 Hey, everybody. Thank you for joining us today. This is JSA TV and JSA podcast, the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals. I'm Jamie Scott, and on behalf of my team here at JSA, thank you for joining us, particularly during these truly trying times, as we adjust to the new norm we are facing, where terms like social distancing and COVID-19 are now part of our daily vernacular. And of course, as we're now working, learning, networking, virtually, perhaps these monthly roundtables are more important than ever, as we get a chance to weigh in with other industry experts and keep informed on the latest challenges we are facing. And so, yes, partnerships and opportunities, they may arise, the silver lining, let's talk about them in light of today's new reality. Also, hopefully, as a little sunshine at your door today, we have provided lunch, or if you chose a gift card to a local restaurant for the first 100 registrants. So for those of you who received, please enjoy your JSA lunch while we get started here. And a quick reminder, this is a roundtable. We want to hear from you. If you have questions for our panelists, go ahead and type the questions into our little question box or corner right there for you, depending on how much time remains at the end. We'll try to get to as many questions as possible. Additionally, we have been working with our JSA advisory board members, a particular shout out to Ion Horowitz, as well as our amazing JSA events team here, Amy and reading the charge for overnight revisions to our roster of upcoming monthly roundtable topics. So hot off the press, we are now including a series on how the coronavirus is impacting our data center telecom and tech industries. That roundtable in two weeks from today, April 2nd, and then how the outbreak impacts our smart cities and the health care, educational and financial verticals respectively. So a whole new set of fresh dates posted on jsa.net. Go ahead and check those out and weigh in. If you have a speaker, a suggestion or additional topic, we want to hear from you. We want to build these for you. But let's get started today. Amazing lineup, our topic connectivity and OTTs, the challenges and opportunities in partnering, and particularly now in today's new world of COVID-19. We have an all-star C-level lineup for innovative companies that are doing such global vision from these folks to help us introduce them and to guest moderate our panel. Please welcome back my friend, Thedo R. Smith. He is the president and managing partner of the BASEM. Of course, the Boston base went to BASEM as the leader in strategic advisory and market diligence burned the telecom and tech industries and has been set since 1991. So Thedo R, thank you for making the time to be here today and the floor is yours, my friend. Wonderful. Thank you, Jamie. Again, I appreciate everyone who's logging in. Obviously, it's an interesting time and I realize people have a lot going on more so than they anticipated probably when they signed up for this a week or so ago. Very excited about our panel. We have Tim Parker, the VP of Network Strategy from Accenture. Ryan Reel, Senior Director from CenturyLink. Yusuf Ayardas, the president at Globe Data. And of course, Eric Kontakt is the Executive Chairman at GlobeNet. This subject here is OTT in partnering with OTTs and like companies. Because of the extreme circumstances, I think we'll hijack the panel a little bit since we do have representation across a number of key segments within the industry. And I think I'd like to start with each of the panels going through, introducing themselves in a little more detail in terms of their role and how they do interact on the OTT side and then diving in on what you're seeing amongst your customers and on your network assets and across your business in terms of the impact of the last week or so with millions of workers now working from home and other infrastructure being retooled and reworked to address the current need. Tim, why don't we start with you? Yeah, thank you, Fedor. So I'm Tim Parker. So I'm the Vice President of Network Strategy at Flexential. So Flexential is a data center operator. We have 40 data centers across 20 regions within the US. And we're also into 12 carrier hotels. All of it is connected by 100 gig backbone. And we deal a lot with the OTTs and including the fact that we host several subsea cables, which many of them have been either leading the consortiums or a part of those subsea cables. And in terms of the impact you've seen thus far from from Corona and how that's been changing the way your clients are utilizing the assets they have with them? Yeah, one of the things we have seen is kind of a run on our IP bandwidth cells, where a lot of our clients are 3,800 plus clients are looking at purchasing more bandwidth capacity. And on top of that, we've had to make some pretty significant changes in how we manage data center access. You know, only emergency type of activities going on. The staff have to be there. We have to maintain our security and our support for those customers. And, you know, no time is more important than now to make sure that those systems and stuff are up during the time when people need access to the network and their compute. And so, but you know, we want to make sure that everybody is safe. And so unless it's an absolute emergency, we are limiting the access into those data centers during this time. Excellent. Ryan, you want to jump in? Yeah, Ryan Reel with CenturyLink. So for those of you who don't know, CenturyLink is a global operator of dark fiber networks, one of the largest IP transit providers globally. We are actually one of the largest Sealex in South America operate our own networks in Mexico, United States, Canada, as well as in Canada, and also in the UK and Ireland with subsea cable assets over to Asia that we operate, you know, a very large CDN network ourselves facing the