 Let's clear this up once and for all. Did you do anything to harm your sister, John Bonnet? Did you murder your sister, John Bonnet? I made it. All right. You ready? Yeah. Yep. Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst, and I train law enforcement, the military, and interrogation in body language, and I created the number one online body language course, Body Language Tactics with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language, helping people all over the world to stand out when trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the U.S. military. Nowadays, I teach intelligence agencies and the general public in enhanced persuasion, interrogation, influence, and people reading. I'm also the number one bestselling author of the ellipsis manual and behavior profiling. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior. Put together this number one BodyLanguageTactics.com course with Scott. I spend most of my time on Wall Street in corporate America. All right. Now, this is your first time being here. Go ahead and subscribe. We're over 200,000 subscribers now. We're on a jag. So go ahead and subscribe. We really appreciate it. Hit the like button as well. Today, we're going to talk about Burke Ramsey. He's Jean Manet's brother. And there was a big hoopla about whether he had anything to do with what happened to her. So we're going to take a look at the videos from Dr. Phil's show where he interviewed Burke. And keep in mind as we go through this, we're not on the side of whether he's guilty or not guilty or anything, he did it or didn't do it. We're Switzerland. We don't care. We could not possibly care less. We don't even know that guy. We're just telling you what we see in the body language in these specific videos. Now at the end, we'll say, here's what we might say, here's what we think happened in the big picture. But for what we're doing now is we're just showing you the body language and telling you about that, that we're seeing in these specific videos that we're showing you. That's it. All right. You ready? Yeah. Here we go. You remember waking up that morning? Yep. The first thing I remember is my mom first thing in my room, really frantic saying like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I'm running around my room, looking for a job and a, at that point I was awake. And the next thing I remember is a police officer coming to my room and shining a flashlight. It was still dark when this happened. Yeah. I was just laying there. I never go first on these, so I'm going to go first this time. Good. All right. So a lot of people are going to say, this behavior we're seeing is odd. It is odd behavior for most people. But what we're seeing here is when people say, well, he's really still. He doesn't move very much. What's going on is this. We're seeing small scale demonstrative behavior. In other words, we're seeing the same things we've seen someone who moves around a lot, but we're seeing very small, very small movements. For example, if you go see Mark, I see here is somewhere where Mark does a keynote. He's all the time. He's way, you know, he uses everything. Even on here, he's using, he's very demonstrative with his, with his illustrators. But in this case, the Berks illustrators are really small. Everything from, we see hardly any movement in his eyebrows at all throughout all of these throughout the entire videos that we're using here. The time we see it the most here is when he talks about being awake. When he says, I was awake, then that's when his eyebrows go up. And then again, where he talks about the cop of the flashlight, which we'll get into in just a few minutes. But we don't see a whole lot of behaviors that are what would normally be called termed as normal. For example, the behaviors we're seeing are common among those with autism on the autistic spectrum and really, really introverted and shy people. So that when we see his movements, they're very small, they're really little, like in this case, we're seeing when, when he, when he, we see three at a time sometimes where his eyebrows, his eyebrows will go up, but his head will move back, his arms will come up. There is one time where his eyebrows do move at the same time. We see his hand fidgeting. We can tell he's under a lot of stress because the way his hand is fidgeting, he's not moving the whole lot, his hand is fidgeting. Also his legs are crossed. Most people are going to be under the impression that when someone's legs are crossed and their arms are crossed, they're not into what you have to say, they're, they're turned off. In this case, it's his ankles are crossed and his legs are still open a little bit. That denotes, it indicates that he's relaxed a little bit. Dr. Phil's a great guy. We've talked to him. He's a really nice guy. So I'm sure beforehand he's talked to him, got him relaxed and got him ready to ask these questions to him. So the kid's fairly relaxed. When we, when we see him getting stressed again, we see things a little chew on his mouth and we see that hand get to go in there. When he gets really stressed, he'll, he'll pop off with a couple other things, which we'll get into later on. If, but going back to the crossed ankles, if you're in an elevator, try to keep your legs crossed before anybody gets on, cross your legs and lean up against the back there. When somebody gets on, your brain is going to say, we better, we better not do this anymore. Not just from a social aspect, but from a, I better protect myself aspect. So his, his, his ankles are crossed, which that lets us know, or lets you know that he's relaxed and he's, he doesn't feel threatened at this point. So that's what I got. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So for me, among the best parts of this entire interview is the fact that Dr. Phil is asking questions that he is no reason to lie to what we would call a control question, typically something that we can get a baseline for this guy. So we see his baseline. Now I'm also going to tell you, he's got a nervous, weird smile. There are two things I'll say about that. It's only nervous and weird. If you're not him, in his case, it's always there. Go look at pictures of him at his mother's funeral. Go look at pictures of him as a child. That smile is there. I was talking to my sister a lot of days. She had a great point, never even considered it. She said, do you think maybe he picked that up from being around all the pageant stuff, you know, that fake smile and his sister was always doing it. His mother was coaching and he always saw it. Maybe he picked that up there. Don't know, not speculating, but great call out by Lisa. So then if I look at his baseline, he's open, mostly his legs crossed, like you said, but that's pretty, he's still pretty open in his body language at this point. And he's illustrating, meaning punctuating what he's thinking very effectively. Or it's chase. I think you call a body narration. He's using a flashlight. He's sleeping. He's doing all that stuff that tells you he's, he's really telling a story when he does feel uncomfortable or when he's uncertain how he's perceived. He does a request for approval. That brow goes up and his hands come up as if, Hey, what are we going to do here? If you want to know if this smile is a smile or if it's just his normal, go back to when he says, um, at that point I was awake, I'm sorry. The next thing I remember, go to go back, watch the video and freeze it when he says the next thing I remember and look at his face. It's not a smile. It's his normal. I think I told the story of the Navy seal, I call a laughing boy, resting, smile face. I guess is the way you put it, right? He's good. Just have the face that looks like he's smiling all the time. This guy is one of those people. So we're looking at what's a baseline for him. Remember, if you do something enough, it's normal for you humans form habits very quickly. And we all have something odd. It's just, we're not all being asked if we killed someone. So we are not all under that kind of scrutiny. Chase, what do you got? Absolutely agree with you, Greg. And I think my first thing here is smiling in