBM MQ or NQ series back in the day. So I've seen that seeing things happen multiple times in this space. And I'm really excited that the nascent potential of blockchain to really accelerate what ecosystem building can be is really, really, really possible now. And really hoping that Firefly can be the project that brings us together to bring it to a much wider audience. Like 100x the projects happening every year is the hope that we can do with this. Guillaume. So I'm Guillaume. I'm the founder at Atato. So we are a team based in Southeast Asia. Users of Kadeido, like John. And we are basically building blockchain platforms for banks and financial institutions in the region. And I'm super excited to join this very impressive panel. All right. Thanks Guillaume. Brian. I'm Brian Belendorf. I'm executive director of Hyperledger. And just really excited to see the project come in and want to support this and the growing community in any way that I can. Thank you, Sophia. Thanks Steve. Yeah, this is actually one of the founders, co-founders of Klaido. And this panel is great. I'm just looking all the faces. Gary, we had the privilege to work together. And that was, it's really great to see you again. I know Guillaume and John have been, we've been working with you guys for almost, I think, three years now. You actually interacted quite a bit with some of our open source components of eConnect that are now part of Firefly. John, you know, your team launched NFTs three years ago when no one knew what NFTs were. But you were working with all the biggest T-Mobile, Kroger, Sony Fox, Heineken and others. And then Tony, Tony leads a team that's one of the most sophisticated approaches we've seen in the industry for working through use cases, bringing clients together into building the consortiums and the product management discipline and professionalism there. Just mapping that now to building decentralized ecosystems. I think there's a lot of insight there. And of course, Brian, it feels like coming home, coming back to Hyperledger since, you know, we were there at the start when Hyperledger was first formed and we came on board and always loved your vision and loved to see and how it's grown and developed over the years. So, welcome everyone. I'm happy to be here on the panel with you guys. Tony, over to you. I don't see a new button anymore. Yeah, I'm hopeful. I had to play with my settings on my Chrome browser and now actually it's piping audio. Yes, this is great. I'm so excited to be on the panel. Tony Sazzo, head of product operations. You know, my role is helping 30 of the largest insurance companies in the U.S. to develop shared applications in the insurance and risk management space. So really excited to be here to speak to y'all. Cool. Well, let's jump in right there, Tony. You know, you're talking about shared applications. Maybe you could start with a couple of thoughts on just what's different about these decentralized applications that, you know, the other stuff that we've been doing and we continue to do. What makes these particularly difficult? Sure. So, I guess, for me, it's kind of a, or for risk stream, I guess it's a double lambing, because not only are our applications decentralized, our design process is decentralized as well. So in order to design an application, we bring together and we create a working group with five, 10, 15 different companies, all with different motives and different challenges that they're trying to accomplish as part of a shared business process. So, you know, what makes this kind of different is that instead of, you know, an AIG, or instead of a USA, or instead of a company trying to put together a core system or something that a technology product that they're trying to put in place to solve one problem just for themselves, they need to be able to solve that problem collaboratively with everybody else. And everybody on the network needs to get some sort of value out of that, you know, achieving that problem. You can't kind of disenfranchise or make the value less for a particular participant, because everybody kind of needs to kind of work together to accomplish the same goal. Yeah, so you've got, we sort of split it, the problem in half, you've got the business side of the problem, and then the technical side. Gary, jumping into the technical side of, you know, these decentralized applications, what's your perspective on what's really challenging and hard about them? Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things with, on the business side, right, which was, you know, we used to have a long time ago, like internal processes, right, and there was like architectures, like, you know, message brokers, message buses, service-oriented architecture, right, how do we make everything loosely coupled, et cetera, sort of inside the enterprise, maybe even at, you know, processes on top of that. And, you know, and then there was some ability to move data in and out, you know, EDI, Vans, you know, sort of B2B stuff, right. But as the world's kind of gone on now, right, we actually now need to take those workflow and data systems, and they're now not just part of your company, but they have to involve all of those parties, right. And I think for a while, there really weren't good ways of making sure that we could have, you know, the right sort, the right consensus protocols, for example, right, for sharing right across this data, right. And especially when you trust but don't trust, right, you know, trust but verify, you know, if you will, sort of mechanism, right. So I think that's been, you know, some of the important factors there. And then those protocols have come around, they're really kind of in the blockchain layer, right, there's several frameworks out there, you mentioned earlier, you know, for doing that. And then I think the next difficulty on top of that is, well, okay, now I've got this sort of layer that handles the transaction, some of the business logic and rules and execution. But how do I actually like build applications that orchestrate that stuff, right, because everybody again is still used to just building like my app that I share, right, we've moved to a world where I have a web app and everybody uses that web app, right. But this is sort of different right it's like I need to have my version of it or your stuff right it's more that interaction like workflow type type applications right so we got as far as the plumbing layer, I think, but then the next layer up to really make this take off to match all the stuff that you know sort of Tony was talking about is to have this kind of orchestration layer that spans enterprises and can leverage blockchain technology. So that that that had been the gap I think up until, you know, now, hopefully. If that's the logical passive via what what are tell us some of the horror stories. What what's that look like in practice. Well, I mean, I guess we touch upon this in the over the opening keynote, but in the past