industry. So from my perspective, I've got one of the wholesale divisions called Emerging Wholesale, which is actually a very diverse division within CenturyLink. I've got about 6,000 total customers that roll up within my segmentation. Those include both the Canadian wholesalers from a US perspective. I've got the regional carriers, so the Arlex, Ilex, and a lot of mix of the other ones within the Sealex communities, the reseller community. I've got the cloud providers within the domestic US space. I've got global data center responsibilities. And then I've also got the North American teams that sell into Amia and Latin America for North American support and services. So as you can imagine during this time, because of the diversity of the customer base, I'm seeing a very wide ranging types of responses from my customers. And then of course, what we're putting into effect in regards to the COVID-19 ourselves. From a CenturyLink perspective, we are actually rolling out a emergency bandwidth fast track for service delivery to increase lit capacity and to our customer locations to be able to actually support the needs into our data centers that we support to the day, making sure that our OTT operators, which are critical to the operation during this time are being prioritized. And then you have kind of the opposite of that right now where a lot of my reseller community, especially in kind of a small, medium enterprise space, they're already reaching out and trying to figure out how they're going to deal with the financial struggles that the retail restaurant space is already experiencing, especially in kind of that independent, small, medium enterprise space where a lot of those businesses have anywhere from two to three weeks of working capital on hand. So being shut down for the extended period of COVID-19 based on the government orders is going to be really straining a lot of those individuals and causing bankruptcies in some cases. So really kind of the whole spectrum that we're dealing with right now. And as part of that, we're looking at, you know, financial ways that we can operate within CenturyLink to make sure that we keep as many businesses, you know, operating as possible. Make sense. You still? Yes. Hi, everybody. My name is Husto Valadaris or Valladades. I'm the president of Gold Data. Gold Data is a regional telecommunications operator with a focus in the Americas, from Canada down to Chile, Argentina. We've seen basically two things right now. We are definitely facing a downturn in the economy. We think that we need to get prepared for that. So we are protecting our customer base. That is one of the musts in our company. We have already seen a direct impact in some of the lines of business of the company, especially when you talk about the broadcasting division. Everything has been shut down as far as sports, live events. And that is a long business that is quite important to us who are trying to shift from the live event and continuity of business, connecting those live venues to our clients, move shifting to an online perspective or online business way of doing things as people, you know, will be at home and will be able to watch all these events in a different manner. And hopefully looking forward to pay for that for our clients and for ourselves. There are different impacts depending on the countries we are in. The United States is a totally different situation compared to Venezuela, for example, where we have a national shutdown. And fortunately, we were able to convince the authorities to include the telecommunications industry to be part of the non-excluded sectors from, you know, mobility around the city. So we are now able to go directly to our clients and service them in case of any outages or problems. I think it's definitely a necessary service capacity. Eric, do you want to jump in? Sure. First and foremost, Jamie and Fedor, thanks for the invitation to participate. Eric, contact, been with GlobeNet for over 15 years. We are an international service provider based on our own subsea network connecting the Americas, mainly the US with Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, and Bermuda and we're in process of building under a joint build agreement with Facebook, a cable between Brazil and Argentina. So we service the wholesale providers only, whether it be carriers or OTTs. And so we're, let's say, a layer removed from some of the things that we're seeing in the market. But it is quite obvious, not only here, but around the world, that our networks are being stress tested. Access in particular is going to be a problem, I believe. I think that networks were designed to be built, or they were designed back then for the busy hour initially, where people assume that only a certain percentage of the day you're at home. And then you basically design that network for those peaks, but those peaks are gone. Now the whole 24 hours are a peak, to some extent. You have kids at home, you have parents working from home, you have lots of social media, you have video, you have all sorts of demands on data that are, let's say, stressing the network. So we have already seen requests from our customers to upgrade their bandwidth, a little bit in anticipation of what they think is going to come. Those are definitely short-term measures, not sure how long those are going to say, let's say, in place, but we hear support them. Just this morning, the Brazilian regulator asked and encouraged all the telecom providers to upgrade their bandwidth as well, because it is very clear that communications is an essential service, and they're asking to prioritize bandwidth for first responders and hospitals, and let's say, and so on. So I think in the U.S., as in Latin America, we have not yet seen the peak of what is to happen. I believe we're just at the bidding, the heel of that exponential curve, as we start to see virus cases in, let's say, in our regions. And so whatever