parentheses, pageant mom training. So that was, that was a big thing that I thought about this morning. And I do think there's a very good potential that we're dealing with someone on the spectrum here. And so everything that the moment that you realize something like this is happening, everything needs to be taken as an outlier. This behavior might be an outlier. So the eyes are moving to five o'clock. If you're looking at him, I'm giving you the clock eyes are moving to five o'clock when his mom is looking for John Bonnet, but they're three o'clock when he's talking about the police and the torch or the flashlight, as we say here. So think of those two things. The police probably did happen. And if I was the interrogator here, I would say this is two different things. There's different things going on here. Talk about mom coming in. I'm talking about laying in bed and being asleep and my body doesn't move. But I'm talking about the police coming in and searching the room. And now my body gets a lot more movement, a lot more illustrative. And the eyes and body move together as he's recalling the police being in there. They did not in the first part. And when he discusses laying in bed, his body shows you how he was laying, his narrating, he's showing you what was going on. And when he speaks about his mother coming in to ask where John Bonnet is, there's no movement, there's not a lot of movement there. But when he's talking about laying in bed, both of his hands are up like this. And I think he was scared when he woke up that morning. And that's what we call a pugilistic movement. If even if a human being burns to death in a fire, their body naturally ends up in that position permanently because that's our natural go to response for a pugilistic situation or a self defense. So it's an interesting video here. And I'm going to talk about his baseline throughout, but Greg hit a lot of that. And I want you to watch when he makes eye contact and when he doesn't. So starting now, we're going to rewatch this. You'll see the rest of these videos. Watch when he makes it and when he doesn't make it. I think that's pretty relevant. Mark. Yeah, lovely. So think about one of the things that you're going to want to do when you're in a pageant. One of the things you're not going to want to show is that you are you have fear. Essentially, I think what we're going to see through this is how he tries to protect himself from showing fear. There are many types of smile out there. Some of the smiling we're going to see is that pageant smile. It's bright eyed and bushy tailed. There's a real life in the eyes, but actually we don't see the wrinkles here that would make it a true smile of pleasure. It's kind of put on to give energy and life. Sometimes we're going to see the smile of fear. And I think you're absolutely right, Chase. I've got it myself that this is a signal of fear. We see when he talks about when he starts reenacting that moment of the police coming in, we see him shrink as the police come in. Then he becomes the police officer and we see him grow a little bit and look around as the police officer. That tells me he's able to take on different characters, which would mean he's even easily influenced into taking on aspects of the story. That tells me as well, going further down, we'd have to be careful interviewing him because he'll easily take on any character that we present to him. What I do want to say is right at the start, you know, do you remember this? Yeah, it's really clear. Yeah, it's not yes, I do. There seems to be no kind of I'll elongate this. I'll make it grander than it needs to be. Just yeah, I remember it. He becomes himself, the police officer. He acts that out. We do see these indicators in his hand of some stress and pressure, and we'll see that later on where he kind of digs into his own hand to kind of potentially self-stimulate and alleviate some of the pressure that he's not in control of from outside. But yeah, I just want to leave it on that. It feels to me already. He's easy to influence and he's going to use this smiling to protect himself, to placate other people, to not let us know that he's fearful because he's on display right now. He knows this is a big TV show. He's with a really high status character there. Yeah, Dr. Phil, really lovely to be around. Absolutely, but super famous. And so it's a big high stress situation to that sense. There, that's what I got for you. All right, one thing I want to add about his illustrators is when we see we see four of them at the same time, I think I said three earlier, we see his eyebrow. This is the most illustrator we see used at one time in this thing. His eyebrows go up and his hands go up and his head goes back. That's two if we count one, two, three, then four. That's four of them at one time. So he's really he's he's he's paying attention to what he's saying. And he's really trying. He's really selling as he goes through that, which is good, which is what you want to do. And that that comes out naturally. So when you see those, you see two or three in Tandemore in concert with each other, that's actually a good sign. And especially when you see a lot of illustrators that the person is most likely being forthright or honest about what they're talking about. He's following his story. We're getting sorry, you go ahead, Greg. Yes, following his story is my favorite part of the whole thing. He looks like he's telling a story. What's interesting is this guy has been kind of cloistered since Chambane was killed. And so all of this kind of behavior, all of the body language that we all take for granted, he's not he's not using it. He's not around all the same people we are. We're all more comfortable because we're in front of people. And the more cloistered you are, the more likely your body language is to become odd. And if you ever run into people who are in a very cloistered environment, they all have signaling that's odd. I don't know a whole lot about him. I know he works in some kind of computer security now, and he's very private now. So yeah. Yeah, I would say we're getting a lot of information compressed into short areas, and that's why we might see a lot of stuff like, for example, Chase, when you were talking about his eyes going from five to kind of the other side, I think that's because time is being compressed for him. And he's having, you know, those two elements of the story are quite separate. But because he's being asked to talk about them now, they kind of get crunched together. And it just looks a bit weird that he goes from one side to the other side. If he told the story over time, I think, you know, we might get something more usual from him. But I don't see him hiding time to what something that, you know, Greg might might bring up. There's no there's no and and then. Right. You know, verbal version of that. Yeah, it just jumps from from one story to another. One thing to bug me to death. And I don't want to talk bad about their editor. But man, you probably know this is Mark. The ending on this, the video editing is OK. But the sound on it is horrible because you hear the room sound when when Burke is talking and when Dr. Field talks, it's just Dr. Fields all compressed and nice. And you don't have that room sound. The editor should have taken you do when you go film somewhere or video somewhere, you get what's called a room sound. So if there are any problems, you know, that room sound go over. So if you have an odd edit, you know, it doesn't sound one noise in one sound of the room this way when somebody's talking, then a completely different sound when somebody else is talking. That kept bugging the squad out of me. I couldn't stand that. Wait till next time you're on Dr. Field and that sound engineer gets hold of you. That's what I say to want to talk bad about. Maybe they're in a hurry or something. You remember waking up that morning? Yep. The first thing I remember is my mom first thing in my room, really frantic, saying, like, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. Running around my room, looking for Jaminé. At that point, I was awake. And the next thing I remember is a police officer