 Good afternoon everybody and welcome to today's webinar Express behind the curtain and A-Z of Arts Marketing with our guest speaker Matt Carvedine Palmer and which has been organized by the CIM Wales Group. If you are a university student attending today's webinar then you may want to sign up to the CIM Marketing Club. It will keep you up to date with the latest trends innovations and concepts in the marketing industry. All you need to do is hover your camera over the QR code you can see on screen and that will take you through to the Marketing Club sign up page. So I'd now like to hand over to Matt who is our guest speaker today. Over to you Matt. Thanks Phil, Pranandar and good afternoon everyone. Thanks for taking the time to join me for this session today. My name is Matt Carvedine Palmer and over the next half an hour I'm going to be giving you a whistle stop tour of marketing in the arts and cultural sector looking at some of the key issues and challenges. A little bit about my background. I hold a first class honours degree in arts management and I'm a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Marketing. Over the past 25 years I've had experience of marketing across the cultural sector both within arts organisations and as a freelancer and consultant. I'm now based just outside Cardiff in South Wales a beautiful part of the country. During my career I've held senior marketing roles at HST theatres Bristol Old Vic and Welsh National Opera and I've worked with clients including Shakespeare's Globe, the National Theatre of Scotland and Orchestra's Live. Most of my examples today will relate to the performing arts as this is where the majority of my experience has been. Okay so let's dive into the A to Z. Where else to start but audiences? Performing arts organisations tend to define these as existing, lapsed and new. As with any other sector retaining the existing audience is seen as the most cost effective but with an ever-changing artistic product offering this is not straightforward. As arts marketers we love to think that audiences are incredibly frequent attenders and are highly engaged with what we do and some are the most loyal audience members account for a significant proportion of earned income in many arts organisations. But the fact is that frequency of attendance varies wildly. For some companies it is usual for 70% of their audience to come once every five years and still consider themselves to be regular attenders. This challenges our perceptions that audiences think about us or come to us far more often than they actually do. Given this level of audience churn there is a constant need to grow the audience and reach new people especially from communities identified as strategic priorities. This might be about attracting a younger audience, a more ethnically diverse audience, people from rural areas or people living in areas of high deprivation. Audience development is also about taking audiences on a journey with us to encourage them to try new things and it's vital to have marketing representation at the highest level within arts organisations so decisions are made that take into account both the artistic offering and its relevance to audience members. The annual taking part survey suggests that around three quarters of the UK population engage in the arts in one form or another in any given year. This varies considerably from art form to art form. According to the last TGI survey before the pandemic 43% of the UK population had attended a performance in a theatre in the previous 12 months. For some art forms including opera, dance and jazz the figure is near a 10%. That's a lot of people who are not coming. According to the 2019 taking part survey the top five reasons for people not attending the arts were number one not being interested, number two not having time, number three having a health problem or disability, number four they are difficult to get to and number five they are too expensive. Now of course some people will never come they have absolutely no interest in or may even be hostile to the arts. As arts marketers with limited resources we tend to focus our efforts on those who we feel are open to persuasion rather than those who are simply not interested and part of our job is to be creative in removing these and other barriers to attendance. As the taking part survey suggests pricing alone is much less of a barrier for a lot of people than you might expect. It's much more likely to be about social exclusion and a lack of time. Over the years I've worked on everything from transport schemes for audiences in rural areas to pay what you can nights for students. Adjusting performance schedules to allow for more matinees can help with public transport issues and we know lots of people don't like being in busy city centres late at night especially in the winter. Meanwhile as arts marketers we are also guilty of creating lots of additional barriers to the jargon and language we use in our communications. We would do well to remember that the average reading age of nine in the UK means that it's all too easy to alienate exclude audiences through our copywriting. Inevitably I have to talk about Covid. The pandemic has had a devastating impact on the arts and cultural sector. Arts organisations spent the first 12 to 18 months cancelling and rescheduling performances. Audiences were brilliant, patient and generous. Many donated the value of their tickets to arts organisations that had huge holes in their income who were carrying large overheads and existing commitments. There was an immediate shift to digital activity and whilst this kept audiences engaged it wasn't for everyone and it may not have reached new people in the way we hoped it might. It's also proven to be hard to sustain now most arts organisations are producing live work again. 