 Hello and welcome to TownMeeting TV's coverage of TownMeeting Day 2024. This is the first forum in a series of forums that we will be hosting in advance of TownMeeting Day this year, or next year rather, which will be Tuesday, March 5th. TownMeeting TV hosts forums with all candidates and covers every question that you will see on your ballot, introducing you to community decision makers, and connecting you with issues that shape your local community. You can find all of our forums at ch17.tv or on our TownMeetingTV YouTube channel. This forum is also in advance of the Burlington Democrats TownMeeting Day Nominating Caucus, which happens on Sunday, December 10th. Voting for that caucus will be held virtually, with limited in-person voting for those who need it. You can register online to vote in that caucus at btvdems.org, that's btvdems.org. So tonight's program, we will hear from candidates running for the Democratic nomination for the Burlington Mayoral Race. We are joined by three candidates tonight, Joan Shannon, C.E. Madison, and Karen Paul. Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you for having us. Thanks. Awesome. So we've prepared a list of questions for the candidates here tonight, and each of you will have either one or two minutes to answer the questions. We will allow 30-second rebuttals. When appropriate, I'll try my best to keep time here. If you're tuning in live, we also will welcome your questions at 802-862-3966. If you call in, we will do our best to prioritize your question, though we ask that questions be directed at all three candidates, and not just one candidate in particular. It sounds like we already have a question on the line, so you can continue to call in and we will do our best, but can't promise to get every call in question on the air. So that's 802-862-3966. You can see there, that's where you can see this forum and others. So let's first jump in to opening statements, and we'll start with you, Joan. So tell us why you should be nominated to represent the Democratic Party in the upcoming mayoral election. Well, thank you, Bobby, for hosting this, and thanks to CCTV. I have been a city counselor for 20 years, and for three of those years served as council president. I would say I'm more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. I really believe the government should work for people, and I have a demonstrated collaborative approach to problem-solving, and I have, you know, my campaign slogan is all hands on deck because I really have invited everybody from all sides of the political spectrum to participate in the vision, including progressives, Democrats, and more conservatives. I don't think anyone has a monopoly on good ideas, and I think it's important to be inclusive in government. I'm also the only candidate who vocally opposed the decreasing of the police force by 30% back in 2020 and worked to provide an alternative to that action, which I think is something that's really impacting us today. Thank you so much, Joan. C.D. Madison, your opening statement. Thank you so much for having us. I'm running for mayor of Burlington because I love this town. As a military kid whose family bounced around, I didn't discover what home felt like until I found Burlington 37 years ago, and she took me in. As a community, I believe there are two things that we can agree on. One is that everyone should be safe and feel safe, and right now people are feeling stuck and afraid. And the second thing that people can agree on is that what we've been doing for the past 15 and 20 years isn't working. It's time for new leadership and a culture shift to a comprehensive and collaborative way of working centered on policy that serves everyone in our community rather than just the loudest voices in the room. It's up to us to decide Burlington who we are as a community, and I believe in the vibrant, creative, kind, innovative, and generous community that we are. And that's why I'm running. Thank you so much, Karen. Thank you, thanks so much. We are, as we all know, living in challenging times. And I think this is a pivotal time in Burlington's history. I've lived here all my life. I was born here, as was my mother, my grandmother, and I've raised three children, all of whom went to Burlington High School and Burlington Schools. I think that these times demand deliberative and bold urgency, and they demand a mayor who can truly hit the ground running on day one. A mayor who has the experience and the proven track record, not in words, but in actions of really, truly being able to bring people together. Someone who is a bridge builder and can move our city forward at this incredibly difficult and pivotal time. I have a, I believe that I have the professional background, 15 years on the city council, 11 on the board of finance, nearly two as council president, as well as chair of many committees, including chair of public safety, to bring forward sweeping action that is definitely needed at this time. And that includes bold action, being a leader with a comprehensive plan, and someone who can bring the city together. That is why I'm running for mayor, and I'm looking forward to this forum. Great, thank you all so much. So as I said, we have a caller on the line with a question. So I'm going to bring them on. And so you are live on town meeting TV. Could you share your name, where