coming to my room and shining a flashlight. Was still dark when this happened. Yeah, I was just laying there. All right, we good? Yeah. Yeah. What time did she come in? Early, I don't remember. Had to be it was still dark. So it had to be yeah. Did she turn on the light when she came in? I don't remember. She did or not. I do remember the cop coming in and shining a flashlight around so the light must have been off. All right, Chase, what do you got? Don't just give you a quick technique here that you can see in the video and you can actually use. This is what's called a simple question. He's like, was it dark? And he says, I don't think it was dark, but he continues to provide more information or Dr. Phil asked, when was it? And he says, I don't know, but continues to provide and silly and silly area information that is not relevant to the question. And I think this speaks to his upbringing and it can really illustrate how a person is going to behave the rest of an interview for all of us when we interview somebody. If we ask him a simple question, they continue to provide more information. That's not deceptive, but I know that my technique is going to change down the road in how I ask questions. Greg. Yeah, so a couple of things. What I see here is a bit of anxiety about how he's performing with Dr. Phil. I mean, you see that taffy pulling with his eyes, you know, trying to like get get you to buy into whatever he's saying. Not because he's lying, but because he's uncertain. Bites in the side of his mouth a little bit, that grooming piece, not because he's lying because he's uncertain how he's felt. And if you're not sure that when he does that goofy little that's a request for approval. That is a that is a confirmation glance. That's whatever you want to call it, but it shows confusion in his face. And he's literally with his face saying, does that make sense? You can't miss it. I mean, he's really worried about how this guy is going to treat him. And he does rifle through his memory. If you see his eyes rifle around his head in different places, I got it. First of all, he's nine. If you ask most nine year olds what time it was early, because they're not going to think in terms of time. And so it's a good question for Dr. Phil because it forces him to think it's a style that he's adopted that works for him with all those euphemisms and stuff he uses. I just see a kid who wants to make this guy happy. That's what I see. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, exactly the same. He's worried he's in front of a high status figure and he wants to get it right, but he doesn't have the data for him. And so and so he's just he's taking all the help he can get from Dr. Phil and Dr. Phil's helping him. He's going, you know, what time was it? Yeah, I don't quite know. Well, it must have been early. Yeah, I'll go with that. I'll go with I'll go with early. Yeah. And so and so then you even see some disgust for his inability to come up with the certain data that the interviewer is asking for the big thing that comes out of me for me here is that he's responding to status here. And it's so important for him to get things right for somebody of this this status. Already, I think his memories are getting muddled and there's a lot of kind of compression happening of of of time. You know, in the last story, he put two things, you know, very close together, and I think that's why we got that immediate eye movement here. Dr. Phil's kind of helped him spread it out and gone, well, they must have been some distance apart. And he's going, yeah, like an hour, three quarters of an hour. Like he just doesn't know he doesn't have that that that timeline there. So I think he's he's under pressure and he's doing his best in these circumstances. Still, we have that again, that slight smile that none of us are really expecting for the circumstance. But for him, it's quite usual for him to have that slight smile. And again, look to the corners. It's not the smile of pleasure. It's the smile of some other things, more likely the smile of I want to get this right for the high status person. It's a smile of application, I would say. Scott, what do you got? We see his stress is jacking up a little bit. As his hand starts squiggling around over here, he does that a lot. If you'll notice his fingernails are a little bit long, doesn't mean he doesn't take care of himself, but apparently he likes that kind of thing because they are a little bit long. But his hand gets over there and visits a little bit. Also, when Dr. Phil, I thought I asked a great question. He said, did she turn the light on? That's when he freezes. That's when everything stops. And he goes in. That's when we see his eyes rifle around and they're looking for information trying to think and he doesn't remember whether she did or not. You know, she must have, you know, but then he says, again, his chase talks about where he's narrating the story. He shows how the cop was was, you know, the I think he says the cop was shine later on. He remembered that part. But you guys have covered pretty much everything I had on here. But this is this is the biggest smile he's had so far. That's one that goes up that goes up the large to this point. But that's it. I think you guys got everything. Well, a couple of things and we're talking about smiles. I think I think it was a man who said it's the most complex of all human expressions is a smile. I mean, there are nine different kinds of smiles for a member of the number. But chimps smile and show their teeth from terror. So if you don't project on to him that what we are seeing is, hey, I'm trying to hide something, hey, then you get an entirely different thing. So yeah, I saw the same movement. I think if we can keep our minds open and forget how creepy the smile looks when you're talking about death, you'll see a different thing. Yeah, I agree with you. The reason it's it's going to be creepy is when is is our instinct defaults to negatives when it doesn't know why something is happening. So we've been presented here with a boy smiling around being questioned about his sister's death. We in our minds can't work out why would you smile? So our instinct goes because you've done something bad. It's it's safer for us to default to negatives rather than default to positives and go, you know, a positive view of it would be he's just trying to put plate the person of high status because he's under pressure. And that's what he does to his teachers, his youth club leaders, his father, his mother, anybody of status. He's going to he's going to smile, you know. Yeah. And that smile when we're talking about the things we're seeing in his smile and Mark keeps saying it's not the right counterinkles. That's the lateral canthus. That's that's little muscles here on the side. And your brain makes those things go at an angle like this. When you squint, they come down like this. But when you do it, when your brain does it, they come in an angle like this. They kind of squish in. That's what we're looking for in there. And that's known as that's part of what's known as a Duchenne smile. That's where you've got the obituary ocular down here. Those old muscles push up. We're not seeing that in his smile in this next video. He's got a huge one. And this is going to be the biggest smile. I think he has the whole thing. And what we're seeing is his teeth are going to come together like you guys are talking about, and it's almost that animal animalistic fake smile. So you smile and a regular smile, then you fake smile. Everybody you go, that's the fake smile. So what we're seeing there is a combination, I think of fear. And and just trying, as Greg was saying earlier, to please Dr. Phil, try to make everything copacetic, make everything smooth, because he's a little bit nervous. So I'm going to talk my part out for the next video. Yeah. And Desmond Moran, Moran's, gosh, Desmond Morris referred to that smile as the smile of deference when he refers to primate behavior. Yeah. All right. And that's Chase Hughes, author of the number one bestseller, the ellipsis manual, talking about Desmond Moran. Zero. Oh, man. What time did she come in early? I don't remember. It had to be it was still dark. So it had to be. Yeah. Did she turn on the light when she came in? I don't remember. She did or not. I do remember the cop coming in and shining a flashlight around so the light must have been off. How long after she came in before the police officer came in? Under an hour. So she comes in and were you asleep when she came in? Did she wake you up? She woke me up. And she's running around your room saying, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. What else did she say? Did you know she was looking for Jaminé? I remember saying, where's my baby? Where's my baby? All right. