 Podcast is round table, round 155, I think. Dave, we should check on that. Podcast subscriptions, but Ray, you say, we've always subscribed to podcast. Oh, not anymore, or it's different, whatever. Who knows what's going on? Does it matter? We're gonna find out. Let's meet the round table. It's not very round. Effie, welcome back. Hey, thanks for inviting me, guys. I'm super happy to be here. You have a big, what's your podcast? You have a big poster back there, but because of StreamYard cutting us off, I can't help. I thought I'd bring it today. My name's Effie Parks. I hosted a podcast called Once Upon a Gene. It's a podcast for families who are raising kids with rare diseases, where I share personal stories through their rare disease journey and resources. Very cool, I like that branding. It's a very 70s TV show. Totally. It's a play on, wait, the genie. What was the genie show? My dream of genie. Genie. That's what it reminds me of. Anyways, very cool, welcome back. Thank you. Effie's been here before, and new round table has not been here before. Brian, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. What's your podcast? It's Sounds Profitable, and it's all about breaking down podcast advertising technology and making it accessible to everyone. And he tells me the newsletter is better. Way better, way better. Subscribe to that first. How about fake podcaster? You say that, and I don't know if you've published, I think you're a podcaster. I think it counts. There we go, there we go. I think it matters more about if you keep publishing than if you did once or twice. That might be a fake podcast. Well, then I doubled it, so I'm doing pretty good then. All right, right on. All right, returning round tableer Paul, welcome back. I'm just here for the shirt, man. I'm just here for the shirt. I know. What's your show, Paul? The podcast report, like right there, yeah. Yep, at thepodcastsport.com. The audio only crowd, we covered both. Yeah, you know. You said podcast report, and you've got the banner back there. For the video crowd, which youtube.com slash podcasters round table, if you've ever wondered what we look like, then you quickly want to run away, which is understandable. You understand the power of audio at that point. That's right. We'll go back to your audio and you'll be much happier. Co-host Dave Jackson, welcome back. Ray, glad to be here. Dave Jackson from theschoolofpodcasting.com. I have no idea what that's about by the name. No, and you can actually tell it's laundry day because I'm wearing my own shirt, which seems like a wrong thing to be doing. You're that guy. As a former musician, it's also funny. You're that guy. All right, let's get into what we're talking about. So before we go any deeper, I kind of told everyone that I'm trying to avoid the conversation about podcast subscription. So if you, the tech, the process, the how it works, the nuts and bolts, if you haven't heard Apple released podcast subscriptions, this is a basically premium content on their platform, Apple podcast, Spotify. Also, like within the same amount of time is doing also their version. So this has been covered really well, pod news and different places and we'll probably provide you with some links that you can go and read like, how do I get involved? How is it working out? Not so well right now. But all of those things, not so much interested in that. It's gonna be hopefully resolved. Any problems they're having, they're probably gonna change all within like a month or something. So what I'm hoping to do is that we have a conversation that's more about what it means for you as a podcaster more likely than not an independent podcaster, smaller podcaster, however you wanted to find that. It's always a tricky one here. But what it means for potential monetization for your show, if you're interested in that, we'll talk about our audiences being divided because there's an issue there as well as who owns your audience. We've always been sort of this open ecosystem of podcasts and RSS changing a little bit if you get involved here. So those are the things we're gonna talk about, things that are gonna matter more for the future of your podcast. So I don't know, quickly, Paul, you wanna tell us, I kind of mentioned what, podcast subscription in Apple, Apple podcast, what's it called? It's podcast subscription. Yeah, yeah, that's what they're calling it. Part of it was, part of it was subscriptions, four days ago we're free or a week ago we're free. Now subscriptions are paid following is free to use the Apple nomenclature. And of course everybody has a different word for it. It's funny because we've always had this background conversation of, oh, the name podcast should change, right? Like it should be whatever back in the day. It was Netcast with Leo, all these things. And pretty much be like, that's not never happening because places like ESPN and all these big places use podcast and it's taken us this long to be recognized for the word, right? Most people know what a podcast is these days. I did not expect that subscribe to my podcast was gonna, was that the thing that was gonna change? Neither did I. Right, Brian, so now we need to follow your podcast. So if anyone's confused, if their Apple is just changing subscribe to follow and Dave they're doing this because subscribe implies money. I mean, you know what, to be honest with you at work I've always had in parentheses around subscription free because the audience we go to actually probably see subscription. They're used to that being something they pay for. So does that, this is why Apple is changing the terminology I'm guessing? That's what they were saying, that it was somehow, even though it's not confusing on YouTube, apparently podcasters just can't handle the phrase subscribe and so they have changed it to follow. And it's interesting because Spotify, which predominantly music to start, you would follow an artist, you would follow an album. And in podcasting they brought that over and I believe it's always been follow on Spotify. And so that was one of the big confusing points. Apple doesn't tend to like follow along to say that poorly with other method, like with other nameset changes, but they did with this one. And I think it really showed the differences between it, but the YouTube one's a great example. Like it doesn't make sense, YouTube has been able to separate that and people understand it even with YouTube's new or YouTube red or whatever which you can pay for. Yeah, if YouTube switches it, I don't know what all these people are gonna do with the smash, the subscribe button. Lot of reactions. Smash that follow button. But Effie, do you, and I feel like I've already violated the whole thing I talked about. Now I'm talking about the, but I feel like we need some background or what's going on in case people don't know. Effie, are you aware of this? Are you going to now tell people to follow your podcast? I mean, are we only talking to, are we changing everything at that point for one audience, the Apple audience? I think for now it's simply for the Apple audience. I don't think that it will stay that way. I mean, at least I hope not, right? Like I hope Apple branches out further than Apple of what they're doing, but I think for now, at least everyone who's in the podcast world is gonna know that terminology. I think this was perhaps for maybe all the newcomers that are now like getting hip to the fact that podcasts are super cool and they're really informative and there's big communities out there who have maybe never been a part of the podcast world that that terminology will just start fresh with them. Yeah, and so, all right. So we established that podcast subscriptions on a whole, I believe Spotify and Apple, it's about premium content, right? This is these platforms way of podcasters being able to put premium content on their platform which is huge for Apple because haven't we been talking about this forever or hoping they would do something like this or it's a big shift when Apple tends to just sort of stay out of the way. I know some people will call that being lazy or not updating anything they've ever done in the last 15 years, but I am curious for podcasters for podcasters not doing premium, do you think that this is, if you're out there and you're watching this right now and you don't have a premium offering, does this help? Does this push you into premium offering? I guess, Effie, are you doing premium with your podcast at all? No, I'm waiting. I was in a clubhouse room when this news broke and then everyone immediately went and signed up and then most of the people in the room immediately lost a few episodes. So I was like, I'm gonna wait until this is fully finished or it's like properly launched in May or whatever. So you wanna get it. So you're not doing it now but you do think you're gonna get involved? I'm not sure, right? I'm not sure yet. I think that it's really interesting and I think there's a lot of pros but there's also a lot of cons that I'm just not ready to jump in head first for. Also like we're small indie podcasts and I don't think we're necessarily gonna be promoted. We're still gonna have to do all the work that we're doing now. So I don't know, I think I'm gonna wait it out and kind of see how it unfolds for everyone. Because it's a lot of extra work if you do want to share that, right? And we're busy. Do you monetize in any other way currently? I'm just in the beginning stages of that actually. So within the next couple of months, it's gonna be on my books. And Brian, are you, what's monetization look like for your podcast? Yeah, so I mean, everything I do is writing about and talking about advertising and advertising technology. So actually a few weeks back, I set up with Supercast, my own premium feed and I challenged the idea that premium has to be ad-free and then it has to cost. And so what I did and said was I used it to allow the listeners to curate what they wanna listen to. I have my interviews. I have me narrating my articles and then I have another feed that combines both of them. And so I just tried it out as a way to let them pick how they wanna consume my content