 Hello, my name is Marilee Profitt. I want to thank you for joining me to hear about Reimagined Descriptive Workflows, which is a project that took place a couple of years ago, but is still having impacts within OCLC and also the larger academic and research library information space. So thanks for joining me. I want to start by acknowledging that I live and work on the land of the Chichennualani people and what is now known as Oakland, California. I want to take a moment also to draw attention to the work of the Seguritate Land Trust. There's a QR code on your screen and you can find out more about this Indigenous group and their current efforts to rematriate the land. I'd like to encourage you, wherever you are right now, to think about similar efforts that are going on local to your community and how you can support and be engaged in those efforts. I also want to start by thanking these organizations for their support of the project. First, the Mellon Foundation, which provided funding for to support the convening that was at the heart of the Reimagined Descriptive Workflows project. Of course, OCLC, which has funded this project since its inception and continues to encourage it to this day. And then special thanks also to the OCLC Research Library Partnership. This is the special part of OCLC that I work for and with and without the inspiration of the member institutions within the OCLC RLP. I don't think that this project would have come as far as it has. So thanks to all of these organizations. So what is the Reimagined Descriptive Workflows project? This was a convening of a group of experts, practitioners and community members for a three day convening in 2021 right in the middle of the global pandemic to determine ways of improving descriptive practices, tools, infrastructure and workflows in libraries and archives. So this resulting agenda draws together insights from this convening together with related research and also highlights operational work going on in the field that we found to be inspirational. So this agenda is not a how to guide, but instead helps to chart a path forward towards reparative and inclusive description and is divided into two parts. The first part provides contextual information regarding the project, the convening and methods. And then the second part offers a framework of guidance that suggests actions and exercises that can help frame institutions, local priorities and areas for change and also provides examples to help inspire local work. So it is our firm belief that all institutions hold power to make meaningful change in this space and we can all share collective responsibility. So one thing we can see in the literature and beyond is that there are ample ex evidence of harm and I'm going to share just a couple of examples of this motivations for this work I would say are rooted in the fact that descriptive practices have been harmful for some time and this is nicely summarized in the catalogers code of ethics which was published in 2021 and I'm going to quote cataloging standards and practices are currently and historically characterized by racism, white supremacy, colonialism, othering and oppression. And this is also nicely summarized in the Canadian Federation of Library Association report that was published as part of Canada's truth and reconciliation process published in 2017. The author of that report is my co-panelist Camille Collison and this report calls out the western practice of silencing and mischaracterization of indigenous lives and experiences. This work is specifically points to reparations for First Nations, Métis and Inuit people of Canada but also echoes what we are seeing and reading elsewhere that we first need to acknowledge that these harms have happened before we can engage around repair. So despite many wonderful efforts it remains true that the library and archives perfective profession has a reparative debt representing an enormous backlog. So in 2017 as some background for the Reimagined Descriptive Workflows project the OCLC Research Library Partnership conducted a survey to explore if and how research libraries were moving forward with work in around equity, diversity and inclusion. So this is a snapshot of survey results that helped to document and illuminate something that we already anecdotally knew that institutions were struggling with creating inclusive and anti-racist description. So this need for dealing with racist and inappropriate metadata became a steady drumbeat, driving discussions in the OCLC Research Library Partnership, metadata managers focus group and also providing fodder in many webinars and other discussions that we had across the OCLC RLP. In 2020 we followed up on this topic in order to increase our understanding of the challenges faced by librarians and we conducted a series of semi-structured informational interviews focused on the difficulty of cataloging topics related to indigenous peoples in respectful ways. These conversations took place between March and June 2020 with the first happening right at the very beginning of the global pandemic shutdowns that were occurring globally. We interviewed 41 staff at 21 institutions in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States. Most interviewees worked in the context of an academic library but we also spoke with staff at national libraries, independent research libraries and public libraries. So these interviews helped us to characterize the problem not only identifying structural barriers and doing the work but also help to reveal the harms caused by not doing the work. So these two pieces of work helped to set the stage for the reimagined descriptive foreclosed project. So