 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean. CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Friends of Latin America, Massachusetts Peace Action, and Task Force on the Americas, we broadcast every Wednesday. Today we're coming to you on Thursday, generally Wednesdays, but always 4.30pm Pacific, 7.30pm Eastern on CodePink's YouTube channel. And now also be found on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Today's episode, Biden's summit fizzles out. I'm joined by my CodePink Latin America teammate and Leonardo Flores, who is our Latin America policy expert and he is our co-host guest and friend of honor today. Welcome, Leo. Thanks so much, Teri. It really is an honor to be here because you've had a lot of high-profile guests over the last couple of weeks. I think I might be the lowest-profile one. No, not at all. And most important, and most important were teammates and friends. So it's always great to be in conversation with you. So for our audience, we're going to talk about a lot of things today, but all with a common thread. So we're going to talk to you about a series of events that have been unraveling since early May here in the hemisphere of the Americas in advance of U.S. President Joe Biden's summit of the Americas, which is scheduled to take place in Los Angeles, California, June 6th through 10. So let me just introduce some of these events that have unraveled. We've seen the publication of Trump's Secretary of Defense, Mark T. Esper, the publication of his book, A Sacred Oath, Memories of a Secretary of Defense during Extraordinary Times. That was published on May 10. Also on May 10, the President of Mexico announced he would not attend Biden's summit. And he said at a press conference Tuesday morning, May 10, that if they are not all there, I will not go. And of course, he was referring to the exclusion of Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela. The President of the United States has not invited those three countries to his summit. So this, I think, and it's also really important for us to couch this as a protest and not necessarily a boycott, although that may be coming. What also has happened is the appearance of easing U.S. sanctions policy against Cuba and Venezuela. And then on May 18, 23 visas were denied to a Cuban civilian delegation that was hoping to attend the Alternative People Summit in Los Angeles. Also on May 18, here in Mexico City, a U.S. summit of the Americas delegation, led by Christopher Dodd, met with the Mexican government with no results. Simultaneously in the background, all of this happening here in the Americas is the surrender of Ukrainian troops and the as of stall in Ukraine. So, Leo, we've got a lot of things in this soup in the Americas right now. So maybe let's start with Esper's book and the irony of some of the disclosures in that book, specifically the disclosures he makes about U.S. regime change in Venezuela and how ironic that is, given the reasons why Biden has excluded Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela to his side. Yeah, I mean, there are some really scary things in Esper's account. And I think the first thing to keep in mind is that Esper kind of portrays himself as the guy who doesn't want war. So here we have the most dovish, for lack of a better word, person in the administration who happens to be the defense secretary, which is a little insane. But what he recounts is that it was the National Security Council that had been pushing for a military option in Venezuela throughout 2019 and 2020 until he was fired, basically. And the key person being Mauricio Claver Caron, who was the senior director for Western Hemisphere Affairs of the NSC, the National Security Council. This guy is now the president of the Inter-American Development Bank. And yet what Esper recounts is that he was basically potentially in on the plot to plan and finance Operation Gideon. And Operation Gideon was this kind of mercenary invasion that happened in May 2020. I think it was May 5th, if I'm not mistaken. And the plan there was to have, you know, there were two U.S. Marines that came in with a bunch of Venezuelan expat mercenaries, and they were going to infiltrate the country on speedboats and then go to Caracas and kidnap Maduro or possibly kill Maduro. And, you know, when the news first came out that this thing was foiled, you saw a lot of skepticism in the media and they're like, oh, there's no way that this was real or that the U.S. was involved in it or that these were just some like crazy guys if this happened at all. But now in hindsight, after we saw the president of Haiti, Jovenel Moise, murdered by mercenaries, U.S. trained mercenaries, Colombians in this case, and in which, you know, we have evidence that there were U.S. actors involved in U.S. people and agents for the U.S. involved in the plotting and carrying out of Moise's murder. I mean, to me, it's really shocking that, you know, there hasn't been more investigation into just how involved the U.S. was in terms of this plot to assassinate or kidnap President Maduro. And, you know, he recounts several conversations in the Oval Office. At one point, he asked why though if Trump had asked why though, whether if they wanted U.S. military assistance to overthrow the mother of government, and he kind of demurred and kind of said yes, but didn't want outright say it. And Esper Quips. With body language, yes. Exactly. And