you're from, and your question for all three candidates? My name is Bob Kiran. I live in downtown Burlington. Are you ready for my question? Yes. Two of the three candidates call for either enforcement or accountability for theft or crime, which is prison in Burlington. The question for all three is to please define in two or three sentences your differences in the level of policing of these issues here in Burlington. And thanks very much. Great, thank you, Bob. So we'll start with you, C.D., and you'll have one minute to answer that question. Well, I think that what we need right now in the state is a response from the state legislature to actually help our law enforcement people and our judiciary when it comes to theft. Right now they're handcuffed, in a sense, with the laws that they are on the books, as far as retail theft is concerned. And our judicial folks are also handicapped, in a sense, that judges are having records expunged for folks when they do certain levels of crime, which I understand maybe you want to shield for employers so that people do have a chance to get gainful employment. But we shouldn't block that information from judges so they're able to actually execute meaningful sentences for people when they continue to be repeat offenders. Thanks, Madison. Karen? Well, we all certainly know that the issue of retail theft is a major issue in Burlington. And one of the things in my public safety plan is to address retail theft, as well as what is going on in Burlington and has been going on in larger cities around the country, which is actually organized retail theft. We do need to have a process where repeat offenders are dealt with. And part of that, as C.D. has said, is on the state level. We can't do it all ourselves, but I think it has to be our priority, as well as one of the other challenges is trespass. And at the council meeting on the 11th of December, we'll be coming forward with changes to the trespass ordinance that will hopefully help downtown merchants, not only with trespass, but also with the theft that they have been plagued with lately. Thanks, Karen. Joan? So I may not have heard the question correctly. I thought it was about policing, was that the question? I heard that it was your differences in handling policing in the city, but I'm also paraphrasing there. OK, that's how I heard it. I think in terms of differences in how we handle policing, I voted no every time on decreasing the number of police officers in the city, and I supported our police department. And I think that that's a distinct difference, as well as stood up and vocally supported that, offered alternatives to decreasing the number of police. I also do agree with Madison in that we need to change some of our laws, because policing would be a lot more effective, not just around retail theft, but also with regards to recovery of property that is stolen. Our laws are actually different than those in New York, and the threshold for an officer to be able to recover that property is higher. I think that we should be working with groups like the Burlington Stolen Bike Recovery Group that's also recovering other property other than just bikes, because people are really victimized. When they're victims of property theft, it's not a victimless crime. And that's meaningful work that members of our community are willing to do, so I'd like to see them better connected with our police department. Great, thank you all. So we have another question from the phones, so I'm going to answer the phone here. So you are live on town meeting TV. Could you share your name, where you're from, and your question for all three candidates? Yes, my name is Jody Whalen. I'm calling from Burlington. And my question is about the police and the residents in Burlington and how we're living with an increase in crime and low police officer morale due to the Defund the Police movement. My question is, what message needs to come from political leadership to address the mistrust of the community and the police, along with the growing cracks in our social safety net? Great, thank you so much for your question, and we'll start with you, Karen, on that one. And maybe we'll take two minutes this time, because this is similar to one of the larger questions that we have, so two minutes on that, OK? So that is actually the first point in the public safety plan that I came forward with nearly a month ago. My public safety plan is a month by month with very specific plans to addressing public safety. And the first one was to do with the fact that we, as elected leaders, need to support our first responders and need to always be looking for ways to support them and also to expand their ranks. And that was in the October 10th drug crisis resolution. And since it didn't pass quite unanimously, but almost unanimously, one of the first things was to have a way to show our support not only for our first responders, but also to help them with recruitment and retention. And while it may seem like a small gesture, the chief of police and I had spoken about what can the city council do. And we came up with an idea for a photo of all of us with the mayor that will be used in recruitment and retention. And it will say, well, it's actually going to be used even not only for first responders, it's actually going to be used for the downtown merchants as well. And a