years. If you go back to 2015 2016 the first real enterprise projects were starting people thought you know they're building blockchain and it's writing smart contracts putting everything on the chain. And when they start actually building the projects out they realize you know five to 10% of what they're doing is really running the nodes and it's always off chain components. So that decentralized off chain tech that that was new and emerging that they needed to learn and get to use and often a lot of commodity tech like some of the stuff Gary was talking about just building a whole solution around it so it ended up taking a lot a lot more time you know they thought it'd be couple you know number of months and end up being a number of years maybe they never even got into production spent 10s and millions of dollars a lot of custom consulting because there was no real open source project that tackled those sorts of plumbing layers for them so each time was being rebuilt. So I think one of the things we were excited from the early days is how can we really accelerate the adoption of this tech, you know, make sort of the plumbing easy parts people could focus on business application logic business value doing the hard work like Tony is doing around bringing stakeholders all just together in the insurance industry John is doing that in the entertainment and retail and supply chain spaces. So, you know, I think that's where the industry has been there are clients who shipped into this new approach. So we wanted to open this up and have everyone in the industry be able to join the community contribute the benefit as well. Brian, from your perspective, you know, how has how have you seen hyper ledger projects, helping with some of those problems and where, where do you think are sort of do you come up against the wall. And, you know, is there an opportunity for another generation or another way of projects to come and help maybe in some of those areas. Oh, sure. I mean, you often see conversation on the different mailing lists and in in chat and that sort of thing where people are asking questions that aren't really specifically like, like, I think I found a bug or I think there's a question about specific feature but really questions about how to do design for distributed applications and this realization that everyone seems to independently make once they get in, but really should be more front center, which is that block chains are not a big data tool. Everyone is so wired around big data and machine learning models and you know that they're like, this must just be like a gigantic enterprise service bus right and I just want to throw everything into it. But really it's more of a small batch artisanal data tool right and that you really want to use it as sparingly as possible but still, you know, encode some some important logic and in the smart contracts when when when that's appropriate. And that leads to to something that's both like a technical design kind of thing and that's where people need help understanding it but also somewhat of a social design to and it reminds me even of like 22 years ago. Hewlett Packard released this like R&D project out as an open source thing to try to get folks interested in called eSpeak, which is like pre web services, even right. They were like, you know, this is how you wire up the ERP systems of the world into, you know, one big automated flow and their examples, you know, were just like the worst. There were things like, well, let's imagine you're the shoe industry, and this is how you would use the software if you were the shoe industry. Well, no one person is the shoe industry, right. Everyone has their roles to play. And so figuring out how to do design of even these these individual blockchain networks that you build is necessarily a collaborative process. It necessarily means talking with people outside your organization. That's the kind of thing that open source projects when they're done right know how to do. And so there's a lot of resonance here between those two. And I think the more that we can try to help people understand how to how to do those kinds of collaborative, you know, communication and design processes, the better off even the individual blockchain projects built using these tools will be. How about you? How have you seen sort of customers and some of these larger projects overcoming some of the unforeseen technology obstacles that that present themselves when they're trying to do something decentralized for the first time. Yeah, I guess for me, from what I've seen the things that matter most are the poor developers or specialists. What you've got is usually there's some kind of network operator. Maybe it's the, you know, the best people who know blockchain phone into a mix from a whole bunch of companies. Maybe it's a separate business entity that's been created. And they're kind of the only people in the whole organization or the whole of the network that kind of understand blockchain of its core. And then what you've actually got a whole bunch of business people trying to use the next generation of the way that they're they're going to solve a really hard problem that's taking them weeks and they want it to take minutes. You've got web developers trying to build great user experience to show how these business people can do something better because of blockchain and trying really hard but not to look like they're really ugly slow multiple second for transaction mess that they've seen elsewhere in the blockchain space and have something that's great feels good responsive. And then and then you've got and I guess I care a lot about these these guys because I've worked with them so long. You've got the enterprise integration people inside of the organizations that look after the core data systems and the on mounts and your fans and the data and no one ever gets past. No one can ever get to shadow production or even definitely not past shadow production without integrating those core systems. And so you've got like, you know, networks with 10 2030 large organizations as 10 2030 integration teams that need to know how to connect in. So it really matters how easy it is for none blockchain tech people to be able to get data and be able to get data out. And it really matters that the system behaves normally doesn't behave in some crazy strange way. And and and we've been on a journey like with the technology that we've been building trying to help with interconnects and other bits to try and just make blockchain feel like a technology that makes sense to you know, mortal engineers like me who just come from a world where stuff what makes sense is well established. I'm when I'm thinking about someone who's dealt with large organizations that may or may not care that blockchains actually part of the solution. And I see you on the screen that certainly, you know, some ideas come to mind there. I mean, how have you how have you dealt with, you know, some of these