Esper Quips in his book, that really what quite though, and as well in opposition, these fascists, what they wanted was for the United States to fight to the last American in Venezuela, which is kind of exactly parallel to what's going on in Ukraine, where the United States now wants to fight to the last Ukrainian against the Russians, right? So, yeah, it's a scary book and really what are scary chapter because of what it reveals. And it also, you know, there are parts of this that are redacted because I guess the Pentagon didn't want some of this stuff getting out. But he talks very clearly about how, you know, once these military options were not being considered as much, they had switched to talking about less direct options like cyber operations and covert operations. They even talked about attacking a Venezuelan port. And I bring this up because again, we saw a cyber attack on Venezuela's electric grid in 2019. We had this US Marine named Matthew Heath. He was arrested outside of an oil refinery. I think this was September 2020, if I'm not mistaken, arrested with, you know, surveillance equipment and grenade and explosives and weapons. So clearly there was something up. And there's a lot to this when, you know, when the Venezuelan government says time and time again that they foiled plots by the US, what we get from the corporate media is immediate skepticism that this can possibly be true. But now we have the Defense Secretary saying, oh, yeah, there were all sorts of shady things going on in Venezuela at the time. What's so ironic to me is that he uses it to discredit the then president of the United States versus really just framing it just coming clean that this is US foreign policy and this is how it's implemented. And it's really... Yeah, absolutely. And one of the other things he talks about is, you know, he decries the militarization of foreign policy and how during the Trump administration, the first instinct was always to use the military as basically using the military as first response rather than as a last response to criticizing Trump, the Trump administration and the Trump team again and again for doing this. And at one point, I mean, you talked about Mexico last week and too bad this book didn't come out in time for last week's show because he says that Trump wanted to bomb our drug labs in Mexico with missiles. And then when he was told that this would be an act of war, that it would damage the relationship with Mexico, that it would damage US global standing, then Trump kind of ponders at it and he says, well, they won't know it's us. They just send a couple of Patriot missiles and we won't tell them it was us and nobody will know. They just say, made in the USA on them. Exactly. So this was kind of the dangerous level of discourse that we had going on at the White House. And while I'm always very critical of the Biden administration's approach to Venezuela where he's maintained these deadly sanctions, I think that is kind of one of the key differences, right? I don't think these military options are discussed as much as they were during the Trump administration, which was a small mercy, I suppose. You know, there's something you mentioned earlier about in the meeting with the White House staff and the former Secretary of Defense and Guaido that the presumption was the body language, the innuendo in the conversation was that, and I think this was in response to the constant questioning if there's a US invasion, if the US funds an invasion to Venezuela, will the Venezuelans fight? And there was never any sort of direct answer to that and the presumption was that the invasion would be fought to the last, as you said, the last US, the last US troop. And I know you and I have talked about this for many years and when referring to the Venezuelan opposition, but not the entire Venezuelan opposition to be fair, but that for there to be a violent coup, a military invasion, any sort of incursion of that nature, you would see opposition, specifically the Guaido segment of the opposition, all of those people sitting in Miami and watching the incursion on CNN from Miami. They would not physically be there, nor would their sons or daughters or any of their family be on the ground. And it's really, for the most part, it's almost the same thing to sanctions. The biggest cheerleaders of the sanctions on Venezuela are Venezuelans who don't live in Venezuela. They're living very cushy lives, either in Madrid or in Miami or in New York and they're saying, no, what we need is more and more sanctions. We need to collapse the Venezuelan government to strangle the people, and that's the only way out. And by out, they mean that's their only way to power. And of course they're not the ones suffering. And by this point, when they had that meeting where the military option was discussed, this was after the April 30th, 2019 coup attempt by Guaido where early in the morning, I got a phone call. I was like, oh, there's a coup attempt in Venezuela and I looked online and I couldn't find anything and then I called a friend and it's like, no, there's nothing going on. Things are calm. And then finally we saw on Twitter that it was kind of staged that they had taken over a highway or overpassing Caracas and they were pretending like they had taken over this key airport just to see what the response would be of armed forces if they would join them. Obviously nobody joined them. And I think