and I eat the cost. With Apple and the things that are going on there, what I really like about it and what I really wanna challenge people, especially early on in this conversation is that premium doesn't necessarily mean more. It doesn't mean ad-free. I think that there are a surprising number of people that will latch onto your podcast and just be like, hey, oh, you have a buy me a coffee link. You have a Patreon, I'll pay for that. So if you do even just one bonus episode where it's just like, hey, thank you. We're busting our butt. There's not a ton of extra content here but what this is is another option for you to frictionlessly help us out. And you can give them a seven day free trial, month free trial or whatever you want and they get to experience that right there and see that there's no additional content but they can just pay if they wanna support you and that's the type of thinking I really wanna challenge people to because Effy's completely right, creating additional content to put behind a paywall, even just the management process of setting it up. It's a lot of work when you have to do it separately for Apple and then Spotify in your own private feed but I don't think it hurts anyone to have that button and have that free trial in the end of the day at just being like, there's nothing extra, there's nothing special. This is just if you really feel that this podcast reaches out to you, consider subscribing. And so that's the type of thing I'll play around with. Yeah, Paul, you're essentially a co-host here. What do you think about that? Well, I mean, PBS does that. You can pay for PBS and get it ad free or you can get PBS ad free. And so the model exists and one of the biggest issues in all of this is still friction. That's why like buy me a coffee makes so much sense is because all right, I'll get five bucks. I'll give 10 bucks once off. Those paradigms really need to be easy and so Apple making the ability to support a podcast as easy as the ability to buy a 99 cent app or that kind of thing is really doable. So yeah, and then the idea that people, you don't have to have commercials if you're paying, well, Hulu, you could pay $6.99 a month to Hulu and get as many commercials as you want. So yeah, I think, I think he's right on. I did that. And I think the model exists. I did the Hulu thing. There was definitely like a time when I started Sounds Prop Roll where I was like, hey, we gotta cut the budget back and made it through three out of the four commercials in that block before I was like, stop it, upgrade, I'm over it. But you're right. I mean, I think that the coolest part here is that premium and subscription are undefined. We're gonna see some giants come up with some really mainstream things. And then we need to remember that podcasting is weird and different and as creative and interesting as you want and your audience, you know them. So just kind of, you know, try things, right? Like, if you put something up and it stinks, you can just apologize. You say, hey, I tried it, didn't work. Sorry, those ads were terrible, but you know, thanks for the feedback, I've removed them. And you probably gain more goodwill by just owning it and trying something new than just letting it pass you by and complaining about it. I do think that what you're saying, Brian, is it's really key to other people are doing this. So don't be weird that you're the first one on this. HBO announced this morning that there's gonna be a $10 ad version of HBO. And HBO was the one who this year was giving us movies the day they're in the movie theater. You know, so this model commercials, gone free, PBS, Hulu, let's make it ours. Yeah, and the advantage to that is the fact that I always love when I get a big marketer that starts a podcast and they're like, great, where do I get the email address of my subscribers? And you go, yeah, that's not happening. They're like, what? So with Brian's model, whether it's super cast or glow, there's a few out there. You can now see who your audience is. And that just kind of goes back. If we wanna really date ourselves, the Beatles used to have a fan club and the fan club would get a 45 at Christmas time. It was bonus content that they went. And of course, that was via that mail because well, yeah, it was the Beatles. But it's a matter of, here's something now. You have your die-hard fans are in one giant crown now and you can just throw gas on them and get them going to go tell the world. That's a good way to put it. That's a good way to put it. So ad-free, one stat that I really like to share that I think is interesting is that a podcast that releases every week and has six ad slots and sells for $50 CPM per ad slot, 100% fill rate. So we're talking pure fantasy at this point. Kudos to the few that are accomplishing it, but it's just not accessible. That's like per person listening. It's $16 something. The math is somewhere around $16. They earn you a year, right? So we keep talking about these subscriptions. We talk about $5 or $10 or more a month for these things. We need to remember that you could be everybody's fourth favorite podcast and they're just only gonna subscribe to three. So play around with the pricing models. Play around with ad-free, play around with other content but making sure it's stuff that you can handle and do. And Dave, like you said there, that's the model of using subscriptions outside of Apple, outside of Spotify is gonna be the only way to capture their email and like the information directly to yourself. I'm running a podcast format upfront called the Upnext and that's coming out on May 10th and it's going to be an unlisted RSS feed with 20 different seasons, one per publisher and the way we're distributing it is through a premium feed and it's free, but all you have to do is give your information like you're signing up for an event. And so I think we're gonna seek clever ways to use podcasting as marketing tools and lead generation tools, not just on the episode content, educating people and driving them there, but on the, okay, well I'll trade you this feed in exchange for your information. How are you doing that? What platform are you doing that? Yeah, so I partnered with Supercast that came on as a sponsor but Dave's right, supporting cast, glow. There are a lot of really cool, memberful I think you can do your own through that like the advanced version of Patreon. And so basically what is one? Lips and, well, glow, they just bought glow, right? ACAS, yeah, everybody's got this neat idea and so it's a landing page and it's just like if you fill out this info I'll give you your own unique RSS feed. A lot of the tools give you the ability to block that feed if it looks like they're sharing it with multiple people, but more than anything it's just, they're unlisted feeds and sharing access to it, which unfortunately means that people in Spotify can't get access to them, but that's why Spotify is doing what they're doing with Anchor. What is the special offer that Apple is providing here with subscriptions then? It's this, the last time here in McDonald's, at least I was and I had to go like this and grab my wallet out of my back pocket and get the card and the guy in front of me just went out the window and went with his phone. Just touch this thing with his phone and he was done and I was like, is it really that easy with Apple Pay? And it made me think, huh, maybe I need to look into this Apple Pay thing. Not that it's that hard to pull a credit card out of my wallet, but that to me was I went, oh, they're gonna make this like stupid easy now to subscribe. I think it's the button in the app. I think that that's what it really is is that when you're listening to the podcast you can see right there that there's the premium, you can start the trial, you can pay right there because Dave's right, they made it so easy that even on web, you can use Apple Pay and you can still take advantage of all of those features of only sharing your payment information in a specific way and letting Apple mask all of it. So Apple Pay made it easy for any purchases on iOS, but I really think the big deal is that that like subscribe button to pay is in the app right next to your cool content and it'll show like here's your latest free episode and here's like the four blocked episodes. Kind of like how Patreon does where it like graze it out so they can kind of get a feeling of what they're gonna see or that there is content there. And so we'll give them that FOMO to instantly pick it right then and there. And now there are things like Patreon which I have tried, anyone else jump in? I was subscribed to your show, Ray. The email that said stop paying Ray, he's not giving you any more content. I actually forced to stop paying you. I wish that you should because I'm about to shut it off, but I actually have been pausing the payments and I don't know if Patreon lets you know that but I for months now have not been charging people because I'm not putting stuff in that feed. And it was more experimental to be able to do this and say, this is what you can do for someone who's gonna really go after it. And I did put some premium content down that feed and those really long form interviews were really good and they're still sort of trapped back there. I may resurface them, but I'm curious. So for me, it was more experimental. It was so that we could help podcasters sort of navigate this whole premium idea and at the time, Patreon, when they launched seemed to me to be a decent option, but again, a lot of friction, right? You gotta take you off of this platform and go somewhere else. And as a producer, it didn't work for me because it's more content and I'm barely keeping up with the content that I've already told you I'm gonna put out anyways, right? And I knew that going in but has anyone else leaned in and found premium to work? What are you doing? Dave, did you, you have a Patreon probably, right? Yeah, I have one for my show, Ask the Podcast Coach. So what I do, it's me and my co-host. We do 90 minutes, the first 60 are free, the last 30. If you're there live, obviously you hear it, but we take the last half hour out and we put it into