happens in Europe is going to happen in the U.S. probably another 10 days or so, and that's going to even put further stress on the network. So what we have done as a company is we have implemented our emergency protocols. Over a week ago, we already asked people to start working from home, and then we just went to a total home office, let's say, model from our network perspective and cable landing stations. We have emergency protocols, similar to the ones that we use in case of hurricanes. So those are in place and happened in place since this, let's say, epidemic started. And I think so far so good. I think we've been able to support the requirements of our customers, but I do believe that there's going to be a lot more stress on our networks in the months of time, days and months of time. Yeah, I think that's almost a certainty. And Eric, you know, towards the subject at hand, you mentioned them all about cable in partnership with Facebook. The subject of the panel is OTT, which is very broad. How do you guys narrow that down a bit? In other words, a gold net, what are the sub segments within what might be regarded as OTT and how do you, how do they differ in terms of how you manage them? That's a great question, Ferdor. I think we tend to, in particular, we, the carriers tend to drop the OTTs into one bucket, and they're very different buckets in reality. If you look at the way that Google architects, their network and a Facebook there is a Microsoft and Amazon, they're very different networks. And so you cannot really generalize. So the key is you really need to know your customer. You really need to understand how they're architecting, designing their networks and what they're looking for. So let me give you one, one simple example. Google has certain, a lot of data centers in the Northern atmosphere of our world. And then they just started deploying data centers in the Southern atmosphere. Chile is one of them. They just announced a data center in Uruguay, and they're building their networks and even there, they're building subsea cables and traditional networks to mainly interconnect, let's say those data centers. The Facebook architecture is a little bit different. Facebook has their data centers only in the Northern hemisphere. So what they're looking for is they're looking multiple paths. They're looking for diversity. And basically they say, look, if we could have five routes into a facility, that would be ideal. Because if I only have two and I have a double cut, I'm darned. If I have three, we may not have enough capacity to serve as one of it goes down, certainly not if two go down. And then you do that math. And then the number that kind of works, let's say, is five. Because the other thing that you will see with these, let's say, OTTs is that it is very difficult for them, in particular for the top two, to forecast demand. You never know when application is going to be sticky. Or it's difficult to predict something like the pandemic that we have now, where all of a sudden people are jumping on all sorts of social media to share pictures and videos and files and comments and etc. And so the network and the data centers and their services all need to be able to scale. So they automatically built in that additional headroom, so that they can, let's say, address that peak as much as they can. If you look at an Amazon and a Microsoft, they're different. They're mainly focused on, let's say, cloud services. So the way that they architect and that work is they have, let's say, a couple of big data centers, and then they have smaller city center, edge data centers, and that keeps going down more the open spoke model to some extent, in order to be able to distribute, let's say, services. So again, I think you need to know your customer well. You need to understand their network, and then see how you can address their needs. That makes sense. Yeah, and I could actually add, maybe on the other side of it, I don't have the hyperscalers myself appear within Centrelink does. So I see the other end of the OTTs, those that I would actually classify as either kind of a hybrid type of infrastructure, OTT player, or what I would call a pure play OTT, pure play. That's really the OTTs that they don't really own any of their own infrastructure. They're actually going and acquiring IP transit. They're basically housed and growing out of either an AWS or an Azure type of instance. A lot of startups, of course, begin this way, but we still have a lot of larger OTT players that actually exist within the space. And then further from that perspective, you have kind of a division between kind of the business focused OTTs and the entertainment focused OTTs. And what you're really finding in this time of COVID-19 is you're seeing a blending of the two of them, because they're both operating from the home environment now. So the pure plays, which are highly dependent on IP transit for access and streaming and other types of services and don't have localized caching within carrier networks, they're really struggling in this current situation, because at the end of the day, they don't have a whole lot of control over the actual network that they're delivering their services over. And that's presenting a very large problem for them right now, where you get into kind of a hybrid OTT player that has infrastructure, that have deployed local caching, they may be doing some type of edge compute functionality, depending on the applications that they're deploying, they have purchased wavelength backbone access in between data centers, they exert a lot more control over the delivery of their services. And I think right now, we're starting to see where the pros and cons come out for both of those type of strategies. And I know everyone wants to talk about the hyperscalers, because they're always in the news and they're the volume and everything else, but we have thousands, literally thousands