we had a number of challenges in this project. We were trying to build community during a global pandemic and of course this all needed to happen online. So here I want to give thanks to the SHIFT Collective which was engaged to help us with running the convening specifically. The SHIFT Collective is a non-profit consulting and design group that helps organizations better engage, collaborate with and reflect local communities. The SHIFT Collective brought many strengths to this project. They are very used to having frank and open conversations about racial and social justice which includes overt and not coded discussions about power imbalances and racial inequities. Working with their staff I think helped us, the folks at OCLC, lean into our leanings from other work that we had been doing on our own. SHIFT helped us plan the meeting but also helped us think through who we wanted to include in the meeting both in terms of what specific people in terms of professional roles and personal representation to invite as well as who to include on our advisory team. This became an exercise in combining networks. The OCLC team had contacts but so did the SHIFT Collective. Attending the meeting and contributing knowledge is an exercise in trust and people who were being asked to contribute had to have trust in their contributions that they would be meaningful and would have a chance to move the field forward in a substantive way. So having invitations come from a trusted contact made a huge difference I think in terms of people's willingness to contribute. And at the heart of our project was our advisory board essential in helping us to establish our goals helping to keep us on track with our outputs thanks to members of the advisory board especially Stacy and Camille who are here with me today presenting. Of course travel was impossible during the COVID-19 pandemic and a goal of our convening was to foster a sense of connection and camaraderie. So we tried to do this with our planning team consider ways of engaging participants so that the meeting felt immersive personal and distinctive. So we sent welcome packages to all participants. Package contents included a cookbook from New Orleans treats from black and women owned New Orleans companies. Convening branded notebook plastic tumbler all to encourage a sense of connection sustenance fund and to lend a taste of travel to the host city of New Orleans. So acknowledging that food plays a critical role in building community although it was a bit of a stretch we really tried to include food and a sense of connection despite the miles between us. We also had cultural immersion segments which were designed by our cultural advisor asante salon. These activities helped to give people a sense of having traveled to a space each day opened with a welcome video message from one of the locations represented in the convening New Orleans New Zealand British Columbia. So each day had a sense of place associated with it and at the end of each day participants were invited to socialize and learn about a local artist. And then music played a role throughout the convening providing background context for breaks helping to celebrate the day and lift energy. And then we also shared a playlist at the conclusion of the event. So as I mentioned the RDW report is not a how to manual for repairing description but instead outlines the wise of the problem space and then tactics for the moving for moving forward. So part of this is outlining the tensions that are inherent in anti-racist work and making the case for why the work is needed. The report also identifies key concepts that are necessary in anti-racist work and these are naming white supremacy, the role of power holding institutions, the need to relinquish power and building trust. And then finally there is this framework of guidance which can be used within all levels of an organization from leadership to middle management to individual contributors. And this framework of guidance is as close to a checklist as the report comes. Readers can ask themselves which of these conditions are true for me at my institution and where is growth and learning still needed. So now I'm going to shift to talk about some work that has been done at OCLC that has been inspired by the reimagined descriptive workflows project. And I'm going to start with describing briefly a project about locally preferred terms and how those are supported in world cat discovery. So this was really driven by OCLC product team members attending the reimagined descriptive workflows convening and really taking some direct takeaways that there were some opportunities within OCLC products to take action within OCLC products. And the first of these was that there is an opportunity to rapidly reduce harm in a discovery environment. So acknowledging that there are these larger shifts that need to be made within the larger library ecosystem specifically within looking at subject headings but that you could reduce harm on the discovery side. So I'm going to briefly walk you through how this works. So if you think about world cat and union catalogs in general you have controlled vocabularies that are behind the scenes. In the world cat discovery environment we are replacing locally preferred terms for those current controlled vocabularies where they are problematic. And that way library users are seeing these locally preferred terms rather than the globally controlled terms. So the end result is that users see the terms that you have defined. So in this example the term homeless persons has been replaced with persons experiencing homelessness. So behind the scenes there is a list a relatively small list if you