 Welcome once again to The Breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Our next conversation is going to be on the electricity tariff news. Sometime last week there were reports of a possible increase in the electricity tariff from the 1st of September. But the EKEDC and its spokesperson have come out to state that that might be false. And also in the news this morning, Festus K. Amel had stated that the government is not aware of any planned increment. We are speaking with Professor Kenneth Mouinke, he is a political analyst and professor of politics and governance at the Ignatius at Juru University of Education. Good morning Professor Ken. I hope you can hear us clearly. We are also speaking with Daga Tola from the Spokesman movement of Socialist Alternatives. Good morning Mr Tola. Good morning Africa PLOS Africa and good morning all Nigerians. Thanks for joining us. We hope we can get a better sound quality from Professor Kenneth. Let's start with Daga Tola. Of course a lot of Nigerians were worried last week. We've complained or Nigerians have complained about the high cost of leaving and of course continued increment in electricity tariff. So let me start with your thoughts. Do you think that these things are inevitable, seen the way that the country is currently moving? Would Nigerians need to always pay higher to get better electricity? Let me make it quite clear that I do not agree with that narrative. I don't think that increasing the pump price of electricity or new increase in tariff in electricity would resolve any of the contradictions plaguing this key sector. Interestingly, it's extremely very painful that the ruling class in this part of the world is not even learning any lessons from its own history and from the fact that all of these policies since they've been implemented all through these decades have not resolved any of the contradictions. The history of the increase of pump price of fuel for an example didn't just start now. Interestingly, the Bari regime, when it first came into power in 1984 to 1985, didn't follow these parts. All of the increases we have had through the austerity measure of the Shiv Shagari regime, through to the structural adjustment program of the Babangida regime and now to the policy of deregulations and privatizations which are the policies dictating all of these programs by ruling the leader has not in any way provided any increase for regular electricity for Nigerians. Interestingly, according to the World Bank statistics from the World Bank, Nigeria is still ranked 171 in a count of 190 countries. Access to electricity in Nigeria is still largely restricted to the urban areas in the population. Access of a country of 200 million plus, only 5 million Nigerians have access to water electricity. So the fact speaks otherwise in relation to these policies and programs. This singular narrative that there is no alternative to capitalism here, where the resources of society, the resources of this country can be muscled, can be employed to serve as the basis to develop the economy, to provide electricity, to drive power, to drive energy, to drive steel production, to drive the basis for industrialization of this country. Then the ruling at least on the basis of the own doctrines and philosophy will practically have no other choice than to continue with this destructive policy of further destroying the Nigerian economy, more further. Alright, Professor Kenneth Wake, you're welcome once again. Professor Wake, can you hear us? We can hear you. Okay, brilliant. Thanks for joining us once again. I want you to share your thoughts on the investments in electricity. Sometime in February 2021, there was the World Bank statement that we're assisting Nigerians with $500 million. We've also heard about the Siemens loan and Siemens, about $3 billion assistance to the Nigerian government with regards to electricity also. But this year, and in the last long while, we've had a few times than normal where the power grid collapses. Why do you think we still aren't getting it right with fixing Nigeria's electricity or power sector challenges? Yes, thank you. I get worried, especially when you talked about the Siemens contract, because that was one of the visits that our former chief of staff, Abakiri, traveled to Germany. And so when you talk about Siemens contract, talk about electricity and all that, and that reminds me of that on timely date of our chief of staff, because Nigeria needed power at all costs, and I think that's not necessarily the visit at all. So it clearly shows that Nigeria's investments in the power sector in Nigeria have been very, very slow in yielding the desired dividends. I know how much there was to sound into the power sector during the Abasanjo administration in Nigeria, between 1999 and 2007. And so, and then subsequently, a lot of investments have been made in the power sector in Nigeria, even given what we are also raising now. But power has been very, very epileptic in Nigeria, and then the issue of tariff is not about increasing the tariffs that is a problem. Nigerians are tired about these investments that are yielding little or no dividends. By now, we should be talking about having 24-hour electricity supply in Nigeria, given the normity of the funds sunk into the power sector. And so, and I know that the Siemens contract was going to last until 2024 or so, but this is 2022. And I believe that in that contract, it's still in place, and that the government is very, very serious about that contract, which will be getting updates regarding what the Siemens is doing and then what the funds that are coming from the World Bank, in order to assist Nigeria, get out of the woods. But I think that, irrespective of whatever funds that have been deployed into the power sector, if there is no political will on the part of the executive, including the literature, who does oversight on the power sector, then, and the Nigerians themselves, who should be doing what they should be doing in terms of checking the emphasis of those, or the witnesses of those who ought to do these things, then who will not realize anything. And that's why I think that this conversation today is something that should be a reminder to those who have been entrusted with this responsibility to raise up. All right, Dagatola, back to you. We, of course, have had, you know, the country has made its moves to fix the power sector. Privatization was one of them. You know, we now have distribution companies privately run. Why would you say that this might still not be working? And also, we've not still, over time, been able to generate as much as 10,000 megawatts of electricity in the country of 200 million people. Is that in any way embarrassing, you know, that we still are having these lapses, the power grid still collapses every, you know, for market days, and yet we're talking about increment in tariff? I'm extremely excited when you pose this manner of question. What we are confronting here is the contradiction in the capitalist system itself, because what is privatization? What is capitalism? It is run singularly for the purpose of making profit. And painfully for all of us, 80 to 90 percent of all of the entire resources that has been invested in electricity in Nigeria are public funds. But like Prof