that's the key here, right, that I think the Venezuelan opposition, the extremists have known all along that there is absolutely no appetite within the opposition for a civil war because they don't have the people. They claim always to represent the majority of Venezuelans that the majority of Venezuelans are always with them. But this is totally false. And I think eventually it kind of sank into the Trump administration too, that these people don't have the majority, that there's no way that they could possibly be successful in overthrowing the government without direct West military aid or intervention. So they would fight till the last US. And it's always, yeah, it's always that demographic, isn't it? I mean, the wealthy people, that 1%. So you mentioned that this demographic that lives outside of Venezuela is very prosanctions. They're not, you know, they have the finances. They're not suffering, at least certainly not the direct impact of sanctions, perhaps family and friends back home are, but they directly are not. Let's talk about US foreign policy sanctions as US foreign policy sanctions. And I would also argue as sanctions as hybrid warfare and then in that sense of form of military policy as well, because it isn't just Venezuela. It's been Cuba for almost 70 years and Nicaragua on and off since the 1980s and now definitively with the enactment of the Renacer Act last September or just before the elections, presidential elections in November of 2021. So in the lead up to the summit of the Americas in September weeks away now, we have seen I guess sort of what the appearance of relaxing sanctions blockade against Cuba and perhaps the lessening of sanctions regarding the oil industry in Venezuela. Can we talk a little bit about that? Oh, absolutely. And before I go into that, in the first question you asked the second half, which was how does these revelations by Esper kind of affect the summit of the Americas or how do they relate? Well, I mean to me, when we talk about the summit of the Americas and why the United States is looking to exclude Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela, the answer they gave is that these are countries that don't respect the inter-American charter, which is one of the founding documents of the Organization of the American States that they don't respect democracy and human rights. But what Esper reveals is that they never cared about Venezuela's democracy. They don't care about Venezuela's human rights and that they're trying actively to overthrow the Venezuelan government, which is a direct violation of the inter-American charter. So this is just empty rhetoric that the United States is using for political reasons. And the political reason being that they need the votes and the money that comes from Florida and they don't want to cede this policy position or they don't want to cede Florida just to extreme right-wing Republicans. So they're trying to out-compete them in their efforts at regime change. But all of this is kind of backfiring. And all of this, I mean, is this exclusion of these three countries from the summit of the Americas is backfiring because as we've said, we've talked about on the program before, you had countries in the region are saying, no, we're not going to attend, we're going to be like Mexican President. No, I'm Dresmeno Lopez Ovalon. I think the list includes now Honduras, Bolivia, many countries in CARACOM and usually CARACOM sticks together. So with, you know, I think there's going to be a consensus in CARACOM not to attend. And I would imagine that almost every country in the Caribbean is not going to attend. And by not going to attend, I mean not sending their president or prime minister, they might send a lesser diplomat to attend. I'm Guatemala too. Guatemala? Yeah, Guatemala and Brazil, but for slightly different reasons, Guatemala more for political reasons because the US is very critical of their new attorney general and Guatemala and president wasn't having it. And Brazil, I think Bolsonaro hasn't been clear on why he's not going to come but it's probably related to the elections in the campaign that he's got going on in his own country. And because I think you'll know that they'll face massive protests if whenever he goes out to the country, this is a guy who is despised throughout the hemisphere. So in the face of this kind of backlash from Latin America from the Caribbean to Biden summit of the Americas. Well, you know, he's had to start kind of a charm offensive. And now we're seeing, you know, a relaxation of sanctions on Cuba. And this has been welcomed by many of us who are in the Cuba Solidarity movement but welcomed with a caveat and the caveat being this is a very, very small step. Right, so the among the sanctions that that the Biden administration recently eased were about visas now the consulate in Havana the US consulate is going to be more staff and they're sort of going to start issuing visas. There's going to be a limited number they're going to still be many Cubans are going to be forced to travel outside of their country in order to get a visa to the US. There's going to be steps towards family unification. They added flights to other, they lifted the ban on flights from the US to cities other than Havana, they ease some restrictions on group travel. There's some restrictions on e-commerce so maybe we'll see zoom being unblocked in Cuba, for example, and they also