Patreon. And then if you do $20 a month, you get a shout out in the episode. If it's $10 a month, you get a link on the website. If you get $5 a month, you get my endless love. How is all that working out though because you're doing a lot more than you were doing? It is a lot, because you end up doing two podcasts. Is it worth it? There are times when I go, I would really like to be out in the, I think I'm making somewhere around three to 400 bucks a month. So it's not bad, yeah. Is it more for the community building than it is for what you're making through Patreon? No, it's cash, Dave. Go ahead, I see your book. Do you get a lot of the community from it? Do you get that engagement a lot from Patreon? No, not really. Not compared to the Facebook group for the school of podcasting. I do things on Patreon, but like on a rare blue moon, I will have somebody leave a comment on the patron only post. I don't get a lot of engagement on Patreon, which I mean, people, when they sign up, they're like, I love your show, thanks so much. Enjoy your five bucks, whatever kind of thing. But I've tried polls and things like that over there. Dave, do you think that they're signing up as a thank you or actually for the content? Yeah, there are three types of patrons. I just want you to do your art, man. And then there's the person that wants more. I want more of you. And then the third type of person is, I wanna somehow be involved with the show, whether that's giving you ideas, being on the show. There are different levels that I see people do, but I think a lot of them is, they just like, look, I've listened to all your shows, I have to give you something back kind of thing. FAU alluded to the fact that you're waiting and also said that it's more, right? But what about what Brian has talked about where it doesn't have to be more? And I really like the idea of, I mean, I've always been excited for people much younger than me to get into podcasting and do stuff that they didn't grow up seeing be done on TV and radio because we're just copying stuff as podcasters for the old podcasters, right? And so please break the model, like do something weird with it, but does that, what do you think about that? Like what's holding you back or what are you like employing one of these sort of premium options? I guess nothing is, nothing hard is really holding me back. Like it's not that I'm on trusting or anything or think there's a conspiracy behind it. I do wonder like, what if this doesn't work out and all of those people that you don't know because you don't have any of their data, you don't have their emails, you don't know who's necessarily subscribing on Apple, how do you tell them where you are now? I mean, I guess in your podcast episodes, you always announce like, come to my website, come join my newsletter, find me on Instagram, like that's one way to get them and make sure they come with you. But the middleman stuff kind of, it's kind of a bummer. It's kind of a bummer that Apple becomes, you're the content creator, but they're the ones selling it, not you. So it's your business being sold by Apple and you're kind of giving that away when you're the creator of everything. So it's not that I don't think it's awesome. Like Brian said, it's just another thing that you can put on there and drive people to your podcast or introduce new audiences. But they're just, I think I'm just waiting until it's all finished and I see how my nerdy podcast friends like it and I'll probably sign up for it. I mean, it's 20 bucks a year, it's not that big of a deal in podcast land. But there are just kind of some things about it where I'm like, darn, we do a lot of work as podcasters to make our show, to build our business and we're kind of giving some of that away, in a way. There's a couple of different things that are going on here where Spotify, I believe, is not charging until like 2023 or something, whereas Apple is getting, you gotta pay 20 bucks. But then there's this whole idea of, yes, and then they take a percentage and then there's this, you could go with like a memorable thing or memberful, is that what it's called? It's a plug-in, right? You're essentially in charge of being like, you're sort of back in team more. So then if you were Apple, they're giving you a team, right? So there's all these arguments, like I wish they didn't take some, Spotify is taking some, whatever, right? And you choose where to go. And I don't know if that's, I don't know how that's gonna affect people. I think that, you know, the first time I agree with everybody, these apps have told you that it's not your audience, it's theirs. And that's the worst part of all this, right? That really bothers me that it's like, chicken and egg, what launched the success, the podcast or the platform? And I really think the podcast or made it, you know, you pull off NPR, you pull off some of these big names and maybe podcasting doesn't become as popular on their app. I think that the big thing is that the people that will find the subscriptions in these apps and not give you their information, we're never gonna give you their info. They're not signed up on your mailing list already. They might not have paid in any other way. But what's really neat that I like about it is, Apple went through years of telling people in the app store, hey, if it's 10 bucks on our site and we're taking 30% of it, you can't sell it for $7 on your site directly. It has to be the same price. So for apps and subscriptions and stuff, that was a big issue for a long time. And I believe that that's no longer the case. And so what that means is I can be like, hey, Apple podcast, subscribe here, super don't, 30 day trial, it's $500. But if you come over to my supercast link, it's two bucks a month. And you could absolutely do that just to pull people over and be like, this is the type of content that you're gonna experience. But please seriously, I'll give you a $498 discount to just give me your name and email address. But Evie, I actually, I think it's really interesting. What you've explained about your podcast, I can't imagine that there's really any content that you want to get, right? Like it's about connecting and helping people that are in these really tough situations and making them feel whole on that. And so when you get into that, like subscriptions, like how, yeah, I mean, I guess like what are your thoughts on that end there? Because there is some, there's so much great content out there that just providing it for free. People want to help you. They wanna donate. They want to buy specific advertisements because it resonates with them. But like subscription on that. I'm like, what would you put in there? So let's see if I understand your question. I think for my audience, it's definitely like a niche audience, right? And I'm speaking to people who are in extreme life situations. And most of the people who listen to my podcast are taking every penny that they have and they're putting it in a research fund and they're funding doctors to find cures for their kids. So I almost like, don't think I could ever ask for money from my audience. Then again, I'm so connected, heart connected to so many in my audience that I do know that they love the content that I'm bringing. And I've bridged a gap of the isolation that is so rampant in our community that they love me and I love them and we're connected. You know what I mean? So I think that they would definitely be open to supporting me and paying for whatever they would want to pay for to even just subscribe to my show or get extra. But, and you know what? I think that might be the good thing about Indie Podcasts too, right? Like especially if you're feeling a niche, people want, they don't want you to go away one day. They don't want you to get a job and because you can't afford to do your podcast anymore and then just leave them hanging because they need this content. But that's what you're doing. What's the role of advertising here, right? Like if you don't want to ask the audience, I mean, at some point, because you want to keep podcasting or you want to do more, but you do need to make a living, then maybe in your case does advertising play a, so at that point, still making money like off the audience getting it from them. So I am curious about this sort of like role of advertising verse direct payment. You know, do you think that these, making it easier to sort of either give the audience more or have the audience give you, will it shift some of the money away from advertising? Would you think, oh, it's more, you know, I can ask it to be supported by the audience that's been supposed to having to put ads in front of them. Just different models for making money. Like for the podcaster who just needs to, they do need to make some money. Well, I think if you explain this to the audience, it's like, look, I could be talking about a mattress right now and you could go out and, what's the mattress cost? I have no idea. 700 bucks. Okay, 700 bucks. Okay, and of that, I'm going to make X amount of money. I tell you what, I don't really want that much money. How about instead of you spending 700 dollars, you give me half of what I would make if you bought a mattress and I'll keep doing the show. And people like, that sounds like a deal. And, you know, so it's really, you know, do we really need another stamps.com ad in our life? You know, so that's what I'm kind of excited about. I think, I remember there's a friend of mine, George Rob does the Geologic podcast and people said, look George, you're a musician. We've bought every CD you have. We bought your bizarre coloring book. Like, can you please- You had nothing to sell us. Can you please give us something to give you money because you keep putting out these episodes and there's no way to support you. So he started a Patreon account. So I think that's really one of the things if nothing else, even if it's like Paul said, even if it's just a buy me a coffee, you know, there are going to be those people that like, I've had people like, do you have like an affiliate page where you list all your affiliates and you're like, huh, note to self, make an affiliate page. And