sign of our support, and I think it's something that we need to be doing always in order not only for police, but for fire, for our community partners, for the street outreach team, for everyone. So that is certainly a first step. It's not everything, but it's a first step. Great. Thank you, Karen. We'll go to Joe next. Thank you. I think that there has been, since 2020, there's a significant rift between the police and the public, which I think those wounds are starting to heal. I definitely hear from people that they want to see more police officers on our street. And our really severe challenge is recruiting police officers to stay and recruiting police officers to come to Burlington. I just yesterday received the endorsement of the Burlington Police Officers Association. And I think that electing the person that they've chosen is a real message to them that they will be supported by leadership in the city. I also think that part of my plan is community policing. I think it's very important for officers to be out on the street, to know their community and for the community to know them. We lost that when we slashed the police force. And at the same time we did that, we cut things like creamy with a cop, that are exactly the kind of events that we want to establish a relationship between the community and the police. So I do think that there is a lot of work to be done there. And I hope I have the opportunity to do it. Thank you. Thanks, John. Madison, two minutes. I just want to state that I was opposed to the cut to our police department. And actually I was working with Mayor Weinberger to avert that. Unfortunately we failed. I agree with Councillor Shannon that we also need to understand that in 2020, the response to the murder of George Floyd, the state of Vermont actually lost 900 police officers. So this is bigger than the city of Burlington itself. 900 police officers chose to exit the profession. When it comes to community and police relationships in Burlington, one thing we need to expect is that when you call 911, you get a response. And so what we need is absolutely to have a rebuilding of trust between the police and the community and the community with the police. I hope that our police will take a good hard look at how they triage their calls and actually take every call. Because unfortunately for them and their response to police safety, they're losing data. They're losing information about what's happening in our towns and in our street. And when they take that call, that also helps our community to feel safe. That may actually help to lessen the vigilanteism that we're seeing in our street because people feel if I call, maybe someone won't come. So it's incumbent on the police to see what can they do to increase trust and partnership with the community. And it's also on the community to make sure we're doing our part because law enforcement folks should feel supported. And our community members who call 911 should feel that they will be taken care of. Police safety and public safety, I should say, is a community responsibility. And in this case, it's two communities of our police officers and our residents who really need to work together. And I agree that community policing is something that we should bring back. It needs to be a priority because right now when the firefighters come, people know they're here to help. I wanna have that same feeling for our police officers because I really value what they do because every day they choose to put themselves into harm's way. Thank you all so much. We are going to move to another question on the phones. So I'm going to put the next caller on. So you are live on town meeting TV. Can you share your name, where you're calling from and your question for all three candidates, please. All right, my name is Robert. I live in the New North and so I'm calling about something other than the police because there's more happening in Burlington than police. We have homeless people and we have wasted real estate. And so I'm asking what they think in general should be done about that. And then specifically, what do the candidates think should be done with the Memorial Auditorium with the Catholic Cathedral that exists between Pearl and Cherry Street and the Barge Canal Tract? What do they think should be done with that? And that's my question. Great, thank you so much for your question. Joan, we'll start with you on this one and we'll take two minutes. Thank you. I think with regards to people who are homeless, what I've asked for is an approach that is a combination of housing first and treatment first. For most people, housing is the first step to getting well and is really all that is, well it's not all that is needed but it's a very important first step. Not everybody who is living on our streets today will do well in that situation and a lot of people need treatment first and we need to look at individual situations. As far as the, we do have a number of vacant problems, vacant properties and they are very significant problems in our community. We have the YMCA, which is in the redevelopment process that I hope will be redeveloped soon. Memorial Auditorium, which I hope we will have a public-private partnership to move that forward. I would love to have saved Memorial Auditorium as the public asset that it is but we have tried several different ways over