eliminated the limit on remittances. Again that comes with an asterisk because they still maintain their sanctions on FinCIMAX which is the Cuban agency associated with receiving remittances so unless that is lifted, what we're going to see is, okay there's no more limit on how much you can send, but you're going to have all these shady operators taking remittances and then taking a huge cut, maybe 15-20% of these remittances going towards these private corporations whereas through FinCIMAX it was a very tiny percentage of the remittances being captured. So I mean it is a positive step but I don't think it's nearly going to be enough in order to convince, for example, Mexican President Andres Manuel Opa Sobrador to come to the summit. And then similarly we had a gesture of sorts towards Venezuela. It's unclear yet how to interpret this because you know the AP reported that the lifting of the sanctions. I don't think there's been specific word, excuse me, official word yet on what the actual lifting of the sanctions are, but the AP reported that they're going to, the Biden administration is going to allow Chevron to renegotiate its license with Venezuela with the state owned oil company, but they're not going to allow them to resume operations. And they also lifted an individual sanction on a former oil executive who's presumably going to be handling the negotiations Chevron and that was this kind of a sticking point over the last several months was that they had nobody to talk to because all of the oil executives had been sanctioned by the US. So talking to them would have been illegal under US law, which is obviously ludicrous right. But one of the things that's a little odd about all of this is that the US claims that this was done with the unitary platforms blessing the unitary platform being the latest iteration of the opposition coalition that features, you know the most unitary factions, and yet they came out with a statement long not long afterwards saying that they had categorically denying that they had called for lifting of a personal sanction. So there's already infighting with the opposition because of this decision right. Which is nothing new the infighting among the opposition. That's historical. I mean, it's so historical that to me like it's just obvious but maybe for some of the listeners that they don't know that the event is up Venezuelan opposition is just split into many, many, many different factions, and that's eventually figured that out. Yeah. And then, but on the Venezuelan side, we got a statement that was significantly more hopeful, we had Delcey Rodriguez, the vice president of Venezuelan, said she tweeted this out in a kind of paraphrasing. She said the Bolvarian government of Venezuela has verified and confirmed the news the effect the United States of America has authorized us and European oil companies to negotiate and restart operations in Venezuela. So negotiate and restart, which would be a very significant change a very important change in order for Venezuela to get its economy, you know, back on track it's already kind of on track but certainly a lifting of oil sanctions would make the economy, you know, you know, go off like a firecracker in terms of growth and would really help Venezuela, you know, overcome its deficits in healthcare that has been seen as healthcare system decimated by the sanctions. So it's curious that there's kind of this disconnect between what's been reported and what the Venezuelan government is saying and I think maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle that, you know, when it comes to the European oil companies, there's no sanction to lift per say only the threat of secondary sanctions, secondary sanctions being this idea that if a company outside the US does business with Venezuela then the US can just take it upon themselves to issue sanctions on that company. But so maybe there's been kind of a back, you know, channel discussion we're saying where the that the Biden administration is now telling these companies that they're not going to be subject to secondary sanctions. That's, you know, educated speculation on my part but we'll see what comes out of it. But do you think this for the for the European oil companies is this a Biden overture towards them for having destroyed European trade with Russia regarding energy. Yeah, I think so I mean I think what we're seeing is that Europe is going to have an energy crisis and that, you know, because of sanctions say on Iran and it's still difficult for them to acquire oil and then Venezuela presents a very obvious opportunity for them to to get new oil. I think that's why in part why the Biden administration sent officials sent representatives to Caracas the first time in 20 plus years the White House and send someone to Caracas to negotiate with the government, because of this oil crisis that gas prices, are so high both in Europe and in the US. I don't know if, you know, the oil decisions are affecting, excuse me if the Biden administration is considering lifting sanctions because of gas prices here at home. I think if that had been the case if they would have done it and maybe a month or two ago, because, you know, these things taken effective there's kind of a lag time. So between now and the elections I'm not sure how much oil Venezuela can contribute to the US necessarily but certainly for Europe in the medium term, given the conflict between Russia