of OTT players globally from the startup phase to well establish that play in these other two areas. Yeah, Ryan, you bring up a good point everyone wants to go right to fang and the hyperscale players, but there's such a depth beyond that. Tim, do you guys find yourself interacting with a broader range beyond that? And also, how do you identify strong opportunities in that growth area? And how do you differentiate between that and something where you're going to spend a lot of resources on a upstart that doesn't actually get anywhere? OTTs are all of those type of content and social media type of players. They all have different needs and different desires. And one of the things that's probably the most common is that when they move into a data center operator, they're looking for heavy connectivity options. Some are going to want a lot of fiber opportunities, some of them are going to want a lot of bandwidth and the premium carriers like a central link or Atelier or some of those others. And then some are, they just want a lot of options. And so what we've learned probably more than anything else is that you have to be flexible and you have to take each one of them independently. And ironically, it's not even the same within some of these OTTs, there's different groups and they have different requirements. And then you have to manage that. And you just think you have it down and all of a sudden they're like, well, no, we have a different team that wants to do something different. And then they come in with a whole list of new requirements and an RFP, and you kind of have to manage it. And we're a little different than some of the big data center operators like an equinex and that we're in these tier two markets, but we're finding now that's the edge, right? And that's where a lot of them are wanting to come in and they're wanting to do multiple deployments. So they're kind of wanting a similar type of data center experience at each one of them, but they're willing to be flexible. And they know that they're not going to be able to go to one location to get exactly the same that they can in another. Our goal is really to try to build a platform of interconnection that they can come in and have a lot of choice and then be able to do that. So we put a lot of time and effort in making sure that we have, you know, typical diverse connectivity in there, lots of carriers. And by the way, by the time you do all this for the OTTs, all the enterprise customers that come in and the startups find that it's very attractive to them also. And so you're not, you know, all that effort is not for one single customer to kind of build this ecosystem that helps everybody. I could not concur more with, let's say with 10. We actually went through that in Brazil. We have landing station facilities in Fortaleza that we've repurposed, let's say, over the years. And if you go back 10 years, there's nothing there. But because of economic development, that's an Ontario or Brazil that grew. And what we did is we said, look, we are carrier neutral. So neutrality is very important and having clear rules is very important. How do you connect? You don't want people to splice in a manhole outside just because they want to save themselves cross-connect. So you have to set up these rules need to be fair for them to come in. But by doing that and attracting every single trestural operator, that also attracts, let's say, the smaller OTTs and larger OTTs alike. So I totally support what Tim has just said. And once that ecosystem is built, it is very critical to provide a high quality of service and allow them to, let's say, interconnect. And so it's that interconnectivity. It's the use of that ecosystem that is absolutely critical in the development of some of these, let's say, highly connected facilities. I think that almost everything has been said. But from our perspective, yes, we have connected as much OTTs as possible around our 160 data centers in the region. We separate them based on bandwidth needs. Some of them are very demanding in terms of bandwidth because of the content that they manage both domestically and internationally. And we have also worked very hard for them and for us to build a content delivery network, which is a specialized infrastructure for content. And they are looking at that infrastructure very closely because they believe it's a very valuable asset for them that they can lease or participate in conjunction. We're going to discuss about that later about partnerships between the carriers and the OTT community. On the other side, they have needs for their own real estate, their own offices, needs for their own clients. That means capillarity. The OTT needs capillarity just like any other carrier. And we're thriving for content like any other OTT. So it's going to be very interesting how we can work together or if we cannot. Because if we cannot work together in the end in the long run, it's going to be a dogfight. That's what I think. And one of the things I would add to it is I had started to say is you have to qualify the OTTs that you're engaging with because they can overwhelm you just with the sheer volumes, especially within the startup space. What I've done specifically within my organization is I have set up a specific onboarding organization, which actually they quantify and qualify these individuals. Because at the end of the day, it's hard to tell who's going to be the next big OTT player in the space. Everyone claims that they're going to be the next AWS or Zoom or Netflix. And it really requires making sure that you give an equal shot to each person as you're working through. And a lot of times the lines of credit and stuff becomes a very big issue with a lot of these startup players. They're building their network. It was a PhD or a software engineer that's come up with a great idea for the next great service. But they don't have necessarily all the funding in place. And