the course of time. We've gone before the voters, we haven't gotten the bonds that we need and at this point we don't have more bonding capacity to do that so I think a public-private partnership and preserving some public use of that building is the best that we can do and I support housing at the site of the church. Great, thank you Joan. Madison. I agree with Joan that Housing First is how we really deal with a lot of the societal ills that we have and in that Housing First approach, of course we should have wraparound services that help people to move from mental health, dealing with mental health issues, substance abuse disorder to recovery. Absolutely, that should be part of the answer. In talking about these buildings that aren't being developed that are a blight on our city, in a city where we have 1% occupancy rate, we should be building, absolutely. One thing that I think we should consider is a vacancy tax. We have one now but it's not being enforced and our vacancy tax should be at a significant enough rate to incentivize people to develop their property or sell to someone who will. So that's something I think that we should consider as a city also because we can't keep burning our people with extra and additional property taxes. As far as developing these properties that the caller mentioned, I agree, we should be doing it and one of the first that I would tackle is the archdiocese. We have the city center coming up, this is any place, it's going to be high density housing. This is a perfect property to also have high density housing and mixed urban use. Let's create community. Let's use this as a model opportunity to say how can we create community as since a belonging, a mixed urban space that's gonna serve all of our downtown and of course it's conveniently located to the bus station. It just makes perfect sense that Burlington embraced the fact that we are a city and let's start acting that way. Karen? Thank you. So I think probably one thing all three of us can agree on is housing first. It is hard to imagine being able to wake up in the morning and think about what else you're going to do for the day if you don't have a place to live. Struggling from day to day on something as basic as having shelter has a profound impact on people and it is clearly we need for there to be a housing first model. We also need, as you've said, as you've said is wraparound services. I mean, you can't expect people to live their best life if they don't have the tools in which to do that. And for those of us who have been fortunate to have been able to have done that very early in life, it is incumbent upon us as a society to help others. As far as the vacant buildings, I actually wrote the ordinance on vacant buildings and that is actually working in terms of many of the vacant buildings. We tend to focus on the large vacant buildings but there are a number of vacant buildings that are much, much smaller. And for those that actually the ordinance actually has been fairly effective. As far as the developments, I do believe that we are well on our way with the YMCA to being able to, or the former YMCA and I believe that that will be underway in 2024 as far as Memorial Auditorium. Joan is right, I've sort of lost track of the number of times that we have tried to redevelop Memorial Auditorium and I thought we had a really good thing going with the last one but it just didn't work. And at this point, really until probably 2030 we are not gonna have the bonding capacity in staying within our debt limits to be able to do that work ourselves. I've always been a believer that if you want people to do big jobs in the city of Burlington, it's wonderful when you can get local people to do it. And that will be the case with this letter of intent that we've signed on Memorial Auditorium. So I'm very optimistic about that. Thank you all. We do have another question on the phones. So I'm going to hear this question. So you are live on town meeting TV. Can you share your name, where you're from and your question for all three candidates? My name is Michael Long. I've been living in Burlington for nearly 50 years now and Burlington is in worse shape than it has been in all the years I've been here. My question for the candidates is how will you provide the change, the bold, innovative and effective leadership that's been sorely lacking and is desperately needed now, especially if you have been a key player in the Democratic leadership machinery over the last 12 years or more? Great, thank you, Michael. I'll start with you at Madison on this question and we'll take one minute on this one. When you call 911, you should expect a response and when you elect a mayor, you should expect a leader who will be accountable and who will carefully consider the unintended consequences and potential harm of their actions. Whether that's voting as one of my opponents did to close Sears Lane without housing the people who were displaced or voting as my other opponent did to defund the police without full consideration of how law enforcement might respond to an expression of the loss of community trust and support. As mayor, I would usher in a collaborative response to public safety that focuses on the roots of harm and violence and which empowers our police, firefighters, social services, healthcare providers and community partners to work