these larger initiatives and projects over the years, and maintaining that balance and customer interest but but trying to maintain the velocity of what you what you're doing. Yeah, it's a great question. I think speaking a bit to what Peter was just saying I think one of the areas in which we can do better is to do a little bit better in terms of education and helping in the sort of cultural discussions that surround blockchain technology right. There's these natural tensions that exist. When we're trying to build a consortium, for example, if you're trying to find four or five or six or 10 organizations that would naturally want to collaborate together on a source of shared truth. And generally you would, you would, you'd find you'd find that organizations that generally we're attracted to collaborating in general would be the best candidates but those aren't necessarily the best candidates to operate a shared of source truth a shared source of truth right you know you actually want competitors. To be in to be in that space because they are the narrative that you can tell around that to the rest of the world is that these people wouldn't aren't naturally inclined to call it. So you've got that challenge right this natural tension between best people would be collaborators best to actually share data the best people to actually operate a shared data system or not collaborators at all. So we have to tell that story I think a little bit better certain something that we struggle with the next is besides the sort of technical practitioners that are right in the space as you were saying here. Nobody else really understands the technology, not really. I mean, I go from day to day or week to week with somebody coming in trying to fix me a better blockchain based solution. And the way that they position themselves against the solutions that we're already using this almost always demonstrates that they don't really understand the state of the art in the space at all. Right. And you almost want to sit him down and say okay so let's talk about blockchain technology right versus a mom and a dad and they love each other and they get together and it's just really super simple version B stuff that you have to sort of do right. And then of course, everybody's in production right there are legacy systems, and nobody really wants you to disrupt a legacy system in order to demonstrate that you're going to add value to their operations. Unless of course you're going to replace everything because everybody hates their legacy system right so they'd love for somebody to come in and say you know actually tomorrow when you come in it's all going to be different it's all going to work better. That's sort of naturally in a sort of balance of the challenge there is that I think the most successful way to actually introduce this technology is to choose one thing, right one pain point. Roll in solve that problem, not change everything not not replace everything in the system but identify one specific pain point and work on that. And then you can sort of you know, slide the rest of the stuff in as and when people actually acknowledge that you're adding value, and that it makes sense for more and more of their production to move into the system where you know the ecosystem that you created. What's exciting to me about Firefly. I'm going to jump into that really briefly is that, you know, I've been, I started out as a minor in the ecosystem I've been an Ethereum fan forever and I see what's happened in decentralized finance there. Specifically with the composability of you know smart contract development across that ecosystem and so as these pieces become available. People do crazy. You know, one imaginable stuff with it right if you were talking about smart contracts in 2017, we were looking for an example, everybody would say escrow right and escrow contract. Today, what you can do with maker and alchemy and curve and you can you can layer seven things together to achieve you know crazy returns on tokenized value that nobody could have imagined or even described three years ago and I so I think that, you know, as me as a technical person, I'm sorry if I'm talking too much, you know, the first thing I do when I try and solve a problem is I say what's out there like what what do I not have to build because it already exists. Right. And I and I immediately go to the open source community is what I've done since the late 80s right well, I'm sure there are smarter people than me that have already either face these problems and come up with specific approaches so the availability of something like this even three years ago would have been like oh this is great I don't have to solve any of these issues any of these technical issues I can work on the things that are harder. Like education, like convincing people that you know this actually makes sense for a specific, you know, pain point inside the organization, and now I'm going to be quiet. Thanks. Deal. What's your perspective on some of the topics that that we've done here. You know, maybe the mix or how big is the integration to the back office system. How big of a piece is that in the puzzle and what's your sense for the mix of effort that you apply to a project, sort of from the business use case down through the plumbing. Yeah, so yeah happy to share and you know we're working typically with banks or other financial institutions or like John is saying they're in production they have systems they're already running so I guess a big part of the challenge then is in on the integration with those systems. And, you know, when I when we look on that side of the state of blockchain today, you know, we have a carry on like, like we were discussing you know it's an amazing tool it's an amazing machine. But really at its core Ethereum is just like a secure share CPU. And that's it. And you have no IO you have no OS you have no networking you have nothing else. And so when you think about it you know tools like Firefly and the infrastructure that Caledon is building. We see it kind of like an operating system. You know, we're still in the early stages so maybe it's the dose of you know those new types of computers that we call blockchain right. And so with those you can do IO you can do you know some management features you can do some kind of utility function that you must build when then you want to develop applications on top of it. And so you know nobody today would go and say I'm going to build a new application let's start by writing an operating system doesn't make any sense. And so we blockchain three years ago we had to write our own operating systems to do things like IO and you know basic functions of using this short computer. And I think that now that we have companies like Caledon that are building those operating systems, we can really go much faster. You know, companies do not have to reinvent the wheel like they're saying and we can turn to open source tools like Firefly. And so, you