those are the ones where if you can create an early relationship and partnership with, it can blossom into something amazing. But you don't know that when you initially engage. So making sure you have your organization set up so that you can actually cover as many as possible with the lowest number of actual resources. And the best way of doing that is segmenting it to a part of your sales organization so that you don't have everyone in your whole entire company trying to field and manage these types of individuals. Yeah, I know, Ryan, you have to jump fairly soon. But I want to go back to something that I used to have said about CDN or content delivery networks. Obviously, Central Inc. has one in place. And we talked a lot about dark fiber, lit capacity, CDNs. How are the needs changing? How much does having a CDN built-in capacity change your ability to deliver for OTT players, specifically around the content space? They're very particular about how they do things. Tim, you talked about the continuity across different facilities. How is that continuity offering depth, et cetera, playing into it? Is it still possible just to be straight bandwidth on a littered arc level? Or is there more value in having more depth to offer? From my side of the house, the depth is very critical. Because what you're looking at is, as you get heavy compression within the bandwidth space of the business, you're really going up the stack to sell a lot of value added services to make sure you have a full solution. So being able to have things such as private cloud development environments to basically help companies that are either migrating from an orchestration perspective into other cloud environments is very important. CDN, our CDN complements a lot of our customers' CDN deployments to make sure that they get a lot more reach, increases the capacity for them. The storage that we deploy allows them to really, from a low-cost perspective, go into markets that they normally wouldn't have actually expanded into just because of the sheer cost, even at a bare metal type of environment. So from my perspective, it's extremely critical. I agree. Is that what others are seeing as well? Yeah. And I do need a drop. I do apologize, but thank you for having me today. Thanks, Ryan. Towards the end of facility continuity, Tim, that you had mentioned, is that becoming, obviously, each of these major players, both large and small, have very finite needs. The larger they are, even more so, very finite needs around what specs they need to address, what level of control they want over their network. Has that changed the way you do business? And is that capability now becoming meaningful to more traditional carrier customers, or is it really specific to the new web scale and OTT type plans? You know, it really varies. And I think with the web scale and the OTTs and some of those both, you know, security is a critical part for them. And, you know, having the capabilities to really be flexible in what they want. And, you know, like I mentioned earlier, different parts of the organization have different requirements. So you think you have it all ironed out, and then a new part of the organization comes in, and maybe it's like they just want to put their point of their pops there. And that team has a whole different set of requirements that you have to work around, including bypassing meeting rooms, multiple entrants with type of requirements. So, being flexible is probably the most important. And then having a consistent platform as much as possible from an overall space power and the field so that they know what they're getting into. And just trying to build that. So over the past two years, we spent a lot of time trying to make our edge data centers in multiple regions be very consistent from a connectivity standpoint at multiple entrance facilities. We have a couple different generation of data centers that are Tier 3s, uptime certified. And so those are very attractive because they know they're going to be up all the time. And, you know, it's, I just can't stress how much the importance of having that interconnection capabilities. And, you know, Fiber is to a lot of the OTTs. But one of the things we have found, which became a really unique ecosystem was our Hillsboro 2 data center up in Portland area, where we have multiple subsea cables coming into there. And now we have multiple carriers. And now we're finding in a lot of Fiber providers are even trying to bypass the downtown carry hotel to come in because they want to service those OTT. We have wanted to go ahead and use that to do long-haul connectivity, whether it's back up to Seattle or down to San Jose or in those areas. So having all of that kind of ecosystem becomes, I think, the most important aspect when you look at it. You know, quality space and power, they just expect that from a, you know, an operator to have that. And so that's a table stake you have to have. But now we're finding that connectivity becomes a table stake and having those different choices. And, you know, and it's, and there's no one carrier that they're all interested in. Every one of them has a couple of different choices. And so you've got to be able to kind of tackle the top four or five to, you know, service providers and then also be able to handle, you know, cross-connects are like something that continues to be an issue with all the OTT. So having some, I would just say, customizable packages for them makes it real attractive to them. When you say cross-connects, you mean the fact that they need so many of them that becomes cost prohibitive? So you're... They need a lot and they want them for very low cost. And so sometimes it breaks some of your normal business models. And so you have to back up and say, well, you know what, we know that this is a different type of play. And so we build these bundles. We build these, you know, overall just really customizable solutions