in concert to address homelessness, mental health and substance abuse disorders and a balanced approach of law enforcement and harm reduction. And I'll tell you one other thing I would do. I would speak the truth that when things like this happen, we have to actually say, how did we get here? And it's not about shame or blame. If we don't actually recognize the steps that got us to where we are, how do we even think we're going to start healing ourselves and recovering? This is just a matter of leadership style and also being honest and transparent with ourselves. Up next I'm trying to keep track of your Joan. I think is our, let me double check. No, I'm sorry, it's Karen. It's Jack, we'll put Karen you're next. So I think that what we need is a clear vision. We need a plan. We need to build consensus. We need to collaborate with one another. If we're gonna make progress on public safety. And I firmly believe that we can do that. Changing perceptions, addressing homelessness, crime, drug use will require many solutions. There is no blanket solutions because we're talking about people. These are not night numbers on a spreadsheet. The answer is very nuanced. And I do think that these are all within our reach if we can work together. And I would consider this also not only as a city but also as a county. I know that there are times where municipalities within Chittenden County are almost working against one another and we can't continue to do that. As well as a statewide approach and having a coordinated effort that harnesses all this resources. I do think that obviously of course we have to take responsibility for what we have done and how we have gotten ourselves here. But I think we also need to take notice of the fact of who has been helping and how we have been helping ourselves get out of the challenges that we have. I have a proven track record of doing a lot of that work. Don't have enough time in two minutes to go into it. I would also notice and note that the city council never defunded the police. They decreased the headcount. However, the money for policing was always there. It was always in the budget. It was always available. And that was the budget that we passed. So it's a misnomer to say that. I just want to clarify that. Thanks. Karen, Joan. And you can have about 90 seconds here because other folks, yeah. About 90 seconds on this question. I just want to clarify. It is not true that we closed Sears Lane without giving people housing. Every person in Sears Lane was offered housing. Most gladly took it. And there were a few who did not. There were some people who wanted to continue businesses involving drug dealing and theft that would be difficult to do from a hotel or other housing. But one difference between myself and the mayor would be, I would say I would have taken that action sooner, not waited until it was such a large encampment. I think that that's dangerous. The policy that was pursued eventually could have been pursued earlier. And it is a policy that has been approved and developed in collaboration with the ACLU. People who are living on our streets need help. It is not kind to allow them to continue living on the streets with addiction and mental health illnesses. They need help. And we should be trying to get them help. This is a state problem. Many people living on our streets are not from Burlington. They're from across the state. We need partners. And cities across America need help as well as cities in Vermont. So I would be looking to the state legislature. We cannot solve homelessness from inside the walls of Burlington. Yeah, 30 seconds, Karen. It's just rather quickly. I just wanted to also say when it comes to the issues of Sears Lane that Joan is absolutely right. Everyone was given, was worked with individually to find a housing alternative. And in my opinion, what was going on at Sears Lane was not really about living. It was about subsisting and it was not healthy. It was not in anyone who was living there in their best interest. And we as a community should not, that is not compassionate. And I supported what happened at Sears Lane. I think sometimes when you're not serving and making those incredibly challenging decisions, it sometimes is very easy to say after the fact. But while that was going on, that was not a healthy situation. And the best outcome was the outcome that we saw it and the outcome that was achieved. Thanks, Karen. So we have another question from the phone line. So I'm going to take that question now. You are live on town meeting TV. Can you share your name, where you're calling from and your question for all three candidates? Hello, hi. My name is Karen Sita. I do have my, I'm coming from the capital, but Vermont, Burlington is home. My question to all women, although I have my favorites for me, the best women win. Often women are elected. They may not receive the same hiring opportunities based on their potential as men do. For instance, our current mayor was hired because of his potential. He'd been a graduate, a student from the Harvard Kennedy School, but clearly his potential did not yield to desired results. My question to you is, it's elected. What advice do you have for young girls who aspire for power considering that potential may not always be a determining factor for their success? Great. Thank you so much for your question. And