know, I think it's so complex that it's natural that it's taken a few years for the community to realize what shape a blockchain operating system has you know and what functions we want from it. But to me Firefly it's kind of that step along the way you know we start to have a better vision of what it takes to do IO on blockchain and what's kind of the core function of a blockchain operating system so yeah I'm super excited for it. Yeah, that's great. Well, to Sophia and Peter, you know, just building on Guillaume's metaphor of kind of the computer there. And we had talked earlier in the day about how Caledon had sort of organically built this IP over time. But now, you know, we feel like Hyperledger is the right place for this sort of a system. Maybe try and give some color to that around what's the thinking there and what's the opportunity for a larger system like this and why should it be done in the open? Maybe I'll start and Sophia you can go after. I think we've learned what success looks like. We've fished enough people out the soup with tech to know kind of what's needed. But I think the problem, you know, if body body systems are going to be a thing, the scale is big, you know, AI to be a thing the scale is big. And I believe as a developer and as an engineer, because it's the only way I build anything that the only way that that kind of scale of change happens is through open source nowadays. And while we know for Hyperledger where potentially like upper layer from where Hyperledger has been, we also see the diversity inside of Hyperledger, which is fantastic diversity of people of backgrounds, particularly with Bessie having come come in. There really is the community to come together to solve the hard problems. So it's really, really exciting for us and it's new for us to be part of something that could only be successful by being collaborative and being big in a way that open source can do that. And, you know, don't want to have to grant a thought but we do think that like blockchain tech and multi body systems needs done for it, what Kubernetes did for Docker, right. And we don't know what piece of the puzzle Firefly fits into, but we know we want to be a part of that community that's trying to do that same that same thing. And and it's really exciting, but that maybe that can be a lockstep to allow multi body systems to achieve that next stage of growth that we all want them to. Sophia, you have anything. Yeah, I think just a little hopping on to what gave the back of what Peter said. I mean, I think hyper ledger has the the enterprise blockchains or open source communities is center of gravity is in hyper ledger. So it seemed like a natural place from the timing perspective. Yeah, I think if you look at other new emerging technologies like AI, you know, there were fits and starts for decades. It wasn't consumable, even maybe I'm reflecting now seven years ago, eight years ago, you know, if you went to some large major it vendors, I'm not going to name names who had very prominent AI offerings. There were huge services engagements. You know, it wasn't really till there was a lot of sort of innovation in the startup side and then even the larger vendors moved to just the easy API is cloud driven that people could start through pulling AI into their solutions. So I think we're blocked enterprise blockchain is, you know, we see as John mentioned deep fire really taking off. And I love your analogies around the IO. I mean, the need for some basic functionality. If that doesn't appear in the community now, think just the adoption would stall under the weight of all these projects where people have spent a lot of money. And, you know, some are able to restart and do, you know, because there's so much business value and they've got the momentum. But it'd be a shame to sort of clip the wings of all this innovation that's needed as you know, post COVID, the world is looking to digitally transform a lot of back office processes. So I think there's sort of a perfect storm of forces where we can really help unleash the potential of this for the good of companies and governments. And it boils down to, you know, our health care experience of looking for a provider, you know, some of these things are even just public data, but the weight companies share them. We can't find the doctors accepting new clients in that work. We can't, you know, get an appointment, maybe the wrong phone number in there. I mean, there's just basic problems that could be solved. Tony, I know you're one project you worked on. And this was during, you know, COVID in, you know, March, and you look at what was happening in New York last year, you know, families were affected by someone who passed away. Well, they didn't know if they had life insurance. There was no coordination between all the parties. There's no master death record in the US, which can sound a little bit morbid. But when you lose a loved one, and now you need to get 15 paper copies of a certificate stamped and then take it to a bank, take it to a funeral home. You know, spend many hours with insurance companies, you know, it's great to see companies want like the carriers want to solve that problem. And Tony, you worked with them on that. So we want the technology to be there for them in a form where they can really move fast and get to those outcomes to help people. Tony, you want to add anything to that? Sure. It's actually kind of interesting because it's double edged. I think that the insurance companies want to do everything that they can to service their customers. So it's the ability to kind of bring together through all of those different disparate channels, the different stakeholders and the different information streams through the DLT to kind of make that possible. Right? So that, you know, when somebody is deceased, you don't have to go to the bank and you don't have to share that information with the 80 other parties that are necessary to actually, you know, bring somebody's final affairs into relief and to make sure that you have the ability to redeem your life insurance policy, your annuity or what have you. So there's also incentive based portion of it too. You know, in general insurance companies are not incentivized to share information with other insurance companies. So, you know, one of the things that was great about that use case is the ability to actually build an infrastructure, whether it's a tokenized infrastructure through some other incentives, that, you know, one party sharing information with another creates value for both parties. And in the end, I guess the customers made whole of doing that. Gary, going back maybe to a couple of Peter's comments from a few minutes ago, and I know you had shared, you signed the proposal for this project and when we talked with you about it, you said you'd had similar observations, similar thoughts. So, you know, pull back the curtain for us a little bit on what's interesting to you about Firefly and maybe some