for them. And then hopefully we can deploy, you know, within four or five data centers as they expand. Yeah. I think it used to obviously for a subsea type environment retrofitting is a little more involved. Have you seen that? And is a lot of consortium and partnership effort driven to just deliver capacity? Or is it also because specs are needed to be met or expectations are that they need infrastructure that is unique to what is available to them elsewhere? Yeah. You know, in Hillsborough, they're really great examples. So we were one of the first data centers to have an actual SLT and the PFB sit in our data center versus sitting out at a landing station. I mean, we're 80 miles away from the landing station, but they moved all of their, for the new cost Pacific, which was a consortium that was organized and led by Microsoft. And so that was, you know, brought in a huge subsea cable into our Hillsborough data center, the largest to date still in the Pacific. And so, but, you know, we as a data center operator hadn't done, hadn't really worked with anyone in the past. And this was 2015 to really design something to handle a PFB and an SLT. Now that's becoming more of the norm and you see more of that as they're doing that. And then, you know, we didn't have to really retrofit. We were very fortunate that that data center was brand new and was being built at that time. So we could make some changes to it at the time. But what you are seeing though, as far as a retrofit, your policies around massive amount of fiber going from those cages where those, all those carriers built in around that subsea cable, either out to your meeting room or bypass your meeting room and go right out to the vaults. And so that's what you have to do. And that was different than what we've dealt with with a lot of enterprise customers in the past. And now that's becoming kind of the norm, they just want to bypass everything and want to go right into the vaults, place right into their fiber, and then be able to manage it all themselves. Let me just jump in a little bit here. I think in the subsea market or the subsea scenario, the partnership between the traditional carriers or owners of subsea infrastructure and the OTTs today is perfect because we cater to different clients. Okay, so they can be tenants of our subsea infrastructure without, you know, disrupting their way of doing things or our, you know, focus in our enterprise clients or the carrier community. So they, fortunately, we haven't seen them catering to the last mile so much, at least in our region, I've seen some cities, you know, I was very, a couple of weeks ago, I saw Lake City and I saw Google fiber all over the city. You know, I was like, what is this, right? But I think if it's going to be global and if they're going to build all this subsea capacity and if they are going to enter in the last mile local loop industry with, you know, all out, as I said before, it's going to be a gloves off scenario. And, well, the more creative and the best in the field will end up being the winner or we are going to see more mergers and acquisitions in both industries, you know, to being able to fight between big players and not small players against big players. I tend to see that a little bit different because I think what you need to set aside is that what is difficult is that you have two very different business models that happen to coincide up of a shared infrastructure in many cases, right? On one side, you have, let's say, companies like ourselves, whether you're a data center provider, location provider, subsea provider, regional network, et cetera, that is here to make money, right? So we're building infrastructure, we have a long-term view, you design your networks for 25 years, you expect certain cash flows over several years, you expect a certain market growth, and that's a model that you use to build that network. And then on this side, you have, let's say, the hyperscalers and the other OTT type companies that they don't make their money in telecom services. As a matter of fact, they don't want to make money in telecom services, they don't want to be regulated. What they do is they're making their money in advertising, mainly, right? And in other type of perhaps corporate services. So their revenue streams are coming out of very different pockets than our revenue streams, right? And so in order for them to have what they need, in order for them to be able to continue to provide free Gmail, what's up, what have you, they're making their money through, let's say, those ad, those ad dollars, those click-throughs, right? So that means that in order for them to be able to scale and to do these things, they have to lower their costs of operation. And that's why over several years, they have, they started out as a customer of ours to being a partner, to building their own infrastructure, to being an indirect competitor, because what they're looking for is the lowest cost per bit. And so for them, infrastructure is, the way they look at it is as a cost or cost plus basis, right? And so their objective has been to reduce that plus to close to zero, or in some cases, negative, right? I think as these companies and as these OTTs mature, they're starting to realize that squeezing the bone marrow out of vendors is not a good idea, right? If you look for example at what's happening today in the market, I am concerned with a global subsea space. I am concerned because you cannot operate on five or six percent margin. You can't. If you're supposed to be a builder of a network, a subsea vendor, where you're supposed to do R and D, come up with the next technology, et cetera, you cannot disrupt infrastructure the way you disrupt software. Some people have understood that. They've seen the potential damage to the industry. And you're actually seeing it right now. I mean, if you walk away from the telecom discussion that we're having, and you're