consider all the subject headings that are out there. There is the opportunity to define locally appropriate terms. So in this case instead of homeless persons, persons experiencing homelessness. There is also a community aspect to this because this local subject remapping template can be shared by many libraries. So libraries can either work alone and use just the terms that they want to use or they can benefit from the contributions of others. So you see here a number of the subject headings and then alternative defined local headings. So this is a way in which OCLC has been working to address the problem. I want to talk now about a more recent project which is the WorldCat Ontology DEI project. So during the development of a fundamental component of OCLC's linked data ecosystem, the WorldCat Ontology OCLC product leadership recognized that there was a need to pause production workflows and take the time to critically review the ontology prior to release. So the WorldCat Ontology was developed to model extant bibliographic descriptions and authority data and builds on earlier OCLC projects which benefited from the involvement and participation of community members. So seeking not to replicate harm in the ontology, an internal diversity equity and inclusion review of the property labels and definitions surfaced opportunities for further revision. And seeking to bring in a broader range of perspectives and also observing one of reimagined descriptive workflows principles taking the time to stop and learn really helped to provide a framework for prioritizing inclusivity and reparative practices. So we invited a small group of professionals with dedicated commitment to reparative description and who work for organizations that have prioritized this work. So in many cases these participants also drew from their lived experiences. So I want to share from you just a couple of highlights from these very recent conversations. So I would say that the comments and discussions reflected in interrogation of bibliographic ontology specifications that really embed a Western understanding of works as individual acts of creation. So in indigenous communities and also elsewhere the inception of works such as authorship, composing and building are seen as community rather than individualistic endeavors. So our recommendations suggested revisions to acknowledge and to account for shared creation and ownership. So additionally assertions about individual creation can at times erase or obscure the creation of knowledge or intellectual content by indigenous and non-Western community instead of and instead incorrectly attribute the work to a colonial or settler individual author. So one respondent explained that there had been and I'm going to paraphrase here a lot of knowledge and cultural extraction from cultural communities and described a case where an anthropologist came into the community, documented the language, wrote it down and published it and then therefore became the credited author for that indigenous language. So now the tribe has to go through that person's estate to get rights to their own language. So that's where this term as they described it author could be problematic and really the definition and the focus here on author as one person who is responsible for the creation. So this is an example of where expanding and further understanding the terms that we're using is really important. Respondents feedback also really illuminated some issues with descriptive structures that imply neutrality related to the acquisition or ownership of materials, property and land. So the draft ontology terms and definitions in some cases could uphold the narrative that obscures histories of seizure, colonialism and violence. So participants expressed their concerns were not about finding a better term, but really in acknowledging that these actions are not neutral. So the recommendation here is to consider language that invites critical reflection regarding the circumstances of ownership and acquisition. For example, the draft definition of the term pair of terms acquired acquired by included the explanatory phrase otherwise obtained ownership over the agent of place. And one respondent commented continue well established sifts away from validating ownership in the context of slavery acquisition through purchase or not in hindsight may not amount to accepted ownership but more to unjust violence mastery coercion detainment theft loot emphasizing ownership therefore might play erase these potential transgressions I would recommend further qualifying ownership. So this example really helped to the project team understand how this phrase otherwise obtained essentially functions as a euphemism. So we understand what it means but use language that obscures the true nature of the activity or the potential true nature of the activity and presents it as seemingly neutral. So this is something that was addressed in revision. Another example is the original definitions for a subset of properties that can be understood as kinship based relationships. So this includes parent, child and spouse emphasize legal and biological definitions in defining them. So here respondent feedback uniformly suggested that element description should be expanded to relationships that are self defined. So one partner or one excuse me respondent explained partner and spouse are not equivalent even though conceptually a lot of people put those together in many for many in the lgb2 plus community partner was a poor equivalent to spouse. This person is my spouse he's not my partnership. He's not my partner. So going back to indigenous communities this person explained that these relationships