 Hello everybody welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here in Pittsburgh with Josh. It's actually been a long time since I seen you last time I was overseas. Introduce yourself tell us a little bit about your formal intellectual training. I believe you just finished your degree actually. Yeah I just just this past month finished my masters in English from Duquesne University here in Pittsburgh. My formal post-secondary academic journey began at Faithbuilders. I finished the teacher-apprenticing program there in 2010 and taught for a few years and I wanted to finish my degree kind of for pragmatic reasons but I also wanted to explore maybe some different fields you mentioned talking internationally or interacting internationally. So that was one area that I kind of wanted to feel out. I actually took a class at George Mason University in global studies just one class summer class but then it wasn't working to transfer because of Faithbuilders their accreditation status and all that. So I actually ended up that in 2013 I began at Regent University online was able to transfer most of my work at Faithbuilders to Regent and I chose to do a degree in English primarily for you know kind of pragmatic reasons but it was also an area of interest of mine and I would say like with like as I started the degree program it was about that time that I began getting a vision for what academics as an Anabaptist could look like. Most of this was actually spurred by a podcast recommendation from a friend of mine the Christian Humanist podcast. I began listening to that and it's a podcast where three Christian college professors they just sit together and they talk about whatever texts or ideas that they want to talk about on the kind of week-to-week basis during the during the semester and so this really fired my imagination for what faithful scholarship as a Christian as an Anabaptist could look like. It was at this point I began thinking about possibly pursuing graduate education and pursuing like a traditional professor track but then I got kind of sidetracked and ended up in Israel working in Jerusalem for humanitarian NGO for three years and actually at that point that I finished my undergraduate work in 2016 but I decided to then pursue academics more formally and so I applied to Duquesne University and Pittsburgh was accepted on a teaching fellowship two-year teaching fellowship yeah just finished that and it was a great experience stretching and wonderful in every way. So the big question is you know we're talking about you know your pursuits in academia and so forth why do the humanities and that's the level of scholarship why does that matter and particularly like why can't Anabaptists gain from this? One thing for us humanities folks it's always a bit hard to answer because we feel like well if it's not obvious you just won't get it right. If you have to ask you know it's actually a very good question but if you let's just zoom back a little bit and think about humanities like where it comes from originally you know humanities was initially in the kind of classical education was just a designation to distinguish it from like divinity like the study of theology or city of God so so I mean when we're talking about humanities we're talking about human kind of human based knowledge right so philosophy literature linguistics history and then to some degree also like the soft sciences right like anthropology psychology so for me it's really connected to kind of the fundamental I guess doctrine that I would root it in would be would be the doctrine of Imago Dei of humans being created in the image of God and Dorothy Sayers has this really interesting point that she makes in the mind of the maker where she says well what are we what are we supposed to make of that like the only context the only clue that we have as to what that means in its context in Genesis is that God is creating right and so therefore humans you know create and this is particularly getting into humanities as you know the arts right humans creating things doing doing things with stuff making things making culture that's kind of the that's kind of the background for me kind of a central kind of guiding verse if you want to call it a proof text you can call it a proof text but it's from Psalm 111 where it talks about great are the works of the Lord studied by all who delight in them and in the context it's talking about you know the works the historical works of God that God did for the children of Israel for me I see humans as kind of the you know and kind of the traditional medieval way of you know the crown of creation right and and with the doctrine of Imago Dei enjoying a kind of proximity a close proximity to God and so therefore the stuff of human culture worth paying attention to worth thinking about wrestling with really the question kind of the core of all this is what it is it mean what does it mean to be human what is the human experience and like how have people across cultures and across time wrestled with that thought about that so I think that's kind of the it's not really specifically an abaptist anything about this about that right but but that's kind of you know where I come at it the question of humanism one of the things that has really fired my imagination with this is is the idea of what's what Norman Klosson and Jen Zimmerman in this book The Passionate Intellect what they call incarnational humanism their thesis of this book is that only the incarnation enables a recovery of humanism as the heart of university education because the incarnation allows us to retain the best elements of the greater humanist tradition and of its postmodern critics without repeating their shortcomings human dignity the dignity of nature and the interpretive nature of truth become possible without fragmentation or totalization and when they're talking there about human dignity the dignity of creation but also interpret like truth as interpretation one of the things that I think we do well to recognize is that you know another scary kind of boogie man if you will is is you know is postmodernism right well yeah yeah and so you know obviously has its problems especially if you're coming at it from a