2021 turned out to be another very uncertain and disrupted year with social distancing, mask mandates and Covid passes all in play. Not to mention short notice cancellations and different rules applying across the four nations of the UK. Thankfully 2022 is feeling a lot more like normal and audience numbers are recovering but not for everyone. Audiences are creatures of habit and since 2020 a lot of people have got out of the habit of attending. The audience for many traditional arts organisations is older and there is still a lot of caution about returning to packed venues. It's just too early to tell what the medium term and long term impact will be but I expect that we'll see audiences booking later and later. Schools and groups bookings perhaps never fully recovering and some audiences will simply never return. Arts marketers love data and there's a lot of it to work with although there are huge issues around access to audience data. I'll talk about that in a moment. There can also be data capture challenges for galleries and museums where there might be no ticketing system in place but usually at the point of transaction it's the booker's data that gets captured irrespective of how many tickets they are booking. A typical theatre transaction is for 2.7 tickets so most of the data we capture relates to less than 40% of the actual audience attending which means there is a hole in our knowledge. But ticketing data still tells us a lot. Numbers of tickets sold, ticket types, price paid, booking patterns, levels of new bookers, party size and crossover with other shows. We then get demographic data from post-show surveys. We might get postcode data and profile data for segmentation. We get data on our e-marketing campaigns, our social media engagements and much more. Of course data on its own is of little use. It needs interpretation and context in order to help us build a picture of our audiences. It takes a lot of sorting out and requires expertise to do it well. As arts marketers we are in the business of selling an experience, a feeling, a moment people will remember. It is easy to forget this and focus on the more tangible aspects of the performance, the story, the cast, the set design and so on. We always need to remember that we are selling much more than that. And there is also a lot around it that matters too. The audience experience isn't just the time people spend in the auditorium. It's possible for audiences to have a great experience even if they don't much like the show. So much is about the environment, the customer care, the food and drink, the atmosphere and being part of a social occasion. The reverse is even more true. An amazing show can be overshadowed by problems with parking or public transport, uncomfortable seats, long queues for the toilets, overpriced drinks or unhelpful staff. Most arts organisations have at least one friend scheme or membership scheme. There are two main types of friend scheme, one that is benefits-led or one that is much more altruistic. In other words, it's what you get versus what you give. A benefits-led scheme is about loyalty and is quite transactional, often with priority ticket booking, some level of ticket discount and perhaps other financial benefits such as no booking fees, free cloakroom or free programmes. These tend to be entry level and members expect to pretty much recoup their membership fee through benefits one way or another. Higher level schemes usually include a greater element of donation and perhaps offer access to events, rehearsals or some kind of exclusivity. This is much more about philanthropic support and deeper engagement. And it's less about low-level tangible benefits. There are also examples of independently run friend schemes that have their own constitution and tend to focus more on social events for their members. In some extreme examples, they can also act as organised pressure groups to try and influence decisions made by the arts organisation that exist as support. So these can be tricky. And it's crucial for marketing and fundraising teams to work closely, to align on communications with their friends and members. They are still audiences and there needs to be a consistency of approach. So who owns the audience data when a ticket is sold? Who has access to it? In essence, whose audiences are they? Looking at it from another angle, who does the audience feel they have the relationship with? If you go to a theatre, are you there because of your interest in the venue or to the show itself? If you were making a donation, would it be to the venue or to the performing company? The audience data tends to sit with whoever is selling the tickets. In most cases, this will be venues and not touring companies. And usually, the venues will not share data with touring companies in any meaningful way. So access to audience data is a constant battle for arts marketers. And it creates an imbalance of power and control. GDPR got the industry tied up in knots a few years ago. And sadly, in many cases, it was used as an excuse to tighten a grip