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, yeah. So you'll you'll see it on she woke me up. You'll see him look to the side. You'll see the eyes widen significantly. That moment when he was woken up, he was scared. You'll see again. Fear on where's my baby? Where's my baby? And you'll see him dig his fingers into the soft part of the flesh here in order to create his own stimulation because the stimulation of that event is out of control for him. I think what we're looking at here is somebody trying to still manage the intense fear that must have happened in that in that situation. I would I would imagine because of the intensity of the mother's behavior, the voice. Do you hear how he goes? Where's my baby? Where's my and how soft he is? It's nothing like anybody would say, where's my baby? Where's my baby? He's gone almost to the opposite side of that so that he doesn't have to deal with the intensity of that that moment. Out breath on under an hour. I think there's an out breath at the head because it's like, I don't know. This is stuff that I don't have the answer to. And, you know, he's upset with himself but not being able to go. You know what? I got the stopwatch out. And, you know, how old was he when this when this happened? Nine. Nine. Yeah. He's not able to go. Well, as a nine year old, I always. Oh, no, Mark Sprouse. OK, what does he look like he's doing? Let's break that down. And Greg, you're muted now. Seems OK. Let me just let me just try and go back. Yeah, you're going to. No, I think we make up a name for that move. Swahili Milkmaid. I think he just won the lottery. Look at him. Wow. So Mark, I agree with you for sure. And I think, you know, the smile is his baseline. That's that's what he's doing here. It's his baseline in this. And in another video, if you watched another one of our videos, you've heard us saying that people who say, I remember blank, I remember blank are more likely to be deceptive. But in this case, Dr. Phil uses that word in the question. So that takes away from us all probably saying that this is deceptive because he's saying, I remember that something happened. And just as a note here, his eyes kind of retreat to this five o'clock position when when you're watching him. So they did this when he was being asked a question. And they did this specifically when he was a little bit nervous when he break any broke eye contact with Dr. Phil, it went down and to his left when he was nervous and uncomfortable. So just make a note of that, Scott. Yeah, I did the Shane markers and everything. Last time I shot my mouth off. So, Greg, what do you got? Oh, yeah. So, Chase, I think one thing that you've already you started to mention, you're going to go back and watch videos that we've said before. When a guy says this, we are suspicious because it's not in their baseline. There's a deviation. This guy's got a baseline. Think we lost, Chase? No, you're you're glitching a little, Chase. But I'll go back. So, Chase, I think you can't say enough that we in past times have said this means that I would dig in further because it something changes in their baseline. But if you ask a question, hey, do you remember? And I say, yeah, I remember that that's an answer. That's not a way to hide time, a way to stall. So he's not stalling here. He's just trying to answer. What I see here is confusion. I see, hey, I don't know how I was I was nine. And I see him trying to answer what Dr. Phil's asking, but just not having the capability. So when he says under an hour, he's looking to see if is that good enough? And that left down what you're calling the five o'clock is that internal voice. Hey, how do I answer this question in a way that makes sense? I don't look stupid. Remember, he's not just talking to Dr. Phil. This guy's talking to us to the entire world. First interview he's given. So he's keenly aware of that. He's keenly aware this is going to be a hot topic. I do see him walking through. He does that adapter piece. She woke me up the minute Dr. Phil gives him anything to grasp that because he's confused and doesn't have the information he fills it in. So he's like, yeah, yeah, she woke me up. He's following that. Now, could that be deception? Absolutely. It could be deception. But why would he be deceptive about that? We're seeing a pattern. We're seeing a baseline. We're seeing a way this guy communicates. And that will be important when he's asked the hard questions. How long after she came in before the police officer came in? Under an hour. So she comes in and were you asleep when she came in? Did she wake you up? She woke me up. And she's running around your room saying, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. What else did she say? Did you know she was looking for John Bonet? I remember saying, where's my baby? Where's my baby? Ready? Yeah, let's move along. Excuse me? You fell? What do you think about that? I think, well, I asked my dad and we did this for him. He wanted me to let him have him in the basement, so I think someone took a very quiet way. He put it down and said, you need to come and help. You have some death. You think that's how she died? I don't think so. What do you think you're saying there? Well, I think, I mean, she's asked me what happened to my sister. Like, well, she was killed and she keeps kind of going deeper. She's like, well, like, what do you think happens? And I'm like, you know what happened? She was killed and she asked me what I would think. And so I guess theorizing what happened. And I think I felt a little awkward talking about it. And I think it was just something that I thought everyone knew. And so it's like, why are you asking me about this again? Right. All right, Chase, what do you got? Yes, it's interesting to watch someone watch their own childhood. And let's very quickly touch on his childhood. He had something that a psychologist might refer to or would refer to as scatolia, where he would rub feces around the house or rub feces on other people's belongings. He even did it to Jean Bonet's candy that she got for Christmas one time. And the scatolia is tied to autism. There's not a whole lot of research tying that together. But there are some academic studies and some good scholarly articles that tie those two together. And it's typically seen as either a cry for help or some form of aggression. And I think in his case, especially seeing how he did it, that it was some form of aggression towards Jean Bonet. And I know that this video has been talked about ad nauseam. But I think it's interesting when she's very at the very beginning, when she's starting to get to the point where she's asking him, what do you think happened? He's hitting himself in the head with the video game. So I don't think we're seeing deception here, but I absolutely think that we're seeing some kind of concealment. I think something is being concealed here. And one of the reasons I think so is because any of us, myself included, if we look at even just a photograph of our younger self, even if it was just a few years ago, we are seeing the insecurities, the struggles, the secrets, the tiny little things we did that we're ashamed of in that human being that nobody else can see when they see that photograph. But we are seeing all of those things. So he is seeing all the knowledge that he has. He's seeing the insecurities. He's seeing what he's trying to hide. We're always trying to hide something. Everybody wears a mask of some sort when we present ourselves to the world. And the video is very