from a christian point of view it also levels some really good critiques against like enlightenment rationalism this idea that we can have knowledge as somehow this kind of disembodied rational knowledge and when the reality is that is that knowledge and even reason is always mediated through texts it's always mediated through through bodies through people through traditions there is an affective element an aesthetic element to knowledge that calls into question this ability to access truth from this kind of completely cerebral detached perspective and I don't I don't see that as a threat I mean it potentially like the kind of the direction postmodernism takes that is is to say well then we can't know anything for sure there you know there is nothing we can know for certain so then what you're left with is to deconstruct you know everything you know it's just about a matter of being ironic and you know playing with language and make to make it do what you want to do um the alternative to that I think is is is worship and mystery and humility and I think here again is something that that maybe we could bring to the conversation to recognize that we are limited in our understanding of knowledge our understanding of truth um and something I've been thinking about lately is is actually the difference between like understanding versus like perceiving um understanding is like etymologically uh I haven't worked this all out so I'm kind of working it out you know as you talk but like etymologically it's you know it's it's to stand under or to stand in front of versus perceiving or apprehending as a kind of grasping or kind of taking a hold of and so um when you reach the point of understanding is when you it's almost like a posture of submission of standing in front of or standing in in kind of unknowing or mystery in some way and um it has an element of worship to it I think that that I think is missed in like the very in more I guess the cerebral approach or limiting yourself to that so right I'm kind of all over the all over the map here that's great though like that's really interesting because that's actually one of my considerations you know I'm back in college too and and here's these fields of study these different things that are having massive effects on our culture and hey could the Anabaptist you know have some responses to this maybe we have something to bring to the table too you know and I was I was found that intriguing so one of the things when we were emailing before this you had mentioned how um academic pursuits the humanities there's an intersection between that and cross-cultural engagement could you talk about that personally for yourself how is your academic involvement um enable you in the cross-cultural element one of the things that I've noticed it especially with an abaptist is getting more specifically to um an abaptism is when we talk about like doing work internationally or working cross-culturally we do very well I think at talking about how to how to speak in a the language of the particular culture that we're trying to communicate with what this often ends up doing is appreciate is fostering an appreciation then for that culture's particular idioms that culture's way of thinking the stories the art that has shaped that culture but I don't see that so much that kind of attempt being made so much with western culture especially western popular culture and when I'm talking culture I'm talking literature art music film stories all that kind of wrapped up into one I don't know I don't really know why this is I haven't really developed the strong enough thesis maybe it's because we see ourselves so much as already a part of that culture that we need to be like counter-cultural I think there's a limitation there when we don't try to at least understand you know the people around us um we all we are like counter-cultural in many ways right as I see it like so far an abaptist have taken kind of two steps to culture two approaches one is what I've been talking about like the counter culture kind of against culture it's either kind of irrelevant or marginally useful or dangerous actually right the the other approach is kind of complete acculturation just kind of uncritical consumption so we either watch movies or we don't watch movies you know but we don't or we either read harry potter you don't watch or don't read harry potter um I don't see us like thinking very um deeply or coherently like as a culture about about how we engage and so what I would hope to kind of promote um for for my people is more deliberate like participation kind of or critical engagement or at least make like an attempt to understand because first of all there's a lot of you know if I may say there is a lot of truth a lot of goodness a lot of beauty that's created by people who are not like us right I think we we see that with we can see that with like international cultures I think we're less apt to see it with with with our own culture that opening up a a bridge for communication for understanding um you know I mentioned I taught first year writing and it's amazing to me um the level at which my students um so what they're you know late teens early 20s you know freshmen coming out of high school you know they've been they've been deeply deeply shaped by um you know by harry potter by um avengers you know and like like frankly there's like a cultural gap there you know as somebody who grew up in a in a more conservative environment um you know like there's there's just kind of a gap there that I completely missed we might you could say maybe that maybe it was good that I missed that maybe I can show them you know maybe it's not worth you know getting uh having that experience but I think we we too easily just kind of reject um instead of trying to at least understand like untangle it yeah if we're nothing else if we're not only for pragmatic reasons that you do to understand I I think you know there's there's often more there than what we give a credit for being but I realize I also realize that might not be you know widely shared that idea but um it would be something I would at least hope um and especially for our people um I think it's something we have to reckon with I