did not have necessarily have legal status enslaved people couldn't get married unless it was recognized by the state. And of course these relationships existed in spite of these prohibitions. So again we adjusted our definition to have kinship relationships include self defined relationships. So we are really pleased to share that not only is reimagined descriptive workflows having an impact within OCLC but also within other organizations reimagined descriptive workflows was cited in this article which looks at a follow on from the British libraries effort to become an anti racist organization. This article documents the British libraries efforts in that area a pilot project that has resulted from recommendations paid by a cataloging and metadata subgroup as well as recommendations from the collections and curation subgroup. So this particular project focuses on South Asian collections and the Caribbean collection which represent opportunities to work with heterogeneous material types which are of importance to the UK and beyond. I really look forward to the outcomes of this project but was especially pleased to see that the reimagined descriptive workflows project is being used to benchmark the scope of activities specifically in the three areas of focus organizational shifts, operational workflows, professional and personal development. And in summing up reimagined descriptive workflows also provided a through line for the IFLA 2023 satellite conference empire indigeneity and colonial heritage collections organized by the IFLA rare books and special collections section together with the indigenous matter section. The reimagined descriptive workflows report was cited by several presenters and also provided a through line for discussions at the meeting. My colleague Titsia Vanderwerf blogged about the conference and noted that the recommendations from the report that gained traction and that was also noted as being most challenging is to address systemic changes to transform the profession at its core. She also notes a quote that resonated with her during the conference is to think of disruption as caring and I really love this idea that we can be critical and caring about our profession when acting as disruptors. And I want to close my presentation today with the words from the great Dorothy Berry. We always have opportunities as we are moving along in our work when we don't know what we don't know. We can take the opportunity to stop and learn. Thank you very much. OK, perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And I'm really honored to follow my friend and colleague Mary Lee Prophet and the work that we did with reimagined descriptive workflows. I think really helped to set the stage. So that's a little bit about where I'm from and you can see the medicine line borders to here in the United States. And I really believe and I've been taught by my elders that knowing our history and who we are informs our present and gives us direction to the future. I'm also want to acknowledge the elders and current elders and elders that have walked on and future elders that are part of my generational learning. And I'm going to hope that Stacy can unmute and introduce herself as well. Hello, everyone. Sorry, I'm not there in the room. So I'm Dr. Stacy Allison Cassin. I'm an assistant professor at the Hose University. I'm here in Kvokchuk, also known as Halifax in Nova Scotia, which is also Big Maggi, so it's the land of the Mi'kmaq people. And I'm originally from Thunder Bay, Ontario, and I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I live for a long time in Toronto, so some of you may know me. I was an academic librarian at York University for some time and now I'm here in Halifax and I'm a citizen of the Métis Nation of Ontario and my kinship connections are to Georgian Bay and up through the historic Northwest. So I won't show you all these pictures, but that's a picture of me, my dad and Thunder Bay, some of my ancestors and my daughter holding some sand from Lake Superior. And I think I forgot to say that I'm the university librarian at the University of Fraser Valley, which is located in Stolo Tumuk, otherwise known as the Fraser Valley outside of Vancouver and our main campus or our largest campuses in Abbotsford, British Columbia. So I do want to say that this is a project of NICLA, which was established as a not-for-profit, although it was a community of practice prior to that in February 2022. And part of the impetus for this work that we're doing is really from the mentorship and leadership of our elder, Dr. Jean Joseph, who has went to Tuna and Aledene and she gave an address out to the sorting libraries out, which was held at SFU Harbor Center, which is in Vancouver, in Musqueam, Squamish and Slewa-Tooth territory in their lands. And it was really to say that one of the most basic acts of respect and recognition is for human beings to be known by your name. So she called, she charged us with letting people be known by our names, and that really is kind of one of the things that we focus on a lot. So although this project that we're going to be speaking about is relatively new, this work has been going on for quite some time. And I mean, it's the way back in 1974, 50 years ago, Brian Deere, librarian from Kanagahaga, who developed the Brian Deere classification system, which some of you may know, which was also adopted. You can see here at UBCIC, at Wewha Library and many other organizations. And then we move through to, this will be a very, very brief overview of a quite a long timeline. But with 2017, with the CFLA publication of the Truth and Reconciliation Report, it's really where a lot of work started across