that's kind of what I was getting at with Effie is that like, I think that hopefully these conversations about subscription bring up the thoughts about advertisement and the thoughts about alternative monetization because there are absolutely people who are going to want to be like, hey, no, I need you here or you got me through this and I want you to be able to be there for other people and more, and that's what I was kind of getting at that like, I don't think you're going to be like, ah, well I do four episodes a month this way and also there's four additional episodes locked by a paywall. More than anything, you'll be like, if enough people subscribe, I can do more. There is more aspect there and that's what I'm excited for people to think about and also think about their relationship with ads like Ray said, like your content is so specific. Like there's got to be advertisers that you're going to feel comfortable talking about that are relevant to your audience that you can be super picky because you're subsidizing with other monetization. So more than, we keep talking about subscription in general in this space, we're talking about subscription becoming mainstream but more than anything it's paying podcasters as becoming mainstream. Like that's the big thing that I want to see come from all this. I was going to say because it's funny because I was going to mention the fact that like does, has this ever really worked? Like buying me a coffee, a lot of people have that, you know, if they've had a PayPal link on their website and like most podcasts will tell you, yeah, 34 cents, 50 cents, five bucks a month, right? Has it ever really worked that way to appeal to your audience to be like, dude, buy me a coffee, it's not money. But most of those people say this, like they do it the last 15 seconds of their show. Hey, if you kind of maybe think, I don't know, maybe I don't know, like this coffee thing, if you want to do it, I don't know, you can. So you're saying, so podcasters gotten better at asking. For like Effie said, she's like, I don't think I could really ever ask for money. So if in the middle you're like, hey, we're going to take a quick break here. When we come back, I'm going to tell you how Paul found his sponsor before he even launched his podcast. But before we do that, I just want to remind you, look, you're at 18 minutes of this podcast. So obviously you're enjoying it. And since you're enjoying it, if you find value in this, could you do me a favor, either tell a friend or buy me a coffee? One of those two things. I would really, really appreciate it. Now let's get back to the interview with Paul. Look, is he really using buy me a coffee? Some people, Adam Curry wrote and just go smash that boost button and give me those Satoshi's in Bitcoin. I mean, it's working for them and it's neat. I'm just like, it's just like a little bit too far off from where we are, but maybe it's coming. I do like it when you do that. I do like it when you do that in your podcast, Dave, when you wait until kind of the middle and you grab people a different way by saying, hey, you're still here. You like me. And those are the people who are going to, people who, when you shove that into the very first thing of your podcast or the first two minutes, a lot of those people are gonna, those aren't the people who are gonna pay you anyways. It is that person who has stayed 18 minutes. I mean, I just fell asleep, so the podcast kept running. So sorry, Dave, I'm gonna pay you. But for the people who are listening, those are, even when we think about any other call to action, whether it's sign up for the newsletter or subscribe, like those are the people. It's like, if you're a YouTuber you've learned, you do need to ask and when you ask, it happens. When you say subscribe, it's so annoying. I hate saying it. But it works. But it works, you try it and it works, you're like, so you try to figure out a way, how do I make this more organic? Most people don't, they just say, they lean into the typical words. But so I think the more you can personalize it, like Dave, what you're saying, you're kind of just taking time out saying, you're telling, you're giving them, you're actually telling them where the value is. That's your thing, always about the value. You need to, one of the things that's really important is you know what you should do? You should do what works. And what's funny is, people go, dude, I ran a Buy Me a Coffee and all 11 of my downloads, not one of them bought me a coffee. And it's like, yeah, 11 downloads. Like it's not gonna come from one out of it. You're also not gonna get CPM inserts or that kind of thing. And my favorite one is at the end of every single, we'll go back to PBS. At the end of every single PBS, big budget from England, the same seven actors from the BBC, they do this whole thing, commercial free and gorgeous 4K, what do they do at the end? If you'd like to buy a DVD of this, call 1-800, they gave it to you for free, 100% for free. The DVD has nothing else other than the DVD, but they're offering it for sale. And why are they doing that? Because people call and people order the DVD. The second it stops working, PBS is gonna stop doing that. So what's interesting is, do the donation, do the premium, do the mattress ad, do the whatever, see what works and run it from there. Unfortunately, what I read are these tirades from people who were like, I've got 27 subscribers and I haven't made a dime yet. And you even ask them of those 27 subscribers, how far do they listen to your show? I don't know. And maybe of those people who listen to Dave halfway through, maybe it's 10,000 downloads for Dave, but it's only 2,000 people who heard Dave ask for that. And so if 200 of them gave, that's absolutely fantastic. So you've got to run the numbers, run the options. I would love to see, and we're gonna do it, a just simple way, hey, a lot of you have asked for an easy way to donate. Here's the way to do it, personal version of the show. Subscribe on Apple. Not giving anything special, just like Brian was talking about, nothing special is just for a way for you to do this. However, though, the first episode of the premium feed is a, let me tell you how to send you the free gift, and it's just an audio file that says, go to my website, this.com slash free gift or whatever the special thing is, and then you get the name and the email address of the people who are paying you. Ah, I see what's in there. Then when you have the name and the email address of the people who are paying you, then you check on email what works. If you'd like Paul to record a voicemail message for you. Hey, whatever, man, you know, but try the levels, you know, I tried buying me a coffee, didn't work, you know, two, 11 people, you know, who think coffee is immoral, you know, maybe that wasn't the right month for you. But that gets into like a really tough conversation. Like I'm very glad that you and your friends have opinions about movies. Right. We've passed the point that you're gonna make money off of it, unless you're a celebrity or you got a great marketing budget, and that's like really tough and they're just like, but I started a podcast and I want to make money off of it. And it's just like for the people who are not watching, I have a giant gaming table back there and I spend all my time not talking about ad tech playing Dungeons and Dragons and nobody wants to listen to that podcast or see that live stream. And I would love to play video games professionally, but you know what I mean? Like just because you want to do something doesn't mean you can make money doing. Yeah, but just run the numbers. And the other thing I just say to the numbers issue, at least three of us have books. When you put the thing at Amazon, Amazon says, hey, click this button and your book is everywhere, but you make less per book. And we decide having our book everywhere and making less per book makes sense. And so the fact of the matter is, you're gonna make, I don't care who you are, you're gonna get more premium subscribers at Apple than they're gonna get anywhere else, even, and you're gonna make more money even with their 30%. And that's just the cost of business. And you gotta run those numbers as well. If you wanna subscribe, go to Spotify. There's not an Apple podcast fan in the world or there's not an overcast fan in the world who's gonna go, you know, I like Dave so much that I'm gonna change my podcast platform so that I can buy him on Spotify so that Dave gets to keep the 30% of his 99 cent a month kind of situation. It's not gonna happen now. So put yourself everywhere. That's how podcasts win. We put our podcast everywhere. So do the Spotify game. You're gonna make more for a couple of years for all three clients. Do Apple, you're gonna make less for all four clients and, you know, and see what happens in there. But just run the numbers, do the tests, ask your audience. It's not that hard. We build really good audiences. Alluding to, sorry Dave, what Brian said, I think you mentioned that it's sort of normalizing paying podcasters. Exactly, that's fantastic. Which is an interesting thing to think about. Like it's crazy, I know, I make more money on YouTube than I make from podcasting. And I don't know that I try any harder. It's something about YouTube. Well, the ads actually work, which is crazy and that's a whole other conversation. But I put links to affiliates in the description and I tell people, link is in the description, but I've also told them exactly what it is I'm talking about. They could just go look it up on Amazon, but they still use the links, right? And a part of it is they better not even know me, not the way a podcast feels like they know the host. It's a much, even podcast seems like a stronger connection to your audience. But it works because I think people on YouTube kind of just know how it goes and where to go. So I am curious, I mean, I am interested in how, I just love that, like normalizing paying podcasters and because podcasts have always been free, they're free by their nature, open, go get anywhere. So Dave, you were gonna say something. Well, I just know Brian's got a