mean not to be um I don't I don't like a kind of the doomsday approach that oh we're just so connected we're becoming acculturated but um if we're going to have like you know mobile technology access to the internet whereas in the past like kind of our counter cultural um more conservative groups haven't had the access to you know mass media that gap is is narrowing I would um advocate for um I guess more just more critical engagement with it instead of either kind of a hand wringing that oh my goodness what's happening um or or kind of sticking our head in the sand pretending you know that we're not being shaped by this because we are like I mean we really really are like being shaped by this and especially young people yeah and endeavoring to understand well maybe right yeah right yeah right and I mean you're you're going to be pulled in a direction regardless like you know you you choose the media that you consume you're going to be pulled especially in the polarized world America that we are in right now you're going to be pulled in one direction or the other and I would I would like to think that we could you know have a kind of a third way and maybe um critically engaging um offering a different perspective being thoughtful about it yeah maybe like participating engaging analyzing thinking through all right yeah yeah and I don't have a lot of easy answers like I'm not just saying I'm not saying you know you throw open the floodgates and you know or yeah or you know but we're just immerse yourself in pop culture right um right yeah all of that needs to be worked through at I think a local community level you know in in conversation with with community and the Holy Spirit right but um I think we do ourselves a disservice when we when we when we cut ourselves off that dramatically from from the culture around us so going off of that pivoting a little bit but what is one piece of literature or something in your studies um that you feel has impacted you the most I am going to go the biblical route um yeah give two examples um from from the bible that really have kind of shaped my thinking about culture and engaging culture Daniel and his friends in Babylon oh yeah um they are they are given you know their rations and they're given a program of study you need to learn the language and the literature of the Chaldeans right and they come out on the other end of that very very well studied you know three years having studied the language and literature the Chaldeans and they're known for their wisdom and their ability to interpret dreams and obviously it says you know this is something God gave them but they also put it in the work they're being faithful to the God of Israel um you know they're keeping kosher right they're in a foreign land but they're they're learning and able to use um the literature of that of that culture in meaningful ways and again what does this mean um for us at some that's that's yeah that's where the interpretation needs to happen um the the conversation needs to happen but I think that's that's something that's kind of just uh that biblical story has been powerful for me but also and maybe maybe more more impacting or more central is is Paul uh Paul's sermon on Marcel and in the course of his is his sermon he he quotes um two separate uh Greek poets pagan poets if I can read it yeah yeah so I have it right here so Paul here he's he's talking um about you know where God is in in in the world in the cosmos and then in verse 27 yet he is actually not far from each one of us for quote in him we live and move and have our being and that quote there is from um from uh from a Greek poet and then he continues as even some of your own poets have said for we are indeed his offspring being then God's offspring we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone and so forth and so on so he's yeah it's like he's he's weaving these poets in a sense like taking them taking the wisdom that's there using it to speak to them in their own idiom in their own way and it's not just I don't think it's just again it's not just a pragmatic kind of you know sales pitch right you need to grease the wheels here like you know I see that as another example of you know a faithful believer I mean like the kind of founder of Christianity in some ways like institutional Christianity um using using the wisdom that's there and you know ultimately I think it comes back to the it's kind of cliche but you know all truth is God's truth right um so those have been kind of the the formative ones for me thinking about specifically like cross-cultural uses of the humanities as well as benefiting personally so we're going to flip that around then and and because one of the concerns people have is okay so we've seen that the upside the cross-cultural engagement these scriptures you're using but then they say well what about these secular ideologies or maybe you know ideologies coming through in literature art whatever it is right that we don't agree with right how do we handle that yeah how would you respond to that yeah first I will say that by almost by definition the humanities are like secular in the sense that they are like about humans and not about the divine so like almost by definition there is a kind of secularism there but I think what you're talking about is like ideological secularism like this idea that we can't bring in any kind of or that like this is the way the world is right and and this kind of ideological approach um so yeah I mean there is a de facto kind of secularism you know within the university um that I think you need to be aware of going into and and sure but I would reckon I think sometimes it gets overplayed and caricatured what I would say to somebody who's considering you know studying this at the university level is first of all root yourself in um in a faithful community um ideally somebody who or a community who has it includes both you know academically inclined as well as non-academic inclined people you don't want to be lonely but you also need people to kind of you know keep you rooted the other one another piece of advice would be to or I guess backing up like along with that um also like surround yourself with with other people within the