 Hi, this is Yoho Sapil Bhartyan. Welcome to the three more topic of this month and the topic of this month is Infracture as code and today we have with us once again Kindle then some senior upstream developer advocate at Open Infra Foundation. Kindle, it's great to have you on the show Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be back again Yes, and if I recall correctly last time we met at KubeCon in Europe We sat down and we had some fun discussion there But I it's a good idea to always refresh memories of a viewer, especially when we look at your title senior upstream developer advocate What does this title entail? What is your role at Open Infra Foundation? Put simply I wear a lot of hats I do a lot of different things for our foundation Probably my two favorite most important things right now that I focus on are bridging the Communities for Kubernetes and OpenStack together because there are so many different ways that those technologies integrate So I spend a lot of time trying to knowledge share of the struggles of a global open-source project and then my second favorite thing that I focus on lately is cool collaborating with universities to get more students involved in open-source projects and Building on the the programs that they're already running at universities to get students involved upstream and have mentoring of active contributors to those projects and It it's very exciting. I love it. It's my favorite thing right now Maybe we'll talk at some point about the work that you're doing within your cities as well And today since the team is infrastructure and infrastructure as code Of course you folks, you know the early days of OpenStack foundation as well You're one of the champions when it comes to whole, you know, perfection of open source technology If you look at telco story, they were all black boxes propriety technologies But they started embracing open source and the whole today's telco story is mostly software driven open source Can you talk about? The difference between you know closed or proprietary infrastructure and open infrastructure and what are the factors? That are kind of driving this adoption of open source or open infrastructure to define open infrastructure first I think it Comes down to using open source technologies and tools to provide the infrastructure that was historically maybe in-house or provided by some mega scaler or or some group like that so To talk about why people are switching to open infrastructure Well, we have seen for a long time that there is a push to use open source projects instead of proprietary software And I think that that comes largely because of the community And the pool of knowledge that exists around every open source project that's a lot of resources that any company can make use of and benefit from and When you see a lot of your competitors embracing the world of open source it is a push for you to do it too because Otherwise your competitors are gonna have a competitive advantage. They're gonna be They're gonna have better tools and they're going to be better tested and they're going to be more Diversely used so they're going to be more robustly built there are so many advantages to open source And they naturally extend to open infrastructure as well. No, let's talk about in frustration code, of course, depending on who we talked to they might Define in a different way. What does it mean for a community project like OpenStack? I would define a open infrastructure as like the or open infrastructure and infrastructure as code as like a programmatic way of Managing the infrastructure Like tests like automated running of tests is a is a really good example particularly with OpenStack because our whole Zool CI CD system that we use to run the automated tests and make sure that the code is safe to merge into the the primary repository is Not Controlled by people. It it's completely scripted and automated so that you don't need as many people to scale the tests when you are getting close to a release and there are a ton of patches coming in so When I think about infrastructure as code, it's the scripts and tools and everything to automate the process of infrastructure configuring that infrastructure and Doing all of that operation management so that people don't have to and the way that we take it one step further is that We manage all of those scripts and configuration files and what not in the same way that we Manage our like code contributions So there's code reviews happening on every single one of those configuration changes so that we know that our infrastructure is going to be stable and sound and easy to keep running and not have issues so I Think that the infrastructure of code As code is something we have really embedded into our community And I think that a lot of communities could benefit from of course we can talk about DevOps team, you know, but let's just focus on developers How does in freshers code make things easier for them? There are a lot of like key benefits of in repeatability is there a lot of other things so they're Can you talk about from there? Personally how it makes things easy and if you can also talk. Hey, these are key benefits of Infrastructure as code particularly for communities like open stack and Kubernetes that Saw the huge explosive growth as a community There were tons of people around and then we made it over the hype curve And now there are less people because they've moved off on to something else. That's totally fine And as a community open stack has learned how to rely on infrastructure as code and the management of our infrastructure in a code-focused way And I think that that Lessons the load on our infrastructure team and our open dev team to Like we're down to a handful of people and I know it's the same thing in the kubernetes community So being able to run the entire Tool suite around the the things that we need to collaborate and being able to run our tests in an automated way that wouldn't be possible on the scale that we have to run these things With so few people if we weren't relying on infrastructure as code, of course whenever we talk about these technologies or principles or practices We all always talk about the culture people side of it Embracing in frustrated code does it also require a lot of you know The way we look at organizations or teams or people or culture or you know Once organizations start to embrace some of these new practice like the whole DevOps culture Infrages code kind of come naturally to them or they do need to look at the cultural side of it as well I think there's aspects of both. I think that The people that are used to doing the DevOps sort of thing and are used to being operators. It's Stuff that they've been working on building for a while because they saw the value in it from the beginning And I think as like developers coming into it It is a natural extension of how we do code development and the review process so I think it kind of fits really well with both groups of people and When you have both groups of people working together, then you get something as amazing as Zool and Our whole infrastructure set up for OpenStack. What kind of adoption you are seeing already that is there of Infrages code and if you're also looking at either some of the Exciting, you know use case your idea where you're like, hey, these folks are doing it in a really exciting way I focus more on like larger more established open source communities so open second Kubernetes So I think that In general where we're both doing it. Well, it's obviously different like OpenStack uses Zool where Kubernetes uses prow for their testing, but it's interesting to see that we've gotten to about the same place Even though like the the two communities started so different and like the focus of the actual Project is very different being you know containers versus virtual machines like whoa But we have found ourselves in the exact same position where we can run all of our infrastructure with a half a dozen people and I think that that is a really interesting pattern that's happened and I think that there are probably a lot of medium sized open source communities that as they continue to grow can learn from OpenStack and Kubernetes because We found our way to the same place even though we started completely different places and I think that that's a testament to the the contributors and the size of the community and the innovation in both of them and I think that if it can work at the scale that we're both running it at then it is applicable for any open source community and The bigger a community you have I think the more important it becomes to be able to programmatically do these things and utilize infrastructure as code. What advice do you have for teams? Who are you know once again folks are in different phases of their in an infectious code adoption journey that they should have Right practices right approach in place to embrace Infrastructure as code some like best practices and tips for people getting started with infrastructure as code is to start smaller because you can always add complexity down the road as with writing any unit test you want to Focus on the smallest piece that you can confirm is correct or not and I think that that similar idea can be applied to infrastructure as code because you want to Make sure that you can spin up your VM or get your workload set up in Kubernetes and You want to start by being able to Programmatically do that to plan to believe reliably, especially if you have a pool of resources that have a lot of different Like information about like their networking and the amount of storage they have and stuff you want To start as small and reliably as possible And then you can add more complexity and more complexity and more complexity But as you're doing that you also really want to make sure to document everything as well as you can because you might not be able to see what you're working on from start to finish and Documenting it is going to make sure that it can be completed in the future. Even if you happen to not be around so documentation and Start small Kendall, thank you so much for taking time out today and of course talk about this topic And I would love to chat with you again as you said right, you know You hear so many heads with so many things to talk about. Thank you Yeah, I look forward to chatting more in the future