and Ukraine access to Venezuelan oil would be tremendously helpful for them. But expensive to ship it across the Atlantic. Expensive. I mean, yeah, it's certainly more expensive to ship it across the Atlantic than to just ship it straight to the Gulf of Mexico which is where most Venezuelan oil used to go. What. Oh, gosh, how much of this. You know, we're talking in terms of, you know, this change in policy regarding US and Venezuelan oil but how much of that. You know, we're counting it in terms of consumer prices in the States and, and for Europe, but how much of this decision do you think is the pressure from like Chevron and other US based oil companies that they perhaps are losing market share. So market share. Yeah, absolutely. So Chevron is typically kind of when you see corporate reporting about this, the name Chevron is being the only oil company doing business in Venezuela with with oil fields and that's not quite true there's many others that provide services related to oil like, for example, Halliburton. So there definitely has been pressure from Chevron from some of these oil companies to lift the sanctions specifically, you know, just before leaving office actually the Trump administration, let a license that Chevron had gotten. This license laps preventing Chevron from doing business in Venezuela before they were still being able to do business, but instead of, you know, it was kind of an oil for that type swap where instead of getting paid directly with with money for this oil what was doing was paying down debt that it had that it owes to Chevron. And this debt issue and this is a slightly different issue. There are many bond holders in the US who have Venezuelan bonds that haven't been able to pay and I know that they're also, you know, putting a lot of pressure in on the administration to lift some of these sanctions so that they can get their bonds reimbursed. Kind of like what happened in in Argentina, a number of years ago with those water funds, same, same scenario kind of setting itself up, possibly. So we with Cuba with Venezuela, we're seeing perhaps lifting this relaxation I don't even mean of sanctions from the Biden administration towards Cuba and Venezuela but still no formal invitation from the President of the United States to the president of Cuba or the president of Venezuela or the democratically elected president of Venezuela and the stand up for US puppet, it will perhaps be invited. Why don't he still he hasn't been invited yet has he that there's pressure from Florida. And you're referring to Juan Guaido, the so called interim president, the puppet. No, I mean, you have the extreme right wing Marco Rubio pressuring for Guaido to be invited but if Guaido goes and certainly there's going to be a massive cause from Latin America. So I think that's going to be a non starter. I know we haven't seen any indication that that these leaders going to be invited. My, you know, my theory is that with the Biden administration might cave on Cuba, because you know, the Obama administration had, you know, had put so much emphasis on the renewed ties with Cuba and restoring relations. And I think because it's seen as though, you know, Cuba is the somehow the least objectionable of these three countries, and that's by administration might be able to weather the storm so I think they're going to try to divide and conquer in the sense of maybe they'll invite Cuba but keep the bands on as well in Nicaragua and then enforcing, you know, a difficult decision for some of these countries like Mexico and on Jersey and Bolivia. But I'm not I don't know that that's going to be the case because it's getting pretty late in the day in terms of you know the summit of the Americas is supposed to start on June 6 in LA. And by, you know, made May already we don't think these countries haven't received invitations. In fact, it's not even clear that any invitations have been sent out, because the president of Guatemala said that he hadn't been invited yet before he claimed that he was going to boycott it. So, so they're so they're not exactly on the ball to State Department in terms of inviting. Yeah, they don't know what they're going to do. Absolutely. So everything's pointing to to this summit of the Americas being a total, you know, a total failure, right. And that's a me, you know, it's really curious because what isn't going to be a failure what is the drawing a lot of attention from social movements and organizations and people on the ground is the alternative summit which is going to be the people summit for going to be held in LA where the official summit is as well and it's going to be held from June 8 through 10. And where is that going to be for our audience. Yeah, that'll be in downtown LA I don't know that the exact address has been published yet but it's going to be an amazing program. People should go to the website which is people's summit 2022.org. And once you're in there you can see all of the organizations that have endorsed with a wide range of organizations that work on regional issues and also a lot of unions and tenant unions and human rights organizations workers organizations. It's going to be fantastic and the program is looking excellent to you have a lot of panels and plenary discussions with some very important thinkers from all around the hemisphere and from youth leaders and activists so we're going to see a lot of participation from the people