field like both from the past and the present like one other thing about the humanities that you realize especially like English literature you go into it and like most of these people like especially the older stuff like most of these people are working within the parameters of a of a functionally Christian perspective worldview um so like all of my like most of my work actually that I did at Duquesne was with like George Herbert who was a you know 17th century devotional poet and you know theology of Lancelot Andrews who was a pastor during that time it's not like it's you know completely secular so yeah um surround yourself with people like I was saying both from the past as well as the present who have demonstrated like faithfulness in scholarship as well as in like in their Christian faith in their in their in their devotional life and so I was you know you know mentioning like Herbert George Herbert John Dunn you know some of those some of those um 17th century poets that I really found myself you know gaining an appreciation for of course you have like Lewis CS Lewis GK Chesterton Tolkien Sayers kind of that group of um of British intellectuals that I think our people are usually fairly familiar with Roger Lundin he was a professor of English at Wheaton Wheaton College wrote some really amazing books that have been influential for me beginning with the word culture of interpretation but he really gets into these these he really wrestles with like modernism and post-modernism questions of interpretation yeah but just from a very deep and rich um you know Christian framework it was always helpful for me as I was pursuing having these these questions pursuing these yeah these um degrees to have kind of a you know codger people from like the past as well as the present even if you're not like with them you know in flesh to kind of right you know help you think you know in ways like I think I really think thinking happens in community knowledge happens in community like um and again that's something I think and about the spring to the table is this this understanding that we don't like access truth and knowledge very well by ourselves off you know with only our brain and you know you pretty much you're pretty soon to end up in some pretty deep rabbit holes about your questions of like what can I trust and what do I know and how do I know right but um but if you know post-modernism has done any good it has highlighted the the communal um nature uh embodied nature of truth and maybe just like referring to these other people that have wrestled through some of these things before right yeah right that's yeah right these questions aren't new you read the Greek philosophers and most of this stuff is just recycled in different contexts yeah yeah root yourself in a community um be honest with yourself about what you want also ask like what type of person do I want to become and that's one of the things that for me has been helpful and you know I look around and like who do I want to become well you know um there are there are examples there that that are worth emulating um be willing to live with tension be humble don't go into it thinking that you have to immediately destroy every argument that somehow you know feels wrong um be willing to live with that tension one of the things that I found is is that you know coming in good faith you're usually more than welcome you know in in in in those in a more secularized university setting you know we have these kind of caricatures right of you know god's not dead you know movie I'm familiar with it but like you know the professor who's just out to destroy the student and the student who like owns his professor you know after studying you know some online apologetics courses and like you know you might run into a professor here there um but by and large that that is just um I would just encourage you to like encourage people to just avoid that kind of culture wars mentality I think it's just overall kind of destructive you know I have learned to be able to to read and understand um people who you don't agree with necessarily I mean I tell my my writing students that that you should be able to repeat the arguments of your opponents better than you know as good or better um than they do yeah and you know take them in good faith and then engage in that kind of dialogue so I think those would be you know some of the big some of the big points that I would recommend is there anything else you would like to add before we wrap up one of the things that if I could just read a few verses um here at the end um this is something that I kind of kept in front of me as I was going into academia um something I um want to keep in front of me there are two scriptures the first is um Proverbs 4 verses 7 to 9 the beginning of wisdom is this get wisdom and whatever you get get insight prize her highly and she will exalt you she will honor you if you embrace her she will place on your head a graceful garland she will be still on you a beautiful crownslight there's this there's a scripture about like I mean get wisdom get inside get knowledge like pursue it all the way there's also a verse in the scriptures from Ecclesiastes 1 verse 18 and I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly I perceive that this is also that this also is but a striving after wind for in much wisdom is much vexation and he increases knowledge increases sorrow so um you know a little bit you know however you want to take those um I like to think of scripture as having a plurality of voices and like if you want to keep kind of a final I guess advice for whatever it's worth you know keep those two kind of visions of knowledge of academics of wisdom of understanding kind of intention like on the one hand it's it's worth giving yourself to completely on the other hand you know it's not everything right and depending on how it's pursued it can just lead to a whole lot of pain and pain sorrow I can testify to both of those balance in all things yeah attention attention yeah yeah it's it's it's an inability to rest right yeah yeah wow wow well this has been great thanks so much for sharing I learned a lot I think a lot of people will learn from this as well so thank you yes