history of living in data. I always tell people expect about three, maybe 5% of your audience. Is that kind of what you've seen in terms of, do you have any data on that? I'm like, hey, if I've got 100 people, you might get three if you're really, really good. Not outside of the people who are successful at it, nobody's talking about their subscription numbers from third party stuff. I think we'll see people talk about it a little bit more, but I think the big companies that I'm interested in are gonna be real gated. But I don't think that that's a terrible percent to think about. I think related to Ray, the difference is that when, I got this in my hand, I got a mouse in my hand when I'm on YouTube. So it's very easy for me to click, for me to go to the episode description and go find the link and things like that. That's an unnatural behavior in podcasting, it feels like. But I think that, yeah, I mean, I think 5% isn't unrealistic. I think that that's a good number. So like Paul said, you're not gonna catch that one person in your 11 subscribers. Yeah, cause I have one show that I'm doing gangbusters on. I'm doing 8%, which is like unheard of. And I have another show with like insane numbers of more downloads and it's 0.4%. But normalize sharing that data. Like you saying 8%, I'm not just like, oh yes, let me steal Dave's subscribers. Like that's not how this works. We're not all twirling mustaches and trying to get each other's downloads. There's enough room. So like that's if you have that number, get vocal about it, all of you guys should, everybody watching and listening because it just makes it easier for someone to go, oh, I should do that. And then I wanna hear about the people who are screaming about not getting names and email addresses and wanna be like, what are you gonna do with them? How are you gonna monetize it? What's the thrill like? That's even more work. Now you've gotten them out of podcasting and it's just like, well, if this doesn't hit your spam filter, what's next? Yeah, that's it. It's a good question. Who here has paid a podcaster on a regular basis? Yeah, I guess. No one's guilty, they know a few. And that's for me, it's just a Patreon or something. And so I'm curious. So Effie, you're the toughest to get a dime from. What would make you pay? I mean, I guess I've bought a lot of coffees. So I've done that. I think that counts. I've done a lot of that. So I'm curious, so a podcaster sees this, Apple, Spotify, they're like, cool, they start doing it. And of the 10 podcasts that you listen to, who you paying, what made you pay? And I'm sort of theoretical here because we don't have it yet. And I don't, for me partly, on Apple, there are probably one or two shows I listen to where if they asked me and actually didn't give me any, they gave me something. If there was premium content, if I could get more of the two shows that I don't miss, I'm paying, of course it depends on the amount, right? Like, I'm not gonna pay you more and I'm paying to get Netflix because you're just not giving me that much. But so I'm just curious from everyone. So podcasters who are listening to this think, I wanna try it, but I'm not sure what to do, what might work, what's too much. So I'm thinking about, from your own consumption habits, what might get you to be, to subscribe to someone who starts, you know, podcast on Apple, premium subscription on Apple podcast or even Spotify. I would pay for my favorite podcasts without premium content. The ones that I listen to religiously, I wouldn't care if you get me anything extra. And they don't ever ask currently, like if you're thinking, they're already not doing that. You should probably reach out and be like, hey, you should probably ask me. Send them a check. That's true. Okay, to keep them. But you're super right there. I mean, like that's the people that you like, you're gonna just wanna pay. And I like your comment on the fact that you'll do the buy me a coffee, but not Patreon. Because Patreon does, I cannot believe that there's not a way that it's just like, I just wanna give you five bucks once, leave me alone, I don't care about anything else. Like this is just your channel. Let me pay you through how you decided, but on my terms, I don't wanna pay and then cancel my subscription and all that fun stuff. But I think we're gonna... Oh, good. I was finished up, I don't wanna... I just think we're gonna see the rise of 99 cents a month. Because I think I'll do that. I think that in the first month that we see a bunch of 99 cents once, I'll be spending 20 bucks a month and then I'll have to tie it back. Q Code is coming in at 2.99. And like, I think like every third series that they put out I'm into, but I'll probably try it for a month or two just because I don't wanna hear an ad and see what that's like. The micro payment is like huge. Well, that is very easy for me to press. We're talking during political season, like I feel like I'm doing something by giving just a little bit because in my mind I'm like, most people are not giving. So every dollar counts to a podcaster, every dollar counts. With the number that I said, right? Around six ads, one episode a week for a whole year at $50 CPM, it's like 16 bucks. So at the 70 cents they get from you a month on a 99 cent payment, you're like a $25 CPM, 100% fill rate, right? So that's still worthwhile for most podcasters to offer as an exit, 99 cents or 199. Like 199 is probably better than you're gonna ever do for ads for them. But I think 99 cents is still a competitive option for the people who are willing to do that. That's good, I think you rifled through a bunch of stuff there that people were like, I don't understand or don't get it. So like actually put in perspective of the comparison of a CPM, like what it would take to get and maintain an advertiser relationship versus how many people it would really take to get you to do a 99 cent percentage of your audience to do 99 cents and you're already over, I can't even imagine managing an advertiser relationship. That's a nightmare. It's a sales person who's got a strong opinion. You gotta pay for it. Yeah, you gotta pay for it. You gotta give a big cut too, so it's even less. And then it's account management who is scarce in the space. So make it really clear for our audience here, like advertising versus audience payment and how maybe this... Sure, I think that at 99 cents, every single person that you get to last a year is going to realistically earn more than if you're big enough to have a sales team. Every one of those people will ultimately earn you more dollars in your pocket than unless you have a dedicated sales team and account management team and are directly interfacing with agencies. I think programmatic is great and I think for the people who don't wanna pay doing a programmatic solution for open marketplace ads or being approached by people who want to advertise with you, all fantastic options. But you will not be worse off if you sell access at 99 cents. And I hate saying that because that's talking about driving the pricing down, but in a world where HBO is $16 a month and almost every month this year they're gonna give me an opportunity to not hire a babysitter and go to the movie and spend way too much on food. Like, you know what I mean? You're competing with HBO and Netflix and Hulu. So... We'll do the calculus too. But if I'm doing something that's super niche like Effie, you can't get that information other places. I would charge more than 99 cents for that. Dave wants to charge more. But I think Effie should charge more because it's about the donation to Effie. It's not about buying it ad-free. It's not about the extra content. That is a different mindset, which subscriptions normalize. But if it's a movie review, guys... Right, yeah. But let's run the Effie numbers here for a second, okay? Is it gonna be Effie will workshop in a year? Let's do it. I'm ready. I mean, three people paying 99 cents a month or one person paying 2.99 a month, okay? Same amount of net to Effie, you know? And you wanna think through that number as well because that's really important. And then back to Brian, what you said about normalizing paying podcasters, what's interesting is, you know, we were asked who pays podcasters, Effie didn't raise her hand and she said, oh, I just buy them coffees. She pays podcasters, you know? Everybody who raised their hand pays podcasters, she just didn't think of it that way. Paul Rewind, you said that number, why was that, why is that important? The three people paying 99 versus... It is so much easier to get one person to pay $3 than it is to get three people to pay it all. Is there any consideration of, you know, a lot of times I see like someone price something out of the average person's price range and it's like they're going to, if, I don't know, I like the idea of more people being able to feel like they can participate. Sure, yeah, you have the 99 cent level but when you're looking strategic, okay? From a purely strategic standpoint, it is easier to get one person to pay $10 a month for your show than to get 10 people to pay 99 cents for your show. Hands down. But in podcasting, here's the different part. Did you lose those other nine people? Were they stop listening to your primary feed completely? Or are they still retained there and you still have 10 people listening? It became, since we were workshopping Effie, it became very, very like focused for me because she has a community that's so connected and that like is giving money elsewhere but would love to feel like they're able to participate and $2 could be the difference. Right. Like it just sometimes it just feels good to be able to say, you know what, I'm helping too. So, cause it feels like there's something. You have to keep in mind, a 20 ounce bottle of Mountain Dew is $1.33 at the end of my street. So, and that's for one, if I'm giving you four episodes a month, that's, oh, I'm gonna have to do Mountain Dew. Buy me a coffee. Buy me a dew.com. Buy me a dew.com. But Dave owns it. The hard part there, and this is the worst, we can just watch what happened in the app economy, right? The reason why the iPad that just came