looking at the potential impacts of COVID-19, you start to realize that those companies that are down to a lot of financial engineering, they have very short-term views, they don't have saved money for a rainy day, they're going to be in trouble, right? Large hotel change that should be here for 100 years may be gone, airlines, et cetera, right? And the same is true for infrastructure. You need to have big dollars to invest. And telecom is a game of volume and is a game of capital. You need to have a capex to deploy these large networks. You need to have the end users and the number of, let's say, instances to be able to make up for the money. So I believe that as these OTTs mature, they're looking at the space a little bit different. And for example, if you look at what some of them have done in the U.S., they have said, well, if I need to connect my data centers and there is no operator that can build a network because they cannot afford it, then what if we build it? And then we're making it available to somebody else. That's, let's say, that's part of the thinking that you're starting to see. Or they're looking at what new technologies, disruptive technologies can be out there. And we have the dollars to invest in R&D in them and we can play with them. How do we take these services to rural areas where otherwise a government would have to step in to make those investments? So they are taking some of these steps. The question is, how do you marry them, right? How can you kiss and make up? How can you partner with them, given that our interests are so different? And that is a challenge. I've often heard that from the OTT side of the hyperscuss. Well, if Kerry just did what we needed, it wouldn't be a problem. But do you think that they are being cognizant now of the fact that straining their partners on price is not a long-term play and that that has consequences? Or do you think that they are going to utilize what they can to get where they need and deal with the consequences later? It really depends on the company. I mean, I think some have realized they are impacting the supply chain. So if you look, for example, at the at the subsea space, deploying an international cable is very, very complicated. You need to have ships, you need to fabricate the fiber, you need to have people that have certain amount of knowledge, etc. And fortunately, for the large four providers around the world, there are factories right now are full. And all those cables are mainly driven by the OTTs. What has changed is, as I mentioned before, maybe they were a customer, now today they're either an investor or a co-investor, or they're building systems themselves. So from that perspective, there's a lot of activity. The question is, is the market healthy? And I don't have an answer for that. You're being hit with a couple things at the same time. Look, across the Atlantic, you have 15 old cables or 16 cables, and you're built a couple of other ones, right? They still have a design life left of five, 10, 15 years in some cases, right? And yet their economic life is getting shortened by the minute. Every time a new cable comes in, we're in the past, a four fiber care for five repair cable was large. Today, an eight fiber pair cable is small. And are you looking at 12s and 16s and even larger, let's say, cables down the path and each one with more capacity per fiber pair. So it's going to get to the point where maintenance alone is going to be prohibitive on the old cables, you're going to have to shut them down, right? So that's going to happen. The next three to five years, we're going to see that occur. But once, let's say, the cables that are in the drawing board are laid, and we saw them the early 2000s, what are you going to do with these crews, right? You have to train people. You need to keep them active. You need to have the ships maintained in order to maintain, let's say, this very delicate global infrastructure fabric, right? And that's where discussions are being held about, hey, let's think about this problem differently. And I think that's why, for example, we partnered with Facebook to build Malbec, which is our subsequent cable between Brazil and Argentina. And I think there's two very important guiding principles there. The first one is trust. You can't buy trust. You cannot throw your logo at trust initially. What you have is you have to build trust. So it's critical that they recognize in their partner, whoever it is, ourselves or somebody else, the importance of that relationship, because it has to go both ways. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? And transparency. So you have to be transparent throughout the entire process, right? And then the third thing, I guess, is you need to agree to disagree, right? So you're not always going to be looking at things the same way. And those are the tough discussions. But you will get through them if they're based on trust and on transparency, right? And that's how we've done our project. And we're actually very happy with, let's say, with the process. Yeah, I think I agree, Eric. I think the one thing that you're seeing is there's, even the OTTs are looking at hybrid environments and hybrid connectivity options. You can't go about it all by yourself. And there's no option to either trade routes or work with somebody like yourselves and stuff to partner with and fun part of that route. We saw a lot of that with the consortium build that came from NCP. And if you talk to certain folks, they'll tell you it's a lot of hard work. And it was one of their first figure investments. And they found that it was, it's difficult. And there's a lot of moving parts. And there's a lot of things that if it's not core to your business, it's almost like a cost center. And then you're like you were saying, then you're starting to figure out, why am I doing this? So I think in moving forward, I think you're going to see both. I think you're