revealing, but especially to him. It's revealing. And he sees all those secrets that he thinks other people can probably see those secrets. That that would happen to almost any of us. But he uses. An increased amount of removal and softening and ambiguous language in this video. And I'm just going to cover that really quick. I'm going to go through in order the words that he uses specifically in this video. He says, I think I mean like, kind of like, like, like. So I guess theorizing might have, I think a little, I think it was just like. And that one response. So I think he's. Removing certainty so that anything that comes out or any question that Dr. Phil asked that's pointed can still make his statement relevant because he's taken so much certainty out of it. So we are seeing some form of concealment here, but not a lot of deception. Scott. All right. This is the video we see the most moving in his body for an extended period of time. His legs are jiggling. He's moving his hands around as you're watching. He's going back and forth like this as he jiggles his leg. That's all normal, but he's getting rid of that that built up stress and tension from watching that video like Chase has covered. And then at the same time, he's going to be on TV and then being asked that question. So it's a lot of stress is getting rid of. We hear that at the very beginning of it, we hear him blow out that big breath that before he starts, he's very demonstrative when it comes to releasing his stress. So that's that's another thing you'll see a lot of times in autistics or people on the spectrum as well. And at the end, of course, we see that discussed look that he makes because he didn't want to ask that question. That's a horrible question, especially for a nine year old. But at that point, it had to be asked. That's a process you need to go through as part of the protocol of how you handle those situations. So that's what I got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it takes it very, very literally and reports on his literal taking of it. So what do you think happened? The question is somewhere in imagination or looking at options. He says, I know, I know what what happened, which is true. He doesn't know what what happened. Or certainly, you know, it's been reported to him and he has maybe seen a body. I'm not sure. Certainly he's potentially investigated a bit, been in a funeral at this point. He knows she died. OK, and then I I think and he goes back into his area of possibility and imagination, but he doesn't know the answer to how this this happened. So he defers to a figure of authority to his father and he goes to the idea of the basement. So again, he can't answer the the question of like, how did this come about? But he can answer if he defers to authority where it happened. And so he goes to that area there. You know, essentially, he doesn't have the answers to the questions that are being asked here. I would suggest there is then a big difference between what he knows. He says, I know and what he's having to theorize around where he says at the end. Well, probably, probably this happened. Now, what I think is really special about this is we are seeing him doing just like he's doing in the older version of himself, taking on the part of the characters. In this play, so we see him enact going down into the basement. You see his body wobble from side to side as he's I think he's kneeling there, but he's still able to go. You know, somebody took her down the basement. OK, he takes on the character of that part. We don't see him act out how if she was led down or if she was carried down. He says it was probably silent and they went down there. But there's no idea that he knows how or has an idea of how she went down there. He then enacts a knife and then a hammer. Both of them have done the same. He doesn't act out where they're taken from. He just he's just got a tool in his hand. And for him, a knife and a hammer, they all work like that. Now, you know, we might speculate that if you were part of this situation, you might be seeing how he's enacted other stuff. He's been there with with torches and been a police officer. He's been there in bed later on. He's pretty good at acting stuff out. He signals to where to his mother, where his mother is. So he's really good at painting the picture, but he can't as a child paint this picture, which would make me suspect he he doesn't know he doesn't know what happened. Yeah, he has some knowledge that he's got from other people, but he personally is not able to see the picture of of how she died. And therefore he's not going to act it out. Now, to chase his point, this whole idea of of of, you know, using feces. Yes, in the animal kingdom, it's absolutely used as a territorial signal. We still use it in the in our human world. We will often talk when we when we're talking about violence, we'll use words aligned with feces. We're going to throw all that we can at that. OK, this idea of throwing it, distributing it, it marks out territory. So yes, there could be some issues of territorial aggression that go on. And and and I think that's why later on in this episode, you'll you'll see him not quite be able to answer questions around doing harm, not quite being able to be certain about has he not done any harm. And we'll come to that later on. But I think Scott, are we over to you? Scott, what you got? Oh, sorry, Greg, where you got? So I always say every one of us is nothing but a two year old covered in scars and hair. That's what we are. We're just an onion. We keep growing and growing and growing. We get the opportunity to see him as a child. And his communication style is not dramatically different than now. It's evading eye contact, not looking you dead in the eyes when he's talking. He's uncomfortable. And I'm going to say this to everybody watching you. If your childhood were dredged up and every stupid thing you ever did posted in the newspapers for 20 years and then you see that video, what do you think you're going to do? You're probably going to feel very uncomfortable. Watch him and watch him sink back into self. He goes away, Scott, you're dead on. He barriers and adapts what I call sacred spaces. The holiest is the safest place we can go. I make myself a place comfortable and then I adapt. You know, as we always say, adapters are a way to make the uncomfortable comfortable. It's a way to release nervous energy and it's a way to take control of the unknown. So you see discomfort and it culminates in that disgust. You see, when she asks the question, but he's adapting, he's moving his feet and legs. I think there's some regression and maybe even some arrested development. Guys, I'm no psychologist, but this guy, you see him when he gets into this, start to go back into a different place. And even his cadence and shift, he shifts away, he responds to Dr. Phil. I think it's a bad place. And I think he's put back in that space from that time. Now, none of that means he's guilty or innocent of anything. I would, if I were in an interrogation with this guy, I would then take advantage of it. Now, I'd lower my voice and start asking him a few questions about, tell me about that day. He doesn't remember any of this. He doesn't remember all of the details about when it happened, what times. One thing, one other good indicator for me. A nine year old doesn't talk about people silently moving. He's heard this from a parent, from someone who has used those words. Guilty knowledge we use in interrogation all the time. When a person has a word they shouldn't have. A nine year old using a word like silently now, of course, he's evolved it to now. But that's when he's there and he's a child saying silently. That's not nine year old speak, typically. Hey, they were really quiet and they did this or whatever. But that's not the details that a kid thinks up typically. So I don't care, get kids. Been around a few of them was one. I can remember being a little kid. You don't think quite in the same way you do as an adult. And Chase, we talk about it all the time. Every time you open, you edit. So you can see him sitting there, getting very discomfort, a lot of