out that uses the same exact technology as the latest Mac will likely not have Mac OS for a while is because Adobe on that is, I don't know, a 10th of the price, right? And like all these things are either subscription and it's smaller to just get the iPad one or they're unique apps. The idea of charging $50 for a piece of software for your iPad is something that people have been screaming about for 10 years. It's not any easier to build. And so that's, I think we're gonna learn the most from looking at the app ecosystem. But Apple, Spotify's gonna allow you to do this, but Spotify doesn't do it in the app the same way except it does have the subscribe button. So, it will prompt you in the app if you host on Anchor and you can split your feed. You can have your primary feed on whatever your host is and just your premium on Anchor, which means you show up twice in the feed. NPR's Planet Money will be Planet Money and Planet Money Plus, which is the paid only one. But I think that the thing that a lot of people are skipping over is channels, right? So channels are so cool because you can charge for them and you can group people together. So what happens if like- We can have a network is what you're saying. Yeah, you can have it, you can build your own network. So how does that work? Does one person own the channel and they have to have all the podcasts or do they get to allow certain podcasts to be in the network? And then how do you split that? I'm not sure on the specifics of how, I know that they've made it so that multiple people can sign into one account now. And I get the feeling that one person wants to be the head of a channel. I'm not clear if all of the podcasts in a channel have to be owned under one account. But I'm sure- I haven't been told they do, but find out the most believable source. Well, what we've told everyone forever, if you're gonna start a podcast with your friend and you're gonna get advertising, sign some papers because it's gonna get real ugly when the money gets split. Like, how is that gonna happen, but- Real ugly. Yeah, but the, and Evie, that's- The idea is super cool. Yeah, because I mean like, I'm not, I really don't wanna make money off of people listening to my podcast. The, my entire model is that there are so many companies in this space and a lot of what I do is B2B that I have sponsorship from those companies so that anyone can consume the content for free. And I have a Patreon and people sign up for it. I'm just like, please stop. I'll send you stickers. I'm gonna cancel the payment. And because like Ray said, just have it up there. But the channel is neat because I'll throw my content in there for a group of people and just be like, yeah, donate my share, right? And now it's got more content and it's more reason. The same reason why like, probably won't sign up for one QCode show but the QCode channel at 299. I mean, that's interesting, right? That's, and it also makes my library cleaner, which is I think we keep skipping over too. Sometimes I don't want one of those squares for every podcast that I listen to. I'd love to be able to have folders in the Apple Podcasts app at least. So having a channel for QCode that means that I don't have all 10 of their shows individually, if I'm enjoying them and that's an added perk. It's a bonus. Especially when you're obsessed with, you know, a channel, like, you know, having all minority podcasters talking about podcasting over here, having all the rare disease people over here, it would be nice. Yeah. I want rare disease people talking about podcasting. That's the channel that I'd sit in right now. That's definitely about the other way around. I'm gonna make that one for you. Don't even worry about it. That's what I'm doing right now. Is there any... So Apple makes a huge chunk of change in the pay-per-click part of the App Store. Okay, you go to the App Store, you search any term somebody's buying that click. And I played enough to know how well that little industry is working. Wait a minute. Stop. I'm actually not sure... So you go to the App Store. Yeah. What? Yeah, so you go to the App Store. So explain. It's, well, you know, so someone can say, I am willing to pay 10 cents a click every time somebody who searches disease in the App Store clicks over to my app. Not necessarily buys, not necessarily downloads, but clicks. And as long as nobody's offering 11 cents, Apple will put my ad in place. Where's this marketplace? How do I buy into this? It's called the Apple ad marketplace or something like that. Anyone has access to this? Can we do this? Anyone has access to it. But you have to have a developer account because you're in the App Store linking to other apps. I think they're different accounts, but I don't know for sure. Okay. Well, now I know my bill. Well, no one in our world's aware of it. There's a lot of money going through it. So there are some people aware of it. I do know my bill last month was 42 cents. So, you know, for what I was playing with in this space, but what's interesting is, you know, you take a word like finance. You know, you take a word like mortgage. You take a word like real estate. You know, those are going for over a buck a pop. Those are specifically to stay in the App Store to go to an app in the category there, surgeon. Yep. Well, we can see that we have a podcast store. But we can see the podcast parallel with Overcast who lists their numbers for prices per category. Exactly. Marco's not going hungry off of that. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, do the math. I'm in the App Store right now. You know, and I'm going to type in the word podcast in the App Store, okay? And funny thing is, is Audible is number one. Before even the Apple podcast app, which I think is absolutely hilarious. You know, so Audible is paying Perklix to take over, you know, that particular audience. And I'll tell you this. This will be in the podcast store. There's no reason for it. They have the infrastructure. They have the billing. They have everything. Everything we've seen in this rollout has followed the app store. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, yeah. It has to. It makes the most sense. Yeah, it makes the most sense. It's a 10-year proven business model. And they fought every single one of those fights. And the fact that they're rolling it out right now confidently says that they think that they've got, you know, the legal ground to go against all these, you know, anti-trust issues that they ever, the anti-competitive issues. So I, it's got to follow anybody who takes a look at that playbook. But that's why the advertising side is, I don't think it's going to scale. Everyone's like, Apple's going to get into advertising. I think it's going to mimic the same thing because they failed with iAds. Right, exactly. Failed miserably with iAds. It wasn't just, yeah. But would you buy ads? Yeah, I think so. Especially since it's really hard to find good content in this world. Yeah. I think I would. And a lot of people aren't going to compete with you. In podcasting. I mean, Dave will, Dave, yeah. In podcasting, nothing has ever worked better than overcast for getting real audience, paying to get real audience. I don't know how else you tell people who have a podcast who want to give some money and get a real audience member back. Overcast, for me, in a very small sample size, has worked better than anything I've ever seen at a great price. And I've been waiting for that to sort of get priced out of that, but yeah, quite. Right now in the business category, $1,650. And I'm not sure what we're paying for there a month. That's the toughest category. That's the toughest category that they list there. I think the entrepreneur. It says how many expected subscribers it has there. It runs until you hit that number. How nice. Yeah. It says how many impressions. It's estimated. But it's how many impressions, and then they estimate your outcome based on it. Yeah. Your subscriptions are going to be somewhere between $65 and $85, which is $22 CPA. The lowest one is kids and family. Which blows my mind. Which is $200. I have a toddler, and I have listened to Mollye Denali and PRX 1,000 times per episode. I can recite the Ikea ads and kids podcasting. Like I know we're super derailed from subscription. Kids podcasting is where the next millionaires are going to be made in this space. Because I got a toddler. I got another one on the way. Give me something to entertain them that's not a screen. So I feel slightly better as a parent and that they can sing along to or read along to. And I just listened to WOW in the world for the first time. And whatever they're doing there, I'm going to give them money and get their special content. Yeah. I totally agree. It's crazy. Those damn kids. But Paul, you think that same. I mean, Marko's been way ahead on that one. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Marko. And I'm looking up some. We've spent thousands with them. And I'm looking at my most recent buy. And spent $330 and got 41 subscribers. But yeah, this is in his first priority. Well, right. Yeah, Marko's a smart guy. But he's done the same thing. Instapaper and all these other things, right? Like they all are the same model, right? Showing the content in one place and then advertising additional content to it. But overcast is so tiny. That's the funny thing. Overcast, now for most of my clients, overcast largely because we buy ads up against them. Overcast is doing more than Spotify or doing more than Google. But here's what's interesting. If I can get a subscriber for $10, keep them over the course of the year, make $15. That's triage. Yeah. That gets really interesting. And if I could do that on Apple, this gets true. And I'm telling you, one year from the day Apple turns this on, they will make more money in this than they will in the ads. And I think what would be interesting is the smart folk will actually take their ad money. We'll take their premium money to buy the ads to build up that audience. Which is funny because we've always talked about what's in it for Apple when it comes to podcasts. They sort of... This. Yeah. Long game. I mean, I don't think that it even required premeditation so much as you just know, I may be a little luck. Podcasting succeeded. That was lucky. Despite their best efforts sometimes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Maybe right now. Well, there's a book. Anybody read the 43 Mutable Laws of Marketing by recent trout? I hope. Is there a podcast? No, no, I don't even know if they're still around. But it's this book that tells these laws of marketing, but then they tell all the great stories that we know, the Pepsi Wars, the beer wars, the rental car companies. And one of the three rules, if you're number one, your job's to stay number one. Don't do anything in any way, shape, or form to disrupt your number one status. Which is what Apple was doing for the last 15 years. They were like, why doesn't Apple do this? Why doesn't Apple do this? Because they didn't have to. They were never challenged. That's why they weren't doing it. Spotify slowly is coming potentially, and they got nervous. Now, they're still number one by far. But now they're starting to act. And one of the things in the Mutable Laws of Marketing is they say the day number one starts talking about worrying about number two is the day that number two wins, which is really, really interesting. And the job at number two is to remind everybody that you're not number one. That's the Avis We Try Harder. And the law of number three is to remind everybody that you're in the top three. Like Google's only purpose in life right now is to encourage people to put the Subscribe on Google on your podcast page. That's the only thing they should be doing in life. I think number three is the avalanche. I don't think it's Google or Amazon. Because I think that what Spotify, every whole Spotify, Pokes, and Apple reminds us that we don't want anybody else touching it, that this all started with openness and RSS feeds. And every single time that you hear, like Mike from Anker, his posts about all these things that are being held back and podcasting are because the openness of the RSS feed, you literally list out things that you can do with the RSS feed if Spotify just adopted changes to it. And I think the truth of it is that every hole that Spotify puts in Apple is going to hopefully reinforce the smart creators that you shouldn't build on rented land. I was kind of curious about that, too, because Apple is creating this walled garden for this section of subscriptions, because you're going to upload your audio. We talked about owning the audience, that meaning they're not going to give you access to who those subscribers are. No different than the way your podcast has operated before. But you can't necessarily just move. You could build on Apple podcasts, just like YouTube. If you build on YouTube, you're not going to move them off to Vimeo. But Apple's always supported the open podcast ecosystem. And now they've built this little part over here that you're trapped. But you're active in YouTube. I mean, there's so many big YouTube streamers and whatnot that have started building their own thing and releasing the content a week before. So the people who are willing to subscribe or buy into those things in those closed ecosystems are now migrating over, because they followed them and up. You're absolutely going to get people that subscribe for it and forget about it. I mean, like ABC Mous just billed me again, because I subscribed for it and forgot about it, right? Check that gym card in your wallet. I was smart enough to cancel out in the pandemic. But yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think people will be able to move them over. I think that if they're committed enough to stay and they're actual customers instead of they forgot to turn off billing, I don't think it's going to be that hard to migrate. I think we're seeing live examples of that in the streaming community now. What we're experiencing right now isn't unique. What is unique is the origin being open and free, because most of these other spaces going through this started closed and escaped. We were free, closed, and hopefully we can remind people why we want to keep it free. Free isn't open, not financially paid for. So as a podcast... There's some political metaphors there. As a podcast we're getting into this. You know, how many interviews have you had where someone asked you, if you were doing it all over again, what would you do differently? What should podcasters be thinking about who are not, Effie, who's not doing premium now, and sort of preparing for that and that whole ownership thing and always tell people, probably my answer to that question all the time is building an email list. I have a pretty good email list that I never ever use. So that's its own problem. It's a system process. It's its own problem, but that is your way to communicate with them outside of the podcast. If they're not listening to the podcast, they can't hear you say we're moving or whatever it is. So, I don't know, just thoughts about podcasters who are not currently using any kind of these premium services whether it's something that's already available or that is coming with Spotify and Apple. Where should a podcasters head be at? First of all, they should listen to podcasts about podcasting and they should be everywhere. Like you said earlier, right? Like be as accessible as possible. Whatever you have the bandwidth to do and including social media, I think just being out there, showing your face, doing stories or doing live streams, whatever you can do, and just really building your community that way. Obviously, the email list is king in some people's opinions for various reasons, but I think not getting locked in to one particular place that keeps you kind of like a prisoner. Not that they do that anymore in anchor, exactly, but I don't know, being as accessible as possible, I think is really important. Yeah, and that's why I ask because most people do not get into it for a business, right? A business goal, right? But now at some point, these opportunities, if you want to call it that, come up and you start thinking, maybe that's for me. So anyways, Paul, where your client comes to you and is doing a podcast who is not doing premium, are you telling them bonus content? Are you telling them just make sure you move them? Or what are you telling them? Well, it depends who the client is. Obviously, we kind of got them all over the place. But one of the things Brian spoke to, it's better than one entry in the Apple podcast database, two entries in the Apple podcast database. And what was that? I'm gonna throw my phone away. Everything doubles up now. Yeah, but that could be very strategic. And the thing is, is from a marketing standpoint, premium podcast that is the premium version of the preversion of X, is a cross marketing opportunity inside of there. And so that is something to definitely think about. We're gonna see a fiber type service that will upload, that will take our premium stuff and put it at Patreon and put it at Apple and put it at Spotify for us. So that'll come in a couple of months. That won't be that big of a deal. So to play all the games and again, to get all the double entries is definitely an interesting place. If it's truly a, I wanna produce this and I wanna make revenue from it, let's try the book, let's try the email newsletter, let's try the ads, let's try the premium, let's cross-reference and let's see what works. And premium, the reason paying $50 for an app is unheard of on devices is because 99 cent is so easy. Like we're so conditioned to the 99 cent part. And so it's gonna be so ridiculously easy for someone to pay the 99 cents. And you gotta have to leverage that. And Apple, I mean, from what I hear the Spotify thing it's gonna be like, you gotta go to the website. Like that's not the easy 99 cent spot. And so one of the rules is make it easy for someone to pay you. And so if they wanna buy the book, if they wanna click on the ad, if they wanna do the affiliate page, like you said, Dave, we just tell everybody do what makes sense. Most of our clients are selling their own product and selling their own stuff. So it's not really a big deal for them but anybody in the podcast or a podcasting space take the model that works. I think, I think you would just be blown away with the people who will throw 99 cents your way or about 99 your way, with ease. I've got some friends that I'll be telling about your show about five minutes after I hang up here who are dealing with some really tragic issues. And you know, yeah, money is tight but 99 cents to someone who's helping them along the way is a no-brainer. My thought on that too is like, even you could use it for good, right? Maybe if you don't need the money but like maybe it's almost like a donation ride. For paper research yourself, yeah. You could hold that money somewhere obviously that is better ways to probably do that. So you're not losing money in the process but if you feel bad or like, people are, again, people getting the podcast and not necessarily for money a lot of times but they might find out that they need to or want to and then but there are percentages you could, you could do other things. And again, think outside. Simple things like if you try this just ask your audience, do you edit your own stuff? No. Okay, good. Smart. You know, what's the thing that comes to the most amount of time for you right now? Prep? Yeah, I would say prep. I would say prep. And just the back and forth. You know, the thing about Patreon, the model that I've seen the most is, hey, once we raise this much, we can change the show this way. Right. Yeah, if I hit 500 subscribers on Patreon, I can hire this person. People don't always know what to give for bonus because Patreon says create these different levels and you're like, I need to get something. Exactly. So you can get the gold too. You know, people are so hungry for what you've got and you know, those who want what you have are hungry for it. You know, it's like, hey, once we reach this much money, I can do a new show a month. You know, I can do the bonus shows. I can do, you know, the annotated transcripts or whatever it is that