on data ownership and stop even limited data sharing. So what makes a hit show? It's an occupational hazard of the arts marketer that if a show sells really well, it's because it's a great show or great programming. And if it doesn't sell well, the marketing team is entirely to blame. You might think in hindsight, it was obvious that Warhorse would be a huge worldwide success. But it was created in the workshops of the National Theatre and was considered to be a risky proposition when under development. Les Miserables started at the Barbican as part of the RSC season and was hated by the critics when it opened in 1985. Audiences adored it and still do more than 35 years later. I have worked on shows that have sold out with Standing Room only. And a couple of the years later, the exact same show came back and played to largely empty theatres. Taste change and audiences can be fickle. There is no magic formula. We all know the power of an image and in arts marketing, we are often blessed with some fantastic creative imagery that can really capture the imagination. Dance photography in particular can be spectacular. What can be problematic is creating the right image or indeed any image at the start of a creative process when advanced selling a show that does not yet exist. In other words, how to visually represent what might just exist in someone's head as a concept or idea. In my experience, this causes the greatest tension between artists and marketers in agreeing what an image concept might be, how it is executed and who has the final say. It's incredibly subjective, but what an artist might have in their mind's eye as a perfect design might clash completely with what the marketer feels will be needed to deliver an audience for the work. Back when I was starting out, the classic progression in theatre was to start in the box office and then join the marketing team in a junior capacity, then working up from assistant to officer to manager to head to director. It would be a real career progression. Stop titles have changed till they come in and out of fashion. You're currently much more likely to see a role advertised as director of audiences rather than director of marketing, but this will no doubt swing back again in the fullness of time. Also, the workforce has become much more transient, with people more likely to drop in and out of the sector at almost any level. The staff churn in art marketing is notoriously high. It's not uncommon for people to move on after 12 to 18 months, often to jobs outside the art sector that pay better and have shorter hours, which needs neatly onto knowledge. With ever changing marketing teams, this presents challenges with product knowledge, organisational knowledge, and of course audience knowledge. Marketing teams tend to be made up of generalists complemented by communications and digital specialists. Typical team skills include direct marketing, data analysis, digital content creation, web, social media, advertising, brand, PR, stakeholder engagement, print and publications, and distribution. And for smaller arts organisations, this can all fall to one person, or may even be just part of a single role in running the whole company and every aspect of it. Arts marketers talk a lot about the loyalty ladder. This is the concept of audiences taking a series of steps from being a first-time booker to becoming a regular booker, a subscriber, a friend or member, and ultimately becoming a donor, so we try to move people up the ladder to the next rung. For sure, you need a good CRM system to track this and to be communicating with them at the right time with the right message. Subscriptions can be a key part of this customer journey, the point at which they commit to multiple attendances in a year. This happens most with orchestral music and to a lesser extent with opera, ballet and theatre. In the States, it's a much bigger deal and it's a model that is constantly evolving and coming in and out of favour. The marketing mix is hugely relevant in the arts sector. The interrelationship between product, price, place and promotion is critical to success with just one weak link having a potentially devastating impact. And remember, the product is often an unknown quantity. It might just be a concept we're asking people to buy into. Planning timelines vary hugely. Sometimes a show might be planned five years in advance, sometimes it might be as little as a week. And all the other three Ps play a crucial role in customer care expectations and experience. As I mentioned earlier, a good experience can heavily compensate for a poor product. No refunds is a long-standing policy for most ticketed events unless the event is cancelled. But there are grey areas and increasingly so since Covid. In the early days of the pandemic, it was common for audiences to be offered three choices when a performance was cancelled. Take a refund, take a credit note for a future booking or donate to the value of the ticket. Referring back to my GDPR point earlier, this was complicated in some instances by working out who the donation should go to, the venue or the touring company. Initially audiences were extremely generous in choosing to donate the value of their tickets. But as the months rolled on, increasingly audiences sought refunds as people adjusted their priorities. Arts organisations, especially those that receive public money, need to constantly balance three competing objectives, artistic, financial