discomfort, blocking himself in, going back into a state where he was there. And he's seeing all that horrible stuff. So is he uncomfortable? Yeah, would I poke into him? Yeah, because I want to know why he responds the way he does. But we're seeing his baseline as a child mirrored in his adult behavior. It's all I got. Well, I asked my dad, we could be friends, we wanted him. But I thought we would be in the same thing. So I think someone is a very quiet man. He told dad that he needed to come and help. He looked so bad. You think that's how she died? Maybe he was very happy. What do you think you're saying there? Well, I think she's asked me what happened to my sister. Like, well, she was killed and she keeps kind of going deeper. She's like, well, like, what do you think happens? And I'm like, you know what happened? She was killed and she asked me what I would think. And so I guess theorizing what what happened, I think I felt a little awkward talking about it. And I think it was just something that I thought everyone knew. And so it's like, why are you asking me about this again? Right. OK, are we good? Yeah, all right. There still are people that believe that you killed your sister. What do you say about that? Look at the evidence or the lack thereof. Part of their rationale, these people say you are the only one that your parents would go to the links that they went to to cover up everything that happened. They're talking about fabricating this ransom note. They're talking about if she was strangled in causing the head injury. All of this cover up was all done to protect you because they didn't want to lose two children. That's their theory. I don't know to say that because I know that's not what happened. There's there's been a few people that said that's not even physically possible for a nine year old to do that. Like, you won't find any evidence because that's not what happened. I know I didn't do it. OK, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so he starts off by accessing a motion when Dr. Phil starts this this path. This is an attack of sorts. Now, Dr. Phil is not a jerk. He's just saying boom, boom, boom, but it is an attack of sorts. There's an interesting thing that happens in his face when he realizes an attack is his face goes slack. It's a deviation in baseline. That's his stress face. You see it really just go slack. You don't see the smile anymore. He uses up. He does. He does declare his innocence. I didn't do it and he does a contracted. It's not the non-contracted denial. He has a smile of disgust or distaste. Mark, you'll call it a bitter taste. That smile of disgust or distaste. And if you watch him, he is very strong to say I didn't do it. We also always will bring up when they say evidence. But he further clarifies to say, you're not going to find any evidence because I didn't do it. And then his body language says, what else do you want me to say? Everything you could possibly do, both shoulders up, palms up, face up. All that is congruent messaging to say, I got nothing. This is it. That's what I got. Scott, what do you get? All right. Well, this is this is where I really started feeling sorry for this kid because he's he's talking to Dr. Phil, he's resting on his hand and just that when he starts asking that question, when he says a lot of people believe that his hand goes down and briefly, just before it cuts away, you'll see contempt because he asked contempt for those people that are saying that about him. And you've got to pay really close attention to that. Maybe I'll put I'll put that in so you can see a little bit better. And when he says, yeah, that's when we say see a full on contempt in his face at that point and contempt is the expression with just one side of your. It's the only asymmetric facial expression. So when one side of your face goes up now, it looks like both sides are going up, but take a look because one side goes up just a little bit more than the other on that. So we're seeing full on contempt at that point. Now, there's going to be some people out there or there'll be a person out there that says, oh, we see him turtling. We see his head go down as he's talked about that. And that's what you see when someone's in the middle of being deceptive or if they're getting ready to steal something or if they've done something wrong to see that head go down. That's not what we're seeing. We're not seeing turtling there. What we're seeing is almost a recoil. We're seeing his head go back. You know, he's not going back to his head isn't going down to guard his to guard his neck, his chin isn't going down. We've seen him almost recoil. It's very slow, but you really got to pay attention and you and you'll see it. So all these things I always look for. It's the reason this is jumping out to me. So it's not turtling. It's he's just recoiling at that point. Chase, what do you got? Yep, you guys have covered pretty much everything. But I think it's important to see he also when he that question starts getting asked, we have exit search. He his eyes go to eight o'clock and I the layout of that room is pretty clear. The exit's over right where his eyes are looking. And that's that's what that deviation from his normal eye movement is. And his eyes when he's being asked the question and right before he starts to respond, move to his normal position for his baseline for every video I could find of him, which is three o'clock for you looking at it, which is three o'clock. And everything there is synchronous. There's not asynchronous or non synchronous behavior with body movement and the words that he's saying, Mark. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, it's such a shame that that that shoulder drop there because he's doing his best to hold himself up and somehow his wrist gives out or, you know, the tension there just gives way at that point where this, as Greg says, this attack comes. I think I think he suffers a little bit in in the public's mind from the same thing that his mum suffers from, which he's not that likeable. He's not easily likable. And especially at that point of look at the evidence or lack of lack of lack thereof, it comes out with a strength of voice and a vocabulary that we haven't really heard from him before. I think he's heard that from somebody else. I think that's him becoming a character, reciting something because it's such a different pitch. And I think it hits us so strong, it's so confident that as a public, I think we push back on that because we don't like his confidence at that point that there is zero evidence for him being involved at the level that people kind of think he is or maybe even hope he is. I'm not quite sure. So we like his mum. He's just not likable. I think the other thing I want to point out is there's no resume statements from him. There's nothing of like I wouldn't I'm not that kind of person. You know, I'm not that kind of brother. There's nothing like that. He tries to defer to things that might have authority around that. Even stuff of like, well, there are several people who said just a nine year old won't be able to do that. We know everybody knows that nine year olds can do all kinds of stuff. But he's now kind of grasping at straws of where can he find some kind of status figure to back him up around this? I think by the end of it, you know, we do see that double shoulder shrug. And he's truly resigned to the idea of I've got nothing more to give you. I don't know what to do or what to say anymore. It's utter resignation at the end, defeat at the end, I would say. That's all I got on this one. Yeah, a couple of things, guys. Watch the video again and watch the still images of him at the funeral net. He's got that smile face. It's just the way he looks. It's just part of it. The other thing is, Mark, you started to hit it. We look for things like Holy Ground is God is my witness. We look at this list of things that he's not doing. And we're looking for clusters of behavior. So yeah, he's got some. Does he have some weird behaviors? Yeah, there's he's odd in his behavior. That doesn't make him a killer. That's the piece that we have to get our heads around. Yeah. There still are people that believe that you killed your sister. What do you say about that? Look at the evidence or the lack thereof. Part of their rationale, these people say you are the only one that your parents would go to the links that they went to to cover up everything that happened. They're talking about fabricating this ransom note. They're talking about if she was strangled in causing the head injury. All of this cover up was all done to protect you because they didn't want to lose two children. That's their theory. I don't know to say that because I know that's not what happened. There's there's been a few people that said that's not even physically possible for a nine year old to do that. Like, you won't find any evidence because that's not what happens. I know I didn't do it. We good? Yeah. Let's clear this up once and for all. Did you do anything to harm your sister, John Bonnet? No. Did you murder your sister, John Bonnet? No. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so the first question there is is kind of, I don't know, whether there's such a thing, but for me, a reverse Barnum statement. You know, did you do anything to harm your your sister? Well, of course you did. Of course you did. I mean, I've done things that have harmed my brothers and sisters. Anybody who says I've never done anything that's ever harmed a sibling who's like, of course you have your brothers and sisters like it happens, you know, all the time, even if you didn't think it happens. They think it happened. So he's being put in a bit of a corner around this one. But still, it's a relatively strong denial there. But when you put it against the denial of did you did you murder your sister? I think I'm not sure whether that's the exact question or not. We then get alongside that the full shake of the head that goes alongside that. So I think what we're seeing there is the competition of one question, not you can't really answer the first question in any truthful way, I believe. The second one is way more forceful. So I think there's a there's, you know, that's interesting to look at. I think what people worry about is the look and the maybe little bite of the lip that we get, tiny and the tiny look afterwards after that. That's him just seeking approval from the person of status. He wants the person of status to go, OK, fine. I, you know, will take that from you. So it is a look for approval from status, not a look from a buy in my my story on both counts on that one. And again, you know, that's that's that's the problem that glance for approval at the end is going to easily look like something a furtive glance, which has something devious behind it. I do not believe it's furtive. I do not believe it's devious. It comes from a place of just a kid wanting to get it right. And who's on the on the brink of, you know, they've got nothing more to give. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so much like what you saw, there's a piece that you could say they're fading facts because he's quiet. No, I wish, Doc, I wish you would have said, why should I believe you didn't harm or kill your sister? That would give us more narrative. But I think he already by this point realizes this guy's not that guy. He doesn't chase you at it early when a person gives you information voluntarily and you ask enough questions along the way. You know where he's going to stop. You probably can't get any more out of him than that. These yes, no questions or interrogation speak leading questions eliminate his ability to go much further. I see distaste and I see apprehension when he bites his lip as he's trying to figure out how Dr. Phil perceives him. He purses his lips a little bit as he's thinking. And now I'll give you my guess. My guess is this guy's somewhere back in his head. He's got some either regression or rested development or something going on. I can't say he's on the spectrum or where or what. But there's certainly body language that makes me think of not adult behavior in many cases that he's been around a different world than I have. I don't know where he got to this point. But I don't see I don't see him trying to hide. Hey, I did it and I'm trying to hide. I don't see it. I don't see it at all. Now, I'll also say this. I say this a million times. Here's a million one. I can see certain things in body language that make me want to go ask the next question and get the next piece of information. I can't read his mind. He could be a genius who is hiding everything. But what I see based on body language are things that would make me ask him that next question and probably get him to just kind of start to come and bolt it a little bit. That's that's it. That's what I see. Chase, what do you see? Yeah, I think a lot of body language. Pundits, I think Mark calls them. Well, I think it's it's like the guy with the hammer thinks everything's a nail. So we tend to think that this is like the end all be all of body language, but not at all. This is a very small tool in a lot of our toolkit here. This questioning techniques are ten times more effective at detecting or getting to the truth than body language. Yep, it's my opinion. Yep. And if you're ever asking somebody if they did a crime, it's ten times better to say something softer than kill. So it's always better. So if you're asking an interrogation question or you're trying to see if someone did something, it's it's you're more likely to get a response. If you say hurt or injure or something like that, he did actually attack his sister with a golf club before this, as far as what I read online, we're not the forensics panel. It didn't happen in the video, so I'm not going to go into it. So we we've all hurt siblings, especially if you're an older brother. I am an older brother. And I've hurt my sister many times, pushed her down on all kinds of stuff. But he says no there and he's moving. But when he realizes this tough question is coming, his eyes immediately, this is the first thing you're going to see when the video starts back up again, go back to that seven eight o'clock exit search scan to look towards the exit because he knows this question is going to come. I'm sure he knows that he's been told we're going to ask you some tough questions and there's some severe discomfort shifting between his five and seven o'clock positions and then back to Dr. Phil here and his head shaking no and saying no don't occur simultaneously. So they're asynchronous, but that is only one or two indicators here of high stress. Remember, there's no body language for deception. There is no body language for deception. I don't care what you see on LinkedIn. It doesn't exist. I touch my nose. I've got a big nose. So Scott's a big liar. Yeah, I'd be a big liar. I hit my back and just what I'm talking to move my hands by illustrators. Hit my nose too much. Sorry to step in, but I had to. I mean, there is one interesting thing that I found in here. I had to go get a 1080p version of this video and blow it up. And then I had to download a program that's made for radiologists to perform measurements on things. His pupils dilate one millimeter when he's making the denial. And if you if you look real good and if our if our video is pretty high quality, when when Scott puts it up there, you'll be able to see it and you can actually see it just dragging your your mouse back and forth doesn't mean deception. Everything else points to baseline deviations of stress and not baseline deviations towards deception. And there's not a big enough cluster here for him to even reach the threshold of a score of eleven on the behavioral table of elements. Scott. All right, you guys have covered just about everything. But something I found interesting in this is he's got his hands together. They got him clasped together there between his legs and his sweaters pulled down to cover his wrists, as we all know, when someone feels good about being around someone, especially females, when they see men they're trying to impress or want to get along with better, you'll see their their wrists exposed a little bit more and they'll show their wrists more. In this case, they're covered up all the way down to