themselves, but unfortunately one of the other things we won't see is Cubans Cubans who had been invited by the people summit 23 Cubans specifically, including, you know, one of the designer of one of the vaccines coven 19 vaccines, an Olympic bronze medal winning wrestler, a queer Christian student leader in Cuba. And they're one of 23 Cubans who got their visas denied by the Biden administration to travel to the people summit. And my question is, what are they afraid of, what are they afraid that these Cubans are going to say at the summit. That's going to be so damning to the Biden administration. And we know what it is that they're going to say we're going to say they're going to say that the embargo is real and it is incredibly cruel. With the embargo, there were another 243 sanctions imposed by the Trump administration, which the Biden administration has yet to lift. He lifted some of those earlier this week, but you know there's still at least 200 plus sanctions that he could lift tomorrow with the stroke of a pen, but he's refusing to do it. And so it's quite a shame that these Cubans have not been invited and in fact we've started a petition at code pink to press the State Department to resent to, you know, go back on this decision and actually submit those visas. If you go to code pink dot org slash Cubans bands, you will be able to sign our petition calling on on on Secretary of State Blinken to to grant these between that out. As we talk, you know, one of the things. So it's 23 is 23 Cuban civilians. It was a civilian delegation. And those visas will not be issued. So we're, like you said, let's sign the petition and put some pressure on the US State Department to issue those visas. One of the really important things that has not been discussed in this easing over toward towards Cuba is lifting the US designation of state sponsor of terror, which is currently how Cuba is is designated in Washington. Yeah, and it's not. It's a step that the Biden administration I believe early on they said they would consider it but you know we're what a year and a half into his tenure. Yeah, and we've heard nothing yet. And for folks who don't know the backstory this is really and it totally absurd designation. So Cuba was on the state sponsor of terror lists for many years until I think it was 2014 under the Obama administration. Yes, that they were taken off the list because the Obama administration rightfully recognized that Cuba does not sponsor terrorism. And in fact, it's the other way around that Cuba has been a victim of terrorism, victim of terrorism sponsored, if not co abetted by by the United States in fact, but then the Trump administration came in and try and apply it it's what so called maximum pressure policy against Cuba, and they put Cuba back on this list, using the worst of possible excuses right. So according to the United States and this was actually at the petition of the Colombian government. So according to the US Cuba is was put back on the list because they are currently have former Colombian gorillas in Cuba that they refuse to extradite. The truth is that Cuba was a host of peace talks between the Colombian government and the FARC, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia. And as a as a mediator in those peace talks they signed this long agreement that included that the negotiators of the peace talks wouldn't be subject to deportation or to extradition that that would basically that Cuba would guarantee their safety. Well now Columbia, because you there was a change in government and because the new government led by Duque Ivan Duque who's, you know, doing terribly in terms of approval rating in Colombia. He wanted those Colombians at former gorillas back because he wanted to prosecute them and the Cuban said no we can't because this is our duty under international law to protect them, because we accepted these negotiators. We promised them that we would, you know, guarantee their safety. So, so now because Cuba is obliging by its international commitments it's being put on this list of state sponsors of terrorism. And it's such an absurd designation that politicizes this list which I don't know that it makes any sense to have such a list in the first place, if it's just going to be used for political motives. But the fact that cube was on here is totally egregious and it's something that really the, and that's the one actually that's one of the few things that Biden couldn't do right away with the stroke of the pen. He would have to order a study first and so it would be like a three month gap, but he still hasn't done it and it's not clear if he's ordered this study. So it's a real shame, you know what it's showing is that the State Department and the Biden administration, they're politicizing issues just like the Trump administration did. They're trying to divide Latin America and the Caribbean just like the Trump administration did. And while there may be differences in approach or in rhetoric specifically you know contrasting what we hear with Esper and with Trump talking about all options on the table whereas the Biden administration seems to be kind of leaning away from that. In effect, in real terms, there's very little difference between Trump and Biden administration when it comes to foreign policy in Latin America and the Caribbean. The window dressing is different. That's right. That's that's about it. Yeah, I've changed the