the country, trying to collaborate on creating change in subject headings and classification. So in Canada, and I'm sure that it's this colonial experience has been replicated in many other places, including the United States. But in Canada specifically, it was the Indian Act, which included the prohibition to hold our potlatches ceremonies or any kind of traditional ceremony until 1951. Therefore, much of our tangible and intangible knowledge was removed from the communities and really with a lot of great gratefulness to library archives and other traditional repositories as well as museums played a central role in gathering that knowledge of what they thought was dying culture. And so it's often known as salvage anthropology, but we have some of our earliest recordings and written records in some of these cultural memory institutions. So a lot of cultural memory institutions have become really important places for reclamation and intergenerational transfer of indigenous knowledges. And so doing this work within the context of cultural memory institutions is extremely important. So what part of what happened in Canada is that over the last decade, we've seen really substantive movement related to indigenous people, knowledge and information. And I really believe that the catalyst for this change was the TRC report and 94 calls to action that came down in 2015. And I think that I'm just going to go quickly because I realize we're a little bit out of time, but the Truth and Reconciliation Committee report recommendation number two was transferred from the former CLA indigenous network and that includes seeking direction from indigenous people on the proper protocols and access restrictions or access to their indigenous knowledge within that. This was also highlighted in one of the recommendations number five, which is to decolonize access and classification. And I think I just need to say why the CLA of CAB Truth and Reconciliation Committee's report was important was because it was answering the calls to action for libraries and other cultural memory institutions in Canada. And there was 45 people from across Canada that I was privileged to chair in making these recommendations. And I'll let Stacey talk about her. So go read the report if you have not. So out of that report, and Ms. Mills mentioning, was struck a committee and one of the working groups was focused on subject headings and classification. And through that work, we developed the First Nations Métis and Inuit Indigenous Hontology, which was our first, our first crack at this sort of question and it was published on July, sorry, July, June 19th, June 19th, June 21st. Now I'm like, it's late here, I'm a bit confused. It was an indigenous people's day in 2019. Oh my goodness, I know. So, and developed kind of in a, or published in a kind of draft form. And so really became the basis of the work that we're going to be talking about next. And really that what we came to realize through this work and is that modifying the terms by themselves is not enough. That doesn't really change the system itself. If we're just worried about changing the word, so changing the heading, we're not actually changing the system itself. So we asked people to join us in imagining the creation of respectful framework of descriptors and identifiers. And we believe that this is really part of leaving an imprint of reference for all others in the way that we organize our information because often many underrepresented and diverse communities are often referred to in stereotypical language that's antiquated and sometimes even in slur words. And the, I guess, a concern for many of us from the First Nations, Métis and Inuit communities in Canada, otherwise known as indigenous are is that this would subconsciously create a bias towards many of these diverse and marginalized communities. So we want to thank our seed funders because we did receive seed funding. And that phase was from January 2023 to June 2024 of which we will be talking a little bit more about now. So instead of just focusing on the terms themselves, we really conceived of this project as being a platform that is a national system for indigenous terminologies for youth across multiple domains, not just libraries, but also archives and museums, government, all kinds of applications anywhere where terminology is needed. And really thinking about ways that we can support this work with again, not just the terms, but how do we actually formulate and support the creation of structured vocabularies. And then with that along again, because we're thinking about the systemic issues that the United Nations declaration on the rights of indigenous people is a framework through which we can do this work for developing both the terms, the governance, the protocols and also the technologies that we will choose to use. So some of the things that we talked about when we did, and we'll get to that with the seed funding that we were able to work with shift collective on doing deep listening with many of the people who have been involved in this work in Canada, both elders and senior practitioners. And we really said that this is the time has passed for people to speak for us. So we're all about self determination and we want to be called by the names that we call ourselves. So to be able to have that ability to be able to call ourselves by our own name is very important. And so the basis for a lot of the work that we do is really what people refer to as the four hours, but I always say it's really intuitive relationships that indigenous people create with each other and with with other nations and other peoples is based on respect, responsibility, reverence