predictions about how you think it's going to shape up going forward or any thoughts on that front. Yeah, you know, I think, you know, looking back at a lot of the times when we saw people like in some of the solutions that people are building with like, you know, fabric, you know, for example, right, but it could have been, you know, any kind of blockchain, right. And then, and then sometimes even looking at like what people do with, you know, corda sometimes especially right more like because it was more like sort of like, you know, peer to peer, right. There was really this notion I saw where people people really conflated what I would call like workflow with like, like interactive workflow with actual like consensus protocols, they're not they're not actually the same thing right consensus protocols, like you and I coming like people always have this as like people coming to agreement, but that's not really it right and these things these are like computerized algorithms that determine like you know agreement about a state right that are you know based on you know, more or less a set of rules but not opinions and tasks and flowing right and we used to people used to show it in like fabric it's like you know we have endorsements is how we did it right I'm getting endorsement from these people that wasn't really the same thing as like approval. Right, endorsement was just checking at the state that the thing executed correctly according to a set of rules but it's not really not everything can be like an automated stamp approval right there's like some stuff that are just you know approvals or have to talk to other systems. And when you start looking at that that that brings the whole notion of, you know, workflow really I mean for lack of a better term right I'll call it you know workflow distributed systems but you know it really was across multiple parties right and if you look at most workflows stuff right there, built for the intra company use case. If you take another step back right B2B systems B2B ecosystems right had sharing of data. Right, so if you kind of break it down right the only things that really shared data per se right. You know there are people who do don't get me wrong but B2B has always been dig on this right you share EDI records and whatever supply chain etc, but it's data right I have my system you have your system we just agree that we're using you know this X dot 12 or this EDI format or whatever right health care the same thing with HL7 or whatever the systems are still completely different you could be epic you could be sterner but HL7 was flying around and we think that's all data you know integration problems right. So then you had blockchain which allowed us to put the rules around that and give me a shared view of the data right that's cool and synchronized and things like that. But it doesn't let me mimic the actual process of like the activities that actually happened in a step by step kind of process that aren't consensus protocol driven right and I think that's what you know we were looking at right and this allows you to break things down whether there's 50 people involved or three people involved right or you could have an ecosystem of 50 people and sometimes there's only three parties involved right in something but they wanted the whole aggregate is actually performing a sort of blockchain pieces right for verification etc. But the interaction and data movement was there and we've tried to like overlay all that stuff in fabric we tried to do it with like private data. I know even like in the Ethereum stuff they try to do this with it's a force fit right of something that's not that's not the right way to solve that particular problem. So I think that's been the missing element right and then I think if you can model. So if you want to solve problems sort of to answer a different question but that was asked before right I think there's two ways to advance this stuff because you can solve problems if you can prove that you can have the process flow work and then we can hook in the underpinnings. Instead of trying to build it from the bottom up we can actually prove out that I can send stuff around a Tony agree on the process and we can show stuff flowing. I am sure that we can find some plumbing right and today's stuff that can make the blockchain pieces happen or not it could be a centralized database if that's acceptable for some people right or it could be blockchain. You know if it's not so I think that's the piece that's been missing and that's that was the part that I liked about Firefly right. I like the term. I'm not a buzzwordy person but I think you know multi party systems is a better term for what we're trying to do then calling them like and then calling it like enterprise blockchain for short because that's just to you know brought up a term. And I guess the last thing I'd say is if you give people tooling that allows them to be a bit above the tech. Right it's just going to make it easier for them to get started and maybe apply this stuff. And I'd say one thing that slows things down is that people create architectures like people have a queue of problems to solve. So I'm not a big fan of enterprise architecture I should put that out there right I think that's why enterprises are too slow they make decisions three years in the past on what their architecture is going to be right. So if you really want to have it you have to say here's the problem I need to solve. And now let me go find the is there a technology today if I was making the decision today on how to solve this problem. Would it be the same way that I saw that I made when I made my decision three years ago. Right. And I think that blockchain becomes more palatable if people can actually like use it and get get above the bits and bytes. Right and multi party systems matches that much better than having. I don't mean this in a pejorative way but stupid arguments about my consensus protocols better than yours. That doesn't solve an actual business problem. Okay I'm done now. Brian you remember the good old days when we have when there are all those arguments about consensus algorithms and which ones are better. I don't remember arguments about consensus mechanisms at a low level maybe that happened like before even fabric was released or something like that. I think what I ended up doing was we were conflating small early architectural decisions that you always have to make when you start a software project because you have to start somewhere. I with longer term big picture like that shall be the only way to do it right. And so so I'm actually really happy to for us to see optionality at lots of different layers. But but with a common enough backbone to bring these different pieces together and so that hopefully is what Firefly represents. I mean it's it's somewhat similar to the way that in the Linux operating system there's always been debates about different ways of doing things. And if you can