curtains and well one all the way back. Yeah, so, so what else should we talk about what's what else I just want to remind the audience that I have put into the Twitter to my Twitter feed the link to the code pink alert about issuing the Cuban visas and also the people summit 22.org website. I'll put those in YouTube too for those of you watching on that channel, the I guess for me personally oh it's really just in closing our conversation, kind of threading the needle. As we watch you sitting in Washington DC and me here in Washington, Mexico City, how so how so much is unfolding across the hemisphere of the Americas and you and I have talked about this before and for our audience I consistently bring this up so I'm sorry if I'm saying that I do think it's really, really important. The words that the President of Mexico had to say July of last year on the 238th anniversary of Simone boulevard's birth and he's made a specific comments about the need to not necessarily completely abolish the OAS, but to revamp it so that there is an institution in the Americas reflective of all of the America, Americas. He, he hosting the Venezuelan dialogue in August and then the reconvening of select in September of 2021. And to me, what we're watching now unfold really this arc of events since July of last year, and now seeing perhaps no invitations to the summit of the Americas or if they do go out, you know, a very include exclusive group of countries being invited, which of course is antithetical to exactly what I'll talk about last summer. There really is this arc that's been laid out and specifically I would say from here in Mexico City led by the current President of Mexico. And his, you know, a rebuff man or he has, you know, saying I'm not going to Los Angeles in June, really is just one more event, and to see so many countries follow his example, his leadership and we really think we really have, you know, a whole series, not just this, this month of May, which has been filled with all kinds of stuff, but a real timeline of things unfolding and it's, in a way, it's, it's inspiring. It's hopeful, I guess, maybe that's the right better. Absolutely. And it's really great that I'm low has taken these positions during his tenure. I mean, the first very difficult decision or maybe not so difficult for I'm low because he's so principled was was rejecting us pressure to recognize Juan Guaido as president. He never did that he always maintained his recognition of President Maduro. And that was a sign that you know Latin America wasn't just going to fold to the pressure under Trump administration or not the Biden administration. So he really right now is carrying the torch for regional integration in Latin America and the Caribbean, given how kind of weakened say Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua have been from the sanctions, given the coup in Brazil, the loss of Ecuador and on the other hand now we're kind of seeing a resurgence of the so called pink tide with the you know, Bolivia, possibly Columbia, the left winning in Columbia the left winning in Brazil that the left one in Argentina obviously. And seeing the we're going to see a resurgence I think of the of the pink tide and or excuse me of this push towards greater regional integration and multi and it's pushed for multi polarity in Latin America in the Caribbean, and it will be, you know, greatly expanded if the left winning in Brazil you I mean you already had Lula talking about creating a currency for South America called the soon and you have China talking about expanding the bricks. So there are all these things going on kind of at a geopolitical level that point towards waning us influence, not just globally but particularly in Latin American Caribbean and that this is something that's kind of been happening since for 20 years now for since the first election of the world tablets. And now we're seeing that it's not just dependent on one person or one country that they're going to be other leaders who are going to step up like I'm no. And you know that's extremely welcome because it's only through that multi polarity it's only through regional integration that the Latin America and the Caribbean can hold fast against these pressures that come from the United States whether it's either military diplomatic pressure, you know if it's just against all against one country with that country is likely going to fold with I mean with the exception of Cuba that was doing it alone for many, many decades and, and but, you know, it's hard to withstand when we saw a lot of pressure come on specifically the Caribbean over the last couple of years in relation to Venezuela and, and so I'm no gives everyone just some breathing room to make decisions based on their own foreign policy based on their own sovereignty that's the key word. So let me kind of in, in closing, just throw out a thought. And it's kind of a curveball but not but but a nice one. You mentioned multi polarity. And that was, and that was a big theme in the Salah Summit September of last year, it was a kids came up regardless of the politics of the country speaking the multi polar integration of the hemisphere and the ability to through select to perhaps interface with the rest of the world so basically, you know calling for a multilateral at the very least multilateral trade, but also politics. Do you think that that is perhaps the real dip end game or and through