people want. You know, that's the other thing. Like you were saying, Ray, it doesn't necessarily have to be by F.E.A. Beamer. You know, you know, they can make the show better. Or we can, or we're- That's a good point. Or we can give to this, I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe we can, I just- This is the best part of it. We're at the beginning of it. Yeah. So we don't have to know today. And we're like, there's going to be a bunch of people who make a ton of money when this starts off because of that 99 cent just buy it mindset. I'm really excited for them. But there's like, what's the next idea and the next? Like this is just the first thing where we say normalize paying people. Like just because you want the content for free doesn't mean that like F.E. shouldn't have dinner. Like we gotta normalize that. All right. So as a wrap up here, are there any like glaring downsides? Is there's anything to these changes that you're like, this is bad for podcasters or podcasting? There's a big glaring downside. There are the same people who think that they're going to get rich reviewing movies with their friends. Now I think they're going to get rich charging $4.99 a month to sell access to them reviewing movies with their friends. And, you know, right? It's it's but that's every that's every industry. We're at that. I mean, like the New York Times doesn't get pissed about blogs right now. You know, it's got it takes a while for that callous to build up. But that's that's the truth of it. And especially with you guys talking about podcasting, a lot of people come in like some of them are serious and ready to go. But I'm sure you guys get a lot of those brand new people. And they're like, we've been at it for like 10 episodes. I took a two month break before I start back up. How much can I expect to make? Exactly. But that's it. And that's not exaggeration. Yeah. I've been consistent. I've done 12 episodes in a row. Right. But it's but it's and that's I like with the advice with that Ray was looking for for that. Like the business is like, you know, if you're ready to expand to another channel. So like, you're good, right? Like you got someone who can ideally tell you like, hey, look, you suck on Instagram. Don't start that podcast yet. Like clean up what you got. My biggest thing with podcasting is if you want to make money and expect to, I don't know, invest what you expect to make for an entire year for maybe a few years to get it off the ground. Like it's a business. It doesn't this isn't a get rich quick scheme. It's like opening a store or opening a business, which people tell you it's several years of not making money potentially. And so if you're not ready for that, then have fun with it. It's really cool to speak into a mic. It's really cool to put it on there and like be like, I'm my mom downloaded it again. Like that's there's nothing wrong with that. But like, you don't magically get to make money due on because you started a podcast. Dave does lips and have a mom filter. So if she's actually part of the IAB standard. OK, I thought they wrote that in anything else anything else that you want to scare podcasters away from? Why did I just agree with Paul? I when I when I heard that, I was like, oh, no, I was like, it's going to bring those people like I'm going to make I need to make some bank and I need to make it now. And I can make it faster if I charge 990. You know, you know, Netflix charges 999. Why can't I? Yeah, that's that's the part. And I'm I always feel like I should get business cards and just say Dave Jackson dream crusher, you know, because I'm just I'm just like, I hate to like tell you this. But, you know, not 50 percent of your audience is going to sign up. And people pay to my my catchphrase now is so that they can blank. You know, I talked to interesting people about their interesting stories. So your audience can do what? Because they'll pay to be transformed. Now, if it's like information, I can't get someplace else. But if it's just like, well, you stopped me from being bored in the car. All right, well, that might be worse something. But some of it's just not, you know, there's just things that I listen to and I go, yeah, I'm not paying for that. And it's not a case where I'm not their target audience. That's the fun one when you go, oh, I'm really looking forward to this and hit play and you're like, why are they talking about French toast recipes? Like, wait, what? Did I did I hit the wrong button? You know, so that's my biggest thing. I I'm just I think we might draw in people that think, oh, I was going to start a podcast, but I am now that I can make money at it. And I'm like, OK, good luck. I think those people to figure out real quick how hard it is, how much time it takes and that you actually have to have a lot of other kinds of skills to make it work and to make people want to listen to you because they can hear your intention. Yeah, I quit clubhouse heavy because those people are still there. Still being like this month. Can I make enough money? I was on clubhouse not to get on a total tangent, but there was a woman. I went into a room. She'd been in this room for seven hours. And I was like, how are you people? Like what's, you know, and then she explained our husband makes a ton of cash. And I was like, oh, that's how you stay in clubhouse for seven hours. You have a spouse that's doing really, really well. Step one to be enriching, podcasting don't need to make money from it. Yeah. So. Ray, what do you think? What are your thoughts? You've been kind of guiding the talks tonight. That is my only job here. I try not to talk too much or I get comments and stop talking so much. So I'm kidding. It's my show. We do what we want. But we are we since we are live, we're well extended, which means we had a great conversation. But as we go out, if there is something I left out that you were just like, Ray, bring this up or I'm dying to say this and he won't shut up, add that, then let us know where to find your podcast. And we will let the good people go. Effie, thanks again for coming back. It was very late notice. And so. So yeah, no, I just go to the roundtables and they were great. Let's get them back. So thank you. Yes, I was stoked. Thanks for inviting me. Of course. And where where can we find your podcast? You can find me everywhere on social media at once upon a gene dot com. I'm everywhere. Call me. Nice. All right. Paul's going to do that. And Brian, thanks for being first time roundtabler. And hopefully you will come back to. And when I when I when I send you the email two hours before joined in, but I encourage anyone. Podcasts are roundtable dot com slash guest. That's how you can get on the roundtable, but you also be on the email list. And you'll see hopefully if I send the email out quick enough, you'll see what we're going to talk about. If if that hits you particularly, you know, it hits you. You're like, I absolutely want to add to that email me. That is primary. It's a great way to get on because it's just it's hard to get everyone on. But staying sort of top of mind again, really, if the topic is just like, I have something to add to that, get in touch. And, you know, we can do like 10 people on here. So we've done that rarely on StreamYard, but I'm I'm always down to to pack the house and talk less. So Brian, thanks again for first time and not the last time. Yeah, thank you. And what can we find your newsletter? No, we want the podcast. Well, all of it can be found at sounds profitable dot com. And it's a weekly newsletter, weekly podcast. And I even narrate the articles if you check out my free supercast feed. All right. And Paul Colligan. I think if you're like filling a co-host seat, you don't qualify for t-shirts. So maybe next time, Paul, maybe next time. But thanks for joining us this time. Well, thanks for having me this time. All right. Where should we get that podcast? At the podcast report dot com. Pretty much tells you what you're going to get, I think. I think we try to get it. All right. Dave Jackson, co-host checks in the mail. Thank you, man. Yeah, Dave Jackson, thanks for this episode. I'm going to say go over to profit from your podcast.com. That ties in a little more to what we're talking about today. Where I just interviewed Agnes from. Mm hmm. An advertising agency whose name I cannot remember. That's hilarious. Well, I mean, that's a tease. You got to go. You got to go. I love it. Wasn't a branding expert. Podcorn. There we go. From Podcorn. So. All right. Didn't they get bought or something? They did. They're now. Hard to see. Yeah. So that whole line yard. So this was before they got bought. Make a podcast that someone will buy. All right. This is how you make your money. Started off that way. Make something so good that Spotify would just want to pay you to do the podcast and you're done. That's what I've learned. I'd also like to add that I do by podcasters products. Yeah. Now I got to get the podcast report. I don't have that one yet. Yeah, I say I qualified it probably a little too finely when I said you pay podcasters, but it worked. It worked for the show. So we've all we've all given money. Give money to a podcaster. Your favorite podcaster, like not this podcast, but someone that is really giving you value. You know, I like that idea of like, Brian, you just sort of like just send them send them a thing, right? So I don't know how you do that if they don't have. A way to do that per se. So if you're a podcaster, make sure you have some way that someone can donate if they want, right? Most of the time have a website, right? Send people back to that website. That's where everything gathers. So have your own website. Yes, where to have any of these platforms. Worse to have no way for someone to pay you, then a way for someone to pay you and nobody paying you. That's right. That's right. It's a go on the website and you don't have a contact link, right? And he's I'm asking people to get in touch and they just they never do. I shouldn't tell. All right, let's get out of here. Podcasts roundtable.com slash guest sign up. We'll see you on here. Wave goodbye. Thanks, everybody.