we'll start with you, Karen, on this question. I'm not, I'm not sure exactly what she means by that in terms of just younger women or exactly, but I'll try to, I'll try to answer the question. So, you know, I think that representation matters. Burlington has been around for over 150 years. We have not had a woman mayor. And I think that it's great that we have a, there's probably little likelihood that the next mayor of Burlington is not going to be a woman. So, you know, I think that sends a strong and powerful message. And I've seen that in the, in the meetings that I've had, particularly with young, with families. And people are really excited about that. I think that that is incredibly important and will be one more milestone, just as we had a woman governor. You know, I'm actually amazed that we've had only one woman governor. Hopefully there will be more in our future. But also just simply women in the workplace being able to achieve higher levels of, of, you know, in being promoted and being acknowledged for the work that they do. So, I'm excited about that. And, and certainly hope that whichever, whoever is the next woman mayor, that that will be the first, but certainly not the last. Thanks Karen, Joan. Thank you. That's a great question. I am actually one of five girls, five sisters. And which is an interesting dynamic because there is no division of labor according to gender or sex when it's just all girls. And I'm the mother of a daughter. And yet, and I think I was, I was brought up in a way that I just never really thought there were limitations because of my gender. But at the same times, I think that I would advise young girls to check in with themselves about the same things that I am checking in with myself at this moment. I know that somebody shared once with me a statistic that if a man is interviewed in a job about his proficiency in a certain area, he needs about a 20% proficiency to answer, yes, I am proficient in that. And a woman needs about an 80% proficiency to answer that question, yes. And for women to overcome our own doubts and I feel it in myself, I think people looking at me would say, Joan, you are profoundly qualified to me, the mayor of Burlington. And yet I still find myself with some self-doubt and I think overcoming those doubts that we often naturally feel as women and putting ourselves out there is part of overcoming that because we should not be our own glass ceiling. Thank you, Joan. Madison. I wanna say to all the young women out there, you can do anything, anything is possible. Too often we think we have to have that next degree, that next job, that next level before we even aspire to jump higher. And the truth of the matter is, as Joan has said, men just do it. So why do we wait? Don't wait. We are powerful. You are incredibly powerful women out there and young people. And don't be afraid to be the only you in the room. I'll tell you as a biracial black gay woman, I am often the only me in the room. You can see that here today. And that's okay. Because you just have to show up of yourself, as yourself, own your power, own your courage, own everything about yourself, be your own best cheerleader. Because I promise you, for every failure, you're gonna have an even better success. Every time you fall, you're gonna learn something and you're gonna get yourself back up and you're gonna be able to achieve. You are your own best cheerleader. You are your own best vision. So just own it. Thank you all for that. We have another caller. Gonna try and take their call. So you're live on town meeting TV. Can you share your name, where you're calling from and your question for all three candidates? Hello? Hi, you're live on town meeting TV. Can you share your name, where you're calling from and your question for all three candidates? Oh, sure, sorry. Hi, my name's Colin Larson. I'm calling from Burlington. So here's my question. So recently we learned that the Main Streets Great Streets Project will only initially be half of what was planned due to inflation of cost. Since 2017, Burlington has had a lot of trouble making progress on our walk bike plan that we need to, given that we will need more housing but we also have a statutory responsibility to reduce carbon emissions from transportations. So how would each of the candidates use the office of the mayor to advance our walk bike plan? Thank you so much. And we'll start with Joan on this one, I think, right? Great. I think that the walk bike plan, I bike a lot myself. I am a commuter biker, though I'll admit I'm a fair weather commuter biker. I did not bike here today. And I think that the important thing about our walk bike plan is creating the interconnectivity across the city so that we can navigate where we want to go. And there are some things in the plan that, for example, we created a bike lane on South Winooski Avenue that I strongly supported even though some people were telling us it was gonna be disastrous how the traffic patterns that would be required to do that. And to me, that was as somebody, you could not really bike on South Winooski Avenue prior to us putting the bike lanes in there. And then we have this area here where we are today on North Winooski Avenue where the plan called for removing the parking here on North Winooski Avenue and this is parking that serves the community health center, the