you know all the way up to like what windowing environment to use. And and really if we can engineer for optionality at these different layers it's why the focus on plugability in Firefly is so cool. Then we can have the best of both worlds we can try the different approaches and for use case figure out the right ones to pick so really happy to see that. And I think that the more that people in the rest of the hyperledger community understand that they'll find ways to slot in the things that they've been building. You know what's what's your perspective on on if how much value or is this a game changing notion for the sorts of projects that you've seen. Either the multi-party system concept overall or you know something like what Gary was saying a minute ago with you know being being able to untangle you know process business process from you know consensus and so on. You know coming from our clients are banks financial institution broker so for them it's a mix of on one side you know they want to do defy they want to get licenses to open an exchange get a broker business going for crypto for example. And then on the other side they've got all those problems of data exchange and you know they're building consortium and they want to have private chance to do certain workflows. And so from our perspective then the complexity is okay there's this various technologies some is fabric some is basic some is current some is public network. Some that we're building now are going to be like layer two Ethereum solution so the complexity is that you know from an engineering perspective then we have to get quite far into the understanding of the end of the technology and you know sometime one is better than the other but it's kind of like you know digging into what's difference between an AMD CPU and an Intel CPU. We do it because we have to today but we don't really want to. And so having some abstraction layer which gives us a standard interface to interact with one blockchain or more blockchains I think is yeah it's extremely important. And so for me it's yeah it's a game changer like you said to have this kind of early version of a standard interface to work with a blockchain so that more effort more energy can go on actually building the application you know enabling something useful for the business so yeah I'm sure in five years we're going to look back and think that was an important moment. John what about like a digital assets or a token perspective I know a lot of your your focus is is really around taking that particular powerful construct that blockchain brings along and trying to you know plumb that through an ecosystem. You know how how challenging is it to really build collaborative apps with the token for a set of enterprises these days and and how much efficiency could if if we envisioned a bet a more purpose built system could could we bring to bear there. Yeah it's an interesting question. When you say token I have a little allergic reaction right now I think you said earlier Sophia. We've been we started doing coupons and rebates using NFTs literally RC 721 NFTs two or three years ago now and of course now all the phone calls we made over those last two or three years to people saying you know you really should start paying attention to this technology everybody picked up the phone and said I want to issue an NFT to which we generally say why I mean what what what why do you need to issue you know an NFT you know from from the space station or you know whatever whatever current example is dropping across her thing. It tokenization is extremely powerful. We see it generally. We see tokens as a great way to incentivize behavior right so coupons a great example of you know a discreet fixed digital object that can be used by a brand to incentivize behavior and a customer or at the other end of the farm to fork chain could be used to and a third world country to share data about the conditions that he finds locally and it is working here so we think that that stuff like that token tokenization like that to encourage data sharing or sustainability is really important. You quickly run into the problem which I kind of was talking about earlier in terms of narrative which is what I call the says who problem right now right which is. Okay so I've given you a token or who who says you have that token right like who's responsible for operating the note so who's the person that makes sure that those tokens don't actually flow freely from you know one entity to another. That they act that if there's value if if a major brand deposits $100,000 worth of value into one of the ecosystem that that is. You know husband and shepherded and the correct way to make sure that you know if we're doing instantaneous settlement that stuff isn't leaking out on the edges either because you've written about our contract or because you've got people in the ecosystem that are colluding. I don't have any good answers for how to fix this I just know that these are the these are the narratives that we're constructing now as we talked to potential partners and and are trying to encourage people to operate notes like we want you to be responsible for making sure that as we have tokenized value flowing through our system to incentivize behaviors and to do instantaneous settlement that you're responsible shepherd that's the hardest part. Yeah, Tony, just thinking about how fireflies sending out to achieve this higher level of extraction right. You guys with risk stream you've been thinking about really building an industry platform. Right you've been on this journey. What what what does it mean for you building a platform that ambitious to take a bunch of the plumbing problem off of the table for you to focus maybe focus on some some other things. And the second part of the question is on maybe the multi protocol side. How do you think about different protocols and how valuable would you know having some amount of flexibility be there with maybe a common API sitting on top of that. Great question Steve, I can say that our relationship with flight oh and now with the firefly platform has been kind of a game game changer for for a stream. We were able to do in six months but it took us kind of two years to do through other methods through consulting and kind of building things in a custom way. And I think that one of the things that we're finding over and over again is not only is that speeds market really important for us as you know the the cycle for insurance companies is a little bit different or maybe a little bit different than in other areas where there's this underlying mistrust of anything new and then all of a sudden they kind of see it and it works and it's like all right we want it now. So that allows us to kind of move it a maybe not a slow and steady pace but we can kind of move in kind of leaps and downs when it comes to that. And you know, given the fact that you know, in the insurance industry since that since technology is a