and social. Take a hypothetical example of an opera company wanting to stage the ring cycle by Wagner. Huge, epic, long, very expensive to produce. This might easily achieve the most ambitious of artistic objectives. But what about the finances? How much will it cost to stage? How much marketing will it need? How much ticket income might be achieved? How much can be fundraised? What shortfall does that leave? Do the artistic benefits outweigh the financial risks? And then the crucial question of who is it for? Is there a big enough audience for it? Will it be relevant to a younger or more diverse audience if that is an organisational priority? These objectives have to be weighed up and balanced out over time. So there is an overall plan that is artistically satisfying, financially viable, and develops audiences for the future. So what is the right ticket price to charge? Set prices too high and may become exclusionary. Set prices too low and this can send out signals about the quality of the product and damage the brand. Different art forms tend to be priced differently and there are large geographic differences too. There is also a debate about whether a short performance should be priced the same as a long performance. What are the best seats? Is unreserved seating more democratic than having price bounce? To what extent do more expensive tickets subsidise cheaper tickets? Increasingly dynamic pricing is used to encourage early booking and allow greater flexibility. There is a general perception that pricing in the arts is high. But UK theatre research in 2018 showed that the average ticket price achieved outside the West End was £27.10. In Cardiff this year the cheapest seats for the Rugby were £100 and the cheapest seats for the Opera were £15. Offering concessions for people who can't afford full price tickets is fine in theory but in practice it's a blunt tool. Is it meaningful to offer a £3 reduction on a £39 ticket to people who are claiming universal credit or income support? I also want to mention here the issue of free tickets. There is often pressure on arts marketers to give tickets away if there is capacity. But the danger, apart from sending out all the wrong signals, is that when you give someone a free ticket they will never pay to come back. They will just wait for the next time you're desperate enough to be giving them away. How do you measure artistic quality? It's something that Arts Council England has been trying to answer by introducing a quality metrics tool called the Impact and Insight toolkit in 2019. This goes beyond asking audiences about whether they like to performance, exhibition or project or enjoyed the overall experience. It requires the audience to really think about a whole range of quite challenging concepts. Metrics include distinctiveness, challenge, captivation, relevance, rigor and originality. The toolkit takes the form of an online survey using sliding scales with some free text boxes. My experience is that the scores are useful but it's the qualitative feedback that is really valuable. Asking more complex questions and really challenging the audience to think has the effect of teasing out responses you would never get from a more prosaic structure and it can help arts organisations get a deeper understanding of its audiences and the work it presents. The quality metrics toolkit is just one kind of research undertaken by arts organisations. It is usual and in many cases a funding requirement for arts organisations to undertake post-show surveys of audiences. These tend to be focused on the overall experience of their night out, their motivation for visiting, who they went with and a net promoter score question. The opportunity is also used to capture demographic data that can be used for reporting purposes. However, we know people filling in post-show surveys are self-selecting and it tends to not give a representative sample of the audience. Meanwhile, good work takes place around qualitative research with focus groups to test ideas and concepts, for examples around imagery and branding and lots of arts organisations have youth advisory boards and other initiatives to ensure they're getting feedback from the audiences with which they most want to engage. Segmentation, so the audience agency is a charity that supports cultural organisations to gain a deeper understanding of current and potential audiences. It has devised a segmentation system called audience spectrum that divides the whole UK population by their attitudes towards culture and by what they like to see and do. Audience spectrum includes information about behaviours, attitudes and preferences for arts, culture and heritage. There are 10 segments divided into high, medium and low levels of arts engagement with segments including experienced seekers, trips and treats and Facebook families. I recently used this segmentation in parallel with postcode and census data to get a really good understanding of a catchment area for a theatre company that is looking to move to a new area and highlighted the challenges and opportunities and gave some really clear steers on the potential market. So what is a good audience target to set for a show? You might think 100% but that's not always possible or realistic. UK theatre research in 2018 showed that the average capacity achieved outside the West End was 61%. Targets are usually set for the number of tickets sold and the total net