businesses here, even CCTV itself. And I would have supported an alternative to exactly what was in the walk bike plan that took into account the fact that we were hearing from the immigrant representative at the community health center that this was going to really be problematic for them. So I support trying to work through those issues collaboratively in each area as we go through because the devil is in the details and the community needs to be included in those plans as we move forward on the granular level. Madison? I'm gonna absolutely agree with Joan when she talks about including the community in a walk bike plan because in everything that we do, we have to make sure that we're talking to the people who are going to be served by this and that we actually take their needs into account instead of making assumptions. Get everybody into the room. One thing I would also encourage our city to do and this really corresponds with anything that we do as a city is to reach out to other communities who've already been doing the work and let's learn from them. For example, in DC, they have an incredible walk bike and parking solution as to how they make their city more walkable, more bikeable, more nontraditional transportation and of course we'd want to involve our people here, our experts here on the ground as well but we can learn Burlington from other communities as to how to do things better. I think that it's just incumbent on us to do that instead of thinking that sometimes all of the answers have to come from ourselves. So remember to look up. That's how I call it. Remember to look up. Thanks Madison, Karen. Thanks. First of all, when it comes to the Main Street, Great Streets, we'd actually just voted on that and it was, I don't think that any of us were happy about voting on a reduced project. The costs were substantial and there is always the hope and I believe that we will find a way to continue with that project and do the remaining streets. We also came up with a plan that hopefully will make it as least disruptive as possible. Construction always has, it's always got its shortcomings in terms of the fact that it creates up evil but I think as far as the walk bike plan, I mean that was founded on the idea of connectivity and we are still working and still struggling with that. There are cities, actually not even just cities in this country but also cities around the world that have made that a priority. I very much remember when we had a city councilor who came here from Iceland, who came here from Reykjavik and they have done amazing work with connectivity and biking and as well walking too. I mean, I do bike a lot but I actually am a big walker and I think having and making sure that we have safe and solid sidewalks is also an incredible priority and something that our city should prioritize so that people can get out of their cars and feel comfortable walking. Thank you all. It looks like we'll probably have time for one more question and it will be from the phones and then we'll go to our closing statements. So I'm gonna pick up the phone here and welcome our next caller to town meeting TV. Can you share your name, where you're calling from and your question for all three candidates, please? Sure, my name is Pat Rivers. I live on Locust Terrace in Burlington and my question's about housing. It seems like we have built, we are building, we are planning to build a lot more housing, many hundreds of units but overwhelmingly these units are rental units and I'm wondering with rents being as high as they are, how are people ever gonna be able to afford to buy something? How can we offer some condo units? That's my question. Great, thank you so much, Patricia. So Madison, we'll start with you and we'll just have a minute each to answer this question. Yes, so yes, we are building and I did mention the vacancy tax which is to incentivize people to build. I think we should also have a occupancy tax as well which that takes housing out of our supply when you have someone who's only a part-time resident. When we think about economics 101, it's supply and demand. We do need to build more housing. We also have to be mindful about how we structure that housing and this is when we can have a public-private partnerships. More partnerships with perhaps the Champlain Housing Trust. I know you're speaking specifically about being able to purchase but it is a supply and demand issue. Imagine if we worked with the Champlain Housing Trust to create rental opportunities that are co-ops where you could also rent to buy. This is where we need to be more innovative about the solutions that we're looking towards and involving community partners and private partners all as well to see how we can work collectively together to bring down housing costs while also increasing our supply. Thank you so much, Madison. Karen. Thanks. So there's a couple of things that are going on. Certainly, CHT has done amazing work and they do have a plan for home ownership that I think is sort of on the model of pay it forward and I think it works and has been incredibly successful. But there are two other things that are going on in the city. One is the development of condos at Cambrian Rise. I think one of the biggest challenges unfortunately with condos is financing. It's very difficult to get financing. It's complicated, but effectively you