going to see them still build some of their environments that they need. And it is almost counterintuitive. You're sitting and saying, well, there's already another subsea cable being landed. Why are you wanting to do something for your own? But I think they're looking at a lot of diversity play now. I think we've all learned that diversity is critical. And so maybe you fund one and then you go trade like the carriers have done in the past, like the carriers have, where you trade routes and you trade with NCP. And you make things available for other folks. And even in the data center environments, we're starting to see more of a shift towards, we're in those tier two markets. And we're seeing a lot of them looking at wanting a lot of diversity. So maybe they're already in the carrier hotel, but they know that they need an alternative to that. And we're starting to see builds where they're putting half pops, if you want to call it that, into two different data center operators so that they get that diversity. And I think the same thing is starting to be viewed in the subsea cable. There's this whole, build these mesh networks. And the only way to do that is to partner up with other subsea carrier operators. Yeah, I think of that statement, Tim. And as a matter of fact, the way that I look at the world from the substantive perspective is I say, look, there's basically these two buckets, right? One bucket is the data center subsea cable or data center to data center cable. And that's where you optimize for the route, you optimize for the latency, you try to build as big of a cable as you can. And that's when you see changes like the ones you described. And I did visit your facility, by the way, it was great in Hillsboro where they actually said, let's redesign the network to push out the electronics to the data center and stuff like that. So those things we're seeing, the very big monster systems are being designed exactly like that. But there's still another market there, which is what I call the people-centric or people-to-people cables, which is what we've been doing for the last 150 years. And that's when you're building a network to reach a new geography or a new market, an emerging market, maybe an island that is on the way from one place to the other, right? There are just some markets that are not attractive, let's say, for the OTTs, or they're close enough or latency doesn't matter. So I'm sure that some of these very large ones can serve Central America, for example, out of Miami. Or if they have something in Miami and something in Colombia, what they need is what Husso was saying earlier, what you need is capillarity, right? So you need to be able to reach, let's say, these other locations, whether that be threshold, whether that be, let's say, subsea. And that distributed approach is starting to happen. So I agree with you there again, Tim, where you can have a monster hyperscale data center somewhere, but you still need to have, let's say, a micro facility somewhere in the middle, which has now become like that edge facility, whatever edge means, and perhaps you're even going to go to the micro edge at some point in the future, right? So you're trying to get certain services closer to the end user, taken and took out latency, quality of service, et cetera. So that distributed model, let's say, will happen. And I see Jamie trying to jump in because I realize we are definitely out of time. I think that's a really good point. And I do think that I was discussed earlier, that planning and networking times like this, when the networks are constrained and when the capillary reach becomes significant is what's going to differentiate the larger players from the folks who are trying to put it together individually. Thank you all very much, Jamie. I will leave you with the closing word because I realize we've run over substantially. Tammy is still, Eric, really appreciate you guys making the time, speak to us all. I think we could probably do about another 45 minutes, and next time we'll schedule for an hour and a half. But thank you very much for the input. It's been a pleasure. So amazing to listen to all the insight and your generous time, particularly today. I cannot thank you guys enough. Our questions on the board have been going nuts, but you guys have been systematically answering them. So I was like, I was going to jump in with one, and I'm like, nope, they asked, nope, cross that one off. So thank you, audience, for being so fabulous with your questions. And if you do have ones that you feel still require an answer, go ahead and email us at PR at jsa.net. And we'll forward them around and get them answered for you. But again, thank you, everyone, our host, our panelists, and who's still valid at school data, Eric, contact, look net, Tim Parker, flex central, Ryan, we'll sent you a link. And of course, the big thank you to radar Smith and then to BCM for keeping us on point. And viewers, thank you for tuning in. If you were one of the first 100 registrants, hoping to do lunch and go ahead and visit us at jsa.net to register for upcoming JSA virtual roundtables, including again, our new store, our new series exploring the impact of COVID-19 on our industry and client verticals. Next one up April 2nd, just two weeks away, we're, we're adding more to the calendar here. And we're talking the negative and positive impacts of COVID-19 on data centers and technology with thought leaders from NetSapien, Salute Mission Critical, Data Bank, Edge Micro, DR Fortress, connected to fiber and continuum with guest moderator and our industry's top social influencer, having for sale. So that's all for now. Thank you for tuning in. The playback of today's roundtable will soon be available on JSA TV and JSA podcast. That's on YouTube, iTunes, iHeart, Spotify, and more. Wherever you go, we'll be there until next time. Happy networking and stay safe, my friends. Thank you. Stay safe.