bit of a dirty word but but a word that's necessary, you know, having the ability to kind of do things through the the Firefly platform and kind of using that to build or building with the canopy. It allows us to actually focus as you said on the business problem. And you know where blockchain developers are kind of a scarce resources are scarce resource with many of the customers are customers that we deal with. You know, being able to kind of use resources that one would use to develop any other technology or any other application and kind of leverage the API that you guys put out there makes the whole blockchain process a heck of a lot more accessible to our members than it traditionally would have been, you know, before. I know that there was a second part to that question. Protocol. Yes. So, you know, one of the things that's really interesting, and certainly being an offer profit. It's one of the challenges that we face is that, you know, we always have to make critical decisions on, you know, where we spend our time where we spend our money, and what protocol or what technology is fit for purpose to do that. And the fact that, you know, we wouldn't have to start from the ground up, if say hyper ledger was better suited for one application or quarter or form or what have you. The fact that we have one kind of central clearinghouse to build a set of business rules and a set of capabilities on, and then we can be thoughtful about how we apply those sets of business processes and capabilities against the underlying ledger makes, you know, our job so much easier because it gives us the flexibility to not let the technology drive the solution. So if the solution drive the technology. And Sophia, with some of your clients have you seen, you know, some of these big bigger more ambitious sort of industry wide platforms, you know, just just the size and the number of companies and number of participants, you know, running multiple blockchain technologies in parallel, right. Have you seen those sorts of things or have you had any discussions there. I think people always would have wanted that, but now that it's available, certainly they see that as a big differentiator they could offer to their, the ecosystems they're putting together and their respective industry. You know, Tony's doing it for property casually life and annuity reassurance and we have others in healthcare and other domains. Yeah, multi protocols really important to them. It's interesting. I think it gets a comment earlier. A lot of times people focus too much on the tech decisions. I think something else Tony said just now is really interesting. They don't, they don't when they see it they want it. There's a lot of that where people don't really understand, you know, Gary your point enterprise blockchain versus multi party system or what a decentralized app really entails. And sometimes we even hear, you know, they don't even care about the UI or app, they're just, you know, they just want to focus on the plumbing, but the minute they actually see it come to life, and they see it on the glass and it looks like a real, you know, real product, then all, you know, everyone wants to use it and what, you know, wiring production yesterday and they want to onboard, you know, all their friends and family in the industry. I said just amazing seeing acceleration that could happen when you actually get to where the people who, you know, they're operating huge sets of call centers in one use case that just, you know, calling on making sure the data is accurate, you know, they want to arm all these people use this new app on the new, you know, multi party system, but you need to get to that stage to then get the buying and acceleration. I think that you've seen Tony, we've seen that in other places too. So I think, you know, having Firefly is a step forward there, what helps people get to those where they actually have the application and they could be onboarding getting the real usage and scaling. Yeah. Okay, well, final five minutes here, we're going, I'm going to switch to to go around the horn and give it everyone sort of their final thought or key takeaway for for the audience here, and I'll start with Peter. I guess I'm going to just elaborate a little bit on previous point. There were, there were people building solutions for multi party systems, and they were ecosystems. I, they're almost like islands. And the moment they kind of co located what you build a solution within an ecosystem or for an ecosystem, and it's kind of locked down and it's stuck there. You build for the main net or you build for this particular private consortium. And the scale that we can get to is when we start to build bridges. And we've talked about interoperability between blockchains is one type of bridge. I think interoperability between development communities, the ability to build solutions that can be more of an app store model where your application can work in multiple communities. I think is a different way to scale this, this great fun tool that the blockchain has. I think that's really exciting. Brian. Yeah, well, you know, an observation from 25 years of this is that, you know, building a successful open source project is a lot different from building a successful commercial product. And, and you have to think about them very differently. And that means, you know, kind of designing for, I know it's a trope of designing for inclusion, designing for, you know, that that first user experience and making sure as they're coming in and getting used to how to use the code, you know, they're also simultaneously learning why the code is built the way that it was built. And so having all the metadata involved in the development of that is so essential, so that you don't get what are called bike shedding arguments. That's a fun thing to go look up and understand the history of that. And that really means designing for opening the lid underneath the software as well, whereas a commercial product to you, you want to discourage them from doing that you want to kind of do the Wizard of Oz pay no attention to the man behind the curtain kind of thing. And then I also think that means answering, you know, the beginner questions pretty quickly are pointing to an FAQ answering the deeper questions very publicly even when they are kind of thorny. And then always having a parking place for new ideas about what what's next, so that even if the team that's been on it, you can't get to adding a certain feature, or integrating with another ledger or others there's always a place to direct people so that that that energy, you know, isn't dissipated because once dissipated it's it's hard to bring it back. So all these things are on my mind is I think about how to help the the firefly community become successful. But also hopefully it's on all of our mind as we're as we're deploying the project. Thank you. John, final thought key takeaway. Yeah, I guess to real quick, I'll hit again on two things