for each other, for other people and their ways of knowing and reciprocity, which is a very key principles within the communities. And alongside this, so again, thinking about how we want to work across different domains is ways to work in a respectful way. So having community agreements and principles of collaboration. And also so that the work of indigenous peoples are recognized within this work that the indigenous knowledge is cited and that project development work should be acknowledged and cited appropriately. So often we know that this field, there's a lot of unsung, I guess, maintainers and people who do things that don't necessarily get get the recognition. So really thinking about that as a grounding principle. So some of our and then also go ahead. And then part of that is building relationships, for example, with the repertoire of a dad material, which is RBM, which is the French subject headings. And then we're also involved in other projects like a partnership development grant focused on link data and cultural data ecosystems, as well as looking at other similar vocabularies like the homosaurus. Thank you. I always get Stacy to do that slide and I just forgot about that because I don't speak French. So and not because I didn't try, but I have that ability. But I just wanted to talk a little bit about phase one and the seed funding. So it allowed us to hire a full time project and men to facilitate some meetings and launch the advisory group and work towards a project plan. And also to work on grant applications to fund part two, it did not include the launching of the platform. So this has been our core project team from the very beginning. So Caitlin Horrell, she was with Library and Archives Canada and seconded now to University of Ottawa, Bruno LeMay, who works for the Department of Canadian Heritage and our strategic leads for the seed funding phase have been Sam Cronk and community consultations. Samantha Dokus, who's from Dokus First Nation, who both work with inclusive heritage. And then our student research assistant has been Drew Fitzgerald, who is from the Métis Nation of Alberta. So in this project, we have two advisory bodies. So the first is the Indigenous Advisory Circle established in May last year, almost a year ago now. And we have a technical working group that was established also almost a year ago now in June 2023. So we knew that we would have we have some amazing people who are who are working with us, both elders and some senior practitioners who work from every nation from across coast to coast to coast down to our medicine line in the south. And we are really honored to work with some of these people. We know that there will be an ebb and flow where people are maybe not able to join us. And we've had some people become too busy or not able to physically do this anymore. But we're really honored to have the people that we did at the very beginning to be able to do our deep listening sessions. And I'll just turn to the technical working group. So then we have a very large technical working group of a lot of really amazing people who work in different areas like metadata and data management, specifically on vocabularies. So we're really have been really thrilled to have all of these people join us in this work. And we want to thank their institutions because we did request that they would be that they would be given the time to be able to do this work so it doesn't continue to happen off the side of people's deaths. And we were fortunate enough to be able to work with shift collective who we'd worked with on reimagining descriptive workflows to do deep listening with our indigenous advisory circle on the 16th and 17th in 2023, which really helped to consolidate some of the strategic areas and project goals for us. So that was very valuable. So our overarching goals that emerge from some of these sessions are really to center community voices, build relationships and governance structures and use prototypes to bolster community design. So really again, thinking about that going beyond just changing a term. And so the project components include I won't read all of this, but a digital platform to support tools and workflows, protocol workflows. So again, the tricky part always is making sure that you you're using a term and you understand where that term comes from and sort of the community part of those terminology usage and documentation and learning materials, including thinking about how we create a multi generational community of practice. So some of the objectives for the prototyping is to have a really trying to do the prototype by using a small sets of community created vocabularies or terminology. So really, going back, I think to what Mary Lee was talking about about really making sure that we think about context when we when we talk about vocabularies instead of sort of universals, working with the Indigenous Advisory Circle to consider governance and relationships. And there's those four R's that Camille was mentioning. And then to create prototypes to identify and test the technology stack as well. So just in conclusion, what do we hope to give future generations but love and respect towards each other and hopefully working towards a better and more respectful future with others. And I think I might have missed a slide there, but that's okay. We are very honored to have received a Melon Grant for the next phase of the work. And we were able to funnel that through Dell Housing University with support in in partnership with both Nicola and the University of Fraser Valley. So it's been wonderful to have their support and and to be able to move forward with that. But I think we really are