 Especially in smaller companies, there is no product manager. It's usually one of the early employees or founders who is wearing that hat. Then as the company grows and there are more product managers, there are more engineers. Then we see that additional segmentation and why some companies have product managers, as well as product marketers. I always say that the CEO is always the first product marketer. So even when the CEO hires that first product manager, it's still their baby. They're still passionate about how you bring this product to market. And especially for product marketers or heads of marketing working for technical founders, you need to consider the CEO founder as the first product marketer. Their opinion really matters. And the good news is they're usually very passionate about it. So it leads to very productive conversations.