where his thumb starts almost. So it may be that he's cold, it may be that he feels unsafe and maybe where he's just over everything so far and just trying to get as hard as he can be comfortable because these things take a long time when you're talking about those things, especially in a TV interview and going back to his one word answers. And like Greg was saying, he does say when he answers, it's that one word. It's fairly quiet. But when you ask someone like that, I'm going to go ahead and say, I think he's on the autistic spectrum, the autism spectrum. You ask him a yes or no question, they'll give you a yes or no answer. And that's what you're supposed to give those anyway. But that's what he does. You give him you give him a question like that. And that's what I think Dr. Phil knew that I think that's why he lobbed that at him like that. Sort of prepped him for it and the kids saw it coming, worked his way up to it and that that's fine when they do that. That's fine. But he hates that question. That's another reason that that gets quiet as well. So you guys have kept everything on that. Let's clear this up once and for all. Did you do anything to harm your sister, John Bonnet? No. Did you murder your sister, John Bonnet? No. OK, so why don't we throw it around the room and let's give our overview of what we think happened or what we saw today when we'll compare the truth to deception. And let's say what we happened in the case. Everybody's always got their opinions on it. Let's do that as well. Greg, you want to go first? Yeah, as far as what happened in the case, I have no clue. I'm going to tell you this. When we watched Patsy Ramsey, I initially, you know, from things I'd seen in the past thought, well, maybe she did something. And there's certainly places where she appears to have some kind of guilty knowledge is that because she's guilty of doing a crime or she feels guilty because something happened, she didn't repair when I don't know. I don't know what happened in this case. But based on what I see in this video and when I watched him from a distance without really paying attention, I thought that's a creepy guy. But when you watch it and you go see it, now I'm seeing congruent messaging, not strong messaging, because it's not a strong person who's saying, no, I didn't do this and and and. He's not trying to justify. I think he's been doing this for 20 plus years to people that know him or people he runs into guarantee you when somebody meets us at a party or we walk out to get hot chicken and they see us, they want to talk about the body language and behave and they would talk about about behavior panel. When you're Burke, guess what they want to talk about? The only thing they want to talk about. It's not about the news, not about the whether it's about, did you kill or do you know who killed? So all I see here is a guy that I think is in some kind of regression. I think he has been sheltered in a weird way and didn't develop the same way. You developed or I developed. So that's what I see. I see confusing for average people, certainly. But that's it, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I only see one area that I think he's not telling us everything, which is on the question of, did you ever hurt your sister? And I only say that just because, of course, he did. Like it's just natural that that happens. That's just the law of averages says you're going to hurt a sibling at some point. So so that's the only thing that I see is as being hidden or deceitful. The rest of it, I think he's being relatively kind of brutally honest and factual around it. And I think we see somebody who is trying to dredge up this nine year old history and it not quite making sense and time getting compressed and it being quite confusing and about now kind of the end of their lifespan of being able to tolerate and keep that smile going around all of this, you know, to be in this pageant for everybody. He's getting trotted out all the time going, OK, walk up and down the platform and prove yourself and show yourself to the world. And I think he's, you know, he's got tired of it about about now. Yeah, that's that's all I got for you on that. Chase, what do you think? I think we're seeing an outlier here. I don't think there's a whole lot of deception, but I do think there are some secrets, which are different things. And I think that there's stuff being withheld and there is a potential for some guilty knowledge here, not just not just the mom, but I think I think there is guilty knowledge in him. And that's all I'll say. Scott, here's what I think happened. Well, I think I think we're seeing a lot of I think he's being honest. And a lot of that I agree with you, Chase. I think there's some guilty knowledge there. But I think that comes with trying to keep the information about his family, his mom and dad in those situations. I think those kind of people are those kind of people. But I mean, they try to keep anything about their family to themselves. They try to keep it all quiet. So not that he's aware, I think I've got to keep it all quiet, but I think he's trying to keep some extra information that he may know to himself, whether that's that's somebody in the family had to do with it or not. I have no idea. But here's what I think happened. I don't think he did it. And I think somebody else did it. And I think the mom and dad thought he did it at the beginning. That's when they conjured all the stuff up with the the ransom note and all these things, right? Then they find out he didn't do it. They realize, oh, no, somebody did come in. They see all this other evidence that shows me that somebody else did it, but they're committed and it's too late to go back. And that's where the ego comes in because they're going to say, well, we did it because of this, that's because at that point, you're full of it. They're going to say, well, maybe you did do it. So I think that's what they did. They got into it, got to sticky for him when they realized what happened and they had to stick with that, with that story. I think that's what happened. So it may sound crazy, but it's only logical explanation explanation I can come up with, with all that that's given and all that. All right. So if you like what we're doing, please subscribe. And we'd really appreciate it and hit that like button. We're trying to get as many likes as we can as well. All right, we good. Well, actually, I want to say one more thing. I want to say one more thing about you were talking about like the sleeves like this. Have you noticed in every Hallmark film that you watch Earl, who's who's having problems, you know, getting the love of her life will always show her vulnerability by bringing the sleeves down and then and then having a warm drink. I've never seen a Hallmark movie. I'm looking at it. Don't lie to us, Greg. You know, I watch them every Saturday. I cuddle up with my wrist covered. I'll walk through the room and Amber has one of those on. And the next thing you know, I'm like, what does he do? How does he work? What is she doing? What's she doing? Next thing I know, I'm sitting down watching this Dang Hallmark movie. And they're fascinating. Once you get into it, it's great. And it's these actors who are, you know who they are. A lot of times you don't know what their names are, what they've been in, you just know, you know them. It's that kind of thing. But she'll be watching us before you know it. Try it next time. When I'm watching when you're Dana doesn't watch it either. So when you walk into Winnie Cooper from the Wonder Years is in a bunch of her names. Yeah, I'm a killer. OK, yeah, we're on the same page. Yeah, OK, OK. Then there's the Good Witch. I think that's one of them. That's my favorite. The one I addicted to when I walk through, I have to stop and go. So what's going on with so-and-so? And they have this place called Gray House and they'll go to gray. And they call it Gray House. It's where they all live, you know? Or it's where that is where the witch lives. So but I can't once I get it, man, once it snags me, I mean, I shouldn't have said all that, should I have? Now we know that we know it's not good.