I said earlier. First is, I think that the quickest path to success is to take a single problem. Try and solve that first. For us that problem on both consumer and supply chain was kind of tamper resistance right fraud proofs in coupon space and the supply chain space. And then, I think, you know, one of the challenges I see in education generally is I think the industry is doing a pretty good job in terms of making the tools, and the knowledge available to technical practitioners, you know, like ourselves to advance these initiatives but we're not doing a very good job of educating the public at large all say about about blockchain technology we're sort of we've sort of relegated that to mainstream media I don't think you're doing a very good job. And so anything we can do, maybe not at parties but in terms of making ourselves available to talk, you know, more intelligently and or help to improve the narrative, you know, kind of in the in the, you know, the wider culturally in the wider community, I think it's going to make all of our jobs easier. Thanks. But thanks. Thanks a lot for giving me the chance to panel really appreciate and yeah, you know, just to echo on what John was saying, you know, the takeaway for me is, you know, we're going to go back in our community here in Southeast Asia in our monthly meetups in all the things that we do and basically try to share the vision of we want to get to a world where there is thousands of blockchain tens of thousands of consortium, you know, and thousands of those shared computers running. If we want to build that, like we're sharing we need a community of people who know how to use a certain number of tools we know those open source software. And if we do all of that, like Peter was sharing was sharing, you know, we can then start to scale blockchain and I just want to finish with a simple example. I have a friend who's got a factory. And yesterday he called me and he said, Hey, I have this 3D growing. I'm going to send it to a supplier. I'm a bit worried they might take it and make a copy of it. Can I do anything. And I was on the phone with him and I told him, no, you can't. I mean, technically, yeah, there's, you know, some IRM solutions and if you spend money, you're going to sell it up, but practically you cannot today right now. And this is insane. Like when we have this technology now like blockchain where you can do very secure proof of ownership using tokens, cryptographically secure methods of exchanging value. It's insane that a big part of the traditional IT is still stuck in the dark ages, in a way. And so I think, you know, we need tools like Firefly to really scale the technology like Peter was saying. So yeah, thanks again for having me. Thank you, Gary. Yes, at first I know this is this has been fun. Good to see everybody again and meet some some new faces. I guess my, my deep thought for the day would be, I like and you know, I did IOT, like in like, I don't know, 2012 2013 right and there was a lot of hype around it right like 25 billion devices and whatever this huge curve, very similar to actually blockchain and enterprise blockchain if you think about it. And actually, it had the same, you know, didn't quite take off as much as we might have thought at the time right like there was just too much talk about the tech and all this other stuff. Now actually IOT is everywhere. We don't talk about it that much, but it's actually pervaded everybody's lives and it's used by major corporations. So to me the success of blockchain at least I'll say on the more enterprise sort of traditional distributed ledger side is when we stop talking about blockchain that's when we have success. Right. And I think that the way you do that is you to this point here is you solve problems. So tools like Firefly I think go up above that level right you're actually solving a problem showing people how they can solve a distributed industry problem moving stuff around. Then you layer that on top of whatever the appropriate underlying technology is, but again you started with the end, not the means right to date a lot of people have been about the means and not the end. So I think that's why, you know, things like fire that made sense in my head. I'm sure. But anyway, that's why you know Firefly is well positioned in here. Thanks for including me Tony. Sure. Thanks. This was awesome. Really exciting thing to talk to y'all just amplifying one thing that john said I would extend education to the business users as well. I can tell you it's a challenge that we face every every day and again, once they kind of understand it and they feel comfortable with it that they want to look forward. And then the second thing to amplify something Gary said is is accessibility. One of the things that's critical for the insurance industry is to be able to pull together all of the different channels and all the different data sources that are out there, and to make Firefly to actually make that easier and make that simpler and take a lot of the worry and the administrative burden of doing that really positions awesome positions are industry for really good continued success going forward. So thanks everybody. Sophia bring us home. Yeah, well we're coming out of the dark ages. Just a once in a generation shift is people are digitally transforming moving to the cloud. We've got a set of technologies for the first time that goes all the way back into the system of record. So it's really, it's really exciting times I think he almost said five years from now we'll look back at this so I hope all of us. Eight of us get back on a panel in five years and we could we could be reflecting but thanks so much for joining. It's been a pleasure with working working with all of them in the industry all these years. Well, we'll catch. Well, maybe we'll catch Gary on this next deep thought of the day. Five years. Well, thank you to all the panelists. There's been a lot of fun quarterback in this and lots of good input and insight and wisdom so we I know everyone on this panel is wishing that the Firefly community, you know, a happy launch and continued success. And so, with with these sorts of stakeholders and interested parties we are very optimistic about that path ahead. Transitioning to the agenda here we just got one more hour of the launch day to go. We were going to have a closing keynote and in parallel there is a meet the community event going on so there's two sessions to choose from. Sophia is this are we doing the keynote in this session or do we need to move. We need to meet the whole check. Just refresh and screen here. Yeah, it's a separate separate sessions. Okay, so for everyone that's here please join us for the last hour if you can go over to the sessions and we got two great choices to choose from a closing discussion and keynote. Or a more open discussion with with some of the maintainers and code committers in the community. Once again, everyone. Thank you. Take care. Have a good day.