need to have pre-sold so many that it can become a real impediment, particularly when you're dealing with a certain market demographic. But also I think and certainly and why I'm supportive of a new code that will be coming to the city council in January called the Neighborhood Code, which I hope will create more and potentially more cottage style homes that will be more affordable so that people can achieve the dream of home ownership, which I think many people want to. There are lots of people, there's particularly younger people who do actually want to rent and we do have and we will have many rental opportunities and in the city in the coming years, but when it comes to home ownership, we do need to prioritize that particularly making loans available to people that have been historically marginalized and have had more challenges than most in achieving that dream. Thank you, Karen. Joan. Thank you. I appreciate that question as a realtor. I see how owning a home really stabilizes a family's finances and when we have, we now have a city that's 70% renter, 30% owner occupied and that's not healthy for the community but most importantly, it isn't healthy, it's not financially healthy for people who are unable to buy their own home. Their rents can go up year after year. Even if we had some kind of rent stabilization, it still would allow those rents to go up and create kind of a society of the haves and the haves have nots. So I think we need to, the kind of housing that we develop can determine whether or not it's owner occupied. That's one of the things that we're looking at in the neighborhood code. Haven't heard a really good solution to that. Karen is right that it is financing that prevents housing from being developed as owner occupied when you have to pre-sell 50% of the project if it's owner occupied and you don't have to do that if it's rental. It's much easier for developers to build rental housing. I do know in the South End Innovation District it is a goal of the developers on that project to have some owner occupancy, to have rent-to-own situations, which are really, I have not seen them in my experience, rent-to-own projects, but I'm interested to see what they come up with there and Champlain Housing Trust also does have a national model for limited equity housing that could be advanced and in partnership with the city. I think the city needs to be looking at how do we partner with developers to assure that we get more owner occupied housing. Thank you, thank you so much, John. So now we're already over time, so really quickly we'll have 30 seconds for closing statements and we'll start with you, Karen. Okay, so on December 10th, caucus-goers are gonna have an important decision to make. This is a pivotal time for our city. I believe that we need a mayor who has the professional background and the deep connections, the demeanor and the skills to not only bring people together, but also the ability to make challenging decisions and move our city forward. A leader that can hit the ground running on day one. I hope that you'll take a moment to visit my website, which is Karenpaulbtv.com and review my comprehensive three-year plan for public safety. I hope to earn your vote and your confidence to become Burlington's next mayor. Thank you so much. Thank you, Karen. Joan, your closing statement. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that we are going to be electing, it looks like the next woman mayor and I'm proud to be sitting with these women. You can go to my website to get more information, which is Joanformayor.com. My public safety plan is about deterrence, treatment, housing and justice. I think the most important quality in the next mayor is leadership and a willingness to come forward to tell the public where you are and to make decisions collaboratively and bring the resources of our community together in order to make the very difficult decisions that we need to make going forward. Great. Thank you, Joan. And Madison, your closing statement. Thank you so much. Do you feel safer than three years ago? Does this feel like a vibrant, prosperous downtown? Are you proud of and connected to your community? I want everyone asking themselves these questions three years from now and saying, yes, I do feel safer. Yes, I do feel like I could afford to buy a home or rent an apartment. Three years isn't a long time for these big questions, but it's enough time to change direction. Burlington, it's time for something new. I'm asking for your vote. Join me, go to Madisonformayor.com, learn all about me, be curious, get to know me and take a chance on someone new. Great. Thank you, Madison. Thank you to all three of you for joining us for this forum tonight. We really appreciate it. And thank you for tuning into Town Meeting TV's ongoing coverage of local candidates, local budgets, and ballot items. You can find this forum and many more to come at ch17.tv. And don't forget that you can vote on Sunday, December 10th at the Burlington Democrats Town Meeting Day nominating caucus. Voting will be held virtually, with limited in-person voting for those who need it. And you can find more information and register for that caucus at btvdems.org. Thank you so much for watching and sharing Town Meeting TV and for subscribing to our YouTube channel if you haven't already. Thanks so much. Good night.