income. Previous sales history can be a good indicator of likely sales but for my experience it's unwise to rely on that to learn. Especially post pandemic it's extremely difficult to second guess audience behaviour. It's an inexact science. Theatre productions can take time to become known and word of mouth can be critical. It's not always possible with short runs and touring productions and as I mentioned earlier it's impossible to predict the hits. A few years ago I worked on a production that sold almost exactly the same number of tickets for every performance in different theatres across the country. But those theatres varied massively in size so the percentage capacity varied wildly too whilst the actual number of tickets sold was consistent. So this presents interesting challenges in interpreting how targets might be set next time. So what makes a theatre unique? What makes an opera company unique? What makes an orchestra unique? And how do you get that across to an audience? A long time ago I was working on a dance festival and there were about 20 dance companies who all had choreographers described as award-winning or acclaimed and saying their work was ground breaking or captivating. I had the task of finding a USP for each so the audiences could differentiate when they were presented alongside each other. Arts organisations often struggle to articulate their brand clearly but few invest in any kind of brand tracking. Values can be a good way of differentiating this but it can be difficult to communicate. So what constitutes a value for money for audiences? What is a show worth? Paying more than £100 to see a stand-up comedian to a 60-minute set? Is that value for money? Paying £20 to see war and peace with an orchestra of 90 and a cast of 60? Is that value for money? In both cases it depends how much you want to see it. How much would you pay for something you're simply not interested in? Would you even accept free tickets for it? I know I wouldn't. At this point it becomes a decision about the value of your time and the energy involved. Regular art attenders are savvy and know what they expect things to cost. This includes how much they would expect to pay in different venues. For example people might expect to spend £10 at their local art centre, £25 at their local theatre and £50 for a big touring show. It can be hard to push against this and change perceptions of value as it's all tied up in the overall experience. So I've lived in Wales for the last 10 years and over that time arts organisations have increasingly worked bilingually in terms of communications. At Welsh National Opera we were subject to strict Welsh language standards so we had to ensure that all our audience communications treated Welsh no less favourably than English. This applied from everything from print to social media, from audience research to handling customer inquiries. I learned the importance of proofing as well as translation and why translation often isn't the right choice and how much better it is to write copy in both languages that properly flows. Developing a new bilingual website created unexpected challenges too leading to get the calls to action, the navigation, the alt tags amongst other things consistent and accurate. Unlike film certification the arts doesn't have a consistent approach to age guidance. There's a school of thought that age guidance effectively constitutes censorship and is resisted. The direction of travel now is towards offering content advisories or show warnings rather than age restrictions for productions so audiences can make informed decisions. It's a challenge to get these right especially over how specific they should be. They're a good and bad example as you might expect. You may also see warnings on auditorium doors when you are attending the performance. These need careful wording to avoid spoilers which I have seen happen but at that point one minute before the show starts can an audience member make an informed choice about what they are going to see. One of the key pieces of data in financial forecasting is ticket yields. This is a basic calculation dividing the total income by the number of tickets sold and not given away. This is different from average ticket prices as it reflects whatever levels of concessions and discounts apply. Carefully monitoring historic yield tends to be a good guide for planning and can also show up where the loss to discounting is too high. A very quick final slide but an important one. This is about arts marketers wanting to align themselves with the mood of the moment often for all the right reasons perhaps showing solidarity or alignment with important social issues causes or campaigns but this has to be done carefully and authentically. There is nothing more crass and potentially damaging to their brand than an arts organization adding rainbow colors to its social media profile picture to align with pride if the organization is not proactively supporting the LGBT community or taking part in social media blackouts in support of race protests if the organization is not facilitating conversations internally or enacting meaningful change. So that's about it. My contact details are on screen if you would like to connect or have questions but I'm going to pass back to Phil to take some questions now from you if you have any. Okay Matt that was great and it really truly was an A to Z of arts marketing. Okay Matt first question is what do