diplomatic measures is the is perhaps the real goal here in protesting this year summit of the Americas is to kind of, you know, and I asked that because Kamala was so specific in his 24 July discourse. Last summer, his closing statements he's quoted George Washington, actually talking about the organization of America States and that perhaps it's, you know, no longer effective and it needs there needs to be a body that's as we said earlier that represents an America for all Americans. And it kind of seems to me that that's the push that's going on here. One is to recognize that the sovereignty of each individual nation within the hemisphere of the Americas and to just get rid of the whole Monroe Doctrine in practice and in in his in historical paradigm of the United States. I really do think that that almost decision to not attend if Cuba, but it's funny that I were not invited is an intimately linked with it with this issue of multi polarity. It's linked just to, you know, international law and the principles of non intervention and non interference right, because you know which is a state which is the chapter in the OAS Charter to a section. Absolutely. We're founding principles of OAS actually, and yet the US constantly interferes. So I mean the United States has a responsibility to invite every country in the hemisphere to the summit. Getting an invite to the summit isn't a prize in isn't something that is, you know, that that people that countries have to earn. It's every country has to be invited because these summits are meant to talk about regional hemispheric issues like say the pandemic, or, you know, human migration, or jobs or the environment. And how can you talk about these things if not all if all the actors aren't present. Right. And the US hasn't has a responsibility to invite them just like the US as host of the United Nations has a responsibility to, you know, accept every diplomat from every country in the United Nations. They don't always follow that but you know and they're much better at the UN that they are with the OAS and the Summit of the Americas. And Amlo's decision is totally linked to multi polarity because that I mean, I think the region has had enough of being bullied by the United States they've had enough of this false rhetoric of this weaponization of the terms democracy and human rights to really mean in practice, it only what the US wants right because it's not actual democracy or actual human rights that the United States wants. So, you know, democracy and human rights according to a very narrow definition, if and only if it also serves US interests. So, I mean, I think the, you know, I think we've seen a massive change in the region in terms of how it relates to the United States. And I know is, you know, the next step in that in that change and this push for multi polarity is going to be key. That's going to be the only way that these countries can preserve their sovereignty. The possibilities are very inspiring. And to see it playing out on the diplomatic stage is really encouraging. I mean that's leadership by example versus by gunpoint. And, and it's very, very inspiring and very, very positive. In a way, really, I think Biden's kind of dodging a bullet and it's out no goes because I can almost guarantee that I'm those more popular in LA and that he would get many, many, many more people at his speeches than and then buy it. That's for sure. That is most definitely true. So, so for our audience let's remind them you can protest Biden summit of the Americas in LA by attending the people summit people summit. You can find out 2022.org you can find out more information there. And also please let's get to the 23 Cuban civilians to that summit in LA also, and you can find that code pink alert I just just tweeted it out to all of you but let me. Let me pull it up again code pink dot org slash, you know it you wrote it. Yeah, I mean it's so egregious because the US always talks about representing Cuban civil society and looking out for the interest of all Cubans. And yet when you have this broad, you know, group of people that do represent every level of Cuban society. The US says no because you, we don't want to hear what you have to say. Yeah, it's very it's all very managed just like the media, all of it, very controlled. And Leo, it's always so it's always so great for you to join us as a guest and co host and friend. I love our conversations. Me too and best of luck in Columbia next week. Oh that's true folks I will be leaving for Columbia in several days and so you'll be seeing some WTF at least said not full episodes some video shorts from our, our electoral observation delegation there. So, so thank you everyone I just want to remind you been watching what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean code pinks weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region. We broadcast weekly generally on Wednesdays for 30pm Pacific 730pm Eastern and on occasion Thursdays or Fridays, and you can also find us on Apple podcasts and Spotify also be sure to catch code pink radio. Every Thursday morning, 11am Eastern on WBAI out in New York City and WPSW out of Washington DC that program also can be found on Apple podcasts and Spotify. So everyone will see you next week. And thank you again Leo was a terrific conversation and and and great to share some time with you. Anytime Terry thank you. Okay everyone will see you next week.