we're really grateful and excited about the work and our gathering in the next month or two to be able to really lay the foundation for a lot of this work. And with that, we're just going to say, I would say Madhu or Masichu, I think we would say McGwitch, Mercy, and I'm going to say thank you after that. And now we're just going to open it up for questions. We may be just about at time here. Apologies for the meltdown with the technology. I will put my slides on sked so you can see them. See the slides that you didn't get to see. But I think Camille and I are happy to stick around or we can take some take some time for questions. But if people need to bolt for the door, we understand that as well. Clem, did you have a question? Come on up. Thank you. Very interesting project. We're trying to do some of this stuff in Hawaii. Was there any work in this on rethinking classification as opposed to just description because much of the oppression of marginalized peoples comes from the classification system like Library of Congress or Dewey. So I've actually done quite a bit of work in classification. And I think we know, maybe I don't have the mic on. So there's been quite a bit of work done in classification systems. We know that the Brian Deere classification system was a records management system that was then adopted at the Union of the Indian Chiefs by Dr. Jean Joseph and Kelty McCall. And then it was adopted again for an academic library at Weeba Library. From that adaptation in 2017, we did a reclass at UBCIC and then created the Indigenous Materials classification system, which was used at the National Center for Truth and Reconciliation and the National Film Board. So there's a good example at Indigenous Cinema. But I think the biggest issue with that is that we have to have the terms correct to be able to create that ontology or vocabularies, control vocabularies to be able to do the classification system. So even though we do have it coming from an Indigenous worldview and a number of other things, we still want to check back because some of the names within the classification system are not correct. They're not out. We would refer to ourselves. And so really to the advice that we've gotten from many elders is that in this field is that we would get the actual terminology correct before we actually put that other out. But there's many examples that's been adopted, many adaptations across Canada. But I think probably one of the easier ones to look up is the National Film Board's Indigenous Cinema. I think that that work is very important and critical to move forward with. But I think we have to have the terms correct before we actually put out something that can be interactive for other people to be able to use. So I can say Rachel Frick would probably be a better person to have a hallway conversation with this about this. But I know at OCLC we are looking at Dewey and what we can do with Dewey. It is, you know, it is, it's not just a matter of flipping terms. It is really the whole, the whole hierarchy. It's the whole kit and caboodle. But it's not just that. You're really talking about the physical movement of materials across the library. So it really does fall into the category of wicked problems. If you are a small school library or a smaller public library, moving your collections around to a more appropriate representation of knowledge that reflects, you know, the truth of your community is, is, can be a smaller and more manageable undertaking. But if you're talking about a very large collection, I think that recognizing the, the physical costs that are involved in, in moving, you know, physically moving the collection because it's not just about what's contained in, in these books, but where are they physically placed within the library? I think that that's something that we're interested in, you know, as a wicked problem in, in exploring in, in more depth, but also it's not something to be taken forward lightly, as I'm sure anybody who's dug into classification understands. So I think one of the biggest issues with classification is that in E 98, you have all really a lot of indigenous materials for coming from an indigenous world view, but it also is their portrayed in history, like as if we're not here anymore. And it's really detrimental to many people going to look for themselves that we're portrayed as no, no longer being here. We're a part of history. And I think that's really critical. The other thing is that it's not actually divided accurately by nation. And so you'll see it all mixed up because it's done by author. So it isn't like all the Hawaiian stuff is in one place or all the Teltan or Métis stuff is in one place. So, and then it's not actually, doesn't have yet divided into things that are really important, like governance or education or lands or things like that. So it's really, I think, marginalizing people even more because it's not reflecting us as nations and our fullness of our society. So I think that's very critical in the work moving forward, but I do think it's important that we recognize that it's a big challenge for many people and for huge libraries, especially. And then we do have a good example within smaller libraries, both at WIWA Library and I think in the Hawaiian studies section that we went to in Hawaii at the University of Hawaii. Thank you again for hosting us, Clem, for the International Indigenous Librarians Forum. But I think that's part of where we need to go within our academic institutions. So those are really good examples of places where we might want to move towards. So I think I'll go ahead and wrap us up. Thank you for joining us. I'm hoping us not be lonely in this work.