has pointed out, the ruling elites lack the appropriate, philosophical framework of the necessary goodwill with which to ensure that the electricity sector and indeed all sectors of the economy function appropriately. More additional loans have been procured. And you ask yourself, if we are running a private electricity-managed economy, what is the business of the state, employing the entirety of all of its trust and its resources to invest in electricity? And yet it lacks the moral will to protect that investment and ensure that the necessary electricity is what is provided. And this is why we will continue to say that there is no set-up of the Nigerian economy that is not plagued with crisis. And none of these issues can be resolved in isolation of a comprehensive interlink of all sectors of the economy. Electricity needs to be developed. Energy needs to be developed. The means of production, industrialization needs to take place. Steel production needs to take place. And none of these key vital sectors can be run effectively and efficiently without putting profit first by the private sector. And the more profit is placed first than foremost. It becomes a defeatist logic that ensures that it does not function effectively to allow the mass of the working people to assess all of these basic needs that are essential for economic development for the entirety of the mass of the people in the Nigerian society. Professor Ongweke, I'm going back to you now. We continue to have a problem. One of the things that I read up yesterday was the regulation and funding. Two major issues with the regulation, infrastructure and funding were two major issues with the Nigerian electricity sector. Quickly, let me know what you think about how the NERC can better regulate the sector and how we maybe can redirect the funding for electricity so we can achieve better results. The Nigerian electricity agency for me has not done well because it proposed that it has bad responsibility to give Nigerian government to do everything possible because it regrets the regulatory authority to ensure that power. And so what you hear every other time, the average man on the street is when you hear of the regulatory authority, you are talking about him presentary. That's what they are known for. Either they are giving a nod to him or they are not giving a nod to him. We are not interested as Nigerians about the tariff. For the average Nigerian, what we need is to see if you are showing me episodially evidence of power running, right? Through the bomb and all that. So we should have that 24 hours. I can still remember as far back as 2009 when I made the first trip to Togo in Olome. That was live, you know, 24 hours. In 2009, throughout one week I stayed in Olome. I didn't feel like, you know, the power blinked for one second and all that. In 2009. And then we are still talking about that 11 years or more down the ladder that we are still struggling with electricity. The best that we are having today is 10 hours, you know, I mean 10 hours after 24 hours and all that. That's the best. And that we are celebrating so much. And so the National Electricity Development Agency ought to see off. It's not the issue of the business tariff that matters. Nigerians are sick and tired of business tariff. What we want to see is power. We want to see power. We want to see, you know, a reflection of the normity. Oh, you are still bringing this bomb. That is showing that it's not. I mean, hey, hey. You are showing me this to show evidence of 24 hour power in Nigeria that does not, you know, does not take us to anywhere. See, for me, the National Electricity Development Agency ought to see off, you know, and then ensure that the funding in the power sector is, you know, guaranteed. The collection of regulatory practices or policies in the power sector, you know, make it possible for private investors to take off the challenge of ensuring that power is deployed to Nigeria. It is not sitting down there and telling us whether tariff will happen in September or it will happen in June. And then even the National Assembly will come up to say, oh, no, no, slow down on the charge of tariff and all that. Yes, I know that they have a responsibility after oversight. But the National Assembly has every responsibility because that is the arm of the government that is charged with responsibility of oversizing what the government is doing. It is not about stopping them or not stopping them. It's about sitting down with these guys and saying, how do you, you know, deploy your policies towards ensuring that, you know, power sector attracts more funding and not just attracting more funding, but to ensure that the infrastructure that is adequate for guaranteeing to support our supply is, you know, in place in Nigeria. And then that your policies, you know, should not be anti or anti-investors and other private investors. And so by so doing, you see a lot of people coming to look at the telecommunication today, you know, and you see how it's flowing everywhere. So what can we, you know, look at the magic that this of a firm in the telecommunication sector and apply same to the power sector. If you come, for instance, to give us the ICT protocol, you can privatize, you know, a whole lot of protocols for some, you know, local governments and other. Let the private individuals take the responsibility of distributing this power and they will let us know who they are and other. Not given the one company where you say it's the distribution company. The other one is the power generator and other. That is to the extent that Nigerians know. But if you privatize, you know, the power sector in such a way that, you know, a lot of investors will come in and then people will face different conditions and other. This competition will come in and so deregulate, you know, the power sector in such a way that we have in the telecommunication sector, including the deregulation industry, that is the short way of guaranteeing, you know, to support our power supply in Nigeria. And not the way we are going, you know, this way. And then I've said separately that it takes a political, I mean, the political wheel on the part of the executive arm of government, you know, to ensure that this thing comes before our power supply. If Nigerians are not even looking for power, we are even looking for just a thing, our sector. That will be OK for us as Nigerians because power sector drives the other sectors, you know, of the economy. Absolutely. Professor Kenneth Wynke is a political analyst and professor of politics and governance at the Ignatius Adjuru University of Education. We also spoke with Doug Dagatola, spokesman, movement for Socialist Alternative. Thank you both for being with us this Monday morning and always looking forward to having conversations with you. Have a great week ahead. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Absolutely. And this is where we will be wrapping up the breakfast this morning. Thank you so much for staying with us. If you missed out on any of these conversations, you know where to find us. It's pretty simple. At Plus TV Africa on Facebook and Instagram. And you can also find, subscribe to our YouTube channel at Plus TV Africa and Plus TV Africa Lifestyle. I am Osao Yee, Ogboa. See you tomorrow.