you think were the major learnings that arose from the digital switch arising from COVID? Well I think digital exclusion has become much more of an issue than we thought. People who struggle maybe to attend live arts events have many of the same social exclusion issues as people who have very poor digital connectivity or digital skill. So the idea that you could suddenly reach everyone in their homes digitally wasn't really true I think. I think the other thing with digital and COVID was how much resource was pushed into it very quickly. In the very early days a lot of companies were giving away their digital content for free. I think in the sense that maybe the pandemic was going to be a three-month thing or a six-week thing and an awful lot was given away very cheaply or for nothing and that then became very hard to sustain over a long period of time. So actually keeping it fresh keeping it original there was certainly a novelty in those early days of watching something on Zoom or taking part in a Zoom interactive event but once you kind of got into the second year and the third year of it the novelty wore off for a lot of people and organizations down that hard to service and then they have the pressure of usually serving a live program as well now. So how you switch back to doing digital and live is the thing that people are looking at right now. Okay great thank you. I've got some questions around data. So first one is what methods can you suggest to overcome the audience data gap from multiple ticket purchases that you mentioned earlier? Well I think there are opportunities to you have a captive audience potentially when people come to a venue in particular and even though they might not have bought the tickets there will still be opportunities while they're on site to talk to them to maybe undertake some further research to do some data capture with them there. There are also some instances where you can ask people to provide details of who they're coming with when they book. So it isn't necessarily just the book of data but what we also tend to find is that people quite often will take turns to book. There might be two couples who go together and they'll take it in turns to book. So you're getting a overall you're getting a fuller picture of who's attending but actually getting that data at the point of booking still remains hugely challenging. There isn't a magic wand on this one it's trying to chip away at finding other ways of reaching people who aren't giving you their credit card number. Okay just with regards to ticket sales so who owns the data if somebody books through a third party like I know ticket master what are they called? That'll usually be with the with ticket master at the point of booking it depends what questions they're asking the booker. There are at least theoretically opportunities to ask multiple levels of permission so that it might say do you want to hear from the artist do you want to hear from the venue and do you want to hear from this ticketing site and there will be some level of sharing with that but usually with with third party ticketing they'll hold the data on that. Okay right and they're not necessarily able to share that. Correct yeah. Another question around data so obviously you've got lots of experience at various organizations. Do you have a favored CRM system that you could recommend? Well it depends on the scale of the organization really. Testatura was developed I think by the Metropolitan Opera in New York and became for many people the go-to system for a long time for larger organizations but it's a very very time hungry and complicated system to use and really wouldn't suit smaller organizations so it depends on the scale really I mean even things like you know really basic ticketing services or even things like Eventbrite can be perfectly fine for some people. I think it depends what your level of ambition is and what you're wanting to do with it but yeah Testatura was the one that we'd be using at WNA and it's kind of the common big one I suppose. Okay thank you. It's like change of tack here what are your opinions on free to attend and then pay what you want after the showing? Well I've done pay what you can before you go where you set a minimum amount. What you tend to find is people pay either pay the minimum or very close to it and I talked a little bit earlier about audience is being very savvy and unless you're really targeted on those offers and who you're trying to bring in as a new audience you run a risk that people who would normally pay full price will come on a special evening or come to a particular event where they can do it for a lot less money so I think the trick is to to make it really really targeted and really specific to who you're trying to reach. It does have a place but it is difficult to wean people off very cheap tickets or free tickets and there used to be a thing that was common called test drive where people would maybe come free and then the second time they'd maybe come back for half price and the idea was that after two or three visits they'd be paying full price and some people did but actually weaning people off cheap and free is really tough and it's very often not the price that's actually the barrier behind it. Yes indeed okay just staying with price for a while a couple of questions really is there a formula that you could apply when deciding what price to pitch tickets at and the other bit is the other so the question is do you see the price of tickets matching those in sports? In terms of the kind of benchmark question you do get a sense that you know if you're a touring company you see what's being charged for similar shows or similar companies at those kind of venues so you kind of have a range to play within I would say so with musical theatre you're probably looking at sort of 30 to 50 pounds and the big shows maybe 60, 70, 80 with dance companies it tends to be a bit less so there are kind of norms that you can play within and it's important to try and pitch it about right you don't want to be too far behind or too far ahead of those pricings so yeah it's just it comes with experience really I think and also just getting guidance from either similar organizations or theatres. In terms of the sports question it's an interesting one there's always every year there's a survey published somewhere or other that compares going to the theatre with going to the football and they're not really comparing like for like but it is certainly true that sports events tend to be very expensive you know the big ones and it's very easy to pay 50 to 100 pounds for a big sports event and to pay 20 pounds for a big cultural event so it kind of plays into that perception that the arts or certainly maybe the the higher arts are very expensive and that's not necessarily the case. Okay thank you um just got time for a couple more questions actually um so this is from a somebody who's actually studying currently and I'm sure there may be one or two other students actually on uh webinar today um hi I'm about to graduate and I'm very keen to go into arts marketing I have worked for a small arts CIC in Bristol alongside my English and History BA so I have about 18 months worth of part-time experience what kind of roles should I go for now and what extra qualifications should I attain now to prepare myself to the next stage of my career. Well I think it depends on your well if you go into a smaller arts organisation it's likely you'll be working across the whole spectrum of marketing if you go into a smaller art centre or a smaller theatre for example it might be a team of two people so you will be doing a whole bunch of stuff you'll be doing all the digital content you'll probably be doing press you'll be working on direct marketing and probably audience research as well so that would give you a really broad grounding in marketing if you joined a bigger team um you know at Welsh National Opera there was a team of around 10 plus the press team so that was much more around specific skills and if you were really interested in social media there might be your specialism and interest there are social media roles within the bigger organisations so I think it's probably a question of whether you want to specialise whether you want to get a really good grounding I'd really recommend getting a good grounding and then just seeing what you gravitate to I would say in terms of qualifications not specifically but the arts marketing association definitely worth joining they don't do qualifications but they do a huge amount of cpv and a bunch of free stuff as well so I would get involved with them okay great um I'd say this will have to be the final question because we are actually running out of time now um Matt do you have any advice on getting buy-in from other departments e.g artistic or back office teams understanding why marketing and fundraising are important and the roles they play in these functions well it is about understanding and it is about um education I think it's about spending time with artistic teams and um maybe not just having kind of binary conversations where one person likes something and one person likes something else I think them understanding um audience ambitions and why it's important to maybe reach new markets um all needs kind of explaining and and they need to buy into that um so I think it's it's about spending time with people and understanding where they're coming from and them understanding what it is that you're trying to bring to the table and finding some middle ground um so yeah more more dialogue I would say and more understanding rather than um and face to face try and avoid too many kind of email exchanges and um and tuning and probing like that actually that's an issue that's faced by most organizations not just in the arts sector so yeah absolutely those words of wisdom um Matt that's all we've got time for today in terms of the questions so thank you very much for those honest answers and thank you for everybody's for uh pitching those questions towards Matt um sadly that is all the time that we have for our webinar today um I would like to say thank you to Matt for his excellent presentation and to the CIN Wales group for organizing the event we do hope you have enjoyed the session and we found it interesting and worthwhile um we'll be back with our next webinar express why do most brands look great but sound terrible and what can be done about it with Chris West of verbal identity on Tuesday the 19th of April at our usual time of 1pm you'll find further details of the webinar listed on the events page of the website where you'll also be able to register for the session so this just leaves me to thank Matt once again for a fantastic presentation and to say thank you for joining us today take care everyone and we look forward to welcoming you again at our webinars in the future